Jakson Run Toward the Fire: How Gautam Shirhattikar leads teams through constant change täydellinen litterointi

am very excited. 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:24.719 I am ready to ask you some questions. 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:37.599 And before we do that, Gatam, I want to thank you for taking some time out of your day to joining us uh on the Activating Greatness podcast and maybe give you a chance to further introduce yourself to those who are not familiar with you yet. 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.240 Yeah, first of all, Alec, what a wonderful forum to share ideas about leadership. 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:52.240 I'm very grateful for the time here today and to be able to speak on a subject that I'm really passionate about. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.280 Um yeah, a little bit about me. 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:58.639 Um I'm originally a penniless immigrant from India. 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:21.520 I came with uh two suitcases in my hand and the last 800 bucks in my pocket from my parents' life savings, and have gotten pretty much everything from uh this country, and and over the last 30 years, have been able to build a wonderful life and and have had the chance to really lead multiple companies. 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:28.879 In fact, Synergy Health Partners is the fourth business that I've grown, or actually started from scratch. 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:38.400 And it's just one of those things where you do things again and again and you start to see patterns, and and this is an area I'm really passionate about. 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:47.919 I want the next generation of leaders to really learn from some of the experiences that I've had, all the places I've stubbed my toe on, right? 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:54.400 And and and really take some uh learnings away that will help accelerate their career journey. 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.120 So I couldn't be more delighted to be here today, Alec. 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:01.439 I'm so excited to have you here. 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:08.639 And it is that that passion that I was so enamored with right out of the gate. 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:20.319 And in our our first conversation, we talked about your role as a leader and we talked about this fearlessness of failure and the conviction that you have. 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:25.360 But I want to start with this concept of a VUCA, right? 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:40.879 Which I know started with the Navy SEALs, where we talk about volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity, but I've never heard it up until our initial conversation really used in the corporate world in the same way. 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.519 And I love how you started to talk about it. 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:50.560 You said the real battle in corporate is that VUCA, not against the people inside of our organization. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.079 And so, two-part question right out of the gate. 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.720 What led you to start believing that? 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:09.199 And then how do you get the rest of your teams, the people on your leadership team, on your executive team, the leaders inside your organization, how do you get them buying in and disciplined to that same call out? 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:11.680 Absolutely. 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:24.079 Um, so the first of all, the fundamental principle here, Alec, is that leaders have to lead very differently in environments where things are constantly changing. 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:46.000 And if you look at all the things that are going on in the world geopolitically, you look at AI coming in and disrupting the workplace, you look at all the challenges and opportunities that leaders face today, and you quickly realize that there needs to be a blueprint for people to lead in a time of change, right? 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.879 And not just lead in a time of change, but actually bring people along for that change, right? 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:57.839 And so I feel like uh the VUCA philosophy really helps a lot with that, and I'll go into it in some detail. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:03.680 But the place where it really personally hit home for me was about 11 years ago. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:22.240 I was in my first CEO job at Pharmaco Ventures, and literally within three months of joining the company, the insurance companies came in and basically completely changed it, changed and upended our reimbursement model. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.199 And a significant majority of our revenue just disappeared overnight, right? 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:38.560 And so just going through that period of volatility and steering the company and the leaders and everything through that helped me learn so much more. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:45.439 I felt like I learned 10x from that experience than I would have if the environment would have been stable and everything was just going well. 00:06:45.680 --> 00:07:03.439 And uh, over the next three companies at Bane Clinics of America, MyCare Medical, and now Synergy Health Partners, that ability to effectively deal with the VUCA stands for volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:10.240 And and how really to lead in that environment, that it was a very pivotal experience for me personally. 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:18.720 Uh, and coming out of it on the other side made me a changed leader and the way that I actually saw uh the world around me. 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:28.319 And so uh that has truly been a huge part of the success over the last three or four positions, yeah, in terms of the response to that to that VUCA, so to speak. 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:42.879 Well, I I I'm really glad you you talked about a moment where you realized I have to adjust and I have to lean in, if you will, to the VUCA in order to be successful. 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:47.040 But not everybody is cut from the same cloth, right? 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:54.160 You when you and I first met, we talked about you being a double eagle, the high D in the disc and birds. 00:07:54.399 --> 00:08:04.480 And I am a uh a high parrot eagle where I I love

