رونوشت کامل Attendance Beyond the Stats: Rethinking Inclusion, Connection, and Belonging with Beth Gibson MBE

00:05:09.360 I'm kind of curious as to, you know, how we almost stop the data from obscuring the person. 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:18.959 You know, is there something maybe that the data might help us to notice earlier on, or maybe something that it might not ever tell us on its own? 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:24.879 Yeah, I mean, data is always useful, but it's only useful if you use it in the right way. 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.519 It's it's it's a starting point. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:35.839 And then from that, it's about the curiosity and the ability to ask the right questions at the right time. 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:55.279 So data can give you what groups are looking like, which which section of children you should be noticing, how you should be looking for patterns, um, and how you should be identifying the children that perhaps you kind of had a gut feeling about, but just nothing really to hang on. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.480 If you then look at the data, it gives you a bit more of a picture. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:05.120 And I think then it's about having the right people in the right space at the right time to ask the question. 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:06.800 And that's that's always the key thing. 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:16.319 So data will give you the who, it won't give you the how and the why, and the how and the why is the bit that is the is the meat on the bones, if you like. 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:17.680 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.839 So I guess it's that kind of bit of a curiosity hook in a way, isn't it? 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.160 As to my case is interesting. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:37.199 There's kind of something off here, and and I think, you know, if I could really just urge every education professional out there to trust your gut instinct, you know, if kind of something doesn't feel right, perhaps it's not. 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:44.560 And then Beth, as you're saying, kind of look at your data, you know, is there anything interesting happening, you know, maybe around those patterns? 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.839 You know, what else might we be able to glean from that? 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.480 So I guess, you know, a percentage is a signal, isn't it, rather than, you know, a kind of absolute formulation? 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:56.160 Yeah, that's it. 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:11.519 And I think the one thing that the data has come on so far in is that it's it's done that workload for schools that used to, um, if I think back sort of six years, would take a member of staff hours to do by hand. 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:13.279 The data has come so far now. 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:25.759 We've got such rich data that now the conversation for the staff can be how do we use that in the right way to get the right help at the right time for the children and the young people? 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:27.759 And that is the key thing now. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:38.240 Um, it's relieved one workload element, if you like,

in order to be able to refocus on where the work actually matters and has impact. 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:39.519 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:57.199 And I was kind of, you've just made me think there a little bit more about sort of inclusive pathways and that kind of area around, you know, I guess it doesn't always mean as well that, you know, for one young person that you know the goal is always to return to the same provision in the same form. 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:04.160 I wonder kind of what your reflections are as to kind of what inclusive pathways mean to you in practice. 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:17.279 Yeah, I think there is there is no, if you if you take, for example, EBSNA, there isn't one thing with EBSNA that is, you can't you can't look at a child with EBSNA and go, it's that. 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:19.120 There is no single cause. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:33.120 Um, it's a little bit like anybody who is dealing with uh a mental health um dilemma or problem in their life, is that it happens incrementally slowly over time and you don't necessarily notice it. 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:41.360 Um and then it becomes a problem down the line, and something that we then have have named. 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:45.440 And just by naming it doesn't necessarily unpick it. 00:08:45.679 --> 00:09:07.600 And with any child that has a difficulty with attending school or with any child that requires inclusion, there is that unpicking of of what is going on with this child, and and you might be able to pick the big bits off easily, but then you're still left with those little things that are still causing a problem. 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.720 There's a lovely analogy that you can't eat an elephant whole, you have to cut it in pieces. 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:21.919 And I absolutely swear by that when when you talk to a child, they they will come up with the big problem first of all. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.799 And you might be able to say, brilliant, okay, we can work on that. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:31.679 But once you take that away, you've only really removed the skin of the elephant, you've still got all the bits and bobs inside that you've got to kind of work on as well. 00:09:31.919 --> 00:10:14.320 Um, and I always, always, always remember the very first child post-COVID that I um came across with with EBSNA and supported, and the the time that we were able at that point, because we were still in periods of lockdown and we were still in bubbles, that that we had to put into working with that child and unpicking what had gone wrong and where where the elements had kind of come together in this in this thundercloud, really, all of the little raindroplets that had accumulated to create this problem of what had been before somebody who was really outgoing and sporty and had lots of friends and lots of activities, and there was no singularity. 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:19.360 And it took a really long time to work with that family and with that

child. 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:21.360 And it was not a perfect picture at the end. 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:28.480 Um, you know, there isn't a silver bullet that is going to solve that scenario, but um it is about understanding. 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.320 I think inclusion for me is about understanding every child. 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:42.240 And I think that we have an opportunity at the moment because we've got the send reforms that are coming out, we've got information around the needs and what's going on there. 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:51.679 We've there was there was a recent um news article, I think just this weekend that said um more and more young people now don't have close friendship circles. 00:10:52.080 --> 00:11:00.559 All of this really rich information that we have an opportunity to pull all of that together and kind of go, what does inclusion look like? 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:08.399 Because a lot of people, our brain automatically goes to, well, it's special needs, it's children with complex learning needs, and it absolutely is. 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:10.320 But it's a bit more than that as well. 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:18.320 It's about the grey children in the classroom that do the right things, but might go through an entire day where nobody says, Hi, how are you? 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:19.600 Are you okay today? 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:36.000 Or the child that's had just a little fallen out and doesn't feel like they fit in their friendship group anymore, but doesn't have anybody else, or you know, the child that is at risk of being put into care, or the child that has um their parents have are recently split up and they're feeling like they've lost part of their identity. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:48.159 Inclusion has to be for everyone, and it has to also be for children that are showing behavioural issues as well, that quite often we don't necessarily have the same level of understanding and sympathy for. 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:59.039 We don't feel sorry for them in quite the same way, but often they are communicating something else that is going on in their lives, and and inclusion has to be absolutely for everybody. 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:07.360 So when we're thinking about it, let's not just think of it, let's think of it through the SEN lens, absolutely 100%, but let's not just think of it through the SEN lens. 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.600 And I think that's really important because that's where attendance lies. 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:18.639 Because attendance isn't a thing in itself, it is a symptom of inclusion. 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:19.600 Absolutely. 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:26.480 Do you know what you've really brought a lovely young person back into my mind that I worked with a couple of years ago? 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:42.879 Um, their attendance was gradually reducing, you know, initially, you know, the kind of school's focus, understandably, you know, was on anxiety, getting her back, you know, through the school gates, you know, um, which of course is the the end goal. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:50.639 Um, but actually, when we kind of slowed down and listened properly, one of the biggest issues was literally what you've said there. 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.720 It was just that she didn't feel that she had any genuine friendships. 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.039 The friends she had were outside of school, you know. 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:07.519 For her, it was just so daunting just navigating the school day with that kind of feeling of I'm on my own, I'm different from everybody else. 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:18.799 You know, she often spoke about observing other people at lunch, kind of, you know, she was in year nine, so she was like, oh, you know, they're all gossiping together and talking about boys, and then, you know, there's me just on my own. 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:25.360 So for her, it was actually the elements of being outside of the classroom that were the most exposing. 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:40.159 Um, so we were really able to kind of then work with her in terms of sort of trying to support her to kind of navigate, you know, how she could maybe access some of the others, supporting her with kind of some friendship kind of pathway work. 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.159 It took time, you know, gosh, it was a good few months. 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:52.399 But I wonder whether do you often think as well about loneliness and those sorts of things and that kind of lack of meaningful connection? 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.000 You know, might that almost be one of the common denominators that might sit under much of that now? 00:13:58.799 --> 00:13:59.200 I do. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:13:59.840 I think so. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:05.120 I think you know, as a society, we've become more isolated as individuals. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:14.000 We spend less time socially, you know, and and we're not going to get into the conversation around mobile phones today, but there is an element that has come from that. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.279 And and we lead really, really busy lives. 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:22.639 You know, we, you know, there's a reason why we have our groceries delivered now. 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:31.840 There's a reason why we use food delivery, there is a reason why we buy into those things because we are leading really, really incredibly busy lives. 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:41.759 And I don't think that it's um a kind of a an inconsistency or an error or you know, something that is that we might not have pinned together. 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.639 But children are also spending less time outside. 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:53.600 Um, you know, they're doing less things um socially outside because as parents, what we want is we want to protect our children and keep them safe. 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:59.279 And there is there is this fear that the that something outside is going to cause harm. 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:07.759 You know, so you see less

