رونوشت کامل Special Report: Sudden Flicker (2026)

00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:30.259 I saw everything. Time went by. As I got into 77 00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:34.949 my sort of early teens, I was more or less 78 00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:39.509 on course to go to university. I was supposed to 79 00:05:39.550 --> 00:05:43.470 be doing all my homework and so on. And in fact, 80 00:05:43.550 --> 00:05:48.759 I was sneaking off to movies. And my mother, in great, 81 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.300 great wisdom, I think, said, well, I don't really approve 82 00:05:53.379 --> 00:05:56.529 of you going to all these movies. If you're going 83 00:05:56.550 --> 00:06:00.949 to go see them, all I ask is that you 84 00:06:01.009 --> 00:06:06.230 write something about them. So I would begin to write 85 00:06:06.610 --> 00:06:10.730 on yellow legal pads. I didn't think of it as 86 00:06:10.810 --> 00:06:18.449 a film review, but forgive me. I was writing a review, 87 00:06:18.470 --> 00:06:23.009 and I probably wrote a couple of hundred like that 88 00:06:23.709 --> 00:06:29.939 in my teen years. I found the challenge of saying 89 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:36.339 what I had felt about a film very interesting. At 90 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:40.939 that point, I began to think to myself, well, do 91 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.910 I really want to go to Oxford and study history, 92 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:47.149 which was the course I was on, or do I 93 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:52.870 want to do something more directly related to this extraordinary 94 00:06:52.930 --> 00:06:59.199 passion in my life? I saw an advertisement for a 95 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:03.540 place called the London School of Film Technique, which was 96 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.139 in fact, I didn't know it, but in fact it 97 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.850 was the only place in England at the level of 98 00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:15.569 higher education where film was studied. This was 1960. So 99 00:07:15.870 --> 00:07:19.550 I gave up my place at Oxford and I went 100 00:07:19.589 --> 00:07:23.459 to film school. And a life of ruin ensued. 101 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:29.279 Growing up in the 50s, 60s, and then eventually into 102 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:32.899 the 70s, where you're probably already working at that time, 103 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.139 I mean, this is a great era of film. And 104 00:07:36.170 --> 00:07:40.050 I'm so curious, what types of movies or what things 105 00:07:40.129 --> 00:07:42.509 really kind of blew your mind when you were seeing 106 00:07:42.529 --> 00:07:43.410 them for the first time? 107 00:07:44.370 --> 00:07:50.959 Well, as a very young kid, I loved adventure. That 108 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:56.290 was often westerns. Red River. was a very. 109 00:07:55.910 --> 00:08:01.699 Important film in my childhood. And it made me just 110 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:05.899 want to be there with that gang of cowboys driving cattle. 111 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:08.360 Not a thing at which I think I would have 112 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:12.350 been

very good, but imaginatively, I wanted to be there 113 00:08:12.389 --> 00:08:16.730 doing it. And I suppose as I grew older, I 114 00:08:17.750 --> 00:08:21.620 began to feel attracted to love stories in a way which, 115 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:26.009 as a young child, I... I had flinched from love stories. 116 00:08:26.050 --> 00:08:29.220 Those terrible kissing scenes, you know, I don't want to 117 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.340 look kind of thing. I began to feel, well, kissing 118 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.379 looks as if it might be pretty good. And, you know, 119 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.440 in the natural. 120 00:08:39.070 --> 00:08:39.909 Way of growing up. 121 00:08:40.629 --> 00:08:46.649 And it was in my mid-teens, about 15 or so, 122 00:08:47.490 --> 00:08:51.509 that I saw Citizen Kane for the first time. And 123 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:55.399 I had read a little bit. to indicate that this 124 00:08:55.460 --> 00:09:00.090 was a very important film. And I went to see it, 125 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:07.179 and I simply could not understand it, but I felt 126 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:14.580 more emotionally moved and sort of mentally engaged than I. 127 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.110 Ever had in a film. 128 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:20.429 And I would never have been able to articulate it 129 00:09:20.490 --> 00:09:22.870 in this way, but I suppose what happened was that 130 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:27.519 I saw this medium had a depth that really was 131 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:32.529 not sufficiently covered by the word entertainment. I loved the 132 00:09:32.590 --> 00:09:36.649 entertainment value in films, but it was clear to me 133 00:09:36.769 --> 00:09:41.370 that they could be as profound as things that also 134 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:44.210 moved me greatly. I mean, I was a huge Miles 135 00:09:44.470 --> 00:09:49.539 Davis fan around the same time, and I was reading... 