Jakson "Can All Behavioral Problems Be Blamed on Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome?" with Dr Ben Sykes and Dr Amy Lovett täydellinen litterointi

die hard, horse crazy. 00:03:11.259 --> 00:03:22.060 Uh, everything was plastered in posters of horses and pictures of horses, uh, to the point that I convinced my parents that I wasn't going to grow out of horses and that I really, really wanted a horse. 00:03:22.299 --> 00:03:26.379 And uh that, yeah, love for horses has has never left me. 00:03:26.459 --> 00:03:33.259 So that took me through to vet school, getting into vet school, graduated from the University of Melbourne in 2013. 00:03:33.419 --> 00:03:35.340 Uh, I thought I wanted to go into mixed practice. 00:03:35.419 --> 00:03:42.299 I really just love that idea of being able to treat and see all animals and be in the country, live on a live on a farm. 00:03:42.379 --> 00:03:43.819 That was sort of my dreams. 00:03:43.979 --> 00:03:48.780 But as I went through all the different species, I just liked working with horses most. 00:03:48.859 --> 00:03:54.379 So I followed my heart there again and went into equine internship in a hospital in Sydney. 00:03:54.539 --> 00:04:03.579 And then from there, I did a couple of years in general ambulatory equine practice, which was really good, I think, for my background understanding now as an educator at a at a vet school. 00:04:03.659 --> 00:04:06.859 Um, because that's often where our graduates are going, is into general practice. 00:04:06.939 --> 00:04:08.620 So if I can understand that experience. 00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:16.860 And that was something Ben always highlighted to me when we worked as together as far as yeah, an asset as an educator, is having having actually lived that experience. 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:24.139 So a couple of years in general practice, uh just horses only, ambulatory setting from Australia to the United States. 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:36.620 And then I I I I always just loved medicine in my internship, so it made sense to go into equine internal medicine um while I was in the States, while I had those opportunities available to me as far as residency programs. 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:41.259 So I moved to Oklahoma State University and completed my residency there. 00:04:41.420 --> 00:04:51.579 That took three years, and then another year in the States at um Kentucky at uh Haggard's Equine Medical Institute, where I did a fellowship and I just love full medicine. 00:04:51.819 --> 00:04:56.459 So that was an excellent experience while I was over there before moving back down under. 00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:13.019 And that's what brought me to Ben and uh working together at Massey University for about three and a half years, and that really solidified my experience coming out of a residency training myself and then starting to uh supervise others' trainings. 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:20.459 We had a resident there in internal medicine and educating the veterinary students in Equine uh in New Zealand. 00:05:20.779 --> 00:05:25.579 And I started looking for more opportunities over back home in Australia. 00:05:25.659 --> 00:05:30.379 So I've come full circle now, and I'm at Charles Stoe University uh in Australia. 00:05:30.699 --> 00:05:32.139 Wow, the same thing. 00:05:32.219 --> 00:05:32.860 Yeah. 00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:35.579 So we've got a horse hospital, yeah. 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.139 We do equine medicine in a in a hospital. 00:05:38.219 --> 00:05:39.819 It's a full 24-7 hospital. 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:43.259 So although I'm a lecturer, um, it's very much clinical based. 00:05:43.339 --> 00:05:43.819 And yeah. 00:05:44.139 --> 00:05:46.060 It's incredible, absolutely incredible. 00:05:46.459 --> 00:05:51.980 I'm just I know I'm a little bit like, wow, like that's so much in a space of time and so buried as well. 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:56.860 And you travel different places, you must have met so many amazing interests you have along the way as well. 00:05:57.980 --> 00:06:00.699 Yeah, yeah, I have very, very fortunate. 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:01.500 Yeah. 00:06:02.060 --> 00:06:04.139 And we guessed it today, which is awesome. 00:06:04.300 --> 00:06:05.180 Yeah, including Ben. 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:06.860 So that's a good segue. 00:06:07.420 --> 00:06:08.779 Yeah, nice one. 00:06:09.339 --> 00:06:10.620 Yeah, so I'll jump in there. 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:11.019 I guess. 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:19.899 Um, yeah, so my background, actually remarkably similar to Amy's, grew up very close to where Amy grew up, um, but somewhat years apart. 00:06:20.060 --> 00:06:22.699 Um, also followed a quite a similar path. 00:06:22.779 --> 00:06:24.060 Don't come from a horsey background. 00:06:24.139 --> 00:06:30.620 So if there's anyone out there listening who says, Oh, you know, I kind of want to be a horse vet, but I never worked with horses, it's fine. 00:06:30.779 --> 00:06:33.019 I didn't really work with them until the day I graduated. 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:37.019 So um they can be learned skills, and I think we'll get the sense. 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:46.300 Yeah, and I think you know, some ways it we're gonna talk about this learned experiences stuff, and some some ways having that um clean slate maybe is an advantage sometimes. 00:06:46.459 --> 00:07:04.219 So um I went to vet school in in Western Australia and graduated nearly 30 years ago, followed a similar path, internship, went to the US to do a residency, and then I had a little segue across to Finland for six and a half years um of all the random places in the world to go. 00:07:04.539 --> 00:07:13.579 And I worked there initially at the University of Helsinki and then was involved in setting up the first 24-hour private horse hospital in Finland. 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:34.459 Uh, did that for a couple of years and then came back to Australia about uh 16 years ago now, coming up 17 years, and have spent the majority of my time since I came back to Australia working primarily in research, really focused on gastric ulcers, um, but also working sort of at that intersection between research, education, um,

and consultancy. 00:07:34.539 --> 00:07:46.300 So I do quite a lot of consultancy on product development and those types of things, but it gives me a great opportunity to travel all around the world, see how different things are done, work with different horse populations and talk to all sorts of different folks. 00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:48.539 That's an absolutely amazing. 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:50.699 Yeah, like just blown away. 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:53.980 Like you guys have had such an amazing career. 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:55.740 I love how much you've traveled as well. 00:07:55.819 --> 00:08:02.539 So you've seen different cultures and aspects of the industry, and it's not just been, you know, one one, you know, cluster. 00:08:02.860 --> 00:08:05.339 You know, equindustry varies around the world. 00:08:05.659 --> 00:08:07.259 So you've had perspective. 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:09.819 Yeah, the industry varies a lot around the world. 00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:15.339 What I've found sort of almost universal is that horse vets around the world are the same. 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:15.740 Yeah. 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:20.459 It's like this kinship of the way the world is seen, the sense of humor. 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:25.579 It's like it doesn't matter where in the world you go, you start talking to horse vets, and everyone kind of sees the world the same way. 00:08:25.659 --> 00:08:27.500 It's quite quite funny, actually. 00:08:29.099 --> 00:08:30.699 It takes a certain personality, yeah. 00:08:30.939 --> 00:08:32.940 It's the same with behaviors, yeah. 00:08:33.019 --> 00:08:38.300 I say we we we had um Ella on the podcast who was works with behavior. 00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:41.019 I think she's also in Charles Um Stute. 00:08:41.259 --> 00:08:42.379 Yeah, you Stute? 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:43.340 Sturge, yeah. 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:43.899 Sturf. 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:45.980 Yes, yeah. 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:53.100 We had her, I say, on last week, and you know, she's behavioural minded, and we were just like we're just like we'd known each other for years. 00:08:53.180 --> 00:08:58.300 I'm like, yeah, we're all mad, I think, um, to get into this in the first place. 00:08:58.460 --> 00:09:01.100 Where there's obviously a certain type of personality. 00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:09.659 Um, I I love what you said, you know, Ben, about it it being at a an I you might see me nodding away, an advantage not growing up with horses. 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:10.620 I I agree with you. 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:11.500 I say that all the time. 00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:15.420 I didn't grow up with horses, like I was animal mad, just full stop. 00:09:15.500 --> 00:09:19.420 Like I would have done vetery, you know, but it wasn't accessible to me at the time. 00:09:19.580 --> 00:09:21.659 Um, so I did zoology. 00:09:21.899 --> 00:09:40.220 Um, and I was just completely and utterly animal mad and got the bug, you know, for horses coming from a behavior and a zoology background,

going like, whoa, why haven't we budged an inch when it comes to horses and our care of them? 00:09:40.379 --> 00:09:46.379 Um, when we have with all of these other animals, but we're so in the dark ages with horses, and I couldn't understand. 00:09:46.539 --> 00:09:49.019 Um, but I I am I'm the same. 00:09:49.100 --> 00:10:07.100 I think it was an advantage for me to not grow up with horses because as you say, you know, you you know, it kind of helps you think outside the box a little bit more, you know, and you kind of you you're not um what's the word I'm looking for? 00:10:07.500 --> 00:10:12.379 You're looking at it from a different lens, you know, and you can bring that to it. 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:13.580 So I I agree with you. 00:10:13.659 --> 00:10:24.299 I think it's so like yeah, I say if anybody's listening and they've gotten into horses later in life, or it's something that they want to do, you know, absolutely like it's it's not a barrier to entry. 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:27.100 Yeah, it could be a really steep learning curve. 00:10:27.259 --> 00:10:33.019 Um, like yeah, getting through those initial bits and learning the lingo and learning the sort of and learning the horses, you know. 00:10:33.100 --> 00:10:38.860 Learning I grew up with beef cattle, so you you know, but quiet beef cattle, and you've got to be quiet, they're gonna be quiet, you know. 00:10:38.939 --> 00:10:40.620 So there's a lot of similarities there. 00:10:40.860 --> 00:10:45.500 Um but yeah, not not having necessarily those pre-form biases. 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:51.740 Um my wife's a lifelong horse person, it drives her nuts because I'm just constantly saying, but what about that? 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:53.500 Why don't we could we do that? 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:54.539 Or why do we do that? 00:10:54.700 --> 00:10:55.980 Well, that doesn't make any sense. 00:10:56.059 --> 00:11:08.860 And it's you know, just um fortunately I'm not shy of stirring the pot occasionally, so um, so I've kind of landed on my feet there that I can be the protagonist if I really want to be. 00:11:10.220 --> 00:11:12.620 No, that's absolutely awesome. 00:11:12.939 --> 00:11:14.539 Can I jump in with our first question? 00:11:14.860 --> 00:11:16.700 And Amy, I'm gonna come straight to you. 00:11:17.179 --> 00:11:20.220 I always love to get a sense of the the authors behind the paper. 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:23.500 So it's a question to both of you, but sorry, Amy. 00:11:23.899 --> 00:11:26.460 What was your personal motivation for doing this paper? 00:11:26.620 --> 00:11:28.220 What did it bring for you? 00:11:28.379 --> 00:11:34.139 Um was is there any story or experience that kind of focused your uh attention this way? 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:36.779 As in like ulcers and behavior and everything else. 00:11:37.419 --> 00:11:45.659 Yeah, uh if I'm speaking truthfully, I've been sort of writing on the coattails of of Ben in the world of equine gastricosis syndrome. 00:11:45.740 --> 00:11:55.659 I've been very fortunate that he was my mentor at Massey University and he has an extensive research history on Econom gastricosis syndrome. 00:11:55.980 --> 00:12:05.580 And uh of course, with that, as as I started at Massey University came papers that he already had underway, concepts that he already had underway. 00:12:05.819 --> 00:12:16.779 Uh, and in you know, the the gratitude that I have for his invitation to to join him on this as a as an editorial article, uh, so more of an opinion base. 00:12:17.419 --> 00:12:26.139 And I think full credit to Ben that the concept and this approach uh is is more conceptually his child. 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:43.740 Uh, but I think some of the perspectives that have uh aligned with my interest is um just serendipitously dad took us to a writing school that was um a natural horsemanship riding school. 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:44.779 We had no idea. 00:12:44.939 --> 00:12:48.779 It was called Unicorn Stables, and that sounded great to me. 00:12:49.659 --> 00:12:52.779 And uh turned out it was all like natural horsemanship. 00:12:52.939 --> 00:12:53.980 We didn't know what that was. 00:12:54.139 --> 00:13:11.419 I was just happy to be around horses, but it did sort of shape my understanding that I'm grateful for that experience too, around a horse behavior, observing horse behaviour, the horse being the center, the horse's experience being the center of things and and optimizing their health and welfare and experiences around that. 00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:21.980 So uh when when Ben came to me with the idea of this editorial, I I loved it and was very pleased to be a part of it, just yeah, because of my my background in that space. 00:13:23.019 --> 00:13:23.580 Love that. 00:13:23.819 --> 00:13:24.139 Love that. 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:25.500 And then same question to you, Ben. 00:13:25.740 --> 00:13:28.220 What was your motivation for this topic? 00:13:28.539 --> 00:13:37.819 Yeah, so I I mean we stand on the shoulders of giants, I think, and and in this space, we we have to recognize the work that Sue Dyson's done with the ridden horse pain ethogram. 00:13:37.899 --> 00:13:45.419 It has really been a paradigm shift in how we think about this, and and um, you know, my sort of motivator for this sort of came from that. 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:59.580 It was actually, as most best um ideas came and had came over a cocktail at a conference, um, a fairly late night cocktail at a conference, where I bumped into Sue Dyson um with another colleague on the river walk in San Antonio. 00:13:59.740 --> 00:14:04.220 And um, I don't know whether you've had the opportunity to interview Sue, but she's a pretty straight shooter. 00:14:04.379 --> 00:14:13.100 And she said she said straight, she goes, You guys are full of it, you know, all these horses with ulcers, and um they all come to me, they've been treated with ulcers, they haven't got better. 00:14:13.259 --> 00:14:18.460 And then when I fix their lameness,

