Jakson Lost with Seth Nesin: Deep Thoughts About Smoke Monsters, Unsatisfying Endings, and the Ethics of Storytelling täydellinen litterointi

who you thought they were. 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.400 In some ways, everyone was lying. 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.360 There was there was a lot of really, really interesting stuff. 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.680 I mentioned offline uh to Seth that I loved the character of Walt. 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:26.240 He was a young boy who was Michael's son, who he had been living with his mother. 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:32.160 And I can't remember, did the mother pass away or for some reason, uh like yeah. 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:37.519 Michael hadn't seen him since he was a baby, and Michael had to like take custody of him again. 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:53.920 And we'd seen from backstory that Michael had been so excited for this baby, and then like and fought tooth and nail to keep him in his life, and then it's been 10 years, and and he hasn't seen this child, and they're trying to rebuild this relationship, and that just pulled at my heartstrings. 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.120 There's a series of numbers that are like magical. 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.720 Um Hurley, is that the name of the uh the curly haired guy? 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:01.600 Hurley, yeah. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:02.319 Hurley. 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:03.680 I really liked him as well. 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.560 Yeah, so there's there's a bunch of stuff going on. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.480 Oh, then there's uh Evangeline Lily, is that who the actress's name? 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:16.639 Yeah, we find out early on that there's a someone on the plane who's being escorted by like can't think of the word. 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:17.439 Air Marshall. 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:18.879 Air Marshall, thank you. 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:30.240 It's uh this guy who seems like a criminal, and you find out early on that it's it's the Evangeline Lily because she's like, you know, conventionally attractive, slender, like, oh, look at me, lady. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.399 Anyway, so there's a lot in there. 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:36.800 I also part of the reason why we stopped watching it, there were two reasons we stopped watching it. 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:43.839 I was teaching, it was not a great time for my mental health, and I kind of just lost interest in a lot of things I was interested in. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:55.519 Also, they kind of wrote Walt off the show, and I lost a little bit of interest, but I understood why, because child actors being what they are and you know, filming schedules being what they are. 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:01.519 And then I also was hearing like online people talking about like, oh man, they have no idea what they're doing. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:03.680 They're making it up as they go along about the showrunners. 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:05.360 And so I kind of lost interest there too. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:06.879 So that's that's what's in my head. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:08.720 That's a lot more than I expected, to be honest. 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:10.399 You didn't know we watched it. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:11.120 Okay. 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:20.639 So, Seth, you know, we talked about you coming on the show and you were weighing a bunch of different things, and you decided this is the show that you wanted to talk about. 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:21.600 Like, why? 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:22.959 What's at stake for you? 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.800 Like, what's in it for you to talk about this show on Deep Thoughts? 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.759 Well, Tracy, I'm glad you asked me that question. 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:36.879 Because, you know, the fate of the entire world rests on me appearing on this podcast. 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:44.879 And I really, I really can't explain how or why we're all under deep duress. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:52.319 But no, by the end of the episode, if if listeners stay tuned in for the entire episode, some of these mysteries will be revealed. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.240 Uh that's a very Lostian kind of dynamic. 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.720 That's that's the promise you give me over again all the time. 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.000 This is very important. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:03.439 We can't explain why. 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:04.240 Whatever. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:10.720 My genuine answer is I have been ranting about this show since the finale in 2010. 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:24.560 Like no show or movie or anything has ever made me feel the way this show made me feel, like I was a sucker, like I had been duped or manipulated, right? 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:26.959 Or like I was the victim of fraud. 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:36.959 And I've been kind of grappling with that ever since, and I've been complaining to everybody I know about it, but I've always thought, like, huh, you know what? 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.199 I should go back and watch this show. 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.920 Because it turns out like it's very loved. 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.360 Like people on the internet are crazy about this show. 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.519 It's like it's on all these lists of like the best shows ever. 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:56.800 And I don't know, I don't like to dismiss things out of hand and feel like, you know, it took place over six years. 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.240 Maybe I was forgetting stuff. 00:07:58.399 --> 00:07:59.040 I don't know. 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:04.639 I always intended, like, I'm gonna go back and watch this show so I can be more informed about my rant. 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:13.680 And so this gave me a great opportunity to force myself to watch 121 episodes of this show in advance of this podcast. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:15.759 So did you really rewatch the whole episode? 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:17.360 I rewatched the whole series. 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:18.079 Oh my gosh. 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:23.439 I can't say that I will be the best guest you've ever had, but I will I am the best prepared guest guest. 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.040 I'm the most

prepared guest. 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.120 Yeah, I I I put in the work. 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:29.920 We need to mock up an award for you. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:31.839 Yeah, I'm not a slacker. 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.120 Seth understands the assignment. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.240 Exactly. 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:41.600 To be fair, I'm pretty sure Joanna watched the entire I feel like I have to say this because she listens. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.879 It's just she she rewatched the Veronica Mars as well. 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:47.919 But okay, yes, Seth took it very seriously. 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.200 That that we love that. 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.039 Take the work seriously, not yourself. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:51.519 Okay. 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:53.200 You heard what I have in my head. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:57.759 Tell me, like, what do I need to know about the show for us to have the conversation you want to have? 00:08:58.080 --> 00:08:58.399 Okay. 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:00.960 There's so much insane stuff that happens on the show. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:11.840 Like, I can't possibly like explain six seasons of stuff, but I will do my best to briefly tell you the gist of it and like what we need to know for the for just for our discussions. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.679 Like you said, the first episode is actually amazing. 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:17.200 Like the pilot is incredible. 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:18.960 It's one of the best shows I've ever seen. