رونوشت کامل Session 487: Elective Health Screenings

felt underappreciated, undervalued, invisible. And I was not sleeping well. I was feeling anxious. My body was telling me I had to make a decision about whether to stay in an environment that was not healthy for me versus leaving. And No, I think for you, you wouldn't make this sound dramatic, but I feel like it was a life-saving decision that I made to leave because when I look back at photos of myself in academia, I was so thin. I had dark circles under my eyes. I just was not living my best life. And so I had to make this decision to leave in order to really be in alignment, to be in an environment that supported me. And that's what I did by creating my own organization, Advancing Health Equity. I didn't realize that that's what I was doing, but that decision to leave academic medicine to focus on my consulting from Advancing Health Equity literally just opened up abundance, opened up doors, but also I was able to walk in my purpose. And as a result of that, just be happier, be more content, feel more fulfilled. Hmm. 00:04:47 Speaker 1: I feel like this is such a beautiful message to other people, right? Because I think lots of people are probably considering like, is this something that I want to continue with? And especially for something like medicine, where you had devoted so much of your time, right? Like there's a family history of working as a physician, right? Like I'm sure there was not an easy decision to make to kind of walk away from something that you had kind of been preparing for, for most of your life. 00:05:11 Speaker 2: So true. And it's funny because my book agent, who I love and has become like one of my best friends, she said to me, do you realize the decision that you made to walk away from your academic job? Do you realize how big a decision that was? And I think it's taken me time to recognize it because like you said, I used to work probably since I was in, before high school, thinking about becoming a doctor because my mother was a doctor. So I was always working towards that goal. And you know, that goal is very, It's intense. It requires a lot of you, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of delayed gratification. And to make that decision also in academics, people don't leave academics because you have a good salary, you have benefits. Like, why would you leave? But I had to leave. And so looking back, I'm like, wow, I can't believe I did that. But I can't say that I wasn't scared. I was scared. But I always say just because you're scared doesn't mean that you can't still be brave. Right. That you still have to make that decision that's in your best interest, even though it feels uncomfortable. But that discomfort is like what's telling you, I got it. I got to peace out. Yeah. 00:06:33 Speaker 1: So, you know, I don't know if we talked about this the first time you were on the podcast, Dr. Blackstock, but you and your sister, Dr. Oney, and a circle of other Black women physicians have become my own personal CDC. So you are all

who I was looking towards, especially during the pandemic when there was so much like, ridiculous health information. It's like, where do we even go for like reliable information? Like who can make sense of this for us? And so, you know, I think it kind of is an extension of the work that you do with your organization, Advancing Health Equity. But talk about like health literacy and like, you know, showing up online as a physician to share information. health information, especially during a time when there is so much misinformation and disinformation out there? What does that look like for you? 00:07:17 Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you so much for that question because it's something that I don't take lightly at all. Before I put anything out on social media or before I go on air, I always make sure that what I am saying is backed by evidence because I know that even if I'm on air talking to The host, I'm actually not really talking to the host, I'm talking to the public, right? And I'm talking to our folks, especially. So I want to make sure that I'm saying it in a way that folks, that people understand and can take that information and make informed decisions for themselves. But it's interesting because I think part of how racism works is by withholding information. information that communities need, right? That's always kind of how it's been. And I think that when we had, we would have the beginning of the pandemic, we were in a crisis. Unfortunately, Folks did not have access to the information that they needed. So I kind of I felt like this is a time for myself and other black health care professionals. We got to step up and we got to make sure that we're doing our part in protecting our communities, but also not doing it from a paternalistic view, doing it from a view of like, I want to make sure that. Our community has the information that they need to make, like I said, the informed, responsible decisions for themselves because these are dangerous times. And it's interesting because I feel like even now, what's going on now, we know that trust in institutions is going down. And that's for everybody, not just Black folks, everybody. But I feel like we're in another time where I really want to make sure that folks have the information that they need to make those informed decisions. 