you know, we understand their lameness, they they stop the behavior. 00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:45.419 It's you know, you're missing the point, and sort of went away from that, having initially vigorously defended myself, um, went away from that and really started thinking about it, and then had the opportunity, just I think it was a couple of months later, to present at uh a big resort symposium for the American Equine Vets in Costa Rica and threw that down as my first lecture um to a few hundred vets, and it was almost just like a penny drop in the room. 00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:51.419 It was just silence, and everyone was just like, oh, we've been missing something here. 00:14:51.899 --> 00:15:08.299 And so the more we got involved in it, more we talked about it, the more we talked about particularly getting out of those silos of what we do all day, every day, as particularly a specialist, but it uh you know, all vets end up in silos because you you tend to do what you're good at, um the more the more engaging. 00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:15.019 So it's you know, really it's really taken off from there, and then it's just continued more and more into the welfare space. 00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:19.659 I think the welfare space is somewhere where traditionally equine vets are shunned from. 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:24.939 Um we're not really invited in and we don't necessarily let ourselves in the door. 00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:45.259 Um, but I think the angle of the gastric ulses and the intersection between gastric ulses and welfare, and then obviously behaviour being the communication piece for the horse around that um is just a beautiful little trilogy of things that is really, really engaging for veterinarians uh and really, really engaging for horse owners. 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:45.899 Yeah. 00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:46.539 Love that. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:51.100 I just it's also quite sad what you've said there about like vets and welfare space not being shaped. 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:52.539 I was about to say, yeah. 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:54.379 It's actually quite sad in a way, isn't it? 00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:56.139 Because vets are there for welfare. 00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:06.220 Yeah, I would argue we're the sort of the not the only guardian of the welfare, but we have a fairly unique position to be to be in a guardianship position for welfare. 00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:14.939 Um, but especially in the horse industries, I'm sure everyone in this space has experienced there's a lot of other voices in that room. 00:16:15.259 --> 00:16:23.259 And um and the challenge being the bet is you've often got relatively limited contact points with an owner because you're in there to fix one problem and get out. 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:40.059 Um, that being able to step back and manage the holistic conversation or be in a regular engagement around those things, which is what welfare is, it's a daily ongoing conversation, not fixing one problem that pops up like ulcers

and then goes away or doesn't go away. 00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:43.100 So and it's so interesting you say that. 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:53.340 Sorry to interrupt you, Ben, because like when we talk to owners, because myself and Jen have that opportunity to have that holistic conversation and explain things as well. 00:16:53.419 --> 00:17:27.180 And as a clinical behaviorist, like what a lot of I say, a lot of you know, the vets that I have a relationship with here because time is so limited with them as well, and they don't get the opportunity to have that conversation, they'll explain the diagnosis and the treatment plan to me, and then I get to spend an hour with the with the owner and doing the behavior stuff, and they get to ask me questions, and I'm almost supporting that side of things and explaining, okay, this is what happens with that treatment plan, you know, and they're asking all the questions that the vet doesn't get the opportunity to do because time is so precious. 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:33.819 You know, we have a lot of corporations here, you know, which have kind of bought up a lot of like the individual practices. 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:42.779 So, you know, the vets are given slots of like 10-15 minutes, so they don't get to have, as you say, that conversation about you know, welfare. 00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:52.779 Like, we don't get that general practice conversation of supporting that animal and that owner throughout their life um the way we used to. 00:17:53.019 --> 00:18:03.099 And the sad bit about it is the fact that like vets here particularly are still the authority, um, you know, when it comes to welfare conversations, you know. 00:18:03.339 --> 00:18:10.460 Um like whenever we're I say, like, oh, you know, like the horse is stabled for 24 hours, it's like, oh, the vet said it's fine, you know. 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:15.420 So, like, you know, it's so there's still an authority, but then vets don't get the opportunity to have those conversations. 00:18:15.579 --> 00:18:19.980 It's as you say, it's this weird sort of paradigm, and it's quite sad in many ways. 00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:21.819 Yeah, or the context is missing. 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:30.779 The vet said it's necessary for this period of time because the horse has an injury, not that's what I want the horse to live like for the rest of its life. 00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:37.819 And and context is subtle, and and nuance takes time to explain and to reinforce and reinforce. 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:40.379 So um, I think they're very real challenges. 00:18:40.460 --> 00:18:50.059 But I do think we have a really not unique position, but a really special position to be that sort of guardian of welfare when we can engage in those conversations. 00:18:50.539 --> 00:18:54.619 Talking about um nuances and it kind of led me onto one of my questions about the paper. 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:57.019 But was there anything else, Barbara, you wanted to discuss? 00:18:57.500 --> 00:19:01.019 No, no, no, no, crack on because they say, like, uh I was just gonna ask questions about paper. 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:01.740 Yeah, go ahead. 00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:04.619 So I think we're talking about nuances and differences. 00:19:04.779 --> 00:19:08.539 Um, thinking about hopefully all our listeners are gonna go off and read your paper. 00:19:08.779 --> 00:19:15.019 I thought one of the hopeful um useful things to do would be to just talk them through different types of ulcers because there's lots of lovely acronyms. 00:19:15.259 --> 00:19:21.099 And if you're not used to, I think for some listeners, they will be surprised that there's actually more than one type and there's categories. 00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:32.619 So I don't mind who takes this question, but just to talk our listeners through so ESG D and E and E G G D so our different types, so they when they read that acronym, they know what we're on about. 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:39.819 Yeah, we love our acronyms in in medicine, uh equine medicine just as much as anywhere else. 00:19:40.059 --> 00:19:51.019 So uh these abbreviations just help us be a bit more efficient, probably in our writing and and explaining, you know, talking amongst one another for the most part, but then it is confusing for everyone else. 00:19:51.180 --> 00:20:01.259 So e-gas is the equine gastric ulcer syndrome, and a syndrome is just a collection of um risk factors or clinical signs that that show together. 00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:05.819 So e-gas itself isn't a disease per se. 00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:15.019 Uh it's an umbrella term that we use to collectively uh r refer to diseases of the lining of the stomach. 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:19.420 So there's other gastric diseases too, that it's not all diseases fit under eagers. 00:20:19.900 --> 00:20:25.259 Um, but what what we're talking specifically about is diseases of the lining of the stomach. 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:40.220 So horses have a pretty interesting stomach in the sense that there's that it's one cavity, if you will, um unlike the ruminants, if you want to compare to other species, ruminant species um have multiple different compartments. 00:20:40.379 --> 00:20:57.180 They have four, uh, whereas horses just have the one stomach, like a a dog or a cat or a human, but the lining within it is uh different to dogs and cats and humans, in that there is two very distinctly different types of uh uh tissue lining of the stomach. 00:20:57.500 --> 00:21:01.819 And so those lining uh tissues, we call them mucosa. 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:04.700 That's a singular mucosa for plural. 00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:11.180 Um so we've got two different segments of lining, and and they connected a margin called the Margo Placato. 00:21:11.420 --> 00:21:14.700 So that's the the anatomical term for that distinct lining. 00:21:14.859 --> 00:21:27.579 Uh and that's equine squamous gastric disease is uh one of the major conditions, so ESGD, and then there's equine glandular

gastric disease, E G D. 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:35.180 And so the squamous mucosa, when that gets diseased, we have a pretty good handle on why that happens in horses. 00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:49.180 Uh the equine glandular gastric disease, we we don't have as much clarity around the pathophysiology, which is the term meaning um the the the study of um disease in in the realm of physiology. 00:21:49.420 --> 00:22:01.180 So for squamous gastric disease, uh Ben has some like analogies to human medicine, which I find as useful as far as esophageal reflux um in humans. 00:22:01.339 --> 00:22:10.539 So that's like the gastric acid splashing up on a layer that is not as well uh protected from acid exposure. 00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:15.579 Uh so that the squamous mucosa is not as well protected as the glandular mucosa. 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:20.539 So when there's acid splash on that, it gets injured, and that's where we the typical location for ulcers. 00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:26.619 Um whereas when there's ulcers in the glandular portion, that portion, that's where the acid's produced. 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:32.539 It should be protected from a layer physiologically made of mucus and bicarbonate. 00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:36.299 So that's a buffer for the acid, the hydrochloric acid. 00:22:36.619 --> 00:22:43.339 And when there is disruptions in that, that barrier, that's when disease can occur. 00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:53.019 And so whether there's reduced in um production of the mucobicarbonate layer or um there's overwhelming um destruction of it. 00:22:54.220 --> 00:23:01.019 When there's disruption to the mucobicarbonate layer, then that allows for disease of the glandular mucosa. 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:07.819 So the pathophysiology around that is quite different to the disease of the squamous mucosa. 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:11.099 So hope that's not too much mumbo jumbo for everyone. 00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:13.579 But wonderful. 00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:15.740 I never thought about that. 00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:17.099 I'll just add that. 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:23.500 Rats, rats and rhinoceroses are the other two main species that have the same type of stomach. 00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:26.059 Do you not know that? 00:23:26.379 --> 00:23:27.180 What about? 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:34.140 Because I always think because they're non-ruminants and they have cecums, I always think like elephants, giraffe, rabbit. 00:23:34.379 --> 00:23:40.140 So do they they don't, you know, because they're non-ruminants as well, so they don't have a the same stomach. 00:23:40.460 --> 00:23:40.859 Correct. 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:42.299 Yeah, it's rhinos do. 00:23:42.619 --> 00:23:45.819 A rhino inside is nearly identical to a horse inside. 00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:49.579 Um rats are a little bit more different, but the stomach's basically the same. 00:23:49.660 --> 00:23:52.299 But yes, the the stomach of those other species is different. 00:23:52.539 --> 00:23:53.579 That's so interesting.

00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:58.859 Because in my mind, I'm always like, rat, you know, that's awesome. 00:23:59.259 --> 00:23:59.579 Yeah. 00:24:00.619 --> 00:24:02.059 I think also really interesting. 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:07.099 I'd never really had that kind of um, I can't even think of the word getting tongue tied today. 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:15.339 Um, the fact that it's about ulcer, um, ulcers and acid, and the fact that glandular, well, that's designed to sit with acid and everything else. 00:24:16.059 --> 00:24:17.099 So why is it happening? 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:24.379 That's so interesting, and makes sense why there's less understood because what's happening to different parts of the stomach doesn't quite make sense. 00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:25.900 So that's really interesting. 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:27.900 I didn't know that, and that's gonna keep me thinking now. 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:28.700 Ah, cool. 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:31.019 So that we'll wait for you guys to answer the question. 00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:33.420 Yeah, the squamous is a chemical burn. 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:35.339 It's acid being up where it doesn't belong. 00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:40.779 I mean, it there's acid goes up there a little bit normally, but it's excessive acid exposure that's the problem. 00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:46.379 The glandulas, yeah, it's as Amy said, it's the breakdown of normal mechanisms, defense mechanisms. 00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:54.779 We don't know why, but we at least associate behavioral stress as a perpetuator or a propagator. 00:24:54.859 --> 00:25:03.819 Um, it's probably not the o primary trigger necessarily, but it exacerbates whatever other processes might be going on, um, as it does in humans. 00:25:04.059 --> 00:25:06.700 It's not an initiator, but it's certainly a propagator. 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.180 I love that acid where it doesn't belong. 00:25:09.339 --> 00:25:11.900 Um that's a wonderful phrase. 00:25:12.379 --> 00:25:19.819 And that's acid where it doesn't belong is just like you know, at a you go out with your mates for a couple of nights in a row and you get heartburn. 00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.460 I mean, that's that's acid where it doesn't belong. 00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:27.740 That's the horse's equivalent of squamous disease, but just to the point where it burns a hole in the lining. 00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:28.299 Yeah. 00:25:28.460 --> 00:25:31.579 And you and you've mentioned about behavioral presentation. 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:37.019 So I say my next question is like, and I know I'm gonna pick on girtiness, right? 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:52.379 So, you know, I think like an you know, my takeaway from this paper in many ways is like girthiness, you know, not that girthiness means ulcers, but rather girthiness deserves investigation, you know. 00:25:52.619 --> 00:26:07.579 So my question to you is like, when we see a horse like, um, or I say when you see a horse with gastric disease clinically, like what behavioural changes are genuine, you know, that genuinely kind of make your ears prick up? 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:09.740 And that you try to go, all right. 00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:12.059 Yeah, that and that's yeah, that's the correct answer. 00:26:12.619 --> 00:26:14.140 That's why I don't want to ask it. 00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:24.379 So certainly if we see if we see unexplained weight loss or we see loss of appetite, particularly associated with hay, that makes us think about squamous disease. 00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:32.779 Um, particularly if there's these other risk factors there, like the high performance horses and stuff, that's very much um a fairly linear link. 00:26:33.019 --> 00:26:49.660 But when we talk about the behavioural things, whether it be girthiness, whether it be undesirable behaviour during riding, whether it be take your pick of all the things that are listed that gastric ulcers potentially supposedly or apparently cause, um, none of them are specific for gastric disease. 00:26:49.740 --> 00:27:00.700 And there's one paper out there, it's not the world's best paper, but they look specifically at girthiness, and a third of the horses had girt, a third of the horses had gastric disease, a third had lameness, and a third had other stuff. 00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:08.940 So it's a non-specific descriptor of pain, even though it's the one that's most commonly attached to gland disease. 00:27:09.099 --> 00:27:10.379 And multiple studies have shown that. 00:27:10.460 --> 00:27:17.819 It's not just one study, multiple studies have shown these are not indicators of gastric disease, these are behavioural indicators of pain. 00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:25.900 And we know that horses with even leg pain, uh lameness, will show those behaviors during groundwork. 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:32.460 So during tacking up and mounting, this is this anticipatory behavior that they form. 00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:39.740 And some of them you'll even see when you walk the saddle past them, they put their ears back and start reacting because they they know what's happening, they know what's coming. 00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:40.220 100%. 00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:41.900 It's associative learning. 00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:46.779 Sorry, I I did lead you into that because um it was kind of a bug bear. 00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:58.539 I did an interview a number of years ago with um a an equine insurance company, they were looking to do behavioral stuff, and the first question they asked me was, What are the behavioral indicators of gastric ulcers? 00:27:58.779 --> 00:28:03.819 And I was like, But well, no, it could be, you know, and I was like, I can't answer that. 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:26.140 And they were like, they were so confused because if not that I'd gone to it, but like, you know, social media, like, you know, you just go through my horse is forming this behavior, and every single comment is scope for gastric ulcers, gastric ulcers, gastric ulcers, and every product in the world is