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.519 It really comes off like a movie. 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:35.679 It starts out with one of the characters, Jack, like there's a close-up on his eye, and his eye opens, and then it pans out, and he's like in the jungle and like confused and disoriented. 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:54.240 And then he he gets up and he goes to the beach, and it turns out he was on a plane that crashed on this beach, and there's just chaos, and people are running around and screaming, and like the engine from the plane is actually still going and somebody gets sucked into the engine. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:04.720 It's just like this super cool thing that, like, oh, oh my god, we've got this dynamic where these people are stranded on an island. 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:16.960 And it's at the time, like Survivor, the TV show, was very popular, strict, you know, stranded on an island, the movie Castaway with Tom Hanks stranded on an island. 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:19.600 Like that, this was clearly the dynamic they were looking for. 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.559 Like, ooh, people like stranded on an island stuff. 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:40.720 We learned right in the first episode, they get in touch with the pilot who's off, and the pilot tells them, oh, wait, they're really gonna have trouble finding us on this island because our radio went out hours earlier, and then we changed direction, and so like they're gonna be looking in the wrong place. 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.759 We

might, you might be on this island for a long time, who knows? 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:50.080 And then, of course, the pilot gets eaten by a mysterious monster that we don't really understand yet. 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:57.279 As the show progresses, this is all still the first episode that this is a very strange island, a very mysterious island. 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:11.039 This monster that we don't actually see in the beginning is like running around, causing havoc, like the trees like moving around, like the monster is going quickly through this thing, but we don't know what it is or why it's doing what it's doing. 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:20.720 And then, uh as Emily talked about, there's a scene where there's like an animal jumps out and they shoot it, and then it turns out it's a polar bear and they're on a tropical island. 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.960 Like, why is there a polar bear on this tropical island? 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.879 Wow, we're in this really weird place. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:31.440 And in fact, the last episode, last line of the of the first episode is something like, Where are we? 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:32.879 Like, what is this place? 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:33.440 or something. 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:40.080 Like clearly the number one mystery of the show is going to be understanding like, what is this place? 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:41.200 Like, why are they there? 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.080 Like, there's all these mis, how did these people survive? 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:55.440 Actually, show the plane falling apart in mid-air, thousands of miles up, but yet somehow 40-something people survive and they're on the beach, right? 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:03.840 And of these 40-something people, there are, I think, 12 at the beginning that are really focused on. 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:04.399 Right. 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:10.000 It's kind of this, it's this large cast, but there's 12, then there's all these others that are kind of like extras. 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:15.440 And there's some jokes about, like, there's these people who are with them the whole time that we don't even know who they are, whatever. 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:20.399 The show goes on and they keep introducing more crazy shit, right? 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:22.799 And more characters get built out. 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:28.240 Well, it turns out some people who are on the plane in the back half of the plane actually lived. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.960 And we find them later in the series. 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:41.120 And then there's this crazy French woman who's been on the island for 15 years and has never been able to get off the island, and she's running around causing trouble. 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:49.519 And then there's this whole community of people that they start calling the others, who are like living kind of in the suburbs. 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.799 Like they have like regular houses and like a book club. 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:59.840 But then when they interact with the survivors, they have to pretend that they're like living in the jungle for some reason. 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:01.840 They one of them has a fake beard. 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.600 The whole thing is very bizarre. 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:04.559 They keep going. 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:14.559 There's more and more, as time goes on, there's this scientific organization called the Dharma Initiative that had been on the island at one time, but are no longer there. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:15.919 We don't really know why. 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.080 And then all this stuff happens. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.080 There's this rich guy who's like trying to control the island. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.919 There's just all this, they're just introducing all this stuff over time. 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:33.600 By the time we get to like the middle of the show, like season three, they start throwing around this name Jacob. 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:44.639 There's this somebody named Jacob, because these the others who are really hostile and like are doing all these horrible things, like kidnapping babies and like all this crap. 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.960 We think the leader is this guy named Ben, who's like this slimy guy. 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:59.759 But it turns out that Ben reveals to us that the other that actually he's just following the direction of some entity named Jacob who we don't see. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:08.159 And then, so Jacob then becomes like a really primary part of the show, because Jacob is really pulling all the strings. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.120 And this is really going off the rails. 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:24.879 I don't even know if anybody's following any of this, but like at one point, some of the survivors actually manage to get off the island, but then they have to come back to the island to save the people who are on the island, still left on the island. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:29.360 And we finally meet Jacob like near the end of the show. 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:31.120 We're like on season five. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:39.279 Oh, also, Ben reveals at one point like he's never actually even seen Jacob, which and none of the others have seen Jacob. 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:47.679 They Ben's just making this shit up that Jacob's telling them to do, but it turns I don't even know, like, how did they even know Jacob was there? 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:49.200 If none of them ever saw Jacob. 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.559 The whole thing is bizarre. 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.200 But but but then we do meet Jacob? 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:54.080 Like Yes. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.159 So season five, we meet Jacob. 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.080 We hear Jacob's backstory, which is also insane. 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.000 Jacob has a brother who doesn't even have a name. 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:09.360 They just call him the man in black because he wears black, right? 00:15:10.080 -->

