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You saved my day many times, and you ran away.
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Yes, I broke my promise.
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I have been dishonest to you.
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You are the master of my plan.
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Then you then took my hand, and I've come home.
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Yes.
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Welcome to another episode of The Warlocker Show, the interview
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episodes where we talk about.
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Looking around and find out in real life.
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I'm Chuck. I'm Clay.
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Yeah, there you go. And we're here with Major Scott Husing.
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This is the part two. Scott was on a little
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bit ago talking about his book, Echo and Ramadi. How
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are you, Scott?
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Good.
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Thanks for having me back. This is good.
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We're happy to have you back. Tom's going to be
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joining us soon.
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We were just shooting the shit backstage and you guys
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are making fun.
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Of my teal shirt.
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And your mustache.
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And my mustache.
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I happen to like both of them. They're incongruent in
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most military circles.
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First of all, the only reason why I feel comfortable
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wearing teal is because I had to find out real
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quick in boot camp if there was any bit of,
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you know, gayness inside of me.
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There was not.
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I am very confident in my abilities as a man,
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and I like the color, too.
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Okay.
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No, but it's all fun and games.
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It's good.
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We all rib each other. That's what being in the
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military is like. ribbing each other.
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That's what's great about these podcasts.
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You know, I was, I was thinking about this, you guys, uh,
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when we did the episode first, I think it was
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like right after the show, you're like, Oh yeah, let's
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come back on and hang out again. But that's really
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all this is like in doing so many different shows
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and especially the military podcast. It's, it's not uncomfortable at all.
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Most people might think like, Oh, you have to prepare
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for it.
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No, we don't.
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We don't prepare anything. It's all raw and unvarnished most times. Yes,
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there's a lot of, you know, ball busting, a lot
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of gay jokes, especially for the Marines in the room.
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You know, we just are merciless. We eat our own
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for breakfast. But again, for me, it's like another opportunity
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just to hang out with my own tribe. So I
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know everybody always gets it like, oh, do you miss
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being in the military? Because I was in for 24 years.
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I'm like, no, not really, man, because I'm always hanging
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around dudes.
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Who you know served you know for four or 24
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years and we still stay very connected in this circle
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especially in entertainment or in you know meeting clay we
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were pen pals for for all intents and purposes on
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linkedin and yeah a client i'm teaching now it's like
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hey you know this guy clay novak i'm like yeah
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i think i do as a matter of fact and
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then come to find out he reminded me who tom
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and chuck were i was like because i had a
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total brain fart i was like yeah i didn't find
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that email so he'd He gave me the straight azimuth and,
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you know, got me dialed in.
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But it's just a lot of fun. Oh, yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I'll tell you, you know, I've done some public
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speaking on veteran suicide prevention. And one of the things
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that I always tell folks is that, you know, if
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you spend any amount of time in the military, it
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doesn't have to be, you know, you did 24, I
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did 27. Chuck, what did you do, six?
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I did four.
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You did four. Okay. It doesn't matter. Like we are
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social people and the military is a social environment. And
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so I think one of the things that goes unaddressed
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in the whole 22 a day effort reduction
Load full transcript
of that
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is when people get out of the military, they've got
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to find a tribe. It doesn't have to be a
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tribe full of former military folks, but you got to
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find a tribe. Uh, because I think that that belonging,
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that sense of belonging, the, the buddies, the bros, like Chuck,
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you found it, you know, in the, um, you know,
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in the police departments, that kind of thing. But I've
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told people, I don't give a shit if it's your
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Sunday softball league, right? If you can find people of
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the same mindset, shared interests that you can belong and
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be a part of, I think that is such a
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huge part of that whole thing. And you're right, Scott.
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Like I've done a million of these podcasts, probably like
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you have too, promoting books and all that stuff. And
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these are guys that you don't know. And as soon
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as you sit down and start talking military stuff, It's
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like you're right back in it and everybody's cool.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And honestly, we tend to gravitate to it. Not to
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say that we don't have friends that are outside of
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that that circle.
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Right.
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That have never served or anything like that.
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But we tend to find ourselves gravitating a lot towards,
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you know, former military members. And the moment you find
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out when someone you've already kind of jived with.
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Right.
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And you find out that they were, you know, prior
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military or they're a Marine or something like that.
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All of a sudden that bond just gets that much
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thicker and they get stronger.
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And if things go from zero to 100 really fast and,
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you know, then it's, it's, it's honestly, it makes for
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a better friendship too, in my opinion.
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And then I've noticed it so many more times where
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people are more reserved and then they find out you were.
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In the military and that they were in the military
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and then all of a sudden new person emerges and
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you're like, wow, this happened.
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Awesome.
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And it's all for the best.
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And I love it.
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It's great.
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Honestly, have you guys found that out? I know you
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guys are both in the military and you're both officers.
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Clay, you're in the Army.
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Scott, Marine Corps.
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I know the Lance Corporal Underground and the Marine Corps
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Underground was a.
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Real thing in the enlisted ranks and all that stuff,
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especially when you got out. Do you still find that
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to be the case outside? Just like the whole military.
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Underground type of thing, like Marine Corps underground, uh, helps
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you get places or the moment someone finds out that
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you were in the Marine Corps or you were in
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the army or something like that, or you're in a
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certain unit in the army, it helps you get places
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or they help you navigate career paths or something like that.
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Do you find that it's still the case, um, out
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in the real world?
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Oh, a hundred, a hundred percent. It's, uh, something you
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kind of take.
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For granted, especially when you're in for, you know, over
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20 years, uh, and thinking that you're never going to
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fall back on that mafia. You never really feel, I
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think you're going to feel as insulated and as tight
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knit as you do on active duty. And again, whether
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it's four years or 24 years, I don't care. But
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if you reach out and connect to different people, once
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you leave the military, it's still there.
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You know, I, I spent a.
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Tour in Yuma, Arizona as a instructor. I was a
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department head. It's the Marine Corps version of Top Gun.
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We basically, as the token grunts in the schoolhouse, run
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two classes a year, teach the pilots how not to
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drop bombs on the guys on the ground. It's obviously
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a little more graduate level than that, but that duty assignment,
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I went kicking and screaming to that job, but it
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showed me it was one of the best opportunities I'd
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ever been presented with. Those connections, I still have to
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this day. I still rely on them. talk to those folks. Uh,
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my boss who I have a fitness support from is
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Gary Thomas and he lives just North of me here
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in North Texas. And we had lunch a couple months
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ago talking about some stuff that I had going on.
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And he was a former assistant commandant of the Marine Corps.
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And he's, you know, just wants to go to barbecue
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one day. We're like, yeah, let's go do it. So
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if you make the effort, I think everything in life
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is clay intimated. Like, we worked in a people business
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for so long. And if you forget that at any
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point after you leave the military, you're going to suffer.
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I think you suffer personally. I think you suffer in
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your career, maybe financially. You have to be a people person.
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Obviously we can't use the same unvarnished approach and big
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club that we use in the, especially in the Marine
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Corps when dealing with a lot of people that have
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never experienced that type of environment. But I feel like
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I have to, constantly cultivate relationships. Not internally pressured to
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do so. I feel it's my responsibility to sustain myself.
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I know that it's just like when any of us
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were in boot camp. You don't get mail unless you
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send mail. If you're not constantly asking people to reconnect
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or hang out or ask them for favors. I ask
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people for favors all the time. What's the point of
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having some semblance of success if you're not asking other
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people for favors, you know, because it's going to come
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back and, you know, in some way, shape or form,
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because people ask me for favors.
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All the time.
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But yeah, I find that staying connected
to those I
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serve with and it comes back to the new generation, too,
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that it's not just a bumper sticker about our responsibility
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to inspire this next generation.
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We really have a huge responsibility to do that.
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And I think Guys that cocoon themselves and like, I
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don't want to talk about it. They put themselves on
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a shelf. You're really not helping the next generation understand this.
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None of this we have here today, the bullshitting and
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the ball busting and sharing great stories and you know,
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being storytellers in a podcast or as an author, that
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wouldn't have been possible had we not joined the military.
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And you don't have to join the military to do that,
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but we definitely benefited from it.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah.
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Being a leader in the military, right?
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You guys are both officers.
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I know, Scott, you were prior enlisted. What was some
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of the hardest.
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Things both of you guys had to deal with being
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an officer and some of the best things?
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And how has that helped you transition when you got out.
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Of the military into like the private sector and world
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and being successful?
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Yeah, I think tragedy and training. I think everybody, when
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you go to combat and, you know, you know, Scott,
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I'm sure you did. I mean, we're the generation. We
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all went right. You did Ramadi. What am I talking about?
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But like, you know, when you go to combat, fatalities,
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tragedy in combat is not something that is easy to
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deal with. It's not something you look forward to, but
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it's kind of understood as you go, right? Tragedy in
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training or outside of combat is one of those things that,
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you know, intrinsically being in the military for a long
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time is always a risk, right? I was a paratrooper
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for 10 years. You do live fire exercises. You do
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all those. It's
dangerous work that you do even in training.
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But it's hard to accept and manage tragedy outside of combat.
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It's a different kind of acceptance, right? It's a different
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kind of management. And I would tell you that for
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a leader to guide your organization through tragedy, any tragedy,
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but tragedy in training is a different kind of thing
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that you've got to guide them through because tragedy It's
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it again, it's not one of those things that you anticipate.
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It's not, you know, you just assume, oh, it's training.
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Everything's cool. Maybe somebody will get hurt. Maybe, you know,
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it's not a big deal, but a tragedy in training
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and the way folks deal with that, especially guys who
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have done multiple combat tours.
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Right.
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So you do multiple combat tours and you come home
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and you're back home and everything is, quote unquote, safe.
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And then you have a fatality in training of a
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guy who maybe survived a couple of combat tours on
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his own. And you're like, this is really, really fucked up.
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And so to guide an organization through that, to deal
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with that through their own, you know, emotions and challenges. And,
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you know, if you can guide an organization through that,
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I think anything, very few things on the civilian sector
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are more difficult than that. And that's that's my opinion.
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Oh, wow. That's a great take.
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I've never I've never I've never heard it like that before.
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Scott, what do you think?
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What up?
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Worked in the private sector for a little bit after
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I retired, I used to get all these young 20-somethings.
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And they're all up in Hollywood and LA and they'd
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quote me a lot.
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I'd say stuff, these colloquialisms that we say in the
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Marine Corps especially. But they weren't alone. I've heard this often. Hey,
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you don't look like the typical... door kicking, grunt, and
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you're always so calm. Nothing ever
seems to bother you.
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I always used to remind them at the beginning and
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end of every day, no one's bleeding. That perspective, and
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Clay nailed one of the hardest things as a leader
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to continue to train outside of deployments, outside of combat,
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and continue to keep your troops focused in light of
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a tragedy, a mishap, that happens stateside or overseas training,
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that's a tough thing to do. That, that's a real challenge,
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but we, we gain this unique perspective of seeing some
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of the worst because let's face it, the things we do,
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especially grunts or pilot, anything, just being in the military,
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I don't care what your job is.
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It's inherently dangerous.
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It's not like working at Mitsubishi or IBM or state
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farm insurance. It's just, very high risk. And we accept
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those risks at a very young age. And then the
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people we lead to try and put them in a
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position where they can own that responsibility of how, how
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grave the situation is when they're out there and they're
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responsible for the lives of 18, 19 year old kids.
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And sometimes you're telling this to guys who are no
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more than 24 year old lieutenants or, or, maybe 25-year-old staff.
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Sergeants who we view as these salty, seasoned individuals.
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They're so young.
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They are.
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They're so, so very young. And it's a young man's game.
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Now I look at pictures on social media of these
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guys who are majors and lieutenant colonels, and I'm even
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looking at them like, man, these guys look so young.
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I was like, well, and I was even older than
295
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most majors because I was prior enlisted. But it's a
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very high-risk endeavor that we sign up for. But the
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responsibility as a leader to.
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Take that on and then.
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Really educate and show those you lead, the managers especially,
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whether they're enlisted, senior enlisted, or officers, the importance of
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the decisions they make. I think being a great communicator
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is probably– one of the things I learned early on
303
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in my career, thanks to some great leaders and becoming
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a better listener. And trust me, it's not lost on me.
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The fact that I'm a guy that runs his mouth
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in front of audiences of, you know, a thousand or 5,000 people,
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any podcasts and radio shows, like.
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You have to be a good listener. And I'm not
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a natural listener either. I had to learn it.
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So being a great listener is probably something that I
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think most leaders either were never taught or, maybe they
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had it, you know, built into them at an early
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age and they're the lucky ones.
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Yeah.
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I couldn't agree with that more.
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I think that's, you guys both hit two really good
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heads on, on, on that, like kind of what makes
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a leader. I feel like there's far too many people,
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especially in the civilian sector.
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Right.
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And I'm still, I'm civilian, but it's also working for.
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The government as well too.
323
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So there's a lot of, lot of prior military and
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stuff like that. But I find that all the, like the,
325
00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:34.500
we call them managers, first line managers. And I always say,
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you're in a leadership position. You need to be a leader,
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not a manager. Stop managing people, start leading them. You
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manage inanimate objects, papers, things like that.
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You lead the people. There's a big difference between manager
330
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and leading or being a manager and being a leader.
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And I feel like they lose sight on that.
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And, you know, just having to experience like tragedy or
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something like that, or having to counsel someone through something
334
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like that, or having to be a good listener. I
335
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feel like that's, it falls on deaf ears sometimes inside
336
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of these organizations outside of the military or just private
337
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sector stuff.
338
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And they, they, they don't ever go to any leadership schools.
339
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They don't really get taught.
340
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And they just think if, you know, Hey, if I
341
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tell people what to do and, you know, all these things,
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that's what I'm supposed to do.
343
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And it's, it's far more than that. I feel like
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people will be saying that.
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Yeah.
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Well, hello, everyone.
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I'm glad I could finally get here. It took me
348
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a minute at my work meeting, ran a little late.
349
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So I apologize for my day life getting in the
350
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way of what we're all doing here. But I love
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the question of what's the difference between leadership and management.
352
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And Clay, I heard you kind of agreeing with that.
353
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I was curious to know, where do you fall on
354
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what the key differences are?
355
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So I'll give you an example. Like in my post,
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my first post-retirement job, you know, I was, I worked in,
357
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I managed a $ 10 million branch for a pest control
358
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company in Philadelphia, but it was during COVID and it
359
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was during the riots. And so, you know, I had,
360
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I had two technicians who were in a business. They
361
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went in to do a, you know, pest control treatment
362
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and they walked in, everything was cool. And they went
363
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to walk out and the riot had been, you know,
364
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in the 15 minutes, literally that they were inside this business,
365
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the riot came down the street and they got trapped
366
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in there.
367
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Right.
368
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And so thankfully they were safe. Thankfully, you know, their
369
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trucks were undamaged and all that kind of stuff, but
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they came back to the office and they were a
371
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little shook.
372
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Right.
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So of course, you know, I go into like crisis
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management mode and all the things that we can do preventatively. Right.
