رونوشت کامل Episode 4 - Gender Based Violence ft Christabel Yeboah (HERSANA)

misogynoir, racism, all things inequality, that's what it's rooted in. And I think it's really important for us to know that all forms of gender-based violence are not about individual acts of violence, right? They are about structural harm, they're about structural control and so on. So yes, things happen, individual acts of violence, but what we're saying is these are embedded in everything, in every fiber of our society, in every fabric of our society. speaker-0: Lots to do, lot of work for you to do. What made you go into it? speaker-1: You know what? ⁓ To be honest with you, lift experience and rage. Lots of rage and I feel I'm not apologetic about it. very unapologetic about it. Audacious about it. So rage and lift experience made me get into it, but also the acknowledgement ⁓ after my lift experience is that there aren't a lot of systems created with me in mind. ⁓ speaker-0: Lots of rain. speaker-1: or with people that look like me or they experience the things that I experienced in mind. And so what I wanted to do, what we wanted to do is create a service that had black women and girls, black femmes at the forefront, at the crux of the foundation. So yeah, that's why or how I got into it. And it's not been easy, but hey. speaker-0: Honestly, you've done amazingly. It's phenomenal. And everything is always done with so much excellence. And I have no idea in this world how you have as much time as you have. don't. And when you sleep and how long you sleep for and how you have time for breakfast. speaker-1: Yeah, those are the questions, isn't it? Those are the questions. speaker-0: Honestly, okay, what does the day in the life look like for you? speaker-1: That's a very interesting question because I feel like there is no day, like no template. And that's the beauty and the chaos of my job, think. My day consists of strategic support. It consists of policy. It consists of advocacy and community work. So if I was to think about strategic work as funding and How are we structuring the organization to fit the needs of the people that we support? And how do we do better? And what do we change? And what do the funders need from us? How do I translate lived experiences into funding applications? That's the hard part, right? Into the language that those funders will understand and that they will take that serious. How do I do that? So there's that part. There is the research and development part, the training. part where we're developing and delivering training because we're raising awareness, we're working on prevention, but also we're challenging structures that already exist, we're dismantling them and rebuilding them. That's tough and we do that. There's advocacy work where we are working with service users, and that is anything from applying for non-molestation orders together or a class law order or immigration support or your access in therapy. Whatever that looks like, we're here and I there's a lot of community support. how can we do all

this service level delivery to victims themselves, but how are we here for the black film community in general? know, events and safe spaces and how we engage on social media with them and what resources do we have on our website for people who just want to check, you know? So how do we put that together? How are we relatable? What is it that we can support other community members, other organizations in doing so that they're raising more awareness? It doesn't always have to come from us. How do we support them in doing that? So yeah, there is, yeah, it's both, like I said, beauty and chaos. That's amazing. It's incredible. So doing all of that and mix, I also like you said earlier, I do domestic homicide. So, and then there is ⁓ dealing with deaths that were preventable. you know, very much preventable. If the structures had been in place, if the support had been in place, if the police had acted earlier, if we had all as professionals not called them hard to reach, because nobody's hard to reach, right? If we had all done the work that we're meant to do, we had been accessible enough, if we had been inclusive enough. Yeah, we are hard to reach. It's our problem. It's not anybody else's problem. And if we had not been so hard to reach as systems and organizations, then that person would still be here with us. And that is something speaker-0: systems are hard to read. speaker-1: looking at that as well on a daily basis. So yeah, a mix of everything. speaker-0: Right, and as a therapist I have to ask you, how do you, like, how do you keep well mentally in all of this? speaker-1: Yeah, I read. I read as an escape. I love reading. feel like, and that's what I say when people say, oh my gosh, you must be so smart. My love, I don't read to enrich my mind at all. I read to escape. read to switch off my brain. Sometimes I read because you know what? The stories in the books are way better than real life at this point. speaker-0: Yes, of course. speaker-1: I can almost anticipate what's and also the kind of books I read, they all have the same ending. Yeah. I'm not choosing books. I read the synopsis. I'm not choosing books that will leave me more heartbroken than I am in life. I know this is going to have a happily ever after. Yeah. And I love that for me. