رونوشت کامل S01 E15 - Gruff and Transactional

relationship with the Indiana Jones franchise? 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:53.759 Presumably you're a fan if you've read a bunch of spin-off media. 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.240 Oh yeah, I've I've loved Indie basically as long as I've loved Star Wars. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:03.759 You know, early 80s, I saw Raiders of the Lost Ark on VHS from the local video store. 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:05.120 I thought that's fantastic. 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.680 You know, it was almost as good as Star Wars for me. 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:13.120 Then by the time Temple of Doom came around, I was nine years old, so I got taken to see that at the cinema. 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:16.240 And I thought it was pretty good, although I still liked Raiders more. 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:23.520 Then 89 came, I saw Last Crusade at the cinema with my mates, because I was 14 by now, we were going to the cinema on our own, you know, wacky do. 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.319 And I just thought that was fantastic. 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:39.680 And then that paved the way for a 1990s where we not only had the young Indiana Jones TV series, which I adored, and I will fight anyone over if they don't like it, but we had Indiana Jones comics. 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.120 I mean, we had those in the 80s too, but we had Dark Horse doing them in the 90s. 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:48.639 We had computer games, and we had this series of novels that we're going to discuss tonight. 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.680 So that's my rough history with the franchise. 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:52.319 Amazing. 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.280 Yeah, so I I'm a big fan of the original three. 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.280 They played a huge part in my childhood. 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.800 I would say at least one of them gets put on once a year for me. 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.479 It's just, it's it's a go-to when I'm like, I'm not sure what I want to watch. 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:05.759 It's a Sunday afternoon. 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.439 I want something comforting, and so an Indiana Jones will do. 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.400 I have some positives about the two more recent films. 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:19.360 I say two more recent, one of them's 20 years old by now, but that it's mainly just seeing the character again. 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.160 The rest of them don't work as well for me. 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:33.360 And then sort of spin-off-wise, I have some memories of the young Indiana Jones, but I I hate to say, Rob, I didn't like it as a kid, but who knows, maybe if I jump back into it now, I would find much to enjoy. 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:38.079 But I've never read any Indiana Jones books, comics, anything like that. 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:45.519 So I am coming to this podcast completely fresh to get your take on uh this book range. 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:46.639 Ah, excellent. 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:51.439 This was really one of the first spin-off mediums I really came across. 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.959 You know, it's probably this in Star Wars in the 90s that really kicked things off. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:04.959 I mean, there were spin-offs before this for me, but this is really where I I sort of sat down and went, oh my god, you can tell stories in these universes I like? 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:05.839 Wow. 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:06.720 You know? 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:08.639 So yeah, it's fun times. 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:13.680 Yeah, like I think my in to general spin-off media was of course Doctor Who. 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:20.879 But I remember going on holiday as a kid and getting to the airport and seeing a Star Wars book that was a new Star Wars story. 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:31.439 And that that was my first sort of in of like, oh my god, everybody's got these sort of I wouldn't have called it an expanded universe there, but everybody's got these extra bits. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:38.399 And so, and doing this podcast, it's wild the stuff that exists out there, and also how much of it there is. 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:43.279 Like with these Indiana Jones books, as you say, we're talking about 13 books. 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:50.480 And I just don't think if the franchise launched today, you'd suddenly get 13 books about the film series. 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:59.839 No, well, when they came back with one in 2009, I thought this is going to s kickstart a little series at least, and it kickstarted nothing. 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:00.240 Right. 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.240 So I think you're quite right in that. 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:09.439 But look, Dylan, being slightly older than you, I remember a spin-off Star Wars book before the Extended Universe began. 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:10.160 Oh, really? 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:11.439 Yeah. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:22.639 When I was very, very young in infant school in the early 80s, our library had Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which was the first spin-off novel for Star Wars. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:29.600 And it had this really cool cover with Darth Vader, and he's standing in this misty forest, and there's Luke and Leia on the ground in front of him. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:31.279 They're sort of recoiling with fear. 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:36.560 And we'd always pull it out and try to imagine what the story was about because none of us had actually read it. 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:38.160 We were too young to read it. 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:54.720 But we would look at it, and so I was aware of these things existing, and it was probably Star Wars comic books from Marvel in the 80s that was my first in into spin-off media that weren't novels, I guess, uh, because comic books were easier to read when you're a young kid. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:56.319 And that's how I got into them, yeah. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:57.120 Amazing. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:02.000 So, what made you want to explore this book range this time around? 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:08.959 I think, I mean, it's a range I never

hear people talk about like ever. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:15.680 You know, sometimes you find the odd YouTube video about it where some guy 15 years ago on YouTube talked about one of the novels. 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:27.759 But actually in my friends' group, like I I don't even have a lot of Indiana Jones fans in that group, let alone people who have gone out and read a novel, let alone have gone out and read all 13 of the novels. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:37.920 So I thought this could be a topic where, you know, you you've done other topics where I sit at home thinking, oh, I would have loved to have done that topic with Dylan, like X-Files was one of them, for example. 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.160 But a lot of people can do X-Files. 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.360 But this one I thought, I'm not sure anyone will ever do it. 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.120 So damn it, it's gonna be me. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:46.560 That's why I picked it. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:54.879 No, and when and when you said it, like I I sort of bit your hand off in that respect because it's not a franchise that somebody else has has mentioned doing. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:00.000 And also it's this thing that like Indiana Jones is a popular franchise, but it's weird. 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:09.199 It just it just doesn't feel like it's expanded media has the same sort of reach as a lot of other franchises, expanded media does, as you say. 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:17.360 Yeah, it's an interesting one because the movies, well, the first three well, all actually all of the movies did reasonably well, but the first three are obviously big ten call movies. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:26.800 And yet the the the audience just didn't seem to click as much with spin-off media as maybe other franchises did. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:27.839 Yeah. 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:28.800 It's interesting. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.879 Maybe it's a an older audience, maybe it's a more conservative audience. 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.039 They like that the 1930s-40s shtick, and that doesn't convert to reading comic books about it or novels. 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:39.519 I don't know. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.759 Yeah, it's it's it's an odd one. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:48.559 So within this series of books, are they true to the character of Indy from the film series? 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:53.919 That's really hard to answer because some are and some aren't. 00:08:54.879 --> 00:09:00.399 And look, to some degree, that probably comes down to how into the character someone might be. 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:06.960 You know, there there are novels in this range where I'm reading it going, no, no, no, this this feels all kinds of wrong. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:08.159 This is an indie. 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:20.480 Whereas I can imagine someone not as invested in the character, or if I can just put it like this, who is just easier to please, might read the same thing and be like, what are you talking about? 00:09:20.639