children in parks because there's an inherent risk of of hanging around in parks and the dangers and what we've what we've read online about that. 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:22.639 We know that children are spending more time online, but actually, beyond that, particularly since COVID, and and we're not going to kind of blame COVID anymore because we've moved past that, you know, we're six years down the line, but children haven't returned to activities in the same way. 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:30.320 They don't have the same hobbies and interests, and part of that is money, it's very expensive to do a hobby or an interest. 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:37.679 There are, you know, there are lots of amazing clubs and activities and wonderful things out there, and some of them aren't hugely expensive to join. 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:57.279 But then when you add in the cost of getting there or the travel time, or the parents having to commit to, if I think about what my children and just for them to do one activity, it's a half an hour journey and then the hour activity and then a half an hour back, you know, and that's just for one child to do one thing. 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:03.679 If you think take something like swimming, if you've got, which is a life skill, and you know, we'd want everyone to be able to swim. 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:09.600 Uh, and again, there's a news report about the increase in number of of black children that aren't able to swim. 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:09.919 Yeah. 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:23.919 Um, but you think if you've got three children potentially in your household, the cost of that um and the practicality of if you can get them to all swim at the same time or not, you know, the the the myriad of things that are going on. 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:43.360 I don't think that there is um, I think there is something about the the decline in children's uptake of activities and the access to activities and loneliness and isolation and all of these things have kind of a culminated really into like the perfect storm, if you if you like. 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:45.279 Yeah, I think they really, really have. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:17:08.480 And again, you know, kind of not just things about COVID, but more broadly, you know, going back to what you were saying about, you know, sometimes the anxiety and fear of you know, kind of parents and carers, you know, I've seen that a lot with um children who have, you know, pre-existing medical conditions, or um again, going back to kind of thinking about you know, sort of poor mental health and well-being. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.079 And for some parents and carers, it's scary, isn't it? 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.920 Seeing your child go through the school gate, you know, kind of thinking, are school going to be able to meet their needs? 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.599 You know, they're really vulnerable. 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.960 You know, are we then kind of opening them up to wider risk? 00:17:23.119

--> 00:17:26.799 It's it's a really, really kind of tricky gig, isn't it? 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:27.519 Being a parent. 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:36.319 And then especially if we then layer on maybe send medical, mental health, it's a whole kind of other ball game, isn't it? 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.559 It is, and you know, parents might be dealing with that for themselves as well. 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:48.160 For their children, you know, you know, the there are children, there are parents out there that are dealing with health issues that are dealing with mental health issues. 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:55.119 That is all a layer on on the reason why there are the problems with children um being able to access school. 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.279 Yeah, no, it's true, it's true. 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:24.799 I mean, have you got any thoughts about, you know, how a school might be able to balance the sort of importance of education and you know, helping a child to kind of really enjoy all of those wider benefits that just aren't in the curriculum, like friendships and belonging and you know, all of those sorts of things, but whilst taking parental knowledge and medical risk and those sorts of things seriously, you know, is it I mean, I think that's kind of particularly important, isn't it? 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:30.240 If you know a child has something that might be invisible or perhaps fluctuating? 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.400 Yeah, I mean, you know, always start. 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:41.440 I always think if you don't start with the voice of the parent and the child, you're never going to be effective. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:41.759 Yeah. 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:48.640 Just have opening up that conversation and saying, do we need to is is there something that we can help with? 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:49.599 Is there a problem? 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.000 Is there an issue that you would like support with? 00:18:52.240 --> 00:19:05.680 Because if you think about the average parent, um, I I have a child in primary school and a child in secondary school, they may come into your school unless you've asked them to come in specifically to speak about the child. 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:12.799 You know, if you include drop-offs and pickups, they're probably coming into the building twice a year, actually into the building, maybe for a parent's event. 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.079 Yeah, maybe for an event. 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:15.920 Let's say three times a year. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.160 If you think about drop-off and pickup, I did I did the school run this morning. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:27.039 I didn't speak to a member of staff during the drop-off and pickup because it's not it's not part of the routine. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:38.240 So I think the expectation of thinking that parents are going to come through that door and say, there is a problem, I need to talk to somebody, can I have some support? 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.759 There are some