ambiguity and I love change and I love living in the gray. 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:10.480 But a lot of leaders are not in that same bucket right out of the gate. 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:22.000 They might like the black and the white, they might like having the data to say yes or no, and with how much change there has been, it I mean, it it's a it's a chaotic amount of change. 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.360 How do you instill that discipline? 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:41.840 How do you teach VUCA as a as a trait, as a skill to where your point, you're not just leading, but you're you're leading where people are wanting and excited to follow and and learn and evolve on their own accord, too? 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.960 Yeah, yeah, no, Alec, that is an excellent question. 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:46.159 Very interesting, right? 00:08:46.320 --> 00:09:04.639 So, what you have to realize uh is a certain way of understanding what the situation is and how to respond to it goes a very long way in being able to deal with the volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:07.519 So let me do a thought experiment with you for a second, okay? 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:16.960 Imagine you're in the 1500s and uh at that time you were growing up, your parents told you the earth was flat, right? 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:20.480 And that's what your upbringing has been, that's what your experience has been. 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.039 And you always believe the earth was flat. 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:29.120 And then along comes Galileo and and Kepler, and they say, no, really, you know what? 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:37.759 The earth is is round or oval, and and it's not really flat, and and you don't fall off the edge of the earth if you go on a ship, right, on the ocean. 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:43.440 Uh, and uh that's why we have uh night and day and yeah, and all of these things. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.559 And and the question is, how would you react to that? 00:09:46.720 --> 00:10:11.039 Would you continue to stick with what you know and what your parents taught you growing up, or would you actually orient yourself to a different set of facts once presented to you and have the curiosity to really understand and observe what is happening and then be able to change your response to it? 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:18.320 Okay, if the earth is gonna be round, then I need to behave a different way and act a different way than if it was flat. 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:28.240 And and that curiosity and that ability to really be flexible is what when new information comes in, is super important. 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:42.240 So, luckily, uh, this is actually uh, I don't know if you know about uh Colonel John Boyd, yeah, who is perhaps one of the most brilliant minds in in the history of American aviation. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:58.240 Colonel Boyd came up with something known as the OODA loop, and what it stands for is uh observe, orient, decide, and then act. 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.919 Observe, orient, decide, and act. 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:11.679 So what happens is the immediate reaction that leaders have when change happens is there's a little bit of that panic, your amygdala's working overtime and all of that. 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:23.120 Yeah, so the Navy SEALs actually have you step back and say, they say they teach their leaders literally in SEAL training, the officers relax and take a look around. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:35.840 So can you imagine you're sitting in the middle of uh of a battlefield and and and bullets are flying, your team is all stressed, there's panic all over, and they're saying relax and take a look around? 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:36.240 Huh? 00:11:36.399 --> 00:12:01.600 Yeah, that is that is the uh that is like no, there are you know shooting us, but the the point is when you relax and you actually take a look around, you're actually observing what is happening and you're resetting your brain from what is like an emotional, reactive, amygdala-driven mode to a more relaxed state where you can actually observe what is going on, right? 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:06.080 Yeah, and by the way, in a corporate environment, you can bring a lot of data, right? 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:12.399 Data is a good thing, and sometimes the data is incomplete as a leader, you don't have the chance to actually get it full. 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:20.720 But whatever you can gather off the situation and what it demands from you as a leader, that observe is very important, yeah. 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.960 But then the second part, the orient, is is even more important. 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:27.360 So, right, so what are you actually gonna do? 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:32.799 Now, if you're gonna say, Okay, I got all this information, but the earth is still flat, I'm I'm gonna ignore all this, right? 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:37.279 The situation is this, but I'm still gonna just do what I wanted to do. 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:43.759 I'm not really gonna observe anything from the situation, then you won't have such a productive path, right? 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:44.960 Like in terms of what you're doing. 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:54.639 But if you orient yourself differently, then, and and then you say, Okay, based on like now that I know what the situation is, this is what we need to do. 00:12:54.720 --> 00:13:06.000 Here's our new objective, and now that sparks a certain decision, which may be a different decision before you got that information, and then you actually go act on it, right? 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:12.320 And the beauty of the OODL loop, and this is the really the the the crux of the thing, right? 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.879 In a in an environment that is fluid, is that it's a loop. 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:28.639 So once you observe something, you orient yourself differently as a leader, you're able to explain the change reality to people, bring them along, and then you decide

something and you act. 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.120 At that point, you take that action, and then you know what you do? 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:34.960 You go right back to observe. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.679 Did your action actually result in what was needed in this situation? 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.360 So let me give you an example, right? 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:50.399 Please, our uh marketing team at work at Synergy Health Partners routinely schedules our new patients into slots in the clinic, right? 00:13:50.879 --> 00:14:02.799 And the team basically saw that we needed to streamline how the new patients come in and they're spread out during the day and all of that. 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:06.960 Yeah, and we were able to observe that that needed to be done better. 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:14.320 We then went out and actually made some changes, and actually, those changes didn't work, the the the results went the wrong way, right? 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:20.480 Like we were basically getting less new patients, and so we stepped back and we said, Okay, what is actually happening here? 