00:15:13.279 And he's not Johnny Cash. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:15.519 It's not Johnny Cash. 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:22.000 The show, I wish it was Johnny Cash, but you know, this is not like Gilligan's Island where the Harold Globe Trotters show up. 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.120 This is a different island. 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:24.879 Johnny Cash is not there. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:30.879 So anyway, yeah, Jacob's brother, the man in black, he hates the island. 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:32.480 He wants to destroy the island. 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.960 Jacob wants to protect the island. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.279 Turns out the island has magical property. 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.759 All these magical properties of the island, which I haven't even gotten into all this stuff that goes on there, are towards some larger purpose. 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:51.519 Jacob and the man in black have some disagreement about the nature of humanity and whether people are good or bad. 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.120 And Jacob is trying to prove that people are good and the man in black. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:07.600 It's like a very Hobbes versus Locke philosopher kind of thing, which is crazy also because like the show is very high-minded. 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.200 There actually is a character named John Locke on the show. 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.039 And then there's the crazy French woman is named Rousseau. 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:20.240 And like, like there's like they really so they want you to make the philosophical connection. 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.639 They want you to think this is like a show that is really well thought out and brilliant. 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:29.840 I mean, I haven't even talked about the time travel, the what you think are parallel universe. 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:35.440 What ends up happening is at one point there's like this divide. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:37.919 In the first few seasons, it's kind of cool. 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:39.600 They do all these flashbacks. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:47.519 So you see all the survivors' lives before they get on the island, and you learn their backstories, and you really get invested in their stories and everything like that. 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.279 But then they run out of shit to say about the survivors that are there. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.799 That's another reason why I think they keep introducing more characters. 00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:01.759 But then they start doing flash forwards and they show what the characters do after they get off the island. 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:04.720 So you learn, oh, some of these characters are going to get off the island. 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.960 And then I think they run out of stuff with that. 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:14.160 And so then they do what they call flash sideways, which yes, insane. 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:22.480 You think it's like this is a parallel universe in which the plane never crashed, and this is what would happen. 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:29.359 But then it turns out the flash sideways we find at the very end is not really that at all. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:31.359 It's like purgatory. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:38.799 It's like when all these characters die, at whatever time they die, they go to these flash sideways where they can all meet up. 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:48.720 And then once they're all dead and they meet up in this purgatory, the very last episode they all meet in a church and then they move on to the afterlife. 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:53.519 If you are confused by this, like that is normal. 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:57.279 Please don't take any offense to like the whole thing is crazy. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:13.680 Is it the case that they all actually died in the plane crash and that all of this was This is a common misconception that people have, the showrunners have disavowed and that losty, you know, people who are really into lost are like, oh, this person wasn't paying attention. 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:15.440 They think the people were dead the whole time. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.000 It seems like the people, according to the showrunners, they were not dead the whole time. 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.599 The thing, the events that happened on the island actually happened. 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.400 But once they died, whether that be on the island or off the island, then they go to this purgatory place. 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:30.880 I see. 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.480 And then they eventually will all move on together. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:35.200 I see. 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:37.680 Does everybody go to this purgatory place? 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:40.720 Is it just because they were on the island that they were in the purgatory place? 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.200 A couple of people in the church weren't even on the island. 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.960 There were just other characters on the show. 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.400 Some that Walt and Michael didn't get to be in the church. 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:49.680 So I don't know. 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.799 Maybe some of the whole thing is bizarre and unexplained. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:59.119 None of the other like random extras who die throughout the series, they're not in the purgatory place. 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.160 Like it's all not very well thought out. 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:17.680 But didn't I mean from the portion that I watched, like the part of the thing that that was exciting and interesting about it with the flashbacks, it felt like it was like faded that all of these people would end up on this airplane. 00:19:44.629 --> 00:19:45.190 Yes. 00:19:45.509 --> 00:19:48.710 This is just a really manipulative thing. 00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:49.909 Let's let's get into it. 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:51.109 I think we can get into now. 00:19:51.269 --> 00:19:56.549 I think I've described enough that we can get into it because what Emily just said kind of relates to a lot of

topics. 00:19:56.789 --> 00:20:03.990 So it turns out, and like the showrunners have kind of acknowledged this, like they really were just making this all up as they go along. 00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:09.990 And I want to like, people, of course, every show just gets made up as it goes along. 00:20:10.149 --> 00:20:13.269 Like that's the nature of writing a TV series. 00:20:13.430 --> 00:20:23.990 Like they don't write the whole thing first, you know, but like they didn't really know what was going to happen as they were writing it. 00:20:24.149 --> 00:20:33.589 And they were introducing these mysteries that they actually did not know what the answer to the mystery was when they were writing it. 00:20:33.750 --> 00:20:43.669 And that ended up causing all these problems where they're trying to make up these bullshit explanations well after the fact to try and explain the mysteries. 00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:56.149 And so, like Emily said, like in the flashbacks, there's all these indications that, like, oh, there's some greater purpose behind this whole plane crash, right? 00:20:56.230 --> 00:20:59.269 There's this, like, there is fate that's involved. 00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:11.589 There's some higher power that is that made them all get on this plane, which was going from Australia to Los Angeles, such that they would land here and something and all these events would occur. 00:21:11.829 --> 00:21:15.190 It's never clear like what that purpose is. 00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:19.269 There's some at one point they're like, Jacob brings everybody to the island. 00:21:19.430 --> 00:21:22.309 But it's like, how did Jacob bring all these people to the island? 00:21:22.389 --> 00:21:23.190 Like with his milk. 00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:28.149 He made them all go, he made them all go to Australia and then get in this plane. 00:21:28.230 --> 00:21:29.109 Like, what? 00:21:29.269 --> 00:21:30.869 Like, how did this actually work? 00:21:31.029 --> 00:21:34.309 And so, yeah, this is just indic indicative. 00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:40.869 But at the time you're watching it, right, you're seeing these what seem like clues, right? 00:21:41.029 --> 00:21:49.750 You're seeing these things, like, oh, this is like evidence of what the larger mystery, oh my God, this happened and this happened. 00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:59.829 And at the time that the show was on, this was like the beginnings of internet forums and podcasts and stuff. 00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:12.389 And people were like obsessively debating and discussing all these mysteries of the show that turned out not to actually be genuine mysteries. 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:12.789 Right? 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:17.990 They were debating an answer to questions that there was no answer. 