parents that that will and and can, and that's amazing. 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.279 And that for some, there is that fear. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:49.920 Um, and and quite rightly so, because maybe they had a negative experience when they were at school themselves. 00:19:50.079 --> 00:20:05.680 Maybe it didn't go how they would have liked for themselves, and they've got that fear attached, or maybe they don't want to actually say it out loud, or maybe there's a there's a you know, there's a bit of a shame attached, isn't there, of there's something not quite right here and I need to ask for help. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:13.839 Um and I think that the conversation has to start with the voice of the parent and the child, and if you haven't got that, you can't go anywhere. 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:24.799 But I also think that schools need to try and look at schools through the eye of a child, and what does that look like? 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:39.359 So we spend a lot of time on getting the curriculum right, and we spend a lot of time on making sure that we've got you know calm and purposeful environments, and then and then we put them outside at social time, but what does that look like for a child? 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:50.720 Like you said, the child that's noticing all of the children gossiping, or the child that's got loads of friends around them, versus the one that sat there with a book because they just feel like they don't fit in and it's they're hiding. 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.519 What does that experience look like for them? 00:20:53.759 --> 00:21:39.279 And I I think really one of my children recently went from primary school to secondary school last year, and the one thing when I had a conversation with him is that he just said school isn't fun anymore, and that's and that's really quite sad that you know primary schools do amazing stuff, and I think that you know, think about what the experience that my daughter has, and and you know, they buy into I know they buy into something at at social times um that is about play and and learning through play and the way the different ways that they can how valuable that that playtime is, and then there's almost this shift that we get to secondary school, and it's almost like we've assumed they don't need that anymore. 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:48.160 And I think that if you walk through a school and you think, what does the social time look like for these children? 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:54.640 Okay, we maybe we have football on, great, that's brilliant, but what about children that don't like football? 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.759 Yeah, you know, if if we have you know sports facilities on, what do we do for those? 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.680 Children that aren't sporty, that aren't into sport, and okay, so we open the library, but maybe they don't all want to read. 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:12.559 So having options available and just allowing them to be children for a little bit longer. 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:23.440 Okay, if we're if we're going to take the mobile phones away, which you know, again, and we're not going to get into that debate, but it's it's happening, then what are we replacing that with? 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.200 Okay, we want children to be able to interact with their peers. 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:39.599 But for some children, again, if they're not part of a social group, if they're not part of a sport, sports facility, if they don't go to a club outside of school, they're going to need to learn that because potentially they haven't done it for years. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.240 And how are we facilitating that? 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:46.240 So it's really thinking about what opportunities are there. 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:58.480 I think about my last school, and it was just um a football pitch and a playground, and we just kind of expected children to do something with it, and it was really, really quite sad. 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:04.480 And then we invested in getting um some activities for the playground. 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:11.759 You know, we had table football, we had some basketball courts, we had some um, you know, table courts, but we also had had things inside as well. 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:22.720 So, you know, we had uh a Mario Kart on a on a Friday and those kinds of things, and we put different things on at different times just for different children to feel like they had something. 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:35.440 And I think once you do that, you you keep the child a child for a little bit longer, but also you give them a reason to want to be on that day, exactly. 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:37.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:45.359 It's true, even if it is just getting through the week because you know that on Friday lunch that's Mario Kart's club, uh that might just be enough, you know. 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:54.400 Yeah, and there are some, you know, there are schools that do silent discos, the schools that do that don't do silent discos, do most two discos in the playground on a Friday. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:00.559 But if it's brilliant, it gets them through the door and it gives them a little bit of joy and a little bit of do you know what? 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.079 For that 15 minutes, I'm just gonna be a child again. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:05.920 Yeah, and it's so important. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:24.240 And I think you know, we're almost talking about the idea of felt safety in a way, aren't we, without even like naming it, you know, in terms of I'm just thinking about you know, children and young people, you know, fun and and you know, that kind of group membership idea is really all linked back, isn't it? 00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.880 To kind of do you feel safe in school? 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:43.039 You know, so perhaps some of those lovely outlets there, you know, the kind of table football and you know, it's all kind of contributing, isn't it, towards the idea

of, you know, I can be Jess, I can be Beth here, you know, I'm I'm seen, school understand my interests. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:56.480 It's not all just English, math, science, you know, we know as adults those are the things that are going to get us the jobs, but you know, maybe when you're six or twelve, you know, there's other really important things at that point, aren't there? 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.000 Um, you know, that kind of really help children to be who they are. 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:33.519 So I wonder maybe whether, you know, perhaps whether you sort of had any thoughts in terms of, you know, how we might build those relationships with the children as adults as well, you know, in terms of, I'm not just thinking about kind of re-engagement, perhaps after a pattern of lower attendance, I'm kind of thinking about that prevention as well, you know, kind of having an adult or several adults that kind of really can genuinely make us feel safe and who genuinely know what makes us tick and what matters to us. 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.240 Yeah, I mean, the thing is, isn't it? 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:40.319 If if you think about belonging, we all, even as adults, we want to belong. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.759 We want to feel like we it becomes part of your identity. 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:53.359 It's why you know, if you support a football team, you wear the shirt with the badge because it's about belonging and it, but it's about you outwardly saying, This is part of my identity. 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.119 And what we want to do in schools is create that same thing. 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:01.920 We want to say, okay, when you wear the school badge, you belong. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.039 That is part of your identity, it's part of who you are. 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:12.240 Um, and I think that when we belong to something, it's because we feel seen. 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:15.920 And when we feel seen, it's because somebody has noticed us. 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:21.440 And I think we cannot ever underestimate the power of notice. 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:29.839 And and having someone that says hello to you on a daily basis or having someone that remembers something about you. 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:48.079 When I was working in schools in attendance, a really big thing of mine was every child that we were working with to support, um, we would say to the children, just get staff to know about it so that you know we knew that if they were interested in fishing, I don't know anything about fishing, but maybe you could tell me. 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:54.079 Or, you know, just to, but also as a staff to put a little bit, a little bit of ourselves out there. 00:26:54.160 --> 00:27:20.000 We don't need to put 100% of ourselves out there, but there's there's no there's nothing wrong with children knowing which members of staff like Pokemon or which members of staff like, you know, like horror, or which members of staff uh, you know, are into a