designed to magically cure them, and that'll stop the behavioral problem. 00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:37.180 But it's everything, you know, and say, like, and for girthiness as well, as you say, we've got associative learning, like has you know, I say what way is the girth being put up on? 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:40.220 Has it been trained effectively when the girth is put on? 00:28:40.299 --> 00:28:41.180 Is there back pain? 00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:42.859 Does the saddle fit properly? 00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:48.859 You know, do we have you know, even dermatological issues like around the girth and the back of the saddle? 00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:51.339 You know, how was it originally trained? 00:28:51.579 --> 00:28:53.420 Because horses are one trial learners. 00:28:53.500 --> 00:29:02.220 So the first time we put on a girth, a lot of traditional, you know, training is whack it on, whoop it up, you know, and then off we go. 00:29:02.379 --> 00:29:05.019 And we've done that for the initial associative learning. 00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:14.539 And, you know, we can, you know, say like how you know behavioral modification that we do with girthiness, um, you know, is completely different. 00:29:14.779 --> 00:29:26.059 And, you know, to that point, and I I don't know if you guys said this, but I often say like behavior is medicine, you know, and it is it gives it it actually supports our you know differential diagnosis. 00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:43.420 So if I have a horse that's girt has girthiness and I perform behavioral modification using correct like um learning theory, and we see an improvement, you know, in the behavior, and then suddenly we get spontaneous recovery and we're back to girthiness. 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:49.500 That's actually information that there is underlying discomfort and pain because it gives us more information. 00:29:49.900 --> 00:29:57.579 Whereas if we do see an improvement, then we can go, okay, potentially there is an associative learning and it is behavior, you know. 00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:03.660 So it helps actually give us more information when we correctly, you know, apply it. 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:06.700 Um, but yeah, sorry, I've gone down a rabbit hole. 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:11.900 Uh yeah, no, I think behavior can be cause, effect, and an outcome. 00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:21.420 And it's it's we you know, we we need to think of it, it sort of circles around or sits in the middle, depending on which way you view it, of all of those other things that that are going on. 00:30:21.579 --> 00:30:40.220 And I I the I I get why it's so hard for horse owners to work through this because there has been an absolute indoctrination by commercial interests for I love that you just call it as it is, Ben. 00:30:40.379 --> 00:30:41.099 Thank you. 00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:45.980 Yeah, um, long before social media, I was around before social media, and it was still the same. 00:30:46.059 --> 00:31:07.980 And Amy doesn't do social media, so um, you know, there has been an absolute indoctrination across many levels of the commercialization of gastric disease to create these associations in owners' heads, and it's not that they are inherently wrong, but they are categorically incomplete. 00:31:08.859 --> 00:31:09.500 Yeah. 00:31:10.379 --> 00:31:37.339 I see it often when we do, you know, you know, I say we go out, we get client information before we go out for assessments and people in the, you know, we we always ask and and communicate with the vet as well, like is there any underlying medical issues where behavioral modification, you know, and working with behaviors, obviously, is there any considerations as well, you know, um, to make sure that we're working from a welfare and an ethics like perspective. 00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:44.779 And you know, the owner will tell us, yes, you know, they have gastric ulcers and I've been treating them with this supplement or so on and so forth. 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:51.099 Um, and then you communicate with the vet and they go, they've never been diagnosed with that gastroculcers are treated at all. 00:31:51.259 --> 00:32:00.700 So, you know, um so you have these two different ones, and you've got to try and like work with that as well, um, which is quite an interesting one. 00:32:00.859 --> 00:32:08.299 So it's just like, and you have to try and explain to the owner then, because they're like, no, no, they're being treated by this supplement and they have gastroculcers. 00:32:08.379 --> 00:32:12.299 And I go, okay, well, you know, we haven't actually scoped. 00:32:12.379 --> 00:32:14.619 Um, we don't actually have a diagnosis. 00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:26.619 Um, no, but so and so in this said it, and it's just like, well, no, like the only person who can correctly diagnose something is a vet, and you have to do the diagnostics, you know, and they're so shocked by that. 00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:29.259 Which I am like, how has that happened? 00:32:29.420 --> 00:32:54.059 You know, I know I've gone down, you know, a kind of a strange rabbit hole, but you know, why do you think that is like what what's happened where you know we've stopped doing diagnostics and become over reliant on well, my horse is grumpy or lazy or spooky, so they have to have gastric ulcers, and we miss the vet completely, and they just go, it's gastric ulcers, you know. 00:32:54.140 --> 00:33:10.940 And I know you said there's yeah, it's easy, yeah, okay and it's cheaper, and yeah, and and because gastric ulcers are so common, you know, when you're talking, depending on the population, 50-70% of horses, you're gonna have your wins. 00:33:11.019 --> 00:33:12.299 You're gonna have you're gonna be right. 00:33:12.379 --> 00:33:25.900 Even a stop clock is right twice a day, and you get you're gonna be right, but it misses the completeness of the picture, it misses the we get to throw in the differential diagnoses idea, misses the idea that there may be other causes. 00:33:26.059 -->

00:33:39.099 And I think the other thing that happens a lot, and we're trained as veterinarians to do this, we're trained to Occam's raids that the simplest answer is the best solution type thing, and we're trained that you find one answer to every problem. 00:33:39.339 --> 00:33:45.740 Um, but when we look at a competition horse's life, that's not the reality of a middle-aged competition horse's life. 00:33:45.900 --> 00:34:03.980 It's very real, real, it's very normal that a middle-aged competition horse has challenges to its gastric health, it has challenges to its musculoskeletal health, its legs, it has saddle fit that can change over time or can you know be good or bad or somewhere in between. 00:34:04.220 --> 00:34:17.420 And so we tend to want to simplify this down because it's easy for us to process when in fact when we're actually looking at the population of horses, it's it can very readily be more than one thing. 00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:32.059 Um, and we all get stuck in this loop of premature closure where we go, there's the answer, got it, bang, give the medication, move on, rather than saying, but hang on, when we gave the medication, did the horse actually get better? 00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:38.220 Not did the ulcers go away on the gastroscope, but did the horse improve? 00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:41.500 Or when we gave the supplement, did the horse improve? 00:34:41.740 --> 00:34:47.660 Not did my wallet get lighter or you know, did I feel better because I had done something? 00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:57.019 It's so interesting you say that because like when we write summary reports and stuff, like we're you talk about trains like the Occam's razor, like what answers is it? 00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:07.900 Because, you know, as as clinical behaviorists, like we're not vets, so we can't diagnose, but what we do is put together a list of differential diagnoses based on the behavior and the science that's there. 00:35:08.220 --> 00:35:29.260 So it's usually there to guide the vet going, like we've done this consultation with this, you know, as say horse, and we can see a gate abnormality because we can't say lameness, but we can, which I always is funny because locomotion is behavior, but you know, when we so it's a gate abnormality because the locomotion isn't correct, you know, um, based on the movement patterns. 00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:44.780 Um, and you know, so what we have a what we what we do is we put together a table of differential diagnosis, and we say, you know, potentially there could be that explains the behavior, muscular skeletal issue, have we got a gastrointestinal issue? 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:50.380 And we just like list them, and then we have our rationale based on the behavior beside it. 00:35:50.540 --> 00:36:21.580 Um, and we're almost trained to go like, don't, you can't just point because we can again, because we're not vets, we can't point to one and we can't sort of, you know, act because we can't diagnose, we can only say the behavior shows us these are based on the research and the science, these are the types of you know underlying medical issues that could potentially be maintaining the behavior, which is a phrase that I like to use a lot, and therefore we I'm going back to the vet and asking for follow-up um, you know, as a diagnosis. 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:47.580 I had one a number of years ago where I listed about five, and the vet was great because the vet went, I'm gonna investigate all five, you know, talking to your point, but just doing one, and the horse had all five, like literally like kissing spines, cushing disease, you know, like we had everything, and it was and it was to your point, you know, Ben, like this horse was like in their mid-20s. 00:36:47.820 --> 00:37:14.140 So, yes, there's a whole lifetime of, you know, I'd say exercise and work and lived experiences, and just the fact that we are getting older is all going to have an impact rather than just going pointing and going, like if we just hadn't looked at the cushions and we'd just done the kit like the kissing spines, like what else were we missing that would have had knock-on effects? 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:26.780 So I just find it so interesting, like just and I would say, I mean, I mean, you maybe you can comment, but I'd say it's very rare these days that we would just do the gastroscopy. 00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:31.100 That you you know, back in the day they would come in, we would just do the gastroscopy, diagnose, move on. 00:37:31.180 --> 00:37:33.020 If we didn't find something, do something else. 00:37:33.100 --> 00:37:37.820 But now I think that's really changed and we're really kind of advocating for that change. 00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:56.540 And we're seeing more and more, I feel like, coming through, and maybe it's different populations, but I I feel like uh uh uh in my residency, maybe it is populations that didn't see that many horses coming in for gastrosopy just for purely for a behavioral history. 00:37:57.260 --> 00:38:06.460 Whereas at Matthew, the years that we were there, that was probably at least 50% of our gastroscopy cases, and I would say more than 50% of our gastroscopy cases. 00:38:06.540 --> 00:38:09.180 Like, you know, it's coming for what are they coming in for? 00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:10.380 They're coming for gastroscopy. 00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:12.140 No, no, no, what are they actually coming in for? 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:13.580 What are they complaining for? 00:38:14.140 --> 00:38:23.420 Because the they've already jumped to the assumption that this horse needs a gastroscopy and they might be the owner or a referring veterinary and we get referrals and your primary exception. 00:38:24.540 --> 00:38:35.260 And that that's not what they're coming in for they're not coming in for gastroscopy, they're coming to see us because there is a complaint and and then we need to find out what that complaint is as Ben mentioned. 00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:46.780

Is it weight loss, is it diarrhea, or is it you know reduced feed intake, uh, or is it behavioral issues and and then expanding, okay, well, what are the behavioral issues and going from there? 00:38:46.860 --> 00:39:06.540 But that's with with having written the editorial that we've been referring to in this session following like being a part of that with Ben certainly has reinforced a change in in my practice and and how I educate, we we train residents as well, and and our our approach to training the residents, medicine surgery and sports medicine. 00:39:07.100 --> 00:39:13.260 Uh the before the horses sedated, just because that's going to interfere with your interpretation of an elameness exam that you do. 00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:23.820 Uh even like we always joke between medicine and and surgery and sports medicine, there's like the medicine lameness exam and and there's like the proper one, you know. 00:39:24.620 --> 00:39:34.940 For us, we're not very good at lameness, so we just want to drive them out on the straight line and at least get you know, put your hands on the horse a little bit, watch them go. 00:39:35.100 --> 00:39:36.700 Is there anything glaringly obvious? 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:39.980 Because if the gastroscopy comes up you know, negative, if you will, i.e. 00:39:40.140 --> 00:39:43.100 we don't find any abnormalities, where's your from here? 00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:45.900 Because oh, your horse doesn't have ulcers, great, go home. 00:39:46.060 --> 00:39:48.380 Like, no, that doesn't address why they came to you. 00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:50.460 So uh having go, okay. 00:39:50.620 --> 00:39:55.900 Well, before we did sedate the horse, we did notice XYZ on on the trot out. 00:39:56.220 --> 00:40:06.780 Um, and then also just a comprehensive history, too, as far as dental disease, if it's a mare, you know, reproductive um uh uh aspects, etc. 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.260 So uh yeah. 00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:12.540 So I'm so glad you said that about the lameness. 00:40:13.100 --> 00:40:13.660 Sorry, Jen. 00:40:14.220 --> 00:40:33.580 I think the other thing that's critical um is that even when we see a horse that comes in and we look at it and we diagnose it with ulcers and it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, and we believe that the ulcers are clinically relevant and drive in the cause of the clinical syndrome or the clinical signs that the owner presents with. 00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:39.500 Our first question should not be what medications does this horse need? 00:40:39.740 --> 00:40:43.180 It should be why are these ulcers there in the first place? 00:40:43.900 --> 00:40:51.340 And particularly when we look at glandular disease, which is a stress-based disease, it's really important. 00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:54.140 You know, behavior is a double side of that coin. 00:40:54.220 --> 00:40:58.860 It can be a driver as well as an outcome, and then you end up in a loop. 00:40:59.100 --> 00:41:13.100 But