00:22:18.309 --> 00:22:23.269 And that's really why I felt duped in front, because I was one of those people. 00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:26.230 I was on internet forums at that time, obsessed. 00:22:27.190 --> 00:22:29.349 Discuss every time an episode would come out. 00:22:29.509 --> 00:22:30.869 What does this mean? 00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:31.589 What? 00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:38.629 There's a whole frozen donkey wheel under the island that you turn and then the island moves through time? 00:22:38.950 --> 00:22:39.349 What? 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:43.029 How does this like there's just so much insanity? 00:22:43.190 --> 00:22:47.509 Like you think, okay, we're getting evidence here, we're figuring things out. 00:22:47.669 --> 00:22:54.069 But it turns out, like each thing that they explained did not lead us to a conclusion. 00:22:54.149 --> 00:22:56.069 It got us further and further away. 00:22:56.230 --> 00:23:00.710 It just injected more insane mystery that could never be solved. 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:05.750 And the writers clearly had to be aware that this is what they're doing. 00:23:05.909 --> 00:23:07.269 Like they get people hooked. 00:23:07.349 --> 00:23:12.149 It's like, you know, clickbait, where they're like, oh, guess what happens next? 00:23:12.389 --> 00:23:15.430 These two characters actually are related to each other. 00:23:15.669 --> 00:23:16.069 What? 00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:17.029 Like, why? 00:23:17.509 --> 00:23:17.829 What? 00:23:18.069 --> 00:23:24.149 Like that into, you know, and so it turns out that the whole thing felt like a fraud. 00:23:24.309 --> 00:23:32.629 Like we were being induced into watching this show under false pretenses that we were doing some kind of puzzle. 00:23:32.869 --> 00:23:37.349 And the puzzle didn't actually have a solution. 00:23:37.589 --> 00:23:37.990 Right? 00:23:38.149 --> 00:23:39.190 There was no picture. 00:23:39.349 --> 00:23:45.349 When you've put all the pieces together, maybe there were a bunch of missing pieces and they don't even fit together, and then it doesn't even make a picture. 00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:54.230 Like like the puzzle maker just threw all the leftover pieces from other puzzles into a box and it didn't actually make anything. 00:23:54.789 --> 00:23:55.190 Yes. 00:23:55.430 --> 00:23:59.589 So, all right, we've already talked way too much, just try to lay the landscape. 00:23:59.669 --> 00:24:10.950 We got to get to some like what I came here for, which is because I think you mentioned in the beginning, like I'm high school coach of my ethics bowl team. 00:24:11.029 --> 00:24:12.549 So I'm like into ethics, right? 00:24:12.710 --> 00:24:13.589 This is my thing. 00:24:13.829 --> 00:24:30.869 And what's really what it really got me thinking about is do creators, do artists actually have ethical duties towards their audiences in the same way that we like, you know, we think like lawyers, there's ethics for lawyers and accountants and bankers. 00:24:31.509 --> 00:24:34.629 Every profession has its own professional ethics. 00:24:35.029 --> 00:24:38.549 But like, I feel like we give artists kind of a pass. 00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:41.190 Like creative types, you do whatever you want. 00:24:41.349 --> 00:24:46.950 Like you're

there's no, like, yeah, you can't, like, I'm not talking about like Michael Jackson or P. 00:24:47.190 --> 00:24:49.829 Diddy or whatever, like outside stuff. 00:24:49.990 --> 00:25:04.230 And I'm not really talking about there actually was an ethics bull case a couple years ago about the Jeffrey Dahmer series on Netflix and whether that was whether it was wrong to do that because it kind of glamorized Jeffrey Dahmer. 00:25:04.389 --> 00:25:04.549 Right. 00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:07.589 And, you know, was hot Jeffrey Dahmer, sexy Jeffrey Dahmer. 00:25:08.069 --> 00:25:08.629 That's a different thing. 00:25:08.710 --> 00:25:08.789 Right. 00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:09.589 That's all different. 00:25:09.750 --> 00:25:12.470 I'm really talking about like what it, yeah. 00:25:12.549 --> 00:25:15.909 No, I think the way that you named it as professional ethics is really, really interesting. 00:25:16.069 --> 00:25:17.589 I think that that sums it up. 00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:27.990 Like you're talking about what the creator owes to their consumers, which is also, we talk often on the show about what creators owe to their characters. 00:25:28.149 --> 00:25:32.789 Like that is a thing that we have talked about several times on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit. 00:25:32.950 --> 00:25:38.549 I don't know if we have spoken explicitly about what the creator owes to their audience. 00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:39.430 I'm excited. 00:25:39.589 --> 00:25:56.389 I mean, we've talked about creators needing to be responsive, like when we talk about Steven Spielberg and Jaws and like other cases where we've talked about like creators who did or didn't listen to like Steven Spielberg listened to fans and like made changes to Jaws to make it better. 00:25:56.629 --> 00:25:57.430 What's his face? 00:25:57.589 --> 00:26:00.789 George Lucas was like, fuck y'all, I know better. 00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:03.430 And now Greedo shot first. 00:26:03.909 --> 00:26:11.990 So, you know, we have talked about that to a certain degree about like being responsive to fans, but I think you're gonna get at something a little bit deeper. 00:26:12.149 --> 00:26:13.589 So let's let's go there. 00:26:13.750 --> 00:26:19.829 Like, what did the Lost Showrunners owe to you as one of their forum-loving fans? 00:26:20.230 --> 00:26:20.470 Right. 00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:23.589 So, first of all, Lost did cater to fans. 00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:36.710 Like in the later seasons, like there's this, there's this thing, I forgot episode uh season three or four, where they take a couple of like the extra, these characters who we don't know, and they start injecting them into the story. 00:26:36.789 --> 00:26:44.230 There, these characters named Nikki and Paolo, and all of a sudden they're like, okay, Nikki and Paulo are part of the crew that we're gonna care about now. 00:26:44.389 --> 00:26:50.950 And they tell the Nicki and Paolo backstory, and like they get really invested, and then the fans are like, What the f? 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:54.309 We don't care about Nikki and Paolo, these are dumb characters. 00:26:54.470 --> 00:27:04.549 There was a big outrage on the forums, and the showrunner just killed Nicki and Paulo, and they buried them alive just because they're like, Well, nobody likes Nicki and Paolo. 00:27:04.710 --> 00:27:05.750 The show was trying to be a very good thing. 00:27:05.909 --> 00:27:06.789 There's poor actors. 00:27:07.909 --> 00:27:08.710 Yeah, I know. 00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:10.309 It was whatever. 00:27:10.549 --> 00:27:15.669 But the question is real, the more you dig, the more complicated it kind of gets. 00:27:15.909 --> 00:27:18.710 Because my first instinct was like, hmm. 00:27:19.430 --> 00:27:24.470 Artists have a duty not to lie and manipulate their audiences. 00:27:24.869 --> 00:27:26.789 That seems like, okay, cool. 00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:28.869 Like that sort of makes sense. 00:27:29.349 --> 00:27:36.069 I know where you're going with, oh Tracy, you you're giving me the expression, because I mean, all art manipulates. 00:27:36.309 --> 00:27:37.509 Like, that's why we like it. 00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:38.230 Right? 00:27:38.470 --> 00:27:41.349 Okay, I have a couple of this is making me think of a couple of things. 00:27:41.509 --> 00:27:44.149 So, yeah, I grew up reading Agatha Christie. 00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:48.789 Like, she was the first, like, like non-made for kids books that I read. 00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:54.149 I am in awe of her ability to write such tight mysteries. 00:27:54.389 --> 00:27:58.629 I know she's pulling the wool over my eyes and still not see how she can do it. 00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:05.430 Even though I have been a mystery reader for so long that it is very hard to surprise me. 00:28:05.589 --> 00:28:13.509 I've learned that with her process, what she did was she would she came up with the characters, she probably often would come up with what the murder was. 00:28:13.669 --> 00:28:18.230 She would have all of these characters, she would put in like, you know, different clues. 00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:20.549 She wouldn't know who done it until the end. 00:28:20.789 --> 00:28:21.349 Herself. 00:28:21.669 --> 00:28:22.149 What? 00:28:22.389 --> 00:28:22.710 Yeah. 00:28:22.869 --> 00:28:24.710 And then she would then go back. 00:28:24.950 --> 00:28:33.029 Part of the reason why it worked so well is because the clues she was laying, red all of them were red herrings. 00:28:33.190 --> 00:28:35.990 All of them were red herrings because she didn't know herself until the end. 00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:37.509 And then she would go back and clean up. 00:28:37.669 --> 00:28:38.549 That was her process. 00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:40.629 That's the benefit of writing a book. 00:28:40.950 --> 00:28:45.029 Because you can go back and you know, and like reconfigure it. 00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:49.669 Whereas a show that's on for six years, like you can't go back and fix all the stuff. 00:28:49.909 --> 00:29:01.269 So that's