certain type of music because that's when they feel connection and and belonging is all about connections and building that sense of that they're like me. 00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:21.440 I I see me in them. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:28.559 Um, and and that's so important for children is being able to say, I'm okay liking manga because Mr. 00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.160 X likes manga too. 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.079 Uh and and I and it's and it's okay. 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:32.880 Yeah. 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:33.680 Yeah. 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:34.880 That's so nice. 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:40.319 And I think you know, the other thing with that as well is, you know, it's okay for me to be authentic as an adult. 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.920 So if I don't know anything about Pokemon, I'm so sorry, Beth. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.000 I have I really don't know about that. 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.319 You know, either can you tell me a bit about it? 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.680 You know, do you have the cards? 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:56.559 Can you introduce me to some of your favourite characters, or maybe own it and say, actually, do you know Mr. 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:57.359 Wilson? 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.160 He is the biggest Pokemon fan I know. 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:01.839 Let's go find them together. 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:07.279 Um, you know, we don't have to be the kind of font and pillar of all knowledge, do we? 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:17.279 You know, it's I think as a staff body, hopefully between us, we've got enough kind of cultural references um to be able to kind of support with that. 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:26.559 But you know, it doesn't have to be something that we fake or that we're insincere about because children and young people are the very first to catch me out. 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.960 I don't know about you, but they'll ask me a question like, so what colours pick a chew? 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.359 Uh neon purple? 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:34.720 I don't know. 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:46.720 So yeah, it's it's a really lovely way, isn't it, to kind of demonstrate that kind of trust and you know, equally not blagging our way out of some of those conversations. 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.279 Yeah, you've got to be authentic with it, haven't you? 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:54.400 I think that's really important what you just said there about not blagging because children can smell as well when you're not authentic with it. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.720 And so that's that's really important as well. 00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:58.319 Yeah, it really, really is. 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:05.759 And I don't know about you, but I'm also really kind of increasingly interested at the moment in the concept of mattering as well. 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:20.160 So that kind of idea of, you know, am I noticed, am I valued, am I almost like consequential, you know, to kind of something, you know, that's helpful in my school community, you know, am I kind of wanted here? 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:36.240 And as you've said, you know, I think so many of those just little small everyday interactions, you know, kind of really help to show that child or young person, actually, we want you here, you know, we we know when you're not here, we notice, we miss you when you're not in. 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:39.119 And you know, these are the reasons why. 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.000 Yeah, I yeah, I could not agree more with you. 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.880 And I think that we've reached that point as well, haven't we? 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:59.519 If I think back to my early career, you know, it was a very different kind of school that we were working in because um there was a lot more openness with curriculum and learning. 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:06.799 And I think that again, through no fault of the schools at all, it has narrowed in the past 20 years. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:20.319 And we've kind of expected children to have to fit a one-size-fits-all model and fit in, fit, you know, everybody has to fit through the same shape, and children very quickly notice I don't fit that shape. 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:32.960 And I think that's when the problems start in terms of, well, if I don't fit that shape, I don't belong here, and school isn't for me, and therefore I'm not gonna go today. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.200 Um, and they won't know this and they won't miss me, don't fit in that shape. 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:57.279 And I again, I hope that we've got the opportunity to reframe that um with what has been proposed in terms of broadening this back out in terms of skills and and and um qualifications and and options um into so that it can become, do you know what? 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:03.599 It's a little bit like Forest Gump, it's a box of chocolates and you never know what you're gonna get because everybody chocolate, aren't they? 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:03.920 Do you know? 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.319 Yeah, and and and I think it's true, it's true. 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:15.599 Um if you think you know, if you have children and you think about your own children, they never you never you never get to the same. 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:25.279 And that's that's the real joy of them, is that they're not the same, but they very quickly um want to be their own their own authentic selves. 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:30.880 And it's about us being able to reflect that as a society, being able to say, do you know what? 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:38.160 If if that's if that's the route that you're you are destined for and that's your choice, then you don't need to fit into this model. 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:45.200 So I will try not to kind of go into my forest gump impression, it's it's not a good one. 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:54.559 Instead, I will draw our attention to now thinking about maybe if it's if it's our child, you know, we are the parent or carer. 00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:59.039 We're at home now battling to try

to get our child in. 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:06.960 You know, they are feeling like they aren't the right shape, you know, that they're not going to fit in this kind of pre-made mould. 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.720 I'm kind of wondering about, you know, that experience of being a parent or carer. 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:31.440 And, you know, almost kind of thinking about some of the very things that we have to do in education, like calls, letters, meetings for parents, how sometimes they may land in a way that might kind of frighten or kind of cause shame in a way. 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:44.000 Because I don't know about for yourself, but a lot of parents and carers that I've worked with, they kind of feel like we're blaming them, like they're almost like the cause of their child not going in. 00:32:44.319 --> 00:33:05.599 Um, and of course, you know, sometimes that might well be the case, but I think the majority of the time, you know, we really do have parents and carers who are battling every morning, you know, the the kind of Sunday night wobbles, kind of knowing that despite your best effort, tomorrow probably isn't going to be a school day. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.559 I don't know whether you've got any reflections on that. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.480 It's really hard, isn't it? 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:11.359 It is. 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:18.960 I think that, and and again, it comes back to that first of all, trying to separate, and it is really hard to do, isn't it? 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:30.480 Is trying to separate yourself and your experience of being at school from what your child is going through, and I and and not blaming school. 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:43.039 Um, and and you know, I've heard it a few times, and and not actually from from parents that I'm working with, but in wider community, well, the school's always been like that and it's never going to change. 00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:51.039 But once you start to blame the school, yeah, you add to the wall that the child's already built. 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.359 You know, you're you're adding bricks to that. 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:59.599 Don't um you it has to be a partnership and there has to be respect on both sides. 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:08.480 So as as difficult as it is, try not to um blame the school because uh the school is just a building. 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:12.159 Um it is it is it's just a building. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:33.920 And what you are saying is that at the moment there is a difficulty with my child being able to access the building because um or or even actually access the learning, because if you if you were learning, if you can pick up a book and learn at home, you are learning, but you're learning in a different building. 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:54.000 So the the conversation then has to be around how do we work collaboratively together to try and take down that wall one brick at a time and being kind to yourself and letting as hard as it is, trying

