Jakson Re-formed - Music: Perspective through 'Eternity' täydellinen litterointi

to bring faith and trust into that space. 
 So yeah, I kind of joined hand in hand in this process for this particular work. 
 [00:02:59] Alison Tenorio: Thanks, Ella. I'm really excited about getting into the intricacies of the piece as we get further along in this podcast. So thank you so much. Ella's work has been beautifully performed and recorded by Muses Trio, Louise King, Therese Milanovic, and Christa Powell, established Muses Trio in 2013. 
 Christa, Louise and Therese source, commission, perform and champion music by women from across the globe. Please find the biographies for Louise, Christa and Therese in the description. Welcome, Louise, Therese and Christa, thanks so much for joining us today. Can we start with how Muses Trio came to be involved in the recording of Ella's work? 
 [00:03:42] Therese Milanovic: I'll jump in with this one. So it was actually through another composer and mutual friend Nat Bartsch. So we had performed some of Nat's music. We commissioned a trio and we done a double bill together and had lots of cups of tea on my veranda, which is an important part of Muses is connecting and building relationships. 
 Nat knew that Ella had this work commissioned, but it hadn't had an Australian premiere yet, and so she connected us basically, and so then Ella and I chatted, and Ella was intent for it to be recorded from the outset, which is a really important feature of our work as well. I think it's, it's really important for legacy that we don't just perform these beautiful works and a one-off or series of concerts that they're actually there, um, and that they really can be enjoyed for a very long time. And, and at that stage, it was a perfect fit for our 10th anniversary concert at the Red Box in South Bank, which was a floor to ceiling, glass wall with the Brisbane River behind and the city lights twinkling. 
 So beautiful just, it was such a perfect fit for this work. So that was the Australian premiere. 
 [00:04:48] Alison Tenorio: Such a collaborative approach. Yes. Very exciting. Thank you. A question for both Ella and Muses Trio, the work, The Brightest Star in the Night is obviously scored for a trio, and in this case we've got violin, cello, and piano. 
 Why was this performing media chosen and what sound qualities of the instruments are successful in producing the timbre that was desired? 
 [00:05:14] Ella Macens: Well I can, uh, as the composer, I can probably jump in to start this answer. So, the work was actually originally composed by the Pēteris Vasks Fund in Latvia. If listeners aren't familiar with the work of Latvian Composer  Pēteris Vasks, you might wanna check it out. 
 It's absolutely beautiful. And so the commission actually was originally for this particular ensemble makeup, and it's an interesting thing for the composer to consider whether they are going to choose instruments that will be suitable and you know, evocative of the concept that the composer wishes to bring to life, or

sometimes it's vice versa we are asked to write for a certain ensemble, and then the idea of what they will do comes next. As I mentioned earlier, for me it was kind of mixing in both worlds, and so it was such an exciting thing to have the beautiful resonant qualities of the strings and also the piano in this particular composition. For me, it lended itself perfectly to the mood and the feeling that I wanted to create and the concepts I wanted to discover and uncover in writing this composition. 
 [00:06:10] Louise King: Absolutely. And I think in terms of a string world, there's so much wonderful timbre we can get with the expressive nature of the lines. 
 There's a delightful singing quality to everything in the violin and cello lines, very much like a human voice. And there's this wonderful kind of dialogue that happens between us throughout the whole movement. And then there's the padding of the piano, which kind of creates that, sparkle and 'cause of the high pitched nature of the ostinato figures, it tends to kind of have this sense of space. So I see the string lines very much operating as kind of a rhetoric, you know, a comment on the universe, and I think there's a slight human quality. When I was recording it, I was almost imagining Ella having a kind of conversation with her grandfather. Actually, it helped me on the cello line to kind of give it a bit of a, thoughtful, uh, sentiment. 
 [00:07:01] Christa Powell: I feel like I remember at the end of the recording, Ella, we definitely felt your grandfather there. The other thing that I feel also is, especially in the violin line, is the way Ella uses the high on the E string. It's just very, very beautiful. And then also harmonics, you know, the sort of sparkly twinkling of the piano and then the high harmonics in the violins, just beautiful the way she has used all of the instruments together, and also the medium of the trio. So not just the individual instruments, but just the whole trio as one. 
 [00:07:33] Louise King: Mm. Yeah, there's a, there's a delightful complexity and nuance to every note, which I think, um, is really stunning and it's a total delight to play. 
 It feels very ergonomic, very easy in terms of on the instrument, but yet the complexity of the writing is challenging, particularly in the metre. Yet we still have to try and push through that feeling of tempi, but to create this sense illusion of space. And I think she's managed to capture that beautifully. 
 [00:08:04] Christa Powell: It's definitely one of those works where every note is a pearl and, and learning it and recording it is treating it like that as well, because every note has a really important place. 
 [00:08:16] Therese Milanovic: For me, also, the, the piano trio just brings such an intimacy, you know, to, to the theme. You know, when you're initially talking about the other works in this unit, which are more orchestral works, and you wanted to contrast that, I think the, the piano trio

just really zeroes into that sort of individual sparkles and the piano I think was, is able to give the work a lot of resonance with the use of the pedal and using o overtones, a lot of fifths and octaves, which are going to ring up that harmonic series so that the sound is really flying around instead of kind of being thick and solid and earth-based. It definitely feels like that the writing is more, um, of the atmosphere, I guess more of harm harmonics and vibrations rather than something earthbound and solid. 
 [00:08:58] Alison Tenorio: I really love how each of the performers have been able to get that vision of what Ella is trying to portray in her story and how beautifully you've been able to express that you each felt that connection to Ella's grandfather, um, in the music that she has written. I think that's really very special, that openness and that space that has given you as performers in creating that imagery. So thank you for sharing that. 
