Jakson The Nightmare Before Christmas (1993) Review: Stop-Motion Magic | Buffalo Bill’s Basement täydellinen litterointi

kind steve: Wow. That got me. Right. Right, yeah, exactly. Stephen: of thing. It's The the promotion of the movie Richard Marquand is not selling you on Return of the Jedi. I think George Lucas is the one you're going for. But Nightmare Before Christmas, there's been documentaries made, you know, behind the movies made. Netflix Netflix did their whole thing. steve: Mm-hmm. I've I've watched them all too. Mm-hmm. Stephen: not a at first well-received movie. critically, even you know, box box offically did not do well. for for a couple years, even, and then I don't know if it was the DVD release or what kind of like Disney marketing push they did that it hit with something somewhere, and now it's like steve: Right, a s a staple of Halloween. Stephen: It i i it is insane, like just the Jack Skellington merch alone that they sell, like the Jack pants or like the pinstripe pants, like all that stuff, like it it's gotta be a huge chunk of Disney's Halloween merch steve: Mm-hmm. I don't think Stephen: alone. steve: we had much nightmare before Christmas stuff for Halloween this year, but la up till last year we still had a good amount of Halloween stuff that was nightmare before Christmas. Yeah, yeah. Coop: I remember distinctly last year, Jack in his Santa outfit. Yeah. steve: But I d I haven't seen any this year. So maybe it's fallen Stephen: I mean, it's kind steve: off a bit. Stephen: it's kind of like a a really smart move for Disney because it's Halloween you think of either like more adult stuff like slashers, like actual Halloween, Michael Myers, you know, those kind of steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: guys. scary costumes. on the kid's side, or like not fully, you know, not necessarily kid, but not adult, there's not much in that Halloween space of like i you know, like things to watch. steve: the I'm thinking about it now. The only other thing kids show I can think of that comes out of Halloween is Charlie Brown, the Great Pumpkin. Other than that, what do they have? Nothing. Yeah. Right. And she's all she's all hooked. definitely. Stephen: Right. Mm-hmm. So I think I think it's always been popular, I guess for that reason, because I was saying, our niece is watching it. She's not even three years old and it's her new favorite movie. I think part of that is the musical element. 'Cause I mean the music is great. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: And then it's just like a Again, it's a it's a way for kids or whoever's to participate in the Halloween if and if you're not really into the big scary kinda stuff. and and Halloween Halloween anymore isn't a weird a weird place. It's like it's it's still big obviously with like my generation, my crowd, but like people don't dress up anymore. Trick or treat is not as much of a thing anyway. Trick or treat like dead. steve: Trigger tree is practically dead. Stephen: It's like trunk or treat now is the new thing. which is nothing wrong with that. It's a cool thing. but just like Halloween used to have a lot more or at least

it felt like this as a kid at least have a have a lot more like of a feeling Yeah steve: It's dead. Yeah, it's trunk or tree, yeah. dude, you you don't even you think it was big when you were a kid? You should have been me when I was a kid. Forget about it. ha Halloween was it. that's back before when we had mischief night too. mischief night completely fell off the map. I don't know when, probably somewhere in last ten years, maybe even more. But you kids don't know anything about mischief night. Really? Yeah, no one did it. No, ours no, our ours was like, Stephen: When when I was growing up it existed and people will talk about it, but no one did it. No one did it. At least no one in our neighborhood did it. Yeah. steve: yeah, we geared up, we bought the eggs, we made plans. yeah, dude. Yeah. it was it was a thing. Yeah, yeah. We got chased by cops, yeah. The whole the whole thing. Stephen: Nope. You get you get to go to the school and you get to eat candy out of someone's car. steve: Right. And it's weird because I think like people don't trust their neighbors now and don't know who their neighbors are. And that's Stephen: y that's a big part of it, yeah. steve: why they don't trick or treat. You know what mean? Stephen: Yeah, I don't I don't know if it's just nobody goes out or they go down like Main Street, but like at our apartment complex, last year we put out a candy bowl, not one person touched it. So but I think I think that's that that might be more of the area 'cause there are a lot of kids in the general area, but we are close steve: Yeah, because they don't know who you are. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Stephen: to the main street of a town. steve: Right. Yeah. Stephen: So I think a that gets a lot of traffic. So I think if you're a kid in the apartments, instead of going up and down stairs for all these different buildings, you're just gonna go straight shot. steve: Because usually being back here, not to cut you off, but I did. back here in Pennypot. We used to see a good amount. Last year, maybe five groups of kids came up to the you know, came up to the driveway because I always shut the lights off for the last couple of years. I'm home all by myself because everybody's at Nanny's. So, I think five people might have approached the driveway last year and that's it. Five groups of kids, maybe. That's it. Before we used to get like Forty groups of kids. Easy, you know what mean? Right. Stephen: It's it's definitely dying a slow, slow death of everyone hates each other and Coop: I can speak to this as the candy hander outer. I think because perpendicular to South Stephen: you don't get any candy. Coop: Liberty where Nam lives is Grape Street and 'cause our uncle cousin doesn't big over there, I think everyone flocks to Grape Street and we get like the scraps. Yeah, I get like nothing when I hand out candy. steve: Grape does get a lot of action. I'll give that to you. Yeah. Yeah. Stephen: Just so you guys Coop: Yeah. Stephen: are aware, I'm censoring the names of the streets you guys are saying. Cause not that it's a huge deal, but I don't like yeah, I don't like peep people knowing where I live. but I could I can Coop: yeah, yeah, yeah. steve: yeah, yeah. No problem. No problem. This is where my nanny lives, yeah. I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. Coop: No, but I probably shouldn't have Yeah no. I hear you bro, I hear ya. Stephen: it'll just be muted so you'll sound like a crazy person saying where you live. But Coop: Mm-hmm. Stephen: let's talk about let's talk about characters here. steve: Let's get back to this nightmare before Christmas. Yeah. Stephen: Jack. Way cooler in his first costume before he comes i i in his skeleton pumpkin costume before he puts on his little suit jacket for the rest of the movie. When he's the pumpkin king, yeah. Way cooler. Jack, Sally, Zero, Lock Shock, and Barrel. One of them one of them steve: you like Pump you mean Pumpkin King? Pumpkin King is like the best. Stephen: is Mr. Bean, we we learned. I don't know which one. steve: Right. Mr. Bean. Well, for years I didn't know who Stephen: it's one of them. Oogie Boogie, obviously. Great villain. R.I.P. he died he died recently. steve: Sally was. I didn't find out who Sally was till after Shits Creek. Yeah. I was like, whoa, that's her. I was like, whoa. Then you c yeah, you can't miss it once once you know, yeah. Stephen: Really? I definitely the s definitely the same for me, and then you go back and watch it and it's almost obvious who it is. Yeah. It's like one of those, yeah. It's it's it's like, it it's it was obvious to her. She's also one of the three kids. I think she's the girl, obviously. steve: Yeah. She's the girl, yeah. Stephen: but those professor god. steve: Professor Finkelstein. Or Finkelstein, yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you're getting it wrong. Professor Finkelstein, yeah. Now the Stephen: Finkelstein. I wanted to say that, but it sounded it sounded wrong. Yeah. Finkelstein, and then you got all the the the mayor. I I always I always liked it, Mayor, and with the with the twisty head. steve: matter's cool. Stephen: Yeah. steve: Mayor School. Stephen: yeah, but super basic story. Guy is the main man in Halloween town where Alright, let's try to get this straight. In in Halloween Town is Halloween every day. Like the the they don't really steve: Yes. Or wait, no, it's Halloween. Yeah, that's weird. It's not Halloween every day. It's Halloween once a year, but all they do is get ready for Halloween. Stephen: It's not. Yeah. steve: that's all they do is prepare for Halloween. Stephen: Right. So so I I was thinking that because when they're talking after they do the whole thing and they do the whole song and the Pumpkin King, I think the werewolf character, I'm assuming his name is Mr. Werewolf. steve: Yeah. Yeah, he says three hundred sixty four more days till Halloween, yeah, right. Stephen: says something about three hundred and sixty-four more days to go or something like just Right.