we also know there's a really nice study that's not been published yet, but coming out of the UK, over 3,000 horses looking at what factors predict a positive response to treatment or a negative response to treatment. 00:41:13.340 --> 00:41:26.380 And one of the most important things that predicts a negative response to treatment, i.e., a failure to respond to drug therapy, is the concurrent presence of lameness or a sore back. 00:41:26.700 --> 00:41:26.940 Yeah. 00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:42.060 And so not only are you trying to you're shooting yourselves in the foot if you don't treat the underlying condition, because you're going to be spending money on medications that don't actually have a chance to work to the full efficacy because you haven't removed the driver. 00:41:42.380 --> 00:41:52.220 So that just goes back to Amy's point about, you know, making sure we've got these things in our back pocket, even if we think the gastric disease is central. 00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:54.060 And it is an important disease. 00:41:54.220 --> 00:42:03.980 You know, we're not discounting how important it is, but it's an important disease in the context of the fact that it's attached to an entire animal not operating in isolation. 00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:18.460 Yeah, and this has this kind of a viewpoint of it being a holistic overview, I feel like really comes through very strongly in the paper, and I love that because I feel like a lot of research can be very pigeon-holed, and we're talking about this topic, and we looked at these things, it's just this. 00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:26.220 But you've really grappled on, you know, you talk about people's specialisms and the human bias there and perceptions. 00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:51.820 And I love your bit um kind of in the second half of the paper, and it talks about treating the horse like a green horse again, even if it's an established, educated horse who's showing signs and you're going through the behavior modification with the medicine, to give it a chance and treat it like a green horse and do it slowly, and you make comments about you know being less punitive and being a bit nicer to the horse and giving it some grace, period, to go through that. 00:42:52.140 --> 00:42:57.580 And I just it's a really nice theme that I feel like is coming through a lot of research, which is the human element. 00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:11.340 That maybe in you know, 10-15 years ago it was very much the horse is doing this, the medicine does this, the surgery does this, and now we're starting to have a few more conversations on how much the human is actually interfering or benefiting certain things. 00:43:11.580 --> 00:43:19.980 Um, and what you've spoken about there really speaks to a certain frame that we work to in the clinical animal behaviorist world is function, motivation, maintenance. 00:43:20.060 --> 00:43:21.500 So, what is the function of the behavior? 00:43:21.580 --> 00:43:23.580 How is it serving the horse or the animal? 00:43:23.740 --> 00:43:24.860 What's the motivation? 00:43:25.020 --> 00:43:26.380 Why do they want to perform it? 00:43:26.540 --> 00:43:30.940 Because it might not be a good motivation, it could be fear, it could be anxiety, it could be anything else. 00:43:31.100 --> 00:43:33.580 But then the real big one is what's maintaining it. 00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:34.940 Why does it keep happening? 00:43:35.020 --> 00:44:00.940 So, when Barbara mentioned earlier about having a spontaneous regression, it's that maintenance factor that points us back to the medical, and this is why having this being a collaborative approach and working with different professionals is so important for us, and it's why it makes me so happy reading it in this paper because it speaks really strongly to this collaboration and being aware of your own professional bias because it's very easy for us to go, oh, behavior, behavior modification plan. 00:44:01.580 --> 00:44:05.660 Um but you've got to keep those lines of communication open. 00:44:05.900 --> 00:44:11.980 Um, so the question, the roundabout question I have on this, is um where does that mindset come from? 00:44:12.140 --> 00:44:22.380 For so I'll start with you, Amy, having this bigger awareness of the human psychology and human bias, and is that something you've come across through all your wonderful travels and professional career? 00:44:22.620 --> 00:44:24.860 Is it a conversation you guys have a lot? 00:44:25.180 --> 00:44:30.620 Oh, I'm not sure where does start with that so much. 00:44:30.860 --> 00:44:32.300 Can I actually let Ben? 00:44:32.860 --> 00:44:33.500 Yeah, please do. 00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:35.420 No, I didn't let Ben have a guess. 00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:43.740 It wasn't a teachery like picking on picking on Amy, like I appreciate it. 00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:44.060 It's good. 00:44:44.140 --> 00:44:44.540 I like that. 00:44:44.700 --> 00:44:53.100 We talked about um we talked about uh you know horse vets being the same all round, and and um the other thing that I think is really important is we're all reflecting. 00:44:53.740 --> 00:44:56.940 Of the environment that we came through, the system we came through. 00:44:57.020 --> 00:45:04.940 And so, you know, Amy was lucky enough to be brought in through the natural horsemanship world and have probably that sort of natural alignment. 00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:12.860 I came in through uh through initially through the thoroughbred racehorse world, and it was very mechanistic and very sort of black and white. 00:45:13.100 --> 00:45:21.340 And there was, there was, and I would argue still is in many parts of the industry, never a consideration to stop and think about it from the horse's perspective. 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:23.500 It was always about you talk about motivators. 00:45:23.580 --> 00:45:25.260 It was always about what do we get out of it? 00:45:25.420 --> 00:45:27.100 What is the motivator for us? 00:45:27.260 --> 00:45:29.260 And and then I

did a little bit of work. 00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:33.820 I've got some mates who are into Australian style courses, and and they probably drift more in that direction. 00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:35.740 They sort of have a little bit of both. 00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:55.500 And then it's, I think, just uh going to conferences, going, having conversations with people, sitting through things that you don't agree with, um, yeah, but and getting all internally frustrated and grumpy and rah-and then walking away and going, Yeah, but they might have a point, and maybe I can reflect on that. 00:45:55.740 --> 00:46:05.500 And so, you know, I think things like you know, we use the word holistic, and it's it can be a really dirty word in veterinary medicine when we say holistic. 00:46:05.580 --> 00:46:16.060 Um, I think we're talking about holistic here, but we're talking about holistic in this concept of whole horse health, um, not necessarily more in terms of holistic medicine. 00:46:16.220 --> 00:46:22.780 Not that I'm necessarily inherently against that, but just um but that idea of looking at the whole horse. 00:46:22.940 --> 00:46:30.300 Um, and the other one that you know often gets a lot of negative press is is um positive reinforcement. 00:46:30.540 --> 00:46:35.740 And it's certainly how not how I was trained to handle horses. 00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:39.340 Um, I was trained, let's call it traditionalist. 00:46:39.740 --> 00:46:52.780 Um, but we've been working recently on our farm with off-the-track retired thoroughbreds, um, and they're a particular group and they have their particular background and experiences that puts them in a certain frame of mind. 00:46:53.020 --> 00:46:59.180 And it took me a while to realize that you can't you can't scare a horse that's scared into not being scared. 00:46:59.340 --> 00:46:59.580 Yes. 00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:03.180 Um but you know, how often do we see that approach? 00:47:03.260 --> 00:47:07.500 We can force them to shut down, we can force them to submit, we can force them to get the job done. 00:47:07.580 --> 00:47:11.340 And I think of how many times in my career I've successfully done that. 00:47:11.500 --> 00:47:15.580 Yeah, but it it solved my immediate problem, but it didn't solve the big problem. 00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:22.380 So I don't know, it's a very long answer to say I think we just need to be willing to park our egos a little bit. 00:47:22.460 --> 00:47:25.580 And I say that as someone with a very healthy ego. 00:47:25.900 --> 00:47:28.940 Um just just ask my wife. 00:47:29.180 --> 00:47:40.700 Um, but um, you know, to park our egos and to stop and go, just because we've done it, did it, or were taught it, doesn't mean that's what we should continue to do going forward. 00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:45.180 Doesn't make us a bad person, but we need to be willing to change. 00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:53.660 And for me, the single biggest change was a shift into starting to think, how does the horse experience this, not what I'm what am I experiencing, or what am I trying to get out of this? 00:47:53.900 --> 00:47:57.100 Try to look at it from the horse's perspective to the best of my ability. 00:47:57.420 --> 00:48:15.260 Yeah, like you know, when uh as say if we go in and we like, you know, as they assess a horse and we think that there's an underlying medical issue and we're going back to the vet, and sometimes, you know, as they we'll get a it's like, oh, this is just it's just mild, you know, like it wouldn't be explaining the behavior. 00:48:15.660 --> 00:48:39.740 And I I blame Descartes for this, you know, like you know, I think therefore I am that the brain is not part of the body, even though it it is, like that it's still an organ in the body, and ultimately the behavior of that animal tells us how they're feeling, and if there is an underlying medical issue and they are performing that behavior, then they're the ones who tell us that this is uncomfortable. 00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:46.940 We don't get to decide it's only mild, they're telling us by their behavior, no, do you know what this is an issue? 00:48:47.020 --> 00:48:49.820 Like, you know, it's it's it's them that tell us. 00:48:49.980 --> 00:49:02.380 Um, and I think to your point, I say, with with positive reinforcement and the science behind it, and as you say, like this can't train the horse not to be scared as say, like, you know, by scaring them more, like I love that. 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:15.340 And like, I don't think people appreciate that, like, you know, behavior and psychology and behavioral science, like, are sciences, you know, we do have research there, you know. 00:49:15.500 --> 00:49:26.780 It's not like I don't go out and train Barbara's magical method, you know, it's based on you talked at the very start, Ben, about like the the you know, we're standing on the backs of giants, like this is it. 00:49:26.860 --> 00:49:37.740 It's just like all of this research has been done before, you know, but before me, like you know, I I'm taking that learning and education and bringing it out into the world, you know. 00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:39.100 I haven't come up with this. 00:49:39.180 --> 00:49:43.820 It's like I'm standing on the backs of giants to support these animals as best as I can. 00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:46.700 So I just yeah, I just love that. 00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:56.140 And yeah, it just it's it's hard to hear things that you know go against your ideas and stuff. 00:49:56.300 --> 00:49:59.260 And I mean, this is why we called it tricky, you know. 00:49:59.340 --> 00:50:06.620 I say dangerous at both ends tricky in the middle, because being on either end of the spectrum is very hard, but it's tricky to be in the middle. 00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:19.820 Um, and when you were talking about it, it reminds me of a phrase when you're listening to other people talk about different things, and it it you know, it annoys you, is you know, that idea of like the truth will set

you free, but first it'll piss you off, yeah. 00:50:20.060 --> 00:50:35.900 You know, so it's that like you'll you'll hear it and you'll be so annoyed because it challenges part of who you are, but then as you say, if you if you're able to just sit with it for a bit, you know, it can be really freeing to go, hmm, okay. 00:50:36.220 --> 00:50:39.420 What if I did just trade change this ever so slightly? 00:50:39.580 --> 00:50:45.420 What if I did explore this a little bit more, you know, and it can be a really freeing experience to do that. 00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:55.100 Yeah, and I think at the core of it is that horses are incredible communicators, but like all communication, it only works if someone's listening. 00:50:55.340 --> 00:51:08.060 And and I think you know, so many people will put themselves out there as great horsemen or horse people because they can get a horse to do what they want it to do, yeah, but they're not actually listening to the horse. 00:51:08.140 --> 00:51:11.740 They're they're it's their conversation, they're talking at the horse, not with the horse. 00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:25.660 And and you know, there's obviously levels of that, and and you know, you can take it to an extreme where it gets it's problematic when you take it to a very extreme that you know it's there are two of you in the conversation, they have to listen to you too. 00:51:25.820 --> 00:51:35.420 Um that is a you know, it has to be a mutually respectful relationship, but that mutually respectful relationship is around clear communication in signals and listening. 00:51:35.580 --> 00:51:42.220 And I think it's that listening bit that we've probably not been picking up on as much as we talk about now. 00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:54.220 And consistency too, I think, but especially in the behaviour space and especially go back to the comment around thinking of a trained horse as a green horse again. 00:51:55.020 --> 00:52:04.060 And when you are trained, and and this is where I I'm acutely aware of my limitations, and and that's why I love working at a university because I've got a team of other specialists around me. 00:52:04.140 --> 00:52:09.740 So I know I'm not the best in lateness, and I know I'm not the best in dentistry, but boy, I've got some good people around me who are. 00:52:10.460 --> 00:52:19.740 And uh when we come and I think Ben touches on the treatment side of oh, not asking what do we treat with, but why is this disease here? 00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:34.300 Um and then not just that we treat with uh medicine, but that we treat with a often if they are presenting for behavioral issues, that's why they're getting scoped and and that's what we've identified disease or then how are we going to address the behavior? 00:52:34.620 --> 00:52:49.660 And that's why I know I'm limited in my understanding of what tools I can provide our clients with and for uh uh especially with the sort of retraining aspects potentially, um, the the communications there, but the consistency there as well. 00:52:49.740 --> 00:52:56.060 Because there's no point doing it one way for a little bit and then just uh can't be bothered, you know, going back to old habits. 00:52:56.780 --> 00:52:58.220 It is hard work. 00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:04.300 But I think we could also break it down and make it really simple too, because there's layers, so many layers to this. 00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:09.660 Um, my my absolute favorite when we talk about positive reinforcements, pre-exercise feeding. 00:53:09.740 --> 00:53:13.100 There are very few horses that don't like a nice meal. 00:53:13.340 --> 00:53:20.380 And um, you know, and just the and it's great for ulcers to pre-exercise feed them as well. 00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:23.820 We restore those normal defense mechanisms so we've got a benefit from there. 00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:28.220 But pre-exercise feeding is a very powerful positive reinforcement tool. 00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:40.380 If we have a horse that's developed that sour behavior, that undesirable behavior during tacking up because it doesn't like being in the cross ties or the tie-up stall or whatever, change the narrative. 00:53:40.620 --> 00:53:55.660 Instead of it being a bare place with a set of cross ties where the horse has nothing else to think about but what is coming, the doom that is come in, give it something it likes, like some pre-exercise loosen alfalfa hay or alfalfa cubes or something like that. 00:53:55.740 --> 00:53:59.340 And all of a sudden, that horse's whole mindset changes. 00:53:59.580 --> 00:54:08.300 Um, so I think we can get in, you know, they can get more complicated, but we can also make it really, really simple to make small incremental changes. 00:54:08.380 --> 00:54:10.860 Well, they're not small, they're large incremental changes. 00:54:11.020 --> 00:54:13.500 And scratches and grooming is the other one. 00:54:13.580 --> 00:54:14.780 They're not motorbikes. 00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:18.220 If you wanted to jump on it and ride it, get a motorbike. 00:54:18.460 --> 00:54:19.420 Get a motorbike. 00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:31.740 Oh, Ben, you think I like you're speaking our language made around an earlier one? 00:54:31.900 --> 00:54:34.780 Yeah, we had there's a few a few podcasts ago. 00:54:34.940 --> 00:54:37.260 I got really annoyed about something, and I just came out. 00:54:37.420 --> 00:54:39.420 If you want that, just buy yourself a motorbike. 00:54:39.980 --> 00:54:42.540 Stop horses, get a bike, and carry on. 00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:44.140 You're talking about simplicity. 00:54:44.300 --> 00:54:45.900 There's, and we all have an acronym. 00:54:46.060 --> 00:54:49.900 Have you guys come across ABC antecedent behavior consequence? 00:54:50.140 --> 00:54:50.940 I think so. 00:54:51.180 --> 00:54:57.500 So it's it's a really nice acronym, and I do it a lot with clients because ABC one, two, three, super simple. 00:54:57.900 --> 00:54:59.980 Antecedent is whatever happens first. 00:55:00.140 -->

