Jakson Lorena Neira - 'Building Climate Tech for the Ocean' täydellinen litterointi

let's think for a second about a coral reef that has been impacted by a hurricane or other type of disturbance. 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:22.399 What you are gonna see there is probably that seafloor and that space, that space is gonna be depleted, uh, and life is gonna be kind of like uh affected by it, right? 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:32.319 So what we do is we spread minerals or like think of it also as fertilizers on that seafloor to revive the life there. 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:46.319 Um, most of the marine ecosystems usually go on cycles of small derby that start growing on the seafloor and form very big structures, uh, right, like coral reefs are something that we can uh watch from from space, right? 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.879 So that's how big those ecosystems get. 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:54.480 Uh, and because of climate change, they're taking even slower to grow. 00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:02.480 So, what we do is we provide the shortcut that they need by means of deploying the structures that we deploy that we actually call blue sinkes, right? 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:10.800 So you can think of blue cinkies as apple-sized uh structures that we deploy on the seafloor, and that can be that can do two things, right? 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:24.879 So the first thing that it does is it removes carbon and it removes carbon by something that is very standard to the to the space right now, or at least the ocean-based uh carbon removal space, which is called ocean alkalinity enhancement, right? 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:41.839 That very in very simple terms is in a reaction in the ocean, so buffering some seawater, raising alkalinity, and that sequesters some CO2 that grabs uh CO2 that is in the atmosphere and in the water and transform it, transforms it in different species of carbon, right? 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:50.160 It can be bicarbonates, it can be carbonates, it it's simply the process of removing, taking that CO2 and transforming it into something else. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:07:22.319 Once it does that, because uh our apple size structures are are made of a material that can have that reaction as well or that effect in the ocean, the structures can be inherited by ecosystems, things like ecosystem fragmentation, which is for instance when you had kilometers, uh square kilometers of coral reef, but maybe it's fragmented at some sections, and so fish cannot travel the same way across the reef but are isolated to fragmented pieces of that ecosystem. 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:23.600 Oh wow, it's fantastic. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.759 So that means almost a coral bridge. 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:26.720 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:27.759 It's a coral bridge. 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:28.959 Wow, wow. 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:30.639 I mean, yeah, it's it's incredible. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:36.079 And Lorena, what first connected you to the ocean science and and climate tech? 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.439 I think I think for me it was definitely first just

sciences, right? 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:46.079 I've very uh I've always been very uh scientifically framed. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.800 I actually started in university as a chemical engineer mayor. 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.959 Um the oceans came later with different experiences. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:08.560 Uh so I think it's just for me, it's definitely an interest for science and science as a tool to build better opportunities for people, better quality of life, uh, better nature as well. 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:13.040 Um and I think the ocean was probably a layer that came afterwards. 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.959 I usually just like sail and also dive for fun. 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:22.399 So I think I just like it among the ecosystems, that's probably the the one that I enjoy the most. 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:23.680 Yeah, I hear you. 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:24.639 I hear you. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:29.360 Um can you can you share how bluesink came to be? 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.839 What was the insight or the idea that sparked it? 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.559 Because it is quite it's quite novel, it's quite unique. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.320 It was it was very serendipitous, I I would say. 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:43.039 Because um, so it came to be as a part of my master research. 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:49.679 I as a researcher, I had never thought about entrepreneurship as a as a career path, right? 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.759 Like I almost bumped into it. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:59.919 So I was researching about coral by erosion patterns and how to standardize that for the scientific community. 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.440 Uh I was doing that during the pandemic. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:11.279 So I remember deploying the first nodules of uh blue-seak material in the ocean right before the pandemic. 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:19.120 And then when the pandemic hit, that kind of uh kept me very separate from those deployment sites. 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.879 So I couldn't really check the material for something like a year or two years. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:42.399 Um and when we went back to the sites, we realized the material wasn't as good uh to at doing the thing that we were intending it to do, but it was really good at growing carbon removing species, which by then uh were carine algae bundles, right? 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:49.120 Like so those things uh usually trap organic carbon within those structures, uh rubber lip rocks as well. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:58.960 So I started thinking to myself, uh, you know, like probably blue car the blue carbon space uh carbon markets are a good alternative for this. 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:09.600 And by then I also remember thinking, well, probably what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna patent or publish this, hand it over to someone that is trained to build a business around it. 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.600 Um I think I've always been a very practical person. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:19.759 Uh so I