00:08:57 Speaker 1: Well, that's a part of why I wanted to have you back today, because one of the things that we've been talking about as a Therapy for Black Girls team is like the conversations we're seeing around elective health screenings. Right. So it feels like there are all these test your levels for this or the whole body scans. And it's like, oh, my gosh, what is all of this? Like, do I need this? Is insurance paying for this? The answer for a lot of them is no. Right. And so I wanted you to really help us make sense of some of these elective health screenings. So can you talk about what an elective health screening is and how that might be different than like labs that your doctor orders because you see symptoms? 00:09:33 Speaker 2: Right. And also, you know, there are like the basic blood tests that your primary care professional may send at your annual exam that are pretty standard, right? This is like evidence-backed. We're going to check your complete blood count. We're going to check your electrolytes. We're going to check your cholesterol, your hemoglobin A1C, see if you're at risk or if you have diabetes. So like there's certain things that are pretty significant. 00:10:00 Speaker 1: To check. 00:10:00 Speaker 2: But now I think because there are all of these other businesses out there where there is like longevity medicine, wellness that are putting out these other elective screenings that you can take, right? These blood tests that you can take that may give you a little bit more information. I want to say that it's not necessarily the standard and it's not necessarily required. Like if you want additional information, sure, you can get that. But the question is, is that to make sure that whoever that health professional that you're working with can take the information and share it with you in a way that's helpful, right? That may not necessarily always be the case. 00:10:41 Speaker 1: What do you mean there? 00:10:42 Speaker 2: So for example, if we're checking other blood tests that are non-standard, that we want to make sure that even if it's different hormone levels, right? That there's a healthcare professional that can explain to you what that means, right? A lot of times it's like, these are telehealth companies, right? There are other reasons why they are marketing these tests in these labs. But we want to know what are the consequences? What are the results of these labs mean? How did they change how you eat, how you live your life, right? A lot of times patients are not getting the information. 00:11:19 Speaker 1: Got it. OK, so you may take these elective tests because you see maybe an ad on Instagram or something like that, which is where I often see a lot of it. 00:11:27 Speaker 2: Right. 00:11:27 Speaker 1: But there isn't necessarily like a physician or maybe your physician. 00:11:31 Speaker 2: Right. 00:11:31 Speaker 1: Who maybe you develop the relationship to interpret these results and like help you understand what the information means. 00:11:37 Speaker 2: Exactly. 00:11:38 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. So in my mind, that feels like maybe something we should be pretty cautious about because it feels like then there's like an abundance, maybe even an overload of information that maybe leaves you feeling more overwhelmed and anxious when maybe you don't need to. 00:11:50 Speaker 2: Right. And I think also what's important is that something that you brought up is that you should talk to your own health professional about that. So if you are using these other services where you're getting these other additional services, blood work and tests done, like bringing that

information back to your health professional and saying, hey, this is what they found. Can you help me interpret this also? Or how does this fit into how you're managing my other medical issues that I have? So I think that communication piece is really important. But I think there's such an interest in wellness now and then also longevity that They're seeing those Instagram ads and saying, oh, I want to sign up for that because I want to get this whole battery of tests that tell me something different, right? And like I said, the question is, how does this fit into the care that you're already getting? And I don't want to stick my nose up at what some of those tests can show because depending on, for example, if you're perimenopausal or menopausal, some of those additional tests actually increase may be helpful for you, right? In terms of figuring out what kind of supplements that you need to be on. But again, bringing your own physician or healthcare professional into that conversation is important. 00:13:05 Speaker 1: Got it. So, you know, for example, like I mentioned, like one of the ones that I feel like I've seen the most conversation around are the full body scans, right? Is it an MRI? 00:13:15 Speaker 2: So usually it's a CT scan, but it can be an MRI scan. But the issue with those are, yes, so you mentioned some things like, is it even covered by insurance? But the other thing is in incidentaloma, oftentimes those scans will find something that may be abnormal, right? But it may end up once it's worked up that it was really nothing, right? Because it'll find it's very sensitive. These tests are very sensitive. They may find like a little nodule or something that actually may not have any significant health consequences. but you go chasing down a rabbit hole. 00:13:55 Speaker 1: Right? 