00:55:03.100 It can be the weather, it can be attacked, it can be a person. 00:55:03.180 --> 00:55:06.380 It's just something that predicts a behavior or you know causes it. 00:55:06.700 --> 00:55:14.780 Behavior is the behavior, whatever the horse performs, and then you have your consequence, and that can be something positive or negative, as in a positive experience or a negative experience. 00:55:15.020 --> 00:55:19.980 And what you're talking about there been is changing the consequence and the association with that environment. 00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:31.900 So the horse is associating antecedent across ties, behavior, grumpy behavior, girthy, kicking, biting, whatever consequence or the behavior might be getting tacked up, and the consequence being an unpleasant one. 00:55:32.060 --> 00:55:35.980 Maybe it's conflict with the human, maybe it's discomfort from the girth, maybe whatever. 00:55:36.220 --> 00:55:42.220 And you're talking about changing that consequence into a more positive experience, good reward to positive reinforcement. 00:55:42.460 --> 00:55:47.740 And now the whole cycle, the emotional driver, the emotional experience can be flipped and changed. 00:55:47.980 --> 00:55:57.260 And I just love that this is the beauty and the annoyance of human language is we're all talking about the same thing but in different ways, and it gets lost in translation. 00:55:58.060 --> 00:56:08.220 Ben said earlier, and Jen, I actually wrote it down, and I'm so glad you said A B C because, like Ben, you said it earlier, you went cause-effect outcome, which is exactly the ABC. 00:56:08.540 --> 00:56:17.580 It's you know, we're just saying it in a different way, and it's like, as Jen says, it's like we're all just trying to communicate and getting lost in the lexicon. 00:56:17.900 --> 00:56:19.660 Yeah, I and I have to laugh. 00:56:19.820 --> 00:56:39.820 Like, I mean, I I'm a rough, grumpy, middle-aged Australian man now, and um, and I sit there and I go around and lecture to people that they should be, you know, playing music, certain types of music, and giving their horses massages, um, because it'll make their horse feel better and perform better because there's data that supports that as well. 00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:42.300 It's so the human gets an outcome out of it. 00:56:42.460 --> 00:56:50.300 And I did this talk one day in um uh a client's place, they'd hosted this very generously, big, beautiful stable, big, beautiful bar. 00:56:50.380 --> 00:56:56.140 And this fellow was a very successful dentist, and he came down to me afterwards and he goes, I feel seen. 00:56:56.300 --> 00:56:57.260 And I said, What do you mean? 00:56:57.420 --> 00:57:04.300 He goes, Every Sunday I take my horse for a ride, and I come back and we put the classical low, relaxed classical music on. 00:57:04.380 --> 00:57:11.980 I put the solarium on for the horse and I just groom it for an hour and a half, and it's my relaxation before I start my works week. 00:57:12.140

--> 00:57:13.180 And I said, How's your horse feeling? 00:57:13.260 --> 00:57:15.020 He goes, It's amazing. 00:57:15.980 --> 00:57:18.540 The horse loves it, and he's like, you know, I feel seen. 00:57:18.700 --> 00:57:22.700 I've you know, the horse is having the experience as well, the positive experience. 00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:28.380 And we're that's the other thing we're taught is to be very cautious of anthropomorphism. 00:57:28.540 --> 00:57:37.500 Um, and we have but there are so I was gonna say, and anthemorphosizing is funny because it's like I as a word, it's just like I'm just like, but we're animals too, yeah. 00:57:37.660 --> 00:57:39.420 You know, so I'm like, yeah. 00:57:39.660 --> 00:57:50.540 So we have to be careful of being absolutely literal about it, but particularly when we think about emotive states and stuff like that, I think that we have to be willing to operate at least in the same spheres. 00:57:50.780 --> 00:58:05.260 Um, and and when we're talking about highly sentient animals and more and more, you know, into the zoo animals, the dolphins, and these, you know, extremely sentient animals, they are behaving at very, very high levels. 00:58:05.420 --> 00:58:09.660 Um, so I don't think anthropomor anthropomorphism is necessarily a dirty word either. 00:58:09.900 --> 00:58:19.100 Yeah, I don't think it's and so I always say I think I was just like we're animals too, and the the connection, like, and we're having emotional experiences with these animals as well. 00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:23.180 Like, and again And they're having emotional experiences with us, with us, yeah. 00:58:23.260 --> 00:58:25.740 And I was about to say it's so funny you say that about the dentist. 00:58:25.820 --> 00:58:29.180 I've given myself, I've made a rod for my own back this summer, right? 00:58:29.420 --> 00:58:38.860 You talk about scratches, so the field that my own horse is in, like I'm on a commercial livery yard, and um wish I had my own, but the dream. 00:58:39.100 --> 00:58:45.740 Um and uh quite a young green horse got put in at the start of the summer, so reactive. 00:58:45.820 --> 00:58:53.900 Like I'd move and he'd like throw his head up and like jump to the side, you know, like any kind of movement with my hands or you know, really, really active. 00:58:53.980 --> 00:58:56.620 And I was like, Oh, sweetie, you know. 00:58:56.780 --> 00:59:03.020 So, like just really slowly kind of approaching him, just start giving him wither scratches within about a week. 00:59:03.260 --> 00:59:05.100 This horse is glued to me. 00:59:05.260 --> 00:59:06.140 Do you know what I mean? 00:59:06.220 --> 00:59:11.020 Like, literally, like to the point where I went out the other day to go get my own horse. 00:59:11.180 --> 00:59:14.220 My own horse didn't give a fine, frankly. 00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:18.380 She was just like, she's like, Oh, there she is, you know. 00:59:18.540 --> 00:59:29.260 But this other little Geldane who's about four or five years

old, he called to me and came tritrotting across the field just for scratches, and it broke my heart, you know. 00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:47.900 I was like, and of course, my own horse then was like, Well, hold on a second, what you know, and yeah, now I want, now I want to know, but like just that little experience of like, you know, and I say, I, you know, I doubt he's had that from anybody. 00:59:47.980 --> 01:00:02.780 Like he's he's four or five years old, and he's probably not had that experience with a human, and then all of a sudden, you know, as say he suddenly had that experience with a human and is going, wow, oh, this is a really nice experience, you know. 01:00:02.860 --> 01:00:06.300 Like, I actually do would like to spend, you know, time with people. 01:00:06.460 --> 01:00:14.140 It's like, why would we not want to make that experience with a human being really pleasant for a horse as much as we can? 01:00:14.380 --> 01:00:18.540 They are more likely to work with us, and it's so good for us. 01:00:18.620 --> 01:00:22.940 Like, as I it broke my heart because I was like, I just want to take him now. 01:00:23.020 --> 01:00:26.540 And I'm like, can't have another horse, can't have another horse, can't have another horse, you know. 01:00:26.780 --> 01:00:38.140 Um, and then as you say, watching the jealousy with my own horse, who suddenly wanted to know, um, you know, and then told him because she's the mayor, she told him very quickly where to go. 01:00:38.220 --> 01:00:44.780 And I was like, don't be mean, like he gets loved too, but you're still anthromorphosizing, right? 01:00:44.860 --> 01:00:56.220 But it's anthromorphosizing that relationship with those horses for me during the summer has been good for my mental health and creating a bond with them. 01:00:56.460 --> 01:01:15.900 You know, if we make it too sterile, then we risk, you know, we risk not seeing them as individual sentient animals, to your point, Ben, with their own emotions, and we risk not caring for them and just seeing them, as you say, as motorbikes rather than living, breathing creatures. 01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:25.580 Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought up the idea that your horse is on a livery yard, because we often get stuck in this loop of my horse is on a livery yard, I can't. 01:01:26.140 --> 01:01:29.660 And you say, Well, we could do this, my horse is on a livery yard, and I can't. 01:01:29.900 --> 01:01:31.980 And that's a you know, that's just a brick wall. 01:01:32.140 --> 01:01:43.420 And whenever I give my talks, I always talk about, you know, I will talk about tools in the toolbox, and I always say at the start of my talks when I'm talking about prevention and stuff like that for ulcers, is I'm gonna give you a list of whole things that you could do. 01:01:43.580 --> 01:01:45.660 I accept that you can't always do these things. 01:01:45.820 --> 01:01:47.500 I have a 160-acre farm. 01:01:47.660 --> 01:01:49.660 My horses live outside 24-7. 01:01:50.140 --> 01:01:54.300 We've got shelters, we've got hay, it's safe to feed them brown bales in Australia. 01:01:54.460 --> 01:01:54.780 Great. 01:01:54.940 --> 01:01:57.420 I get that you don't necessarily have that. 01:01:57.740 --> 01:02:07.100 But what I'm gonna try to do is give you a list of things that you could do, and then at the end of that, what don't focus on what you can't do, focus on what you can do. 01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:21.180 And I gave a talk one one day in Los Angeles of all places, and this very sort of snooty lady who was clearly the trainer got up and said, Well, that might be easy in Australia, but we can't do that. 01:02:21.260 --> 01:02:22.300 This is Los Angeles. 01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:25.900 And I said, Well, you can't do this, this, and this, but you can do this, this, this, and this. 01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:29.500 Do you remember I said at the start that there would be things you can do? 01:02:29.980 --> 01:02:44.380 And I think your example about scratching the horse is a fantastic example of not focusing on what you can't control, but focusing on what you can control, which is great advice across the board for horses, humans, and everyone. 01:02:44.540 --> 01:02:45.340 Straight from Dr. 01:02:45.580 --> 01:02:45.980 Phil. 01:02:46.300 --> 01:02:51.180 Um, it's did you did you genuinely take that from Dr. 01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:51.500 Phil? 01:02:51.660 --> 01:02:52.300 I think that's a Dr. 01:02:52.460 --> 01:02:53.020 Phil one. 01:02:55.180 --> 01:02:56.540 Just shout out. 01:02:56.620 --> 01:02:57.660 Hopefully, they get they might give us some. 01:02:58.140 --> 01:02:58.620 My favorite Dr. 01:02:58.700 --> 01:03:02.620 Phil one is you can be right or you can get what you want, but you can't be you can't have both. 01:03:02.860 --> 01:03:03.820 Oh, it's not bad. 01:03:03.980 --> 01:03:04.540 It's not bad. 01:03:04.860 --> 01:03:07.100 I say can I just can I just geek out? 01:03:07.180 --> 01:03:12.060 Sorry, quick, on the the human behavior because what we're talking about anthropomorphism, and it gets a dirty wreck. 01:03:12.140 --> 01:03:15.100 But you say we're humans as well, and we are a species in itself. 01:03:15.180 --> 01:03:20.140 And for as long as humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years, we've communicated through stories. 01:03:20.380 --> 01:03:24.300 Storytelling is so important for us as a species to communicate to one another. 01:03:24.940 --> 01:03:37.500 And anthropomorphism is a type of storytelling because we're trying to make sense of the world around us by telling a story about another sentient being's experience, and that is so important for us to a way for us to communicate to each other. 01:03:37.740 --> 01:03:46.060 So when I'm with a client or a vet or anyone who's anthropomorphizing, I I quite I like it because it's giving me an idea into their emotional experience. 01:03:46.220 --> 01:04:03.660 So if a client is telling me a story about their horse and

they're talking about the horse being a dickhead or an arsehole or they're taking a piss out of me, those are all really defensive words, and what I'm actually hearing is that owner's really scared, they've had a scary experience, they are coming from a place of fear and defensiveness. 01:04:03.900 --> 01:04:12.620 They might not use those words because they haven't identified that emotion in themselves, but the anthropomorphism is still such a powerful communication tool. 01:04:12.940 --> 01:04:22.140 So I did used to live in that world where no, no, no, no storytelling, no anthropomorphism is bad, you know, you can't get inside the horse's head, and then we're talking about the self-reflection. 01:04:22.460 --> 01:04:25.740 I've come to the point where I'm like, you know what, this is such a great tool. 01:04:25.900 --> 01:04:32.380 Because even if it's not reflecting the horse's experience accurately, I'm getting such an insight into the human in front of me. 01:04:32.620 --> 01:04:37.100 And ultimately, if we can't affect the human, we won't improve the horse's welfare. 01:04:40.620 --> 01:04:46.620 And it gives you it gives you so much more information about, you know, like, and I'm sure you know you guys know this. 01:04:46.940 --> 01:05:08.940 I say being in general practice, like you have like you know, a horse and an owner coming in, they're they're stressed, they're emotive, you know, like you're trying to ask questions enough to like get to a point where you're like getting enough information from them, and it's like if I go into you know, I say like with you know my dog or my cat, and I go in with my husband, you know, he's doing the storytelling, right? 01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:38.060 So he as Jen says, he's just like, well, okay, you know, we once we we we gave the cat some of the salmon, he loves his cat, so he gave the cat some of the salmon, and then he started like doing this weird pee behavior, and I'm like, shh, you know, I'm like, I was like, he's fine, like you know, and I'm listing in a really like like clinical way of being like, you know, we had this, it was two days, like we had one vomit, like you know, struggle urination, like I'd say, like good bright alert, you know, just to try and break it down. 01:05:38.140 --> 01:05:42.380 But really, like it's the emotive human person. 01:05:42.540 --> 01:05:53.660 Like, I'm I'm fairly clinical in that in perspective, but it's like my husband who's struggling with the emotion of the animal that he cares about, and we miss that piece as well. 01:05:53.820 --> 01:06:15.020 Because as Jen says, it's like when we talk about like gastric ulcers and the performance idea as well, like we're you know, and these behaviors horses are big, horses are scary, and a lot of the time the owners are scared around their horse because they're performing this behavior, and they want solutions because they want to have a good relationship with their horse. 01:06:15.100 --> 01:06:25.820 We talk about connection, you know, we talk about trust, we talk about, you know, having that, you know, you you said it earlier, Ben, like, you know, um that partnership. 01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:27.580 We talk about that all the time. 01:06:27.740 --> 01:06:32.780 So people don't want behavioral problems with their horses because they want to have that relationship. 01:06:32.940 --> 01:06:53.020 Um, and at the same time, because of the traditional aspect of it, it's as you say, it's just like you can't scare these horses into it, particularly if you're scared yourself, you know, because you're worried about it, you know, like it's not going to improve that relationship, and it's just going to make everyone miserable in that situation. 01:06:53.660 --> 01:07:02.860 Yeah, and I think um I think encouraging from a veterin perspective, encouraging people to write down those experiences. 01:07:03.020 --> 01:07:11.340 Um, because I help for for a lot of people, maybe like your husband, it helps them form it into a more coherent stream when they've had a chance to write it down. 01:07:11.420 --> 01:07:35.420 And it also is a, you know, it's one of those incredibly powerful self-reflection tools that ties into what Jen was saying, is that if you're writing this down, whether you'll admit it or not, but you will probably hopefully have, if you're not a sociopath, have some level of self-reflection that um, you know, that that then opens the conversation, opens the receptiveness to the solution that might be presented to you. 01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:44.860 I I really enjoyed that you brought in the the ridden pain ethogram into the into this paper because it's something that's you know, we've talked about a good bit. 01:07:44.940 --> 01:07:55.020 And ethograms from you know, just explaining the behavioral side of things, they're a collection of behaviors that we actually like study and we categorize, and they're really important for behaviorists. 01:07:55.100 --> 01:08:30.779 Um, and there's a couple of them out there, like you know, we've got I say the horse grimace scale, um, and then there's also the the equine discomfort ethogram, um, both of which like I'll use quite a good bit like in my own practice, but the ridden horse pain ethogram, you know, is something that's gotten a lot more popularized, but you know, in your paper you sort of caution against interpreting the pain ethogram without considering the rider's ability, the training history, the breed of the animal, and I say the arousal, you know, I say stress levels. 01:08:30.939 --> 01:08:35.899 Like, why did you want to bring that in to the paper? 01:08:36.060 --> 01:08:39.899 Um, like how much can the rider change the picture that we're looking at? 01:08:41.739 --> 01:08:59.020 Uh so yeah, for the for that, there are a lot of assumptions to to try to have the conformity and and consistency when you're using a developed like program, if you will, across different individual horses. 01:09:00.539 -->