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's it. And then I move on. So reading, I work out. I'm in the gym five, six days a week. And I enjoy that. Not when I'm waking up to go. speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. give you a little fix. speaker-1: But when I finish, I feel so great. Yeah, I feel so wonderful. So I do that. I eat like a thief. And that makes me feel wonderful too. know, eating what I want and not feeling guilty about it. Good. And then community, like I'm so blessed to be able to catch up with you and other people that I catch up with, do things, go to the theatre, go to concerts, I travel. So I do find time to do the things that I need to. But this year, speaker-0: Yeah, they end up speaker-1: In particular this year, the theme for me is intentional rest, not reactive rest. rest, not reactive rest. That's my theme because I feel like I've done reactive rest for the last 10 years of this work. And this year is about intentional rest. know, not when I'm about to feel burned out, I'm feeling burned out or I'm tired. So I have to rest because it's 10 p.m. So I have to go to bed. But rather what does intentional rest look like? And that's for me. So really as a therapist, I don't have to full answers. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. speaker-1: And clearly what I'm doing is not fully working for me. But I'm hoping to figure it out this year. Thank you. I will be in touch and ask you what you tell your clients when it comes to rest as well. Because it's so hard. And as black women, we're not necessarily encouraged to rest. We keep going. We're strong. We're resilient. You know, you keep going. speaker-0: hold you to it. It's funny, I'm still figuring out speaker-1: People have had it hard before us and they will have a hard, you know, when you tell somebody they don't have to have, you know, people have suffered before you, people suffer after you. And it's almost like we don't get to rest. And that's why we're struggling and suffering with diseases and autoimmune conditions because we're exhausted. We're exhausted. It's not just an exhaustion from work or family, but it is the exhaustion that you're sitting in a world navigating a world of racism, biases. misogyny, misogynoir, sexism, all of that is exhausting. And so yeah, we're constantly exhausted. we need to rest. And so let's figure it out this year. speaker-0: I yes. I said to myself that I want to curate a life where I don't have to escape on holiday from it. Living a rested life. Yeah. Not a life that I need to jet off to go an hour away from. speaker-1: I like that. I don't have to escape. To feel the rest. speaker-0: Yes, because at the moment I need to leave the country before I can just... Okay, what are some of the frustrations and things that you wish people were more aware of? speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, ⁓ you get me started. I think my frustration is when I hear I'm an ally. speaker-0: ⁓ okay. speaker-1: You don't tell me that you're an ally for something that I experienced. I tell you that you are the ally. You don't title yourself an ally for the LGBTQIA plus community. Also, somebody might feel, I might feel like you're an ally and another person might not feel, of the same community might not feel like you're an ally. Okay. You know, right? So all I say is when people say I'm an ally for survivors and victims, I'm like, this is so interesting to me because who told you that? speaker-0: Yeah speaker-1: We told you that you're an ally. What does allyship even mean? Because to me allyship is expensive. Allyship is sacrifice. If your allyship has never cost you anything, if your allyship hasn't required you to speak in spaces where you could lose something, if your allyship hasn't required you to challenge

systems that you benefit from, by the way, then you need to re-evaluate what the allyship looks like for you because your allyship is usually just convenience. And if your allyship is convenient, then is it really allyship? is if it's not sacrificed and I don't know. But that's the price of allyship. It costs something. It's very expensive. But you don't mind. Right? The thing is that you're not being, it's not that I'm not being inconvenienced. That would be a lie. I don't mind being inconvenienced. That's the truth of it. And I think that when people call themselves allies and I think, well, how has this allyship impacted your life? It hasn't. ⁓ you haven't lost friends? Family members? speaker-0: finder. speaker-1: Don't invite you to parties anymore. You're not the one known to shake tables when you get somewhere. I don't know. And don't get me wrong, there's quite allyship, but it still is impactful and sacrificial. And so that is frustrating to me. People coining themselves allies to a movement without making any sacrifices. And also allyship is consistent. It doesn't stop. You don't do one training, do one thing and then that's it. I'm an ally. It's something you do every day. You sit in communion with the group that you're an ally for. speaker-0: Yeah speaker-1: And that means that you go with us through the waves, the ups and downs, we're doing it together. You don't just jump off