00:13:55 Speaker 2: And so right now, there's no real evidence for those whole body scans, whether they be CT scans, or MRI, the different types of imaging show different types of pathology and disease. So it depends on which one you get. But what's really important for people to understand is These tests are not ones that are typically done on a full body on a healthy person and can pick up findings that may be abnormal but may not have consequences. But you end up going down, like I said, the rabbit hole of like workup, additional testing, ultimately to find out that there was nothing significant there. 00:14:34 Speaker 1: Hmm. Which feels like a barrier, right? It feels like even though we're talking about it like, oh, this is kind of extra and maybe not something indicated for most people, it does feel like there now becomes an access to care thing, right? Because this is likely not covered by insurance if this is not something that's like ordered by your physician because there are concerns about something. So already the people who are able to afford this are like in a different tier. And then if they find something, what did you call it? An incidental loan Incidentaloma. Yeah. 00:15:07 Speaker 2: It's called an incidental finding, like a finding that you'd find not because the person is having symptoms and because the symptoms are looking for something specific. The person's fine, but you're just doing a whole body scan just because they want to see if there's anything wrong. When that happens, you're more likely to find something that doesn't have a consequence to it. Yeah. 00:15:27 Speaker 1: But then if you find one of these things, then I think a physician and likely yourself, I would want to follow up. 00:15:33 Speaker 2: Right. 00:15:33 Speaker 1: So now we're talking about more testing. 00:15:35 Speaker 2: Right. 00:15:36 Speaker 1: And so it does become like a cost prohibitive kind of thing, even if it were something that maybe became more mainstream. 00:15:44 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And so definitely, I don't think that there are many insurance companies that are paying for these total body scans, like that definitely is not happening. So more than anything, people are paying out of pocket for them. And I would say if they're paying out of pocket for them, then it's a considerable amount of money, probably thousands of dollars. 00:16:01 Speaker 1: Right, right. So you've referenced, Dr. Blackstock, kind of longevity and wellness, which I think those words clearly have been around for some time. And like that, I think, is the goal for many people to be alive as long as possible and to be well as long as possible. But it does feel like a lot of those, the companies that we're seeing and like the ways that people online are talking about them, like that feels like a newer phenomenon, like this wellness thing. Kind of ecosystem that has sprung up that is a proponent of these kinds of like elective kinds of tests. Can you say more just about like this industry and kind of like where things stand as you see it? 00:16:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's like very attractive to people like this idea that. If there are certain things that you have control over, whether it's like the exercise you do, the supplements that you take, that you can actually live a longer, better life. I think like personally, some of the issues I have with some of these brands is that some of it is not evidence-based, right? Like some of it is based on, for example, like collagen supplements, right? People are taking collagen supplements, but actually collagen supplements are Your body just digests them like any other food and may use some of it to make some materials for your body. But it's nothing significant, though, you know, but people are like sold on these different indications for these supplements. without really understanding kind of what they do. And not to say like you need to have a rigorous study, but they haven't been shown to be effective in any of these rigorous studies. I'm not sure if you've heard of NAD. It's actually something that like our cells make, but you can take it as like a

pill, you can take it as a shot, as an IV, and that's related to your energy levels, right? And so people are taking it orally, but orally, it really doesn't have that much impact. Apparently, if you give it IV, it can have some effects. But again, like the data that backs all of these supplements up is not really solid and not very convincing. And I think for me, when I think about these, the wellness and longevity areas, I think about, it's like they're operating in these silos and not thinking about systems in which people are living. So if someone is living in an area where there is a food desert, or there are no fresh foods, they're only processed foods, how does taking supplements offset what's happening on a community level? So I think that for me, there is a concern that these Companies like these industries, they're not really thinking about the whole person. They're just thinking about, okay, what if we give this supplement? What if we do this? But not thinking about the situation in which people are living in or access to care or transportation. All the other things that we know called the social determinants of health that impact how healthy people are, they're looking at it very myopically and not thinking about it health more broadly, which is how I think about health. 