375
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It's all the things that Scott and I learned, you know,
376
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leading larger organizations in combat, you try and prep as
377
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many things as you possibly can, right? To take, because
378
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you know, when, when something happens, you want to have
379
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all the play, you want to have all the cards set,
380
00:19:01.869 --> 00:19:05.289
everything's ready to go, because that takes all the pressure off, right?
381
00:19:05.369 --> 00:19:08.930
It's like having good standard operating procedures, SOPs, right? They
382
00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.250
relieve a lot of that stress. So I went to
383
00:19:11.289 --> 00:19:13.960
my organization, my boss and his boss, two levels up,
384
00:19:13.990 --> 00:19:17.450
and I'm like, listen, We need to prepare a few things.
385
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:19.650
Here's what happened to a couple of my guys. Here's
386
00:19:19.670 --> 00:19:22.650
some things that I recommend that we do within the organization, right?
387
00:19:22.730 --> 00:19:24.950
And one of them was like, we probably need to
388
00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:27.619
get the HR lady or we didn't really have a
389
00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:30.480
public affairs, but I'm like, if we have someone get
390
00:19:30.619 --> 00:19:35.240
injured or worse while working, we need to have some
391
00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:41.609
messaging prepared, not just for that individual or that branch,
392
00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:44.849
but the whole company and that individual's family. Like we
393
00:19:44.890 --> 00:19:47.460
need to prep this stuff. We can't be off the
394
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.670
cuff trying to deal with that stuff. We need to
395
00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:51.809
have a. plan on how are we, you know, what
396
00:19:51.869 --> 00:19:53.819
kind of benefits are we going to, you know, kind
397
00:19:53.859 --> 00:19:56.170
of carry through in case somebody gets hurt in the
398
00:19:56.230 --> 00:19:58.460
line of duty. These are pest control guys, right? They're not,
399
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:01.640
you know I said, we need to like start communicating
400
00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:03.700
with the union. What's the union going to do? Cause
401
00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:05.759
they were all union guys. What's the union going to do?
402
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:06.400
Right.
403
00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:09.250
And, and, You know, so I'm trying to work through
404
00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:12.710
all this stuff. And at first I thought that they
405
00:20:12.730 --> 00:20:15.970
were trying to take everything in, absorb it, and then,
406
00:20:16.269 --> 00:20:19.930
you know, kind of make some decisions. They were literally nodding,
407
00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:23.049
nodding off, like not falling asleep, but like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
408
00:20:23.069 --> 00:20:24.630
This isn't a big deal. It's never going to happen.
409
00:20:24.650 --> 00:20:26.190
If it does, we'll deal with it when it happens.
410
00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:29.140
And that, Tom, is the difference
between managers and leaders
411
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.519
right there. I knew watching them, watching their reaction to
412
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.859
everything that I was saying, was all about management and
413
00:20:38.019 --> 00:20:42.160
zero about leadership. Because they didn't even want to try
414
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.299
to prepare to lead an organization through what potentially could
415
00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:48.400
be one of the worst situations they would ever have
416
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.960
to go through. Didn't even want to get involved with it.
417
00:20:51.009 --> 00:20:53.529
They would rather put it off and set it aside
418
00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:56.509
and just hope that it doesn't happen and cross their fingers.
419
00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:59.029
And that is management versus leadership.
420
00:21:00.410 --> 00:21:01.369
Scott, what say you on that?
421
00:21:02.470 --> 00:21:06.619
Well, I'm a big... fan of Covey. I like his
422
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.470
writings and, you know, he famously with his cohorts, you know,
423
00:21:11.829 --> 00:21:13.930
managers know how to do things right.
424
00:21:14.049 --> 00:21:15.210
Leaders do the right thing.
425
00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:18.880
And we like to think we're the masters of that
426
00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:22.619
in the military because of our title position rank and
427
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.960
all the honorifics that go alongside those things. But there's
428
00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:31.809
also a lot of examples in the last 20 years from,
429
00:21:32.569 --> 00:21:36.119
from our, our generation, our career, where we've seen in
430
00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:42.460
the news cycle of senior enlisted leaders, general officers, all officers,
431
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.259
military dudes of any rank who have really thrown their
432
00:21:47.299 --> 00:21:51.660
guys under the bus. And, you know, I've seen plenty
433
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.410
of examples of shitty leadership. I think it's made me
434
00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:59.569
a better leader and at least more circumspect in how
435
00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:02.529
I approach problem solving when things like that happen. And
436
00:22:02.609 --> 00:22:05.400
I don't care if, again, if it's, you know, Bad
437
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:09.440
things happen in any environment. I mean, as Clay's telling
438
00:22:09.460 --> 00:22:11.059
the story, I'm thinking, you know, what's going to happen
439
00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:13.460
in pest control? I'm thinking about Steve Zahn and saving
440
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:14.839
Silverman the raccoon.
441
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:18.559
I love that. Bad things can happen.
442
00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:25.089
But we sometimes talk out of both sides of our mouth.
443
00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:28.910
And I was reminded of that recently as I was
444
00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:32.390
working with a new client who's a Marine, of course.
445
00:22:33.269 --> 00:22:36.269
Not that I work only with Marines, but Nick Kaufman
446
00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:40.569
wrote this amazing story that I just got him a
447
00:22:40.609 --> 00:22:43.230
deal for. It's called Friendly Fire, and it's the story
448
00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:47.079
of the MARSOC-3, which is this incredible story of these
449
00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:55.400
three highly trained, high-ranking enlisted operators that were in Uzbekistan,
450
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.859
low-threat environment. They got into this kerfuffle with a former
451
00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:02.220
Green Beret, who weighed 270 pounds, by the way, drunk
452
00:23:02.430 --> 00:23:05.839
outside of the tea bar in Erbil, Guy takes a
453
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.759
swing at him. One of the Marsock three comes in,
454
00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:11.279
defends his friend, knocks him down.
455
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:12.380
He's out cold.
456
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:17.539
Medical treatment ensues, and the guy aspirates and dies on
457
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:20.759
his own vomit, but not because of the punch, because of.
458
00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:25.940
The botched medical care. Well, that's the prelude. The whole
459
00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:26.759
story is great.
460
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.519
I can't wait for the book to come out next year,
461
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:32.539
but as I'm reading through it, And as a Marine,
462
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.440
of course, I'm reading through this. And what's great about
463
00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:40.619
Nick Kaufman, too, is he's a journalist. And he was
464
00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:44.200
the only journalist that sat through the entire MARSOC III
465
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.470
trial that took place from these Camp Lejeune warriors.
466
00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:48.609
Up in Cherry Point, North Carolina.
467
00:23:49.430 --> 00:23:53.009
And as I'm reading it, I'm reading names of guys
468
00:23:53.089 --> 00:23:56.250
I know, guys whose names I have fitness reports on
469
00:23:56.309 --> 00:23:58.970
probably buried deep in a box here in my studio.
470
00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:03.589
And I thought to myself, man, I never thought he
471
00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:06.170
would have made a leadership decision like that. And it
472
00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:10.490
really went against some of my own personal feelings towards
473
00:24:10.529 --> 00:24:16.549
those individuals, even though most of them, I still do.
474
00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:20.380
I think they're phenomenal leaders, but that singular decision in
475
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:24.440
this case that Nick does such a superb job of highlighting,
476
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:26.740
it was kind of shocking to me.
477
00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:29.970
It all ties in. I'm not trying to.
478
00:24:29.950 --> 00:24:32.630
Promote Nick's book here, although that's my job too as
479
00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:38.289
an agent. It's a great example of managing versus leading.
480
00:24:38.430 --> 00:24:40.480
Just as we think we're the
best leaders on the
481
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:42.180
planet because we go to all these schools, we've got
482
00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:46.579
all this doctrine, all these publications, we have reading lists.
483
00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:50.660
People are people. They feel pressures.
484
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:54.690
Both internally in their organizations and externally on what.
485
00:24:54.930 --> 00:24:57.029
The best optics are going to be. I think that
486
00:24:57.049 --> 00:24:59.599
was the case with these you know, these two.
487
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.829
Gunnies and the senior chief who were just thrown under
488
00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:06.990
the bus and left in the abyss for four years
489
00:25:07.309 --> 00:25:09.910
before they even got their day in court is just,
490
00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:13.230
you know, when you hear the, you hear the case
491
00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:14.950
about the kid that gets kicked out of unit and
492
00:25:14.970 --> 00:25:18.660
he gets sent to the base gym to hand out basketballs. Well,
493
00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.640
Nick writes about this and I says, Hey man, this
494
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.990
sounds like some bullshit hyperbole. was he really handing out
495
00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:28.579
basketballs or was he doing some other collateral duties while
496
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:29.000
he waited for Joe?
497
00:25:29.019 --> 00:25:31.420
He goes, no, he was literally handing out towels and
498
00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:33.079
basketballs at the base.
499
00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:37.740
This is a gunnery Sergeant, a Marsock Raider who the
500
00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:41.240
military and our tax dollars spent millions to train.
501
00:25:41.869 --> 00:25:45.529
So that might be a misallocation of resources right there.
502
00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:46.450
Yeah.
503
00:25:46.789 --> 00:25:50.609
So I, I think when you're talking about managing the
504
00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:55.140
leaders in, in, and like clay, when I transitioned and
505
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.440
I worked in the private sector too, which I can't
506
00:25:57.779 --> 00:26:01.809
talk in detail about, but, um, I think there was
507
00:26:01.829 --> 00:26:04.710
a lot of prior military guys there, but they lost
508
00:26:04.789 --> 00:26:10.950
that culture of what right looks like. And, you know, I, I,
509
00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:13.029
I like to pride myself. I don't think I've ever
510
00:26:13.089 --> 00:26:15.609
lost that. I kind of, I kind of know what
511
00:26:15.650 --> 00:26:19.170
right looks like. I'm kind of the, you know, see something,
512
00:26:19.250 --> 00:26:20.109
say something.
513
00:26:19.829 --> 00:26:23.799
Guy, you know, it's, Which can get you in trouble
514
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:25.039
in this situation.
515
00:26:25.059 --> 00:26:26.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
516
00:26:26.019 --> 00:26:26.380
It can.
517
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.519
It's bitten me in the ass on numerous occasions.
518
00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:32.400
I
was on base at the joint base in Fort
519
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.099
Worth just last week doing a grocery run of all things.
520
00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:37.549
And I walk in. The place is like a ghost town.
521
00:26:37.569 --> 00:26:41.130
But there's probably a six or seven-year-old girl sitting on
522
00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:44.490
a stool by the little kiosks out front. They're all
523
00:26:44.529 --> 00:26:46.730
closed down. No one's working. This little girl is just
524
00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:49.250
sitting there. So I go to the front gate attendant.
525
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:51.819
there's a female, ask her, ask one of the cashiers.
526
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:52.339
There's a family.
527
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:54.339
So I said, who does this little girl belong to?
528
00:26:54.819 --> 00:26:56.559
And they were looking at me, you know, I felt
529
00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:58.240
like they were giving me the stink eye because I
530
00:26:58.269 --> 00:27:00.769
was bringing this up. I go, no one on any
531
00:27:00.849 --> 00:27:03.750
base in anywhere in the world, even on a base,
532
00:27:04.170 --> 00:27:06.609
should leave a child that young unattended because there are
533
00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:07.190
bad people.
534
00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:10.109
And all I had to think was like, this is
535
00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:12.640
what we do. We have to protect our own. And
536
00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:13.740
I didn't know that little girl.
537
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.549
I didn't know who her mom was, but, Finally, someone
538
00:27:16.589 --> 00:27:19.630
has the moral courage outside of me, not tooting my
539
00:27:19.650 --> 00:27:22.500
own horn. Oh, her mom's in the food court. And
540
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.559
it was an older lady. And I walked down there
541
00:27:24.579 --> 00:27:28.039
and says, ma'am, that is that your daughter or granddaughter?
542
00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:30.240
So she's way too young to be left alone down there.
543
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.789
So she dropped what she was doing. The red light
544
00:27:32.829 --> 00:27:35.049
flashed in her head. She's like, I did the wrong thing.
545
00:27:35.470 --> 00:27:38.170
But, you know, I just I can't walk past that.
546
00:27:38.230 --> 00:27:38.809
I was the guy that.
547
00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:41.619
If I saw some trash on base, I'd be walking
548
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:42.970
and I'd pick it up and they're like, Hey sir,
549
00:27:42.990 --> 00:27:43.730
why are you picking up trash?
550
00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:45.170
I'm like, because it doesn't belong there.
551
00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:47.269
Cause it's sitting there cause it's there.
552
00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:48.049
Exactly.
553
00:27:48.069 --> 00:27:52.789
That's a life of discipline, man. You either are disciplined
554
00:27:52.869 --> 00:27:55.750
or you're not disciplined. There's no such thing as self-discipline
555
00:27:56.289 --> 00:27:57.829
and leading a life like that.
556
00:27:58.589 --> 00:27:59.430
It's uncomfortable.
557
00:28:00.109 --> 00:28:03.900
It's not easy because if it was easy, everybody would
558
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.960
be in the military. Everybody would be doing the hard things. And,
559
00:28:07.309 --> 00:28:09.359
The truth is most people aren't willing to do that.
560
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:14.519
Well, you said discipline or not versus self-discipline.
561
00:28:14.539 --> 00:28:17.700
And that kind of tees up what I think I
562
00:28:17.740 --> 00:28:21.700
wanted to ask as a follow-on to the leadership versus
563
00:28:21.789 --> 00:28:24.970
management question. Because I think there's a world, and you
564
00:28:25.009 --> 00:28:26.549
guys can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but
565
00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:29.670
you can be a good manager and be a terrible leader,
566
00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:34.079
I think. And I think the opposite is also true.
567
00:28:34.099 --> 00:28:36.380
You can be good at management and terrible at leading.
568
00:28:38.059 --> 00:28:42.500
but or vice versa, but he brought up the word discipline.
569
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.980
And one of the things that I've been, it was
570
00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:52.339
kind of chewing on lately conceptually is discipline and punishment.
571
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:52.619
Right.
572
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.849
And, and, and one of the things that I'm looking
573
00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:58.289
at is the root of discipline is disciple, right.
574
00:28:58.450 --> 00:29:00.170
And, and discipline in.
575
00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:05.630
Its essence is to create better discipleship is to create discipleship.
576
00:29:06.579 --> 00:29:09.839
Whereas punishment, the root word is punitive.
577
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.900
It's pain. If you do that again, it's going to
578
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.460
hurt real, real, real bad, right? And so.
579
00:29:20.529 --> 00:29:24.269
Do you think there is some sort of connection there
580
00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:30.809
with leadership and management where there's a discipleship versus punishment?
581
00:29:30.849 --> 00:29:35.490
Because you can punish somebody into... just about doing anything, right?
582
00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:38.630
You can threaten them and have them fear enough to
583
00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:41.539
do just about anything, but that's not discipleship to me.
584
00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:42.980
Where do you guys fall on that?
585
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:49.259
I think.