Right. So so it's like they just did it and now we're counting back down the Halloween. But But you live in this world where every you're you're you're Halloween all the time but also the one day? It doesn't make sense. And then when they when Jack steve: Right, that's that's their whole thing is Halloween. That's all they care about. Right. Stephen: goes to see I I I like the the world of these movies because it's never explained which is good. I hate over explaining any anything. But he's out in the forest and he goes to the where all the different seasons are or holidays steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: trees are and he opens up the one to Christmastown And it also is presumably Christmas every day in there, plus also Christmas Day. Christmas land, steve: Well, not Chris not Christmas, it's Christmas like land, so Stephen: yeah. steve: It's they're at the North Pole the whole time. The elves, everybody run, and all they're doing is making presents, getting ready for Christmas, which comes one day a year. So I imagine Stephen: Yeah. steve: it comes on the same day, December 25th, if they even have calendars. But yeah, so every day is just leading up to Christmas. And it's, that's their big, big blowout one time of year is Christmas. Even though they live in a constant Christmas atmosphere. Right. Right. Stephen: Yeah. Yeah, I think. Right, exactly. Maybe the idea though is like like you just said, like elves make presents. Maybe this is like there also existed land in our world where someone has to make the Halloweeness of it all. You know, and that and that's what they do. so it's it's basically that same idea. So it's really not that far fetched when you do it like that, but steve: Well, that's what they do, yeah. They just Right. Stephen: It's kinda funny overthinking it yeah, it's just Halloween every day for these guys. but as we do this episode, I I do have some trivia. I'll share with you my facts and figures I've collected. so steve: I'll I'll see I'll see what you got and I'll add a interesting tidbit that I know you're not going to give me with the trivia. But go ahead and give it to me. Stephen: so I've got a couple different categories, but I'll just do one at a time and I'll sprinkle them out. one of them I already alluded to. Tim Burton did not direct the movie, even though it is called Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas. Henry Selleck was the director. Tim Burton was the producer, designed it, and he wrote the poem that this movie came from. But he was directing Batman Returns when they were doing this. steve: Right, right, right. cool. Right. Mm-hmm. Stephen: So he was physically unable to direct this movie. So he he said, Hey, make it like this, do this. steve: And interesting, Stephen: I'm sure he steve: if you have ever seen Batman Returns, it almost has that same same vibe to it. Stephen: Yes. Yes. It E even with like the like the Right, I was gonna say that the p all the penguin stuff reminds me of Christmas. steve: It's Halloween, it's Christmas, you know what mean? It's like the same movie, yeah. Mm-hmm. Stephen: I mean it's kind of hard to spend however much time he did creating this idea, living in this world. Then going to have to do another movie. It y you would think that a lot of those ideas would just kind of like be in your head, and he's like, let's just do this. unfortunately, Batman Returns is not great, I'll say. Yeah, it's it's a little too Burton-y. He he kinda was huffing his own farts a little too steve: Right. Whoa. Stephen: much on that one. is is like Coop: Who's the sorry Stephen: what's up? steve: Go ahead, boy. Penguin. Yeah, Danny Tavito penguin. Coop: I was gonna say who's the big bad in Batman Returns? Who's the villain? Is that the when Davido was Penguin? Okay, yeah. Stephen: Penguin. De Vito Penguin, yeah. I was like, as iconic as he is and Catwoman is, the movie is just not not great. But it's okay. I o the only the the the one thing I remember about Batman Returns is the DVD cover. And it was one of the DVD covers with the the flap. You opened it with the plastic thing and then you opened it and the disc was inside. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: I remember that's how we had it. And the and I just remember it w I think the poster was like their heads stacked up on top of each other with cat w Catwoman, Batman and Penguin. S yeah. Yeah. steve: I think it's I think it's a full moon somewhere. Yeah, and it's like Batman Penguin and what you would call it. Yeah. Stephen: But anyways. Tim Burton wrote the Nightmare Before Christmas poem in nineteen eighty two when he was working for The Disney Company has a young a young little lad. and this was his thing for like the reason it's so rich and has all these things is he was working on this idea for what, like fourteen years at that point, like by the time they did the movie. and he wanted it to be a TV special or a book, steve: Wow. Stephen: and Disney said it was too weird. So kind of like the ultimate steve: And now they're now they're catching them chicks, baby. How weird is it now, yeah. How weird is it now? Too weird. Right. Stephen: Yeah, the ultimate egg on their face, yo, this is too weird and now it it we sell billions of dollars in jack pajamas a year. it c it kinda makes me wonder how many other ideas by like v veteran animators or even, you know, everyday employees were turned down because of this, that and the other. They could have been, something like this. Yeah, 'cause in a lot of the documentaries steve: Could have been the next big one, yeah. Stephen: they show, working in Disney animation during the so called Res Renaissance was like it almost seemed like hell on earth. Like, it was just not a good time to be a creative Mm hmm Yeah. People hated him. steve: Well the dude that was in charge that Jeffrey Katz or Katzenberg he was ruthless dude people hated that guy Stephen: That's the one thing I y you'll know about him is people hated him. Even if you've never seen him, they