00:19:11 Speaker 1: Right, right. And I think we've had conversations on the podcast before around like the regulations for supplements, right? And that they are not the same as like the medicines we get from, you know, a prescriber, right? Yeah. And so you think like, oh, it's like a natural supplement or something that naturally is made in our body. So it can't be harmful. But these are still things that we should be concerned about in talking to physicians and like healthcare professionals about before we make decisions about taking them. 00:19:39 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And just even doing our own research on it, just, you know, seeing what is out there, but definitely having conversation with the health professionals in their lives to see, you know, is this something that would benefit me or not? And what is the evidence for it? Is there any evidence for it? I mean, listen, I take a multivitamin every day, right? And some of the data for multivitamins is not great, but I feel like, okay, what's the harm? I'm going to take my multivitamin and make sure I'm getting all the nutrients I need, you know, but I'm also going to make sure that I'm eating well and doing the other things, right? To support my health. Got it. Got it. 00:20:19 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You know us as an award-winning podcast, but Therapy for Black Girls is also helping connect you to real care in your community. As the year winds down, a lot of us start thinking about what we want to feel in the new year. If finding a therapist is on your list, start at the Therapy for Black Girls directory, where over 5,000 Black women practitioners are ready to connect. Search at therapyforblackgirls.com. And therapists, this is a great time to make sure you're listed and your profile is ready for the new year. Join us at therapyforblackgirls.com slash start dash here. So you mentioned one of the areas where we are seeing a lot of like attention and a lot of these tests and like supplements and things pop up is around like perimenopause and menopause. And it feels like because there has been such a lack of attention to this area for women, it feels like it is also ripe for exploitation. Right. And so can you talk about like how can we vet? Because it still feels like we've had Dr. Sharon Malone on the podcast twice. 00:21:30 Speaker 2: Yes. 00:21:31 Speaker 1: And so she's given us such great information, but also has like blown my mind with all of like I think it's like a list of 52 symptoms or something of like symptoms that are for perimenopause and menopause. And so I think so many of us are still learning information. It feels like it is very easy to kind of be persuaded in ways that are not actually helpful to us as we are just trying to feel better in our bodies right now. 00:21:55 Speaker 2: No, I hear you. And even myself as someone in perimenopause, I go through that too in terms of like what's happening. A few years ago, I was having insomnia. and not recognizing that that was likely related to being in perimenopause. I was like, why am I not sleeping well? Why am I waking up at 2, 3 in the morning and I can't go back to sleep? And then part of that was talking to my doctor, talking to my OBGYN, and then figuring out, okay, what do I need to make sure that I sleep well, but also recognizing that was part of the perimenopause symptoms. And so I think one of the issues, and I'm sure Dr. Malone mentioned this, is that not even... OBGYNs get substantial training during residency in perimenopause, menopause, right? And then not only that, but now just women being studied, right? And then older women being studied, that has been an area that's been incredibly neglected. So I think that I know for me, one thing that I look for, and it's so funny you talked about Dr. Malone, because I will be using like MyAlloy, which is the organization that she's chief medical advisor for because they have menopause specialists, right? And so you definitely want to do your research, make sure that you're finding people that have special training in that area. Because even most, like I said, most OBGYNs don't have that. right? And then also there's so much new data coming out, right? Like even about like hormone replacement therapy, right? There was a change recently in how we think about that, right? And there are other ways that we can make the perimenopause menopause period for women more bearable. But I think part of it is also the education piece, recognizing the symptoms, right? Recognizing that also like for Black women, we experienced perimenopause symptoms much earlier, right? And so we may be having brain

fog. We may be having the hot flashes. We may be having these symptoms that are disrupting our daily lives. And we're like, what is going on? And we may go to our own healthcare professionals and they're like, no, no, you're fine. They're just stressed, right? So I think that the health literacy piece is also very important as well. 00:24:08 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. So are there any elective health screenings that you can think of that you feel like could be good ones for us to maybe talk with our physicians about taking? 00:24:20 Speaker 2: I think for me, a lot of the screenings that are recommended that we already have are ones that are based on a lot of data, right? The years of experience, whether they be screenings for breast cancer, for cervical cancer, right? For colon cancer, for lung cancer, right? So I think for me, those definitely radiology studies, the blood tests that we get at our annual exams, I cannot think of ones that are more beneficial than those. Yeah. 00:24:53 Speaker 1: Got it. Okay. And I think that there are even like new screenings like suss out like different kinds of cancers, right? Like aren't there new screenings that will tell you if there's an indication? 