--> 00:09:31.120 I'm reading about an American, he's in a brown leather jacket and a hat, it's the 1930s, he said a quippy line, a lady wants to have sex with him, he's looking into an historical mystery. 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:34.320 This is the most Indiana Jones thing that ever indied Rob. 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:36.080 You know, what are you talking about? 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:43.039 So I think the perception of the character probably plays into that, but for me, some of these aren't true to the character at all. 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:44.799 Okay, that's interesting. 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.840 I guess that sort of depends on who's writing it, right? 00:09:48.159 --> 00:10:04.639 It does, you know, because I think those type of people who are very easy to please would be hard-pressed when they get to a novel we're jumping ahead a bit by Martin Caden called Sky Pirates, where Indy is this very cold, sort of homesian genius. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:10.960 He he's not the happy-go-lucky guy, make it up as you go along, seat of the pants guy that we know him from in the movies. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.840 That book is an absolute shocker for characterisation and a lot of other things. 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:22.320 Or there's another novel, The White Witch, where Indy's driving a car with this woman and they need to escape across a river. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.559 So she freezes it with magic. 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:30.080 And they just drive across the ice, and you're left wondering, what the actual fuck? 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:31.200 You know? 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:36.080 And not just because of the use of the magic, but the way Indy goes along with it. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:37.039 Oh, you did magic? 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:37.840 Yeah, cool. 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:49.600 Because although the Indie movies, if I can go on, have far-fetched things in them: people melting, people having their hearts plucked out, immortality if you drink from the the holy grail, whatever. 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:54.480 There is that invisible line where weird stuff can't happen in day-to-day life. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:00.480 Like Indy can be on an island away from civilization and the wrath of God zaps some Nazis. 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:02.080 Okay, fine, that's great. 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:06.399 But if that same thing happened in Times Square, it would seem ridiculous, right? 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:13.759 So, you know, when this witch freezes this river in an otherwise mundane English village for him to drive the car over. 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.279 I I just think just about anyone would call bullshit on that, really. 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:19.200 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:27.120 Because you you're right, the sort of mysticism that happens in the films is that big climax thing of like it's all been leading there. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:30.559 But they it's not a problem-solving device, is it? 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:37.440 That it's it's very much a resolution and things are at their most desperate w w when you get to that sort of stuff. 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:42.320 So yeah, I I think I would bump with Indy and a river-free witch. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.919 Yeah, and look, there are smaller things in the books too. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:12:01.759 Like when I was doing some notes for this, I was reminded he's set up in the first of these novels as a kid who's just done his first degree in the US, now he's at the Sorbonne doing his second degree, and he wants to be wait for it, a linguist. 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:06.000 And that just feels wrong on multiple levels. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:12.879 Even a casual fan, I think, would read that and go, huh, I thought by the time he was on to his second degree, he'd at least be doing archaeology. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:13.279 Yeah. 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.720 And for people who have watched the young indie TV series, he decides to be an archaeologist while he's still in his teen years. 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:29.519 So when the books begin, it's a bit weird for people who are into the character, again, who are into the character, you're reading this and you're thinking, why? 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.279 You know, why does he want to do this? 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:37.120 I guess it's so he has this first adventure, and then at the end of it, he's like, oh, why do I want to be a linguist? 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.440 I think archaeology is great, you know, because he's had this big archaeological adventure. 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:43.440 It doesn't need to be there, though. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.919 So when you read that first novel, even small stuff like that sort of niggles at you. 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:48.480 Right. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:49.679 Okay, that's interesting. 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:56.639 So it's not necessarily in keeping with the continuity of things like the Young Indiana Jones TV series. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:05.120 No, and look, to some degree I think that's because they were probably at the very start of the novels being written concurrently with the TV show. 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.279 So maybe they didn't have all the answers. 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:07.919 Right. 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:18.639 You know, there there's one where he sees a tank and he reacts in a very strange way to that if you take into account in the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, he's fought in World War I and he's seen many tanks. 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:18.879 Right. 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:25.759 You know, so that moment in the novels is like, oh, that doesn't gel, but it was probably just written before the Chronicles episode came out. 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:34.879 And we're in a world where there's less brand management, I guess, because now you would have somebody going, well, that contradicts that, and we can't do that because we're doing it on the television. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.480 But at the time, these things are

just sort of separate entities, I guess. 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.960 Uh, we'll get to my thoughts on the editors of this range later on. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:44.159 Excellent. 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:47.120 So, where do the books take the character? 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:48.159 It's interesting. 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.679 The books don't always take you where you think the character or an Indiana Jones story might go. 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.000 You know, some go totally off-piste. 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.039 I I just mentioned the Sky Pirates, for example. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:09.919 And that has Indy working with the US government, and he's requisitioning prototype aircraft and having this big adventure, and he's sort of like an American James Bond. 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:10.720 Right. 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:12.799 You know, that's weird. 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.919 Others, though, are right in the indie wheelhouse. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:22.240 So again, some of these novels feel totally indie, but some of them are just bizarre and a bit shit. 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:22.799 Yeah. 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.000 That's the best way I can say it. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.799 I mean, such is the want of spin-off media, right? 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:29.200 Yeah. 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:36.159 Oh, look, I think one interesting thing people wouldn't know is they do give Indy a wife in a couple of months. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:36.799 Okay. 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.639 I won't go into huge detail. 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:44.480 It's kind of icky looking back from 2026 because she is one of his students in this novel. 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:50.399 Because he's he's got his second degree now and he's he's now a professor, he's like in his late 20s. 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.759 And I guess they don't want to have Indy married for too long. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:59.840 So it just sort of comes and goes across a couple of novels in the series, and you think, oh, well, what was the point of that? 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.279 When you look back, I guess what they're trying to do. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.159 I mean, I've never read articles about this or interviews. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:27.279 I guess what they wanted to do is damage the character in his late twenties so that when we get to the indie in the movies, who's a more cynical sort of guy, he's very gruff, he can be a bit transactional with women, they can sort of bridge that between the younger, happier, even romantic indie of the early novels, or particularly the young Indiana Jones TV series. 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.480 There is a disconnect. 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:37.679 So I think by having a wife for a couple of novels and then losing her in a particular way is what makes Indy indie in his 30s. 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:39.200 Okay, interesting. 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:48.399 Yeah, I don't especially because even where we find him in the final film, which I know was way after