01:09:07.100 To make to draw comparisons, you want to reduce the variables because that's like a pretty standard uh principle and research. 01:09:08.060 --> 01:09:16.140 And to reduce the variability is or to make assumptions that you apply this technique to uh horses and riders who are experienced. 01:09:16.699 --> 01:09:23.659 It would be folly to try to apply that to a green horse and it's a plus or minus and/or yeah, a green rider combination. 01:09:24.780 --> 01:09:30.140 And I think going into about horse behavior, there's only so many ways that they can express themselves. 01:09:30.220 --> 01:09:44.780 And I think when we talk about differentials, you've got is it if there is an undesirable behavior, is it is it pain or is it just a behavioral aspect that the horse doesn't know what you're asking for? 01:09:45.260 --> 01:09:45.739 Frustration. 01:09:46.539 --> 01:09:48.140 Yeah, frustration is not stress. 01:09:48.380 --> 01:09:51.420 There's the FAS scale, uh fear, anxiety, and stress. 01:09:51.739 --> 01:09:55.420 Is it is it just normal expression of behavior, how they're feeling in the moment? 01:09:55.980 --> 01:10:07.100 Uh and so uh making that assumption that that you apply this ethogram to experienced horses so that you can take a little bit of that that element of yeah, fear, frustration, anxiety, stress. 01:10:08.060 --> 01:10:10.140 No, I'd say like sorry, go ahead, Ben. 01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:17.900 No, I was gonna say I think it's you know important to recognize what I love about the ethogram is it's given us a common language. 01:10:18.140 --> 01:10:24.140 It is something that we now can all talk about the same thing, which probably those other ethograms haven't. 01:10:24.300 --> 01:10:30.699 I mean, we talk about them in our own circles, but more broadly it hasn't, they don't really resonate as easily. 01:10:30.940 --> 01:10:40.539 Um, so it's given us a common language, it's quantifiable, it is something that we can, it can be a massive time saver, so or resource saver. 01:10:40.619 --> 01:10:49.340 So, you know, the horses expressing behavior during ride-in, very hard to assess that at a vet clinic, very hard to assess that in a foreign environment where there's a lot of other stimuli. 01:10:49.500 --> 01:11:02.220 But an owner doing a standard five-minute dressage test and using that as a benchmark, um, particularly if we can standardize those conditions and track an animal over time, um, can be really, really powerful. 01:11:02.300 --> 01:11:03.980 And AI is really gonna help that. 01:11:04.060 --> 01:11:10.140 There's an there's an AI app that's on its way out that um that that's gonna take that to the next level. 01:11:10.220 --> 01:11:14.539 Um, and I'll declare a conflict of interest that I'm an advisor to that company. 01:11:14.860 --> 01:11:19.820 Um, I'm a technical advisor to them, but I I believe it's gonna be really valuable. 01:11:19.980 --> 01:11:23.020 I think the caution has to be about being absolute. 01:11:23.180 --> 01:11:30.380 Okay, is the number six, seven, eight, or nine versus what's this horse doing over time under these conditions? 01:11:30.619 --> 01:11:43.420 Um, so looking at trends and monitoring, I think like many of these things will be a lot more powerful, and then recognizing, like Amy said, is it other behaviors like frustration in an untrained horse that just doesn't know what's wanted of it? 01:11:43.500 --> 01:12:01.980 So it's lifting its head, and a lot of the central tenants of the horse ethogram are around head position and bit and vertical and to the side, and a lot they're trained behaviors, they're not behaviors that our Australian stop horses naturally pick up a bit, hold their head in the vertical, and hold their frame. 01:12:02.060 --> 01:12:04.220 You know, the off-the-track thoroughbreds don't do that. 01:12:04.460 --> 01:12:22.780 Maybe a warm flight might pick it up more naturally, but um recognizing that they're trained behaviors, so I I think it still remains a valuable tool, but we have to put some caveats in about being absolute with it across all populations, you know, with hard thresholds and stuff like that. 01:12:23.180 --> 01:12:25.739 And it's uh oh, sorry. 01:12:26.300 --> 01:12:30.780 No, no, it's because they just to just to while it flies before it flies out of my head. 01:12:30.860 --> 01:12:40.140 And to your point, like Ben, like as like ultimately it's like we hate to hear this as horse people, but like bits cause pain and discomfort. 01:12:40.380 --> 01:12:42.940 Like we we see this across the board. 01:12:43.100 --> 01:12:46.860 Like again, it's the the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off. 01:12:47.020 --> 01:12:49.420 Like we people will go, no, no, no, no, no, no. 01:12:49.500 --> 01:12:52.140 And it's just like research after research after research. 01:12:52.220 --> 01:12:58.220 If you put a big bit of metal in a horse's mouth and pull on it, it's not going to be comfortable. 01:12:58.699 --> 01:12:59.900 Okay, sleepy slow. 01:13:00.220 --> 01:13:01.100 Sleepy slow. 01:13:01.340 --> 01:13:03.500 What's the difference between pain and discomfort? 01:13:03.739 --> 01:13:04.699 But well, this is it. 01:13:04.780 --> 01:13:11.180 Like it's like the only reason I yeah, and the only reason I say discomfort is because pain we talk about the human stuff. 01:13:11.260 --> 01:13:14.699 It's like when I'm talking to clients, if I say pain, they get upset. 01:13:14.780 --> 01:13:20.619 Yeah, so we say discomfort because it's minimize, but then we're minimalizing the animal's pain and experience. 01:13:20.940 --> 01:13:22.539 Yeah, so we all do it. 01:13:22.699 --> 01:13:26.780 We all we don't want to use the word pain because it's a emotive trigger word, yeah. 01:13:26.940 --> 01:13:34.860 But when we're actually talking about pain-based behaviors, we all should stop using the word discomfort and trying to minimize that horse's experience. 01:13:35.020 --> 01:13:36.300 And it's I

love that. 01:13:36.539 --> 01:13:38.220 I mean, it's a hot button topic. 01:13:38.300 --> 01:13:41.579 If you want to set people off, is say, where's the line? 01:13:41.659 --> 01:13:42.539 Because there isn't one. 01:13:42.699 --> 01:13:50.940 I mean, it is yeah, pain is a synonym, discomfort's a synonym of pain, maybe maybe a synonym of mild pain, but it's still a synonym of pain. 01:13:51.020 --> 01:13:53.100 Yeah, that's used in polite context. 01:13:53.739 --> 01:14:05.420 It's like we say, yeah, as I say, like if I see you talked about the ethogram earlier, like you know, as say that, as say the ridden pain ethogram's given us a language to say the other ethograms haven't. 01:14:05.500 --> 01:14:13.500 So, like if I'm describing the other ethogram, I'm like, okay, the right, you know, hind leg is meteor lateral imbalance when we're walking down a slope. 01:14:13.579 --> 01:14:22.539 Oh, it's definitely it's abducting, it's not abducting or adducting correctly, like you know, on on a turn, like those aren't accessible to people. 01:14:22.619 --> 01:14:31.980 Like, yes, that might hint that there's some other underlying muscular skeletal, you know, issue, but as you say, it's not as accessible for for other people, and they can't kind of understand that. 01:14:32.380 --> 01:14:33.260 Or is it sore? 01:14:33.659 --> 01:14:34.140 Exactly. 01:14:34.300 --> 01:14:34.699 Thank you. 01:14:34.780 --> 01:14:36.699 I was Ben, you're on my way. 01:14:37.100 --> 01:14:38.460 I was about to say the stiff one. 01:14:38.539 --> 01:14:49.820 It's like I say, I have physiotherapist friends as well, and they'll always say, like, oh, you know, they're a little bit stiff, because they're struggling to say the horse is in pain or they're sore. 01:14:50.060 --> 01:15:00.380 So stiff is one that always gets thrown in because it's a more palatable phrase for us, um, than talking about pain. 01:15:00.539 --> 01:15:05.579 And I can see it when I'm talking, you know, to clients, and I do it all the time. 01:15:05.659 --> 01:15:07.340 Like, and maybe I'll stop saying discomfort. 01:15:07.420 --> 01:15:08.460 I think you've won me over, Ben. 01:15:08.539 --> 01:15:10.060 Like, maybe I just row into it. 01:15:10.140 --> 01:15:16.780 But when you're trying to talk to a client, you know, and I'm saying, like, I usually say, like, I think there's an owie there. 01:15:17.020 --> 01:15:32.539 Like sometimes I say that as well, you know, and I know that sounds really like patronizing, but it's like it's something that it a it kind of brings them on, it stops the emotion, but it still helps kind of bring them, you know. 01:15:32.860 --> 01:15:39.900 It's just like they do this and they turn, and then we've got a bit of an owie, like, and we need to figure out what that owie is, you know. 01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:43.100 Um, and maybe that's just as bad as discomfort. 01:15:43.180 --> 01:15:43.659 I don't know. 01:15:43.820 --> 01:15:45.020 You guys tell me. 01:15:45.260 --> 01:15:46.699 No one likes having owies. 01:15:47.180 --> 01:15:48.380 No one likes having an owie. 01:15:48.619 --> 01:15:48.780 Yeah. 01:15:48.860 --> 01:15:50.140 I say dicky tummy as well. 01:15:50.220 --> 01:15:51.100 Sometimes I do that. 01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:53.659 It's like, I think we've got a bit of a dicky tummy, you know. 01:15:55.739 --> 01:16:01.659 Bring so just to try and bring people along as well, because they're usually emotive in that situation, you know. 01:16:01.820 --> 01:16:07.980 I think we've all been there with our own horses at some point, trying to hold back the tears while the vet's telling us something. 01:16:08.060 --> 01:16:12.860 I know I have, um, you know, and it's just like, are they gonna be okay? 01:16:13.100 --> 01:16:17.900 Because you just it is, it's a very emotive, you know, we worry about them all of the time. 01:16:18.140 --> 01:16:23.100 Um so I I would love to know where do you guys see this research going next? 01:16:23.260 --> 01:16:28.060 Do you have things on the horizon that you want to take this going further, or are there new ideas? 01:16:28.220 --> 01:16:30.060 Is this just the start of something bigger? 01:16:30.220 --> 01:16:35.100 You don't have to give the whole gameplay, you can talk in general terms if there's a if there's something big happening. 01:16:35.180 --> 01:16:39.820 But I'm just super curious about that just a little bit, and Ben will certainly expand. 01:16:40.060 --> 01:16:54.300 Uh one paper that's been published recently uh was it's the written horse's um pain ethogram, and and we just assume, well not assumed, sorry, it was first designed in application to musculoskeletal pain. 01:16:55.020 --> 01:17:16.539 Where he, you know, with the focus of gastric ulcers, and there is a group that has taken that ethogram and applied it to horses with ethogastric ulcer syndrome of horses being diagnosed, um with with uh either ESGD or I think was it ESGD and EGGD that had horse population with both, well one or the other, or both. 01:17:16.699 --> 01:17:20.460 Um I think that was Emmanuel, was that uh her group? 01:17:20.619 --> 01:17:22.940 Yeah, Van Eric, um, Westergren. 01:17:23.100 --> 01:17:35.579 I kind of I probably butchered her last name, but we actually came to talk to we have an annual conference in Australia for equine veterinarians, and she was one of the guest speakers, and as well as Dr. 01:17:35.659 --> 01:17:36.619 Rachel Murray. 01:17:36.780 --> 01:17:46.699 And it was really interesting to go away, leave Australia, not go to a horse conference in Australia for over 10 years, or come back and see that the the dialogue is so different. 01:17:46.780 --> 01:17:50.699 It was just a huge focus on the holistic approach to poor performance. 01:17:50.940 --> 01:18:05.579 Emmanuel um did a respiratory talk on um and used some case studies, one of which talking about bits was convincing a client for this horse with airway disease, this horse is going to be better and it will