00:25:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are. But the thing is, If you may be high risk on the history, that's really important, right? or if you're having symptoms. So it's not necessarily something for everybody. It has to be indicated. Got it. 00:25:18 Speaker 1: You know, as we have this conversation, Dr. Blackstock, I also feel like there is an extension of like the elective screenings that kind of comes in the form of the wearables, right? So like the Oura Ring and the Whoop and maybe even a Fitbit or Apple Watch, right? Like the technology that has kind of come out to kind of track different kinds of things. What are your thoughts about that and like how it maybe informs health decisions? 00:25:39 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's interesting. So the wearables, I think they can provide some important information, right? So I know there are people who were able to diagnose that they had an irregular heartbeat because of their wearable, right? Or that they're not getting enough sleep, right? But again, I think the wearable has to be part of a more coordinated approach. care system, right? It can't just be the person that's like, okay, my wearable is telling me this, then I'm going to do this, right? Like, how are you talking to your healthcare professional about like what you're finding or what you're noticing when you wear your aura ring, right? Are you noticing that your heart rate goes up too high when you're exercising? So again, like, I think the wearables can be, and I think about this like AI, wearables, they can be beneficial, but thinking about how it's being used, how are you coordinating with your doctor? What is the information that you're getting from it? So like for me, I think definitely like, okay, you want to know how many steps that you walked, right? You want

to make sure you're hitting between 7,500 and 10,000 steps a day, right? If that's your goal. And evidence-wise, we're told that that's a good goal. Like, I think that that makes sense. But then for, there's a lot of other information that these wearables are giving, right? and that they're sharing. And we need to make sure that people understand what to do with that information. 00:27:07 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I've read things recently that talk about like how some of the wearables increase health anxiety, right? Because you find yourself tracking so many things. 00:27:18 Speaker 2: Listen, Dr. Joy, can I tell you, I just stopped wearing, that's why I stopped wearing my Oura ring. Because It was stressing me out. It was saying that I wasn't sleeping well. So I was like making sure I was like waking up like am I sleeping? I was sleeping. So I recognized once I stopped wearing it, I could sleep better. Wow. So I stopped wearing it. And then also I had like a breast mask scare. I'm fine. But while I was going through that, my aura ring actually told me that I thought I was sick. It was that I was having minor symptoms and that was because of the anxiety I was having about this breast mask that we had found that I got biopsied, ended up being fine, but the Oura ring was making me even more anxious. And so, so yeah. So sometimes I feel like, okay, maybe there's some information that we need to know, but maybe we don't need to know all the information all the time. Yeah. So it's almost like we are inundated with information. 00:28:19 Speaker 1: Right. 00:28:20 Speaker 2: Now it's about our body and how our body is functioning. And sometimes, like you said, that is anxiety inducing for people. 00:28:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, it almost feels like there needs to be like a middle ground between kind of like ignorance is bliss versus like I know everything about every cycle and like I'm tracking all of these things. Like it feels like there has been, you know, like you mentioned, like. so much of the conversation around like longevity and wellness, it feels like we've moved into this, like how do we optimize everything? And it is moved past just like, okay, I want to be relatively healthy. 00:28:54 Speaker 2: Right. 00:28:55 Speaker 1: How do you find that balance, especially with all of the things we are exposed to? 00:28:59 Speaker 2: No, I mean, personally, like how do I find it? 00:29:02 Speaker 1: Like, Maybe if you want to share how you found it, but also for people who are listening and kind of struggling with like, okay, I have access to all of these like elective screenings and wearables and data. How do I like kind of get to a happy medium with all of this? 00:29:14 Speaker 2: Yes, I think definitely that's a conversation for folks and their healthcare professionals to see like, maybe talk to them and say, these are like five different things I'm thinking about using, which ones would you recommend? But I also think like, we don't need