this, I somehow just don't picture him ever settled down, you know? 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:49.200 Yeah. 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:54.480 Maybe he gets his happy ending eventually, but yeah, I don't see him suddenly getting married, and as you say. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:07.360 I mean, it's probably true to the era the things are set in that he would marry a younger woman that was perhaps his student, even if we do look at it through a sort of modern lens and go, that's a bit icky, as you say. 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.159 Yeah, oh look, it was the 1920s, Dylan. 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:11.200 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.480 These things happen. 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:13.440 What else? 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:24.159 They also have to tread a bit of a fine line in the novels, with Indy not being so much a man of science, but he certainly doesn't believe in the supernatural and things like that. 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:30.480 You know, for for the ex-Wiles fans out there, he he's not quite Dana Scully, but he's certainly not Fox Mulder. 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:40.159 And I think this is tricky enough in the films where all these fantastical things happen, and he still has to stay on that slightly non-believery path, even though these things have happened. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:40.720 Yeah. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:53.279 And that gets ratcheted up a lot in the books because he'll start having conversations with people from mythology or seeing mythological creatures or basically encountering really weird shit, which is clearly real. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:58.320 But he has to remain that kind of, oh yeah, this is just nonsense and laconic kind of guy. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.960 You know, that stretches belief at times. 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:01.279 Yeah. 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.840 Where in Indy's timeline does this take place? 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:05.920 It's a fair spread of time. 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:11.680 The first one, which is called Peril at Delphi, is set in 1922. 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.079 So he's a 23-year-old bear. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.839 That's where he's studying at the Sorbonne for his linguist degree and all of this. 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:26.319 So he's different to the teenager of the young Indiana Jones Chronicles, uh, who's just angling towards going to college for the first time and all of that. 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:31.839 And I'm pretty sure he does sex with a lady in that novel to reinforce he's all grown up. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:36.319 Although that said, I think he porked Matahari in the Young Indie show when he was about 16. 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.839 So, you know, he uh he got his rocks off early. 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:48.480 Uh so we start fairly youngish, and then there's a further, I guess, 11 novels between 1925 and 1934. 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.480 So he's 26 to 35 in those, and I can say that with authority. 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:59.839 His age is very easy to work out because he was born in 1899, so you just uh add one to whatever the 1900 date is. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:16.880 It's a pretty useful spread of time where, you know, he can be Indiana Jones without being the Indiana Jones of the films, because chronologically, Temple of Doom happens next in 35, then Raiders of the Lost Ark in 36, because yes, Temple of Doom is a prequel. 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.680 Then Last Crusade happens in 38. 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:27.279 So basically the whole series of original Bantam books happens before the first three movies happen. 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:27.759 Right. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:39.599 And then the one other book from ten years after that, which was by Delray, the publisher Delray, Army of the Dead, is set after the first three films, and that's in 1943. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:48.960 So that gives us a World War II indie, the kind that was sort of hinted about during the Crystal Skulls movie, where they're talking about, oh yeah, he was a legend in World War II. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.519 You know, up until that last abomination of the film that gave us a whole sequence in World War II. 00:18:53.599 --> 00:19:01.839 But before that, if you wanted to read about Indy and World War II, that final 13th novel, it even has Mac from Crystal Skulls in it. 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:02.480 Right. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.000 Yeah, Army of the Dead. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:04.880 That was the shit. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:06.000 That was the one to read. 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:07.039 Right, okay. 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:17.039 So you mentioned the the sort of link in there to Crystal Skulls, but throughout the books, are there other familiar characters, locations, themes, plot points from the films? 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.200 There are, but it's not particularly over the top. 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:30.559 I mean, Marcus Brody pops up across many of the books, usually as a kind of get out of jail free card for Indy. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.079 Like, oh, I'm stuck overseas, let's call Marcus at the museum. 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:40.240 He'll wire me some money, or you know, he'll he'll he'll help with the government and get me out of this problem, that sort of thing. 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:40.880 Right. 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:48.400 Sullah pops up in the novel Secret of the Sphinx, which I guess is appropriate given he's from that neck of the woods in Egypt. 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:54.960 MacHale, I mentioned a moment ago, he's in Army of the Dead, and he was a really interesting character in Crystal Skulls. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:02.319 You know, you couldn't quite get a read on him because he sort of portrays Indy, but he and Indy are mates, and it's like, I don't have a read on this guy. 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:07.039 So it's it's fun to actually read a wartime story with him and Indy getting the job done. 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:08.160 That's kind of fun. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:22.559 Hollow Earth has a wonderful scenery chewing

Renee Belloc sequence that happens in New Orleans, and the novel Dinosaur Eggs is bookended with a sort of a mini adventure with Belloch. 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:29.519 And I think Bellock's a great character, so revisiting him before he gets zapped in Raiders of the Lost Ark is quite cool. 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:39.200 But yeah, on the whole, there's not a lot of returning characters or themes, you know, as as the novels, again, aside from Army of the Dead, are all set before the movies. 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:39.680 Yeah. 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.960 So a lot of stuff hasn't happened yet in order to sort of easily reference or have those people in it. 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.480 They actually invent some new characters to get around this. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:48.960 Okay. 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:56.240 Like Indy has a good college friend who continues on through a number of the novels called Jack Shannon. 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:06.240 Oh, and we also do get a setup for Temple of Doom in Secret of the Sphinx, which is fun because Secret of the Sphinx is set the year before Temple of Doom. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:14.880 And Marcus is talking to Indy, and he casually mentions the ashes of New Hachi to Indy, which is what kicks off the start of Temple of Doom. 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.079 Indy's trying to get the urn with the ashes of New Hachi in it. 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:18.480 Right. 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.079 So uh there's sort of a hat tip to that in that note. 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.559 And I'm sure there are other winks and nods along the way. 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:30.559 I'm sure I remember there being them as I went through like little Easter eggs, but I haven't committed them all to memory. 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:37.920 Do the different authors bring different takes on the characters and his adventures? 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:39.200 Oh yeah. 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:42.480 Uh Massively, massively, massively. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:50.799 There are three different authors who look after the Bantam run of books, and then the Army of the Dead, which again came a decade later, is by a fourth guy. 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.839 So first up, we've got Rob McGregor, who does the first six. 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.319 And he is a decent writer. 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.680 He's very easy to understand. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.319 Stand, the words just zip along. 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:07.839 For Doctor Who fans, he's sort of like Terence Dix in some ways. 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.799 And his books on the whole are decent. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:11.920 They're average. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:26.799 They have they they do have interesting ideas most of the time, but he also goes off on weird flights of fancy here and there, which makes his work a bit hard to judge because he has these big ideas, which an author should always want to have, you know. 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.680 And he tries to tie it into real-world stuff. 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:34.319 Like he'll try and tie something into the statues on Easter Island, which are real things. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.559 You can go to Easter Island and see these things. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.839 But then he'll sprinkle in some weird stuff that definitely doesn't exist, definitely never happened. 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:46.319 And you're often left like, oh, this kind of works, but it kind of doesn't. 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.160 You know, I'm not sure why you need it to go so weird there, Rob. 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.759 Just looking up his work, he's done a lot of tie-in media. 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:54.400 Yes. 