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:32.879 And what we realized is in a bit to actually uh get the schedules more organized, we were actually artificially limiting patients' ability to see us and come in right away, right? 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:40.159 Which the whole idea of healthcare and a huge way in which you win is patient access next to another healthcare practice. 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.360 If patients can get care right away, that's a wonderful thing. 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:57.679 So by understanding what was happening and taking us out of the situation and reorienting our thinking, we were able to come up with a solution, hybrid solution that gave patients the freedom to schedule during the day. 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:10.399 But then there was a second process where our call center team would go back and see where they could space out the day and create some time for the physician to basically keep up with the schedule, right? 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.360 And sometimes it might be a patient or two they reschedule. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:26.320 So the solution that we came up with, the that hybrid solution would not have been possible if we hadn't observed and seen what was happening, reoriented our thinking, right? 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:32.480 Our original idea of uh of uh making life easier for our providers wasn't bad, right? 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:36.799 But it needed to be reoriented, and then we decided it and then we act on it. 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:44.799 And literally within a week, boom, like right, we are even more successful, we have more new patients coming in, and our providers are happy. 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:50.720 But using this observe-orient, decide, and then act, yeah. 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:56.639 That method we uh what we teach people at Synergy Health is to really be responsive to that, right? 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.799 So that that's what I would recommend leaders to do in a fast-changing environment. 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:05.679 Yeah, I I this is why we wanted to have you on the podcast, Adam. 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.000 I've got already, we're only 20 minutes in. 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:15.440 I've got a page worth of notes uh that was was worth the price of admission for everybody to listen to this. 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:21.519 The price to listen to it is free, but it was totally worth it because this is this is just absolute gold. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.440 I love this observe, orient, decide act. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:33.679 And I think when we talk about managing through change, you're not always gonna have a hundred percent of the information. 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:38.399 You have to be able to observe and orient and maybe get 60% of it. 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.200 And I think that's this concept. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:46.240 You know, we said the theme of this episode is this run towards the fire. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.840 And a lot of times that fire is on the other side of act, right? 00:16:52.080 --> 00:17:00.159 And we observe, we orient, but that takes three, six, nine months, and then we aren't able to make a decision. 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:05.680 And so we live in this analysis paralysis without ever running towards the fire. 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:15.200 So um, I think that there should just be like a floating sign above your head at all times that says run towards the fire, and that's your theme. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:17.599 But where did that come from? 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:18.880 Is that upbringing? 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.440 Is that coming over with the last$800? 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.559 Is that the lessons and the learnings that you've had? 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:30.480 Talk a little bit about why you so fiercely believe in that concept. 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:32.799 Yeah, you know, absolutely. 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:41.920 I I think um it's a great way to um uh perhaps a theme of my life type of thing on running towards the fire. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:18:01.599 So, what happens is when you uh get on a plane and a one-way ticket uh to to the US and you don't know anybody and you have nothing, um, uh or like you're a CEO of a company and 80% of your revenue goes poof overnight, and you have to like uh you know deal with that volatility. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:09.279 What ends up happening is over time you actually become through experiences of that sort in your life, and I've had many of those, right? 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:19.519 You not only get comfortable that things can be volatile and can change, but you actually start to welcome that. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:32.720 And then as a leader, you actually start capitalizing on the change, and you're able to be more successful in an environment of fluidity than you are in an environment of stability. 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:46.319 So, because of all these incidents that have

happened throughout my life, and I could go on and on of all the places where there has been volatility and and the ability to observe, orient, decide, and act, uh, and and you'll build that muscle, right? 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:50.240 So, what the one thing I would tell leaders is continue doing more and more of that. 00:18:50.400 --> 00:19:00.640 And so now what I understand is that even in stable environments, if you're looking for continuous improvement and you have this orientation, right? 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:11.920 That curiosity, that desire to experiment, you are able to use the disruption to your advantage and that and and ultimately get very differential results. 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:24.720 Because what is happening, uh, this is what most people don't understand, is in every change there is also opportunity that is hidden within that change. 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:35.680 And so if you actually understand what is happening with the change, you can actually use that change to your advantage and then explain it to other people. 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.000 Uh, in fact, I'll give you a funny story. 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:46.960 Um, I was in one of our meetings recently at Synergy Health Partners, and I said, We talked about something that we are trying to problem solve. 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:53.359 And I after 45 minutes, I said, Oh, so we have no idea uh what is going on here, right? 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:55.039 And that's wonderful and exciting. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.480 Yeah, and everybody like one of my senior leaders start laughing, right? 