to have everything, right? We don't need to have every single wearable item And maybe like there's one that you can use for a little bit and see how that impacts your life. But I think that really being... thoughtful about what we're doing and whether or not it's improving our overall wellbeing or just making us anxious. But again, like this is a conversation, you know, do your research, talk to your healthcare professional, find out like, also what is the evidence behind some of these things? So even like the elective screenings, like, is this something that is just going to give me extra information so that I don't have to worry? Or is this something that actually I truly need to make sure that I'm healthy? 00:30:10 Speaker 1: So, Dr. Blackstock, I want to have a conversation because you've talked about encouraging people to do their research a couple of times. And that is, you know, kind of standard practice. But the concern, I think, is that like even some of these like health companies or elective testings or the wearables, like there will typically be... a physician who maybe serves as a medical advisor. And so I think when many of us see that, it feels like, okay, you know, like somebody who knows what those big words mean, right? Like they're signing off on this. And so maybe this is something that I can trust, but I think what the pandemic has exposed us to is that not all physicians are created equal, right? Like some people are just out here just, you know, with foolishness, right? And so how do we like Because it's not enough to just trust a physician anymore. So what's the next level of doing our research and getting that we have to take? 00:31:01 Speaker 2: And I understand. And before I go into that, I want to say even I was offered a brand partnership recently with a longevity brand that has supplements. And so I was doing my research on that. And I finally said, no, I can't do this because... this doesn't feel like it's an alignment with my values because a lot of this is not evidence-based and we're telling people that they're going to live longer and all that. And we don't really have the evidence for that. But when you talk about doctor, there are health doctors and other health professionals that are working for these companies and who to trust. So A few things. One, I always tell people, you know, definitely a lot of medical centers, hospitals, they have their patient information page. They have a lot of, you know, they have a lot of the Mayo Clinic does a lot, you know, in Rochester, Minnesota, they have a lot of really interesting information about health. And so if you're looking for health information, the first place I send people is health centers, because they're most likely to have evidence-based non-biased health information. I used to say the CDC, but now we can't, unfortunately. 00:32:14 Speaker 1: Yes. 00:32:15 Speaker 2: The other one I would say is local health departments. And there's some more than others, depending on where you're located. But for example, New York City Health Department, people get information on that website and go anywhere around the country to that website. But we know that it's one of the oldest health departments, but also lots of evidence-based information on their website to look at. And then there are some community-based organizations like Hip Hop Public Health, which I always want to give a shout out to that has a lot of really great videos and health information on them. But I always want to say that make sure that you're vetting who you get information from. So hospitals and health systems, local health departments, and then community-based organizations. 00:33:03 Speaker 1: Got it. More from our conversation after the break. And can you say more about like just wading through the Instagram TikTok threads of it all, right? Where we are inundated with so much health information and people like you who are like credible, like you are sharing information on these platforms. And so it's you, but it's also other people. Like how do we kind of know how to wade through the credible health information? 00:33:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I will say this, what they found is that online there are like, Probably between 10 and 15 social media accounts that disseminate the most misinformation. And usually those are not healthcare professionals. And so I would say follow the healthcare professionals, but also look them up. see what their background is, what are their degrees in, where did they get training in? Are there any red flags that you see based on brand partnerships or anything that they've had with other companies? But it really is, it's interesting because there's a trust in health barometer that just came out from Edelman, which is a communications firm. And they found that people are following for health, a lot of influencers who are They may not be health professionals, but people are connected to them and want to follow them because they have a similar lived experience. They may have a similar illness that the person had, right? They may have endometriosis. And we know that that hasn't been studied well, right? And so they follow this person. But I think people have to keep in mind that, well, this is a person that went through this experience and is an expert in their body. They may not necessarily be an expert in that field or fund of knowledge, right? And so it's really helping people differentiate between who is an influencer, who is a health professional that has the background that you can get information from. 00:35:11 Speaker 1: You know, we had a similar conversation on the podcast recently just around mental health content, right? And that, you know, of course, lived experience has a place, right? Like you want to feel not alone. 00:35:21 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 00:35:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's real benefit, but there's also real benefit to listening to people who have studied this and have more than an N of one