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.480 Feels like he's a good fit for the range. 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:02.400 And outside of that, he's done a lot of what looks like adventure and sort of treasure hunting novels. 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.039 So he feels like the perfect choice. 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:06.160 Oh, definitely. 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:13.440 And what got him into the range, I mean, the first time I read a Rob McGregor book, was he novelised Last Crusade. 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.000 Right. 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:19.039 And I had I read that, you know, two or three years before these novels started coming out. 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:20.720 And so I sort of knew Rob McGregor. 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:26.079 Oh, he's the guy who wrote that indie adaptation, which, you know, some people might call a spin-off. 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.960 I wouldn't, because it's not a spin-off, it was just an adaptation. 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.240 But that's how he got involved with indie. 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.240 And so yeah, I had some sort of background with him early on. 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:38.319 Who's the next one? 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:45.680 Then we have Martin Caden, who does two novels, and he is just a disaster. 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:55.759 One of his books, which I'll talk about later, doesn't even feel like it was originally written as an Indiana Jones story. 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:17.039 To be charitable about his stuff, it reminds me in some ways of the Aubrey and Matcharin novels by Patrick O'Brien, stuff like Master and Commander and the other 20 odd novels that Patrick O'Brien wrote, where O'Brien always goes into insane detail about sailing ships in the Napoleonic era. 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:27.440 The difference, though, is besides O'Brien being a really good author, I guess, you also open one of those novels wanting to hear about sailing ships, because you probably have an interest in that. 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:38.799 But you don't open an Indiana Jones novel expecting to be hit over the head repeatedly with aviation information on almost every page because that's Caden's big thing. 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:47.599 The first Caden novel is probably the worst for it, but even the second one opens with Indy absolutely intensely interested in becoming a pilot. 00:24:47.920 -->

00:24:52.880 So Caden has him in a plane with his girlfriend, and his girlfriend's the instructor. 00:24:53.200 --> 00:25:04.640 But the idea goes absolutely nowhere, and Indy doesn't do any more training as a pilot, nor does having piloting skills come back, like Chekhov's gun style later in the story. 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:10.319 It's just there because aviation and Martin Caden is just this nut for aviation. 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.680 I could go on and on about him, and I will talk about one of his stories later. 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.559 I'll just say his stuff goes from A to B to C. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:25.440 He has this insane aviation knowledge that he tries to work into everything, but it just doesn't land, no pun intended, as Indiana Jones. 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:26.240 It's awful. 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.759 Well, looking at Caden, I guess he was one of the older writers on the range. 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:39.440 He didn't he passed away in '97, and he was an aeronautics and aviation authority, so I can see why he's obviously put that into the story. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:44.960 It feels like, you know, this this this would have been one of the last few things that he'd ri he'd written. 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.160 But yeah, interesting. 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:52.319 He wrote a novel called Cyborg in the 70s, which was the basis for the six million dollar man. 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:53.759 There you go. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:54.799 How about that? 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.960 But if yeah, perhaps it feels like he was nearing the end of his career. 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.279 And so if we're being charitable to his perhaps his novel's not being that good. 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:13.839 Yeah, and he probably ate out for free on having written that cyborg novel for years, and that's probably why they picked him, like, oh, it's this legendary author who wrote the start of the six million dollar man. 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:14.640 Let's get him in. 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.680 But his stuff, it just doesn't suit Indiana Jones at all. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:18.559 Right, yeah. 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.759 So it's pretty much a case of wrong author for the job. 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:23.039 Absolutely. 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:27.519 Next, we have Max McCoy who does four novels. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.960 And conversely, I can't say enough good things about Max McCoy. 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:32.079 Oh, brilliant. 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:32.720 Yeah. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.039 From the off, Indy is out there. 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:42.480 He's raiding temples, he's discovering cool stuff, he's fighting fascists, he's delivering lines that actually sound like Indy. 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:47.759 You know, the the kind of stuff you'd have expected him to be doing all along in the novels. 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.640 And that's weird because Indiana Jones is pretty formulaic. 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:58.640 You know, you'd think it's hard to mess up, but Rob McGregor would go off and do his weird stuff at times. 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.640 Caden was just a dumpster fire. 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:08.319 So when you get to Max McCoy's four books, assuming you've been reading them in order like I did, it's like this breath of fresh air. 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:20.480 It's like your house is on fire and you've opened a window and you stuck your head out the window, and you're just amazed that someone who knows the character is finally writing stories that feel like Indiana Jones stories. 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:21.920 It shouldn't be a hard thing. 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.240 But when you get to his books, it's just amazing. 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:24.880 Wow. 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.920 Yeah, looking at his career, like he's done a lot of writing. 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:41.279 I can't say I've really heard of anything else he has written, but he's clearly somebody who was an experienced writer who carried on writing long beyond these books and you know had a successful career at it. 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.839 And he, as you say, he must have just really liked the character, which always helps. 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:48.000 Funnily enough, it does, yeah. 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:55.599 And then finally, as I say, a decade later, a guy called Steve Perry comes along and does one novel. 00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:05.359 And I've seen a a lot of comments online that are less complimentary about his novel, but I think it's really great too, on the back of the Max McCoy novels. 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:12.319 And I've given it some thought, and I don't know whether it's just a slightly more modern way of writing. 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:18.960 The the 90s books are very like these are definitely nineties spin-off books. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.920 Whereas this is maybe the writing is a little different. 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:27.759 Maybe he's just a younger writer, you know, Caden in particular, you mentioned but being an older guy. 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:32.000 Or maybe it's the way we've leapt from the twenties and thirties into the forties. 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:35.680 So we have a different indie, it's a different world. 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.160 And that one's got themes of voodoo and zombies. 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.920 Okay, interesting. 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:50.720 Yeah, their themes I think people can grasp onto because Haiti is a real place, and people do voodoo in real life. 00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:57.359 You know, so it's not that much of a stretch to take it, let's take it a degree or two further into raising the dead. 00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:58.000 You know? 00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:58.319 Yeah. 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.119 That's kind of like, yeah, I can get my head around that. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:11.599 Which is a real contrast to some of the like purely fantastical things that we're that we're asked to believe in some of the other books that have