to let go of the shame, and that and there will be that embarrassment factor. 00:34:54.159 --> 00:35:04.559 Nobody wants to be the parent on the playground whose child is crying and everybody's looking at them and they're like they want the the hole to grow and swallow them up. 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:09.599 Nobody wants to be that, but we have to you have to understand that there is no shame. 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:26.960 And if the first thing to do is to go in and have a conversation, even if you can't get the words out, and even if you don't know the the reasoning behind it, is just saying, I think I might need a little bit of help here, I think I might need a little bit of support here. 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:33.519 Um, and it and that's as far as you need to go in the first instance, just to have that in to open the door. 00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:40.000 And once you've opened the door, you can then start to work together on on what is what is the problem. 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:43.440 And and it's not going to be a quick fix. 00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:47.519 There is no magic bullet, you know, there is nothing that you can say. 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.719 Um I've worked with parents that have said, you know, tell me tell me what to do and I'll do it. 00:35:52.880 --> 00:36:06.079 And and you're like, I'd love to be able to tell you what to do, but I I don't necessarily have all of the answers, and I don't, I don't think anybody um I think we would be wrong if we stood there and we said that we have all of the answers. 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:11.760 And it and it's unfair as get again to expect schools to do because they're not again, they're not mental health professionals. 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:19.360 We have to understand that that their training is in is in teaching and learning, and it's not it's not in that. 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:35.679 But what they can do is they can offer support and guidance and signposting and you know the and again, something else that I would say to parents is find other parents that are going through the same situation as you. 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:48.719 Try and avoid, try and avoid it online because I think the misinformation for parents online is is again really quite scary and yeah, yeah, it really is quite militant and down that that blame that blame route. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:53.679 But there are some amazing, absolutely amazing parent and carer forums out there. 00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:04.719 There are some amazing programs that schools that trust that local authorities are running just to enable parents to come together, to have a cup of tea, and to go, do you know what? 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:06.559 Yesterday was a bad day for me. 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.000 I couldn't even get them to put their suits and socks on. 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:13.199 And then for someone else to say, do you know what? 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:17.760 That happened to me last week, and this is what I did, and it was better this week for me. 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:27.679 And because when we spoke earlier about loneliness for children, let's not forget that this can be really lonely and isolating for the parents as well. 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:40.880 You know, if you have ever had a family member that has suffered from anxiety and depression, they're not the only one that that suffers from anxiety and depression, the whole family suffers with them in a different way. 00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:50.719 And it's the same with not going to school for whatever reason, it's not just the child that goes through that, it's the whole family that goes through that. 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:56.239 And so there is a there is a loneliness attached to that as well, and there is an isolation that is attached to that. 00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:01.920 And if you have somebody else that you can speak to to go, do you know what? 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.960 It was a bad day for me, for me yesterday. 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.840 Um, I found that really hard yesterday. 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:14.719 And and how how what do I what do I do to make it better for me tomorrow? 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:18.320 Because there has to be a level of kindness for yourself as well. 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:31.039 Yeah, do you know there really, really does, and you're right, you know, so many families, you know, I think kind of just feel like they're the only one experiencing this, and actually it's a big problem. 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:31.840 It really is. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:59.920 And I think you're right to kind of caution there around being careful with kind of what we access online, because there is a lot of scaremongering that goes on, there's a lot of kind of you know, sort of scapegoating and kind of blaming, you know, authorities or school or bob down the road, you know, um, rather than actually sometimes that kind of you know non-judgmental support just from one family to another. 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.519 Um, so thanks, Beth. 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.039 That was really insightful. 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:19.199 I'm thinking as well, maybe from the perspective of school, you know, maybe sometimes, again, going back to your idea of kind of thinking about the building, you know, maybe the first strategy is just changing how the door is opened with a parent or carer. 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:30.800 So maybe, you know, if our contact always leads with a percentage or a warning or a list of expectations, you know, again, maybe families might sometimes become a bit defensive. 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:38.719 So maybe opening with, you know, we've noticed things are difficult at the moment, you know, we really care about your child. 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:47.920 Um, and I think sometimes, you know, kind of going back to what you were saying about partnership working, just kind of reminding families that we've all got this common goal. 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:53.199 We all just want there to be a happy,

healthy, thriving child or young person. 00:39:53.760 --> 00:40:08.639 Um, so I guess sometimes that's kind of like one of the main bits, isn't it, that can kind of unite us as schools with the families, kind of just re-establishing, you know, why we're having these conversations, where that's coming from. 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:22.800 Um, have you had much success, you know, maybe with the schools that you worked with around kind of offering like one consistent trusted contact rather than multiple people kind of calling or contacting family? 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:32.000 Yeah, I think it's moved that way naturally anyway, you know, with every school having an attendance champion uh and with every school having a nominated member stuff. 00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:34.559 And I think that that does help. 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:53.119 I think you know, where um in in my previous school we had we called them family liaison because I think that that the language around the title is so important as well because it's not a tenants officer, because you're not you're not authoritarian, you're not there. 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:59.199 You are there to liaise and support, and you're there for the whole family, and I think that's important. 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:12.239 And where schools can have members of staff, and we always try to assign children and cases and families to a certain member of staff wherever possible. 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:14.639 But you know, again, let's be realistic. 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:25.280 In in small primary schools, you've got the head teacher who's also the Senko, who's also the DSL, who's also the attendance lead, who is doing a myriad of different hats. 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:30.320 Um you know, sometimes it is about going, this is a big job. 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:33.199 How do we share out that responsibility? 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:38.960 How do we create capacity within the framework that we have that is manageable? 00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:45.280 Because let's not let's not overstate as well that you know there are a finite number of staff in school. 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:52.719 And schools have staffing, you know, staffing pressures and workload pressures, and we have to be kind to the staff as well. 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:56.719 So whatever you do has to be manageable. 00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:05.360 You can't be taking on a hundred children and thinking that you're going to get anywhere because that's not manageable for the member of staff either. 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.159 Um, and schools are doing, you know, they're doing some great work. 00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:45.920 They're managing to um get in um counsellors, maybe one day a week or more in in some cases that can support um the child, but in some cases can also offer support sessions for the families, you know, where schools are joining up with uh outreach support um in the community, where they might be drawing on local expertise, where they're bringing in um volunteer mentors, etc., or or actually working with the local authority and looking at how those relationships can be forged and strengthened and how you can work together as well. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:57.920 Yeah, no, I think all of those things just sort of help to you know demonstrate that you know it's not kind of just one sort of organization's responsibility. 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:09.599 You know, they're you know that the buck kind of doesn't just kind of lie with school, there are other professionals out there that really form such an important part of this overall picture, don't they? 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:16.320 Um, and equally families too, you know, we're not expecting that a parent or carer would fix this alone. 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:20.159 It's it can be big and complex, can't it? 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:25.360 It can, and it's called working together guidance for a reason from the GFE, isn't it? 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:31.360 Because it is it, you know, it's about working together, um, but also owning your part in it. 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:52.480 And I think everybody has to be honest about their part in it, you know, and it can be a tough pill sometimes, you know, to have really quite difficult conversations where you know you have to sort of say as a school, you know, we can do ex, but we can't do ABC, and this is the reason why. 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:59.760 Um, and also to kind of be able to honestly say to a parent, you know, we really need you to do this and this because. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.159 Because you know that that's the that's the only way that we're going to be able to move this forward. 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:10.239 And again, it's not about blame or shifting responsibility in one direction or another. 00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:14.800 It is about, it has to be about that partnership and that working together. 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:38.400 And it all comes back to that very first child that I that I dealt with and worked with and the relationship that I had with that family and the the positivity that that that you know that they they went into that conversation with in terms of you know um it would have been so easy to kind for for a long time for them to go, do you know what? 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.199 Okay, that's fine, just don't go to school anymore. 00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:44.480 And and it and it would have made their life at home easier. 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:45.920 Um yeah, absolutely. 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.880 Um and we're gonna kind of try everything that we can possibly do. 00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:57.119 Yeah, I know it's true, it's true. 00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:02.880 And again, we mentioned the word honesty again, you know, being realistic with what we can offer. 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:13.199 And you know, what I really welcome, Beth, in terms of what you've said there in particular, is this is the reason why we can't do X, Y, Z. 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:29.760 Because, you know, I think