Right. Right, so it was like is that in spite of him or is it steve: But he made well under him they made some of the best films though Right Stephen: his his Coop: What was like he was like a art creative director? what was the steve: No, he hadn't exactly he didn't he didn't know how to draw a a friggin' stick figure, but Stephen: I think he was the head of Disney animation. He didn't do anything creatively. Yeah. Coop: Yeah. steve: he was just in charge of the animation studio. Coop: I think there's a I was watching an interview with a guy who was a Beauty and the Beast animator and he talks about arguing with him I think. over some background in Gaston's room. steve: Yeah. Stephen: Yeah, the i in in a lot of the documentaries it it comes up. Coop: Yeah. steve: And he finally left Disney because he thought he was going to get the the call to the major leagues and he got passed over and then he quit and that's when he started DreamWorks Studio. And that's where Sh and that's where Shrek came from. Coop: He started DreamWorks? A settlement? Wow. Stephen: That was a fun fact on top of my fun fact. steve: There you go. Stephen: last little bit on this section, the original poem only was Jack Zero and Santa Claus, Sally Mayer, Finkelstein, and Oogie Boogie were created for the movie to make it full length. Even even though this is kind of a short movie, I don't think you could stretch this out that long with only three characters. Obviously you're gonna do steve: Well see, you missed you Stephen: All that stuff, but steve: missed my fun fact, trivia. Did you know that Danny Elfman originally I don't know if he originally was the voice for Jax going to, but I know he sang the songs. I think he did both. And then they said, now we're gonna go totally. They went with a different because Jax has he has a speaking voice and a singing voice. And originally Danny Elfman did both. There's a lot of lines recorded in his voice. Yeah. Right. Stephen: that's that sounds familiar. They didn't like his speaking voice or s like that that sounds like something that always gets parroted somewhere. steve: Right. I think his songs were okay, but yeah, I think they didn't like his speaking voice. And I didn't know this till later on either. I think it's his singing voice is man. Is that bad guy from The Princess Bride? Jack Skellington's. that's it, that's right. That's his Okay, okay. Stephen: Whose singing voice? That's his speaking. Danny Elfman's his singing voice. Sarandon is his talking voice. Chris Sarandon. steve: So Elfman is the singing voice still? Okay, I thought he was both. Or they wanted him to be both and they didn't give him either one. Stephen: Elfman is a singing voice, yeah. No. That's what it sounds like. Chris Sarandon is his talking voice. steve: Okay. Stephen: To be honest, it you can like kind of tell, but I'm surprised they didn't just have Danny Elfman do it all. steve: Right. how different do you have to make your voice sound? You can't talk, yeah. they probably didn't want him getting two checks, that's all. Or three checks, actually. Stephen: How ho how t how hard can it be? You can sing but you can't do the lines. You can write the songs but you can't talk But also I was just about to say, is it a way to Is it a way to cheap out a little bit on casting? But you still have to pay another guy steve: Right, yeah. Stephen: for for an effect that like nobody notices? I don't know. y you watch it and y you you recognize more of his singing voice than you do his talking voice. steve: Right. Stephen: But to be fair it does sound different. I I I I I don't think. Yeah. You could you could have been Jack. But can you do can you do the can you do the singing voice? steve: He sometimes has that like he's almost seems like he's got that booming voice when he's talking. come here, zero he kinda talks like that, yeah. I could have. Pretty sweet, huh? Coop: Yeah, I was gonna say, damn. Hmm. steve: No. See that's where I would have problems. Like I could do the talking, I can't do the singing. That guy at church could do the songs though. man. Stephen: You gotta sing the songs. Yeah. Yeah. Could have saved a couple million. So this I mean this is a weird thing too. obviously Tim Burton, friends with Danny Elfman at this point doing Batman. steve: Right. Stephen: It did like, did he approach him and just say, Hey, do you want to sing this character in my movie? It was probably like steve: No, I think before they found a voice or whatever, I think Danny just took it upon himself and started recording the songs. he was so into the character, he was just like, I'm gonna do this myself. And he just recorded, he started recording everything. And then when they were listening to him in the playbacks or whatever, they said, Okay, yeah, the songs are good, but I don't like the way you sound when you talk. Stephen: Sounds pretty accurate, because that's actually my next trivia piece. There was no script when production started. Burton brought Elfman storyboards and character sketches, and Elfman wrote the song straight from those. And steve: Right. Stephen: then screenwriter Carolyn Thompson built the screenplay around the finished songs. So steve: Pretty cool, huh? Stephen: Which makes sense because it's kind of dialogue light and I think once you already have the songs in place, I think it's a lot harder to say, start movie, finish movie, let's pepper in some songs. I think it's much easier to say, Alright, let's do a song here, here, here, here, and let's just write some lines to connect the dialogue like that. Like I always think about that when we watch a musical or something. Like, how are you creating this dialogue so perfectly around the songs? But it's like one once the s if you do the songs first and you kinda know what beats you have to hit, you're just writing characters, walking over here, talking to this guy, whatever, but Pro steve: Right, it could be ho hum stuff, you know what I mean?

Just Stephen: Right. So that's how they did that. It's it just seems like a weird not a weird pick, obviously, because like I said, they're friends, but D I'm thinking of Danny Elfman's career trajectory from Boingo Boingo to one of the first things he had to do is a Simpsons theme, right? Just 'cause how old it is. To Simpsons. To steve: definitely. Yeah. Simptons was eighty two, I think. Coop: eighty nine. Stephen: could have retired after the Simpsons theme, let's be honest. from the steve: Yeah, right. Stephen: royalties from that, to Batman, and then you know, all his Burton stuff and then Spider Man, whatever. Those those superhero themes. he done a t a ton, yeah. steve: Then he's done a ton of stuff in the late years for Disney. He did a whole new song for Hong Kong Disney for their haunted mansion. they don't have they don't have Stephen: he did that song? steve: Grim Grinning Ghosts or whatever. They have whatever song he made. in Mystic Manor, the one with the monkey. Yeah, he did that. He came up with that whole thing. Yeah, he's been doing a lot of stuff that you wouldn't even know about for Disney. Stephen: Yeah, I didn't know he did that. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, so I guess he's a Disney payroll guy now, but Yeah. Just it's it's funny, like I was just saying, when you think of superhero themes, it's like, yeah. John Williams Superman, you have whatever. Alan Sylvestri did the Avengers. Excuse me. steve: Right. Stephen: He did Batman and Spider-Man, which are like I when people probably your generation or even into mine think of like good superhero theme songs, it's one of those two. Batman is right up there with with the Superman song. For me, the the 89 Batman. steve: Right. Uh-huh. Stephen: Like like we said, the the Hans Zimmer, great for the movie, more more of like a score. and the Giachino Patentson is is good as well, but like the eighty nine one is like that's a theme song. Like for Batman. That's steve: yeah, dude. Yeah. yeah. Stephen: Batman's song. But I guess that's just how good he is. He had that sauce, that's why they let him be Jack Skellington. steve: And it was weird. I was watching a movie maybe a month ago, and the credits started rolling either in the beginning or the end. And I saw music by Danny Elfman and I was like, what? And it it Stephen: Mm-hmm. steve: was like a movie you'd never attach him to. And I can't think of what it was. But I was like, wow. I was like, wow, yeah. Stephen: I'm gonna h hold on, let's let's play a short little game. I'm gonna IMDB Danny Elfman. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna see if I can steve: And it's one of the later films, not like in the nineties or the two thousands. It's somewhere between twenty ten and twenty twenty six, which is a sixteen year span, but still. Stephen: look real quick and guess. Guess what movie you watched. Yeah. steve: Go ahead. I was beside myself when I failed I was like, What? Danny Elfman Stephen: Right. Let's see how many Okay. Well he was the music

department for a hundred and twenty-five series, which is crazy. steve: Jesus. Stephen: Music Department, which I guess is just like on the team. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: Composer 143 times. Let's see. damn, he does a lot. he was the composer on the Universal Ride Monsters Unchained. Pretty cool. steve: No kidding. That's cool. Stephen: Yeah. steve: Now that I think of it, that does have like it you I can always tell an Elfman song. It's got a a certain twang to it. You know what I mean? A certain magical twang. And now that I think about that ride, I I I can see that being him. Stephen: I don't know what it is you watched. Well f first of all I'm looking. steve: Give me the last two on the list. Stephen: Alright, the la It was it real steel? steve: 'Cause I haven't seen that in a while, but that one does catch me off guard too. Stephen: So so I'm just gonna go through his list. The ones that catch me kind of off guard. Terminator Salvation. Ooh, random one. Real Steel in 2011. Avengers Age of Ultron. I thought Alan Silvestre did all those, but I guess not. Justice League 2017. And then just a bunch of newer steve: That could be it, mm to be honest. Wow. I knew it wasn't that. Stephen: stuff. His last two are Stuart Fails to Save the Universe, the new big bang theory show, and send help. steve: No, I wouldn't have watched either one of those. It might have been, to be honest with you, either Terminator Salvation or what the other one I just said. Justice. No, the one before Justice League. Coop: I remember you watching Terminator Dad, it might have been that. Stephen: Maybe in that steve: Yeah, it might have been. Coop: Wait, what what year was that movie though, Steve O? Stephen: Two thousand nine. Salvation is two thousand nine, yeah. Yeah, it could be. steve: Well we were watching a different Terminator, but before that, about maybe a month ago, I was watching Salvation. Yeah. Salvation's the one with John Connor. Coop: okay. Stephen: Yeah. The one with John Connor. Yep, that's the one. Yes, the Christian Bale one where he had his freak out. Yeah. steve: One that n nobody likes? Yeah. the one where Christian Bale's John Connor. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Stephen: He he did Doctor Strange too as well. So I guess right after he was a Tim Burton he was a Sam Raimi guy 'cause sp that makes sense, Spider Man, to Doctor Strange. Yeah, I've got s Age of Ultron's kind of shocking me. I Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I mean I'm think steve: That w they maybe that one was it too. That's cause you said that one and I I I know I've been watching Age of Ultron. So maybe it was that one. Stephen: I'm thinking obviously Alan Sylvestre did the Avengers theme. But it doesn't mean he'd compose the music for the rest of this movie. steve: Right, exactly. Stephen: Just seems kind of funny. and then upcoming. Ooh, he's got two upcoming things. two things I've never heard of. Okay, it won't even mention them. steve: here we go. Okay. Stephen: But back to the movie. steve: Okay, back to