136 00:09:50.019 --> 00:09:54.750 People like Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner, not always understanding, but 137 00:09:55.610 --> 00:09:58.750 really engaged. And I saw that film could be like that, too. 138 00:10:00.269 --> 00:10:05.759 And so, I mean, initially, I wanted to make films, 139 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.419 you know. I think any kid who's carried away by 140 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:12.850 the medium wants to do that. And I sort of, 141 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:17.820 I did for a while. And I still am interested 142 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:23.529 in writing for films. But writing about film became my career. 143 00:10:23.950 --> 00:10:29.269 And teaching. All connected. So here we are. At the 144 00:10:29.309 --> 00:10:32.870 age of 85. I'm still excited. 145 00:10:33.889 --> 00:10:37.649 I'm wise enough to think I probably took a disastrous 146 00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:38.769 career direction. 147 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:40.750 But there we are. You know. 148 00:10:41.529 --> 00:10:45.080 Maybe you have a similar story to tell. Maybe you've 149 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:46.059 gone the same way. 150 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:46.740 I don't know. 151 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:47.899 Look. 152 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.919 I love the kind of metafiction that you do. You're 153 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:57.480 kind of mixing both the movies and writing fiction stuff, 154 00:10:57.500 --> 00:11:02.529 but especially the Warren Beatty book. I just really liked that, 155 00:11:02.549 --> 00:11:04.269 and I liked your approach to that so much. 156 00:11:05.230 --> 00:11:10.149 Well, you know, I did... I don't know how to 157 00:11:10.230 --> 00:11:17.620 express this adequately. I did begin to feel that my urge... 158 00:11:18.620 --> 00:11:22.480 to make movies and my interest in writing, because I 159 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:28.299 love writing, meshed and led me into writing and thinking 160 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:34.419 of stories about what happened to the characters in films 161 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:38.960 when the film was over. I was really fascinated in that. 162 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.539 And when I saw Rebel Without a Cause, which was 163 00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:49.840 a very important film in my youth, I lived and 164 00:11:49.929 --> 00:11:56.240 daydreamed for a year at least, wondering what happened to 165 00:11:56.299 --> 00:12:00.860 Dean and Natalie Wood, the couple who are teenagers but 166 00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:04.500 are sort of almost a married couple by the end 167 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:09.009 of the film. And I was really fascinated in that. 168 00:12:09.470 --> 00:12:13.669 And I still, when I see a film that really 169 00:12:13.730 --> 00:12:17.149 gets me, I sort of take the characters. 170 00:12:16.690 --> 00:12:17.909 Home and live with them. 171 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:20.700 And I think that led me into a way of 172 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:26.559 writing about film stories as if they were constant dreams 173 00:12:26.899 --> 00:12:30.600 that one could get into and get out of, as 174 00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:36.289 you wished. And, you know, I still am intrigued by that. 175 00:12:36.570 --> 00:12:39.990 I have a notion. I'm not going to go into 176 00:12:40.009 --> 00:12:44.029 it in detail, but I have a notion about a book. 177 00:12:44.620 --> 00:12:47.779 I'll never write it, I think, but I think about 178 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.419 writing it, which is about Warren Bailey as an old man, 179 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:57.080 which is what he is. And I think a man 180 00:12:57.139 --> 00:13:02.159 who doesn't really like to leave home, that would interest 181 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:07.620 me as a character study. So I'm still thinking that way, yeah. 182 00:13:08.419 --> 00:13:10.679 I think the first book of yours that I read 183 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.879 was the Rosebud, the Orson Welles book that you wrote. 184 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:18.710 What was the state of Orson Welles' scholarship at that time? 185 00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:21.309 Because now, you know, you can't throw a

stone without 186 00:13:21.370 --> 00:13:24.549 reading a Oliver Stone, Oliver Stone, Orson Welles book. 187 00:13:26.149 --> 00:13:32.299 Well, I mean, you know, going back in my teens, 188 00:13:32.860 --> 00:13:38.919 in the 50s, as I say, I had found a 189 00:13:39.019 --> 00:13:41.889 couple of books and there were very few books on 190 00:13:41.950 --> 00:13:45.070 film in those days. I had found a couple of 191 00:13:45.129 --> 00:13:49.950 books that said Citizen Kane is an important film. The 192 00:13:50.009 --> 00:13:54.789 problem was you couldn't see it because we're talking about 193 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:58.580 a film culture, which I think applied in America just 194 00:13:58.629 --> 00:14:02.500 as much as it did in England, where cinema showed 195 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:06.200 new films and nothing else. That was the way the 196 00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:11.580 business worked. So that after a film had opened, it's run, 197 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:17.740 it went away. And it was impossible to see old 198 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:22.620 films because all the things that we now take for granted, 199 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:29.090 like television running movies, like DVDs, like streaming, they weren't there. 