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:05.119 Like he said, like only you would actually say something like this that we have no idea what to do, and this is fun and it's energizing. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:18.400 But by by repeatedly putting yourself in situations where you're comfortable with being uncomfortable, you learn how to operate and lead in in situations of VUCA. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:30.319 And and then you actually can do better in those situations than you would be in a stable environment where nothing changes, and therefore there is no opportunity to get a 10x improvement. 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.000 So I think that's really the crux of it in my in my mind. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:42.559 Well, and and and you hit on something that I think is I I love you just looking around the room and saying, so we have no idea what's going on here. 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:54.240 And you hit on it because one facet of of leaders, and I think it's a myth around leadership, is that you have to be in control at all times. 00:20:54.559 --> 00:21:04.240 And as an eagle and as an eagle parrot, we tend to default to I want to be in control of the room, I want to be in control of the outcome. 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.480 And yet you've talked about that leaders, we don't really have control. 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.720 We have an illusion of control. 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:18.319 And really, what makes a great leader is the pause between what happens to you and what you do with it, right? 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:28.799 And I think this scenario that you just walked through, there's no panic in your voice when you look around and say, Hey, well, we don't really know what to do yet, but we're gonna find out, right? 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.960 We're gonna we're going to do that. 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:43.920 In a world that is so indexed on the short term and on immediate results and boards and private equity, and what have you done for me lately? 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:51.519 You're kind of going against that to say, hey, listen, I can't control what happens in this exact second. 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:52.960 I can control how we respond. 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.960 Just kind of walk through how did you come around to that? 00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.759 It sounds like a lot of that's from these stories, but talk. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.400 Little bit more about that concept for us. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.400 Yeah, what wonderful Alec. 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.960 And by the way, you know that the need for control is very great in eagles, right? 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:10.000 Absolutely. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:16.880 That's what makes it, that's what makes it even more that ability to pair with the eagle. 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.039 Eagles not go with the flow. 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.960 Whatever happens, happens, right? 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:24.240 So that's why I'm so curious on this concept. 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.160 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:43.359 And and so um what what uh ends up happening is uh, and by the way, earlier in my life in in fluid environments, I definitely was had a high bias towards action and taking that action and sometimes leaping with without observing and orienting and all that, right? 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:57.200 But over time, um, what has really helped me is uh the daily practice of self-meditation, um, self-reflection and meditation. 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:03.839 And uh, as Mahatma Gandhi said, uh, you know, look, at the start of every day, I meditate for an hour. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:16.079 And if I have an especially busy day, I meditate for two hours because you have to you have to calm your mind down to the point where it's ready to observe and orient and decide and act, right? 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:24.400 Like so uh that daily practice of meditation and really being able to let the day, the previous day, settle. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.160 Uh, I do this at 4 a.m. 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:36.559 in the mornings, that's the time when my mind is clearest, and and I'm I'm feeling like I'm really uh before everybody wakes up, you know, uh getting my best thoughts of the day. 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:50.720 But the ability for leaders to let their thoughts settle and to understand what happened, what were the changes and all the moving parts the previous day, and then to be able

to reorient themselves um is important. 00:23:50.799 --> 00:24:13.440 And so over the years, uh like I think one of the biggest things I think for a leader is to self-reflect and self-reflect on your own uh strengths and opportunities, self-reflect on others and how you relate to them and how to make them follow, how to energize in them that amazing potential. 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:24.640 A lot of my best insights, I just find after a good night's sleep, my mind is clear as water, yeah, and I'm able to actually reflect on it and then take appropriate action. 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.400 So that just helps me slow myself down a little bit as an ego. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.559 I've still got the eagleness in me, right? 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.039 Like I gotta take some action here now. 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.400 Just that ability to okay, that's okay. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:45.599 You can take that action tomorrow, but let it just settle and and then see if you need to do exactly what you're going to or whether you need to reorient yourself. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:50.319 That uh maturity, I think it shows up in the gray hair a little bit later over the whole time. 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:51.920 There's some stories. 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:53.839 Yeah, there's there's some story. 00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:59.359 I love, I mean, I love the the daily practice of of self-meditation, self-relately reflection. 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:06.000 But I also think that what you're admitting to is you don't have to have the answer today, right? 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:10.720 Taking a beat and of doing that observation, but also taking care of myself, right? 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.039 Like leaders who can take care of themselves. 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:16.559 If you can't do that, then how do you show up for the rest of your team? 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:24.559 And I think it's a natural, it's a natural progression to the role of a of a leader and of a CEO. 