 Ella, from your perspective as a composer and Therese, Christa and Louise, from a performer's perspective, what is the benefit of a collaborative approach when performing or recording your work? 
 [00:09:43] Christa Powell: I think that is the beauty of collaborating with a live, real, live composer, is that we felt Ella's grandfather's presence we felt the importance of her relationship with him in this piece and we understood so much about the complexities of this piece because of that ongoing dialogue. Um, we, it's, it's really a privilege to be able to have so much time talking with the composer about why they're writing something. You know, and I know it wasn't, originally written for us, but we do feel very attached to this piece like it was written for us. 
 [00:10:18] Louise King: I suppose we have to also clarify that we had the joy and privilege of having Ella in the recording studio as we were recording, which is very rare and it was a real privilege to have her there, which means that she can instantly kind of give feedback, uh, review things, question things, and kind of really get what she's wanting to, to have in that kind of recording legacy um, and that's such a joy to have a composer in the space. So it's definitely collaborative. Uh mm-hmm. We, we love having that feedback loop there and it doesn't always happen. 
 [00:10:48] Therese Milanovic: No, I'll add it was quite an emotional experience. I think for all of us recording this piece. I think we were all really quite moved by the emotion of the music and on the note of collaborating and getting feedback from composers, I mean, our notational system, it's limited. 
 It can't tell you everything on the page and, and I, I find it really interesting you know, when I'm teaching works by older composers who aren't able to answer an email that we, we are left wondering, you know, well, did they really mean that two notes low to continue for the whole movement? Did they get bored writing it? Should they, you know, do they

intend to stop it? We'll never know. But I think in all of our work with composers, I not only the, the score, but the interpretation has quite dramatically changed from working with composers. Sometimes we'll start off, not with you, Ella, but mm-hmm. We might start off at the tempo that's written on the score and the composer say, oh no, that's totally wrong. You're like, well, that's what it says. Oh no, but that's wrong. I changed it. Right. So music, it's, it's alive, you know, and we were able to bring so much more to the music that can't be notated on the score through having your input and, um, and I, I think vice versa, a couple of little things changed on the score because of how we were playing as well. 
 Hmm. So, yeah, I agree with Krista. It, it feels like, to me, it feels like it was written for us. So I'm very happy to claim it as our piece. 
 [00:12:09] Ella Macens: Well, what's really interesting in that part of the process is, although the premiere happened in Latvia, being that it was commissioned by a Latvian organisation, was in a little castle somewhere in the middle of the countryside, but I wasn't there and I didn't even have an opportunity to meet with those performers on Zoom or we exchanged a couple of emails, but you know, they were very busy preparing a whole program. There were a lot of other pieces there as well that required their time and attention. And so in a way, um, when I visited Muses Trio in Brisbane, yeah, we were able to workshop it. I think it was in Theresa's living room actually. I got off the airport, hopped in an Uber and went straight to a beautiful home and um, that was the first time we all actually met in person after many, many, many years. I think it just struck me in that moment, you know, when is a piece finished? I always laugh when people ask me like, how long did you spend writing this piece? And there's so many intricate answers to that, and there's so many stages and so things continued to, you know, no pun intended, but the piece is "Eternity". It's about ever unfolding and the continuous nature of these, um, conversations even that really comes into this as well. So definitely there have been, um, so many nuances that we've workshoped together and to be in the room with such exceptional and friendly and forthcoming, you know, creatively forthcoming musicians, there's so many things that we were able to workshop to make sure that I was able to tell the story exactly as I had intended to. So yeah, the scores aren't exactly the same from the premiere to the two performances earlier in that year and then to the recording, but, um, what's really beautiful is having had that time, not only to work on the music, but get to know each other and feel the energy of one another. I think that's also what contributed to the feeling that we've described so far in that recording process and maybe it's an interesting thing to consider, but normally we record or we perform and we have a maybe a meal

together or say thanks a million times, and then that's kind of the end of the process and never before have I actually sat in a room like this, even virtually with the performers sometime after, to reflect on the process as a whole. And to, to hear each of your recounts of how you felt in that space. I had goosebumps all over me, as you described it. 'cause actually that's a really, that's, I don't take that lightly that's actually a really profound thing that we've all just been discussing that, you know, maybe the intention and feeling I had behind it actually translated. Into the bones and bodies and cells of each human creating it and I think that's something that can always be articulated. It's just something that's felt in the music and in that experience, very profound. 
 [00:14:31] Alison Tenorio: That's lovely. The, the ability for music to be interpreted different ways because it's not just what's on the, the paper in front of you to be interpreted by different musicians that pick up the piece of music is a really special thing for you I'm sure Ella as a composer. Um, but I, I really love the connection that Muses Trio has had with you and has been able to develop what you have had written down on the score. I think that's very special for you as a, a composer. 
 [00:15:06] Ella Macens: Definitely. And it's just one of the, you know, we might talk about, you know, tips for students or tips for listeners, but it's one of the biggest things you know, if you are working on an idea, find somebody who can play it that's not a computer or AI. I think that's just, it sounds so obvious, but so many students create in isolation and definitely like I also create an isolation, but you know, before too long I really wanna get together with a musician or a performer, at least share it with them. Because things have new life when they're, you know, when you can really feel the resonance in real time and not to mention the technical capabilities, you know, we might underwrite for performers capabilities or we might also ask them to do something that's, you know, just not possible. And um, those kinds of things can be ironed out and looked at alternatives very quickly and um, but I think a lot of composers, you know, especially when I was younger, I did this too, I would wait until it was perfect and I'm using inverted commas as I say that. And there was a fear in showing the idea, or you know, it's not quite ready yet but let the performers into that process and allow them to help you, let it be ready, because it's gonna be different every time regardless. So yeah, that's just been such an amazing experience. Yeah, sets my heart on fire. I think every time I'm in the room with musicians, that's the moment after all of the, you know, there's joy in writing, but it's also quite a big stressful task at times, and I always have that moment of, ah, this is why I do it. And, um, that really comes to life in that collaborative process. Definitely. 