think by then I was also concerned in having a blended career, right? 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:24.639 Not just science to publish papers, uh but also probably something else. 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.759 I just I hadn't defined the tools quite well. 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:41.039 Um and then uh you know, the the deeper I got into the entrepreneurial space, I realized I could be that founder and probably I should be that founder. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:59.519 I'm a big advocate for other scientists to, I think especially for science-based ideas, you need a pretty fair understanding of what the science entails to build a reasonable and balanced vision for those tech for those technological approaches. 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:01.279 So that's how we started. 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:06.639 Uh, I can I can say very confidently so that it started more as a biodiversity approach. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.440 And then the carbon approach just grew, right? 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.360 So through the the OAE angle that we added to it. 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:46.639 Um so what we did was simply, and was part, one of our pivots that we can we can tell the story about, uh, was understanding that the material, the chemical composition at least, could be improved and optimized for carbon removal, but that we shouldn't stop spending the time, the effort, and the funding manufacturing the nodules, because that was going to bring at the end the big differentiator to that carbon removal technology, which was the structures that were capable of building those coral bridges, uh, as you were saying before. 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.440 Okay, well, well, I mean, it's yeah, it's funny. 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.159 I love the name as well, the branding, the blue zinkies. 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:53.679 I like what you've done there. 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:58.480 Um so how how did you land on the approach? 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:12.879 You know, so you know it's uh and what I love as well is because of the pandemic, it's stayed in the water for a long time, and that's you know, and and that kind of thing happening has potentially created this product that you're now the CEO of of a business. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.120 And I love I love that story, that the that the serendipity, you know. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.120 How how did you land on that approach? 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:20.559 How did you how did you come up with that? 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:44.320 Yeah, I think I think uh you know, whenever we always have the duality of talking to someone that is very carbon-oriented versus someone that that is very biodiversity oriented, and what we've done to land on the final approach is to try to marry those two uh understandings of what should should need to be optimized and what the solution should be about. 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:54.960 So, on one end, uh the reason why we manufacture apple size nodules, which are blue sync, is optimize for biodiversity, right? 00:12:55.120

--> 00:12:58.559 So we need them to be that size, that geometry. 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:09.440 So they um do all they kind of like uh have as a consequence all the dynamics that we need uh to target biodiverse species, right? 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:20.480 Not just generic algae or turf that would be attached to any type of structure you deploy into the water, but the the kind of target species that we're looking for to restore those seafers. 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:34.159 And then on the other end, as I was saying, uh just integrating very fairly the OAE angle, which requires certain uh minerals that we need to target, optimize, not just for marine safety, but also for reactivity. 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:44.240 Okay, so you're actually so that you so it's engineered to target specific growth from specific species who make that coral bridge or that ecosystem structures. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:46.559 Who are having a harder time right now. 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:48.000 Of course, right. 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:49.279 Which is the key, right? 00:13:49.360 --> 00:14:02.960 Like whatever you deploy into the ocean, and this is probably uh something that people that are not very familiar with the ocean would not have an intuition for, but whatever you deploy into the ocean, it's gonna be taken by something, right? 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:13.679 Like if if maybe you know like uh you toss a glass, uh glass bottle into the ocean, that's probably gonna get some sort of colonization by certain species. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.240 That doesn't necessarily mean restoration. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.240 Restoration is a bit more complex than that. 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:28.399 So it requires it requires taking uh caring about and taking the time to optimize the materials that are gonna be able to exert those uh objectives. 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.080 Okay, fantastic. 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:36.240 And um can you share, can you share any early deployment or case studies and yeah, absolutely. 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:51.039 Uh so uh our first year of deployments, uh we made one key decision uh that it's it's still very relevant till now, it's very relevant till now, which was proving this in contrasting ocean sites, right? 00:14:51.200 --> 00:15:07.840 Uh with with always have in mind the vision of this should be cheap enough, simple enough, uh just like practical enough to be deployed globally, because the climate crisis, it's really a global problem, so it requires a global solution as well. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:14.879 Uh so on that first year, we scaled with um a commercial partner here in Colombia, which was the national port. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:23.759 Uh, we also did a deployment in Portugal with a mix with a blended partner and a deployment in the Maldives. 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.120 And that was just the first year uh with a research partner. 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:38.080 And uh all of those deployments were very different because the ocean conditions were different, but it helped us prove one thing, which was that concept that I was mentioning before. 00:15:38.320 --> 00:16:01.279 The material was successfully targeting species that were that were relevant for restoration, not just genetic, not just uh genetic and turf, but species that were key for those places and species that were probably not finding the naturally occurring subtraits because uh the ocean is not, of course, foreign to climate change, right? 