often we're sometimes assuming that parents or carers would just kind of know why, or um, you know, and I think having that, you know, kind of really can empower families to think, okay, well, if school can't do that, what can we be doing? 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:37.519 Where else could we potentially be getting the sorts of support that we believe our child might need? 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:43.519 Now, you mentioned DFE, which brings me beautifully on to my next question, if I may. 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.480 It's a big one. 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:45.360 Are you ready? 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:47.280 Yeah, I'm ready. 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.119 How do we balance them? 00:45:49.280 --> 00:46:03.039 That kind of legal and safeguarding importance with what we were saying earlier on in today's episode around the curiosity, the compassion, you know, kind of meeting the individual need, you know, how how does that look in practice? 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:28.000 That I mean, you have you do get to a point, don't you, where you think if um and there will always be some cases, and we we have to be honest about this, there will also always be some cases where um the parent in some respect has a responsibility and isn't owning that responsibility. 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:39.519 You know, um I have been out to houses and done home visits and knocked on the door and the child has answered the door, and I've you know just said, Oh, you know, are you not very why why are you not in today? 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.480 And the child has stood there and gone, I don't know why I'm not at school today. 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:43.360 Exactly. 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:50.559 You know, and and and that there then um leads to the question about the responsibility. 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:58.320 Um, and you know, I don't I think as parents, we want our children to be successful. 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:09.039 The vast, you know, 99.9% of us want our children to go on and be successful, and in most cases, have more than what we have managed to have or achieve in our lives. 00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:13.119 No parent wants their child to not be successful. 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:17.119 Um yeah, but with that comes a responsibility. 00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:32.239 And if the school has done everything that they could possibly do, and if the and if the local authority has been involved and they have done everything they can possibly do, and let's be honest about that as well, there is a limit to what a local authority can do. 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:38.960 You know, there is there are only so much um placements and resources and and options out there as well. 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:42.719 It's it's not an endless kind of um menu. 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:48.800 Um, and you know, medical um services and and mental health services and support services have done that. 00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.159 You do occasionally get families that don't engage. 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:54.239 That don't

that don't engage. 00:47:54.320 --> 00:48:05.519 And I think there has to be an element of there is the line, and and and when we get that line, we have to go in the best interest of the child. 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:23.199 We are not safeguarding that child, we are not safeguarding their future opportunities if we don't draw the line and say, now something has to be enforced, because ultimately, if you don't do that, as a society, we are letting that child down. 00:48:23.280 --> 00:49:12.159 We are saying that it's okay for you to not have a future, but you know, there children have rights, and one of their rights is access to education, and and if the parent is the barrier to that access to education, then the parent has has taken away their child's rights, and we do have to draw that line, and and so it's a difficult one to know when you've got to that point, um, and it it always has to be on a case-by-case basis, and it isn't a one-size-fits-all model, but there has to be there has to be a line at some point because um, you know, we have to we have to enable that child to have the future that they could potentially have. 00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:20.000 Um and you know, we know that what the outcomes could be if that if that doesn't happen as well. 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:21.199 Yeah, absolutely. 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:21.840 And do you know what? 00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:31.840 I'm so glad you've named that, because you know, when we're being compassionate, we're being trauma-informed, you know, it doesn't mean avoiding accountability. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.440 You know, like you've said, you know, children do have that right to education for a reason. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:48.719 And you know, there may well be times when we do find ourselves in those difficult situations where you know we do have to draw that line and say, actually, this isn't good. 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:52.639 You know, it really isn't in the best interests of the child. 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:56.639 So thank you so much, Beth, for speaking so beautifully about that. 00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:04.960 So let's imagine then you know, we're working with a young person who is struggling to attend school tomorrow. 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:11.039 Um, what would the first things be that we'd be wanting a school to do in that situation? 00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:15.599 I mean, that that is the the million-dollar question, isn't it? 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:18.079 I think it is, it absolutely is. 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:21.920 I think you, you know, you have to have your processes and policies in place. 00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:39.519 You know, you have to have your um your first day calling, you have to have your text message, and you have to establish, first of all, what the reason is because you know, we have a legal duty to maintain and register, uh, and we have a legal responsibility to do safe and well checks if we haven't seen a child for a number of days. 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:47.360 Um, and you know, in most cases, it's a simple conversation of okay, they're not feeling very well, okay, absolutely. 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:51.519 So then you can have that conversation of, well, if they feel better later, they could come into this afternoon. 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.039 But I absolutely understand. 00:50:53.440 --> 00:51:00.320 You know, if if it is a temperature, you know, we do have Cal Polyn school, we'd love to have them back in, and we can we can work that out with you. 00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:06.320 Having those conversations in the vast majority of cases will resolve whatever is is going on. 00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:09.199 And sometimes, you know, there's so much information out there as well. 00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:15.920 Parents don't necessarily always know when what I can send my children in with, what what when do I need to keep them at home? 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:19.920 And again, schools have got some really good guidance that is out there. 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:28.320 Um public health have got some really good guidance about when you should put your child up and when and when they should stay, when they should go into school, etc. 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:39.039 Um, but I think it the minute that a school notices a pattern, yeah, that first contact has to be the right contact. 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:45.840 And as you said, it has to not be, you know, going in there with loads of data, you know, or they've had three days off, what's going on? 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:47.840 It doesn't, it needs to not be that. 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.679 It needs to be, look, really missed Joe. 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:55.519 Um, you know, is is is the is he is he unwell? 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:57.440 Is there something that we can help with? 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:02.079 And just, you know, and then actually following that up with, are you okay? 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:03.519 Is there something that you need? 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:07.199 You know, you know, is there something that we can support you with? 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:15.119 And and in some cases the answer is no, everything's absolutely fine, that's fine, but you've opened the door and you've made it less scary. 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:25.599 And then if, you know, sometimes the parent might go away and think about it and come back to you and say, actually, you know, when you ask that question, or or or you know, they could they come to school the next day. 00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:25.840 Yeah. 00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:48.559 But I think um we have that responsibility again as schools, as professionals, to be making sure that we are safeguarding our children, that we are doing the safe and well checks, that we are doing the first day calling, that we know the reasoning behind, and then balance that with the offer of do we need to have a good, can we have a conversation? 00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:50.159 How can we help? 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:53.360 Um, is there anything that we