go better for for a myriad of reasons. 01:18:05.820 --> 01:18:07.420 To save some time, I won't go into it. 01:18:07.579 --> 01:18:17.260 But um this horse, they took it around show jumping with a bitless bridle, and it was convincing that client to you know think outside the box was really, really difficult for them. 01:18:17.579 --> 01:18:22.060 Uh, because it's pretty, yeah, I not typical. 01:18:22.220 --> 01:18:28.140 Um, but that horse went like fantastic, really like elite horse going around in a bitless bridle with a show jumping. 01:18:28.300 --> 01:18:37.579 So um, yeah, going back to the Ethogram, I think applying it to other body systems, and I think that's a good segue for for Ben to carry on. 01:18:39.180 --> 01:18:40.220 Yeah, I agree. 01:18:40.380 --> 01:18:44.539 I mean, I think uh for me personally, I'm still a one-trick pony. 01:18:44.619 --> 01:18:48.060 I'm still it's all about gastric ulcers at the center of what I do. 01:18:48.300 --> 01:18:52.380 Um, I think you know, we're looking at new treatments for gastric ulcers and stuff like that. 01:18:52.539 --> 01:18:59.260 But in this particular space, I tend to think of it as sort of ulcers in the center of a four-point compass. 01:18:59.340 --> 01:19:08.940 And those four points of the compass are gonna be the welfare aspects, both as inputs and outputs, drivers and outcomes of disease. 01:19:09.180 --> 01:19:17.500 We're gonna look at the pain that we've talked a lot about, and then the the other two on the either side are eating and sleep. 01:19:17.820 --> 01:19:27.579 And thinking about eating not just as saying, well, you know, if a horse has ulcers, it stops eating, saying horses get ulcers because they stop eating. 01:19:27.739 --> 01:19:28.780 Why do they stop eating? 01:19:28.940 --> 01:19:30.460 Eating's a complex behavior. 01:19:30.619 --> 01:19:33.340 Horses have to feel safe and secure to eat. 01:19:33.659 --> 01:19:37.900 And we know that when they're cohabitated, they eat 40% more. 01:19:38.060 --> 01:19:43.340 We know that when they're housed outdoors, they spend 50% more time grazing or eating. 01:19:43.659 --> 01:19:56.940 So thinking of eating as not just an outcome, poor appetite, just not just as an outcome of gastric disease, but as a driver of gastric disease, and then that loops back to that welfare behavior conversation. 01:19:57.180 --> 01:20:00.780 And then I think the sleeping giant sitting to the other side of that is sleep. 01:20:00.940 --> 01:20:18.220 And what we haven't had until very, very recently are effective tools for measuring sleep in horses, and we're now getting to that level with AI, and I'm likewise involved in a couple of projects looking at AI around sleep. 01:20:18.539 --> 01:20:21.340 Um, and it is an absolute game changer. 01:20:21.420 --> 01:20:45.900 It will just it will open the biggest can of worms about sleep as a reflection on the horse's response to its environment, sleep hygiene, sleep health as a as a reflection on that

horse's response to its environment, as a welfare window to its environment, um, and as an outcome, obviously, of you know, pain causing sleep disruption, gastric ulcers causing sleep disruption, and those things. 01:20:45.980 --> 01:20:48.699 So, again, I see these things as bi-directional. 01:20:48.940 --> 01:21:01.739 Um, I think the other thing that's going to be incredibly powerful in both of those spaces is that when we have those AI tools in place, they are going to democratize that conversation and put that power back in horse owners' hands. 01:21:01.900 --> 01:21:02.140 Yeah. 01:21:02.380 --> 01:21:11.100 Because what we have at the moment is horse owners are very disempowered about really being able to put their fingers on their horse health. 01:21:11.180 --> 01:21:19.260 They're very reliant on what someone is telling them, and that has numerous challenges attached to it, rightly or wrongly. 01:21:19.500 --> 01:21:29.020 I think that this ability to monitor horses, particularly the modern horses that are stabled, um, and to drill in on those aspects is where we go next. 01:21:29.100 --> 01:21:42.060 And I think it's going to be once we get those tools in our hands, it's going to be a very, very exciting, disruptive, uncomfortable uh next few years as we wade through the implications of what we learn through doing that. 01:21:42.460 --> 01:21:48.860 It goes back to what you said before with like the livery yards going like, well, I can't do that, but this is what we can do. 01:21:49.100 --> 01:21:55.180 And as you say, like that disruption gives I say the power back to people to go, like, okay, what can I do? 01:21:55.340 --> 01:21:56.699 Like to improve things. 01:21:56.860 --> 01:22:01.500 And I'm so glad you said about like the behavior of sleeping and eating. 01:22:01.579 --> 01:22:09.579 And I'm so glad it's being brought into the conversation because yes, they are critical behaviours that are so important for like physics, not just like welfare. 01:22:09.900 --> 01:22:16.220 We sort of dismiss them, but they they they impact you know physical health massively. 01:22:16.460 --> 01:22:26.860 And one of the things, if if you allow me, like you just so people can can hear this, is like that we don't appreciate with horses when it comes to eating is how we have built stables. 01:22:27.100 --> 01:22:35.020 It's a solid door, they cannot see through it, and horses need to, as they have their heads down grazing. 01:22:35.100 --> 01:22:50.780 And you, if you go through a barn or you know, an American-style barn, we call them here, but like they have solid doors, and you have horses in those stables with the hay on the ground, or like at which is great because it supports nasal drainage, they are eating, they have their heads down. 01:22:51.020 --> 01:22:57.340 You will watch them all put their heads up to survey and see other horses and then go back down again. 01:22:57.739 --> 01:23:08.220 And you know, part of the research that I did many years ago had um like gates instead of solid doors, and the horses kept their heads down way more. 01:23:08.380 --> 01:23:15.579 They very rarely lifted their heads up because when their heads are down, because of their vision, they can see other horses, you know. 01:23:15.659 --> 01:23:19.500 So they're they're they're not going up, down, up, down, up, down. 01:23:19.659 --> 01:23:27.260 But that's the way we've built modern stables because we haven't appreciated that important part of the horse's natural behavior. 01:23:27.659 --> 01:23:37.340 How much of an impact does that head down, head up, head down, head up impact, you know, stress as well, which we know has an impact on ulcers. 01:23:37.420 --> 01:23:40.940 So not just how they're eating, but the environment that they're eating in. 01:23:41.020 --> 01:23:54.380 Because as you said, Benic, we know from the research that you know, gastric ulcers and also behavioral problems just in general are less prevalent when we have horses like group housed or you know, grazing outside as well. 01:23:54.539 --> 01:24:00.140 But like, you know, what part of that behavioral pattern, you know, are they able to sleep better? 01:24:00.380 --> 01:24:02.539 Are they able to get that social grooming? 01:24:02.619 --> 01:24:14.220 You know, is it like a case that they don't have to constantly look for other horses in their environment because they are a prey animal, they can see them as they're grazing continuously. 01:24:14.380 --> 01:24:34.140 Like we don't know which one of these or a combination of all of them, you know, but by looking at the horse's natural behavior and incorporating that into how we keep them is going to not improve not only improve the horse's welfare and behavior and their performance, but also reduce the underlying medical issues that can happen as a result. 01:24:34.300 --> 01:24:36.220 So sorry, thank you for allowing me to do that. 01:24:36.619 --> 01:24:43.020 Yeah, and I think it's the loop back to Jen said before about motivators and about the humans being at the center of that. 01:24:43.100 --> 01:24:45.980 So we look at motivators of human change. 01:24:46.220 --> 01:24:55.260 Um, one of the things that we haven't really done a great job of establishing is the benefits of all these the three F's friends, forage freedom, on performance. 01:24:55.500 --> 01:25:20.860 That if that's the human's currency, how do we translate that into the valuable currency for the human and say, okay, you want a horse that performs better, let's show, let's show that these interventions actually give you what you want, even if you don't have a high focus on the um welfare of the horse, if you're more ultra um uh self-oriented, well, let's find a way to communicate that. 01:25:20.940 --> 01:25:23.980 Let's find a way to show that doing these things actually improves outcome. 01:25:24.060 --> 01:25:25.980 And sleep and learning is the center of that. 01:25:26.060 --> 01:25:39.739 Like, there's

no question that sleep and learning, and like I said before, I think that putting these tools in people's hands, there's it's horrifying when you watch some of these videos and you realize that some of these horses don't sleep. 01:25:40.060 --> 01:25:40.860 No, they don't, yeah. 01:25:40.940 --> 01:25:42.460 Yeah, I've seen it, you've seen it. 01:25:42.860 --> 01:25:47.180 They they're meant to get their minimum 20 minutes of lying down, sleep, and they don't. 01:25:47.340 --> 01:25:51.659 And you're like, hang on, this thing hasn't slept for a week, it must be psychotic. 01:25:51.739 --> 01:26:09.659 Yeah, and then you wonder why we go back to where we started while we're having behavioral issues, because the poor creature hasn't slept in the last three months of its life, and it is literally by every clinical definition psychotic, and of course it can't do its job, and of course it's hard to deal with, and all of these things. 01:26:09.820 --> 01:26:29.579 So, you know, I think we're just scratching that surface, but I think there will be some really positive outcomes, not just for the horse, but also in terms of motivators for benefits of change in how we set up, and it'd be much harder for the I can't brigade to say we can't do this because it'll be you just have to. 01:26:29.820 --> 01:26:30.539 You just have to. 01:26:30.619 --> 01:26:40.380 Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that with it with going towards the sleep because Barbara and I both did our thesis, not together separately, but both of us did nocturnal studies. 01:26:41.100 --> 01:26:43.020 So we looked at foraging, sleep. 01:26:43.180 --> 01:26:51.340 I did I did a comparison between outdoor and indoor, and and bar Barbara did um slow feeders, but looking at behaviors as well. 01:26:51.420 --> 01:26:59.820 And it's just so nice to hear that there's gonna be more looking into that nocturnal state and what's happening overnight because it's a really missed aspect. 01:26:59.980 --> 01:27:03.420 Like you say, sleep is so important and just really expecting it. 01:27:03.659 --> 01:27:04.300 Both of us do not. 01:27:12.300 --> 01:27:15.340 And it's because they've sustained a different injury as a result of the sleep. 01:27:16.140 --> 01:27:20.460 Rather than a wound on their fat lock, not because they fell over because they were so tired. 01:27:20.619 --> 01:27:32.460 Yeah, and so it's pegging it back to that more central discussion, I think, and and and looking for the different motivators, looking for the different, recognizing that people, different another doctorphilism, different people have different currencies. 01:27:32.619 --> 01:27:36.460 Find them, identify them, and work towards them instead of against them. 01:27:36.619 --> 01:27:37.340 Yeah, yeah. 01:27:38.940 --> 01:27:44.220 If we could show a racehorse runs one percent faster because it sleeps better, every stale in the world would change overnight. 01:27:44.300 --> 01:27:45.739 Well, half the 100%. 01:27:45.980 --> 01:27:50.220 Yeah, you know, it's like what we saw, it's like find the paying point. 01:27:50.460 --> 01:27:51.180 Do you know what I mean? 01:27:51.260 --> 01:27:53.020 That everybody's got a paying point. 01:27:53.180 --> 01:27:56.860 Like I say, but I like your currency example um better. 01:27:56.940 --> 01:28:07.180 But I'd say like to Jen's point, yeah, I'd say like because we we looked at video footage of horses at at night time, like I both of us had horses that didn't sleep. 01:28:07.420 --> 01:28:37.500 One of one of the ones, and and it is heartbreaking, it is heartbreaking, like because you're like, there is a nothing I can really do, you know, and I am doing research here, so I have to record it, you know, but you're still watching it, and you know that the impact that it's having on that individual for one of the horses, you talk about the motivators as well, like you know, we talk about like can they sleep either, you know, social, you know, as I about social housing, why aren't they sleeping and all the rest of it? 01:28:37.659 --> 01:28:46.140 One of the horses in my study, across the other side of the barn, a new horse was brought in, and that that was a completely new horse. 01:28:46.300 --> 01:28:50.060 Um, and my study horses could see it. 01:28:50.539 --> 01:28:53.020 You know, three of the horses didn't weren't bothered. 01:28:53.500 --> 01:28:55.420 A couple of them were like, Oh, what's that? 01:28:55.659 --> 01:29:00.220 One horse didn't sleep for two days because they were watching the new horse. 01:29:00.460 --> 01:29:05.100 Like, which was I'd never uh that I hadn't considered at all, you know. 01:29:05.579 --> 01:29:06.380 I bet you it was cranky. 01:29:06.619 --> 01:29:08.300 I bet you it was cranky at the end of the day, actually. 01:29:09.100 --> 01:29:11.020 But like it was it was like the behavior. 01:29:11.260 --> 01:29:13.020 This horse was so aroused. 01:29:13.100 --> 01:29:16.140 Oh, yeah, like I'm god knows what they were like to ride and stuff. 01:29:16.300 --> 01:29:24.619 I didn't measure that, like, you know, as part of the study, but they were so overly aroused and focused on the other horse, this new horse that arrived, you know. 01:29:24.699 --> 01:29:43.340 And I wish I had cameras on the other horse to see if there was just this constant hyper-vigilance between these horses, like so, like we didn't, you know, and like I was thinking of at the time, it's like you know, the owner of the yard and these horses, because I say I I took the camera like down like a week later, so you know, I wasn't able to communicate it either. 01:29:43.500 --> 01:29:46.300 But had they known what would they have ridden that horse? 01:29:46.460 --> 01:29:53.020 Did they understand the impacts of putting a new horse in a different stable and the impact on sleep? 01:29:53.100 --> 01:30:09.260 And and the horse didn't eat either during that time, just stood there in total hypervigilance, you know, didn't sleep, didn't eat,