586
00:29:50.500 --> 00:29:53.740
If I had to think back to something that a
587
00:29:53.779 --> 00:29:56.450
really good friend and sage sergeant major told me, he
588
00:29:56.470 --> 00:30:00.069
told me, shame is a powerful motivator. you should use
589
00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:03.619
it more, sir. And I, cause I was never a yeller, but,
590
00:30:03.710 --> 00:30:06.299
and I never liked it. I never want people to misconstrue.
591
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:08.819
Like I went out to humiliate people or I was
592
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:11.079
any sort of a sycophant or a bully.
593
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:11.700
I was not.
594
00:30:13.059 --> 00:30:18.450
I like to think that my form of punishment was disappointment.
595
00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:23.329
And I would convey that disappointment in a certain way
596
00:30:23.390 --> 00:30:25.849
where almost to the point where I wouldn't have to
597
00:30:25.890 --> 00:30:29.829
say anything. they knew I was disappointed by my reaction
598
00:30:29.869 --> 00:30:33.490
or lack of reaction. And, you know, this happens a
599
00:30:33.509 --> 00:30:35.650
lot for guys who were prior enlisted.
600
00:30:35.769 --> 00:30:39.349
Not a lot. I shouldn't say that. I've seen it happen.
601
00:30:39.049 --> 00:30:43.900
Where they feel they can revert back to being the sergeant. Um,
602
00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:46.000
when it comes time to punish, you know, those in
603
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.759
their charge and I, it doesn't give you a license
604
00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:54.259
again to yell or berate or treat people poorly.
605
00:30:54.339 --> 00:30:56.059
Because we're all on the same team.
606
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:02.039
Um, I've actually had Marines thank me after conducting a
607
00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:05.180
nonjudicial punishment, which is like our version of misdemeanor court
608
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:09.599
that's held at a level. And, you know, I always
609
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:11.240
told them to stand at ease. I always told them
610
00:31:11.259 --> 00:31:13.259
to look me in the eye and just relax. I said,
611
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:15.660
because this is a big day for you. It's going
612
00:31:15.700 --> 00:31:18.329
in your official military file. And when you walk out
613
00:31:18.349 --> 00:31:22.630
that door, I want you to understand, you start building
614
00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:26.220
cool points back once you leave that hatch, right? And
615
00:31:26.589 --> 00:31:28.690
everything here is in the past and you gotta, you
616
00:31:28.710 --> 00:31:31.650
gotta move forward to that. So that's, that's kind of
617
00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:35.789
how I, you know, applied my own, my own discipline.
618
00:31:35.809 --> 00:31:39.710
And I think when you are disciplined, I think as humans,
619
00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:43.960
we want to emulate those who lead a disciplined lifestyle.
620
00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:46.240
I think there's a majority of people that are more
621
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:47.160
disciplined than not.
622
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:52.119
And especially in the military, there's gradients of it, but those,
623
00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:55.390
those that aren't, um, I think we, weed those.
624
00:31:55.220 --> 00:31:57.230
People out pretty fast because we will eat our own
625
00:31:57.269 --> 00:31:57.789
for breakfast.
626
00:31:58.890 --> 00:31:59.130
Yeah.
627
00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:01.970
I think you brought up a good point about shame
628
00:32:02.009 --> 00:32:04.089
and then you qualified it with humiliation. Because to me,
629
00:32:05.430 --> 00:32:07.710
I've always kind of felt that shame is something you
630
00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:10.990
feel internally. Humiliation is something that's done to you or
631
00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:14.900
you do to somebody, right? You can be ashamed of yourself.
632
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:18.180
You can feel shame for your actions just by the
633
00:32:18.259 --> 00:32:19.559
look of somebody you respect.
634
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.420
A good leader can make you feel ashamed with.
635
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:28.549
their disappointment but they don't have to humiliate you for
636
00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:32.130
it right and and humiliation i think is an action
637
00:32:32.170 --> 00:32:34.869
that goes on top of it uh that is that
638
00:32:34.930 --> 00:32:37.670
has that takes the the internal feeling of shame too
639
00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:40.099
far and puts it on display and everybody look at
640
00:32:40.130 --> 00:32:43.960
this person how terrible are they versus hey man you
641
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.500
know you screwed up and i know you feel it
642
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.700
inside right shame is personal i think i don't know
643
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.319
do you guys you guys feel that same.
644
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:53.779
Yeah i think and you've got to find you know,
645
00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:59.180
everybody's different. I think that standardized, you know, punishment, even
646
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:01.769
in the military, I think, you know, and Scott knows this,
647
00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:04.789
we have leeway as commanders for that, especially for that
648
00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:09.190
nonjudicial punishment, not just what you can impose on someone,
649
00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:13.289
but how it's imposed on them and how severe it is.
650
00:33:13.369 --> 00:33:15.109
You have a lot of leeway as a commander to
651
00:33:15.190 --> 00:33:19.359
do those things. But that's not always the answer. Like
652
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:24.039
I had guys, you could give them NJP like over
653
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.680
and over and over again. They don't care about rank.
654
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:27.839
They don't care about money.
655
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:28.160
They don't.
656
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:31.160
So you've got to find the thing that is going to,
657
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.990
you know, turn it over. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes
658
00:33:36.049 --> 00:33:39.210
it's you give them something to be motivated for.
659
00:33:39.789 --> 00:33:40.049
Right.
660
00:33:40.369 --> 00:33:43.710
So that that kind of changes the dynamic. I would
661
00:33:43.750 --> 00:33:45.349
tell you that one of the things that I found
662
00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:49.529
to kind of give leaders, somebody in a leadership position,
663
00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:52.480
a little bit of a a little shake. It's kind of,
664
00:33:52.700 --> 00:33:56.519
it can be very subtle, but if
you take responsibility
665
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:00.880
away from a leader, that sends a message more than
666
00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:05.740
anything else. Especially like, you know, if you want to,
667
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:07.650
if you want to, if you've got an NCO that
668
00:34:07.690 --> 00:34:10.969
you think is of value and has great potential, but
669
00:34:11.010 --> 00:34:14.809
maybe they're not meeting it or whatever, tell them that
670
00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:18.690
you're taking responsibility from them and giving it to an officer.
671
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:24.750
And you watch how that changes the dynamic and their motivation, right?
672
00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:28.909
And it doesn't have to be severe, right? You know,
673
00:34:29.250 --> 00:34:31.230
I had a problem in one of my organizations when
674
00:34:31.250 --> 00:34:34.219
I was a squadron commander that I had, you know,
675
00:34:34.510 --> 00:34:36.699
it was a little bit of a cancer in the
676
00:34:37.219 --> 00:34:41.980
senior NCOs within that organization. And, you know, I told them,
677
00:34:42.019 --> 00:34:45.070
I said, You know, inspections within the military are one
678
00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:48.349
of those things that are heavily reliant upon NCO sergeants
679
00:34:48.409 --> 00:34:49.070
to execute.
680
00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:49.349
Right.
681
00:34:49.829 --> 00:34:51.730
An officer may come in and do a cursory kind
682
00:34:51.769 --> 00:34:53.670
of on top of kind of a thing, but it's
683
00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:56.869
mostly the hard work is done by the sergeants. And
684
00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:01.619
I told that organization that, you know, nothing was inspected
685
00:35:01.659 --> 00:35:04.900
and nothing was improved until an officer did it. And
686
00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:09.000
the NCOs took that as an absolute insult on their professionalism.
687
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:12.309
And that lasted about a week. And then all of
688
00:35:12.329 --> 00:35:15.309
a sudden, that was like the most squared away. Everything
689
00:35:15.349 --> 00:35:18.199
was clean. And it had nothing to do with the officers.
690
00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:20.820
It had everything to do with the NCOs trying to
691
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:26.860
gain that responsibility back and prove themselves to be worthy.
692
00:35:27.219 --> 00:35:31.909
I didn't punish anybody, truthfully. There was no punishment given.
693
00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:34.269
But it was a little bit of embarrassment. It was
694
00:35:34.309 --> 00:35:36.869
a little bit of that kind of thing, a shock
695
00:35:36.909 --> 00:35:39.889
to their professionalism. And that was it. Problem solved.
696
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.599
That was their self-imposed shame based on their omission that
697
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:46.420
you recognize.
698
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.579
So you really Jedi mind trick those fuckers.
699
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.659
Well, I think you're right.
700
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:54.909
Cause there's a component of a leader can say, you
701
00:35:54.989 --> 00:35:58.489
are better than this to somebody in a way, but
702
00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:03.150
then a leader can take actions that make the person feel, Oh.
703
00:36:03.429 --> 00:36:06.150
Man, I'm better than that. I need to be better
704
00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:06.530
than that.
705
00:36:06.650 --> 00:36:06.829
Right.
706
00:36:07.110 --> 00:36:08.030
And they don't have to say it.
707
00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:10.730
The person just, I mean, I used to jokingly say
708
00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:12.199
that the worst thing your parents could say to you
709
00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:13.719
when you walk out of the house is I trust you.
710
00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:18.880
But then I also know people are like, you're an
711
00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:22.480
idiot if you trust me. And that doesn't that doesn't
712
00:36:22.539 --> 00:36:26.380
faze them. But my mom always say my my daughter,
713
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:29.989
my my my sister got like one spanking and I
714
00:36:30.030 --> 00:36:32.269
got every single other spank like.
715
00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:36.110
It just, if we were different kids, right?
716
00:36:36.190 --> 00:36:41.010
Well, different Marines, different soldiers, different personalities, all require different,
717
00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:42.960
you know, it's carrot.
718
00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:46.059
Stick, whatever you want to use, right? I think that's
719
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:46.980
a big part of it, right?
720
00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:51.659
I need to qualify that too, is I wouldn't say
721
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:54.059
these things and be as comfortable saying them if I
722
00:36:54.099 --> 00:36:56.760
had not felt those things at one point in my career,
723
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:01.199
both as an officer and I hadn't done some of
724
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:08.730
those things because, I have barfed my life into 300
725
00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:11.130
pages to be hung on Amazon and Barnes.
726
00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:13.179
And Noble for everybody to read.
727
00:37:13.219 --> 00:37:18.099
I think admitting the failures of being a leader is
728
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.280
probably one of the things that made me feel more human,
729
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.380
not just on activity, but now as I grow and
730
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:28.239
gain even more experience as a lifelong learner is those
731
00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:31.539
are the real opportunities. And honestly, the leaders that I've
732
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:33.059
seen show that type of humility.
733
00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:37.420
Those are the best ones. And they really fall into.
734
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:39.949
Two categories, you know, especially in the Marine Corps is
735
00:37:39.989 --> 00:37:42.789
like the, you know, there's the good ones and then
736
00:37:42.829 --> 00:37:46.030
there's the great ones. And that that's a very fine
737
00:37:46.110 --> 00:37:52.289
line between those two. I
think in most evaluate, you know, evaluations,
738
00:37:52.369 --> 00:37:55.429
if I had to categorize, but I've been there, you know,
739
00:37:55.449 --> 00:37:58.099
and I'm not, I'm talking about shame about things that
740
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.400
I have, you know, felt bad for not doing. And
741
00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:05.739
I think especially in combat or in training, if you
742
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:09.219
fail your Marines, you don't prepare them enough.
743
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.550
You know, it's that guilt you feel or this, you know,
744
00:38:14.570 --> 00:38:15.739
whatever people want to call it.
745
00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:20.070
I think it's really an effect of the things you
746
00:38:20.110 --> 00:38:23.389
wish you could have done. or you should have done
747
00:38:23.449 --> 00:38:25.769
as a leader, knowing that you had the capabilities, but
748
00:38:25.809 --> 00:38:29.440
didn't have the foresight at the time. I'm not talking
749
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:31.900
about the shame where you wake up after a bad
750
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:33.980
night of, you know, drinking too much Scott and you
751
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.559
got to jump in the pool to wash it off.
752
00:38:35.619 --> 00:38:41.159
I'm talking about things that really affect you mentally and psychologically.
753
00:38:41.179 --> 00:38:42.699
Things that have consequences, right?
754
00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:45.719
Absolutely, Tom. I think they.
755
00:38:47.570 --> 00:38:50.610
They serve as building blocks to how you're going to
756
00:38:50.630 --> 00:38:53.329
conduct yourself as a future leader. And if you don't
757
00:38:53.389 --> 00:38:56.989
make those self-corrections and you're not willing to admit those
758
00:38:57.070 --> 00:38:59.699
either to yourself or to a peer or to someone else,
759
00:38:59.909 --> 00:39:02.539
you're going to continue to repeat that type of behavior,
760
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:06.340
that leadership style. And in the end, I think it
761
00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:09.599
doesn't serve the organization. That definitely wouldn't have served me.
762
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:12.219
I know that because I'm a very emotional person. And
763
00:39:12.260 --> 00:39:15.239
that was something I'd struggled with my whole career was
764
00:39:16.630 --> 00:39:19.079
where do I draw that line of, you know, understanding
765
00:39:19.099 --> 00:39:21.579
like I am an emotional person. I, I show my emotions.
766
00:39:21.619 --> 00:39:23.519
I'm not, I would never be a great poker player.
767
00:39:23.539 --> 00:39:26.280
I'd never win big and big. I just wouldn't be there.
768
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:28.280
Oh, go ahead.
769
00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:31.780
No, I just think you need to find that balance.
770
00:39:32.539 --> 00:39:36.079
Well, I think that's super important and that tees up,
771
00:39:36.099 --> 00:39:38.699
I think, where I want to go with this perfectly
772
00:39:38.780 --> 00:39:40.239
because I know we want to get into some of
773
00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:43.449
the stories and I want to know then for both
774
00:39:43.489 --> 00:39:48.070
of you, you know, being downrange, being, you know, in
775
00:39:48.530 --> 00:39:53.989
kinetic environments, right? Um, what can you share if, if
776
00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:56.630
you don't mind, what are some of those? Cause, cause
777
00:39:56.670 --> 00:40:01.949
some leadership mistakes, failures, blind spots, cause they're, they all
778
00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:04.650
happen for different reasons. Sometimes it's our ego that, that,
779
00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:07.250
that does it. Sometimes it's a blind spot that we just,
780
00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:10.159
we don't know what we don't know. Um, and sometimes it's,
781
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:12.940
you thought you had the right thing and then reality
782
00:40:12.980 --> 00:40:14.260
taught you a real quick lesson.
783
00:40:15.380 --> 00:40:18.320
Uh, when, when it's a kinetic situation, can you.
784
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.349
Kind of tell us about one of the times that
785
00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:24.510
sticks out to both of you, whoever wants to go first,
786
00:40:24.550 --> 00:40:28.980
but you're in a kinetic situation and your leadership decision
787
00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:35.840
was quickly corrected by the forces of reality in real time,
788
00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:40.940
because some consequences, some leadership decisions you see over a
789
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.260
longer arc, right? The story arc on your leadership decision,
790
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.619
you see in a little more of a fullness of time,
791
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.269
maybe six months, a year, whatever. And other ones, man, it, it, it,
792
00:40:52.730 --> 00:40:55.409
it comes back right away. So I'd be curious to
793
00:40:55.469 --> 00:40:57.360
know what you, what sticks out to you guys as
794
00:40:57.380 --> 00:40:59.619
some of those, you know, in a kinetic environment, what
795
00:40:59.659 --> 00:41:03.159
are some of those stories that leadership, uh, you felt like, Oh,
796
00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:05.340
I learned that lesson real quick.