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:12.960 So like it suffers from ocean acidification, which is something that dissolves those those naturally occurring structures that are needed in the ocean so these species thrive, right? 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:29.519 So it helps us prove that that the concept for biodiversity restoration was being successful at targeting those species that were relevant uh for those restoration purposes, even in very contrasting ocean sites. 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:40.000 I think the the you know, like the most recent deployment that have really struck me is a deployment in Ambon Island. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.919 Uh it's an island in Indonesia within the Coral Triangle. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:50.000 And it's it's been the most extreme biodiversity that I've seen on Bluesinkies. 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:59.360 Uh, we just finished now uh doing uh the biodiversity uh kind of reporting that we do internally for the client uh for that project. 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:10.079 And I saw blue cinkies with you know like up to eight tonne cakes and sponges per structure, four coral recruits per structure. 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:16.000 And then again, like to put into context, our structures are not bigger than six centimeters diameter. 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:19.359 So that's really that's really great results. 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:24.400 Um and we're also like just really looking forward to expand to expand our project in that region. 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:25.599 Yeah, well. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:34.160 So you know what are the you know, you've touching on this, but the benefits beyond carbon uh do does blue zinc aim to unlock? 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:50.319 Yeah, so essentially uh biodiversity is very important and it's it's kind of crucial because I I'm I'm still waiting for the space to catch up and provide uh an economic validation to everything that has to do with biodiversity. 00:17:50.559 --> 00:18:01.279 In places like what I was mentioning just before, it can mean restoration of those coral uh reefs that have a direct implication in food security, right? 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:18.559 Like you don't you don't really need to look very forward to understand their there's knowledge that is built in those regions in which especially the local communities understand pretty well that because they lost a portion of the reef in some area, they cannot go fish there anymore. 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:29.279 So there's a direct link again in in some things, uh in things that are

um economically important, hence haven't been economically valued. 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:43.519 But the rule is there is always there to restore those places because just the local communities and the local ecosystems more talking about colour, uh fishermen and whatnot are very aware of those facts. 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:48.079 And the second uh is probably coastal uh protection, right? 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:56.799 Um there are many, there are many solutions right now working that can be addressed using two types of logics. 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.559 The first logic is of course building the coastal protection ourselves, right? 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:17.519 So that means deploying maybe huge structures or most of the time cement-based or biosement-based concrete, exactly, which I think it's probably a solution that comes when there's nothing else to do and it and we're probably too late to act. 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:38.160 Um but my thesis and my personal preference is we'll start uh working on those models way before that, so we can have the same core race and ecosystems naturally doing that and doing that for free, uh, even right, which is which is the way we've had it our entire um our entire lives. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:39.839 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:41.119 I think it's wonderful. 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:52.799 Okay, so uh we're gonna take a quick break there and then come back in part two, where we're gonna deep dive into how you came from assigned startup to a commercial strategy. 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.200 So we'll be back real soon. 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:06.559 You're listening to Drop in the Ocean, the podcast that brings together ocean change makers and digital experts, helping us all amplify our impact. 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:21.519 If you're listening to this and thinking we're doing important work, but our digital strategy just isn't quite landing, that's exactly what I help you with. 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.279 Find me at stew-davies.com. 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.559 Welcome back to a drop in the ocean. 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.559 Today's guest I've got with me is Lorena Near, who is the CEO of Bluesync. 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:37.759 Welcome back, Lorena. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.359 Thank you, Sue. 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:58.400 So uh this section and what when we chatted on our pre-podcast chat, we really wanted to kind of um bring out this story of how you went from a scientific startup to being a successful commercial model and the challenges of that and the successes you've had with that. 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:04.640 So I think before before we um before we start diving into some of this, who who are you actually your clients? 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.880 Who who's purchasing this the technology? 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:14.559 How did you and how did you come to the point where you you you've done this thing and it grew in the pandemic and you you knew it was it was something? 00:21:14.720 -->