just no basis in reality. 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:18.880 And also Perry does this thing where his antagonists get a lot of the story devoted to them. 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:24.960 So they're not just cartoon characters who pop up from time to time to, you know, twirl their mustache and disappear again. 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:34.559 So you've got this group of Nazis, you've got this group of Japanese army guys, and they're separately searching for the MacGuffin that Indy's also going for in this jungle. 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:48.720 So think of um a jungle with Nazis, with Japanese, with Indy and Mac Mikhail, and then in the background, there's this Haitian guy doing voodoo and raising the dead and sort of sending zombies after everybody. 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:55.599 And so Indy sort of takes a back seat to the the villains and the the Haitian guy. 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.559 And that's okay, because I think we know enough about Indy. 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.880 I like hearing about all these new characters and how these people were doing voodoo and raising the dead. 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.480 It was quite an interesting novel. 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.359 I quite liked it. 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.720 But as I say, some people, it it didn't land for them. 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.240 So yeah, who knows? 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.720 Certainly, out of all the ones you've mentioned, that one sounds the most appealing to me. 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:17.839 If I was going to pick one up, I think it'd possibly be that one. 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:18.799 Yeah. 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:27.759 And Steve Perry is big in the world of sort of spin-off writing, and he he wrote Shadow of the Empire for Star Wars, which That's right. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.799 You know, is obviously uh well thought of largely. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:35.519 He's written for Aliens, Alien versus Predator, Tom Clancy, Conan. 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.480 He's the sort of author that as this podcast continues, I'm sure will be brought up again. 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:48.400 Oh, well, look, Shadows of the Empire is ripe for your show because that was like a multimedia extravaganza. 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:52.079 There there is a soundtrack for Shadows of the Empire. 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:53.920 It's like a it's a it's a novel. 00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:55.519 I think there's a computer game. 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.319 There is a soundtrack for it, even though no movie exists. 00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:05.519 Like someone sat down and and wrote these imaginary pieces, so you can sort of listen to them and imagine that the action from that story is happening during the story. 00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:07.680 Anyway, we're getting off on a Star Wars tangent now. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:08.400 I'll stop. 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.480 But yeah, Shadows of the Empire is fascinating. 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.000 And yes, that was Steve Perry. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:12.559 Yeah. 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:20.240 So like a fascinating author, and the sort of author that I think, you know, is well suited for these sorts of books. 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:24.480 And as you say, he's a little younger than previous authors. 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.880 I guess he knows how to do interesting things with existing IP. 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:32.880 So I mean, as I said, that that was a a standout standing book for me. 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.920 Difficult for me to 100% say when I've not read them, but it's got the most intriguing premise. 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:45.039 Yeah, and probably for you or anyone who's thinking, yeah, maybe that's the one I'll read, much easier to get than the others. 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.400 Because the others are back from the nineties, whereas that's from 2009. 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:48.880 Right. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.279 You can still pick that one up in like new condition pretty easily, pretty cheaply. 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:53.519 Yeah. 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:54.000 Right. 00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.799 So what are the highlights of the range? 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:03.920 Well, I I think I've already spoiled this answer, but the four Max McCoy books are a really good time. 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:09.839 They're Philosopher's Stone, Dinosaur Eggs, Hollow Earth, and Secret of the Sphinx. 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.559 Pick up any of those, you'll be fine. 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:17.200 But I do think the best in the range is Army of the Dead, for me at least. 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:23.039 And, you know, for the life of me, I don't know why it didn't kick off another, at least a little series of novels. 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:23.359 Yeah. 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.400 I presume it was just sales not hitting some KPI on a spreadsheet somewhere. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.720 Maybe it was the reaction from fans because there are negative reactions to it. 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:36.319 But I think it was a really cool story, and nope. 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.000 Poof, no more novels. 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:39.839 No, no more novels since 2009. 00:32:40.319 --> 00:33:02.160 That's such a shame because I kind of feel like I I don't think there's necessarily an appetite for another Indiana Jones film, but books seems like an interesting place that the character could carry on and exist in, and you could still get something that feels like, you know, the the original trilogy that we all love, and also explore sort of new territory as well. 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:09.279 Well, yeah, but here's an interesting question, and let's tie it into Doctor Who, because we've got a lot of Doctor Who people on the line. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.640 Doctor Who novels have sort of gone down the toilet. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.680 Maybe they'll put out three a year, you know. 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.599 I know there are other little spin-offs like comics, and there'll be a bit of this and a bit of that. 00:33:19.759

--> 00:33:27.440 But that era, not just of like the new adventures and the eighth Doctor Adventures, but even the NSAs in the early years, they were they were coming out monthly. 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:29.279 Yeah, little book coming out monthly. 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:35.039 Is it just that people aren't buying books and so there's no reason to make books? 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.279 Because I I think if a publisher could make money, surely they'd want to make money. 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.680 Yeah, I I think it must be that. 00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:48.480 I've I I maybe like the new era of fans just they get their kicks in different ways. 00:33:48.640 --> 00:34:02.240 And for us, you know, we didn't have the internet, so picking up a tie-in novel that you might read over a month or so as a kid or a young adult or whatever was your your way to sort of immerge yourself in that universe. 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:04.880 But now I I guess there are other ways. 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:12.559 And for something like Indiana Jones, with the best will in the world, I don't think that last film brought in a bunch of new people who are like, I need more indie. 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:13.039 No. 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:19.760 I I think it's just uh unfortunate that this is a a franchise that perhaps is petering out slightly. 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:31.039 Yeah, I think the big audience for that last indie film, and it didn't get a big, big audience, but the people who were there in that audience, a big number of them were like 50 years plus guys. 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:32.079 Absolutely. 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.639 It certainly wasn't like 14-year-olds like I was watching Last Crusade. 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:38.320 No, exactly, exactly. 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:42.159 But yeah, I think you're right, books just don't sell like they used to. 00:34:42.639 --> 00:35:00.079 It's a shame because I mean, I've heard you talk about this on your podcast and or maybe it was online, but just like going into bookshops as a kid in the 90s or whatever, and there was just a vast array, like too much to consume of spin-off material from all of your favorite franchises. 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.159 It was like a magical thing to see. 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:10.400 Yeah, it was a real 90s thing now that I look back on it, you know, because that's where the Star Wars books sort of got resurrected and had their second coming. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:18.000 Because there had been, you know, uh apart from Splinter of the Mind's Eye, there'd been a hand solo trilogy, there'd been a Lando Carrizian trilogy in the 80s. 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:19.840 But then they went away for a long time. 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:25.440 And when they came back around '91 with the Heir to the Empire trilogy, yeah, they were back. 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:31.199 And then we got Star Trek novels, and things started to ramp up on the back of Next Jam. 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.760 And everyone seemed to have spin-off novels. 00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:40.800 Buffy had spin-off novels, Angel had spin-off novels, Babylon 5 had spin-off novels, you know, Indiana Jones got spin-off novels. 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:42.719 Robotech had spin off novels. 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.039 I'm looking at my shelves now, I could just keep going. 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:51.199 Everyone had spin-off novels, but now it's just not a thing so much. 00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:00.480 I'm sure they do exist for some shows, but not to the degree in terms of how many shows have them, and not to the degree of individual books for those shows. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:01.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:03.599 And it wasn't just genre fiction as well. 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:09.119 I remember there was neighbours novels and the EastEnders and Baywatch and things like that. 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.519 Like everything seemed to have a little tie-in novel here or there. 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:18.239 It might not have been to the extent of the indie ones or the Star Wars ones, but that they existed. 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.320 And I just don't think you would get that now. 