797
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.380
Uh, when I was a operations officer in Baghdad, we
798
00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:28.469
were running, um, you know, I had a platoon designated
799
00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:30.710
as my scout platoon was designated for what we would
800
00:41:30.730 --> 00:41:34.250
call TST operations, time sensitive targets. So we would get
801
00:41:34.449 --> 00:41:37.130
a cell phone hit on a bad guy, uh, who
802
00:41:37.170 --> 00:41:39.250
was out, you know, in our, his cell phone got
803
00:41:39.289 --> 00:41:42.030
picked up in our AO and we would get data
804
00:41:42.190 --> 00:41:44.980
on him and, and we would go and run a, uh,
805
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.530
a snatch, a capture operation. to go, to go ball
806
00:41:49.550 --> 00:41:51.130
this guy up, to pull more Intel.
807
00:41:51.170 --> 00:41:51.349
Right.
808
00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:53.510
So I had these, I had this platoon that was
809
00:41:53.550 --> 00:41:55.969
always on standby to do these operations. And I got,
810
00:41:56.110 --> 00:41:58.130
we were running them so often that I got to
811
00:41:58.150 --> 00:42:01.329
the point where I was like, I wasn't even bothering
812
00:42:01.369 --> 00:42:05.690
to tell my boss. And so like one night, you know,
813
00:42:05.710 --> 00:42:08.250
it was kind of late. It was like 10, you know,
814
00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:12.190
probably 2200 or so. And it was seemed like a
815
00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:16.070
very quiet night. And my boss was like, Hey, you know,
816
00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:17.860
and I'm just going to go down. I'm like, all right, sir.
817
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:18.280
Nope.
818
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:20.460
No worries. I'm probably an hour behind you.
819
00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:20.679
Right.
820
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.280
And literally an hour later, as I'm getting ready to
821
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:25.179
walk out the door, we get a, you know, an
822
00:42:25.219 --> 00:42:27.900
alert like, Hey, here's this guy. Here's what we used to,
823
00:42:27.980 --> 00:42:29.239
we call it a baseball card.
824
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:29.519
Right.
825
00:42:29.579 --> 00:42:31.760
So it was his one sheet with all of his
826
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.300
data and his connections and all this stuff. Hey, this
827
00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:36.980
guy's operating at this location. Here's the data that we
828
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.360
picked up off his cell phone, go get him. So
829
00:42:39.380 --> 00:42:41.679
I spin up my scout platoon. I get all the
830
00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:45.639
assets on hand. I, you know, get Apaches on station,
831
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.889
you know, set off offset. So they're not alerting anybody
832
00:42:48.969 --> 00:42:52.090
and we run this raid, but we're partnered with the Iraqis.
833
00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:52.409
Right.
834
00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:55.269
And so it took a little while to get the
835
00:42:55.309 --> 00:42:59.710
Iraqi spun up and two of my kids go, we
836
00:42:59.730 --> 00:43:02.150
were supposed to have, we're at this point, this is 2009.
837
00:43:02.150 --> 00:43:04.809
The Iraqis are supposed to be the first ones in
838
00:43:04.849 --> 00:43:08.590
the door. Right. And so, and we were supposed to
839
00:43:08.630 --> 00:43:13.170
be 50, 50 partnered. And, and I'm getting pressure from above.
840
00:43:13.570 --> 00:43:15.469
The same guys that say you have to be 50-50
841
00:43:15.510 --> 00:43:17.570
partnered are like, what's taking you so long?
842
00:43:17.989 --> 00:43:18.190
Right.
843
00:43:18.210 --> 00:43:20.070
And I'm like, well, I'm waiting for the Iraqis to
844
00:43:20.090 --> 00:43:22.610
get an equal force number so that we can go
845
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:23.179
out the gate.
846
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:23.510
Right.
847
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.820
And we were closer to like a one thirds, two thirds.
848
00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:29.340
And I just told them to go. And, you know,
849
00:43:29.380 --> 00:43:31.280
and then the next rule was the Iraqis were supposed
850
00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:32.679
to be the first ones in the door and we
851
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:35.590
were supposed to be following behind. And, you know, I
852
00:43:35.590 --> 00:43:38.489
had two kids go in a room and, you know,
853
00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:41.789
an old man jumps up out of bed. He grabs
854
00:43:41.809 --> 00:43:43.670
the barrel of the kid. There's not an Iraqi in
855
00:43:43.710 --> 00:43:46.590
the room, right? Grabs the barrel of the kid's M4.
856
00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:49.789
He does a little swooping, you know, barrel thumps the
857
00:43:49.829 --> 00:43:52.610
guy in the forehead, you know, a non, you know,
858
00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:55.920
non-lethal kind of, you know, and then the guy lunged
859
00:43:56.019 --> 00:43:58.940
at him and the kid went, you know, safe to
860
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.840
semi and put two rounds in him and killed him.
861
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:04.559
And so, you know, I'm like, okay, well, it's fine.
862
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:06.539
It costs to do in business, blah, blah, blah, blah.
863
00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:10.329
And then I realized very quickly that, uh, I hadn't
864
00:44:10.349 --> 00:44:13.369
even told my boss we were on this operation. I
865
00:44:13.429 --> 00:44:14.949
hadn't told him that we were going out of the
866
00:44:14.989 --> 00:44:19.329
gate with less than 50-50 force ratio. I didn't tell him.
867
00:44:19.429 --> 00:44:21.170
You know what I mean? There was all these things,
868
00:44:21.570 --> 00:44:24.460
and I got too comfortable in my own skin for
869
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:28.260
my own good. They ball the guy up. They bring
870
00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:31.710
him back. I go, and I wake my boss up,
871
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.760
and I tell him everything that's happening. He was not happy.
872
00:44:37.179 --> 00:44:38.920
We all kind of dealt with it, but it was...
873
00:44:39.340 --> 00:44:41.460
As soon as I got the report that they killed
874
00:44:41.500 --> 00:44:44.840
that guy, in my head, I'm like, man, I really
875
00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:51.340
just fucked up. And thankfully, nothing severe happened out of it.
876
00:44:51.340 --> 00:44:54.030
There were no repercussions, but you want to talk about
877
00:44:54.070 --> 00:44:56.449
throwing up in your mouth for a second. I really,
878
00:44:56.510 --> 00:44:57.429
really fucked that up.
879
00:44:57.710 --> 00:44:59.650
When your stomach and your throat switch places?
880
00:45:00.010 --> 00:45:04.889
Yeah, absolutely. I wrote a whole chapter almost identical to
881
00:45:04.909 --> 00:45:05.750
that story.
882
00:45:05.489 --> 00:45:09.510
Called Mosques in Echo and Ramadi, but when you asked
883
00:45:09.530 --> 00:45:12.730
the question, Tom, I vividly remember this. And I don't
884
00:45:12.829 --> 00:45:15.340
believe I even, I wrote about it. We're the new
885
00:45:15.380 --> 00:45:18.059
guys in town. We check into Ramadi, you know, it's
886
00:45:18.099 --> 00:45:21.599
a wild, wild fucking West working for one nine infantry.
887
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:23.820
We're the only Marines in town. We look like rock
888
00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:25.820
stars because we have so many guys like, you know,
889
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:29.469
I've got like 200 and I think 48 guys pure
890
00:45:30.170 --> 00:45:30.909
in my command.
891
00:45:30.929 --> 00:45:34.949
And they loved us. Same thing. Brigade recon guys.
892
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:38.460
Has observation on a school down routes of fee in
893
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:41.159
the industrial district. And they says, Hey, we need to
894
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:43.920
send a, we want to go support these guys and
895
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:47.849
rate it. So 10 Colonel Ferry combat, Chuck, he's like, Scott,
896
00:45:47.889 --> 00:45:49.349
you got this. I'm like, Roger that, sir.
897
00:45:49.369 --> 00:45:51.989
I'm like balls hanging out. They're like, we rush out,
898
00:45:52.050 --> 00:45:53.090
jock up the convoy.
899
00:45:53.590 --> 00:45:57.159
We raced down route, Michigan, get into the zone is
900
00:45:57.260 --> 00:46:01.590
daylight by the way. And, We got calm with the
901
00:46:01.610 --> 00:46:05.250
brigade sniper team. They're telling us where they're at. There's
902
00:46:05.309 --> 00:46:08.260
insurgents in here. They're moving dead bodies. There's a big
903
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.119
firefight that ensued just as we got the call. And
904
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:13.920
they're dragging the insurgent dead bodies. They had a very
905
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.280
good plan for taking their own dead off the battlefield
906
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:21.440
and storing them in public buildings, mosques, or threatening civilians
907
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:23.969
to hide their wounded or dead.
908
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:28.449
So they're stacking these guys up. And as we roll into....
909
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:33.760
The okay corral all fucking hell breaks loose and Browns
910
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:35.840
just start going left, right.
911
00:46:36.059 --> 00:46:38.900
And, and sideways across every vehicle.
912
00:46:39.860 --> 00:46:43.659
Long story short, we don't get to fully execute the
913
00:46:43.699 --> 00:46:45.059
mission because we got lit up.
914
00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:45.940
So fucking bad.
915
00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:51.539
Sergeant Israel took around, uh, ricocheted from the tour, cut
916
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.760
him across the nose. He got very, very lucky. Uh,
917
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.449
one other guy got wounded on that mission. We, Tucked tail,
918
00:46:58.690 --> 00:47:01.150
turned back. They were already gone anyway. It wasn't this
919
00:47:01.630 --> 00:47:05.690
high-value target or anything. But when we got back, I
920
00:47:05.750
--> 00:47:08.230
soon realized we can't be fucking around.
921
00:47:08.050 --> 00:47:08.590
In the daylight.
922
00:47:09.429 --> 00:47:12.159
We own the night. We have optics. We have thermals.
923
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:14.840
We are trained at night. We're going to own the night.
924
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:17.659
And we're going to operate exclusively at night. And we're
925
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:21.400
going to patrol and send Marines out. And around every corner,
926
00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:22.880
there's going to be a fire team of Marines with
927
00:47:22.900 --> 00:47:24.739
some ass-kick firepower.
928
00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:26.639
We're going to scare the living shit and kill everybody
929
00:47:26.659 --> 00:47:29.389
that moves. And we had to learn the hard way though.
930
00:47:30.090 --> 00:47:33.630
And kind of a humbling thing because you roll in
931
00:47:33.670 --> 00:47:37.000
with all this armor and, you know, a squad or
932
00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:38.860
a platoon of Marines and you got overwatch and you
933
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:40.800
got Apaches from the army and the overhead and you
934
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.260
think you're invincible, but enemy gets a vote always.
935
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:48.119
Oh, I know, I know another author sitting on this
936
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.630
podcast who has said that exact same thing to me
937
00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.349
and may, may actually be quoted in something I wrote.
938
00:47:54.389 --> 00:47:54.730
Yeah.
939
00:47:56.420 --> 00:47:59.699
Well, so that brings up, I guess, a good follow-up
940
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:02.050
for both of you then because– and first of all,
941
00:48:02.110 --> 00:48:06.610
thank you guys because talking about our– it's never easy
942
00:48:06.670 --> 00:48:10.949
talking about bad– it's super easy talking about kick-ass decisions.
943
00:48:11.170 --> 00:48:16.190
It's oftentimes harder to talk about maybe decisions that didn't
944
00:48:16.210 --> 00:48:19.340
work out so well. But I think that tees up
945
00:48:19.429 --> 00:48:23.159
for me. Do you guys think– and Chuck, weigh in
946
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.550
on this too– as as a as a marine looking
947
00:48:27.730 --> 00:48:31.780
at your leaders right versus you know you guys leading
948
00:48:31.820 --> 00:48:34.280
men and scott you you man of both worlds and
949
00:48:34.659 --> 00:48:38.920
clay you've you've served under people do do you think
950
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:47.840
you build more credibility from being right or from how.
951
00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:54.739
Quickly people see you course correct being wrong Did you
952
00:48:54.780 --> 00:48:56.639
say how much do you.
953
00:48:56.539 --> 00:48:58.019
Learn from being right or wrong?
954
00:48:58.039 --> 00:48:59.760
You build more credibility, right?
955
00:48:59.780 --> 00:49:04.139
So does the leader build more credibility from being right
956
00:49:04.179 --> 00:49:06.219
more than they are wrong? Or do they build more
957
00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:11.139
credibility by course correcting and being accountable when they're wrong?
958
00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:15.030
I was observed forcing a fucked up plan and I
959
00:49:15.070 --> 00:49:16.070
didn't course correct.
960
00:49:16.690 --> 00:49:18.269
Someone would have called me on it and I probably
961
00:49:18.289 --> 00:49:19.309
would have done it.
962
00:49:19.329 --> 00:49:19.510
Yeah.
963
00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:21.670
And a lot of times too.
964
00:49:21.590 --> 00:49:27.260
As a commander like Clay mentioned earlier there's a lot
965
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.639
of things that the boys don't need to fucking know
966
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:33.300
because you're receiving a lot of top down pressure to
967
00:49:33.340 --> 00:49:37.059
do what I'm quite sure in their eyes is very
968
00:49:37.139 --> 00:49:40.630
very stupid shit But as a captain or as a major,
969
00:49:40.650 --> 00:49:45.269
even as a lieutenant colonel, everybody takes orders. But if
970
00:49:45.329 --> 00:49:48.670
it was a tactical life or death situation, you know,
971
00:49:48.710 --> 00:49:54.380
when you're engaged with the enemy, I mean, obviously, that's
972
00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:57.500
the beauty of the brotherhood is, you know, at that stage,
973
00:49:57.539 --> 00:50:01.019
we're in survival mode. And people will be, there's no
974
00:50:01.099 --> 00:50:03.780
rank when bullets are flying. There's no race when bullets
975
00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:06.869
are flying. There's no sexual orientation or no one cares
976
00:50:06.889 --> 00:50:08.389
about what color your golf shirt is, man.
977
00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:16.170
I'm telling you it's all right. You like going in there.
978
00:50:16.369 --> 00:50:17.610
We got him woken up now.
979
00:50:17.849 --> 00:50:19.869
Golf shirts again.
980
00:50:21.050 --> 00:50:23.269
Hey, it's a, it's a work shirt. It's it's, it
981
00:50:23.289 --> 00:50:25.929
gets hot as heck out here. And, uh, Tiffany blue.
982
00:50:25.949 --> 00:50:26.639
Tiffany blue.
983
00:50:26.659 --> 00:50:28.639
Yeah. It brings out your eyes, dude. Tiffany.