the boat when it gets exhausting for you or when we do something that you don't like. so that's one of the things that's frustrating. think another thing that's frustrating is, you know, as a community, don't, as a society, we don't necessarily support victims and survivors enough. not just structures, but as individuals, as a society itself, as a community. We don't believe victims and survivors unless they present themselves in a certain way. Yes. And they have certain evidence. That's frustrating. It's exhausting. They have to present certain evidence. And also we assume that victims and survivors have to be good people. ⁓ Yeah. That you have to be a good person in order for you to truly be a victim or in order for you... I could be... unaliving people and still experience sexual abuse or any form of abuse. And I would still be a victim and survivor. And I would still deserve justice for that. I might still have to deal with the consequences of my crimes, but those things can coexist. And so it's almost like if you are not what society deems to be good person, then you are not allowed to be a victim or survivor. And that's why when we have conversations around sex working or around certain things, certain groups are not. deemed to be victim enough. And in our society, in this country, who is a victim? Somebody of a certain racial demographic, age and so on. So that's some of the things that frustrate me. ⁓ speaker-0: On that, I remember you had an event a few years ago that I came to and there was a conversation about victimhood and who is a victim, what does victimhood look like and thinking about being a black woman and how you present or how you should present in order to get help. And I remember I left heartbroken. I left heartbroken. And I listened to all kinds of stories all day at the time I was also working in prisons, like literally all kinds of things. But that conversation was really harrowing for me and really heavy because it was like, wow, is this the kind of thought process that we have to have? Are these the kind of conversations that we have to have in order to get basic help that should be our human right? speaker-1: I have to worry about what hairstyle I'm going to wear to court for my trial. Because if I do wear wig, am I going to look too put together and not victim enough? know, back then we also know straight hair gives me closer proximity to power. Because it gives me closer proximity to whiteness. Right? So is that it? Am I doing braids? But that's going to cost me 200, 300 pounds. Now I thought that. Am I going to have my natural hair out? speaker-0: put together. speaker-1: But then texturism and that gives me closer proximity to my blackness. And what does that mean when I'm trying to be a victim in a country where my blackness is not deemed as something that is worthy of victim status? Right? Do I cry? But do I look like I'm manipulating them because black women are Jezebels? Or do I not cry? But then I'm the angry black woman. So which one do I do? Do I express my rage? Right? What do I wear? What color? All of those things, even when it means when you're reporting, how am I showing up to the police as somebody who's reporting something that's happened to me, to my employer, to my child's school, to all of those things. It's exhausting constantly having to be so aware of everything around you because the way you are, the way you exist, you, you is just not accepted. And that's what Hasana existed for, right? That's what we were created for. So that we could advocate for your behalf and you could be yourself. But it's exhausting and I think it comes with a level of grief. And I think you get to a place where you don't even remember who you are. Because you always have to be something. ⁓ And that is also heartbreaking. Very difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. speaker-0: Run! speaker-1: Yeah, I I I always say that during this work, sometimes I envy the time when I didn't know, even though I don't remember a time that I didn't know. I envy, not knowing, I envy people who don't know or who don't believe. I wouldn't call it naive, but people who are naive to this sector and the realities of gender-based violence and the prevalence of it. The fact that The UK has some of the highest numbers in Europe, right? We're losing two to three women a week to deaths, domestic abuse related deaths by their partners, their family members, you know, I mean, their children, their sons, right? Parasite. That's the reality we live in. 97 % of women in this country have said they've