what I'm thinking is part of what when you're saying what artists owe to their audience, because when you writing like any art, you create for yourself first. 00:29:01.669 --> 00:29:05.430 So like I have no doubt that the lost showrunners were entertaining themselves first. 00:29:05.750 --> 00:29:06.869 That's what you have to do. 00:29:07.109 --> 00:29:11.829 I mean, before you get it out in the world, you have to, you have to write it first and entertain yourself. 00:29:12.069 --> 00:29:24.230 Part of the problem with TV shows, especially TV shows in America, where the business model is to squeeze every single drop of profit out of it, is to keep it going as long as possible. 00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:32.389 And so you end up breaking that contract of writing for yourself first, entertaining yourself first, and completing the loop of a story. 00:29:32.629 --> 00:29:40.309 I for Family Movie Night recently, we just watched World War Z, which uh I had remembered being only okay, but actually really liked. 00:29:40.389 --> 00:29:42.629 And I went back and reread some stuff about it. 00:29:42.710 --> 00:29:47.430 And apparently Brad Pitt uh produced it as well as starred in it. 00:29:47.509 --> 00:29:50.789 Uh, he was really all in, wanted this to be great. 00:29:51.029 --> 00:29:59.509 They had actually, they shot it and then found that they didn't like the ending, and they went back and spent like$40 million to reshoot 40 minutes of the film. 00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:10.389 And there were comments at the time saying, like, isn't it amazing when you actually make a story that works instead of saying, like, we spent enough, just put it out there, see what what money we make. 00:30:10.629 --> 00:30:27.190 Some of what I'm hearing, what I feel like is going on with Lost and like with other things is like it's the pressure of art as commerce rather than I do absolutely believe that artists owe something to their to their audience. 00:30:27.269 --> 00:30:32.230 And some of that is there's like genre conventions, they must like meet those genre conventions. 00:30:32.309 --> 00:30:37.109 I love romance novels and like it is like clockwork of every few months. 00:30:37.190 --> 00:30:41.029 There's like it's so cliche, it's so formulaic, it always ends with a happy ever after. 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:43.029 I'm like, that's because that's what the genre is. 00:30:43.190 --> 00:30:49.669 Like, are you mad that like a mystery novel has a detective and a dead body? 00:30:50.069 --> 00:30:50.470 There's that. 00:30:50.629 --> 00:30:54.710 And then there's also playing fair with the rules within the world. 00:30:54.869 --> 00:30:57.109 And that sounds like Lost didn't do. 00:30:57.349 --> 00:31:00.549 Lost did not play fair with the rules within the world. 00:31:00.789 --> 00:31:06.069 But the not playing fair seems like it's part of the pressure of commerce on the artist. 00:31:06.470 --> 00:31:07.990 Well, let's get into it, Seth. 00:31:08.069 --> 00:31:09.909 Do you do you agree that those other things? 00:31:10.149 --> 00:31:14.309 The history of Lost is like this was a totally rush. 00:31:14.389 --> 00:31:19.990 The pilot was like they didn't have the pilot written at the time they were casting. 00:31:20.149 --> 00:31:22.629 Like it was like so behind schedule. 00:31:22.710 --> 00:31:26.149 It was like really like a last minute kind of thing. 00:31:26.309 --> 00:31:31.190 Some guy had an idea, some executive, like, we have to have castaways on an island. 00:31:31.269 --> 00:31:37.990 And then they had a script written, and they didn't actually like the script because the script didn't have a lot of mysteries in it. 00:31:38.069 --> 00:31:46.549 And they're like, then they bring in JJ Abrams, right, who is like hot from alias and stuff, and they're like, hey, put some mysteries in this. 00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:57.509 And uh they like are like at the last minute, they're throwing in these mysteries uh that they like haven't thought out where these mysteries are going. 00:31:57.750 --> 00:32:04.470 And also, it's 25 episodes a season of an hour-long show. 00:32:04.629 --> 00:32:09.990 Like they've got to fill up all this stuff, and they don't know how long it's going. 00:32:10.069 --> 00:32:14.309 And the people who are writing the show actually think this show is gonna tank. 00:32:14.549 --> 00:32:16.230 Nobody's gonna watch this thing. 00:32:16.389 --> 00:32:21.669 So they just start throwing in crazy mysteries, figuring we're never gonna have to solve this, it's gonna get canceled, right? 00:32:21.750 --> 00:32:27.990 Uh, but then it becomes a big hit, and the network is like, yeah, we want this show to go on forever. 00:32:28.069 --> 00:32:32.230 And they're like, wait a second, like, let's let's just do three seasons. 00:32:32.309 --> 00:32:34.789 And they're like, no, like we want it forever. 00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:42.789 And they like finally, like in the middle of the run, they decide like they figure out when it's gonna end so that they can start writing towards the ending. 00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:45.829 But the first few seasons, they had no idea. 00:32:45.909 --> 00:32:51.909 And it was the network like trying to squeeze as much at us as they could, and that really destroyed some of it. 00:32:52.069 --> 00:32:57.029 And apparently, like Damon Lindenhoff, who's the showrunner, who went out, apparently. 00:32:57.190 --> 00:32:58.230 I didn't watch these shows. 00:32:58.309 --> 00:33:02.149 Did either of you watch The Watchmen or what's the other one called? 00:33:02.309 --> 00:33:07.990 The one, it was like on HBO where like everybody disappears and there's only a small number left. 00:33:08.149 --> 00:33:08.549 Whatever. 00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:11.829 These these two shows, yeah, left uh I forgot what it's called. 00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:13.589 Left Behind is the Jesus one. 00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:15.349 There's something similar, but it's not Jesus. 00:33:15.669 --> 00:33:17.190 The vanishing or

something? 00:33:18.149 --> 00:33:20.149 I I now I'm blanking on it. 00:33:20.389 --> 00:33:30.549 So anyway, apparently, apparently, like they realized like uh they learned their lesson from Lost, and they're like, this is only gonna go two seasons, and we have it all mapped out. 00:33:30.629 --> 00:33:32.230 But Lost was not like that. 00:33:32.470 --> 00:33:35.909 Anyway, I forgot where where we were, but in any case. 00:33:36.789 --> 00:33:38.629 It's called it was called The Leftovers. 00:33:38.869 --> 00:33:40.309 The Leftovers, yeah, exactly. 00:33:40.549 --> 00:33:43.349 I read the Watchmen graphic novel, but I didn't see the show. 00:33:43.509 --> 00:33:46.950 You know, I I think let me finish your thoughts, Seth, and then I want to bring something in. 00:33:47.190 --> 00:33:51.909 I just want to say, like, it's really this is really complicated the more I think about it, though. 00:33:52.149 --> 00:34:01.750 Because even though Lost is making this all up, and even though I view it as unethical that they're like manipulating their audience to get them to watch commercials, people love this show. 00:34:01.829 --> 00:34:09.670 Like, how can you reconcile the fact that I feel like it's a fraud and they did all these bad things with the fact that all these people are on the internet saying it's the greatest show ever? 00:34:09.829 --> 00:34:11.110 Clearly, they liked it. 00:34:11.269 --> 00:34:15.269 And honestly, like, don't spread around, like, I I kind of liked it. 00:34:15.349 --> 00:34:20.230 Like, I I wouldn't have watched 121 episodes of some shows. 00:34:20.309 --> 00:34:22.070 Like, there's no way I could have gotten through that. 00:34:22.230 --> 00:34:24.630 Like, there is something enjoyable about it. 00:34:24.789 --> 00:34:26.150 What was the harm here? 00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:30.710 Did I really suffer any consequences by them breaching this contract? 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:32.150 Like, I don't know. 00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:34.470 You guys are supposed to figure this out for me. 00:34:34.950 --> 00:34:36.470 Okay, I think this is really interesting. 00:34:36.550 --> 00:34:37.910 I'm gonna put a pin in. 00:34:37.990 --> 00:34:43.110 I want to talk about The Prisoner, the 1960s or 70s British film, Bob TV show. 00:34:43.190 --> 00:34:43.830 I'm gonna bring that in. 00:34:43.910 --> 00:34:45.510 So I'm saying that so that you'll remind me, Emily. 00:34:45.670 --> 00:34:47.670 But I want to respond to what Seth just said. 00:34:47.910 --> 00:34:51.190 So I think it's the case that all art manipulates. 00:34:51.350 --> 00:34:53.030 It all like makes us feel things. 00:34:53.190 --> 00:34:56.150 That's why we like it, because it makes us feel things. 00:34:56.390 --> 00:35:00.230 And so I think that's like when we say, like, oh, it manipulated me. 00:35:00.310 --> 00:35:18.230 When I say it at least, when I feel manipulated, it's like I feel like it didn't earn it, like it didn't actually do the work to make me feel the way in like legitimate, like legitimately from the story, or I can see the strings so clearly that the craft was not good. 00:35:18.390 --> 00:35:20.310 Those are the times when I say that. 00:35:20.550 --> 00:35:26.870 I think though, for you, Seth, specifically you, I know you, and I know you love puzzles. 00:35:27.110 --> 00:35:32.390 And you love what are those, those puzzles, like the guy, the uh umbrella in the elevator, or what? 00:35:33.030 --> 00:35:33.910 The lateral thinking puzzles. 