 [00:16:57] Alison Tenorio: Alright, so let's start looking at the score. So in "Eternity", you have Ella selected 11/8 as the time signature. A bit of an unusual time signature, but it doesn't remain in 11/8 throughout. Can you take us through some of your decision making um, process and why this multi metric approach best fits the message that you are hoping to convey to your audience? 
 [00:17:24] Ella Macens: Great question. Yeah. So when I was a student, I would've looked at this score and it would've like freaked me out 'cause I would've seen the time signature and thought too hard. Don't understand it next, but actually for me, like I'm a really aurally driven composer and the, the theory of it, you know, is useful it helps me write it down, but I don't really conceive ideas from a theoretical perspective it's all like what I'm, hearing, and that doesn't mean necessarily in my head 'cause I also don't really compose so much in my head. It's a very tactile thing. So sitting at the piano playing and vocalising is usually step one for me and I voice note, record everything on my iPhone so that I have a record of it. And part of the hardest, the hardest part of my process is often then going to Sibelius or Musescore or whatever, you know, whatever's relevant for the composer. The trickiest thing is actually to then go transcribe, everything that I did and capture that free quality and improvisation, because that's a really big part, especially this particular movement of this work. 
 So it's not that I chose 11/8 and went right, this piece is an 11/8 and it's gonna change here and here and here and here. It was more that, you know, on that day when I was sitting at the piano and this initial ostinato and idea came to life under my fingertips. That's just what it was. And so then I had to work out what that is in notation and, yeah, that's how we kind of landed at 11/8 it was purely, um, yeah, very intuitive. And again, I think as a younger composer I would've gone, oh gosh, like, but I don't know how to treat that and I don't know what to do with it next after I've got those opening two bars of, you know, Theresa's intro. So, you know, I might have changed it. I might have again in inverted com- um, commas, like simplified it to make it something that I understood more as a younger composer. But now I just trust my instinct. And that's all you can do at the end of the day. So work it out, feel it, sing it. Um. The little kind of melodic line that Therese even brings out in the right hand it's still the same ostinato and same time a signature, but there's a few different points of emphasis and a few pictures being added there that start to create like an a new melody that's just kind of woven itself out of that tapestry of the ostinato and, all of that for me was pretty organic. Using the voice, again, a lot to start to find what's the next layer and what's the next layer and as Louise mentioned, you know, there is this really strong dialogue

in this piece. Yeah. The next stage is probably improvising at the piano and then trying to transcribe it, but I might go to Garage Band on the way and you know, put that audio file into Garage Band and then add a couple of voice recording layers and sing the cello line and sing the violin line at least for a bit to get things going. 
 So yeah, the 11/8's not so scary to me anymore. 'cause actually it came from the inside out, not the outside in. And if you trust that process, then you can't really go wrong. 
 [00:20:00] Alison Tenorio: I love that. So you didn't go straight to the computer, it was all about experimenting with your voice, on the piano so it developed through your playing, rather than going straight onto the computer saying, I'm going to write a composition in 11/8. 
 [00:20:16] Ella Macens: I think every composer's back just like hunched over in fear a little bit, as you said that Yeah, definitely was a very, uh, hands-on approach. And also like singer- songwriter is a big part of my life as a musician, so although it's for a classically, you know, kind of based ensemble and it is classical music, there's certainly a lot of pop elements in this as well. 
 And so really I could, you know, I could also play this as block chords as a pop song and pop some lyrics and sing it for you, maybe we can do that in another unit. Yeah. And then for me also, I mean, the 11/8 is one is the way that we represent the idea, right? But the idea itself is what's most important. 
 And so going back to the title and the concept for this movement titled "Eternity", I mean, 11/8 really stops anyone from tapping their foot, to it on a regular basis, or you can dance, but it would be quite interpretive and quite fluid. So, you know, you don't get the sense of like a rock beat in here and you don't get the sense that the mosh pit's gonna be jumping up and down, I wanted it to be free, fluid, open, expansive. It's almost like one stream of water, right that just like never stops. And so, as you mentioned, like there's a few moments in the piece, um, where the time signature does change. Like for example, bar 10 we have the first 12/8 time signature, which in that moment might feel like sweet relief because oh, okay, like that one I can conceive a bit easier, you know? 
 Um, and so that was there for me, it's like a, a way to create a moment of like enhanced stability. But before then it let it be at figure B, we, we go back into the 11/8. So yeah, I change time signatures a lot in my music and largely it's to really mimic like space and resonance, but also human and breath, like the humanness and breath in music. 
 So you'll often find in my works, I'm sure it happens here, we can find a few examples to point listeners to but, the end of a phrase might often have like an extra beat or an extra couple of quavers and we know now through our knowledge of like breath and meditation that if we have a longer exhale, than an inhale we are automatically sending signs to our body that we are safe and it's safe to activate, you know, our parasympathetic our rest and digest and, and feel good state. 
 And so that's a really interesting way that I think the music kind of soothes itself. Often at the end of the musical phrase, you'll have that extra moment there, it's like, you know, the building and then the release comes when the next phrase starts. So that actually, you know, could explain why there's a 12 eight in bar 10 just before the next section begins. 
 It's a moment to catch the breath before the idea recommences. 