00:21:19.920 How did then you then you decide to like sell that to somebody and it was off value? 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:24.160 Yeah, yeah, I mean it it definitely takes a village. 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:31.440 I think to the question of who are our clients, it's probably a combination of we have a fair understanding of who our clients are. 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:40.079 We probably know we're it we're young enough for that to still change and and be kind of like optimized, right? 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:56.160 I I think you know for the client segment uh understanding question, what I could reply is that's also one of the things that have pivoted, and that that's probably you know a work in progress to this day. 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:01.119 So when we started the company uh and when we started building The business model. 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:17.279 We definitely were envisioning ourselves as a carbon, you know, like pre-straightforward carbon removal company where we're gonna be offering this for someone interested in carbon assets, deploy the tech, quantify the carbon sell it, uh, pretty straightforward uh process. 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:37.039 So, in that journey, I think our first understanding of our client segment was you know, like it definitely needs to be someone that is willing to fund the technology that is a that is a any company basically uh that emits carbon to a to a fair amount should be compensated. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:42.400 And then probably stakeholders that have something that we call legs in the ocean. 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:54.000 So that translates into licensed areas of ocean that they're using for certain purposes where we can deploy at and they can give us that regulatory access for uh to those areas. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:00.480 So that very uh probably, you know, like uh some people might be imagining who that uh might be. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:06.000 For us, that was ports and offshore um wind farms. 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:13.519 Because for these, for these kind of partners, they have one thing in common a bunch of unutilized maritime space, right? 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.319 So in the port case, uh is because you need the space uh to allow the maritime traffic. 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:30.000 For offshore wind farms is because because of a simple engineering uh condition, you cannot quite place a turbine next to the other one, right? 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:31.920 Like you need to enable some space. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:43.839 So that that leaves them with a bunch of unutilized maritime space, and of course, um carbon and environmental objectives that are very key also to their business, right? 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:50.480 Because they're businesses that happen in the ocean and they need a healthy ocean to uh continue to go business as usual. 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:56.799 So we started with those uh client segments, those are still our client segments, and people we're we're still working on. 00:23:56.880

--> 00:24:02.079 Uh we're actually, you know, I would love to give uh to give you the premise, but I can't quite now. 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:09.759 But we're actually gonna announce uh a very good uh project with a quite big uh maritime infrastructure company this year. 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:11.920 We're very, very, very excited about that one. 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:26.559 But just to sum to that, I think something that has um that the time we've been out in the space have taught us is client segments are usually not that straightforward, at least not for the kind of solution that we're trying to push. 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:38.960 Because for us and for business model, the way we've been building it, it's kind of funny because the beneficiary is not the same as the buyer in many of the cases. 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:39.440 Right? 00:24:39.599 --> 00:25:03.039 So before I was mentioning probably the people that are gonna start that are gonna first see the consequences of deploying our technology are not necessarily those buyers, but are gonna be the communities that are noticing the benefits of adhering biodiversity or restoration to a carbon removal solution that has the profitable framework to operate at. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:17.359 Um and so in that journey we've realized actually restoration providers a great client segment uh for us as well, because they have also the regulatory access to those maritime spaces. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:23.839 But most importantly, they have the operational knowledge uh to deploy our technology. 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:30.799 They actually can enrich our operational operational knowledge to do that in different uh environments. 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:57.519 So, what we've been doing right now is also grow a different revenue pathway that includes people that are uh, for instance, working in, you know, I don't want to mention coral reefs too much because they're not the only ecosystem we can deploy at, but coral restoration providers has been another segment as well, uh, to just expand deployment and uh potentially backtrack on the carbon that was uh captured uh through those deployments as well in the future. 00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.039 Wow, yeah, yeah. 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.039 It's uh yeah, and yeah, it's it's it's such a wonderful, wonderful idea. 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:09.359 And what do they say um sometimes uh sniff uh sniff what sells? 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:15.599 So yeah, you know, you kind of like let let see what see with these things, let's see see how the market brings it up. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:20.720 So scientific innovation is one thing, but you've turned it into a business and a market offering. 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.039 Well, how has that transition been like? 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:32.480 Yeah, I think that transition has definitely been the hardest, but also the most fascinating part of it, right? 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:42.079 So, like uh as someone that does scientifically train, you're you're very used to saying, so on this hand, but also this, right? 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.559 Like, but there's complexity in this and whatnot. 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.319 I think in business you need way more clarity than that. 00:26:48.480 --> 00:27:00.799 So the translation has been learning to translate those very profound complexities uh about the ocean, ocean health, and what we need to do for uh biodiverse ecosystems to happen. 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:06.880 And by the way, uh just just as a parenthesis, whenever I talk about biodiversity, it's very strange. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.279 And I I've understood uh recently I need to really clarify it. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:28.720 But whenever you think about biodiversity, please do think as ecosystems that are gonna be naturally, scalably, very in a very cost-effective manner, also scaling carbon removal because that's what comes with uh biodiverse ecosystems. 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:33.359 They naturally and very in a very healthy way also remove that carbon. 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.759 That's the problem we have right now because we have a biodiversity loss crisis. 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:40.319 We're emitting even more carbon. 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.519 More carbon is being released back to the atmosphere. 