you know, skewed my data, but you know, um you know, but I'm just like just the impact of because they're social creatures, like and and taking that on board as well. 01:30:09.340 --> 01:30:24.300 It's just like all of the impacts of that, you know, are just are just absolutely fascinating, and we don't consider it, you know, and we can't absolutely like we can't see it, you know, and highlighting it to people like you know, it is really really important. 01:30:24.380 --> 01:30:30.140 So, yeah, I say that AI space is you know is gonna be really fascinating. 01:30:30.699 --> 01:30:33.980 Um I all my questions, Jen. 01:30:34.060 --> 01:30:35.579 Do you have any more questions? 01:30:36.300 --> 01:30:42.220 My last question is always just as the authors, what is the take-home message that you hope horse owners? 01:30:42.460 --> 01:30:51.820 So not the researchers, not the other academics who will read this and criticize, not criticize, but you know, take what they want and what they're looking for because they do their um what's the professional word I'm looking for? 01:30:52.220 --> 01:30:54.699 Critique, you know, critical and all that. 01:30:55.020 --> 01:30:59.180 What is it that you want the horse owners on the ground to take away from this paper? 01:30:59.500 --> 01:31:01.020 Uh do you want to go first, Ben? 01:31:01.500 --> 01:31:01.980 Or shall I? 01:31:02.380 --> 01:31:05.820 Horse horses are great communicators, we need to be better listeners. 01:31:06.140 --> 01:31:06.780 Yeah, I love it. 01:31:07.020 --> 01:31:07.500 I love that. 01:31:07.659 --> 01:31:07.980 Yeah. 01:31:08.699 --> 01:31:22.140 And yes, other behavioural problems can be equine gastric ulcer syndrome, squamous disease, or glandular disease, they're two very different diseases with different reasons as to why they develop. 01:31:22.300 --> 01:31:27.180 So it is important to differentiate between the two diseases through gastroscopy. 01:31:28.060 --> 01:31:37.100 But we need to avoid being hyperfocused just on e-gas and that behavioral issues can also be due to other problems. 01:31:37.180 --> 01:31:41.100 And and think of is are the behavioral issues because of pain? 01:31:41.260 --> 01:31:48.220 And if so, if it's pain, is it gastrointestinal, is it musculoskeletal, is it hormonal, etc. 01:31:49.180 --> 01:31:52.300 Uh, and then lastly, maybe it's not pain. 01:31:52.539 --> 01:31:59.100 Maybe it's the horse is uh the its training and its other experiences and its own personality. 01:32:00.060 --> 01:32:00.539 Awesome. 01:32:00.699 --> 01:32:01.340 I love that. 01:32:02.060 --> 01:32:03.980 Yeah, because it's that all-encompassing. 01:32:04.060 --> 01:32:11.659 It's just like it's trying to make sure, like, say, we're listening to the horse then and not getting hyper-fixated on we're looking for this one thing, have we found it or not? 01:32:11.900 --> 01:32:17.579 And then reminding ourselves, Amy, that there's a whole life experience that we're only looking at one percentage of their day. 01:32:17.820 --> 01:32:20.539 There's so many things that could be contributing to that behavior. 01:32:22.140 --> 01:32:24.460 Yeah, I'm looking forward to the rest of your research, guys. 01:32:24.539 --> 01:32:29.020 Like I said, it was absolutely wonderful, um, you know, paper. 01:32:29.100 --> 01:32:33.180 Like, so I I can't wait to see I can't wait to see the rest of the work. 01:32:33.260 --> 01:32:34.460 Like it's a great space. 01:32:34.619 --> 01:32:42.860 Um, you know, uh, as I normally I say if if anybody wants to to to look for your research, are you both on on ResearchGate? 01:32:42.940 --> 01:32:50.300 You know, if if people want to find some papers or anything else that the work that you're doing, can people follow you there? 01:32:50.699 --> 01:32:53.820 Uh Facebook's probably the best place to follow me or LinkedIn. 01:32:53.980 --> 01:32:58.060 Um, but I have my work page Facebook, which is Benjamin Sykes. 01:32:58.539 --> 01:33:08.619 Um, and um yeah, I sort of uh post new research and stuff as it comes along, engage in these types of conversations, um, have my bit to say. 01:33:08.780 --> 01:33:12.140 So um, yeah, that's probably the easiest place to find me. 01:33:12.380 --> 01:33:12.940 Fantastic. 01:33:13.100 --> 01:33:15.180 I'll I'll I'll pop it into the description below. 01:33:15.260 --> 01:33:18.860 Um uh Amy, is there anywhere that people can follow you? 01:33:19.420 --> 01:33:25.260 I think Ben already referred to how I'm not particularly uh I know I'm the same. 01:33:27.659 --> 01:33:28.060 Yeah. 01:33:28.220 --> 01:33:32.619 Um look, the just the Charleston University like website. 01:33:32.780 --> 01:33:37.579 There's um as a senior lecturer in equimedicine, I've got a little page there. 01:33:37.659 --> 01:33:53.100 I don't, yeah, there's probably not a whole lot there, but um, and just to plug uh some additional uh sort of review article that we put out was another paper that was a lot meatier to the editorial we've been discussing. 01:33:53.260 --> 01:34:03.980 Um, and it's looking at horses, uh a behavioral modification approach to horses with um refractory equine gastrical syndrome as it had been. 01:34:04.220 --> 01:34:05.340 I've already forgotten the title. 01:34:05.500 --> 01:34:05.739 Sorry. 01:34:06.060 --> 01:34:12.220 Incorporating a behavioral medicine approach into the management of equine gastric ulcer disease or something along those lines. 01:34:12.380 --> 01:34:14.140 So it was a follow-up paper to this. 01:34:14.300 --> 01:34:20.460 It was the next piece beyond we've got the diagnosis, we've got the bit, what do we do when it doesn't work out? 01:34:20.619 --> 01:34:22.539 What do we do when there's learned behavior? 01:34:22.780 --> 01:34:23.900 And we wrote that. 01:34:24.060 --> 01:34:26.860 Well, sorry, a behavioralist wrote that with us. 01:34:28.220 --> 01:34:32.220 Oh behavioralists are writing, and we we added context. 01:34:32.300 --> 01:34:34.699 So Mary

Clint from Canada. 01:34:34.940 --> 01:34:38.220 Yes, yeah, thank goodness for Mary, she was great. 01:34:38.460 --> 01:34:40.220 So yeah, I think is this. 01:34:40.380 --> 01:34:42.860 I think I I I I I I have it here in my notes. 01:34:43.020 --> 01:34:48.060 It's like incorporating behavioral medicine approach to a multimodal management of chronic equity. 01:34:48.380 --> 01:34:48.860 Chronic. 01:34:49.020 --> 01:34:51.340 Yep, yes, yes, uh refractory. 01:34:51.820 --> 01:34:58.380 That touches on a lot of the stuff we've talked today, and it gets into some, you know, when we talk about tools or we talk about specific actions. 01:34:58.699 --> 01:35:05.180 Mary got into some really detailed, specific desensitization programs and stuff like that for things like girthiness. 01:35:05.260 --> 01:35:15.739 She really she talks through a step-by-step, very detailed, step-by-step approach that very um very applicable to very time consuming, as you know, but very applicable to horse owners. 01:35:15.900 --> 01:35:19.100 They can they can literally follow the follow the recipe and you know. 01:35:19.579 --> 01:35:24.940 I'm about to say, like, may I think we've got to go uh harass Mary and see if she wants to come and talk to you. 01:35:25.260 --> 01:35:27.100 I know I was gonna say I know where we're going next, then. 01:35:27.420 --> 01:35:28.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:35:28.940 --> 01:35:29.180 Yeah. 01:35:29.579 --> 01:35:40.940 Well, I've actually started Ben, I've been downloading it's in the the step-by-step protocols in the appendices of the article, it's and uh publishing through Animals. 01:35:41.020 --> 01:35:45.820 It's uh anyone listening can download um these for free. 01:35:46.300 --> 01:35:50.539 Uh and in the appendices, yeah, that stepwise approach from Mary. 01:35:50.619 --> 01:35:57.260 I've started because I know this is, and I've said I'm not a behaviorist, like this is not my area, I know my limitations. 01:35:57.420 --> 01:36:08.780 So I've actually for the certain clients who are very detail-oriented and really at their wits' end, I've been printing that off and and handing it to them and saying, take this. 01:36:09.020 --> 01:36:12.780 You you don't have to use this, but this might help you take a look at it. 01:36:12.860 --> 01:36:16.220 Yeah, yeah, that's that's absolutely wonderful. 01:36:16.380 --> 01:36:18.380 Like, you know, what an amazing resource. 01:36:18.539 --> 01:36:44.060 And I, as I say, I like I'll I'll pop it into the the show notes as well for for people to have a look because you know, I I hadn't even, you know, I hadn't heard of it or seen it, which again it's like this is what we do, and like it's so up our street, and it's just like how even myself and Jen hadn't come across this bit of research, and it's so sad because like we do CPD, we read papers all the time. 01:36:44.460 --> 01:36:49.820 This should be, and yet these it only came out late last year, to be fair. 01:36:50.060 --> 01:36:59.180 Yeah, yeah, I know, but I feel like that's you know, like because we have people talking to each other, yeah, storytelling. 01:37:00.220 --> 01:37:05.579 And the other thing to keep an eye out for is we're we're in the process of updating the in 2015. 01:37:05.659 --> 01:37:17.260 We wrote an international consensus statement, which is sort of the reference document for the vet use around gastric disease, and we're in the process with an expert advisory group of updating that and hope to have it out later this year. 01:37:17.500 --> 01:37:32.140 Um which is uh, you know, and and it is a shift, it's still that very it's that veterinary technical, but it's a shift much more into this conversation that we've been having today to set a broader base to the discussion. 01:37:32.539 --> 01:37:34.539 That should be open access to Ben. 01:37:35.020 --> 01:37:35.260 Yes. 01:37:35.820 --> 01:37:36.380 Yeah, yeah. 01:37:36.460 --> 01:37:38.860 The intent is that that will be downloadable for everyone. 01:37:39.180 --> 01:37:40.860 Yeah, and I that's it. 01:37:40.940 --> 01:37:56.380 Even if you're not a vet, you can still read this stuff, and especially with Eat Gus being so closely uh relevant to husbandry and welfare, um, to prevent the disease, it all comes down on uh how people are managing their horses. 01:37:56.619 --> 01:37:58.860 So that's amazing. 01:37:58.940 --> 01:38:01.820 I feel it's super exciting as well. 01:38:01.900 --> 01:38:06.060 Like it's like it's you know, I'm sure the same for for you guys as well. 01:38:06.140 --> 01:38:17.340 It's just like we've been doing these this job and this work for a long time, but I really do feel like in the last kind of really the last sort of six years, I feel like the ball is rolling. 01:38:17.420 --> 01:38:18.940 Now we're really like, do you know what I mean? 01:38:19.100 --> 01:38:25.100 Like we've been pushing the ball up the hill the whole time, and now I feel like we're do you know what I mean? 01:38:25.180 --> 01:38:29.659 Things that things are picking up speed, yeah, like in all kind of quadrants. 01:38:29.820 --> 01:38:30.619 Um you know. 01:38:31.020 --> 01:38:41.500 I think we have social media to thank a little bit for that because there is a the social license aspect and what goes on social media and what the public think is like not acceptable, you know. 01:38:41.820 --> 01:38:49.260 So that's um been helpful, you know, in it's trying to change this space. 01:38:49.659 --> 01:38:51.500 Yeah, no, absolutely. 01:38:51.659 --> 01:38:56.300 Um I say, is there anything else you guys, you know, did we cover everything? 01:38:56.460 --> 01:39:00.940 Is there anything else that we kind of missed that you really wish we kind of covered? 01:39:01.180 --> 01:39:03.820 Or are we I think that's a pretty solid hour. 01:39:03.980 --> 01:39:15.579 Yeah, that's a pretty yeah, yeah, and for the for full disclosure, the star this Ben was like 45 minutes an hour, two hours later, we're still here. 01:39:16.300 --> 01:39:18.940 You know, um I know better than that. 01:39:20.460 --> 01:39:21.980 Yeah, we should have we should have counted. 01:39:22.300 --> 01:39:26.220 Two hours off, which an hour and a half is me talking, so I can't really blame anyone else. 01:39:26.460 --> 01:39:28.140 No, I could listen to you guys forever. 01:39:28.380 --> 01:39:31.340 I mean, you know, it's it's been absolutely amazing. 01:39:31.739 --> 01:39:32.300 Thank you. 01:39:32.380 --> 01:39:41.579 Because it's it's I know behavior's not a strength of mine as a doctor in in vet, so I've really appreciated learning from you guys today, too. 01:39:41.900 --> 01:39:42.699 Oh, thank you. 01:39:42.860 --> 01:39:45.260 Oh yeah, truly really appreciate it. 01:39:45.500 --> 01:39:49.900 I think it's it's fantastic to break out of those silos, you know, like you said about the witchage. 01:39:50.300 --> 01:40:00.380 We all live in these little silos, and I I was recently invited to to to keynote at the Aquine Science Symposium, which is not the normal space where I would operate as a veterinarian. 01:40:00.619 --> 01:40:08.860 I, you know, that took that as a great sort of privilege that I get to step out of my silo into someone else's silo to have a conversation around this type of stuff. 01:40:09.100 --> 01:40:13.500 So these conversations are always welcome and and and always enjoyable. 01:40:13.900 --> 01:40:14.619 Yeah, 100%. 01:40:16.300 --> 01:40:17.980 It's it's been absolutely wonderful. 01:40:18.140 --> 01:40:21.980 Like, thank you so much, guys, and I let you enjoy the rest of your your evening. 01:40:22.220 --> 01:40:27.659 So I'd say, like, or if you've further research, you know, don't be strange, you know, further research down the line. 01:40:27.820 --> 01:40:30.619 Like, you know, don't be strangers, we'd love to have you back on again. 01:40:30.860 --> 01:40:37.020 You know, if you're you're happy to have this, because you know it's just wonderful to to have these conversations. 01:40:37.260 --> 01:40:40.539 Um, but uh, but yeah, um perfect. 01:40:40.699 --> 01:40:44.220 We'll say goodbye and salon. 01:40:44.380 --> 01:40:46.300 Yeah, yeah, nice to meet you again. 01:40:46.539 --> 01:40:47.340 Yeah, fantastic. 01:40:47.659 --> 01:40:48.140 Thanks, guys. 01:40:48.460 --> 01:40:48.699 Bye. 01:40:49.020 --> 01:40:50.380 Thank you forever. 01:40:50.619 --> 01:40:51.020 Bye.