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:39.920 And one of the things that you said, I actually posted about it on LinkedIn right after our conversation back in February or March, which is the biggest impact that I can have as a leader, as a CEO of a company is the rate at which my leaders grow. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:48.160 And if I am in the people development business and I develop my people, they can run the business, right? 00:25:48.319 --> 00:26:03.359 There are things that you still need, but just talk about talk about that, that investment, um, the long arc again, talking about short-term indexing on uh quarterly results, private equity, owners, all the different things. 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:10.640 Why is that so core and fundamental to you from an investment perspective and just from a I believe in this? 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:11.839 Absolutely. 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:12.799 No, I love it. 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:22.319 And and by the way, um, you know, just to um attach it to what we just said, before you can lead others and and help them grow, you have to lead yourself. 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:27.839 Yes, and so the self-reflection process is what helps you grow as a CEO, right? 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:38.240 And and and I always like to say to people, look, every single day, all I'm trying to do is walk into the office trying to earn my job. 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:53.359 And what I mean by that is you're you're taking the time, like you said, with the self-care and everything else, to really bring your best self as uh to work, and that then allows you to lead really well, right? 00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:09.039 Because leaders have long shadows, but to uh attach the whole idea of growing other people and the long arc of that and how to balance it with short-term results, once you have mastered the act of leading yourself, and by the way, it's a lifelong journey, right? 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:13.359 Uh, mastery is an ongoing process, not an endpoint. 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:20.720 You are then able to interest other people in the journey of working on themselves. 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:21.519 Yeah. 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:30.960 And when you're able to, and and one of the things I like to tell people is it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be uncomfortable. 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:36.160 You're not gonna like a lot of what you have to go through. 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:37.680 It's like going to the gym, right? 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.400 The first day your muscles are sore, the second day your muscles are sore. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.839 Self-reflection is not an easy process, but the rewards are unbelievable. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:57.759 So, what I interest people in right from the start is look, I'm invested in your success, and I won't abandon you on this leadership journey, no matter how tough it gets. 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:06.720 Then people are far more willing to work on the two or three really difficult things that are getting in the way of them being amazing leaders, right? 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.000 The good news, Alec, is it is possible to work on leadership growth at the same time that those leaders have to deliver results. 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:19.119 It's not like those two things are happening as I'll just work on growing this leader for three years. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.319 Let's not get any results for three years, and and and and then we'll go to it's not a sequential concept. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.680 In fact, very interestingly, it's a little bit like the OD loop. 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.359 The stronger the leader becomes, the leader uh the results improve more. 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:41.359 Then they build more confidence in the leader, and they and it's a compounding effect, a flywheel, if you will, uh, or a loop, and it just keeps building. 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:50.319 So when you strengthen and work on the leaders, you're working on the things behind the scenes that lead to amazing performance. 00:28:50.480 -->

00:29:01.759 And so uh I have a really funny story with one of my uh previous private equity firms and partners, where of course, as a CEO, you have to write down your own uh metrics, right? 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.279 And by which you'll be measured. 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:05.039 So I write down these seven things, right? 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:11.200 And first of it is build an amazing uh leadership, executive leadership team. 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.039 Number two is like culture, mission, core values, all process systems. 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:28.400 Yeah, number seven is deliver financial value for stakeholders, and and the and and the uh uh P partner looks at me and says, shouldn't number seven be number one, Gautam? 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.000 You don't understand. 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.519 I don't do the first six things, we don't do that, like you're never getting the seventh. 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:36.880 You're you get that, right? 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:54.960 That there the the the performance and the results are linked to the growth of the leaders, and and you can try to force the pace of the organization to grow, but if your leaders don't scale with the organization, the spaghetti is not gonna come out right and it's not gonna taste good, right? 00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:11.920 So, yes, the the the the long arc and what you're looking for in terms of your financial exit and and all these results is they really need to the pace at which the organization scales, and the organizations scale through the the pace at which their leaders grow. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.799 So he got it once I uh explained it to him, but that's basically the philosophy. 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:30.160 I because I've gone through uh myself the process of self-reflection and growth as a leader, I I find it's useful to interest other leaders in investing in that journey, and that's what leads to amazing people. 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:47.279 I've had people from a company ago, two companies ago, three companies ago, were chief operating officers, CEOs in other places, and it just such a sense of pride that you maybe had a small portion in in terms of helping them grow as leaders, and that led to them going on and doing such wonderful things. 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:51.039 So hopefully that process, uh that organic process makes sense to you. 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.960 No, it absolutely does. 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:58.799 And I'm I'm actually re-listening, it had been a little while since I had read or listened to measure what matters. 