experienced a form of sexual harassment. 97 % that is everyone. That's everyone. That's too high. That is everyone. That is everyone. These are the realities of what we are looking at. When we look at who calls crisis helplines, one third of the people who call helplines around any form of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, one third of them also experience that kind of abuse as children. So really and truly, I miss... Because the way I navigated through life, or the way I would have been navigating through life, speaker-0: No. speaker-1: Yeah, more carefree. I would be walking around my house more carefree. I'll be engaging with people more carefree. I'll be dating more carefree. Yeah. But that we don't have that anymore. That is gone with the wind. And so I have a level of grace for people who don't want to know. speaker-0: different. Okay. speaker-1: I'm strict, don't get me wrong, but I have a level because I get it. Because once you there is a, you grieve a life. There's no going back. You have to grieve that life, the life that you knew before. And I hear it, it's It's hard. I hear it. speaker-0: Earlier on when I was asking you what you wanted to be when you were younger, you said you couldn't remember. What's that about? speaker-1: You know what? And this is like a bit of insight into something that Hasana is working on, but I was having a conversation with one of my siblings and it's kind of fed into an Imagine Me campaign that Hasana is currently working on alongside some research. And it was looking at who would I have been before any lived experience? Or what would my passions have been? Because I don't remember. Ever since I've had lived experience, I remember wanting to create safe spaces for other people. other people. For have lived experiences. That's all I know. I didn't have to look like Hasana, but I knew whether it is I'm a police officer and I'm doing this, whether it's I'm a doctor and I'm only working with... It's always been I have to create safe spaces for victims and survivors and I have to advocate for women, in particular black women. And I was having a conversation with my younger sibling and we were talking about it and they were asking me, well, who would you have been without your lived experiences. And I was like, well, I really love to read. So maybe I would have written a book. Maybe I would have been an author. Maybe I would have owned a library, a coffee shop. And you know what? They responded, which was so interesting. But what if you like to read because that was an escape from your lived experience? I said, then I don't know. Then who am I? So actually, I don't know. I do not remember who I was and who I wanted to be before it. I just remember who I am now. speaker-0: So who would that be? I forgot this. speaker-1: And do I hate it? No. No. I love what I do. But I wish I had the privilege of knowing. It's just I would have liked to know and like to remember what that was. So yeah, I don't remember. wanted to be. And like when I look at all my past like school and sixth form kind of where you're going to. I had already been saying I'm creating safe spaces, something similar to this. nobody remembers. So I don't know, unfortunately. But I know who I think I want to be like once my retirement age comes. Yes, literally. I'm retiring early. Absolutely. Like people are getting like max 10 more years out of me. Out of here. But I was like, with the way I love books now and I love a good coffee. We're going to get that coffee shop and library, reading space, coffee shop. But it turns into a wine bar. speaker-0: Yes, we are, both of us. Absolutely. So we're going to get that coffee shot. speaker-1: the evening. Wine tasting, chuku chuku boards. can never say the actual word of it. All of that above, we're going to something like that. We don't know yet. But branches, you know me, I like things big. So might be one in Ghana, might be one here, might be one in Germany. never know. Yeah, yeah. You can come then do reforma pilates. speaker-0: I'm shocked! Okay, location. Don't doubt you for a- speaker-1: It's a big vision. Don't worry, we'll get there. Thank you. What about you? What's your retirement plan? speaker-0: I will be there. Thank you. Ten years. We'll you 15. Oh travel really. I love that. Retire at 45, travel, write books. Retiring meaning not that I would stop doing therapy but just that I wouldn't need to, I would hands off. Yeah. And then yeah lots of travel, travel to different places, lots of food. speaker-1: Yes. me. speaker-0: without obesity somehow. speaker-1: But that's the ten years problem. speaker-0: Doesn't exist. yeah, I think that's my plan. Lots of rest. Yeah. Why not? Why shouldn't I live my life? speaker-1: Why not? Absolutely, and feel no way about it. Feel no way about it. Just be hopping on islands. Absolutely. Let me know where you are I shall visit. speaker-0: somewhere in Thailand. Okay, what should we as a community do to raise more awareness? speaker-1: ⁓ educate ourselves. can only raise awareness of things that we actually know and understand. And that means educating ourselves as a community. ⁓ That means attending training sessions, but also reading books. ⁓ Be mindful, you know, as you read, as you educate yourself, you realize more things. You know, you will understand how society plays such a big part when it comes to protecting perpetrators or under reporting gender based violence, right? You will notice that the headline said, So and so had sex with 14 year old and you realize that you cannot have sex with 14 year It's not consensual. So automatically it would be rape, right? So those are the things that you realize when somebody is pointing it out to you and you're like, actually, hold up a minute. That's the condition has to kind of normalize things and language like, know, groping, that's assault and sexual abuse. Groping is not legal terminology. know, let's put names to things again. speaker-0: condition on.