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:46.480 So um, yeah, I'm gonna close the parenthesis there. 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:52.079 But I think that the biggest learning has been, yeah, business needs uh way more clarity. 00:27:52.160 --> 00:28:04.240 Uh so I think that's that's what the process has been: learning how to translate those very, very complex, um, very complex concepts into something that investors and partners can act on. 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:09.759 It's it's really just tell them like here's what it is, here's how you can participate. 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:16.480 Uh kind of like you want to remove carbon, okay, but let's talk about also investing in restoring this fishery. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:22.000 Or like, is your objective or the thing you have in mind more of an um ESG goal? 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:23.680 Sure, that's that's great, right? 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:29.680 But let's talk about what real quantifiable biodiversity looks like and water entails. 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.200 It's yeah, it's kind of like that's that's what the process has been. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:33.599 Yeah. 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.160 Yeah. 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:39.440 And I can imagine with some stakeholders, tech investors, they're looking for what what could the return be? 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:40.880 What's the go-to-market strategy? 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:48.319 What's the, you know, we you have to turn what you've done into something like that as well, which is a step change. 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:49.039 Right. 00:28:49.119 --> 00:29:13.519 And I think I think something very important is uh, and this is something that is part of all of our conversations with uh clients

and supporters, is first of all, um it's very important that we start, we start talking about the elephant in the room, which is the very evident trade-off that is uh between that exists between funding, quality of those projects, and then the time it takes, right? 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:24.960 Uh restoration takes time, it takes funding, it takes, and that literally has a consequence, or like very evidently so has a consequence on the quality of those projects and the outcomes. 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:27.920 Uh so that's the elephant in the room. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:57.519 And I think that's very important to just like bring very early in the conversation because whenever whenever you're selling to someone, something that can be very evident, you're the mission and the the plan you're proposing is committed to the outcomes rather than just, you know, like I sold you this and I'm whatever it went well for me already, is the fact that you're willing to sit there and propose doing doing those things together and just like learn together very humbly. 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:07.359 Um just like yeah, humility, humility about learning together about the process and understanding how to make the outcomes uh better. 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:18.240 I think it's it's quite relevant uh for any strategy that's or any solution that has been sold in the name of biodiversity restoration. 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:41.440 Yeah, so um so for you so for this sector, the key is you you but you you have to know how how your product is going to work in the long term, how it's gonna work for biodiversity, how it's gonna work for the environment, how it's gonna work commercially, and then educating those stakeholders, investors, the partners, etc., the NGOs on that piece so you can take them with you. 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:52.640 Yeah, and I think especially whenever you're trying to push a solution that uh, you know, as you as you say, and I agree, it's probably very um very new to the space, right? 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:59.119 Uh so it's it's a it's a process of just learning, just deploying and see how it goes, right? 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:04.079 Like the best way you need, you have to prove something works is doing it. 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:16.559 Um so simply just collectively deploying, integrating everyone that is important for that process and and enabling the spaces where you can be very transparent about it uh and learn together. 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:17.839 Yeah, brilliant. 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:18.319 Okay. 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.000 So how did you decide on BlueSync's initial commercial route? 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:24.720 Um, that first kind of move movement through. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:26.400 How did you come about that? 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:28.799 Yeah, I think as I was saying before, right? 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:36.079 Like the first commercial route was was very um very much about carbon removal, and that's that was also our biggest pivot,

right? 00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:50.720 Like carbon removal, sure, we can be a carbon removal company, we're probably making a better bet on what's gonna be uh sustainable and and what's gonna last in the longer term if we also integrate biodiversity into it. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:56.880 Uh so we started as a pre-historical carbon removal, um carbon removal company. 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:12.880 And across across the long deployments, we realize for it to make people for it to make sense uh for people in those uh deployments in even the shorter term, biodiversity needed to be included. 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:21.599 So um so yeah, I think I think that's pretty much how it went and how it's been building uh the more we learn. 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:22.480 Yeah, okay. 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.440 And what was the biggest strategic pivot you've had to make? 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.880 Was it initial target markets, the pricing, the partners? 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.440 What's the biggest thing you've had to change? 00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.319 Integrating biodiversity again, I think that's the biggest pivot, right? 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:41.200 Whenever you look at the CDR space, uh it's really about carbon for carbon. 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:52.960 Um I think what we're saying is if we're then investing by in integrating biodiversity into the carbon space now, we're gonna be paying for the unintended consequences later, right? 00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:04.160 So I think another pivot is probably, you know, uh we like to have this uh this systems thinking frameworks and whatever uh we do. 