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:08.480 And I I they they talk about it in a similar way, where the revenue and the business numbers are an outcome of how we treat our people, the work that we do, right? 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:14.559 So, yes, it is a it is the giant number on the scoreboard, but it is the end result. 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:23.680 It can't be the first, if the only thing that we try to tackle is that outcome, then it's gonna be very difficult to retain our people, do all of these great things. 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.079 So it was just a it's a fantastic answer. 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.440 I've got one question left before we get into our rapid fire. 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:32.240 I knew you and I were gonna fill fill the time. 00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:37.279 I think you could do you could do this for hours on end, and I would listen for hours on end. 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.720 So I wanna I wanna make sure that I ask this question. 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:41.519 Sure. 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:49.920 There are five plus generations at work that will be involved over the next couple of years uh in the workforce. 00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:58.559 And there are a lot of executives, there are a lot of leaders who are pessimistic about the next generation of leaders. 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:02.240 And across a lot of industries, we see a really large gap. 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:10.160 And even forget the generation, but just that age gap at a lot of uh a lot of works uh workplaces that we work with. 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:22.880 We've got leaders that are 50, 55, 60, 65, and the next people up are actually in their 20s and early 30s, and there's this divide on are they are they going to be ready? 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.039 Do they care about things the same way? 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.079 And frankly, there's just negativity around it. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.960 You have the opposite, uh, opposite thought process. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.240 You were fired up about it. 00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:41.680 You were like, if I can get them the mission, the vision, the values, if I can get them to run towards the fire, I'm pumped up. 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.720 Why why are you pumped up about this? 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:58.559 And then what does that generation of leaders need from the current generation of leaders in order to take the torch, if you will, into the next phase of business life? 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.759 Yeah, yeah, no, I like that's a wonderful question. 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.640 And and yes, I'm incredibly bullish about this next generation of leaders. 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:20.079 So much so that I have it after having a lot of fun starting and and growing four companies now, I am now investing in four entrepreneurs myself. 00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:20.400 Yeah. 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:28.799 Started a philanthropic fund that actually allows those startups to grow and thrive and and build positive communities. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:39.200 And um, I do this as a board member at International House, and I gotta tell you, the level of talent that I see is just remarkable. 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:45.279 In fact, we had over 60 applications and only three spots for our entrepreneurship fellowship. 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:54.240 So the level of energy and the passion for people to do good in this world, have great impact, is so tremendous, Alec.

00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:03.519 So then the question becomes why are those people not energized to really reach their full potential? 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:08.079 So I've made my life scalling around that question. 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:17.599 And once you become curious about the question, then why am I, as a leader, not able to bring out the best in a particular person? 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:19.199 You're flipping it around, right? 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:25.679 Rather than saying, well, this person is not motivated, they're just clocking in, clocking out, they're not showing up. 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:33.920 That curiosity around, okay, they went to a great school, I hired them at some point because I thought they had potential. 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:39.119 Nobody comes to their first day at work saying, I'm just gonna do really bad today. 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:39.920 Yeah. 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.480 Or I'm just like, I'm just really going to be mediocre today. 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:45.360 Nobody does that. 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.639 Everybody wants to be excellent, right? 00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:50.400 And and have remarkable success. 00:34:50.480 --> 00:35:06.159 So then when you get that curiosity, and I come a little bit uh from yeah, as I we talked about the Navy SEAL so much, but there's a wonderful book called Extreme Ownership, uh, that a couple of Navy SEAL leaders uh who fought in Iraq uh talked about. 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:10.079 But they say, like, there's really no bad teams, only bad leaders. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:32.639 So what you understand is no matter what the situation is, if you haven't really energized people on your team to reach their full potential, having curiosity on the question of what can I own in the situation to really make people bring out the best in them helps a lot. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:44.159 And that that philosophy has helped me so tremendously because every time I've wanted to say, oh, you know what, that person could be doing more. 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.760 Why are they not doing this? 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.199 I realize I uh I'm I'm not as happy. 00:35:49.440 --> 00:36:02.480 The moment I switched to it to, oh, you know what, maybe if I do this, I can help them out and I focus it on the other person and being other centric and helping them uh get them energized, life changes. 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:11.599 In fact, there's a running joke in our family that when Sunita, my wife, finds that I'm a little grumpy on a Saturday morning, she's saying, Don't just sit there, go out and help others. 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:27.920 Yeah, because the whole idea of uh helping gives you the agency of action, and now you're actually making the the situation better and energizing the leader rather than being grumpy about why you're why they're not giving it their best. 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:42.960 And you know, I've just seen the light come on in so many leaders, Alec, that I truly do believe that there's a great leader sitting inside each person, and they just that great leader just needs to be activated, right? 