200 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.950 And you might have to wait years to see a 201 00:14:34.990 --> 00:14:38.730 film you'd heard about. And I thought in 1955 that 202 00:14:41.149 --> 00:14:44.929 The world was waiting to see Citizen Kane again. And 203 00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:48.950 when I went to this little repertory cinema near my 204 00:14:48.990 --> 00:14:52.860 house in London, I assumed there would be a great 205 00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:55.480 line of people waiting to see it. I was the 206 00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:01.899 only person there. Wow. So, I mean, there was no scholarship. 207 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.559 There was really no study in Wells. And if you 208 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:10.789 had said Orson Welles to the ordinary person, They probably 209 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:14.309 would have said the third man. That was the thing 210 00:15:14.350 --> 00:15:17.370 for which Wells was most known. I'm sure that was, 211 00:15:17.450 --> 00:15:23.070 in fact, the first time I encountered him. And it 212 00:15:23.169 --> 00:15:33.740 wasn't until the 60s that people started taking Wells seriously. And, 213 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.019 you know, people like Peter Bogdanovich wrote about him and 214 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.980 It became generally accepted that Citizen Kane really was a 215 00:15:42.019 --> 00:15:45.360 great film and you could see it again. And then 216 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:51.360 in the early 1970s, Pauline Kael, who was the critic 217 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.019 for The New Yorker and. 218 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:56.720 A very, very good writer, she wrote. 219 00:15:56.419 --> 00:16:01.399 What really was an attack on Citizen Kane. I think 220 00:16:01.490 --> 00:16:05.350 she knew it was an extraordinary film, but I think 221 00:16:05.389 --> 00:16:09.740 she thought it had been overrated. I think also she 222 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:13.840 had a certain ambition to write something that would draw 223 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:18.279 attention to her, which it did. And it sort of 224 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:23.860 polarized feelings about Wells because those people who loved him 225 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.700 rallied to his support and a few people understood what 226 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.419 Cale was saying, that it was an overrated film, a 227 00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:35.169 shallow film. She called it, in fact, a shallow masterpiece. 228 00:16:35.950 --> 00:16:39.059 And from that point on, And Wells, of course, was 229 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:43.019 still alive. And one of the things he did all 230 00:16:43.059 --> 00:16:46.779 his life was give extraordinary interviews. So he would give 231 00:16:47.299 --> 00:16:52.679 very long interviews for television stations, things like that, where 232 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.470 he talked beautifully because he was a very articulate, eloquent man, 233 00:16:57.490 --> 00:17:02.610 one of the great voices of our age. And from 234 00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:08.210 then on, he became a central figure And I would 235 00:17:08.289 --> 00:17:11.390 say that at the level of teaching, the. 236 00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:15.349 Director who was most taught. 237 00:17:15.670 --> 00:17:19.890 In England and America and outside would have been Hitchcock. 238 00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:24.750 I think he's the favorite director to teach. But I 239 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:31.150 think probably Wells was second. And a rush of books began. 240 00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:37.740 And then Simon Cowell began his series. which is still unfinished, 241 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:43.339 many volumes of biography. And as you say, the Wells 242 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.140 shelf in the library and in my own office, you 243 00:17:47.180 --> 00:17:50.400 can't see it, but it's just over my shoulder. It's 244 00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:54.559 one of the biggest shelves, and I only have a 245 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:58.150 fraction of the books that have been done on Wells. 246 00:17:58.349 --> 00:18:05.509 But, you know, a great filmmaker, a great raconteur, a 247 00:18:05.549 --> 00:18:06.829 great personality. 248 00:18:06.849 --> 00:18:09.410 You know, we haven't even mentioned the War of the 249 00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:14.480 Worlds on radio, which was such a big event in 1938, 250 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:21.180 when he was so young. So, so brilliant, and yet 251 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:26.619 an unfulfilled career too, so that he became emblematic of 252 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:32.480 the way ambitions can be crushed in the film business. So, 253 00:18:32.509 --> 00:18:38.710 you know, That's a long-winded answer to your question, but yeah, 254 00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:40.190 things change with Wells. 255 00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:43.769 Well, let's talk