00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:35.430 The lateral thinking puzzles. 00:35:35.590 --> 00:35:40.070 You love lateral thinking puzzles, you love games and strategy games. 00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:45.269 Like you actually, I think all human brains need to answer questions. 00:35:45.430 --> 00:35:47.670 Like, I know this as a marketing writer. 00:35:47.830 --> 00:35:55.269 When you ask a question, not a yes or no question, but a question that like sparks curiosity, human brains must find an answer. 00:35:55.430 --> 00:35:57.190 That's why clickbait works. 00:35:57.269 --> 00:35:58.950 Like, we have to know the answer. 00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:03.269 You in particular, not just any human brain, but your human brain. 00:36:03.350 --> 00:36:13.110 Like, you love finding the solution to lateral thinking puzzles and to other sorts of like mind, like ethical questions. 00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:14.550 Like, you love that stuff. 00:36:15.590 --> 00:36:22.390 This show felt like it was giving you lots of lateral thinking puzzles, but there was no answer. 00:36:22.870 --> 00:36:45.750 And so I think for you in particular, who find so much satisfaction out of finding the answer when there isn't one, you feel let down in ways that a human who a human brain that like enjoys those sorts of puzzles but doesn't get the same satisfaction that you do is like meh, yeah, it's okay. 00:36:45.830 --> 00:36:46.789 I it's okay. 00:36:46.950 --> 00:36:49.269 Like, yeah, I didn't get the answer, but I don't mind. 00:36:51.910 --> 00:36:52.310 Exactly. 00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:56.070 Whereas you, Seth, are like, this is the worst show ever. 00:36:56.230 --> 00:36:57.190 I'm owed money. 00:36:57.350 --> 00:37:01.670 I am owed some sort of recompense for what they put me through. 00:37:02.070 --> 00:37:03.030 No, yeah. 00:37:03.269 --> 00:37:04.630 Like, you're totally right. 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:06.710 Like, I don't watch this kind of show. 00:37:06.870 --> 00:37:09.990 Like, I was not watching any hour-long drama. 00:37:10.070 --> 00:37:14.789 I was like Seinfeld and The Simpsons, like that was my bread and butter, right? 00:37:14.950 --> 00:37:25.750 Like, I only watch this show because they're like, it's this huge mystery that's gonna like unfold over years, and you're gonna, you know, and like it was all fake. 00:37:25.910 --> 00:37:28.150 It wasn't a real mystery, it was all lies. 00:37:28.310 --> 00:37:39.510 And so this is my analogy that kind of comes from the show, which is so there's on the show, there's

a character, Sawyer, who he's a con man. 00:37:39.670 --> 00:37:51.350 And his con is that he gets rich women to like fall in love with him and then give him all his their money for like an investment scheme, kind of, and then he absconds with the money, right? 00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:53.910 And he actually, it turns out he stole this. 00:37:54.070 --> 00:38:01.030 His name isn't really Sawyer, he stole this from some other con man who ripped off his own parents, and then tragedy ensued. 00:38:01.269 --> 00:38:09.750 The point is that, like, during the time that these women were being courted by Sawyer, right? 00:38:10.150 --> 00:38:12.150 It was a wonderful experience for them. 00:38:12.390 --> 00:38:13.830 They didn't have loving husbands. 00:38:13.910 --> 00:38:19.430 They were, this person is showering them with attention and teaching them amazing sex or whatever. 00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:25.190 I don't know, like whatever crazy stuff is happening, like it is a very happy time for them. 00:38:25.510 --> 00:38:29.110 But then it turns out it's all fake, right? 00:38:29.510 --> 00:38:36.950 The most popular description on the internet of Lost is this show was great, but it just had a bad ending. 00:38:37.350 --> 00:38:47.350 Well, you could kind of say the same thing about someone who is, you know, conned into giving away all their money by some con man, right? 00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:51.830 Like, wow, it was a great relationship, but then, you know, it ended bad. 00:38:51.990 --> 00:38:55.910 But like, that's not how we really think about these things, right? 00:38:56.230 --> 00:39:05.190 Once you find out that the ending was a fake, the whole thing was fake, then like it kind of recolors the way you think about all that fun you had over that time. 00:39:05.430 --> 00:39:07.830 And I just can't put that past me. 00:39:08.070 --> 00:39:11.030 There are other people who are like, well, look, we had a great time. 00:39:11.110 --> 00:39:16.630 We were chatting about this on the forums, we were going to pod, you know, we were listening to the podcast, like it was awesome. 00:39:16.789 --> 00:39:18.710 And then, okay, well, they didn't really have the answers. 00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:24.230 But like, to me, the fact that there was no answer just ruins everything that came before it. 00:39:24.630 --> 00:39:25.430 So okay. 00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:28.150 I I there there's two things I want to say. 00:39:28.390 --> 00:39:36.789 One is like I entirely understand where you're coming from because I think I would feel similarly if I had invested and kept watching. 00:39:37.110 --> 00:39:49.110 But I have to say that for for a show that was so slapdash, uh, like production quality, the writing, even the last-minute writing, the acting is so good. 00:39:49.590 --> 00:39:51.350 It is very, very compelling. 00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:53.910 And like that's part of the fraud, though. 00:39:54.070 --> 00:39:54.310 Yes. 00:39:54.470 --> 00:39:54.789 Right. 00:39:55.590 -->

00:39:55.910 Right. 00:39:56.070 --> 00:40:01.990 You have to be really charming and sexy to pull off the fraud where you steal the money from the women, right? 00:40:02.070 --> 00:40:04.870 Like if you're a crappy show, nobody's gonna keep watching you. 00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:09.190 It's telling me that these writers were, they were writing checks that they their mystery couldn't cash. 00:40:09.430 --> 00:40:14.230 It's not because they were bad writers, it's because they they weren't good mystery writers. 00:40:14.390 --> 00:40:25.910 That and and because this is the way that I internalize things, I feel for the artists because I'm imagining the amount of pressure that they were under to try to create something. 00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:28.470 And this is the other thing that this is bringing up for me. 00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:32.550 But again, before we we hit record, uh Seth and I were talking about there's a series of numbers. 00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:34.870 Is it a four, eight, fifteen, sixteen? 00:40:35.350 --> 00:40:37.990 Four, eight, fifteen, sixteen, twenty-three, forty-two. 00:40:38.390 --> 00:40:41.030 I would remember these numbers for the rest of my life. 00:40:41.190 --> 00:40:45.750 I don't even know my own children's phone numbers, but those numbers I know. 00:40:45.910 --> 00:40:46.230 Yeah. 00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:50.070 Those I was uh I I had them memorized for a little while while I was watching it. 00:40:50.150 --> 00:40:55.670 I was saying I should have remembered them because four and eight are important numbers for for us because we grew up on 48 Millstone Road. 00:40:55.830 --> 00:41:03.510 And then 42, of course, uh, and I am certain they chose this on purpose, is because, of course, it's uh the Hitchhiker's Guide, Life of the Universe, and everything number. 00:41:03.670 --> 00:41:18.390 But I'm bringing this up because Douglas Adams, who was a genius, is kind of skewering, like he died before Lost came out, but he's kind of skewering the fact that there are these great mysteries, and the answer you get is as unsatisfying as the number 42. 00:41:18.550 --> 00:41:22.470 And it happens over and over and over again in the in the Hitchhiker's Guide series. 00:41:23.590 --> 00:41:29.350 Like they go to a place where it's supposed to, where Marvin the the paranoid android finally dri dies. 00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:38.950 There's the the letters that are supposed to spell out like the um like message from the universe and is like, we apologize for the wait time, we'll be with you soon. 00:41:39.190 --> 00:41:40.870 So it's and stuff like that. 00:41:41.030 --> 00:41:50.870 And so there is something almost meta about the fact that there is this amazing journey and this really unsatisfying ending. 00:41:50.950 --> 00:41:58.230 And when you said like uh, you know, the show's good, bad ending, you know, this is this is not how you would describe the romance con. 00:41:58.470 --> 00:42:01.190 But I was thinking like that's kind of how life is. 00:42:01.910 --> 00:42:06.390 It's like, yeah, it's a pretty good voyage, and then the ending sucks. 00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:09.750 Tracy, I wanted to remind you about the prisoner. 00:42:09.990 --> 00:42:18.630 Yeah, I've been thinking about the prisoner for a lot of this conversation because so our stepfather like had us watch the prisoner as part of our cultural education. 00:42:18.950 --> 00:42:20.310 We should put that on the list. 00:42:20.470 --> 00:42:21.670 We should totally put it on the list. 00:42:21.830 --> 00:42:25.510 Actually, Erica should come talk about it because she she loves that show too. 00:42:25.910 --> 00:42:26.150 Okay. 00:42:26.390 --> 00:42:30.870 And I feel similar to you about the ending of The Prisoner, right? 