the movie. Who's your favorite character and why is it Gennaro? Why? Why? Why is it Gennaro? Is it because he has that awesome line? no I can't think of the line. no, it's hope he never dies. Or hope he doesn't die. That's it. Someone is talking about Jack being whatever and and he goes, Stephen: huh. steve: Hope he is hope he doesn't die as he's walking by. Yeah. Stephen: I think steve: And why is it Gennaro? Why? Stephen: I was saying I th I like the mayor a lot. I don't know. I I was gonna say I like the Wolfman too, but he doesn't do much. Doesn't have much I do like the I do like he is very cool. steve: I like the wolf man. He's cool. Yeah. I know, he doesn't have much lines, but he's cool. He is very cool. Stephen: Very cool. And the whole the whole the Oogie Boogie classic Coop: I like Oogie. Oogie. steve: Oogie Boogie's cool too. you can't go wrong with Oogie Boogie. Stephen: Just like a like such a simple design, like a sack full of bugs, but they make it work. I like his I like his I like his like roulette wheel, like his little Yeah. He's the coolest guy. Here's the thing steve: It's just like a big potato a big green potato sack, yeah. A big burlap sack, yeah. Mm-hmm. His his stuff is cool, his layer is cool. It's got those playing cards and stuff. Stephen: They're all It like i in the business of scaring people. They have the wolf man, they have various Dracula vampires. W steve: And which is right. Stephen: why do they have a bad guy? Like, why is steve: Ha ha ha Stephen: there one guy there who's worse than all the other ones? steve: He's for naughty kids. You know, like the good kids get the funs, the good scares. These Stephen: He's like yeah, he's like Halloween Santa. Right. steve: like, hey, you're been you've been real d dirty. I'm gonna s we're gonna send Oogie Boogie after ya. You know what I mean? Coop: Yeah. steve: Yeah. Right, yeah. Stephen: Yeah. And obviously the movie needs a villain, I guess, so you can say that, but it's just funny, all the Halloween steve: Yeah, what's his purpose there? Stephen: monsters are already accounted for in this movie, and then there's an even worse guy that we just made up. steve: Right. Stephen: That you don't w that will kill you. I was just thinking of that. I was thinking I th I they have Yeah steve: It's weird they don't have a Frankenstein guy though. they have Dr. Finkelstein, but he's like more like the doctor. But there's no Frankenstein guy, Stephen: He is the yeah, he is the the Frankenstein-y. Mm-hmm. steve: I'm like sad a little bit. Stephen: is it not Sally also? you know what I mean? Yeah, her character is the steve: yeah yeah, now that you think about it, yeah. She's a female Frankenstein, yeah. Stephen: Frankenstein character, but straight up they don't have a bolt through the head looking guy. A classic universal monster man. steve: Right, right. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, Sally Frankenstein. Stephen: Yeah, he's the doctor, she's the monster. Boom, I just blew your mind. Boom. Boom. steve: Right. She's a creature. Boom. Mind blown. Wow. Stephen: But yeah, and and and the whole time we're talking about this, we haven't really talked about the stop motion aspect. And I think that's another reason why this movie will hold up forever. If it was just like steve: yeah. Stephen: traditionally anim if it was hand-drawn, sure. steve: Yeah. Stephen: That's another thing. But if it was like 3D animated at the time steve: Yeah. Stephen: I think it would have faded into obscurity, but steve: Right. Stephen: this movie holds every stop motion movie I've ever seen ha holds up. steve: I know. Mm-hmm. Stephen: Because there's nothing really aging it. You're you're steve: Right. You can't yeah. Stephen: you're looking at something that's not real, you know, it's just steve: Right. Stephen: puppets or whatever it is, you know, steve: I think that's a cool thing too. You can't put a time on it. Stephen: No. steve: when you look at the Rankin Bass Christmas stuff, you can kinda tell th because they look a little old, but a good stop motion movie, you you can't put a time on it. Stephen: They look old, yes. But yeah. They look old ju i I think just because the techniques weren't exactly dialed in yet and steve: Right. Stephen: filmmaking was still kinda or earlier on wasn't exactly perfect. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: but with this, I mean we're almost in the two thousands, we've got I was gonna say I would assume it's a digital camera, but it might be shot on film. I really have no idea. But steve: Hell yeah, that's a good one. Stephen: because this is pre Phantom Menace, and that was like the big movie to steve: Right. Stephen: kick off the digital movies. So probably still shooting on film. but steve: I would assume it's film. Yeah. I don't think it's digital. why would you shoot it in digital? Yeah, you don't need to. Stephen: Yeah, the digital wasn't digital was a thing, but it wa the peop people didn't know what you could do with it really yet. No. steve: 'Cause you're not doing any effects on it, yeah, so Stephen: and film was still giving r I mean today, for the ease of a digital camera and the output you get, no one's gonna shoot on film if you don't have to. steve: Right. Stephen: or you're you're going for like a certain grain. But yeah, probably probably shot on film, but like all of the Character, all the puppet work and everything is amazing. It's it really helps. It has a specific style. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: a very locked-in theme, and ever it's all very dark and spooky and steve: Right. Stephen: whatever, and kinda helps sell you on the whole stop motion thing. But e every time I see one of these movies, it's like I can cannot imagine that being my day job and working on something like that. steve: my god, you'd be locked in for five years, man. Stephen: And the thing is, they didn't know it was gonna be good for a while after it came out. It was a flop. So steve: It yeah, it sucked. Yeah. Stephen: you