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.799 So and we understand that as three systems. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:12.480 The first system is the the trade-off between carbon and biodiversity, that's that's one of them. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:25.759 Or kind of like um yeah, some um something that we we are kind of like seeing constantly in the space, which is kind of like this understanding you can only do one effectively. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:31.759 Um the second one is just philanthropy when it comes to restoration projects. 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:54.480 So something that we have abilitated within our business models is because we are deploying also in these restoration sites, and we're probably one of the only OE approaches that are actively working on optimizing their OE to be deployable at restoration sites and not just like very far from the coast in very ocean spaces where nothing is really happening. 00:33:55.440 --> 00:34:10.960 So abilitating that or enabling that for restoration sites also means that these restoration uh projects that don't need to just rely on philanthropy, but they can also rely on the longer term in profitable revenue sources. 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:20.480 And that's very important because continuous revenue is very important for that trade-off I was talking about between funding quality of those projects and the time it takes. 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:24.639 And the third system is um just the material, right? 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:35.760 OAE, especially OAE using very pure degree minerals, might pose uh a new demand for mining, which also emits CO2. 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:48.719 So, what we've been doing very actively is trying to understand what mineral byproducts already exist in the industry and could be centered into the nodules that we make for restoration. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:07.840 Um which is which is to my you know, like to my understanding, quite a good uh surprise about doing things that are longer lasting, because it means sure, what a toss powder is that might react faster and might capture CO2, um, you know, like faster. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:15.840 But we also, because of that same reason, have the opportunity to outcycle minerals, which means not contributing to that mining demand. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:21.840 So that's yeah, those are the three kind of like uh islands that I can think about for that question. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.280 I love it, it's circular. 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.039 I love the circular thinking. 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:38.400 But um, you know, so um one of our audience asked a question um before the show, and they asked, how do you balance like selling something or selling a commodity with staying true to your mission of ocean health and environmental integrity? 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:40.800 And how do you keep control of that? 00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:55.519 Yeah, I think I I think you know, like uh to be very frank, that's one of the hardest parts, uh, because you're always gonna have you're always gonna have this pressure to make the business more profitable in the sh in the in shorter time, right? 00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:06.719 But I think the simple answer to that one is aligning, so you you really need to care about aligning your business model with the mission of the company. 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:15.519 In our case, our business model is pretty aligned right now with making those restoration providers happy as well. 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:29.360 We don't really get to access an area deployed there and expand those projects from the from the incubation or inception deployments if those restoration partners are not seeing results as well. 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:36.960 Our mission is definitely to restore and in that sense removals. 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.400 Uh, so that means the business model needs to be aligned with that. 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:55.679 So we're don't found we don't find ourselves in a couple of years just saying, sure, uh we deploy this technology that captures you to it through a chemical pathway, we have no whatsoever uh on biodiversity and uh in those places. 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.800 Okay, right. 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:03.280 And um how how do you communicate value to impact-oriented partners and commercial clients? 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:10.320 I think I think probably for that one it's more the

end-and-end framework, right? 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:21.199 So, of course, whenever you talk to a more impact-oriented partner, you discuss uh all of the aspects around enhancing uh conditions in those places, right? 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:29.760 Like you discuss the metrics, um uh you discuss more more, let's say, closer to science aspects uh to the projects. 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:49.119 Whenever you're talking to the other kind of partner, you you uh you know, like you get to do those things as well, but you also need to land it on uh the more practical sense of how this makes sense for it to scale, which is uh probably you know uh something that we should make more of an effort. 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.440 And here I'm I'm identifying more with the scientific community in that sense, right? 00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:05.280 Like you usually think um if we discuss profitability, then like we're probably dismissing uh important aspects for science, but science is really nothing if we don't get to execute at scale, right? 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.280 Like it doesn't really have an impact. 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:12.639 So I think having great ideas is great, uh right, like for the scientific community. 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:17.280 Uh publishing great ideas on scientific papers is absolutely awesome. 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:23.440 It doesn't really have an impact if no one goes grabs it and executes, right? 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:28.000 Execution is is the key for impact to be exerted. 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.360 So yeah, so that's kind of like what we use. 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:53.519 I think, you know, uh to be very practical here, having a very honest conversation about all of these things, just taking the time to go sit with sit with clients in person and and having all of these reflections, I think is a very practical advice I could give to anyone out there trying to uh trying to push a science-based uh idea. 00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:55.039 Okay, wonderful. 