00:42:30.950 --> 00:42:33.269 So The Prisoner, for those who don't know, was this British show. 00:42:33.350 --> 00:42:34.150 It was a limited run. 00:42:34.230 --> 00:42:35.670 It wasn't like an American TV show. 00:42:35.750 --> 00:42:37.190 They knew how many they were gonna have. 00:42:37.269 --> 00:42:48.310 And this guy like quits his like high power job in the British spy agency and he ends up on this island where he is number six, and they're they all have numbers based on the order of importance, and he wants to know who number one is. 00:42:48.470 --> 00:42:50.870 And so the whole mystery of the show is like who is number one? 00:42:50.950 --> 00:42:52.470 Like, who is like in charge of this? 00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:53.430 Is it a good guy? 00:42:53.510 --> 00:42:54.230 Is it a bad guy? 00:42:54.310 --> 00:42:55.030 Is it a whatever? 00:42:55.269 --> 00:43:00.870 And the final, the finale is this like bonkers like LSD trip. 00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:08.390 Like they were seriously on something when they wrote it, that just does not answer any of the any of the questions. 00:43:08.550 --> 00:43:13.350 It's just I I've actually blocked out what actually happens because it's just like I can't even remember. 00:43:13.590 --> 00:43:17.350 There's a little person involved I remember because I was just like, what is going on? 00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:18.390 It was just so weird. 00:43:18.550 --> 00:43:20.070 It's really somebody's LSD trip. 00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:25.510 It does the same thing in a lot fewer episodes as kind of what I'm hearing that Lost did. 00:43:25.670 --> 00:43:32.789 Like the central question of the prisoner, which is held up as like one of the best TV shows. 00:43:32.870 --> 00:43:35.910 Like, that's why our stepfather put it on the like cultural education list. 00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:41.350 And yet it has this ending that like I think they decided like we don't actually know. 00:43:41.430 --> 00:43:46.710 So we're just gonna like make the audience just walk away going like the fuck? 00:43:47.350 --> 00:43:51.110 Like, and then maybe they'll forget about the mystery. 00:43:51.430 --> 00:43:52.710 They didn't close the loop. 00:43:52.870 --> 00:43:55.190 That's like that's what's what

happened in I in both of these. 00:43:55.269 --> 00:43:56.710 There's there's no loop closing. 00:43:56.950 --> 00:43:57.830 Right, right. 00:43:58.070 --> 00:44:07.030 And and that I that is very dissatisfying for for someone like Seth who who takes so much satisfaction out of that loop closing. 00:44:07.190 --> 00:44:09.350 It's an interesting ethical question though. 00:44:09.510 --> 00:44:15.750 And the con of the romance is like it's a fascinating analogy here. 00:44:16.150 --> 00:44:16.550 Right. 00:44:16.710 --> 00:44:24.390 Like, I guess for those who like your fellow lost forum goers from back in the day who are like, yeah, it was pretty good. 00:44:24.470 --> 00:44:25.430 I just didn't like the ending. 00:44:25.590 --> 00:44:26.310 Like, they don't. 00:44:26.870 --> 00:44:32.230 Put as much value on the money that was taken, the metaphorical money that was taken. 00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:32.950 It's time. 00:44:34.470 --> 00:44:41.590 It's time and attention, like the number of hours that people spent on this and the number of commercials that they watched. 00:44:41.830 --> 00:44:51.110 You know, like there is like a commercial benefit to that that you're like, you're paying, whether you're paying for the show or not, you're paying in some sense. 00:44:51.750 --> 00:44:51.910 Yeah. 00:44:52.150 --> 00:45:17.750 I, you know, there I had a similar experience, sort of, with um the X-Files, which I loved, but I felt vindicated even when I was a an X-Files fan in the 90s as a 15-year-old, you know, when it first aired, I preferred the Monster of the Week episode to the greater mythology episodes because partial, like I don't think I couldn't say that I knew this at the time, but they were making it up as they went along. 00:45:17.830 --> 00:45:19.590 And it made less and less sense over time. 00:45:19.750 --> 00:45:23.190 And so there was never going to be, it was never going to be wrapped up in a neat bow. 00:45:23.350 --> 00:45:37.190 And I think what I was reacting to with the Monster of the Week episodes, which now, like X-Files fans in retrospect say those are the best episodes because they are well written, because you you have a complete narrative because it closes the loop. 00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:39.110 Yeah, it has a complete narrative arc. 00:45:39.350 --> 00:45:44.230 Whereas the the the mythology is just like they didn't know. 00:45:44.390 --> 00:45:47.269 Like it throws something new at the at the wall. 00:45:47.670 --> 00:45:53.350 When like just recently, Lego put out an X-Files Lego set. 00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:55.430 My youngest is obsessed with Lego. 00:45:55.590 --> 00:46:00.150 I'm trying to figure out how I can Homer Simpson the uh the the bowling ball to him. 00:46:00.470 --> 00:46:06.630 The Marge Simpson bowling ball to you know from uh Yeah, when when Homer bought Marge a bowling ball as a gift. 00:46:06.950 --> 00:46:10.870 Yeah, so uh so that uh I can get this this Lego set. 00:46:11.110 --> 00:46:16.310 But uh like I'm looking at it and they're saying, like, yeah, we've got many of the characters and they have a name. 00:46:16.470 --> 00:46:18.550 And I'm like, I have no idea who that character is. 00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:19.750 I'm a huge X-Files fan. 00:46:19.910 --> 00:46:21.670 I looked it up and it's the cigarette smoking man. 00:46:21.750 --> 00:46:23.190 I'm like, no. 00:46:23.830 --> 00:46:24.870 Oh, he has a name. 00:46:25.110 --> 00:46:27.430 He does not have a name. 00:46:27.990 --> 00:46:43.670 So it's a similar sort of thing where it's just like you're giving yourself an impossible task as a television writer of like keeping an open loop that the contract with the audiences that it will close sometime in the far, far future. 00:46:43.990 --> 00:46:53.510 And I feel for the artists, for the writers, because the like network is like breathing down your neck saying, like, keep that loop open, keep that loop open for as long as possible. 00:46:53.670 --> 00:47:04.230 It's the same problem that you have with Will They Want Their Relationships and why the like, you know, the ship between Mulder and Scully is really toxic to look at in retrospect. 00:47:04.310 --> 00:47:06.789 And it's just like just, you know, Scully, go live your life. 00:47:06.870 --> 00:47:07.590 You leave him alone. 00:47:07.750 --> 00:47:09.030 Just Mulder, leave her alone. 00:47:09.110 --> 00:47:15.510 Anyway, because stories need to need to have that narrative arc, they need to close the loop, they need to have that satisfying conclusion. 00:47:15.910 --> 00:47:18.630 No, I know we're go- I know we gotta wrap this up. 00:47:18.789 --> 00:47:19.190 It's crazy. 00:47:19.350 --> 00:47:23.910 We barely scratch the surface, but yeah, we are running short on time. 00:47:24.070 --> 00:47:28.870 Um, I think I I do want to reiterate the question, though, that you asked, right? 00:47:29.030 --> 00:47:32.710 Like the ultimate question that you're asking is is bigger than this show. 00:47:32.950 --> 00:47:39.350 You're asking whether or not not even actually, I I think it sounds to me like you believe there is a duty. 00:47:39.750 --> 00:47:48.630 So here's where I like, I think there kind of is a duty, but like lost is a unique situation because it is this long for over many seasons. 00:47:48.870 --> 00:48:00.870 Like you had a guest on this show who in the Encyclopedia Brown episode who wrote like a play where it was a mystery, but then you turn out like the mystery doesn't get solved. 00:48:00.950 --> 00:48:03.510 And like, hmm, was that unethical? 00:48:03.670 --> 00:48:05.830 Probably not, because that's just a play. 00:48:05.990 --> 00:48:11.750 Like you go, it's a one-shot deal, and like you learned a lesson and it had a point, right? 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:24.950 But this one, you're investing so much time into this stuff, and then like with no payoff, that it really does feel like they really needed to be more responsible with people's time. 00:48:25.190 --> 00:48:30.710 I think I