about the newest one, A Sudden Flicker 256 00:18:43.789 --> 00:18:47.230 of Light, A Revisionist History of Movies, and the subtitle, 257 00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:50.789 The Revisionist History of Movies. I really want to dig 258 00:18:50.829 --> 00:18:52.630 into that with you. What does that mean for you? 259 00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:59.430 Well, I have seen, as anyone my age will have seen, 260 00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:05.589 a huge... expansion in the film library. So, you know, 261 00:19:06.390 --> 00:19:13.430 there are books now on individual directors, actors, writers. It's 262 00:19:13.470 --> 00:19:15.490 a huge library. 263 00:19:16.369 --> 00:19:18.990 And there were a few subjects that haven't been covered 264 00:19:19.049 --> 00:19:23.329 or touched yet, but only a few. But with all 265 00:19:23.349 --> 00:19:28.380 the concentration on specific individual subjects, there's been a way 266 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:34.400 in which I think the larger picture has been overlooked. 267 00:19:35.859 --> 00:19:40.769 In recent years, I've become increasingly conscious about where the 268 00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:44.910 medium is going, and that involves some sense of where 269 00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:49.369 it has come from. So I thought that there was 270 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:54.839 a point and a usefulness maybe in writing a one volume, 271 00:19:55.079 --> 00:20:01.900 fairly concise, selective history of the whole medium. And I 272 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:04.960 realized that one of the things that would be a 273 00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:12.839 challenge in that project was looking past the individual careers 274 00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:17.839 and saying, really, what has this medium done for our 275 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:23.519 culture as a whole and for understanding? And even as 276 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.720 I worked on the book over the last, let's say, 277 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:28.059 the last three years that. 278 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:29.579 I've been on the book one way or another. 279 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:35.609 It's become increasingly clear that the medium is in a 280 00:20:35.730 --> 00:20:41.470 drastic process of alteration. The thing that we once called 281 00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:44.950 special effects, which we thought was cute and clever and 282 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:51.819 funny and cunning and diverting, has become a process whereby 283 00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:57.700 the medium that was once photographic is electronic. So that 284 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:03.440 the relationship between us and the reality we're looking at 285 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:09.839 is shifting. And I think by now... Literally, this has happened, 286 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.400 I would say, in the last year. It's gathered momentum 287 00:21:13.460 --> 00:21:17.299 in an amazing way. And the ways in which the 288 00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:22.460 thing that we call AI, which is like sci-fi magnified 289 00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:29.750 to an extraordinary extent, is compromising, taking over, corrupting, diverting 290 00:21:29.769 --> 00:21:34.049 the thing that we've all been so delighted to watch 291 00:21:34.170 --> 00:21:39.900 and so entertained by. And what's revisionist in the book 292 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.960 I've done is really a way of saying, look at 293 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.559 the whole thing, because God knows where it is going 294 00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:50.460 and what is going to happen to us in the 295 00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:52.480 way it goes and what's going to happen to the 296 00:21:52.529 --> 00:21:59.630 individuals who try to make films. You know, I lived through, 297 00:22:00.609 --> 00:22:02.430 treasure the fact that I lived through it, and I'm 298 00:22:02.490 --> 00:22:04.990 sure you did too, You're younger than I am, but, 299 00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:07.430 you know, you're close enough in age, you've known it. 300 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:14.640 We knew the time when entertainment movies worked for millions 301 00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:19.650 of people and were also pretty good and pretty serious. Now, 302 00:22:19.690 --> 00:22:24.230 you think of films... The 70s was a great moment, 303 00:22:25.509 --> 00:22:33.079 the early 70s. And, you know, Chinatown, Taxi Driver, Cuckoo's Nest... 304 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:34.500 and many. 305 00:22:34.339 --> 00:22:35.210 Other films like that. 306 00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:40.980 Dark, serious films about the world we lived in, but 307 00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:44.460 films you wanted to see over and over again because 308 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:50.299 they were so good. That, I think, that age has 309 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:55.640 passed already. I think that there is an increasing divergence 310 00:22:55.740 --> 00:23:00.559 between huge box office films and films that are really interesting. 