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:00.719 And and what what works best for you for building credibility with early partners or investors? 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.079 As I said, I think just doing it, right? 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:14.639 Uh at the very beginning, we were we were very uh reliant on just convincing the partners uh about doing something even downscale, right? 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:26.239 So we would sure this is very new, like to be very frank, not even you know, like we know um how it's gonna behave in your geography, in your ocean site, right? 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:33.199 Like uh to this day we've deployed in eight different countries, uh split in uh three different continents, right? 00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.159 So those are very, very diverse ocean sites. 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:42.320 We've never encountered the same, you know, kind of like ecosystem composition in any of those sites. 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:57.679 Uh so what we usually do is we sit with the partners uh and we go

like we're willing to put the effort to deploy a very downscale deployment, which is not gonna mean um a significant or you know hard to make financial decision for you. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:04.000 We'll learn with you, we're we're we're just gonna see how it goes and we make decisions from them, from there. 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:14.079 Uh and I think um I think that's heavily and positively impacted the way we understand engineering at the moment, right? 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:25.360 Like we understand pretty well now for some places it's not uh just deploying directly on the seafloor, but maybe building some sort of floating uh structure to deploy. 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:37.920 In some cases, we need to sort of fasten the blue scene keys to something or contain them uh into cages or whatnot, but that has come of convincing by showing. 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:38.880 Okay, brilliant. 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:39.760 Thank you for sharing. 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:46.400 So are there any lessons you wish you knew earlier about scaling kind of deep tech uh ventures in in ocean tech? 00:40:46.960 --> 00:41:02.960 Probably the first the first and biggest lesson, uh, and I think again this probably uh is gonna hit harder for science, science background, uh background founders, uh, is gonna be talking to clients before you feel ready. 00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:06.320 Or probably, you know, like probably this goes for all founders. 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:09.119 I do say it happening for all types of founders. 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:18.880 Talking to the client before you feel ready, before the before the product is uh fully optimized for the scenario you're kind of like very hypothetically imagining. 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:21.039 Sell it and build it afterwards. 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.199 I I I do I do feel you need to build it. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:33.519 There is no way you can build it and prepare for all the scenarios before actually trying to work something out with a real client. 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:42.079 So I think yeah, definitely talking to clients, like start those uh non-technical conversations before you feel right is very, very important. 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:42.559 Okay. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:45.679 Yeah, it's a very important piece of advice, yeah. 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:46.719 It's brilliant. 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:47.440 Great advice. 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.079 Great advice. 00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:52.000 But yeah, with a lot of startups, it is yeah, it doesn't have to be perfect. 00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:05.840 The core idea has to be there, you've got to have kind of the base bones, and work with your clients to build to build the prototype, you know, to get to get the you know, to get the the the the right model or the right tech together. 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:06.639 Absolutely. 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:12.320 I think as a matter of fact, it's probably never gonna be perfect, and that's fine. 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:18.960 Because if if it was fully optimized for something, you would also use some adaptability, right? 00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:26.239 So I think it's just like uh I think a very, very common piece of advice is fall in love with the problem, not the solution. 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:30.880 And that's honestly very real uh when you're building when you're building a venture. 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:41.679 Yeah, it's uh I work with quite a few clients on um uh some uh transformation, AI transformation projects, and it's like they'll always jump straight to the tech and go, what what does this need to do for us? 00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.280 It's now what is your problem or you what is your problem you're trying to solve? 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:47.519 Work that out, then go to the tech. 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.760 Yeah, absolutely. 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.400 Okay. 00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:54.320 Um so looking ahead, what what is next for blues inc? 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.840 You're scaling, you're going in certification, you're going to new markets. 00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:59.440 What's what's happening next? 00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:03.760 Yeah, so uh I what's happening right now is validation, right? 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:16.719 Like I I see uh I see our company going through uh three phases uh to get to the point where we're gonna get right like in those phases is something that we call validation, then finally expansion, right? 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:22.880 I think we're probably uh between validation and smart scaling right now. 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:32.159 So validation typically uh goes around understanding the capture carbon efficiency of um of our material, right? 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:43.840 Uh that's something that we're advancing uh with very brilliant partners out there that are working on the modeling of the carbon and just uh also validating physical chemical conditions of the places we deploy at. 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:48.320 So just validation of carbon is something that is generally happening with us. 