you give years of your life to this thing, you painstakingly steve: Yeah. Stephen: reset, set it back up. let's get Jack Face number 100 for this scene. steve: Do you realize every day on that sh on that when you're on that crew, you go to work every day, right? You spend a whole day there. You probably got three seconds of film pr per day. That that was it. That's it. Yeah. Stephen: Probably. Mm-hmm. And and that's a s that's a suc that's a success for your team. Coop: god. steve: You got three seconds of action on the ca on the film that day. That would seem like such an uphill battle. Oof. Stephen: Yeah, all I I I I do have some more stats on that, but but we'll get into it. And this was even back then. Today, when like Leica does it, they have much easier remote control setups. You're just clicking a remote saying, okay, shot, shot, reset, shoot, steve: Right. Stephen: shoot, shoot. You're you're doing it a lot quicker, but this is manual reset. Turn the camera off, turn the camera on. steve: Yep. Yep. Stephen: let's move this out, let's get this in here. very just it seems like f no pun intended, like a nightmare to work on this. And steve: Right. Stephen: he probably didn't have the biggest budget in the world. 'Cause steve: Nope. Stephen: it was like Tim Burton's pet project. You know, b they'll give blank check to go do a Batman, but they're like, yeah, your stop motion Christmas or Halloween movie steve: Right, yeah. Stephen: yeah, you'll get a couple million, I guess, just to cover steve: Yeah. Stephen: like materials and cast you know everything else is just labor. steve: Right. Stephen: It all all the thing is just artists who work on, hey, yeah, Steve, for the next month you're gonna be moving zero down the street. Okay, bye. steve: Ha ha ha. Stephen: And you better do it. You that week you better give your, you know, 30 seconds of footage turned in. steve: Right. That's crazy, man. Stephen: It's it's like insane to me that people First of all, th I mean, just the idea of stop motion film is so impressive, just like that we figured this out at all. Can can do it in long stretches like this to make a feature length movie. steve: Mm. Stephen: and then you just put it together so flawlessly. And I mean for I I'm considering this movie old. It's really not, but steve: Yeah. Stephen: for this to be one of the like probably the oldest of the modern stop motion movies, 'cause I'm thinking like After this, couple years later was like Corpse Bride, and then Coraline, and then the rest of the Leica steve: Right. Stephen: stuff came out. That's when it really was like they started doing their thing. But man, like y you could literally watch this anytime and just sit back and just get right into it. There's no like you said, there's no rankin' bass, this looks like it was made in the thirties, you know, for whatever reason. steve: Right. Right. When I was in eighth grade, I was in like some kind of media class, I made a stop motion like not a movie, like a little blurb. Stephen: Mm-hmm. steve: It was race cars, two race cars like Formula One. It was one guy passing another guy. So I had the one car It was from the front. You see it his fully as close to the screen as you can get, as big as you can get. And then you see the other guy pretty small and b besides him. He's coming up, he's coming up, he's coming up, he's coming up. Right is there even, I switch to a top down view to show the guy going around him and getting in front of him and pulling away. And then I show it from the back, you know, the one guy pulling away and his lights getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Stephen: Yeah. steve: And and that's that's my contribution to stop motion. It took me like two weeks to make it. Yeah, it took me like two Stephen: I was gonna say how long it'd take you to do that. steve: weeks and all I had to do was draw pictures. So it was like, you know, stop motion, but Stephen: Yeah. steve: it was anime two two D animation hand drawn. Stephen: Guess you had to take pictures each frame. Hmm. steve: Yeah. It was cool learning about the process and everything. That was a really cool class. Yeah. Stephen: It sounds cool. the I'm sure the basic framework hasn't changed in however steve: No. Stephen: many years. You you have your thing, you move it. I think we've just gotten a lot better at just like setting the camera up and kinda making it easy for you, but steve: Right. And as Nanny likes to say, I invented Siggy, the cigarette mascot, way before anybody else did. It was a cigarette and he had this big long nose and he just had a body and he looked called him Siggy. I invented him in eighth eighth grade, bro. Eighth grade. Stephen: Damn, so where's where's your Philip Morris check for millions of dollars? Coop: Steven, that Lego video, was that a stop motion man you did? Or is that something different? Stephen: What Lego video? Coop: The one with that Boba Fett mech? Stephen: the one I tried to do of building and Yeah, that Coop: Yeah, yeah, yeah. steve: Ha ha ha ha! Stephen: was attempted stop motion and it like damn, this shit takes a lot of time and I never finished steve: Yeah. Stephen: it. Coop: No, I think the final result was decent looking. well it we didn't build the whole thing, Stephen: So the thing is Coop: but Stephen: the thing is I was doing the Legos, but if it's not on a like a steady Lego base, it moves a lot. Coop: Mmm okay. steve: Yeah. Stephen: So it every time my main s w subject I guess was was moving. So I'd place a brick but the main like the main body or whatever the thing would have moved like, you know, a couple not even inches, but like it's little millimeters off 'cause I touched it. Yeah, Coop: Noticable, yeah. Stephen: and if it's not like glued steve: so you were you were knocking him around too much, yeah. Stephen: Right, exactly. And like yeah, you y the average person's watching at full speed not gonna tell. But I'm like, yeah, well I don't like that.

steve: Remember I sent you when I got all the transformers, all the constructic cons, I made that quick stop motion, I sent it to you. There's three or four bots in it. Hello. No, you. You don't remember? No, I sent it to you. Stephen: He said, I don't know what you're talking about, bro. me? I think you said Cooper. steve: I can find it in my Google photos if I look hard enough. Stephen: When did you send me that? Damn I was clowning on I was clowning on Cooper and then it's steve: god. Probably the Coop: No, but I remember after you had that, Steven, I took it to the editing room and I when you're building in a Lego video game and it does that titi tee tee noise? Stephen: Uh-huh. Coop: I I put that noise over and then once you finish it i i it has that flat out noise. Yeah, that's cool. I put that noise over it like you're building. steve: Hold on, I'll figure out what day it is. Here it is, right here. Here's one. Let me see what day it is. probably March thirteenth, around March thirteenth. Stephen: Alright, let me consult my March thirteenth book and I'll get back to you on that. steve: There's a this is the picture it was just a picture of the one truck driving in front of the other five trucks. My hands in it and everything. I'm like, God. Stephen: You didn't even get it at your hand, bro. I the I think one community really keeping stop motion alive, I mean besides people making movies, is action figure people. I see some c I see steve: Every time I get a new figure I feel like making a movie, dude. I'm like Stephen: some crazy action figure fights on YouTube. Yeah, on TikTok, yeah. steve: Yeah. On TikTok. Or YouTube or TikTok, yeah. Stephen: I've seen Goku doing all kinds of stuff to all these different action figures. steve: I saw Captain America and Batman running a f running a fade on Batman the one time. Stephen: Yeah. steve: Yeah. Stephen: and they do the little they they add little effects on and these guys are damn good. And I'm like, steve: yeah, dude, they're awesome. Yeah. Stephen: I knew it took you a month to do this little video. steve: Ha ha ha Stephen: It's so good. and I think if I had just unlimited time really didn't need to work I could. Yeah, if or I was steve: If you locked in for a whole weekend, you could make one no problem. Stephen: thinking I'm such a perfectionist about things, I think steve: Right. Stephen: I would be good at stop motion as a career. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: Because you can't deliver something that's not perfect. If if it's not, you're gonna see it. steve: That's like me, my O C D. My O C D I would have him I wouldn't nail down the flawlessness. My mine would be smooth. Stephen: Mm-hmm. That's what I mean, I think I th I think I'd be g good at it, but steve: Yeah, I think I'd be pretty good at it, yeah. Stephen: but I said, it's not my job. I didn't go to school for it, so it's not it's kinda hard when you have other obligations to say, Hey, steve: Right. Stephen: I'm gonna spend six hours in my

basement tonight to make this Transformer run across the table. Okay, bye. Talk to you later. steve: Just transformer run across the table. Stephen: But I mean that's like that's what it is. There's this steve: Yeah. Stephen: Especially with not without professional equipment like just my my iPhone and a remote control. steve: Yeah, my iPhone. Stephen: Yeah. Have fun. But steve: I need Sydney's got a a nice iPhone holder. If I got a hold of that's like a tripod thing. If I got a hold of that, I could I could do some really good stuff. Stephen: You can make your little movies. So let's let's steve: I could I could go to town. Stephen: let's talk about let's talk about the the numbers of it all. normal movie 24 frames per second hundred and ten thousand frames total So that means probably double or triple that were shot. There's n there's no way you use the the the first take every time. Yeah, there's no way. Or steve: yeah, the basic minimum, yeah, right. Right. Stephen: or even more. I I I I would think on some levels in numbers games, let's just do it, let's just shoot it and then, cut it down. But how much do you wanna film? how much time are you wasting? Like you the the whoever the like production manager like in charge of all the logistics, they they should win an award because it's not yeah. You're making a movie so you you have to deliver on some kind of timescale. We're not gonna give you 10 years to just goof around and and do the movie, at your pace. steve: Right. Stephen: we we you have some kind of budget that you're working within. So 227 puppets, 20 sound stages or sets, whatever. Says this is a good week, and I've heard less, a good week of work produced about one minute of finished film. So that's Coop: Mm. Stephen: a good week. So let's say even average forty to fifty seconds. It's an hour and twenty-minute movie, roundabout. steve: So alright, so break that down, they're to work in seven days a week. So it's like it's about they would get about eight seconds of film per day. That is sad. That is. That's like Stephen: That's so sad. That's nothing. And you it it that makes directing a lot harder because y y those are like precious seconds. You want to make the the scene interesting. You can't steve: okay, think here, I'll give you eight seconds, okay? the the mayor walks up to Jack's house, rings the doorbell, his head spins around, he falls down. That's your eight seconds. Stephen: Yeah. steve: That's all you're getting shot today. Mayor walks up to the door, rings the doorbell, head spins around, he falls backwards. That's it. That's all you're shooting today. Stephen: Yeah, that's like steve: That's crazy. Stephen: I c I I just I can't even imagine. And that's a good that's a that's a success. You're steve: Yeah. Stephen: going home, I feel great about those eight seconds we just did. steve: Yeah. Stephen: And it's like I I'm thinking on like a live action movie, how much f time are you getting a day? You know what I mean? At