984
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:37.530
It does. Um, I can say this looking at two leaders,
985
00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:40.630
especially one from the Marine Corps and being a part
986
00:50:40.730 --> 00:50:43.309
of things and working closely with other leadership outside and
987
00:50:43.329 --> 00:50:46.690
like law enforcement and stuff like that. And having worked
988
00:50:46.750 --> 00:50:51.469
with in the military, working with, you know, lieutenants and
989
00:50:51.510 --> 00:50:54.869
captains and gunnies and staff sergeants and all that good stuff,
990
00:50:55.329 --> 00:50:59.929
seeing someone course correct something that's wrong, or we all
991
00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:03.829
know it's wrong and we're, you know, we're watching and
992
00:51:04.010 --> 00:51:05.769
we're like, I really hope they fucking fix that.
993
00:51:06.289 -->
00:51:07.090
And then they do it.
994
00:51:07.369 --> 00:51:09.510
You're, you're, you get a lot of respect because you're like, Ooh,
995
00:51:09.550 --> 00:51:11.909
that wasn't, that wasn't easy because a lot of the
996
00:51:11.929 --> 00:51:13.699
stuff comes from the top down. And when you see
997
00:51:13.780 --> 00:51:20.079
someone like a gunny or a Lieutenant correct, the, the,
998
00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:22.320
the stuff that's coming down, you get a lot of
999
00:51:22.340 --> 00:51:24.719
respect for them. You're like, wow, that's, that's, that's freaking amazing.
1000
00:51:25.090 --> 00:51:28.110
And you, you feel that they're taking care of you.
1001
00:51:28.510 --> 00:51:31.150
And then in law enforcement, because I have that background,
1002
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:34.019
Seeing when you're in the midst of something in an
1003
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:36.460
operation and you're doing something and you have a lot
1004
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.909
of tactical experience and you're running point on something and
1005
00:51:39.929 --> 00:51:41.869
then you have your sergeant who's there as well with
1006
00:51:41.909 --> 00:51:46.090
you and he's kind of overseeing or she's overseeing and
1007
00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:47.750
then they're like, hey, I need you to do this
1008
00:51:47.849 --> 00:51:52.050
and you stop and you're like, no, that's unsafe. We
1009
00:51:52.070 --> 00:51:54.170
should probably do it this way. And they're like, you're right.
1010
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:58.019
Mad respect for that because that is.
1011
00:51:58.019 --> 00:52:02.250
Something that you don't often see Inside of some leadership,
1012
00:52:02.329 --> 00:52:04.630
you see it more of as an ego thing where
1013
00:52:04.650 --> 00:52:05.050
you're like.
1014
00:52:05.090 --> 00:52:06.469
No, you're not going to tell me what to do.
1015
00:52:06.510 --> 00:52:08.610
You're just a patrol officer. You're just this. You're just that.
1016
00:52:08.650 --> 00:52:08.829
Right.
1017
00:52:09.269 --> 00:52:11.730
But if you have a good working relationship and you're like, hey,
1018
00:52:12.389 --> 00:52:14.550
I don't think that's you see something, say something.
1019
00:52:14.590 --> 00:52:14.769
Right.
1020
00:52:14.809 --> 00:52:16.989
And I don't think that that's safe. And I think
1021
00:52:17.030 --> 00:52:18.409
it's going to be I don't think it's going to
1022
00:52:18.449 --> 00:52:20.230
end well. I think this might be a better avenue
1023
00:52:20.269 --> 00:52:24.139
real quick and you can get it out fast. I
1024
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:26.739
think that, you know, having that relationship, you gain a
1025
00:52:26.780 --> 00:52:29.019
lot of respect that way for all of the troops
1026
00:52:29.059 --> 00:52:33.820
underneath you. because they know that you're understandable and you
1027
00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:37.159
have your head screwed on right. And you guys are right.
1028
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:39.860
The guys, the troops don't need to know everything that's
1029
00:52:39.900 --> 00:52:43.400
going on, but when they see funky shit, they're going
1030
00:52:43.420 --> 00:52:45.360
to call you on it. And I think that having
1031
00:52:45.409 --> 00:52:48.750
that balls to be calling someone on it is one,
1032
00:52:48.769 --> 00:52:51.590
it's good if you're doing it right and tactfully, but two,
1033
00:52:52.090 --> 00:52:53.030
having the stones to.
1034
00:52:52.969 --> 00:52:54.510
Be like, yeah, you're right.
1035
00:52:54.690 --> 00:52:59.389
And having that intertangled conversation you know, lack of respect
1036
00:52:59.409 --> 00:53:00.130
for everybody.
1037
00:53:00.829 --> 00:53:02.429
Yeah. And having that respect for everybody.
1038
00:53:02.570 --> 00:53:04.949
I mean, it just makes for a more tight knit group,
1039
00:53:05.389 --> 00:53:09.150
a more respectful group. And you guys get the shit
1040
00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:12.369
done with minimal BS. And I think that, yeah, it
1041
00:53:12.409 --> 00:53:13.090
looks real good.
1042
00:53:13.929 --> 00:53:14.210
Yeah.
1043
00:53:14.489 --> 00:53:18.199
I've always thought that you, you get the most credibility
1044
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:19.659
by being consistent.
1045
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:20.360
Yes.
1046
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:23.099
Like it's not a matter of always being right or
1047
00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:25.920
being right more often than you're wrong or course correcting
1048
00:53:25.940 --> 00:53:29.579
a right from or wrong to a writer. I think
1049
00:53:29.619 --> 00:53:35.789
if you're consistent and because we've all had erratic leaders, right?
1050
00:53:35.949 --> 00:53:38.650
Bosses or people we've been around who are erratic, who
1051
00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:43.150
are unpredictable. And when you're the person like, What we
1052
00:53:43.190 --> 00:53:47.010
did for a living is unpredictable enough. It's erratic enough.
1053
00:53:47.230 --> 00:53:49.690
There's enough fucking surprises. You don't need to be the
1054
00:53:49.769 --> 00:53:53.849
leader who introduces that into the situation, right? So if
1055
00:53:53.909 --> 00:53:58.650
you can be consistent, right, and somewhat predictable to the
1056
00:53:58.690 --> 00:54:02.070
point where your subordinates or those working around you can go,
1057
00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:04.570
the boss is not going to buy that. I've been
1058
00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:06.409
around him. I've been around him for a year. I
1059
00:54:06.789 --> 00:54:08.710
can tell you right now he's, you know what I mean?
1060
00:54:08.750 --> 00:54:12.920
Like they know what your expectations are. that you hold
1061
00:54:12.980 --> 00:54:17.219
a consistent level of expectancy, like you're not erratic. And
1062
00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:22.039
if you can be that individual, I think that is
1063
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.940
probably what gives you the, to me, gives you the
1064
00:54:24.980 --> 00:54:28.940
most cred in an organization. And I can say that from,
1065
00:54:29.380 --> 00:54:31.719
like I had a boss, probably my favorite boss I
1066
00:54:31.780 --> 00:54:36.019
ever had was literally tuned up to 11 all the time.
1067
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:39.119
But we knew that he was tuned up to 11
1068
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:43.000
all the time. And so, you know, a lot of
1069
00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:46.579
people who worked around that guy didn't like him. Like
1070
00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:49.460
if you weren't on his team, if you were on
1071
00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:52.360
the team next door, he was not a guy that
1072
00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:54.539
was easy to deal with. If you were on his team,
1073
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:57.260
it was cool. But again, he was turned up to
1074
00:54:57.260 --> 00:54:58.880
11 all the time. And a lot of people can't
1075
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:01.440
work in an environment like that, but he was consistent.
1076
00:55:01.579 --> 00:55:03.340
And that's, we all, we knew what we were getting.
1077
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:08.130
Like literally every single day, the expectations were very, very clear.
1078
00:55:08.369 --> 00:55:10.469
And so that made life pretty, pretty easy.
1079
00:55:11.429 --> 00:55:17.030
So it sounds like, credibility doesn't necessarily get built more.
1080
00:55:17.409 --> 00:55:19.969
It does get built, but to your point, you're saying
1081
00:55:19.989 --> 00:55:23.250
it gets built with the consistency, but it sure as
1082
00:55:23.289 --> 00:55:24.909
hell can be destroyed.
1083
00:55:24.929 --> 00:55:25.630
A hundred percent.
1084
00:55:25.889 --> 00:55:28.550
By failing to course correct in, you know, and, and
1085
00:55:28.590 --> 00:55:32.280
all that kind of stuff. And, and if I'm, I
1086
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:36.159
guess if I'm understanding, you know, you want obviously protect credibility,
1087
00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:40.199
but is there a mechanism by which what you're saying, Clay,
1088
00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:44.199
about that consistency is, is that because of the sense
1089
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:46.619
you get when somebody is consistent, that it's genuine, right?
1090
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:50.900
Because to me, I look at them as inconsistent.
1091
00:55:51.380 --> 00:55:54.659
It's not a show. They're not doing it. Because if
1092
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:58.139
you're acting, if you're not acting like yourself, if you're
1093
00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:02.199
putting on a show 24-7, 365, that's exhausting. I don't
1094
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:04.869
give a shit who you are, right? And it eventually
1095
00:56:04.909 --> 00:56:08.230
is going to catch up with you. Now, those guys
1096
00:56:08.670 --> 00:56:11.750
that I've been around, who keep that level of consistency,
1097
00:56:11.789 --> 00:56:13.949
the one thing that they also all have in common
1098
00:56:14.349 --> 00:56:16.550
is that when they do have that dip, when they
1099
00:56:16.590 --> 00:56:20.000
do fuck up, when something goes wrong, is the humility
1100
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:23.599
to say, that's not me, that's not my norm, that's
1101
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.380
not acceptable in this organization by me or anybody else.
1102
00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:30.760
And they admit that dip, but they go right back
1103
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:33.199
to who they were after that happens.
1104
00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:39.909
Yeah, I think that's the level of knowing Excuse me,
1105
00:56:39.949 --> 00:56:41.570
your leader is genuine? Yeah.
1106
00:56:42.349 --> 00:56:49.090
And authentic is incalculable pricelessness, right? And I'm sure you
1107
00:56:49.110 --> 00:56:52.110
guys can remember, how quickly does someone stand out to
1108
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:54.900
you on both ends of the spectrum? You can remember
1109
00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:57.400
a leader who stood out to you as, man, that
1110
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:02.219
guy was rock solid. He was genuine, right? But I
1111
00:57:02.260 --> 00:57:04.800
bet you can all quickly pick out the guy that
1112
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.380
you're like, that guy, it was all image.
1113
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:08.960
He was an empty suit, right?
1114
00:57:08.980 --> 00:57:09.239
Yep.
1115
00:57:09.619 --> 00:57:14.000
And do you, do.
1116
00:57:13.900 --> 00:57:20.230
You see it above and below? Like, especially where do
1117
00:57:20.269 --> 00:57:23.449
you see it more? Cause I mean, we all know
1118
00:57:23.489 --> 00:57:25.969
brown nosers. We had a, we had a, we had,
1119
00:57:26.409 --> 00:57:27.289
we had a motor.
1120
00:57:27.050 --> 00:57:33.110
Officer that used to just fluff the Lieutenant all day long.
1121
00:57:33.590 --> 00:57:35.349
And the big joke is you walk by the Lieutenant's
1122
00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:36.789
office and you go, Hey Lieutenant, watch out when you
1123
00:57:36.829 --> 00:57:38.219
sit down, you might break.
1124
00:57:38.739 --> 00:57:39.940
Motor officer, so-and-so's neck.
1125
00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:42.260
Um, and.
1126
00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:46.179
We all know those guys that are, that are, it's
1127
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:50.010
all about image management as opposed to substance, right? Do
1128
00:57:50.050 --> 00:57:54.530
you see a difference in that as, as, as you get,
1129
00:57:54.630 --> 00:57:57.570
as you got, got up in rank and as you climbed,
1130
00:57:58.110 --> 00:58:01.630
you know, the ladder and, and as far as where
1131
00:58:02.190 --> 00:58:09.349
the level of authenticity was less or more? I, each
1132
00:58:09.510 --> 00:58:11.059
side has their own share of it.
1133
00:58:12.210 --> 00:58:14.650
There are fewer officers than there are enlisted.
1134
00:58:14.929 --> 00:58:18.429
So it's, you know, a disproportionate, but you know, each
1135
00:58:18.530 --> 00:58:20.760
one has probably equal percentage, I would say.
1136
00:58:21.070 --> 00:58:23.300
That's what I was curious about. It's like percentage wise.
1137
00:58:23.619 --> 00:58:24.559
And here's the thing.
1138
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:27.320
I
don't, I don't necessarily know if this is an
1139
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:29.659
academic discussion we need to get into, but the military,
1140
00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:34.420
especially the Marine Corps, they don't provide any online education
1141
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:39.570
or any in-person courses on personality management and, and, you know,
1142
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:42.599
personal growth and development. They just don't do that. Or
1143
00:58:43.059 --> 00:58:45.679
we don't teach classes on communication skills. So some people
1144
00:58:45.699 --> 00:58:47.920
are just really fucking bad at it. And all they
1145
00:58:47.940 --> 00:58:48.380
know is.
1146
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:52.980
That it's true. Or the guys that are the ninjas.
1147
00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:54.739
And then there's the guys that are normal.
1148
00:58:54.760 --> 00:58:59.480
They can have conversational relationships despite the rank in between them. And,
1149
00:58:59.500 --> 00:59:01.760
you know, a lot of people who join the military
1150
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:04.260
come from backgrounds that you can't erase.
1151
00:59:04.260 --> 00:59:06.199
18 years of previous experience.
1152
00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:13.800
Experience neglect of lack of education, too much education. There's
1153
00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:17.119
all sorts of variables that go into that in my
1154
00:59:17.179 --> 00:59:21.340
experience that as a great leader, you just have to
1155
00:59:21.380 --> 00:59:25.519
understand that organizations you lead will be diverse. You will
1156
00:59:25.539 --> 00:59:27.980
have people from all different walks of life with all
1157
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:30.489
different types of skill sets. And I think we talked
1158
00:59:30.530 --> 00:59:32.389
about this last time I was on the show and
1159
00:59:32.449 --> 00:59:38.090
really understanding that, listening to them and really knowing what
1160
00:59:38.170 --> 00:59:40.309
your team is great at and what you need to
1161
00:59:40.369 --> 00:59:44.320
improve on, I think is what's going to really be
1162
00:59:44.360 --> 00:59:49.119
the differentiating factor between winning and losing, because that's really
1163
00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:52.079
all it boils down to. for what we're, what we're
1164
00:59:52.099 --> 00:59:53.880
trying to do. We want to be winners.
1165
00:59:55.030 --> 00:59:56.349
Well, I mean, who doesn't, right?
1166
00:59:56.570 --> 00:59:56.949
Absolutely.
1167
00:59:57.329 --> 00:59:59.010
I'd rather be on the winning team than the losing team.
1168
00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:03.389
We have to be winners. Otherwise we're dead. That's much higher.