 [00:22:40] Alison Tenorio: Thanks Ella for sharing that about your time signature and for not making it quite so scary. Um, 'cause I know 11/8 can be, quite a daunting thing when students start looking at scores and start playing it. So thank you for demystifying that a little bit. 
 [00:22:57] Ella Macens: Sure. 
 [00:22:58] Therese Milanovic: If I could jump in actually about that 11/8 and 
 [00:23:00] Alison Tenorio: Sure. 
 [00:23:00] Therese Milanovic: What, what it means to me. So it really reminds me that there are no straight lines in nature. And when I was preparing it, it, it made me remember when I was lucky enough to travel to Barcelona and see like all the Gaudi architecture, for example, that you know, that the floors are not straight, you know, they gently undulate and the corners of the buildings just sort of weave and wave around, and, uh, there's, there was nothing at, at a 90 degree angle. And because he was trying to represent nature in architecture, and I think that's what you've done Ella, with the 11/8, it really does have a feeling of timelessness because we, we don't feel like we're locked into a square three or two or or four on a measure. 
 Yeah. So that, that was the imagery for me. 
 [00:23:41] Christa Powell: Mm-hmm. 
 [00:23:42] Alison Tenorio: That's a really lovely way to look at it. Therese. Um, we might move on to the piano part now, Therese, if you don't mind. So your part begins with eight bars of solo piano. And for you, there's more complexities in the opening than just counting the 11 quaver beats in the bar. 
 Can you explain how you approached learning this movement? 
 [00:24:04] Therese Milanovic: Sure. So the way I approach learning any piece and playing in general is informed by my many decades of studying and teaching the Taubman approach to piano technique, um, that helped me overcome nearly a decade of playing related injury and, you know, regained the chance of having a career in music. 
 So it's really for me that the process is about going back and forth from the micro to, to the macro of really working out the physical choreography, whether it be I have to move inside from my thumb on a black key. If, the music sounds very simple, but there are lots of jumps underneath it, it sounds very legato because the pedal is on, so it's being clear on what can I connect, what can I let go so that it becomes very

automatic and it sounds very dry and technical, but the relationship to, to the interpretation is, is such that, that they really do feed each other. And so once the the physical choreography is established, your hands really start to suggest sound and timbre to you. And then also when you put your ears on that and then you might notice, oh, there was an accent I didn't want, or something sounded a little bit unprepared or sudden then you go back saying, oh yeah, I forgot to do this, or I wasn't quite sure of where I had to to send my arm to. So it really does go hand in hand, excuse the pun. 
 But then when working on the sound world, um, it really had to glow, for me and that's what I was looking for, as I was saying before, I really had to play on the harmonics and the, particularly the intervals at the fifth, lots of ringing effects, like when you have a low bass note, you can really use that and, you know, techniques such as using staccato with the pedal on, um, gives it that kind of ringing quality to the sound, again, it's more about sort of harmonics flying around rather than something being sort of solid and, and earthbound is really looking for sort of these sort of flying, um, glowing, sort of like an illuminating kind of sound, which would project around the room. So yeah, it's, it's, it's beautifully written for the piano. 
 [00:26:03] Alison Tenorio: And can you tell us a little bit more about the harmonics resonance that. You just mentioned? 
 [00:26:09] Therese Milanovic: Yeah, so the harmonic series, so the, if you have like the fundamental note and then you have the octave and then it goes up to the fifth, so you, you can play it in such a way that'll actually activate all of those notes through the harmonic series. You can, you can really play with that and have fun with that, with, with the piano. So using the pedal and using a staccato touch with the pedal on. And so it's, you know, it's about choosing your, which notes to hide, which notes to bring out that definitely the fifths have a particular resonance and I think Ella really uses that to great advantage in the writing for this piece. 
 [00:26:41] Alison Tenorio: Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, Louise, we might. Um, look at the cello part, and I can see in the cello part that the, um, clefs change throughout the piece. What clefs are used and how does that help you read your line? 
 [00:26:57] Louise King: Sure. So basically we have the bass clef, which obviously is the most obvious general clef that cellists would use. Then we also have the tenor clef, which is used extensively in this movement as well as the treble clefs. We actually have three clefs as cellists to read, and it's been used throughout, uh, this movement of the work. And in many ways that's to also kind of identify, I suppose, the register. So of course the difference between a violinist and a cellist is we generally will read three clefs, whereas a violinist would obv, obviously use a higher, uh, pitch. Uh, lots of ledger lines. Um, I'm hopeless with ledger lines, so I love it when composers really do embrace the three clefs that we can use, and of course, tenor clef is that wonderful, tenor range. Uh, whereas that kind of beautiful, kind of almost like a backing vocal kind of range harmony line for the violin. And then there's times in this movement where I actually, I'm higher in pitch than the violin. And that's obviously where the treble clef can come in as well. But generally speaking, there's about a three octave range that we would be employing in this kind of work and it really adds to the expression, because I can weave around the violin up and down and we can really enjoy, uh, that sonority. And that's totally different to using a cello in a different chamber of music setting, such as a string quartet, depending obviously on the, the genre of the composer. But I think it's very song led and very lyrical writing. 
 The most challenging thing about some of the, uh, entries are actually finding the pitches, so to help students, for example, bar 31. That took me about six attempts to actually find that D flat pitch. 'cause you've gotta find it somewhere in the middle of the fingerboard with no, you know, to the point where you go, do I need a sticker? 
 And then there's also a point, um, in 82, which was very difficult, just three beautiful exquisite notes that just kind of comment on what the violin has had. But again, you've gotta find that D flat again, midpoint, and just launch at it and just hope it's there. Particularly in a concert that can be the most stressful two points for me in the work, but obviously in a recording you get a wonderful second chance. 