least a couple minutes, you know, you have Yeah, depending on the scene. Right. And you're filming steve: Mhm. At least you're shooting scenes, you're shooting whole scenes. Right. You're not shooting eight seconds, yeah. Stephen: and you're filming with multiple cameras, so if you get it from one angle bad, you're gonna have a couple other angles saving you. steve: Right. Stephen: but so yeah that's what I mean. Like there there's no shots of just like over jack shoulder talking to someone. Like it's steve: Nope. Stephen: all very purposeful. It's it all flows. There's no wasted time. There's no let's walk along this bridge, we do nothing. It's it's everything is leading into something else, which I really informs the whole movie. and and I think it makes it easier on on the animators and everyone. It's not we have two minutes of the back of Jack's head. You know what I mean? Like i like you would like a normal movie. It's he's always doing something so you you can see these puppets and things. 400 Jack heads for all his emotions. so steve: I know I wanted they had I don't know how many years ago I saw it. I saw a couple different ones on eBay. They had a thing, I don't know if I think it was twenty twenty different jackheads that you could buy in a whole thing. They would ship you a whole thing and it was five heads each row. It was five across, four down. Stephen: That's cool. steve: And it was absolutely amaz and I had to have it. It was so much money though. Huh. But I wanted it so bad. Stephen: I I think even that's hard as an animator too. Okay, I four hundred jackheads. I'm talking and saying this sentence. Me talking right now, what head shapes would I put on myself to make those noises? Like, steve: Right. Stephen: you gotta think about so I I would imagine there's a lot of live action reference of, you know, Danny Elfman or whoever in the booth talking that they b base this on, you know? steve: Well, it's weird 'cause when you talk like they know when you say Jack, they know what your mouth looks like to say Jack. And that's those are the heads they need. They need the the quarter open mouth and then the three quarter what mean? Goes Stephen: Yeah. steve: from the quarter to the three quarter and, with the little lip on the side and all that stuff. it's not just angry Jack, sad Jack, whatever. It's all the ones that make the mouth open and, you know, and talk. Right. Stephen: No. Yeah, for every for every eight basic emotions you probably have, there's fifty heads for each of those. steve: It's like when you're hand drawing animation and you're hand drawing a guy saying Jack. You gotta know what your mouth looks like when you say the word Jack. Or else it's gonna look goofy w during the film. It's gonna say, Jack, but you say, No, he looked like he said green to me. what's he saying, Stephen: And he's also a skelet Yeah. He's also supposed to be a skeleton so his mouth isn't being pulled around by muscle as much as like you or I would.

Right. So Yeah, the steve: Right, and he doesn't have lips, you know what I mean? Just his mouth is moving, yeah. Stephen: the more you think about this stuff, it's like this steve: Yeah, it's weird. Stephen: is a like this is a monumental task of of animation. steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: here's another sad Disney fact. Disney executives pushed for Jack to have eyeballs instead of empty sockets, arguing audiences couldn't connect with him otherwise. Sellick and Burton refused, and thank God they did because Jack with eyeballs is cursed. I can't Right, exactly. The guy's a full skeleton, but he needs eyes. Like what it what steve: yeah, could you imagine him with eyeballs? Well did you ever see a skull with eyeballs? it's pretty creepy, yeah. Yeah, he needs eyes. Whoa Stephen: like that's like an executive making a movie. Mm-hmm. steve: Right, well that's a big Disney guy going, every other movie you got Bambi with his soful eyes and his doeful eyes and you look into the the the eyes of the window to the soul, you know. So how can you make a character with no eyeballs, you know? Stephen: I know I I I think that also speaks to their skill too of the main character doesn't have the thing that, you're supposed to be able to connect with, but people love him. People love Jack Skellington. also says here he was originally dressed in all black and the pinstripes were added afterwards because he kept disappearing into the background when they were shooting him. It's a f steve: Ha ha ha ha That's cool. He's like, where's Jack? Stephen: Fun little fact. And again, steve: Yeah, w where'd he go? Stephen: that's kinda worked out perfectly because that's like his iconic look is the Jack pinstripes. steve: Right. Stephen: last last little thing here on filmmaking. Boogie Boogie was the hardest character to build. I can I kinda see that. And the few shots where his skin rips open and the bugs pour out took about four months of animation. Yeah, so there's your new job. Hey you're gonna rip Woogie Boogie apart and it's gonna be bugs. Okay, bye. Yeah. Think of what you can do in four months. You know what I mean? steve: Four months my god Yeah my god 'cause he did have a lot of little buggies falling out of him, man. Stephen: Craziness. Mm-hmm. bh b and then it's just a bunch of little hold on. I'll I'll I'll give you one one last thing. One last last thing. Did you steve: What do you got? Stephen: know there's hidden Mickey in this movie? I did not know this. So steve: If you tell me where it is, it might jog my memory. Coop: just Stephen: it says there's a hidden Mickey, a menacing sharp tooth stuffed animal in Jack's Gift Attack, plus a kid in Mickey print pajamas whose brother is wearing Donald Duck pajamas. I did not know either of those. steve: No, I didn't know that then. Okay. Right. Stephen: What do I know, bro? steve: Good stuff, good stuff. Stephen: I'll and I'll save the last two Triv bits for the last part. but let's talk more about Jack and the Pumpkin King and the Sandy Claws. The I've seen it tw twice in the last week now. only like half of it though. We didn't finish the whole thing. But it's a really basic movie. It's very short. N really not much happens. It's Jack, Christmas, Sandy Claus, let's get him, blah blah blah, shoot down, kill him with a tank, whatever. Like steve: Mm. Stephen: you run through it pretty quickly. And it's steve: Yeah, it's a quick movie. Stephen: it's very little like I w I always thought there was so much more Sally and Finkelstein stuff. There's really not. steve: The reason why is you probably watched it on regular TV and they take it and they put the commercials in and they turn it into a two and a half hour movie. Right. Right. You're like, wow, that's a quick movie, yeah. Mm-hmm. Stephen: For sure. Right. That that that's exactly it. But when you watch it in f real time, full speed, you're like, these c that they're not throwaway characters and they have, you know, their little scenes, but but like you said, I I think they they turn the the one scene with them when he's sewing her arm back into like a twenty minute thing and it's like, yeah, when you do this you're stretching things out to an insane proportion. steve: Right. Stephen: I I wonder how many movies you or I have watched only on TV and you have you have a idea about And then you go if you go back and watch after the fact without that, you're like, this movie either is way better than I thought or steve: Yeah. Stephen: or whatever. Mm-hmm. steve: Yeah, it's weird 'cause usually most movies I've seen on TV I've already seen like either on DVD or whatever, so it it'd almost be like no movie I I could say I've done that with. Unless it's a movie I didn't like and I just happened to see it on TV and never rewatched it. You know what I mean? Stephen: Yeah. wow, you're cool I guess. You're t you're the TV master, yeah. Yeah. steve: Okay, I'll give you one. Probably Beastmaster when I grew up in the eighties. I've only seen that on T V. It seemed like it was three hours. Stephen: What the he what is that? I don't even know what that is. Coop: it's a kid who can like steve: no, no, it was of it was a guy. It was a guy. Stephen: It's a guy. It's not a kid. Coop: Yeah. steve: He had a Black Panther. And it was like one of those sword and sorcery movies, you know, like Conan or something. It wasn't a bad movie, Stephen: You're selling me? You're sell- you're really selling me actually. Guy with a panther. steve: but I've never seen it like on DVD or anything like that. I know I haven't. It could it could be. If I sat down and watched it on Stephen: Okay, so that means it's either way worse than you thought or it's steve: D V D or t whatever today on streaming, I'd probably be like, wow, what what what the hell was I but I was a kid back then, so who knows. There's Stephen: kinda sounds pretty cool, but steve: a famous part that grosses people out. there are these bat creatures and these one bat creature like