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:28.239 Fun fact about 86 or 87, I got an EastEnders novel signed by Letitia Dean. 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:29.039 Amazing. 00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:29.679 I love that. 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.480 There's something I would never say on any other podcast. 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.199 What were the circumstances of that? 00:36:35.599 --> 00:37:01.519 She she came out to do a tour of the ABC out here, used to have ABC shops where they would sell at the time VHS of shows that would be on the ABC and t-shirts from shows on the ABC and all whatever spin-off items they could find, hats, you know, it was sort of like a lifestyle shop in some ways, based around the ABC brand, which in many ways was the BBC brand because the ABC bought many BBC shows. 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:10.400 And so she came out, and because these novels were new, I think they'd only been one or two released at the time, she was signing East Enders novels. 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:16.719 And I had been watching East Enders a bit around 86, or maybe 87, and I I went along. 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:18.159 I got to sign a book. 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.440 It's around here somewhere. 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.320 It's it's not front and center on my shelves, but it's somewhere. 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:22.719 Yeah. 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:23.599 Amazing. 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.960 I mean, yeah, you just you just would not get that now, I don't think. 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:28.000 And a shame. 00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:32.000 I think we're poorer for it, but that's my nostalgic tinted spectacles. 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:36.079 Like, you know, if if there isn't an audience there for it, there isn't an audience. 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:36.639 Yeah. 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.679 I mean, how much do they have to pay an author for one of these

things? 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:44.719 I don't know, and then pay the editors, and you know, I I guess the the economics just aren't there. 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:44.880 Yeah. 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:46.000 Yeah, absolutely. 00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.960 So what about the low points of the range? 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:50.639 Well, this is easy. 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.199 It's the two Martin Caden books, which are Sky Pirates and The White Witch. 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.719 They are just trash. 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:04.719 White Witch is the one I talked about earlier with the whole freezing of the river in the English countryside and driving over it and nonsense like that. 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.360 And Sky Pirates I mentioned earlier too. 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:09.760 And I'll get to what I was going to say earlier. 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:17.360 Sky Pirates is like Caden's had an idea for a novel that's part spy adventure, maybe part Ocean's Eleven. 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:24.800 And instead instead of just keeping that in his top drawer until it found a home, until a publisher said, Oh yeah, we'll have a look at that. 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:34.719 It feels like he's got the Indiana Jones gig and gone, yes, and changed the era in the 1930s, done a finder place on the lead character's name. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:44.800 There are even tells in it, I believe, because the town of truth or consequences is in the novel, that US town called Truth or Consequences. 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.320 And that didn't exist until the 50s or 60s, because I think it got named after a TV show. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:53.599 It won a competition or to win a competition, they renamed the town. 00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:55.679 So that didn't happen until the 50s or 60s. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:00.639 And yet the town of truth or consequences is in this 1930s Indiana Jones novel. 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:01.119 Right. 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:01.760 You know. 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.920 And don't get me started on his bloody obsession with aviation in the books. 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.960 I mean, I don't mind aviation. 00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:10.719 I sometimes go to air shows. 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.480 You know, I'm into aviation more than many people listening to this are into aviation. 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.079 But Caden is just so obsessed, it becomes distracting. 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:26.639 You know, I don't read Indiana Jones to wade through the nuts and bolts discussion literally of different aircraft and how they work. 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:37.039 And, you know, I'd feel exactly the same if his obsession was car racing and he made Indy a a car racer for a few stories or scuba diving and suddenly everything was scuba diving. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.119 I'd feel the same if that was his obsession. 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:45.039 You know, it might be very interesting in and of itself, but it's not an Indiana Jones sort of thing. 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:55.280 You know, when people talk about their favorite thing all the time and they just aren't self-aware that all the people around them really don't give a shit about whatever it is. 00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:01.519 Caden and aviation is the literary equivalent of that, the end. 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:03.440 What more can you add there? 00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.920 It it doesn't sound very appealing. 00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:20.000 And as you say, like, but because there's something like the idea of Indy in a plane, you know, piloting a plane, things like that, is something we, you know, we see in the movies, and it's quite exciting, but you don't need to get into the minute detail of it. 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:25.760 So Well, as he says in Last Crusade, fly, yes, land, no. 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:31.039 And uh yeah, look, he he gets around in planes in the films. 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.360 Famously, you see the the line going across the map. 00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:48.559 He's in planes then, but we don't see what's going on on the plane or have a conversation with the engineer about how it has the latest engine and it can do an extra, you know, fifty knots at a certain, you know, 30,000 feet or something, which is the kind of detail Caden goes into in his books. 00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.079 It's like, oh Martin, go away. 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:50.639 Right. 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:52.400 Yeah. 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:56.239 So how do these compare to the expanded media of other franchises? 00:40:56.480 --> 00:41:01.199 Because you've you've obviously noted you've got a bookshelf full of stuff from different franchises. 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:02.639 So where does this sit? 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:07.440 If I'm being really honest, Dylan, it it doesn't really compare well. 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:08.159 Right. 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.199 All franchise spin-offs have clangers in their ranges, if the ranges are big enough. 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:17.440 You know, but generally the books will be mostly decent for what they're meant to be. 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:24.000 And as I was preparing my notes for this, I was thinking about when you and Ian talked about the X-Files. 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:32.800 And my sense was that Ian was dancing around the concept that X-Files novels aren't high art. 00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:36.480 Like you won't mistake them for Martin Amos or something, you know. 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:43.679 But but but you can't completely slag them off either because they're doing what they say on the tin. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.679 You know, they're doing what you want them to do. 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.800 You you want an X-Files story, so you get an X-Files story. 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:53.760 The same for Babylon 5, same for Star Wars, same for Star Trek, Buffy, all those ones I mentioned earlier. 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.519 Spin-off novels scratch and itch, but they are McDonald's hamburgers, you know. 00:41:59.679 -->