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:53.920 So I'm borrowing the activating greatness uh theme of your podcast, but there's a there's a there's an ability for every leader to really reach their full potential. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:01.360 Yeah, and I somehow view my job as being bringing out that uh to the fore. 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.199 It was always inside them. 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.199 I'm that I'm bringing it out. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.920 It's a little bit like the Michelangelo David statue. 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:14.239 The statue was always there, he just needed to chip away all the pieces that didn't belong, and boom, like there's the statue, right? 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.079 That's that's basically what they talk about. 00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:23.280 So that's how I look at it, and and I yes, I have tremendous faith and excitement about the next generation of leaders, no doubt. 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:25.280 Well, I think two things on that one. 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:52.400 I I love just the reframing, and you talked about the extreme ownership, but putting the onus and the and the responsibility on leaders, not pointing the finger and saying that generation doesn't know how to work or that generation like that is on us as leaders to find out what makes them tick, to find out what is the nugget that is going to make them uh as passionate and excited and involved the way that we need them to be. 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:53.199 So I love that. 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.360 And then you talked about the light coming on. 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.239 The light came on for me for the last 40 minutes. 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.079 This has been absolutely fantastic, uh, Gothamite. 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.119 I can't thank you enough. 00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:04.800 I knew the episode would be great. 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:06.559 It was even better than I expected. 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:11.840 I think our audience is gonna learn a lot from it, but you're not you're not out of the woods yet. 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:25.920 You've got to go through our rapid fire, you've got to go through our rapid fire questions here, which is four questions, 30 seconds or less, and there is a scoring system. 00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.079 I make up the scoring system. 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.440 It is uh it's completely different every episode. 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:36.880 However, if you win, you get a token in the mail and you can showcase it proudly at the office. 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:44.800 You get bonus points if this answer has never been answered before, because we ask all of our guests the same questions. 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:48.639 Are you prepared to go through our four rapid fire questions? 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:49.840 Let's do it. 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:50.480 All right. 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.360 We're gonna start, we're

gonna start with uh with an easy one. 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:54.559 I've asked you this before. 00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:56.239 Question number one is the easiest. 00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:00.239 What's one leadership habit that you rely on every day? 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:14.000 And I would say that's absolutely the practice of self-reflection, which is an amazing way to really observe, orient, decide, and act uh every single day as a leader. 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:17.360 Listen, you are you're practicing what you're preaching. 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:24.079 I know you do this firsthand, and I like that you said it in your answers above, and then you repeat it down below. 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.960 So you get 10 points right out of the gate. 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:30.320 Now, every question from here on out, a little bit tougher. 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:39.199 Question number two What is the most underrated skill that a leader needs in order to be successful? 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:41.280 Humility. 00:39:42.239 --> 00:40:01.840 So, what do you also understand that in fast-changing environments you can't get too locked in into your ego and thinking that you have all the answers, and so the humility is what really helps you in VUCA type environments and and helps you be most effective as a leader. 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:10.719 I I'm gonna highlight the part of the humility that I love is that you don't have to have all the answers. 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:13.760 I think there's humility in general. 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:19.360 We talk about building people up and their confidence, and then how do you have humility as a leader? 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.519 And I think sometimes that word is it's it's nuanced. 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:30.800 Uh, it is in the VUCA territory of how gray that word can be taken and received, the intent versus the impact. 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:39.119 But I love the lens of you don't have to have all the answers, and you don't have to pretend that you have all of the answers either. 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:44.239 So you added that extra, which gives you 15, 15 points for that question. 00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.519 We're off to a great start through our first two. 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:58.000 Question number three is on the flip side, which is what is one thing that great leaders should stop doing? 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:00.639 Yeah, excellent. 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:10.719 I think most great leaders have had success and they have gotten success by having a bias towards action. 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:28.719 Um, so I think the um the just playing on the same theme, the the biggest things that great leaders need to do is to not rush into conclusions about the situation and what they need to be. 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:36.400 I think the curiosity is the single word I will use there, which which pairs very nicely with not having all the answers. 00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:40.400 Uh, because in that you there's an entire universe, right? 00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:51.119 We talked about the pause between the situation coming in and what your response to it is, and that pause is the whole the whole ball game. 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:59.199 Because in that pause is beautiful future courses of action if you only allow yourself the chance to have a pause as a great leader. 