eats this guy and it's pretty disgusting. Yeah, beastmaster. Stephen: I'm still sold on it. I I I might have to check out Beastmaster. How cool how cool were the times before now when you could just name a movie anything you wanted. steve: yeah. Stephen: that that's a that's a thing. As we make more I think that's a reason why everything is a prequel, sequel, or remake. A lot of stuff has been done. Not everything, obviously, but steve: Mm-hmm. Stephen: a lot of good names have been taken by franchises or are like derivative of something else. So now you're like you're coming up with a ri if if you're a writer in Hollywood, I don't wanna get too far off here, but if you're you're trying to come up with an original idea, your brain is so so like infused with every movie and TV show you've ever seen, something you think is original is on some level you just remembering something else. Mm-hmm. steve: Right. you gotta go smoke something or something or have a fever dream. You know what I mean? get get pneumonia and have a fever dream, and then that's your movie. Because other than that, you're not coming up with a original idea. Stephen: Yeah. No. That's like that's a lot of it's a big thing in music now for artists to go after other artists like, you you took this chord progression from my song. And it's like with how many years we are have of music, so much stuff is sampled from other stuff. It's steve: you don't even know. Stephen: it's bound to happen. Someone someone listening to their favorite album and they're just going and write their song and in it's in the back of their mind somewhere and then they're like, Ooh, ooh, dun dun dun dun dun dun they're like, that's original and it's smoke on the water. it it's not steve: Right. Dude, it's like these TikTok videos. They play like six-second clip of a song, they slow it down 400 times, and it sounds nothing like the original song it came from. Nothing like it. Like I only downloaded this one song on my playlist because it was the hot TikTok song at the time. Stephen: I like a cover, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. steve: And it doesn't sound like it doesn't sound anything like the videos. Nothing. It was like every Anakin Skywalker video that came out two years ago had this this sound in it, and the song sounds nothing like it. Nothing like it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stephen: That's awesome. I w while we're here, I I I think I sent it to you on TikTok about the Halo sounds. All the all the elites are just Sergeant Johnson pitched down and some of are reversed. And it's like it it's super it's like how first who figured that steve: Backwards, yeah. Work work. Stephen: out? And like, let me play with these sounds. steve: Right. Stephen: and and back up, pitch But something so iconic is just stupid, you know, sound editor playing with this playing with these toys. I I I think of that too, like the a lot of the behind the sample videos of like where did this come from? There's one Lincoln Park song,

Faint, and it's like you know that song you for in the beginning, it's like the shrill, like violin kind of sounding thing. It's from a James Bond movie. There's like this scene transition where they go to this other scene and they play that noise, but it's like reversed, stretched out, and it's like, how are you listening to that? And you're like, that would sound cool in my song. Right. steve: Right. If I reversed it and stretched it, yeah. Stephen: But it's like, you just like a S these samplers are just different level. Or they go to steve: They are, dude. Stephen: there there's a used to be a series on YouTube, I don't know they do it anymore, but it was like some record shop I think or something, and they would just have people pick pick records from like a random crate, play through and make find something and turn it like flip it into a sample or something. And it's just like, these like we're saying how impressive all this stuff is, but like if that's your discipline, like, you know. a sound editor or like animator in this case, like that's your thing. Like we I like I always think about that, like we have jobs, right? We're good at our jobs, our discipline. And and you see something like that and you're like, I could never do that. But if your job is animator for a movie, you're getting paid to be very good at that thing. steve: No. Right. Stephen: You know? But on as an outsider, you're like, that's very impressive. And it is, because, you weren't trained that way and this and that. I I have one. Maybe two. Two, two, two last little facts. One's about box office, which is not as impressive as I thought, and surely has made more in merch than this number since then. So steve: yeah, God yeah. Stephen: First original run, 50 million domestic. Not not bad. But really today it would be flop. That that's a flop number. steve: that a fifty million, yeah, that's a full that's for sure a flop number. Stephen: re reissues and being put in theaters since then has made it go past 100 million worldwide, not domestic. Worldwide, still that's flop numbers. on an 18 million budget. I will say, do not even look this up. I will I will believe this no matter what, and I think you will too. They have sold probably two to three times that in merchandise since then. Easily. Low end. Low end. I was gonna say five. That seems kind of high, but steve: easy, easy. yeah. Yeah, low it, yeah. Stephen: I'll say not even like Disney directly, but like licensing out to other companies. steve: You figure for how many years? Because and it's always on the shelf. It's not like they only put it out at Halloween. You Stephen: I think they made more than that. For how long it's been out, yeah. Yep. No. So steve: always you could go to any Disney park and just always find something on the shelf that's Jack Skellington or Sally or somebody. Always. Year-round pins, always. Yeah. easy, yeah. Stephen: Yep. Yep. I I I I think I guess I I'll say easy five hundred million since then in in merch, but I'm just saying low end they they tripled there in in merch, steve: And I know Disney it wasn't like when when it finally started getting big with with the DVD crowd and everything, I know it was some years later that Disney approached Burton about a sequel and he flat out said, no way. no, you're not getting yeah, you're not getting a sequel out of me. Yeah, Stephen: That's probably the best thing they ever could have did for that movie. steve: he does not want to make a sequel. No. Stephen: I I I think that's that's what saves a lot of these classic movies. Like, there's only one of them. And and no, I really can't. Even even if it managed to be decent, I think it's taking away from the original. And it would have you you would have not remembered it. steve: Could you imagine how trashy it would be? it would be a n it they would call it the nightmare after the nightmare because it would just suck. Right. Right. It would suck all the life out of the original, yeah. Mm-hmm. Cash Stephen: I think that's a l a lot of those Disney animated sequels they made, like Little Mermaid 2, Little Mermaid 3, Mulan 2, 3, like the directed DVD ones. steve: grabs, yeah. Stephen: They were all cash grabs, and now they're forever associated with those. Well, yeah, right, right. They weren't it it was like B Team, C Team doing I will say the Aladdin ones aren't terrible. I did like the Aladdin ones. But steve: Yep, and the animation sucks, by the way. Return of Jafar. Stephen: Return of Jafar and then the genie one. But it's not Aladdin. Like it's it it c can't even stand in Aladdin's shadow. It's just some bargain bin bullshit you grab the y like the movies that people make, like the mock movies, like the transmorphers, like those kind of movies, that's what the Disney sequels seem to be like. steve: Right, yeah. Right. God. Stephen: Like, you're in the store, you're gonna grab Aladdin steve: Yeah. Stephen: off the shelf and you get home it's Aladdin two. steve: Right. Stephen: Be like, well, I already bought it, so we're here. steve: shit, transmorphers. Stephen: Something like that. But then, last little fact I have, it was the first animated film ever nominated for best visual effects. You would think, it probably had a good chance of winning. No, it lost to Jurassic Park. But if it was to lose to anything, it's gonna lose to Jurassic Park. steve: Right. Mm mm mm. Stephen: So steve: And it never won an Oscar or nothing, did it? Okay. Stephen: It says that's the only this is the only award that's mentioned in the facts. So I would think that's the only thing and and I think like animated movie I don't even think best animated movie was a category at that time. I could be wrong, but I believe that was a a a much newer category. so that's really the only one. It could get like some of the technicals like sound or whatever, but again, people don't respect animation now, much less steve: Probably not. Yeah, probably not. Right. Mm-hmm. yeah,