 [00:29:07] Alison Tenorio: The beauty of recording and going again. Love it. Oh, thanks Louise. 
 [00:29:11] Louise King: No worries. 
 [00:29:12] Alison Tenorio: And, Christa and Louise, I'll ask you this, how did you interpret the score to communicate the music in an expressive way? 
 [00:29:20] Louise King: I reckon there's so many beautiful prompts from Ella. There's so many gorgeous words like playfully and even of course, just graceful at the start. 
 I, those word prompts instantly crystallize the kind of tone palette she's looking for. So I look for those. And then also for me, the use of the bow slurring indicates a lot of legato phrasing, and she's very clear on things like portamentis. You'll see some lines, connecting notes where she wants slides, and those to me are. 
 Are wonderful ways to quickly crystallize how she's wanting to hear the line being played. 
 [00:29:55] Christa Powell: I agree with Louise. I'm song based and I think it shows, uh, Ella's background as well when Ella talked about singer- songwriting as well, because I think that's also why the whole piece lends itself so well to storytelling. 
 And the other thing is just listening to Ella talk about it really. It's helped me interpret, you know, I love the way in

violin part, she does use the entire range of the violin. Um, so right down on the G string to lots and lots of ledger lines and it's beautiful. And plus harmonics, you know, and also just jumping on on the 11/8. So I mean, my instinct would be to play 11/8, quite rhythmic and pulse, but there is a lot of rhythm and pulse and I think personally that rhythm is more expressive harmony. But we won't go into that conversation. But I feel that rhythm is very, very expressive, and I think it's so beautiful in this piece in particular, but it's not an obvious really pounding rhythm, which you could do with 11/8 and would be very expressive. And that's the challenge of the piece, is to be sort of this floating gorgeous long lines and really not get bogged down in any, because you're really thinking about the 11/8. It's really just to make these lines so much longer, but still have this gorgeous undulating of this asymmetric rhythm that's happening, which sometimes has a 10/8 or a 12/8 thrown in as well. 
 And other times where the 11/8 is still 11/8, but it's just felt differently within the bar as well, depending on where the melody is. 
 Yeah, it's beautiful. 
 [00:31:25] Louise King: Yeah. One other tool, expressive tool. We obviously, uh, can. Discuss quickly is just vibrato. I mean, it is an incredibly expressive, um, device for us string players and of course pianists generally wouldn't have that. But I think what's incredible about vibrato in this piece, this repertoire really lends itself to that. But there are beautiful moments where you can just choose to not have any vibrato at all and the harmony just really be very clear and resonant and both Christa and I really enjoy, um, moving between non vibrato to, molto vibrato and I think that's a, a very important toolkit that brings expression, uh, to the foreground. 
 [00:32:22] Alison Tenorio: In the accompaniment, Ella, it's based on a lot of ostinatos, what other pitch features, you know, looking at, uh, melody, harmony, tonality are evident in, um, the composition, the second movement "Eternity" from the Brightest Star in the Night? 
 [00:32:40] Ella Macens: So for me, motifs and motific development is a really big thing that I've, that I like to anchor to in my works. 
 Um, and more than thinking about it as something very technical and theoretical, again, my intuition guides me in that. And what I'm looking for always when I'm composing is, you know, am I singing this melody that I wrote this morning, that evening when I'm cooking dinner? And if I am, then that's a really good sign, like if I can recall it quite quickly and quite easily, um, if it flows very comfortably and fluidly, like for my vocal cords and in my, you know, my kind of singing voice, then generally that's like an intuition that I will follow and I will trust that there's something like really pure and accessible about that and, you know, not that I'm writing for other people, I actually write, it's an expression for myself and of my life, but usually if I trust those instincts for, specifically for the melody, I find that it really resonates with people, whether they're performers or listeners, then that's kind of like what the link is. You know, like if the sentence is clear and meaningful and in intentioned, and by sentence, I also mean like a musical sentence, like a phrase, right? If the, if the feeling of it, the length of it and what it does and what it says or asks is clear, then it's a really beautiful way to, you know, share an idea or a concept in this ever expanding accessible form being music. So for me, when I'm writing, melody is just such a strong part and I feel that in this one, like a lot of these ideas were conceived as vocal melodies. So I think it was Therese who mentioned like there's a singing kind of quality to the work as well. And that's really great that other people can pick up on that 'cause that's how they were also conceived. Harmonically, the music that I write is usually pretty diatonic, and what that means is I have a tendency to stay pretty centered, you know, like in the key area, and use the chords available within that one key. And to extend that, you might add a seventh or a ninth or using versions creatively. 
 In this particular work I did want to, it might come up when we discuss kind of unity in contrast a little bit, but I did want to hint at the melancholic, reflective, part of the story, which is that being 94 means there's a lot of life to process, a lot of life to accept and not so much life left to connect forwards with. And so for me, like more of a minor tonality was a pretty significant thing in that. And not that because, not because it was sad to me, actually, there was a great deal of faith and trust in this whole process for myself personally. But it's a way to, I guess, target or hint at the deeper undercurrents within ourselves, and whether that's the questions we have about challenging situations or the uncertainties that we face in a multitude of different ways. So for me, the opening, for example, doesn't sound happy to me at all, it doesn't necessarily feel sad either, but it's like this liminal space between, there's a pondering, there's an opportunity for reflection, but it's definitely more anchored towards the minor than the major. 
 Um, and then the first shift we hear is at C where we kind of move into a, a happier tonality. It's a bit more optimistic, a bit more, lilting and uplifting and a bit more playful. And you know, in the story behind the work, that was also important for me to show that it's also about the joy of connection, the joy of knowing, and the joy of life. 