can do? 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.960 Um, and it's that again, it comes back to exactly what you said earlier. 00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:58.400 It's about that notice. 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:00.320 What have we noticed? 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:07.840 And and actually then having conversations with key members of staff in the school, you know, is there something going on in SEND? 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:10.400 Is there, you know, has the SEN co picked anything up? 00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:12.079 What has the class teacher noticed? 00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.440 Have we noticed anything about has there been a change in behavior? 00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:18.960 Has there been a change in um what they're eating at lunchtime? 00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:20.239 All of those kinds of things. 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:21.840 Has there been a friendship shift? 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.400 Are they struggling in certain subjects? 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:29.840 All of that is information that just adds to the puzzle. 00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.280 Um, and that's where you start once you start to bring pieces together. 00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:39.039 But it has to come from keep going back to this, the parent and the child voice. 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:41.039 You you have to have that. 00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:43.280 That has to sit at the center. 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.880 Yeah, it really does. 00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:49.119 And I think you know, without that, we don't really have anything to build on, do we? 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:51.760 You know, that's the the difficult thing. 00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:00.800 I wonder whether before we kind of think about bringing today's episode to a close, if we can just touch a little bit on kind of leadership for a moment. 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:15.039 I'm just kind of curious about, you know, and you're very right what you say about parents, about carers, about, you know, really thinking about, you know, all members of staff across school and what information and clues they might have about something. 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:23.920 I'm also thinking about how as senior leaders we might create a culture in school that sort of organically improves attendance. 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:35.440 Any kind of thoughts there on, you know, maybe any great practice that you've seen when you've been out and about, or things that you know you would just love to see in other schools happening? 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:38.559 Yeah, I mean, the culture is that thing, isn't it? 00:54:38.800 --> 00:55:02.239 It has to permeate the minute you walk into a door of a school, um, you can tell whether or not the school has got that culture of belonging and attendance and that feeling of um it's something that you can't quantify, really. 00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:12.400 And I think I I have walked around some absolutely amazing schools um in the past 12 months in Birmingham that absolutely have that. 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:17.920 But when you walk around a building, there

is this lightness. 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:38.239 Um, and you walk into a room and you can't tell which child is sent, which child is a child in care, which child, yeah, you know, which child um has had a bad morning, which child um, you know, uh is just needs a little bit of, you know, which child has got an attendance problem, you can't tell because the support is there for every child. 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.239 And it comes back to that inclusion, doesn't it? 00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:48.320 But I think as as SLT as senior leaders, understanding what that job is is so important. 00:55:48.719 --> 00:56:21.840 I I I don't take away from anybody that works in any role in schools, but I genuinely believe that working on attendance is one of the hardest jobs there is, genuinely, and I think that it's quite often given to the newest member of SLT like I was, or it's it's it's given to a member of the pastoral team, but it is relentless because every day you are effectively starting from scratch again, and it's like Groundhog Day, and some days you will have good days and you won't know why, and some days you'll have bad days and you you won't know why. 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:28.000 And I think that I genuinely believe that every member of SLT should be trained in attendance. 00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:29.440 Oh, yeah, genuinely. 00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:39.840 And you know, and it's great to have someone, you know, like I was that had done it for seven, eight years and and has really become an expert on it. 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:46.880 But if that member of staff ever walks out the door and goes somewhere else, what do you have behind that? 00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:49.679 How how easily can someone pick that up? 00:56:49.920 --> 00:57:01.519 Um, so you know, having everybody do um a stint in that, I genuinely believe that every member of SLT should know how to fill in for the attendance officer and do the register check. 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.880 Um, absolutely. 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:04.559 Yeah. 00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:13.199 Um and I think every member of SLT should have direct access to attendance data and should know how to use that data. 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:18.880 I think it should be a standing item on every SLT agenda every week, 100%. 00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:56.400 But also there should be a responsibility of every member of staff in that building, and everybody should really know what that is, from the caretaker who knows that is, you know, it might be that he's he just says hello to the kid that turns up early on the playground every day because you know that that's the only time that the parent has been able to drop them off to the form tutor who just notices, hang on a minute, I haven't seen them for three Thursdays in a row, that then knows I've got a responsibility to have that conversation or to pass that on, or to to the next time that they walk through the door to go, I really missed you yesterday, because that's that's the thing that they can do. 00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:57.599 I really missed you yesterday. 00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:01.519 Oh, and by the way, did you watch that programme that I know that you watch on telly that I also watched? 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:04.800 Actually, you know, that that was that exactly, yeah. 00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:06.239 Um it's true. 00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:06.800 It's true. 00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:19.440 Yeah, and in SLT, it not being that when you sit in the SLT meeting, you go, right, let's talk about attendance, talk about what we're doing about it, and turns to the attendance lead because it needs to be right, what are we doing about it? 00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:25.280 And you know, if we've got responsibility for different year groups, do we know what that looks like? 00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:27.760 And and what how are we supporting with that? 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:37.440 Because, and and if if I go as far as the head teacher, let's be honest, your head teacher absolutely should be a critical friend in this scenario. 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:40.960 So they should be the person that is challenging and going, right, what can we do? 00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:42.800 How can we how can we progress this? 00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:44.559 How can we take this to the next level? 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:49.760 But also is then saying, Do I know enough about this? 00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:58.559 And and I've had the joy of having a head teacher that was as passionate about attendance as me and knew the data as as well as me. 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:13.039 Um, and you know, would would would go have have meetings with parents and and would would have them in and have those conversations and would sit down with you know year tens, year 11s and say, well, what are we going to do about this, guys? 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:17.280 Because you know, you know, you clearly need some support here, so how can we help you with that? 00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:27.519 And and it has to be everybody, and there is a again, there's a reason why in the guidance it says attendance is everybody's responsibility, because it really is truly is, it truly is. 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:29.199 Yeah, it really is. 00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:33.199 And again, you're making me think of another wonderful school I worked in. 00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:54.559 Um, and you know, again, you know, when I say it, it kind of sounds like common sense, you know, it's there's nothing rocket science that they were doing, but what they were doing, Beth, was getting those basics right, like the welcoming by name, the fact that every child had at least two trusted adults available before difficulties reached crisis points. 00:59:54.800 --> 01:00:04.880 Um, families were approached as soon as somebody felt that something was off, but it was contacting with concern, they weren't being accused of anything. 01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:27.679 School had really clear expectations, but the bit that you'll love is that they literally