to compare symptoms and talk about prognosis. And like, there are just lots of different things that I think come into the picture that maybe people don't even know that they don't know. What would you say to maybe other physicians who are thinking about sharing information online? What kinds of maybe best practices would you offer? 00:35:47 Speaker 2: So one, I actually wish there would be more, and I've seen it increase, more physicians and healthcare professionals, nurses, physician assistants, nurse midwives. I've seen people, more health professionals, with accounts sharing information. And that's what I love, because I feel like in this, especially in the moment that we've been in the last few years, again, now, where there's so much misinformation and disinformation, we really need health professionals, especially of color, to be that voice of reason, the adult in the room, the person that is giving information information that is relevant to our communities. To me, that is so incredibly important. And I would just say for other health professionals, one thing that I do is I never want to talk down to people. This is just more about like, this is what I think is interesting. This is how I think this information can help you. And this is how I want to say in a way, because also the other thing is in terms of health literacy, most health information should be conveyed at between a fourth and sixth grade And a lot of times that's not the case. A lot of times there's so much information and then the way that it is conveyed in just a very high level way, people don't understand, right? And I get it. So that's the other piece I would recommend to people is like making sure that if you're trying to speak to the public, if you're trying to speak to certain communities, that you do it in a way and you're explaining things in a way that people can understand and take that information and use it in a helpful way. 00:37:26 Speaker 1: Got it. 00:37:26 Speaker 2: Got it. 00:37:27 Speaker 1: What tips might you offer for somebody who realizes like, hey, I really want to improve my health literacy? Like, what does that look like? What could I start doing to improve health literacy? 00:37:36 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's such a great question. I feel like I want to say that it starts actually hyper local and local, like even going to a lot of local health departments, they have community health fairs, they have a lot of activations. So even going to those events, whether it's in your community or nearby community, getting to know the folks that work at the health department. There are a lot of folks that are community navigators that have relationships with community-based organizations, but just sort of like getting to know Those folks getting to know what are the organizations that they associate with that can be supportive and helpful to people. And then also asking them where they get their information from as well. Like who are their trusted messengers?

Because I think in terms of health, we're seeing that it's not just typical health professionals. It's community health workers. It's patient navigators. It's other folks in the community that are doing work in a way that's not so traditional. 00:38:38 Speaker 1: You've already mentioned, Dr. Blackstock, how so much trust has been eroded. You know, that was difficult, I think, even before the pandemic for the Black community. It definitely got further eroded through the pandemic. We know so many Black women have had traumatic experiences with physicians, their feelings being dismissed, symptoms, you know, kind of being minimized. What do you feel like is the responsibility of the medical institutions to try to regain and rebuild that trust? 00:39:02 Speaker 2: Well, it's so interesting that you mentioned this because I literally just wrote an op-ed for MSNOW, formerly MSNBC, but it's about how medical mistrust, that term, it needs to go because it places the blame on Black patients. Like, what's your problem? Why don't you trust the healthcare system? What it should be What have institutions done? Well, we know what institutions have done. to not gain our trust, but what are they doing to gain our trust? It's more about institutional untrustworthiness, right? And so I talk about in the piece, there's actually a study that we just all found out about from the 1960s, federally sponsored study involving the RSV vaccine that enrolled Black infants in And the parents didn't know. And the babies ended up dying. And the parents found that out only a few years ago. And now they're suing the government. Right. So here we're still finding more and more stories of our communities, our babies being being exploited in their lives. placed at risk dying, right? And then I also wrote about the piece that Find a Black Doctor directory is now, there's a lawsuit against it for not allowing a white doctor, but that is, the Find a Black Doctor directory is a response to the way that we've been treated and continue to be treated by healthcare institutions, right? That's us trying to protect ourselves, right? So how I think about it is, is that healthcare institutions cannot place a burden on patients. They have to center patient voices, patient concerns, community's concerns. They cannot operate in a silo. They cannot not acknowledge past harm. They cannot acknowledge what happens in current day when we interface with the healthcare system. All of that we have to talk about openly. There has to be accountability for it. There has to be action, right? Like, We can't wait till there's a pandemic and tell people, OK, now you got to take this vaccine. People like, excuse me, what, why? And then be rolling out vaccines from the hospital first. That, you know, it's like we have to think about community first and foremost, always. 