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:06.719 So the not rush into action is the number one thing I would say great leaders should be watching out for. 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:07.679 I love it. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:19.760 And I I I'd have to go back and check, but I don't think that in 57 episodes that answer has been given in terms of the the not rushing to conclusions. 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.519 So I I absolutely love that one. 00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:30.719 I also like the dichotomy of what it represents with all of our other uh you know conversation around action and making decisions. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:32.480 So I really appreciate that one. 00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:36.159 That means that you're at 40 points through three questions. 00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:38.079 You just gotta get this one right. 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.519 It's subjective and technically there's no right or wrong answer. 00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:44.800 So you're in a great position for question number four. 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:49.760 Adam, last one, what's the best leadership advice that you have ever received? 00:42:50.800 --> 00:43:03.920 Yeah, I remember uh one gentleman who was a six-time private equity CEO and I had the chance to learn from, he said, you know, the way you're going, Gautham. 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.719 The I already know that you're gonna be leading a company one day. 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:14.960 The question is, what kind of leader do you want to be? 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:26.400 And it actually took me an entire week to answer that question because and from that really sprung what I'll call my own authentic leadership style. 00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:44.960 And so what I encourage leaders to say is don't try to be like another person, you are yourself unique, but really know who you want to be as a leader, talk about it, vocalize it, and then test for whether people experience it. 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:53.519 And then that way you'll have a lot of integrity between who you think you want to be as a leader and what people actually how people experience you as a leader. 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.639 So that that would be my my take on the matter. 00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:05.920 Yeah, it's I love that your your best piece of advice was really a question that you had to be open to receiving and open to answering. 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:15.760 So it ties back in with the curiosity, but I think when you hear that question, you either know what type of leader you want to be or you need to go and find out. 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.239 And and so I I absolutely love that. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:28.400 That gives you the points that

you need to win the house cup, which means we're gonna send you a present in the mail as a token of our gratitude for you spending time with us before we get you out of here. 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:28.880 Got them. 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.800 We got to ask you positive gossip. 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:34.400 This is an ode to our friend Tony over at Pfizer Center One. 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.199 We ask everybody on the show who do we interview next? 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:38.880 Who should we talk to? 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:47.920 Who is a great leader that is making an impact in the work they do, the relationships that they have, that the activating greatness audience would be able to learn from. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:50.400 Yeah, absolutely. 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:57.199 I think um we talk so much about energizing people and leading in the case of change and uncertainty. 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:05.440 Uh, one of my good friends, Sabrina Isherwood, is the chief marketing officer at uh Bain Clinics of America. 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:14.239 We work together, and and she is the most empathetic and people-centric person that I know. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:42.320 And uh I don't know how many people with a marketing and sales background you've interviewed previously on the podcast, uh, but she would be a fantastic person because she really is a is a magician at being able to connect things uh and and people and how to really move people through taking care of what I will take, the softer elements of things and and and bring out their best potential. 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:47.199 So that's somebody that I would I would just say would be a great person to talk to if you have the chance to. 00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:48.400 Yes, absolutely. 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:53.519 I will be sending Sabrina this this video clip to to get her on the podcast. 00:45:53.679 --> 00:46:01.119 And I also I'm excited about the idea of just being able to talk leadership and sales and marketing, uh, because that's the stuff that I love. 00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:06.079 So I appreciate that that recommendation and also appreciate the last 50 minutes. 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:07.280 I knew we would have fun. 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.519 I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:12.639 I know our audience is going to enjoy listening to it. 00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:16.880 When you do listen to this episode, make sure that you connect with Gotham on LinkedIn. 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:20.960 Send him a note that the activating greatness audience is where you found him. 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:30.880 Tell him what you liked, tell him what you didn't like, tell him what you're gonna try to learn from, what you want to talk about, because that's the feedback loop that has made this podcast so successful. 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:35.679 And somehow we're 56, 57 episodes in here in 2026. 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:41.679 And the only reason we're able to do that is the incredible guests like you got them and the incredible audience that we have. 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:43.679 So thank you as always. 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:50.079 Continue to show up and to be a community of leaders who refuse to settle for good enough. 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:51.280 Got them one more time. 00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:52.000 Thank you. 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:57.039 And to the audience, we will see you on the next episode of Activating Greatness. 00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:58.960 Thank you so much for having me, Alec. 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:00.480 It was a wonderful time.