keep thinking about, sorry, it is my last thing that I'll say, but like to go back to Seinfeld, right? 00:48:30.789 --> 00:48:35.990 There's this episode of Seinfeld where Elaine is writing stories. 00:48:36.150 --> 00:48:38.230 Uh, she has to write stories for this for the J. 00:48:38.390 --> 00:48:39.910 Peterman catalog. 00:48:40.230 --> 00:48:44.150 And she then and they're like, you should use this story from Kramer. 00:48:44.310 --> 00:48:59.030 And Kramer's story is that he was going to return a pair of pants at the store, but then he fell in the mud, therefore ruining the very pants that he was returning. 00:48:59.190 --> 00:49:03.350 And it's like, oh, look at how this ironic twist happens. 00:49:03.510 --> 00:49:09.350 And then she's like, wait a second, you were wearing the pants that you're gonna return? 00:49:09.430 --> 00:49:11.430 Like, what were you gonna do when you got to the store? 00:49:11.590 --> 00:49:12.950 Like, how are you gonna get home? 00:49:13.110 --> 00:49:16.870 And Kramer's answer is, weren't you listening? 00:49:17.190 --> 00:49:19.510 I never even got to the store. 00:49:20.150 --> 00:49:23.830 And that is literally what Lost does over and over again. 00:49:23.990 --> 00:49:25.990 It's like, don't pay attention to all the shit. 00:49:26.070 --> 00:49:28.550 Well, like, we just are making it up. 00:49:28.710 --> 00:49:33.030 Stop acting like there's supposed to be some motivations or some kind of thing. 00:49:33.190 --> 00:49:37.190 And like that is that's what like what's so frustrating to me about Lost. 00:49:37.269 --> 00:49:37.510 Yeah. 00:49:37.830 --> 00:49:51.510 I would actually synthesize the difference between what Adam Guan was uh the guest that you're talking about and the play that he wrote where the mystery doesn't get solved is titled The Boy Detective Fails. 00:49:51.750 --> 00:49:55.430 And so he doesn't, the mystery is not solved in that play. 00:49:55.590 --> 00:49:56.870 I haven't actually seen it. 00:49:57.030 --> 00:49:58.390 Or I haven't seen it. 00:49:58.470 --> 00:50:00.630 So I only know what Adam told us on that show. 00:50:00.950 --> 00:50:08.789 But the the mystery doesn't get solved, and the title of the show hints that that's what's going to happen, right? 00:50:08.870 --> 00:50:16.230 So you go in knowing that something is going to break in your expectations because the title is The Boy Detective Fails. 00:50:16.470 --> 00:50:20.150 I think there's a degree of feeling duped. 00:50:20.310 --> 00:50:33.590 That's the word that you used when you came in, because there was the hints that they gave followed all of the genre conventions that Emily named as one of the things that artists have to follow. 00:50:33.830 --> 00:50:37.190 It followed all the genre conventions of traditional mysteries. 00:50:37.830 --> 00:50:43.510 And part of the genre convention of a traditional mystery is that there's a payoff when we learn who done it. 00:50:43.750 --> 00:50:58.710 I think the question about

what artists owe to their audience is affected by sort of the conventions and the expectation setting. 00:50:58.950 --> 00:51:05.269 And this isn't one of those cases where they subvert our expectations for some sort of specific effect, right? 00:51:05.430 --> 00:51:10.950 Horror and comedy both subvert expectations for the fear or the comedic effect. 00:51:11.510 --> 00:51:12.870 That's not what's happening here. 00:51:13.269 --> 00:51:17.430 They subverted expectations that you would get an answer because they didn't have one. 00:51:17.590 --> 00:51:21.030 I think if they'd had one, they would have given it to you. 00:51:21.269 --> 00:51:27.990 And that's what feels like you're being duped because they subverted your expectations and there was no payoff. 00:51:28.150 --> 00:51:33.510 And so it's a specific kind of like breaking the contract. 00:51:33.670 --> 00:51:37.830 Like artists break the contract all the time and we love them for it. 00:51:37.990 --> 00:51:44.230 But it's because we get something else that we think is better than what we were expecting. 00:51:44.870 --> 00:51:45.910 This didn't do that. 00:51:46.310 --> 00:51:47.269 At least not for you. 00:51:47.510 --> 00:51:55.030 I think that's a really interesting sort of I feel better about having named the components of what made you feel duped. 00:51:55.110 --> 00:51:57.430 Because you know, when you started and you were like, I felt manipulated. 00:51:57.510 --> 00:52:02.070 And I was like, all art manipulates, you know, like of course you feel of course you were manipulated. 00:52:02.230 --> 00:52:06.870 But you felt manipulated because you got to the end and you didn't get the payoff you were expecting. 00:52:07.030 --> 00:52:09.269 And you also didn't get another payoff that was better. 00:52:09.510 --> 00:52:09.910 Yeah. 00:52:10.070 --> 00:52:12.630 So I think that's that's the specific thing. 00:52:12.870 --> 00:52:13.190 Mm-hmm. 00:52:13.350 --> 00:52:21.670 And that's what made it such a complicated question because it's so common in art for them to in psycho they kill off the main character in the first half of the movie. 00:52:21.830 --> 00:52:25.670 Okay, we weren't expecting that, but like, oh wow, psycho is a great movie. 00:52:25.910 --> 00:52:28.950 But in this, it just it there was no point to it. 00:52:29.030 --> 00:52:30.870 There was nothing, there was no there there. 00:52:30.950 --> 00:52:41.269 And so breaking conventions is not in and of itself, because the contract sort of indicates that I will give you something that's satisfying in some way, or a lesson or something. 00:52:41.350 --> 00:52:52.710 Like even Adam Guan's story about the the play that he, or it was actually a musical that he collaborated on, that he didn't give the specific mystery payoff, but he was trying to give something else. 00:52:52.870 --> 00:52:56.390 And if you remember, he told us like audiences didn't love it. 00:52:56.550 --> 00:52:58.390 Yeah for exactly that reason. 00:52:58.630 --> 00:52:59.670 Yeah, I think that's it. 00:52:59.830 --> 00:53:00.470 That's the answer. 00:53:00.550 --> 00:53:03.190 And that's what well, that's what the prisoner writers. 00:53:03.590 --> 00:53:08.070 Yeah, the lost people totally leaned into this fiction over and over again. 00:53:08.230 --> 00:53:15.670 There were characters on the show, specifically Hurley, who would constantly kind of ask the questions that the audience was thinking. 00:53:15.830 --> 00:53:18.390 And then they'd be like, no, we don't have time for that now. 00:53:18.550 --> 00:53:21.110 We'll you'll learn this later, like clearly. 00:53:21.350 --> 00:53:27.830 And they were like selling t-shirts with the numbers on them, that which Emily alluded to earlier. 00:53:27.990 --> 00:53:31.990 And then in the last season, somebody's like, What's up with these numbers? 00:53:32.150 --> 00:53:35.910 And somebody says, uh, oh, Jacob's got a thing about numbers. 00:53:36.070 --> 00:53:38.310 Like that is literally how they talk about it. 00:53:38.390 --> 00:53:39.269 Wait, that was the answer? 00:53:39.430 --> 00:53:40.950 Jacob's got a thing about numbers? 00:53:41.350 --> 00:53:42.390 Got a thing about numbers. 00:53:42.470 --> 00:53:44.470 That's the closest they came to explaining what the numbers are. 00:53:45.750 --> 00:53:47.190 I didn't make it to the store. 00:53:48.310 --> 00:53:49.830 Right, exactly. 00:53:50.230 --> 00:53:50.550 Anyway. 00:53:50.950 --> 00:53:51.350 Wow. 00:53:51.510 --> 00:53:51.910 Wow. 00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:53.030 That's okay. 00:53:53.190 --> 00:53:54.870 That's really unsatisfying. 00:53:55.110 --> 00:54:00.390 And uh what's what I keep thinking about though is like the the lost writers. 00:54:00.550 --> 00:54:13.110 I uh as I'm like hearing you describe this, they are painting themselves into the smaller and smaller corner, thinking like, okay, we'll figure it out later, we'll figure it out later, we'll fix it in post, we'll fix it in post, fuck it, we'll do it live, fuck it, we'll do it live. 00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:19.830 Like they have no idea because they are like when you said that they had a better answer, they would have given it to you. 00:54:19.990 --> 00:54:27.910 They must have been so frustrated and overwhelmed and sad to do that weird church thing at the end, too. 00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:33.910 Because this didn't like and the Jacob has a thing about numbers, like they couldn't come up with anything. 00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:40.870 Like it's uh again, I I'm identifying with the artists, but uh, you know, I've been under deadline. 00:54:41.350 --> 00:54:41.750 Yeah. 00:54:42.390 --> 00:54:49.030 What I was gonna say is that I think that like the prisoner writers were in the same boat, and that's why they were just like shock and awe them. 00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:51.830 And and then we won't have to answer the answer the questions. 00:54:51.990 --> 00:54:52.470 Wow. 00:54:52.710 --> 00:55:04.310 I feel like we sort of did the summation that I usually do, like in kind of putting a finer point on what it was about lost versus other art that felt so unsatisfying. 00:55:04.390 --> 00:55:09.269 So I'm not gonna do my usual like this is what we talked about, because I sort of feel like we did it together. 00:55:09.590 --> 00:55:10.310 We covered it. 00:55:10.550 --> 00:55:11.830 We solved all the mysteries. 00:55:12.070 --> 00:55:14.070 All the mysteries, all the mysteries. 00:55:15.750 --> 00:55:19.910 So I know there was a bunch of other stuff that you were thinking about talking about, Seth. 00:55:19.990 --> 00:55:24.230 So we will do a shit we forgot to say, which is a patron exclusive. 00:55:24.390 --> 00:55:38.070 So, listeners, if you want to hear more about some of the like lessons besides the mystery that were happening in loss, a little bit of analysis around that, maybe around social issues, then please go head over to our Patreon. 00:55:38.310 --> 00:55:42.950 Link is in the show notes, and you can join for not that much money a month. 00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:44.310 It really isn't that much. 00:55:44.470 --> 00:55:46.390 Anyway, Seth, thank you so much for coming on. 00:55:46.550 --> 00:55:48.070 It was lovely to have you here. 00:55:48.470 --> 00:55:48.870 Thank you. 00:55:49.030 --> 00:55:49.830 I had a great time. 00:55:49.910 --> 00:55:50.070 Yeah. 00:55:50.390 --> 00:55:51.830 Em, I will see you next week. 00:55:52.150 --> 00:55:53.430 See you next week. 00:55:53.750 --> 00:55:58.070 This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce. 00:55:58.310 --> 00:56:03.670 If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking. 00:56:03.910 --> 00:56:06.150 You can support us at our Patreon. 00:56:06.310 --> 00:56:10.789 There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive review so others can find us. 00:56:10.950 --> 00:56:13.830 And of course, share the show with your people. 00:56:14.070 --> 00:56:19.190 Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. 00:56:19.510 --> 00:56:21.750 Find full music credits in the show notes. 00:56:21.910 --> 00:56:26.310 Until next time, remember, pop culture is still culture. 00:56:26.550 --> 00:56:28.390 And shouldn't you know what's in your head?