speaker-1: educating ourselves, being there for one another, being a community. You spend so much time questioning victims when you could have just supported them. where were you? What were you doing? What were you wearing? You know, like clothes have ever determined in countries where, you know, people are wearing different types of things. There's a wonderful exhibition. It's been done all around the world now, but from where I knew it was Turkey, where they ⁓ displayed different clothes of speaker-0: Hmm. were you wearing that? speaker-1: people had survived sexual abuse. Anything from baby grumpers to burqas because clothes never made a difference. They never did alcohol or drugs. None of these things ever made a difference. as challenging or as questioning victims, when we could just support them and create safer systems for them, we're wasting time. would say as society, we need to support victims and we need to realize that people's reaction, the way people have What is abuse to one person might not be abuse to another person. And you need to realize that. That would have never bothered you, but that's coercive control to another person. Based on my circumstances. If I have insecure housing, if I'm homeless, if you offer me a roof over my head to engage in sexual activity with me, that is coercive control. Because you knew that my decline of that offer would have consequences attached to it. Sleeping in minus four degree weather. That's a consequence. That could result in my death. So you knew you were doing it. speaker-0: Absolutely speaker-1: You are coercing me. So I wasn't consenting. what you would deem based on your privileges where you are in life or based on barriers I would experience as a calm and that's not a problem. can just say no. Other people can't. so realizing that there is no linear route of surviving or victimhood is just it depends on the person's individual circumstances and therefore having that grace, patience, that empathy. ⁓ And if you can't, at least pointing them to the places that do, familiarize yourself with what support is available. National helplines, domestic abuse, sexual abuse helpline, crisis helplines, specific support like Hasana, Sister Space, Women's Aid, Forward, Women of Grace, Mug Honeybees, there are incredible switchboard, Gallup, Stay Safe East, Sign Health, There are specific organizations that do specific support. And it's okay if you don't feel like you fit into a specific support. It's not because you don't fit, it's because the support doesn't fit around you. Yeah. And so it's okay to go to another support service. Yeah, of course. Same way it's okay to go to one therapist and say, don't... Go to another one. Go to another one. There's nothing wrong with you. And I want survivors and victims to know there's nothing wrong with you. You're not doing anything wrong. You're navigating a world where you're figuring out how to survive, where you are dealing with something bad that has happened

to you. speaker-0: Alright, fair. speaker-1: or is happening to you and there is no right or wrong way to navigate that your rage is not wrong, your survival instinct is not wrong, figuring it out is not wrong, you're figuring it out. And that's absolutely fine. ⁓ And I think I want people to know that. I want people to ⁓ be more intentional about what that looks like, about what their advocacy, what their allyship looks like and then become an ally. One that makes sacrificial sacrifices. speaker-0: Wow. Okay, so we're almost wrapping up the conversation and an insightful one it has been. Thank you. I want to ask you what you have to say to someone who is struggling at the moment. What can they do? speaker-1: I said earlier, you're not doing anything wrong. I think it's up to you. I always say you are the expert of your life. We're not here to make decisions for you. I'm never here to make decisions for you. I'm here to walk alongside you in whatever you decide to do. And listen, I support women's rights and their wrongs. You know me, you know that. I'm a women's rights supporter and a wrong supporter. But outside of that, it's genuinely if you... Feel ready to speak to somebody about it. can't be maybe finding one safe person. It doesn't have to be, have to tell everyone my life immediately, right? It'll be finding one safe person and telling them. And you don't have to say everything. It's up to you how much you share. much you're comfortable sharing. How much you're not comfortable sharing. It's up to you if you want to share in drips and drops. It doesn't matter. It could be a family friend. It could be a family member. It could be a stranger. You know, depends on how you feel. It might be that you want to contact an anonymous helpline, live chats, phone line, whatever works for you. It might be that you want to refer yourself into a service. That's okay as well. Nothing wrong with that. But also as a victim and survivor, you do not have to access any support in order for you to get to the space that you want to get to. Right? I don't want you to feel like you're healing quote unquote is dependent on engaging with certain services. doesn't, you know, it can assist, can aid, but it's not a be or an end all. figure out what works for you and be patient and give yourself a lot of grace. Don't let anyone convince you that you need to forgive immediately and that you need to do it a certain way in order for you to be a real victim, quote unquote. That doesn't exist. Again, take your time. It's all about you. It's all about you, right? Somebody, you know, took or had control over you and took something from me that it wasn't supposed to in whatever capacity and now they're placing that blame on your shoulders and it shouldn't be something that you carry ever. So all we are here to support you with is taking that load off your shoulders. It's not something for you to carry. The guilt is not for you to carry. The shame is not for you to carry. The responsibility is not for you to carry. And we know that healing or being a victim survivor is expensive. Nobody pays for your therapy. Yeah. Nobody pays for you to take time off work in order for you to ⁓ sleep a bit because you've had nightmares or flashbacks or not. Nobody does that. It's all on you. So again, do what works for you and don't put a time limit yourself. So yeah, that's what I can say for now in the time that we have. speaker-0: Thank you so much for coming. speaker-1: I love yapping with you, we need to do this more often. We do. We need to do this more often. We do. speaker-0: It was fun. Thank you. It's been a great conversation. Thank you. Before we end, where can people find you? speaker-1: So you can find Hasana under www.harsana.org. It actually means her safe space. is derived from the Latin. So it means her safe place, her place of rest. So harsana.org. So www.harsana.org. You can also find us on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn under Hasana CIC. And you can find me personally anywhere where Hasana is. That's it. speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you so much. you guys so much for listening. It's been a wonderful conversation and I hope you'll join us again next time. Take care.