back tw thirty years ago. Yeah. what do you your little puppet movie? Whoa, what? Yeah. Look at you. Look at you. Stephen: Over twenty years ago, thirty years ago, yeah. Yeah. I I was gonna end on that, but I I didn't see this last little this little well, this is a good one, okay? At the steve: What do you got? Stephen: at the beginning I asked, is this a Halloween movie or Christmas movie? Selec, the director, said it is a Halloween movie. Danny Elfman, not knowing what movie he was in, said, It's obviously about Christmas, but for me it's a Halloween movie. I th I I I I think the his words might be getting misconstrued because I said, it has something to do with Christmas, obviously, in like that's clear, steve: Obviously, about Christmas. Right. Well Stephen: no one's debating that, but it's a Halloween movie. steve: I see what he's saying because it's it's it's Halloween people discovering another holiday called Christmas. Right, right. Right, exactly. It's like a perfect, almost a perfect 50-50. You know what mean? Right. Stephen: Mm-hmm. Right, the driving force of the movie is Christmas. So you can't say it has nothing to do with Christmas. But for me. I I I'd say it's a good in between. I think a Aline it it it will always be a Halloween thing for me just because of the I think the tone and the steve: I give it sixty forty, sixty Halloween, forty Christmas. No, no. Right. Right. Stephen: I c I could maybe be said but but even that being said, I'm not watching it on Christmas. So it gets it gets the Christmas lean, but it's only being shown at Halloween. But the last thing I wanna say, like, Christmas movie to me is not about the setting. A movie could be set like Iron Man Three is set at Christmas. Iron Man Three ain't no Christmas movie. steve: Right, doesn't make it a Christmas movie, right. Well that's hard no not hard life. Coop: Hard. steve: Die Hard, yeah, everybody it's a Christmas movie. No, it's not a Christmas movie. Just because it's at on Christmas Eve does not make it a Christmas movie. Right. Is Silent Night, Stephen: Die Hard. People swear up and down it's a Christmas movie, yeah. I think a Christmas movie is about Yeah. Christmas movies about the soul of the movie. what's the message? What's the either steve: Deadly Night a Christmas movie just because it's on Christmas Eve? Stephen: I'll say no. But right. but learning something about yourself, like Christmas Caroly or like being with your family and celebrating that, like, that's a Christmas movie. I steve: No. Guy runs around murdering people? No, not a Christmas movie. No. Right. Stephen: think it's kind of a cop out to say, this movie takes place on December twenty-fifth, so it's a Christmas movie. You know, like steve: That's lame. That's people in the comments. That's that's keyboard warriors, that's all that is. Yeah. Stephen: same same thing. what's his face? The pr the predators the the predator movie with with Yeah, with the kid with the super predator, the terrible one, takes place on Halloween. Is that a Halloween movie? Right, exactly. Because in the beginning, yeah. steve: I didn't even notice, really? I didn't even Coop: Yeah, he's trick or treating bro, he's got mask on. Yeah. Stephen: Yeah. of course she didn't, 'cause it's it's it's ho I think Halloween has a much lower bar to clear on is it a Halloween movie? But obviously not all of because that's not that's not a Halloween movie. But yeah. steve: I didn't even notice, bro. Is he? Alright. He's got the hick glove on. right. Yeah, come on, dude. Yeah. It just because it Coop: He's tr he's trick or treating with the mask on. Yeah. Yeah. steve: takes place on the holiday does not make it a holiday there movie. Stephen: I think I I think Halloween movies are more about the the costumes and the content. the Halloween franchise, if it was not called Halloween or took place on Halloween, would still be a Halloween movie because it's masked person kill like That's what if it wasn't on Halloween. Friday the thirteenth, is that a Halloween movie? No? steve: Well, it's always on Halloween too, bro. It's always Halloween. No. It's a Friday the thirteenth movie. Well Stephen: Well that's a random date, so not really. But I'm saying people dress up as the character for Halloween. It's it's in the Halloween like canon of movies. steve: do you watch it at Halloween? I watch Friday the 13th whenever I want to. I don't really watch it. Probably, probably. It's not a it's definitely not a Halloween movie, though. Right. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Stephen: I'd say the scream is the same thing. Because people dress up as the character for Halloween. But you don't only have to watch them on Halloween. Horror movies are like I said, they're more for the I'm taking the costume and the character for Halloween, but the movie is not a Halloween thing. Halloween is really the only one that fills both is both boxes. Takes place on Halloween, Halloween Guy. But I don't wanna t we're not talking about that. We're talking about Nightmare Before Christmas. And we did. And it's great and it's awesome and you steve: Right. And we did. Stephen: should watch it. And this podcast has been just about the length of the movie. So good good job, boys. If you start Nightmare Before Christmas, when you start this podcast, you'll pretty much be finished when it's done. steve: Good sweet Jesus. my God. Stephen: And I think that's all I have to say about that. Next week we'll have Glengarry Glenn Ross. steve: Or if all of us can't watch Glengark, we're gonna do the Invisible Man. The tightest movie in the universe. The whole movie is sixty one minutes long. There's not one wasted frame in that movie. Cooper watched 40 minutes. He's almost watched the whole thing. It's a Halloween movie. Yes. Stephen: I'm dad. I hijacked the movie. Hmm. Here's what I'll say. I will entertain your little Invisible Man because, and just because it is still Halloween and we're we're continuing the Halloween trend. We did Batman, we did Nightmare Before Christmas, and we'll do Invisible Man. Because I've never seen it, so it'll be a good steve: And next week we do the invisible man. Alright, good. You're gonna watch it then. Stephen: first time. Coop: When it starts, buddy, is he visible or no? Does it jump in right to him being steve: When he starts off you see him, he's completely closed, but he's basically invisible. But he has clothes on. You don't know he's invisible. No, you never the only Stephen: It's already post vost Viz. Coop: So there's not one the opening scene he's not like a visible dude trying to toy with himself. No. steve: time you see him visible is when he dies at the end. That's it. did I just ruin a hundred year old movie for you? my god. Stephen: my gosh. I think Coop: Okay. fuck. Now everyone. Stephen: I think you're good on the the spoilers for that one. Yeah, you're good. So that sounds like a plan. We will be here next week for the invisible man. steve: okay. It's only a hundred years old, no problem. Okay. Stephen: original movie, I have never seen it. It better be better be a tight little movie. I'm yeah, I'm taking your word for it. There better be not one not one wasted line of dialogue in there. steve: Dude, it's it's tight. Sixty sixty-one minutes. Not one wasted frame, not one wasted ounce of dialogue. You won't believe Stephen: Alright, I'll I'll believe it when I see it, so steve: how quick this movie flies. You're like, it's done already? Like, that's how fast it Stephen: Yeah. steve: is. You're like, my god, it's done? Yeah. Okay. Stephen: Gone gone gone are those days of movies. Yeah. Really? steve: And it's so weird, it doesn't feel like it moves fast though. No, I swear to God. You look up, you say that was an hour? boom, yeah. yes, you will. All right. Yeah, yeah. Stephen: Guess I'll just have to see. Thank you boys for joining me on this almost Halloween night. Talking about movies. And we'll catch you in the next one. steve: Later. Coop: Later fellas. Stephen: Bye.