1169
01:00:04.190 --> 01:00:06.989
There's no second place, but to Scott's point, and I
1170
01:00:07.010 --> 01:00:11.760
think I told this story on, on this show, you know,
1171
01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:15.380
when I was a captain company commander, general McChrystal was
1172
01:00:15.420 --> 01:00:18.659
a one-star at Fort Bragg and we had this tasking
1173
01:00:18.699 --> 01:00:22.309
my company did. at the army science board, right? Like
1174
01:00:22.349 --> 01:00:27.510
these brilliant MIT, like super smart dudes and dudettes were
1175
01:00:27.530 --> 01:00:31.699
going to come visit. And General McChrystal was their kind
1176
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:35.579
of hosting officer. And he's a one star at the time.
1177
01:00:35.619 --> 01:00:38.619
So we're on this range and listen, he was, he
1178
01:00:38.659 --> 01:00:41.480
was as much of a soldier, soldier as anybody. And
1179
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:43.780
so he's out there and he grabs one of my young,
1180
01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:46.860
you know, paratroopers. And he starts having this discussion with
1181
01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:49.500
this kid about his weapon system and what it can
1182
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:51.739
do and what it's capable of. And he is, he's
1183
01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:55.670
a one-star talking to an E3, but like they're engaged
1184
01:00:55.769 --> 01:00:59.010
as two infantrymen talking about killing people. And it was
1185
01:00:59.070 --> 01:01:01.949
just awesome. Right. And that kid, you know, is he's
1186
01:01:02.090 --> 01:01:05.809
loving it, but then the army science board, the bus
1187
01:01:05.869 --> 01:01:07.780
pulls up and all these scientists get off. And I
1188
01:01:07.820 --> 01:01:11.579
watched general McChrystal flip the switch turned around and he
1189
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:15.820
was talking to MIT graduates. And it literally was like
1190
01:01:15.860 --> 01:01:19.320
a shift in, And I stood there and I watched
1191
01:01:19.380 --> 01:01:23.690
it happen and I went, that is what I need
1192
01:01:23.730 --> 01:01:25.090
to figure out how to do best.
1193
01:01:25.769 --> 01:01:25.969
Right.
1194
01:01:26.130 --> 01:01:28.170
So when I was a, when I, and I worked
1195
01:01:28.250 --> 01:01:29.949
on it and it takes practice, but when I was
1196
01:01:30.010 --> 01:01:30.949
a squadron commander.
1197
01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:32.210
Code switching.
1198
01:01:32.809 --> 01:01:33.309
Right. Yeah.
1199
01:01:33.489 --> 01:01:34.929
And what I would do is I would walk, I
1200
01:01:34.949 --> 01:01:36.530
would do it twice a day. I'd walk out of
1201
01:01:36.550 --> 01:01:38.659
my office and right outside my office were my ops
1202
01:01:38.679 --> 01:01:40.699
guys and they look like me and they talk like
1203
01:01:40.760 --> 01:01:42.500
me and they were just younger versions of me.
1204
01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:42.800
Right.
1205
01:01:43.159 --> 01:01:46.000
So it's easy to communicate with them, but next to
1206
01:01:46.059 --> 01:01:49.619
them were my Intel folks. And they're a totally different animal, right?
1207
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:53.800
Super smart, very analytical. Next to them were my signal folks,
1208
01:01:54.139 --> 01:01:58.760
very technical. You know, next to them were my logistics folks.
1209
01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:00.989
And then it was my personnel shop. And
then it
1210
01:02:01.050 --> 01:02:03.730
was my XO. And then it was my sergeant major.
1211
01:02:04.070 --> 01:02:06.449
And so I would literally roll through the office and
1212
01:02:06.469 --> 01:02:08.909
I would go from section to section to section. And
1213
01:02:08.989 --> 01:02:12.090
I would work on switching how I communicated with each
1214
01:02:12.150 --> 01:02:14.980
one of those audiences as fast as I could. Because
1215
01:02:15.260 --> 01:02:18.090
you couldn't talk to all of them like my operators,
1216
01:02:18.429 --> 01:02:21.809
which is who I was. It just didn't work. So,
1217
01:02:22.710 --> 01:02:24.929
you know, yes, you've got to figure out how to
1218
01:02:24.989 --> 01:02:27.969
communicate like Scott was talking about because that's how you
1219
01:02:27.989 --> 01:02:31.079
get the most out of your organization as a leader
1220
01:02:32.260 --> 01:02:34.420
is being able to communicate with them the best way
1221
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:37.239
that you know how to communicate your vision, the mission
1222
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:38.579
of the organization, and get the.
1223
01:02:38.539 --> 01:02:39.179
Most out of them.
1224
01:02:40.820 --> 01:02:41.929
Yeah.
1225
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:45.599
Chuck, do you think– because this is– And I know
1226
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:49.179
there are some people that have it, right? They just
1227
01:02:49.300 --> 01:02:52.909
have that knack. They're good communicators. They were born being
1228
01:02:52.949 --> 01:02:56.250
able to code switch. And I'm sure you guys all
1229
01:02:56.269 --> 01:02:58.150
have met those people. And then there's some people have
1230
01:02:58.170 --> 01:03:01.050
to learn it. And then there's other people that will
1231
01:03:01.210 --> 01:03:05.110
never get it. And we call them IT.
1232
01:03:04.789 --> 01:03:05.650
People, right?
1233
01:03:07.469 --> 01:03:13.130
But as far as like, I think being a police
1234
01:03:13.190 --> 01:03:15.320
officer if you, we called it.
1235
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:16.920
The okie doke. I had a FTO.
1236
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.570
He, he, he goes, Oh, you, you know, two weeks
1237
01:03:19.630 --> 01:03:21.849
into my training, I told a 65 year old man,
1238
01:03:21.889 --> 01:03:22.730
don't call me son.
1239
01:03:23.130 --> 01:03:23.369
Right.
1240
01:03:23.829 --> 01:03:26.110
And I dressed him down. And my FTO was where
1241
01:03:26.130 --> 01:03:27.449
the hell did you learn to do that? I was
1242
01:03:27.449 --> 01:03:29.360
24 years old. And then say, where the hell did
1243
01:03:29.380 --> 01:03:30.960
you learn to dress down a 65 year old man
1244
01:03:31.019 --> 01:03:34.179
with that level of respect, but that forcefully it's.
1245
01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:34.920
Like, I don't know. I just did it.
1246
01:03:35.539 --> 01:03:37.679
But then we had, he had another trainee, my buddy
1247
01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:40.909
Brownie and Brownie. He told man, you got to learn
1248
01:03:40.929 --> 01:03:43.699
to do the okie doke. You got to learn how
1249
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:47.599
the art of conversation changes for every person you're contacting
1250
01:03:47.619 --> 01:03:47.920
on the street.
1251
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:49.619
Because on any given day, you're.
1252
01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:53.579
Talking to a parolee, the mayor, a fellow deputy or
1253
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:57.679
a police officer, a soccer mom, and, you know, a
1254
01:03:58.780 --> 01:04:00.050
victim of a violent crime.
1255
01:04:00.619 --> 01:04:02.849
And you, it could be within an hour. It could
1256
01:04:02.869 --> 01:04:04.849
be within 10 minutes. It could be all on the
1257
01:04:04.909 --> 01:04:05.750
same call.
1258
01:04:06.409 --> 01:04:06.570
Yeah.
1259
01:04:06.889 --> 01:04:09.949
And the ability to just change that level.
1260
01:04:09.989 --> 01:04:12.869
And, you know, the okie dokes is what he called it, but.
1261
01:04:13.449 --> 01:04:17.710
it's that same concept. I think, did you, did you
1262
01:04:17.989 --> 01:04:20.829
have somebody train you, teach you? Was that part of
1263
01:04:21.349 --> 01:04:22.309
training for you? Yeah.
1264
01:04:25.989 --> 01:04:28.440
Cause like, as, as Scott was saying, the Marine Corps
1265
01:04:28.619 --> 01:04:30.800
is a really good place to learn leadership. It's a
1266
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:33.360
really good place to, to learn a lot of things
1267
01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:35.659
really quick, but they don't teach you how to communicate
1268
01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:40.989
with people. So coming from that, that type of gun
1269
01:04:41.030 --> 01:04:44.070
club and then going into law enforcement and then I
1270
01:04:44.110 --> 01:04:46.630
had the tactics down, but I had a couple of
1271
01:04:46.650 --> 01:04:50.420
good FTOs that were really, that sat me down. My
1272
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:52.780
second FTO sat me down and he sat me in
1273
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:55.219
the car and he goes, Hey, there's a lot of
1274
01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:57.340
motherfuckers out here. There's a lot of assholes, but there's
1275
01:04:57.360 --> 01:04:59.690
a lot of really good people and you can't treat
1276
01:04:59.750 --> 01:05:00.750
everybody as an asshole.
1277
01:05:01.269 --> 01:05:02.750
You just can't. They're humans.
1278
01:05:03.690 --> 01:05:07.570
And he was a nasty, nasty FTO, right? You know,
1279
01:05:07.710 --> 01:05:09.309
he would put people in their place, but he goes,
1280
01:05:09.750 --> 01:05:12.070
There are certain people out here that are really good people.
1281
01:05:12.090 --> 01:05:14.190
And he showed me all the great people that he
1282
01:05:14.230 --> 01:05:17.349
has met throughout the whole division. And he had been
1283
01:05:17.389 --> 01:05:19.929
working there for years. So he knew absolutely everybody. And
1284
01:05:19.989 --> 01:05:21.949
he took me into all the businesses and showed me
1285
01:05:22.070 --> 01:05:24.909
all the people. And I developed all these
relationships. And
1286
01:05:24.949 --> 01:05:26.809
I would watch him. And I learned how to develop
1287
01:05:26.849 --> 01:05:31.170
a rapport with people. And through years of trials and tribulation,
1288
01:05:31.190 --> 01:05:34.760
doing that, failing, and as I like to coin it,
1289
01:05:34.889 --> 01:05:37.699
failing forward and learning from your mistakes and seeing where
1290
01:05:37.739 --> 01:05:39.860
you go from that mistake. And how you speak to
1291
01:05:39.889 --> 01:05:42.840
people like that, that didn't fucking work. And, and losing
1292
01:05:42.860 --> 01:05:46.420
that ego and losing it really quickly from a conversation
1293
01:05:46.460 --> 01:05:49.579
with a suspect who, who basically told me that, you know,
1294
01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:52.039
how I know you're a boot. And I said, no,
1295
01:05:52.619 --> 01:05:56.880
because I had been off training for, for like six months.
1296
01:05:56.940 --> 01:05:57.039
Right.
1297
01:05:57.059 --> 01:05:58.139
And I'm like, I ain't no fucking boot.
1298
01:05:58.179 --> 01:05:58.400
Right.
1299
01:05:58.920 --> 01:05:59.420
Still a boot.
1300
01:06:00.739 --> 01:06:00.929
And.
1301
01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:02.860
Oh, they can smell it.
1302
01:06:02.949 --> 01:06:05.170
Yeah. So he broke it down and he goes, this
1303
01:06:05.230 --> 01:06:08.110
is why he goes, you're too aggressive. You're too this,
1304
01:06:08.130 --> 01:06:10.030
you're too that you're blah, blah, blah. And I was like,
1305
01:06:10.090 --> 01:06:14.789
no shit. That changed my perspective instantly. And I went
1306
01:06:14.889 --> 01:06:18.670
through different scenarios, talking to people on calls and I
1307
01:06:18.710 --> 01:06:19.769
had supervisors with.
1308
01:06:19.670 --> 01:06:20.969
Me and they were like, what the fuck?
1309
01:06:21.570 --> 01:06:22.150
How are you doing?
1310
01:06:22.170 --> 01:06:23.699
Other officers would be like, what the fuck?
1311
01:06:23.780 --> 01:06:24.159
How are you?
1312
01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:26.139
How are you speaking to that person that way? Not
1313
01:06:26.179 --> 01:06:26.840
getting a complaint.
1314
01:06:27.579 --> 01:06:29.639
I said, well, because that person's talks like this and
1315
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:32.179
they speak this way and, and, and this is the
1316
01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:34.320
way that they act, but I'm not going to take
1317
01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:37.260
that and go to an, 60, 70, 80 year old
1318
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:38.780
woman and talk the same way.
1319
01:06:38.820 --> 01:06:39.820
It's going to be totally different.
1320
01:06:39.860 --> 01:06:41.360
I'm not going to talk to a child that way.
1321
01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:45.199
And it's learning through investigations and how to have really,
1322
01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:46.679
and you have really good leaders who teach you. And
1323
01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:49.719
I had a lot of really good mentors who taught
1324
01:06:49.739 --> 01:06:51.199
me a lot of really good things. And one of
1325
01:06:51.219 --> 01:06:54.960
my favorite leaders was a special forces army guy, and
1326
01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:57.139
he taught me a lot. And then I had a
1327
01:06:57.159 --> 01:06:59.760
lot of really good detectives who taught me how to
1328
01:06:59.900 --> 01:07:02.400
really investigate and talk to people. But I also took
1329
01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:04.179
a course in it because I had to teach myself
1330
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:06.599
I took a course in it and through peer support
1331
01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:09.159
and peer counseling. And that's where I really learned some
1332
01:07:09.179 --> 01:07:12.260
really good techniques to speak to people and listen to
1333
01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:14.909
people and make sure that they feel valued and heard.
1334
01:07:14.949 --> 01:07:17.250
And I translated that onto the streets, not just for,
1335
01:07:17.269 --> 01:07:20.010
because it was mainly just for officers, but I utilized
1336
01:07:20.050 --> 01:07:22.710
that knowledge for everyday people.
1337
01:07:22.909 --> 01:07:23.809
So I had to teach myself.
1338
01:07:24.570 --> 01:07:27.630
My, my grandfather's parents, my great grandparents were fresh off
1339
01:07:27.650 --> 01:07:29.550
the boat from the UK. And so he, my grandfather
1340
01:07:29.570 --> 01:07:33.059
had a very Scots Irish way of putting certain things. And, uh,
1341
01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:34.900
I think what he, what, one of the things you're
1342
01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:37.170
talking about, Chuck is, is something he taught me early on.
1343
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:39.719
He said, he pulled me aside and he says, cause he,
1344
01:07:39.929 --> 01:07:43.170
he could speak very harsh to people and yet still
1345
01:07:44.329 --> 01:07:45.889
walk away with friends, walk away, you know.
1346
01:07:45.909 --> 01:07:46.530
All that kind of stuff.
1347
01:07:47.070 --> 01:07:49.690
And, you know, he's World War II bombardier, all that,
1348
01:07:49.889 --> 01:07:51.949
you know, he had all the credibility and all that stuff,
1349
01:07:52.230 --> 01:07:54.110
but he looked at me one day and he used
1350
01:07:54.130 --> 01:07:58.559
to say, kid, you can, if you know what you're doing,
1351
01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:01.219
tell someone to go fuck themselves.
1352
01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:03.030
And make them look forward to the trip.