00:41:23 Speaker 1: Dr. Blackstock, how do you feel like you've seen health institutions be impacted by like all of the DEI rollbacks? Have you seen that? Yes, yes. 00:41:34 Speaker 2: That's like the essence of the work that I do, the advancing health equity. And I would say that last year, what I saw was that there were so many organizations that just got scared. They didn't have the courage. So I would say got scared, didn't have the courage, didn't have the courage. And some of them honestly weren't really ever committed, really truly committed to DEI and health equity in the first place. But there are some organizations that I'm so proud that we are working with that are still very much committed. And I think what I will say is post-2020, the fact that we started talking about racial health inequities, gotcha, Barcelona, that was something, right? But then we need to have strategy. We need to make sure that that is operationalized, that equity is operationalized, right? And so... what we see is when last year happened, so many organizations were like, okay, we're getting rid of this. 00:42:34 Speaker 1: Right. 00:42:34 Speaker 2: But the fact is that doesn't erase the fact that the inequities still exist and are even getting worse. 00:42:41 Speaker 1: Right. 00:42:41 Speaker 2: And so they have to be, I mean, I can't imagine how can you be a healthcare institution and not concerned about the wellbeing of all your patients? Because if not anything, if you don't care about the moral imperative, at least you should care about the business imperatives. Because there is a return on investment when you invest in people's health, right? That actually you spend less on the hospital costs are less, spending less on chronic illnesses. So if you at least don't care about human beings as human beings, if you care about the business side, there's an argument for that too. So I will say that we are in, as you know, very difficult time that I think we need to still hold healthcare institutions accountable and say, what are you going to do about these inequities that we see? 00:43:28 Speaker 1: Yeah. If there was one thing that you wanted every listener to walk away from this conversation, kind of knowing about preventative health or about thinking about their health, maybe more proactively, what would it be? 00:43:40 Speaker 2: I want us to really prioritize not just our health, but our wellbeing. And when I say that is that in order for us to be great partners, great parents, great siblings, daughters, we really have to put ourselves first when it comes to not just our health, our physical health, but our mental well-being. You know, I think a lot of times, you know, we're not socialized like that. We're socialized to put everybody else first. And so I want to make sure people are getting their screenings, like their recommended screenings. So if you have a family history that has to happen earlier, Making sure that you're going to your appointments, making sure that you are listening to your body. If something doesn't feel right, making sure that you're going to get that checked out. If someone

doesn't listen to you, go to somebody else, right? That we really have to put ourselves first because... We can't be there for the other people in our lives. We can't walk in our purpose, enjoy life if we don't take care of ourselves. So I just want to remind us of that. I know that's easier said than done, but I want to say that we deserve that. We deserve that. Absolutely. 00:44:54 Speaker 1: Hmm. And what's next for you, Dr. Blackstock? I know you've been doing such incredible work with your organization, but what can we expect next from you? 00:45:03 Speaker 2: So actually, I have this past year just dealing with all of the political climate and everything, still doing the work with advancing health equity, but just had some clarity on kind of how I want to use my time. So I kind of got to do a little bit less on my consulting business, but still have an impact in that way. But I want to spend more time writing. I'm hopefully I'll have my Second book deal this year. I want to continue speaking. I want to continue supporting leaders in the health equity space, especially as they go through this difficult time. I wanted to do something for myself. So I started playing the violin again. I'm playing 90s R & B. So just finding things that fill my soul. Yes, because this work is hard, as you know. And so I want to make sure that I'm also taking care of myself as well. And my soul. 00:45:51 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. And remind us where we can stay connected with you. Where can we grab a copy of your first book, but also stay tuned for news of the second one. 00:46:00 Speaker 2: Thank you. So I'm on all social media platforms, some variation of my name, Uche Blackstock. My website is ucheblackstock.com and Legacy can be purchased online. Anywhere books are sold. And hopefully I'll have some good news for you all later this year on the second book. Perfect. 00:46:18 Speaker 1: We will be waiting for you to celebrate that good news with you. 00:46:21 Speaker 2: Thank you. 00:46:22 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us again, Dr. Blackstock. 00:46:24 Speaker 2: Thank you, Dr. Joy. 00:46:29 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr. Blackstock was able to join me for this conversation. To learn more about her and her work, be sure to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com slash session487. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at memo.fm slash therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Ndechubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.