00:42:00.960 So I know that. 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:08.400 But with the indie novels at times, it feels like the editors were just totally asleep at the wheel. 00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:17.440 You know, maybe the job was lumped on some poor editor and they didn't really know Indiana Jones, outside of maybe having seen one of the films once, you know. 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:19.599 Or maybe they just didn't care. 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:34.400 Or maybe, to be charitable, they had deadlines to meet, and when someone, Martin Caden, turned in a manuscript that was just shit, perhaps they really wanted to push back and say, no, Martin, no, this is just shit. 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:43.199 But they didn't have the luxury of giving him time for a rewrite or the budget to just pay him and not put the book out or or something. 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:51.360 So it's created a series where I I really can't just hand wave and say, hey, hey, listeners, go and grab one, you'll probably love it. 00:42:51.599 --> 00:43:00.000 Because there's a decent chance versus any other franchise I've ever read that you'll hit either a shit one or at best a very average one. 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:00.880 Right. 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:11.760 I mean, I think expanded media as a whole, especially at that time, was very much deemed like lesser literature if we're looking at the book ranges of things. 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:17.519 And it takes somebody who it's almost a cynical cash grab by a larger company. 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:28.400 And sometimes you get lucky that they have like you'll get somebody, a writer or an editor who really cares about the range and does really interesting or really solid stuff with it. 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:33.440 But other times you can see a big publishing house just going, oh, we can make a few quid off this. 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:43.119 Yeah, we've got a small budget, pay the writer, do one, you know, one draft of proofing, maybe send a few notes back, but you need to turn this round in like two or three months, and that's it. 00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:44.159 And we put it out. 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.239 The kids, they'll buy anything. 00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:48.880 Yeah, well, I I agree with all that. 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:54.239 And here's an example of how lazy or asleep at the wheel I think the editors were. 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:55.039 Go on. 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.760 There's a novel in the range called The Interior World, where we have the concept. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.480 Of a hollow earth with a race of people living inside. 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:16.239 You know, page after page of shape-shifting people who live behind portals and you have to drink a magic potion to enter or exit, and there's a dragon and there's a giant and there's a dinosaur. 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.719 I mean, this doesn't sound like Indiana Jones already, does it? 00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:29.280 But, you know, park that and now consider that story ends with Indy completely gung-ho to tell a journalist about the hollow earth. 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:35.840 You know, I've been there, I've seen it, I want you to know about it, I want you to tell the world the earth's hollow and these these people living in it. 00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:41.760 So it's established beyond a doubt, this is a place he's been, it's a place he feels passionate about. 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:52.639 Then, five novels later, we have a novel called The Hollow Earth, which is the concept of a hollow earth with people living in it. 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:55.920 Different author, that's a Max McCoy one. 00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:59.840 So maybe he didn't know the range had already done the topic. 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:09.039 But you would think, surely to God, an editor would pick it up and say, Oh no, sorry, we we did that five books ago, don't write that again. 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.039 Or just not commission it. 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:23.599 So the effect, if you're reading these novels in order, is Indy is completely dumb to this idea of the Hollow Earth in that novel, even though ostensibly he's been there five novels earlier. 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:35.760 But what saves that book is the take on the Hollow Earth concept is way better in the Max McCoy novel than the way they did it in the uh the earlier one, Interior World. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.519 It's it's a completely different take. 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.880 I mean, the concept is the same. 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:40.800 Yes, the earth is hollow, people are living in it. 00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:42.320 But the rest is different. 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:52.239 So if you only read one Hollow Earth Indiana Jones novel, dear listener, read the one called The Hollow Earth, not the interior world. 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:58.079 And that that just highlights how weird the editing is on that this range. 00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:04.320 The interior world also sounds like they've gone to AI and said, what's another word for hollow earth? 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.480 Because it's such a better title. 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:07.039 Yes. 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.199 But ironically, that's the one that comes first. 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:13.360 They couldn't have called it Hollow Earth, because the McCoy book happened at that point. 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:13.840 Yeah. 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:15.679 That is absolutely wild. 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:16.639 I can't believe it. 00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:17.599 But I mean, yeah. 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:20.559 Some somebody was not paying attention somewhere. 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:24.239 Or do you know if they have the same editors across the range? 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:25.519 I really don't know. 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:30.159 That that's why I make all these outloundish claims about editors being asleep at the wheel, because I just don't know. 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:32.239 It's just the way it comes across to me. 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:39.920

Yeah, I mean, th some something's happened there, but somebody is not across what the what the full range is doing and has done. 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:52.400 You know, maybe at the end of uh Rob McGregor's run, the editor left, and by the time the editor for Max McCoy came in, it was a different editor, and they just never looked at what had been done in the range before? 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.360 I don't know. 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:54.480 Quite possibly. 00:46:55.119 --> 00:47:08.880 As you say, i if it's sort of looked down a little bit, this editor's probably got another bunch of r uh ranges that he's also or that he or she are also looking at and just doesn't have the time to do any research if we're being charitable. 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:11.119 That's that's right, yes. 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.039 Anything else you want to say on this book range? 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:16.800 I mean, this has been fun, Dil. 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:18.480 It's always fun chatting with you. 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.800 Even if, as I said earlier, I never quite seem to nail the brief of just talking about two items. 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:23.280 No. 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:32.880 Um I I think the best thing I can say here to anyone who loves indie and is sitting out there thinking, gosh, I've never heard of these books. 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:34.559 I should really give them a try. 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.360 Just pay attention to what I've said in tonight's show. 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:42.719 There are a few good ones that you'll have a fun time with, the four Max McCoys and the one Steve Perry. 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:51.119 There's also some real shit, and there are some where it's like, well, it wasn't bad, but it was kind of silly, you know, and I think I could have spent my money more wisely. 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:56.639 So just read the good ones, like Secret of the Sphinx or Army of the Dead, and leave it at that. 00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:58.159 You don't need to read them all. 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:11.679 Between the authors having different styles, which we've covered, the themes being repeated, like the Hollow Earth thing, which we just spoke about, inconsistent characterization and some of them like Indy being Sherlock Holmes in the Sky Pirates. 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.559 You know, it's not a coherent line of books anyway. 00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:18.000 You you won't get a coherent story, even if you do read them start to finish. 00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:19.280 Trust me, I've done it. 00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:26.559 You know, if you're a real masochist and you think, gosh, Rob's really slagged this Sky Pirates, I want to read that now and see for myself. 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:28.639 I can't stop you doing that. 00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:32.320 You'll you'll find that everything I said was bang on. 00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:33.760 So don't blame me. 00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:35.119 That's what I'm getting at. 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.599 Yeah. 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:40.639 We're not encouraging you to do it, but if you want to do it, then you know, good luck, everybody. 00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:45.599 Yeah, it's this isn't reverse psychology where I'm saying this is so bad because I want you to read it. 00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:48.239 No, I'm saying this is so bad because it is so bad. 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:49.039 Yeah. 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:58.960 Then I must ask you to rate the range as a whole with my limited rating system of clanger banger or average meander. 00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:03.360 But if you if you've got to take a snapshot of the whole thing, where d where does it lie? 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:07.840 Well, I really rate five of the novels, the four McCoys and the Perry one. 00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:11.519 So that's almost half the range that I rate. 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:16.719 You know, and then I think there's enough from Rob McGregor that are at least okay. 00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:21.519 Genesis Deluge and Seven Veils are probably his two good ones. 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:29.119 For that to go up to seven out of 13 and it squeaks, I think, into average Meander territory. 00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:44.159 But I think if someone picked up a few of these on eBay at random and they weren't those right ones, like they were the Martin Caden ones, or some of the weirder McGregor ones, someone could very well read them and think, oh, average meander, my ass, Rob, you know, these are bloody terrible. 