1353
01:08:05.050 --> 01:08:12.789
And it was eye-opening that it's, you know, and I
1354
01:08:12.849 --> 01:08:16.050
used to, that same thing, I had a young, we
1355
01:08:16.069 --> 01:08:18.449
were on a call, this woman's kid calls the cops
1356
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:22.100
from the upstairs apartment, and the rookie hears me dressing
1357
01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:26.180
this woman down. She's a shitbag who prioritized her shithead
1358
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:29.500
boyfriend and their domestic violence problems over her five-year-old son
1359
01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:31.729
who went upstairs out of fear to ask the
neighbors
1360
01:08:31.739 --> 01:08:34.250
to call the cops. And I'm dressing her down and
1361
01:08:35.189 --> 01:08:37.590
why do you think you can do that? And he's
1362
01:08:37.609 --> 01:08:39.109
looking at me and his eyes are like this big. He's,
1363
01:08:39.350 --> 01:08:40.890
he swears when we go back to station and he's
1364
01:08:40.930 --> 01:08:42.590
on probation, he's going to get a complaint because of
1365
01:08:42.649 --> 01:08:45.510
all the things I'm saying. And he looks at her
1366
01:08:45.529 --> 01:08:48.350
and he goes, ma'am, you know, he's not trying to
1367
01:08:48.430 --> 01:08:49.789
say that you're a bad mother.
1368
01:08:49.810 --> 01:08:52.670
I said, you stop. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
1369
01:08:52.770 --> 01:08:57.789
You are a bad mother. And she, Oh, you're right.
1370
01:08:57.829 --> 01:08:59.649
I'm so, and she started, she broke down, she started crying.
1371
01:08:59.729 --> 01:09:02.770
She, man, it, but I read her and I knew
1372
01:09:03.529 --> 01:09:05.470
just how far I could push her and take her.
1373
01:09:06.609 --> 01:09:10.670
And I think Scott, maybe is that a blind spot
1374
01:09:10.949 --> 01:09:15.630
that the, the, the Marine Corps has to training clay?
1375
01:09:15.689 --> 01:09:18.270
Is that something that the army doesn't teach either? Is that,
1376
01:09:18.619 --> 01:09:22.109
Is that something that should be developed? Is that, you know,
1377
01:09:22.430 --> 01:09:24.710
maybe that part of the FTO program where they teach
1378
01:09:24.770 --> 01:09:30.010
you person skills or interpersonal skills or communication skills?
1379
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:37.079
Yes, I'm an advocate of it. I'm a fan of it.
1380
01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:39.470
I'm the self-learner of it.
1381
01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:43.090
And to be honest, it was in a schoolhouse environment
1382
01:09:43.100 --> 01:09:44.729
at the same command I was talking about in Yuma.
1383
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:48.119
at MOTS1, but I used to teach a course called
1384
01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:52.199
body language, but it was primarily for instructors. But you
1385
01:09:52.239 --> 01:09:57.329
guys know, especially as cops, body language is so important
1386
01:09:57.670 --> 01:10:03.569
and it's everything. And so I would teach them as instructors,
1387
01:10:03.609 --> 01:10:06.029
how to read your audience, how to know when to
1388
01:10:06.090 --> 01:10:08.590
pick up your pitch and intonation and when to really
1389
01:10:08.630 --> 01:10:10.939
get in their face and No one's falling asleep in
1390
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:13.579
class or when to move on, when to ask questions,
1391
01:10:14.279 --> 01:10:17.090
how to engage, uh, you know, how to become engaging.
1392
01:10:17.109 --> 01:10:20.029
Uh, and that was an important thing to being an
1393
01:10:20.069 --> 01:10:21.369
effective instructor.
1394
01:10:21.949 --> 01:10:26.859
So the students retain the information, not just learned it,
1395
01:10:27.130 --> 01:10:30.449
but they could reapply it in a cockpit or behind
1396
01:10:30.470 --> 01:10:32.760
a machine gun. I don't care where they were. That
1397
01:10:32.779 --> 01:10:35.880
was important to me. It was something that I brought to, uh,
1398
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:38.819
the syllabus. When I, when I checked in there, there
1399
01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:41.720
was a, uh, version of it. But there's a lot
1400
01:10:41.739 --> 01:10:44.850
of great books that teach that. But wholesale across the
1401
01:10:44.939 --> 01:10:47.630
Marine Corps, yeah, we could do better. I think there's
1402
01:10:47.789 --> 01:10:52.649
probably some cursory courses taught at more advanced schools, but
1403
01:10:53.609 --> 01:10:57.470
they're reserved for probably more senior leaders who are dealing
1404
01:10:57.489 --> 01:11:00.909
with more senior people and diplomats and civilians in the
1405
01:11:00.949 --> 01:11:05.529
course of their senior officer or senior enlisted responsibilities that
1406
01:11:05.590 --> 01:11:06.909
are pertinent to their duties.
1407
01:11:07.029 --> 01:11:08.850
But no, we don't do it. Yes, we should do
1408
01:11:08.869 --> 01:11:09.229
better job.
1409
01:11:10.569 --> 01:11:17.170
Yeah, I think externally, we learned through the years of
1410
01:11:17.229 --> 01:11:21.550
the war about cultural norms of the people that we
1411
01:11:21.590 --> 01:11:23.949
were working with or going to work with. You'd go
1412
01:11:24.050 --> 01:11:28.939
on your pre-deployment training rotation, your training cycle, and you
1413
01:11:28.949 --> 01:11:34.159
would learn customs and some language and some tidbits about
1414
01:11:34.180 --> 01:11:37.520
Iraqis or Afghans, wherever you were going. So you would
1415
01:11:37.579 --> 01:11:40.479
learn to pick up those cues. You would learn how
1416
01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:43.159
to respect them, what was normal in their culture and
1417
01:11:43.260 --> 01:11:44.859
all of those things. And we put a lot of
1418
01:11:45.020 --> 01:11:49.319
effort into training and learning those things.
1419
01:11:49.579 --> 01:11:49.800
Right.
1420
01:11:50.180 --> 01:11:51.739
And a lot of it was focused on guys who
1421
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:53.920
had only been once or, you know, maybe they had
1422
01:11:53.939 --> 01:11:56.199
been to Afghanistan, but not been to Iraq. So you
1423
01:11:56.220 --> 01:11:58.220
had to learn the difference between the two and those
1424
01:11:58.260 --> 01:11:59.920
kinds of things. But when you got to be a
1425
01:11:59.939 --> 01:12:04.090
little more senior, like before my last deployment, you know,
1426
01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:06.670
my last appointment, I was an advisor to the Afghan army.
1427
01:12:07.220 --> 01:12:10.260
But my deployment just months before that, I was the
1428
01:12:10.359 --> 01:12:13.000
aide-de-camp for the three-star run of the ground war. And
1429
01:12:13.060 --> 01:12:16.470
I was dealing with every senior Afghan, you
know, in
1430
01:12:16.510 --> 01:12:19.890
their defense structure, everybody from the minister of defense on down.
1431
01:12:20.470 --> 01:12:23.289
So when I got to this training event, right, and
1432
01:12:23.310 --> 01:12:28.529
they had this simulated role player playing an Afghan battalion commander,
1433
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:33.319
you know, I walked in and had, you know, such
1434
01:12:33.359 --> 01:12:38.109
a great conversation with him that, 15 minutes into it
1435
01:12:38.590 --> 01:12:41.489
the instructor was like okay we can stop you know
1436
01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:45.140
and and then the afghan who was a real afghan
1437
01:12:45.340 --> 01:12:46.880
right he wasn't just a role player he's an actual
1438
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:48.819
afghan right he looks at me he goes i've been
1439
01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:51.039
doing this for two years i've never seen anybody be
1440
01:12:51.060 --> 01:12:53.380
able to do that first time like he goes what
1441
01:12:53.420 --> 01:12:55.520
was your you know how many times have you been
1442
01:12:55.539 --> 01:12:57.060
there and so i kind of gave him my whole
1443
01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:01.890
thing um and then i walked out and the instructor
1444
01:13:01.930 --> 01:13:04.930
was like okay we're gonna have to rewrite some things
1445
01:13:04.989 --> 01:13:08.649
on our end right But mine was learned through experience.
1446
01:13:08.770 --> 01:13:10.430
But we spent a lot of money trying to teach
1447
01:13:10.489 --> 01:13:13.569
people those things. And I turned around and I said,
1448
01:13:13.989 --> 01:13:18.500
why are we not doing this inside of our own military? Like,
1449
01:13:18.619 --> 01:13:22.979
why are we not teaching our leaders how to communicate
1450
01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:25.779
within our own formations the same way that we're worried
1451
01:13:25.819 --> 01:13:29.859
about communicating with our partnered forces, you know, blah, blah, blah.
1452
01:13:29.939 --> 01:13:31.930
And I know the special operations world does a lot
1453
01:13:31.949 --> 01:13:34.970
of that, especially in the Army Special Forces Department. The
1454
01:13:35.010 --> 01:13:37.909
Green Beret types, they do a lot of cultural study,
1455
01:13:37.970 --> 01:13:40.229
language study, that kind of stuff. But they're about the
1456
01:13:40.270 --> 01:13:43.970
only ones who do it. And I and I know,
1457
01:13:44.229 --> 01:13:46.609
you know, the stark difference between the Marine Corps and
1458
01:13:46.630 --> 01:13:50.189
the Army is size. The Army just truthfully looks at
1459
01:13:50.210 --> 01:13:52.130
it and they say, listen, if we've got a guy
1460
01:13:52.149 --> 01:13:53.909
who can't adapt, we're just going to get rid of him.
1461
01:13:53.930 --> 01:13:56.270
We're going to get somebody else. It's not a big deal.
1462
01:13:56.630 --> 01:13:59.390
Like we're not worried about hurting people's feelings all that
1463
01:13:59.430 --> 01:14:04.180
much because we are so big.
We've got a deep bench. Yeah,
1464
01:14:04.220 --> 01:14:09.359
we have a huge deep bench, right? And the Marine
1465
01:14:09.619 --> 01:14:13.439
Corps is literally one quarter the size of the Army.
1466
01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:16.979
So they have to, they should, you guys should, Scott.
1467
01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:18.779
It's not about size, Clay.
1468
01:14:18.800 --> 01:14:19.119
What's that?
1469
01:14:19.439 --> 01:14:20.239
It's not about size.
1470
01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:24.380
Well, it can be. The Army doesn't have its own airplanes.
1471
01:14:24.439 --> 01:14:30.159
That's the big difference. But they can't afford to neglect military.
1472
01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:33.659
You know, they just don't have the same kind of
1473
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:37.460
depth bench, like you said, Tom, to do that. It's
1474
01:14:37.500 --> 01:14:40.060
a very different environment. And I spent a lot of
1475
01:14:40.100 --> 01:14:44.170
time around and in close proximity with some great Marine friends. And,
1476
01:14:45.029 --> 01:14:48.510
you know, I understand the trials and tribulations, like they're underfunded,
1477
01:14:48.590 --> 01:14:52.640
they're poorly equipped, you know, in the comparison, and they
1478
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:54.939
have less assets to deal with. They've got to be
1479
01:14:54.979 --> 01:14:58.239
more judicious in how they apply them. And that includes people.
1480
01:14:59.319 --> 01:15:01.659
the army truthfully is a meat grinder and and it's
1481
01:15:01.699 --> 01:15:04.180
so big that it just really doesn't care.
1482
01:15:03.979 --> 01:15:07.350
All that much so what you're saying then if i'm
1483
01:15:07.369 --> 01:15:09.890
hearing this correct scott maybe i can help out and
1484
01:15:10.029 --> 01:15:12.329
i see i see a realm where we could develop
1485
01:15:12.350 --> 01:15:16.329
you know courses where we could go to quantico and
1486
01:15:16.409 --> 01:15:20.710
teach the cultural norms of the state of virginia to.
1487
01:15:21.989 --> 01:15:24.970
Marines they need it yeah right you know we.
1488
01:15:25.520 --> 01:15:27.819
Oh, you're getting stationed at San Diego.
1489
01:15:27.859 --> 01:15:30.149
Here, we're going to teach you the cultural norms of
1490
01:15:30.689 --> 01:15:33.609
Northern Mexico and Southern California.
1491
01:15:34.689 --> 01:15:37.289
Well, I think we recruit from most of those redneck
1492
01:15:37.310 --> 01:15:39.630
states anyway, so we'll fit in right. That's probably true.
1493
01:15:39.670 --> 01:15:41.899
That's probably true. Well, I appreciate you guys.
1494
01:15:41.949 --> 01:15:43.279
I want to be respectful of your time because I
1495
01:15:43.300 --> 01:15:45.699
know we're going long, but this has been a blast
1496
01:15:45.779 --> 01:15:47.720
and I would love to do it again. But also,
1497
01:15:48.159 --> 01:15:51.279
you know, I think what number, we got to be
1498
01:15:51.319 --> 01:15:57.119
mindful of what number we've gotten Scott to. Because, you know,
1499
01:15:57.260 --> 01:16:01.220
if we hit that five, magical number five, magical number
1500
01:16:01.279 --> 01:16:05.949
five means a character. And you inspired me, Scott. I think, Clay,
1501
01:16:06.270 --> 01:16:08.210
yours is going to be coming. I'll have to get
1502
01:16:08.229 --> 01:16:11.649
your mailing address because Scott inspired me. You talked about
1503
01:16:11.670 --> 01:16:14.210
the mug. And so I think what we're going to
1504
01:16:14.250 --> 01:16:17.069
do is if you get a character made for you,
1505
01:16:17.100 --> 01:16:20.939
we're going to ship you a complimentary mug with your
1506
01:16:20.979 --> 01:16:22.460
character printed on it.
1507
01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:23.439
Love it.
1508
01:16:23.539 --> 01:16:25.060
So that, you know, you can have that.
1509
01:16:25.659 --> 01:16:27.579
Either that or maybe we'll do a we'll do a
1510
01:16:27.640 --> 01:16:30.100
pint glass or a you know a tumbler or something
1511
01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:34.750
that uh uh has your character lazy we got these
1512
01:16:34.829 --> 01:16:37.649
these are cool i chuck john has his but these
1513
01:16:37.710 --> 01:16:39.710
were these are those ones where they put the bullet
1514
01:16:39.750 --> 01:16:42.770
in it and this was for uh uh corporal patino
1515
01:16:43.090 --> 01:16:45.970
claudio patino who was uh we had the um we
1516
01:16:46.010 --> 01:16:48.590
had a whole series on uh the sangin valley and
1517
01:16:48.770 --> 01:16:51.380
and uh the unit that fought in the sanguine valley
1518
01:16:51.399 --> 01:16:52.970
we did like eight episodes and they sent us these
1519
01:16:53.010 --> 01:16:56.010
really cool glasses in memory of uh claudio patino so
1520
01:16:56.489 --> 01:16:58.329
we maybe we'll have to do something like that for
1521
01:16:58.390 --> 01:17:00.050
with the character on or something i don't know but
1522
01:17:00.369 --> 01:17:03.010
clay you're owed one scott we're getting close so we're
1523
01:17:03.029 --> 01:17:05.189
gonna have to start coming up with and spitballing ideas
1524
01:17:06.289 --> 01:17:08.270
i know whatever character it is it's gonna have a
1525
01:17:08.350 --> 01:17:12.560
glorious mane right it has to it has to you
1526
01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:14.979
know i mean you know, it's, I.