 So throughout, you know, listeners will see when they, uh, discover the score that there are a couple of changing key signatures throughout, and really that's to foreground and showcase, I guess the emotive quality of what different keys can provide. And what's interesting is if we were to transpose all of this

up or down, even one semitone, I don't know if I would recognise all of the piece anymore. It would actually feel completely different. So that's something just for, you know, young composers to also play around with is like, where does an idea feel best? And in my experience, it's usually where it was conceived first, because that's actually where it came from. When we're speaking, you know, for more of like a higher consciousness level. 
 And then for the very finale of the composition, you know, our listeners might look at the score and say, wow, okay, there's a lot of accidentals creeping in here, what's going on there? And so I did really, really wanna convey that idea of something, it's almost like the resonance entering the realm that we don't understand so much of, um, the unknown, but it's a very peaceful transition constantly climbing, unfolding, evolving. I liked the idea of this kind of cycle happens quite a few times to end the piece because that really goes to show that although the piece has to end somewhere, I can't ask Muses Trio to play for the rest of their lives in this particular work. But the music kind of hints at that expansive quality and so hence the modulation kind of fragments at the end, um, that are still weaving, you know, the core motif. 
 I think in terms of motific development, the one part that I'd love to highlight is, for example, the interplay between the violin and cello around bar 81, 82, 83, where it's like a technique, what we call fragmentation. So one of the main core melodies is here disperse between, um, the violin and the cello, but we also bring in harmonics as a way to kind of state the melody and the phrase in a slightly unique and different way to show that something is changing. 
 And these are all kind of cues, right? That we're coming to the end of the composition. We've been through the journey and we're now finding a way to put a full stop on something that actually never has a full stop. Yeah. 
 [00:37:58] Alison Tenorio: And you mentioned earlier about unity and contrast. 
 [00:38:01] Ella Macens: Yes. 
 [00:38:02] Alison Tenorio: The elements of music, uh, all interrelated. So we've got our six elements of music, they're interrelated. How do you create contrast and unity within those elements of music? 
 [00:38:14] Ella Macens: Yeah, this was like my absolute favorite question when I was studying Music 1 in high school, 'cause it's the one that I felt, I think the easiest to connect to because it really brings in all the concepts of music into that one what's kind of labeled as its own area of, um, study right. Okay. So. In terms of harmony and melody, I mean, I've just alluded a little bit to the beginning, um, feeling like you know more in the kind of minor tonality and at C we had like a real lift in that, but that's very fleeting after C we've head straight back to where we came from and we kind of revisit that darker more, you know, less transparent kind of mood for, again,

at G the whole, quality of it when you kind of shift keys and you emphasise that major for me in this work, it opens up, it's kind of more inviting, it's less kind of in the head and ruminating and thinking and more. And there's a clearer vision I think at that point. And so the work really oscillates between kind of soloing these artists as well, playing this particular piece, so obviously Therese on the piano like really sets the scene for us. And as the strings start to kind of come in, it's kind of like they're introducing themselves slowly, they are creeping in with the quietest dynamics, which is a big way I think I've created unity and contrast in this work as well in how does each, how does each instrument in this ensemble make their presence known? And sometimes that's creeping in the back door and it's very lyrical and smooth and you know, very held and almost precious. Then there's other moments where, you know, the two string lines are kind of in duet together, and they're never in competition, but they're always complimenting. But someone's always either in the foreground or they're like a combined force singing their, you know, their phrase. 
 So for me, fragmentation, whether it's kind of taking bits apart and highlighting those or kind of bringing them all in into this unified kind of focal centre for probably more dramatic impact than anything else. Yeah, there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Probably be here for a couple of hours, but as I mentioned before, it's also then taking previously heard ideas and maybe hearing it in a different register in a different octave, or maybe it's in a harmonic this time instead of in an ordinary form. So there are all kinds of ways we can rely on and tap into the capabilities of each instrument. There are hundreds of ways that I could have written this, and the trick is actually landing on just a few. 
 And then handing that to the musicians and allowing them to put their spin on it. Yeah. Even, for example, Louise at towards the end of the composition has some beautiful cello like chordal, pizzicatos. I'd like to argue that they're not random, they definitely serve a purpose, and it's knowing sometimes when to use what technique. And for me, I loved that that brought it feeling of groundedness, of like connection to earth and roots it felt like deeper and richer. And I thought that was a really nice, um, quality to bring in as the piece was starting to hint that it was coming to an end. Showing that something has changed and the conversation's gone elsewhere. 
 Yeah. 
 [00:40:54] Alison Tenorio: The students, um, are going to be learning a classroom arrangement, um, of sections G to K. What composer perspective, um, would you like to give the students when they're trying to tell the story for this section? 
 [00:41:09] Ella Macens: I'd love for them all to really lean into what each individual line has to say. And there's kind of a delicate interplay in this of treating it like you're a soloist, but then obviously you're not a soloist and there's certain things that need to be considered when you're playing with a surrounding ensemble. So I guess what I mean by that is I'd love for each individual line to be played as if it's its own perspective, because that's actually what they're all bringing into this. Bring in your, your own individual character and then work out how to balance that out um, with your peers around you. 'cause within that it's a very, it's a very fun opportunity. 
 So yeah, to confidently engage with your individual line and what is the story it's trying to share. You know, are you the foreground, are you the background? Are you the juice in the middle? And regardless of which one you are, you have a very important role to play. So tapping into that role and trusting that, and then finding a balance with all of the players around you, I think that'd be a really fun thing to explore. 
 Yeah. 