00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:50.719 But uh objectively, having read the lot and making a call across 13 of them, I think seven of them are good. 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:52.639 That's got to be an average Meander. 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:54.320 That's what I'm going with. 00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:55.039 Fair. 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:57.360 I th I think that sounds fair from what you've said. 00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:09.840 I touched a little bit on this earlier, but do you think there is a future for the franchise of Indiana Jones, be it on the big screen, the the small screen, or in books like these or elsewhere? 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:16.320 I think there is, and I think it's the small screen, and I think it's animation. 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:17.360 Interesting. 00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:39.360 I think that's the way you can credibly go back in time and do the the the era everyone loves, the 1930s, 1940s, without recasting someone as Harrison Ford and people be saying he's not Harrison Ford, it'd be like the the solo Star Wars movie all over again, like, oh, this guy doesn't look like Harrison Ford, he doesn't talk like him, this is bloody awful. 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:40.320 I don't want to know. 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:46.480 You know, I think you'd run into that trouble if you did either a movie or a TV show live action. 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:57.519 So I think you do animation, and I think because the audience is sort of dying off and getting older, you put it just on the small screen. 00:50:57.679 -->

00:51:03.039 You don't try and make it a$300 million movie, which was a big mistake with that fifth Indiana Jones film. 00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:03.440 Yeah. 00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:09.920 And I think you you maybe try and get kids in or a younger audience in through the fact it is animation. 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:10.239 Yeah. 00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:12.719 And they might be more disposed to watching animation. 00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:20.639 And it's this fun action-adventure animation, and maybe they don't concentrate as much that, oh, this is the 1930s and I'm not particularly into the 1930s. 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:22.800 That would be how I would do it. 00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:28.000 So yeah, I think it does have a future if they want to throw a bit of money at it and do animation. 00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:29.599 I think that's a great idea. 00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:35.360 I think, as you say, like some roles can be recast and you know, we're fine with this. 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:43.119 I think the thing with it indie, and it's like you say with solo, the issue with solo was we already knew what a young Han Solo looked like. 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:48.559 So to then have somebody else playing the role, who wasn't bad, it just wasn't Harrison Ford. 00:51:48.960 --> 00:52:03.760 And I I think that's the issue you'd suffer with trying to do like a with recasting the role in another film, because we know what our indie is like when they're younger, and I just like I've I've really got no interest with another actor playing him on the big screen. 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:10.559 But yeah, I I I think you're right, perhaps in an animated format that it might really have some legs. 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:20.079 Yeah, look, I I think a big appeal of the indie franchise was Harrison Ford, the same as him playing hand solo in Star Wars was a big part of the appeal, you know. 00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:33.199 And I loved I loved him in that, you know, there are actors you seize on when you're little, and chances are that within half a decade they'll have disappeared or certainly not be flavor of the month. 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:38.480 But Harrison Ford is a guy I can remember being one of the very first actors I paid attention to. 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:41.280 Like, oh, I like this guy, and he's in this movie as well. 00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.360 Oh, I want to follow this guy. 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.320 And here we are, decades later. 00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:51.840 I'm a man about to be past 50 myself, and he's still around doing good work. 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:56.639 So I think I bet on the right horse by as a kid going, I like this guy. 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:58.239 Yeah, he's still around. 00:52:58.480 --> 00:52:59.519 It's it's fantastic. 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.880 And he is he is Indiana Jones just as he is Hansolo. 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:04.079 Absolutely. 00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:07.760 As you say, there's a slight AIDS difference between us, but not a huge amount. 00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:12.960 For people of sort of our generation, he has a real golden streak, doesn't he? 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:18.079 Where he does Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and Blade Runner, sort of in the space of a few years. 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:33.199 And so he he's if you're into sort of genre stuff, he is just the face of big budget American genre at that point, and just taking you on wild adventures that that sort of resonate with you and stick with you for the rest of your life. 00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:39.360 Yeah, and then like he goes off on some tangents, like he does things like Mosquito Coast or Witness and things. 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:47.679 But then you get to the nineties and it's the fugitive and it's Air Force One and it it's all sorts of big stuff like that, the devil's own, you know. 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:51.840 And he's just a massive big guy in the nineties as well. 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.639 He's uh he's a real movie star, yeah. 00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:55.679 Absolutely. 00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:59.280 And Indy remains, you know, one of his most iconic roles. 00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:03.760 So I I would struggle to see anybody else in that role personally. 00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:06.159 Um imagine having your own theme music. 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.519 Like when you walk on at an award show and they play the theme. 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:11.360 That is your theme. 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.239 Like wouldn't that be a trip? 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:15.840 Wouldn't that do your head in? 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:16.719 Wow. 00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:26.079 Well, look, Rob, thank you so much for coming along today and talking about these range of spin-off media of indie books. 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:33.039 Like it's something that I'm keen to jump into loads of different franchises, and I'm really happy that we got to do this one. 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.119 Yeah, thank you for having me on. 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:50.800 And uh I hinted at the start, I think this is important because there are some good books in the range, but if I just talked to you about one of the good books, we wouldn't have got into the the weeds and talked about the bad books and and so on, and how this is a very up and down sort of range. 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:57.280 So I think it was good just to talk about them as a whole and highlight some of the better ones people can sort of cherry pick. 00:54:57.599 --> 00:54:58.079 Absolutely. 00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:04.320 You've given us a fantastic overview of the series, and I'm sure I'll pick up a couple of them, just not Sky Pirates. 00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:06.480 No, please don't. 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.440 If people want to find you, where can they find you? 00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:14.000 I'm on Twitter at the Doctor Who Show or the DW show is the handle. 00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:19.920 I co-host the Doctor Who Show with Dave Kitchen, which is a uh a monthly podcast about Doctor Who. 00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:22.800 We also do little spin-off shows at other times during the month. 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:24.159 And that's my thing. 00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:25.920 I'm a I'm a Doctor Who guy. 00:55:26.239 --> 00:55:26.719 Amazing. 00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:34.559 And yeah, you but you obviously you do your alternative galaxies where you do talk about other franchises from time to time, and they're always great fun. 00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:35.440 We do. 00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:43.119 They're they're a lot of fun because you know, from time to time you just you do want to talk about something that's not Doctor Who, and it's like, let's talk about the never-ending story. 00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:44.559 Tell me about it. 00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:45.440 It's why I'm here. 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:46.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:48.880 I feel ya, I feel ya. 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:49.920 Amazing. 00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:52.079 Well, this has been great fun. 00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:57.840 If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as it helps people to find the pod. 00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:04.079 Look for Too Hot for TV on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at TooHotTheNumber4 Pod. 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:09.599 That's Too Hot the number four pod for the latest updates and additional content. 00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:16.239 Next time I'll be celebrating 60 years of Gene Roddenberry's greatest creation, Star Trek. 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:22.880 But until then, I've been Dylan, I've been Rob, and this has been Too Hot for TV.