1527
01:17:14.939 --> 01:17:18.039
Look forward to being back on with you guys.
1528
01:17:18.060 --> 01:17:20.159
Like we started off as like, I just like hanging
1529
01:17:20.239 --> 01:17:25.659
out with, you know, having some semi-academic conversations that, uh,
1530
01:17:25.880 --> 01:17:29.079
you know, give people thinking about stuff and really pull
1531
01:17:29.100 --> 01:17:30.899
back the curtain on all the things we got away
1532
01:17:30.939 --> 01:17:34.180
with over our careers. And, uh, you know, we're, we're
1533
01:17:34.199 --> 01:17:36.640
in a position now where we're, it's non-attributional and we
1534
01:17:36.680 --> 01:17:38.199
can share a lot of that
stuff. And hopefully some
1535
01:17:38.220 --> 01:17:43.090
of the young listeners are inspired, frightened, and, uh, motivated to,
1536
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:46.649
you know, uh emulate or steer clear of all the
1537
01:17:46.689 --> 01:17:47.750
things we fucked up.
1538
01:17:47.850 --> 01:17:50.829
Man yeah yeah we should have a let's roll it
1539
01:17:50.890 --> 01:17:53.789
up into one word and just say maybe let's hope
1540
01:17:53.810 --> 01:17:58.149
they're just cautious let's see that kind of balls all that.
1541
01:17:58.050 --> 01:18:00.689
Together but motivated i think he needs to be in
1542
01:18:00.710 --> 01:18:04.630
there too because man we we're facing some hard hard
1543
01:18:04.670 --> 01:18:09.050
times ahead and and i think uh i think having
1544
01:18:09.750 --> 01:18:10.970
I don't, I don't envy anybody.
1545
01:18:11.130 --> 01:18:11.470
I choke.
1546
01:18:11.630 --> 01:18:12.390
No, Chuck doesn't either.
1547
01:18:12.409 --> 01:18:14.210
I don't envy anybody that wants to get into law
1548
01:18:14.229 --> 01:18:19.250
enforcement domestically here, uh, anytime soon, but damn it. If you,
1549
01:18:19.390 --> 01:18:20.869
if you're doing it, I'm proud of you and I
1550
01:18:20.909 --> 01:18:22.909
support you. And if my son asked me if he
1551
01:18:22.930 --> 01:18:26.500
should do it, I would say, fuck no. Um, but
1552
01:18:27.020 --> 01:18:28.680
you know, if he really wanted to do it, then
1553
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:32.500
I'd arm him and, and train him and hone him
1554
01:18:32.579 --> 01:18:33.840
to be the best damn.
1555
01:18:33.960 --> 01:18:35.380
Police officer he could possibly be.
1556
01:18:35.399 --> 01:18:39.149
Um, Because if he's bound and determined to do it,
1557
01:18:39.220 --> 01:18:40.659
it's got to be done and it's got to be
1558
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:42.649
done right. And I think the same can be said
1559
01:18:42.750 --> 01:18:45.550
for the Marines. The same could be said for the Army.
1560
01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:48.630
The same could be said for anybody who goes out
1561
01:18:48.689 --> 01:18:53.420
and plays full contact reality. where decision-making has real-time consequences.
1562
01:18:54.180 --> 01:18:57.760
And sometimes they're playing, they're rolling the dice with people's
1563
01:18:57.800 --> 01:19:01.649
lives and their own life. But I wanted to give
1564
01:19:01.710 --> 01:19:04.210
you guys both a chance. It's been fun to have
1565
01:19:04.229 --> 01:19:06.210
you both on and I'm glad we could, you know,
1566
01:19:06.510 --> 01:19:11.010
make this happen. But, you know, Clay, how, fourth, fourth,
1567
01:19:11.369 --> 01:19:13.909
the title. Can we, are we breaking news here yet?
1568
01:19:14.020 --> 01:19:16.100
I know we bug you every time title for the
1569
01:19:16.109 --> 01:19:16.409
fourth book.
1570
01:19:16.439 --> 01:19:18.180
There's other developments we'll have to talk about.
1571
01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:19.020
Oh, okay.
1572
01:19:19.039 -->
01:19:19.880
We'll talk offline.
1573
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:20.960
Other developments.
1574
01:19:21.060 --> 01:19:21.619
I like that.
1575
01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:24.479
Um, and, uh, do you have anything you want to,
1576
01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:26.800
I mean, last night, how did your signing go? Did
1577
01:19:26.819 --> 01:19:27.460
your signing go well?
1578
01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:28.180
Did it already happen?
1579
01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:30.359
It went okay. It was, uh, it was just one
1580
01:19:30.399 --> 01:19:33.399
of those, like, uh, not as well advertised as it
1581
01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:36.380
probably should have been. But, uh, again, that's all kind
1582
01:19:36.420 --> 01:19:39.369
of rolled into, uh, current conditions.
1583
01:19:38.989 --> 01:19:40.909
But that's well i tried to have a different discussion
1584
01:19:40.949 --> 01:19:42.609
for a different day i had to try to have.
1585
01:19:42.510 --> 01:19:44.050
A friend in schaumburg i'm like oh man if i
1586
01:19:44.090 --> 01:19:45.170
could get her to go out there but she was
1587
01:19:45.210 --> 01:19:47.229
working during the time you were over there so i
1588
01:19:47.270 --> 01:19:48.729
was gonna go get her to take a picture and
1589
01:19:48.750 --> 01:19:50.529
get a get a book from you just for shits
1590
01:19:50.560 --> 01:19:51.420
and giggles but uh.
1591
01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:54.420
Anything you want to where can people find you what
1592
01:19:54.819 --> 01:19:55.239
you know.
1593
01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:58.399
Listen folks i'm on uh i'm i'm on uh all
1594
01:19:58.439 --> 01:20:02.960
the socials basically uh x i'm on instagram uh facebook
1595
01:20:03.020 --> 01:20:06.779
scott and i obviously are buddies on linkedin um i
1596
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:09.439
am uh I sit on the board of directors for
1597
01:20:09.449 --> 01:20:12.779
a veteran charity organization called the Alan J. Lynch Medal
1598
01:20:12.819 --> 01:20:16.079
of Honor Veterans Foundation. Al is the only living Medal
1599
01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:17.899
of Honor recipient in the state of Illinois. He has
1600
01:20:17.939 --> 01:20:20.720
a foundation. He's a veteran charity. I sit on the board.
1601
01:20:21.579 --> 01:20:26.090
That is my current focus and passion. So you can
1602
01:20:26.130 --> 01:20:29.510
get online, check them out. Google it, Alan J. Lynch
1603
01:20:30.050 --> 01:20:32.810
Medal of Honor Veterans Foundation. If you're up to it,
1604
01:20:33.130 --> 01:20:36.449
make a donation and it will go to veterans, direct
1605
01:20:36.489 --> 01:20:37.479
to veterans in need.
1606
01:20:38.439 --> 01:20:41.260
And don't forget to check out the Terry Davis book series,
1607
01:20:41.319 --> 01:20:42.819
which Keep Moving, Keep Shooting.
1608
01:20:42.840 --> 01:20:45.079
It's the first one. Cross the Bear is the second one.
1609
01:20:45.579 --> 01:20:49.350
And Rebellious is the third one, all available on Amazon, Kindle,
1610
01:20:49.850 --> 01:20:51.989
all those places where you find fine.
1611
01:20:52.810 --> 01:20:59.039
Hooks, hardcore paperback, hardcover paperback, hardcore. I like that. Scott,
1612
01:20:59.060 --> 01:20:59.539
what about you?
1613
01:20:59.600 --> 01:21:02.439
We want to give you some words at the end.
1614
01:21:03.479 --> 01:21:04.819
Obviously, we know Echo and Ramadi.
1615
01:21:04.859 --> 01:21:07.800
I just got my copy and I'll be sending it
1616
01:21:07.880 --> 01:21:13.789
with the return envelope for you and get your.
1617
01:21:13.710 --> 01:21:18.390
John Hancock on there. I wanted to give you the
1618
01:21:18.409 --> 01:21:19.869
chance to talk about whatever it is you're working on.
1619
01:21:21.090 --> 01:21:23.760
I already mentioned the latest, greatest news.
1620
01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:26.939
I got another veteran writer who's Heading down the path
1621
01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:29.060
to being, you know, he's a published author now. He's
1622
01:21:29.100 --> 01:21:31.060
got a deal and we're going to get him signed
1623
01:21:31.100 --> 01:21:33.899
and inked up. And it's a great story. If you
1624
01:21:34.100 --> 01:21:38.449
liked Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson and A Few Good Men,
1625
01:21:39.130 --> 01:21:43.689
this story called Friendly Fire by Nick Kaufman is, it's
1626
01:21:43.750 --> 01:21:46.350
the true life version. If people want to find out
1627
01:21:46.390 --> 01:21:50.350
more about what I'm doing with my My clients, fellow veterans,
1628
01:21:50.409 --> 01:21:53.829
first responders, you can follow me at Echo Ramadi and
1629
01:21:54.189 --> 01:21:57.890
you can follow our company at Solid Copy Media. We
1630
01:21:57.930 --> 01:22:00.819
have a website for those that are aspiring writers who
1631
01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:03.539
are listeners that want to learn how to write their book,
1632
01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:06.380
to really get kicked in the balls every day and
1633
01:22:06.420 --> 01:22:08.520
go down the path of a writer, as Clay and
1634
01:22:08.560 --> 01:22:13.020
I know all too well. Go to solidcopymedia.com and we're
1635
01:22:13.050 --> 01:22:15.890
happy to talk and consult with guys. And I tell you,
1636
01:22:16.850 --> 01:22:18.130
I can't wait to be on the show again. I
1637
01:22:18.310 --> 01:22:20.510
want to get that number five under my belt.
1638
01:22:20.630 --> 01:22:22.449
It's a goal. I need my badges.
1639
01:22:22.609 --> 01:22:24.680
I love it. I got to get that cup to you.
1640
01:22:24.699 --> 01:22:26.239
I got to get the character design going.
1641
01:22:27.340 --> 01:22:32.140
But solid copy media, you know, is it's solid copy media,
1642
01:22:32.220 --> 01:22:35.960
all one word dot com. And, you know, we've had
1643
01:22:36.020 --> 01:22:38.430
our first conversation and I'll tell you what, just just
1644
01:22:38.529 --> 01:22:42.010
even from our listeners, just even from our brief conversation
1645
01:22:42.029 --> 01:22:45.399
that we had. I got some really good, uh, feedback
1646
01:22:45.439
--> 01:22:49.729
that I've been putting to work, uh, on, uh, my, uh,
1647
01:22:50.149 --> 01:22:52.989
latest revisions and, and, and stuff to my manuscript.
1648
01:22:53.050 --> 01:22:55.229
So thank you for that. And, uh, I know we're
1649
01:22:55.250 --> 01:22:56.760
going to be talking in the future, I'm sure.
1650
01:22:57.529 --> 01:22:59.840
And, uh, anything else that you want working on, you
1651
01:22:59.859 --> 01:23:04.659
got coming up, uh, just, uh, projects, you can write
1652
01:23:04.699 --> 01:23:05.600
a new book, anything.
1653
01:23:05.619 --> 01:23:09.329
Yeah, I'm doing some writing right now. Um, and then, uh,
1654
01:23:09.649 --> 01:23:13.050
I have another client who, uh, Amazing story. I think
1655
01:23:13.069 --> 01:23:15.689
I might have mentioned it. She was on the cover
1656
01:23:15.710 --> 01:23:20.250
of Time Magazine in 2010. We got the launch date
1657
01:23:20.270 --> 01:23:24.819
set for Bibi Aisha's book. It comes out June 6th.
1658
01:23:25.140 --> 01:23:29.119
I'll be sharing more information as that progresses, cover design
1659
01:23:29.180 --> 01:23:32.720
and all that. It's very exciting to be able to
1660
01:23:33.460 --> 01:23:39.680
share a story like hers. We're making a lot of progress.
1661
01:23:40.020 --> 01:23:42.489
The goal is at the beginning and end of every
1662
01:23:42.510 --> 01:23:45.939
day is just to help veterans and first responders, you know,
1663
01:23:46.140 --> 01:23:48.479
share their story is everybody's got a story out there.
1664
01:23:48.619 --> 01:23:51.579
Yeah, absolutely. We share that goal. Well, thank you guys.
1665
01:23:51.899 --> 01:23:53.939
Appreciate it. And Chuck, what do you got for us?
1666
01:23:55.140 --> 01:23:57.550
Well, Scott, thank you so much for coming on.
1667
01:23:58.050 --> 01:23:58.590
It was a pleasure.
1668
01:23:58.630 --> 01:24:02.229
If you want to come on the show, make sure
1669
01:24:02.270 --> 01:24:05.409
to go to check this out at the warlockershow.com. If
1670
01:24:05.430 --> 01:24:06.689
you have a question you want to ask or anything
1671
01:24:06.710 --> 01:24:09.729
like that, send it there. Check this out, thewarlockershow.com. If
1672
01:24:09.770 --> 01:24:11.630
you want to be a guest, make sure to go there.
1673
01:24:12.550 --> 01:24:15.810
You can message us there. You can also go to Facebook,
1674
01:24:15.890 --> 01:24:17.180
Instagram at The Warlocker Show.
1675
01:24:17.800 --> 01:24:18.659
Click the link in the bio.
1676
01:24:18.939 --> 01:24:20.300
You can message us there about getting on.
1677
01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:24.199
You can go to LinkedIn and check us out there.
1678
01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:28.520
But if you really want to stay in tune with us,
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01:24:29.390 --> 01:24:31.430
find us on YouTube. Because every time we go live,
1680
01:24:32.250 --> 01:24:34.630
we're going to go live there. And you're not going
1681
01:24:34.649 --> 01:24:37.050
to miss anything if you click the notification bell. and
1682
01:24:37.090 --> 01:24:40.100
all that stuff, you're going to, you're going to know
1683
01:24:40.180 --> 01:24:42.720
every time we go live or anything, something drops. It's
1684
01:24:43.359 --> 01:24:46.840
the Warlocker show on YouTube at Warlocker show. And you
1685
01:24:46.859 --> 01:24:51.810
can go to the website at www.thewarlockershow.com. So, yeah, I
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01:24:51.850 --> 01:24:53.590
appreciate everybody. Thank you for all the support.
1687
01:24:55.149 --> 01:24:55.329
Yeah.
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01:24:55.489 --> 01:24:58.000
And until our next episode, come home with your shield
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01:24:58.039 --> 01:24:58.380
or on it.