 [00:41:59] Alison Tenorio: Christa, Therese and Louise. What is your advice to students as they set out to learn the trio for this section? What challenges did you face that you might be able to give some advice to students for? 
 [00:42:12] Christa Powell: It's actually the hardest bit in the piece. 
 Just such little section. It's beautiful. And I totally agree with, with Ella, is really knowing where you are because there is a section from around 48, uh, or a little bit before, do you recall, Ella, we had endless conversations about this line in the violin? My naturally instinct was, was to play it as the big solo line. In the end it was really brought back a little bit and, and a lot more subdued, but still feeling like a solo line, but not just being ostentatious, I guess. And then, then also, you know, from, from H as well, from 51 that is another classic example of the time signature moving, undulating and moving and really having to think about a really long line. So thinking, you know, 51 all the way through to 63 is a long, line and really being absolutely precise with the rhythm and the time signatures, but not letting the audience feel that you're counting and trying to make it precise. 
 It just is fluid because it is such a beautiful moment in the piece if it just flows and undulates, and yet that's a lot of hard work, work of the ducks legs flapping around under the water to make it happen. 
 [00:43:29] Louise King: Yeah, so trusting Dr. Beat. Um, as a trio, we probably spend a long time just rehearsing with the metric of the, the quaver in there as a, just a general pulse to sit on. 
 We have to get very comfortable with, um, those rhythmic divisions. So trusting Dr. Beat, get your metronome on and really feel free within that metric as well. I think there's also a unifying moment at H where you feel like you kind of arrived somewhere, um, as a collective and then. Commentary, um, behind the scenes as well after that. So again, just knowing what your role is always is

very good in that sense. Yeah. Counting is gonna really give you that success metric, I think, in the section. 
 [00:44:14] Christa Powell: I think also trusting each other as performers as well, because there's a lot of breathing, especially in string players that, you know, Therese really getting, you know, I about performing together for a long time you, you get to know those, how everybody breathes and you breathe differently on your instrument. Even the string players, even, you know, cello and violin breathe differently with, with how the bow works and things like that. So I felt like this section in the piece, you know, when I say it's hard, that's, that's not bad thing. It's, it's just that that is a part of the piece where we really had to do exactly that. Trust each other with how you lean into an upbeat, or how you lean into taking or landing on a note and things like that. Very much choreographed as well on your own instrument. 
 [00:44:55] Alison Tenorio: It's a really important point that collaboration within an ensemble and that you have that understanding of the other members within your ensemble and that you can communicate that effectively within an ensemble. 
 [00:45:09] Louise King: Absolutely. I'm just gonna jump in and say, we're obviously a chamber music group. We don't have the benefit of a maestro conductor in front of us, so we are totally responsible and accountable for our own sense of time, and that is the joy, actually, we can interpret many things, um, in that moment, but therefore there has to be an agreement and a process of discussing those things. We actually bring ourselves to the work much more than we would ever do as string players if we're playing in a large section. And in a large section, we are trained to play the same as everyone else in that section, what I call the cello operator, having played in a professional orchestra, that what it feels like, but you are kind of told what to do you're directed. But, the beauty of chamber music is actually you can have a lot of autonomy, and I think that's obviously what attracts me to it. Yep. 
 [00:45:55] Therese Milanovic: And then I think for any pianist preparing this piece, I think you really ideally want to come to the rehearsal being secure enough in your own part that you can be completely available to react and respond to what the other players are doing. 
 I find that, that this piece with, within that, the metre, it's really about allowing it to unfold and, being present to it rather than like pushing and driving and like kind of, you know, for example, like creating this, this huge climax. Um, it's really more of an organic experience, but for that magic to happen, you need to do the, the not so shiny work of really carefully preparing and, and honing your skills and you're with, with tone production as well, so the range is from double p to mf but within that there has to be so many shades and colours and, um, that's where, that's where you have to sweat a little bit to have that control over your instrument, that it can be at the stage that you can just play with it. You can just react in the moment, which is really beautiful. 
 [00:46:54] Louise King: Yeah, so actually it's all about listening and listening with a kind of mindset of love, actually loving every note you play and being aware that everyone's contributing to that wonderful fabric. So yes, listening, uh, is a very visceral, real thing. Don't just play what you read. You have to be finding something else beyond what you are reading. Listening for that in the space. 
 [00:47:17] Alison Tenorio: I was just going to say it's a very important skill listening to sit back and listen and take it in interpret. 
 [00:47:25] Ella Macens: Also, it might be really helpful for any students and performers gearing up to, you know, play these bars is we've got this amazing recording by the Muses Trio available listening even in the sense of, using your aural skills to be become familiar with the gestures and the motifs and the phrasing and the shape, I mean, we've obviously put so much work into the recording, as we mentioned, and it's just, it's such an exquisite performance that's captured and we're so lucky to have that. And I know if any students are more aurally driven like I am, it might be interesting for them to experience the piece first, almost from the perspective that I, as the composer did. For me, it was an aural experience, first, they're listening to it, although they're not conceiving the idea but listening and getting a sense of the work from that perspective. And then only then once you feel like you're connected with the music through your ears and through your senses, that then you can apply that to your instrument. 
 So that might be an interesting approach to try as well. 
 [00:48:17] Louise King: Yeah, I'd be curious to see what students would do if they just laid on their back and then on, you know, somewhere outside, underneath a bright, beautiful starry sky. You know, you've gotta find that moment. And I would generally say, listen to it without the score first, see what comes up for you in an open hearted way, and then obviously then go into the more research investigative stage. Yeah. Um, but let the piece just come to you in that way. 