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:56.079 Um, a very big mission that we have to then like go to smart scaling is we need to enable two things. 00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:59.760 The first thing is we need to, again, make a solution. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.320 That is cheap and simple enough so anyone could deploy it, right? 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:09.039 One part of our vision that goes to social and environmental co-benefits. 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:21.280 And this is something that can be deployed by anyone, so even local communities can access with the right funding to their own carbon removal sites and businesses. 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.599 So that's part of the smart scaling strategy. 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:36.159 And then when it comes to carbon validation, uh, because we're a unit-based system, meaning we manufacture, you know, like replicable blue sync is right. 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:42.639 Each blue sync is the same density, size, weight,

um, mass as the next one. 00:44:42.880 --> 00:45:13.119 So we what we envision is to have enough the a big volume of data, the carbon capture efficiency per unit, that would enable in the future to run the accountability of those removals by just the number of blue sinkers we deployed and not anymore the very intensive, especially um you know, deployments in which that needs to be quantified uh with very like expensive equipment and labor-intensive activities. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:20.639 So that's part of the the smart um scaling kind of like phase we're we're touching on just now. 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:29.760 Uh and then when it comes to expansion, um again, I think one idea that I already mentioned is climate change is a very global problem. 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.280 It needs a global solution. 00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:46.880 So in that expansion effort, what we see is probably a franchisable um a franchisable solution or business model in which again anyone could franchise the technology, manufacture, and deploy in their respective corners of the world. 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:52.400 Okay, but smart, scalable, like it, but sticking, sticking many commercial boxes. 00:45:52.639 --> 00:46:01.360 So um uh have you got any advice any advice for other ocean tech founders walking the science to market tightrope? 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:08.800 Yeah, I think I think again, just uh understand your mission is probably one of those. 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.800 Founding is a very raw, hard experience, right? 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:17.920 Like anyone, anyone who would say otherwise would probably be sugar coding it, right? 00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:22.159 So I I think understanding your mission is very, very important. 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:34.320 It's okay if that's something that uh transforms with time, but I think just having the clarity of what your real mission is, it's quite key. 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:40.079 Uh and it's quite key to also have that mission related to something that is not just profitability. 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:52.239 Profitability, of course, is everything relevant for a business, but that profitability needs to have a differentiator and a way to actually set roots uh in the space. 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:55.280 So um, yeah, mission clarity. 00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:02.400 And I think probably uh the other one again would be just have the conversations very, very early in time. 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:04.239 Uh knock on doors, right? 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:06.960 Like we're very practical about knocking on doors. 00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.199 Um events are are very important. 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:23.519 It's important to say no to events sometimes, but events are very key because you get to have the very like you know, train conversations, elevator conversations are that are gonna be really shaping your understanding of where to go and how to get there. 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:24.800 Okay, thank you. 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:30.880 And uh unfortunately we are at the end of the episode because you could talk for hours uh on this subject. 00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.960 But we'll just um I uh uh like all of my guests have a call to action. 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:40.800 So, what action your lit the listeners could take to support you or ocean health or marine innovation? 00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:57.360 Yeah, I think you know, like probably my call to action is uh whenever you see a carbon removal solution out there, or whenever you see any type of climate solution out there, really ask the question of what is that solution doing for biodiversity? 00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.920 Is it having any effect whatsoever? 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.400 Is it having any social co-benefit? 00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:22.960 Um, again, environmental and social co-benefits are something that are not quite um you know economically framed at the moment, but but that we really need to care about integrating into those funding um funding frameworks and business models if we don't want to be paying for the unintended of not doing it so uh in the future. 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:28.800 So just like um yeah, carbon removal should leave ecosystems stronger than it found it. 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:33.679 That's the bar, uh, understanding or relating to a uh carbon removal solution. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:34.719 Fantastic. 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:35.760 Okay, well thanks. 00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:37.360 Yeah, okay, it's a great call to action. 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:39.760 Lorena, you've been a fantastic guest. 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:41.280 Good luck with Blues Inc. 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:46.559 I'm gonna I'm gonna watch your journey closely, and we'll see you next time on a drop in the ocean. 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:47.519 Thank you. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:53.519 Thanks for listening to a drop in the ocean, helping us all amplify our impact. 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.519 New episodes will be available from your streaming platform of choice. 00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:01.599 Please like, review, and share to help us spread these messages. 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:03.280 See you next time.