tied attendance to absolutely everything to relationships, end, the curriculum, pastoral care, um, you know, kind of really knowing whether each child felt that they genuinely mattered in that building, as you said. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:38.960 Um, and you know, I think it's it's difficult, but if we can all kind of try to sort of work towards that as best as we can, but I think most importantly trusting our guts. 01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:40.639 That's what it comes back to, isn't it? 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:44.960 Kind of not delaying when we know something's just isn't right here. 01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:56.559 You know, it could be something very simple that we can fix at that point, whereas in a few weeks or a month's time when things are more entrenched, sometimes we're making our lives even harder, aren't we? 01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:01.199 By not kind of jumping in there with our facts as soon as we can. 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:04.880 Yeah, it's uh you know, I absolutely do love that. 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:08.159 I I I just think that is it's is that, isn't it? 01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:18.159 It comes back to we can either dip our toe in the in the shallow end when we first notice it, or we're gonna have to jump into the deep end and it's and then it becomes a bigger, a bigger fish to fry. 01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:25.840 But I absolutely love that you know, there are schools that are doing some absolutely amazing, incredible stuff. 01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.400 And I don't think they give themselves enough credit for it either. 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:30.800 You know, I really don't. 01:01:31.039 --> 01:02:00.719 You know, you well, you go to schools and you just feel it from the moment that you walk in, and those that have kind of got it really, really embedded and threaded through everything they do, so it just becomes part of the vernacular and part of the language, and the children they also know as let's let's just just for one second, just think as well, that it's important that that the children understand it as well, so important, and that they understand what that means for them. 01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:26.480 And um, you know, there is there is some amazing schools out there that are teaching attendance and teaching it as part of the curriculum and getting children to understand and take ownership of it um at all levels and and really kind of embedding it and linking it to, you know, opportunities and careers on every level, and not just, you know, oh, if you want to be a doctor, you've got to come every day. 01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:38.800 But you know, if you want to be a self-employed uh hairdresser, you're going to have to turn up every day because that's the only way that you're, you know, you don't get you don't get sick days unless you've saved up for it. 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:44.800 So I think that that conversation is so key as well for children. 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:58.480 And quite often, um, you know, we talk about behavior being communication, uh, and children don't necessarily understand that they're communicating through their behavior, attendance is communication as well. 01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:12.880 And children sometimes don't understand that they're communicating through their attendance, um, and and again, it's that it comes back to they have rights and they have an ownership over themselves and their identity. 01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:25.920 And when you give them the information about their attendance and the attendance of, you know, in that broader picture, that helps them to understand a little bit more about themselves. 01:03:26.079 --> 01:03:40.000 And then again, when you have that conversation with the child about their voice, maybe then they can explain it because they've had time to think about it and internally kind of come to an understanding with themselves. 01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:45.360 Whereas if it just comes out of nowhere and you sit there and go, right, you're not attending, what's going on? 01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:48.800 Your immediate reaction is I don't know, nothing. 01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:49.840 I'm okay, I'm fine. 01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:51.119 I'm all right. 01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:52.320 Yeah, absolutely. 01:03:53.119 --> 01:04:00.639 Um, so I yeah, I think that when you see that in schools, that is like it's like the gold dust. 01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.440 It is, yeah, that's the real magic. 01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:04.880 It really, really is. 01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:19.519 So if we were to pocket up that gold dust, I wonder if there was just one thing that you'd want every listener to kind of take away from our lovely conversation that we've had together today. 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:23.599 If there was something that they would do differently tomorrow, what would it be? 01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:28.880 That is the probably the most difficult question that you've asked me to do. 01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:30.000 It's so hard. 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:31.199 It's so hard. 01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:36.159 And you know what, it might be that you're thinking, oh, actually, there's there's a couple of ideas I've got. 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:37.920 Don't feel limited to one. 01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.000 Um, I don't mind going first. 01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:45.039 I think for me it would be shipping things back to being human again. 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:54.159 You know, I think for me, kind of, you know, the lovely ideas that you had around trying to work out, you know, whether we've got common interests with the children. 01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:57.599 And if we don't, who does on the staff body? 01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:14.000 I think that would be a really, really kind of healthy challenge that we could all kind of embark on over the next half term or so, you know, even if we kind of challenge ourselves with just learning something else about one child, you know, it's a starting point, isn't it? 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:30.880 I do know I was gonna say kindness because I was gonna say, you know, being kind to yourself and being kind in the situations that you go into with regards to um this. 01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:35.760 Um, I think that is, and and that and that comes for everybody, really. 01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:48.159 That comes whether you are a member of school staff, whether you're a member of a local authority, whether you're the parent, whether you're the child, being kind to yourself and being kind to other people in these conversations. 01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:53.119 Um, and then I think the second thing is is the conversation. 01:05:53.360 --> 01:06:09.599 Yeah, it's you know, it it is and and again it's that, it's what you just said about having a conversation with a child about anything, no matter what it is, but making sure that that you know something, that somebody in that building knows something about every child. 01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:23.679 I think if if as a school you can confidently say that there is a member of staff in this building that knows the story behind every child, then you've got you've pocketed that gold dust. 01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:34.639 But I think that, and then you flip that and it becomes the conversation that you have with the parent, or you flip it again and it becomes the conversation the parent has with the school, or the conversation the parent has with the child. 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:50.079 So I think those two things being kind and really thinking about conversation and the language around conversation are the two things that I would put in my little pocket of gold dust. 01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:51.920 I love that so much. 01:06:53.519 --> 01:07:12.559 And yeah, just Beth, thank you so so much for you know, a giving up your time to kind of chat with us all today via me, um, and just equally for just all of your experience and gifts that you've kind of permeated throughout the whole conversation for us today. 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:16.480 It's been a real joy, and I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:18.559 I have absolutely loved it. 01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:30.960 Um, you know, I absolutely adore everything in the world of inclusion and the world of belonging and attendance, and it is a joy to be asked to kind of come and have a conversation with you today. 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:31.760 So thank you. 01:07:32.079 --> 01:07:33.760 Oh, you're so welcome there. 01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:41.920 Thank you so much for joining us. 01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:45.920 To learn more, visit the Trauma Informed Consultancy Services website. 01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:47.679 We'll see you next time.