 [00:48:44] Ella Macens: And every student or every listener will have their own way to connect with. I mean, obviously I have a, a concept behind the piece, and it's very personal to me, but everyone will be able to find if they want to, will be able to open up and have the vulnerability to tap into their own, their own, I guess take on that particular story, you know, that's woven between, and I feel that's always when you can see when someone's really connected to their personal, you know, what's their personal connection to the idea. 
 It's just undeniable that that brings out the most exquisite performance and the most exquisite presence from that performer.

Which I have been very lucky to see here with these amazing musicians. 
 [00:49:21] Christa Powell: I, I think also humming and singing some of the motifs. It really internalising it Also, even just with the time signature play around, do your own improvisation on that time signature and moving in and out of, you know, 11/8, 12/8, 10/8. 
 And just really embody that. Certainly as a younger musician, I think that's really important, but some of them, the melodies are very soul like, so they're easy to absorb. 
 [00:49:48] Alison Tenorio: As we are moving now towards the end of our podcast, what piece of advice, Ella, would you give students to support their understanding of "Eternity"? 
 [00:49:59] Ella Macens: So I think it's really exciting and important to remember that we don't need a million different ideas to create a musical work. And sometimes just a few ideas used in creative and interesting ways is an all we need to create. Um, a short or a long musical composition. And so one idea that I would love to perhaps suggest is how about grabbing, you know, four to five different coloured highlighters and going through and seeing what patterns you, yourselves can find in this musical score? And in doing so, I think it will show you that even in the kind of trickier patches where it looks, very complex material. You'll actually find that there's somewhere else previously in the piece where you've highlighted that same idea, the same colour, and I think then when you can kind of connect this map together, suddenly it let looks less like a lot of different ideas that you have to learn in isolation and more like, oh, well here's this particular fragment that I heard in a phrase at the start in the piano, and how was it played in the piano line, or how was the idea interpreted there? You can kind of start to connect the dots, like a, like a big puzzle. I've done that with a number of students analysing this piece before and they've always gone, oh wow, so actually there's not that much going on here. It's just, you know, where is it being played and how is it being played, and who is it playing to, and are they responding in the same way? 
 So I've always found that to be really interesting experience from a compositional perspective to pull that piece apart and actually unveil what's beneath. I think when we hear it, we intuitively just trust it. I think this music feels quite easy to trust and easy to surrender to, and to let it guide you as the listener. 
 And it's sometimes quite exciting to see the score and find it a bit daunting, but then you pull it to pieces yourself and you realise, actually I do understand the core features that are, you know, weaving this tapestry together. 
 [00:51:42] Alison Tenorio: And Therese. Christa, And Louise, what advice would you give to students as they listen, play and explore, Ella's piece "Eternity". 
 [00:51:51] Louise King: Embodying the rhythm helps me moving, so the idea of embodiment, actual gesturing, interpretive dance, you know, they'd be able to feel the metric. I think let your imagination go wild. Perhaps try and imagine almost like a film, what would you be kind of creating if there was a visual component to this? 
 Also imagine movement. How, how would that feel in your body to actually kind of sway or gesture along with the lines. Um, and another thing I always talk about is, music at the moment is printed black and white, yet I never think in black and white. I'm always thinking texture, timbre, colours. So perhaps colour in the score. Now that would be fun. 
 [00:52:33] Christa Powell: I think definitely listen to this piece, the recording. The number one advice I would give a young musician learning it is don't be scared of time signatures, which you'll find a lot in in young people. Yeah, and I agree with Louise as well, embody it and move. Do a mum dance. 
 [00:52:52] Therese Milanovic: What a wonderful opportunity to get your hands on this beautiful piece. 
 So if you do play one of these three instruments, don't stop it, just listening to the CD, you know, actually learn it and get people together in the room and, and experience it because it is just such a different experience to be in the middle of music being created as opposed to being a passive listener. 
 And then once that's done, I mean, for me, music is, it's not enough just to play for myself it has to be shared, and I think that's how we keep this tradition alive and how music continues to live on is through the minds and hearts of bodies of the next performers who take this piece. So I would love to hear of many trios playing this whether its to family and friends or at a school concert or whatever that might be. 
 I guess I suggest to people to, if there is a recording to listen at, at the start, um, so that you have a sense of the whole, and so that when you're learning your individual part, you can hear the other lines so you really know how your part fits into the whole. But then to put the recording away and to really let it seep and, and form your own interpretation and find your own way through it. 
 And then. I quite like to go back just before the concert and listen again, and often if that recording, the initial recording just seems like a completely different piece because I've journeyed and you know, found my own pathway through it. And so you might come back and find things that you'd loved and things that you'd forgotten, or things that you might say, I really respect that, but I'd actually like to do that differently and that's completely valid and welcomed as well. 
 [00:54:24] Alison Tenorio: Thank you so much, Ella, Therese, Christa, and Louise for joining us today to explore "Eternity" from the Brightest Star in the Night by Ella Macens. It has been so wonderful to hear each of your perspectives of composing, interpreting, and performing the work, the collaboration between you, Ella and Muses Trio members, Therese, Louise, and Christa has been such an important part of becoming familiar with, and understanding the story that needs to be told and how best to present that story to the audience. Again, thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives with us today. 
 Ella Macens "Eternity" is one of the works studied in the Stage 5 Music of our solar system unit. 
 The unit and resources are available on the New South Wales Department of Education Creative Arts curriculum website. A link has been provided in the description, the copyright permissions for the second movement of the Brightest Star in the Night "Eternity" have been granted by composer Ella Macens and Muses Trio organisation, Muses Trio. 
 [00:55:44] Acknowledgement: This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes. Or email Jane Mcdavitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. 
 The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts advisor, Alex Manton.