311 00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.519 And It came along too late for me to include 312 00:23:04.539 --> 00:23:07.380 it in the book, but if I could do a coda, 313 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:13.460 it would certainly include The Odyssey, which is one of 314 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:19.049 the all-time successful entertainments, and I think it's crap. I 315 00:23:19.490 --> 00:23:25.230 really think it's a hollow sham of a film, and 316 00:23:25.390 --> 00:23:30.039 I feel increasingly that future is coming in which.... 317 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:33.809 Probably the only films really worth. 318 00:23:35.089 --> 00:23:38.250 Seeing and talking about and arguing about are going to 319 00:23:38.289 --> 00:23:44.009 be very small, personal, difficult films that will be harder 320 00:23:44.049 --> 00:23:47.319 and harder to see because they're not going to fit 321 00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:54.180 with the commercial streaming process that says, this is a hit. And, 322 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:58.180 you know, The Odyssey is enormously influential in the sense 323 00:23:58.259 --> 00:24:02.000 that It convinces the people behind the big business that 324

00:24:02.380 --> 00:24:08.319 the big pictures can still work. I don't think they 325 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:12.339 are working. And I think a lot of people kidded 326 00:24:12.380 --> 00:24:16.220 themselves about the Odyssey. I think in a couple of years, 327 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.920 the Odyssey may look as dumb as the sound of music. 328 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:22.480 That's my opinion. 329 00:24:23.710 --> 00:24:27.039 I found it such a fascinating phenomenon, just boots on 330 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.400 the ground and seeing so many of my coworkers and 331 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.640 friends driving across the state and spending the night and 332 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:39.730 making day trips to go see this in 70 millimeter. 333 00:24:39.750 --> 00:24:40.910 It was wild. 334 00:24:40.930 --> 00:24:44.630 Amazing phenomenon. Yeah, yeah. 335 00:24:44.809 --> 00:24:49.630 It was almost as if a great preacher had suddenly appeared. 336 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:53.460 On the horizon, and everyone rushed to him. And, you know, 337 00:24:53.500 --> 00:24:56.240 there is something cult-like about it, I think. 338 00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:01.049 No, I would say a lot of Nolan's films fit 339 00:25:01.069 --> 00:25:01.509 into that. 340 00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:02.809 You would say what? 341 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:05.609 A lot of Nolan's films seem to fit into that. 342 00:25:05.650 --> 00:25:09.109 He seems to be this, you know, even with Tenet 343 00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:12.079 and bringing people back to the theater after the pandemic, 344 00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:12.740 it was such a. 345 00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:17.299 Yeah, absolutely. Fascinating thing. Yeah, yeah. 346 00:25:17.849 --> 00:25:20.609 Anyway, that's what I've tried to do in this book. 347 00:25:22.150 --> 00:25:25.819 And also, a part of the book, an important part 348 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:30.559 of the book, is the feeling that Donald Trump is 349 00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:35.700 a movie. He's an ongoing movie. Some days you think 350 00:25:36.259 --> 00:25:39.549 it's a farce, and some days you think it's a 351 00:25:39.609 --> 00:25:43.289 horror film. And it's actually both at the same time, 352 00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:45.549 and God knows where it's going. 353 00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:50.630 Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I was curious as far as how 354 00:25:50.670 --> 00:25:53.259 you even decided how to shape this book, because it 355 00:25:53.630 --> 00:25:56.140 could go off in so many different directions. I'm sure 356 00:25:56.180 --> 00:25:57.880 you had to be very careful as far as just 357 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.079 what you wanted to keep bound within those pages. 358 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:05.049 Yeah, I mean, shaping it was a big thing, and 359 00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:09.509 I was very much helped by my editor at Simon 360 00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:14.309 & Schuster, Jonathan Zhao. Did a great job on the book. 361 00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:18.980 I wrote some stuff that I cut. I

didn't write 362 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:21.380 some things that I really think maybe I should have done. 363 00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:25.329 I wanted it to be a book of sort of 364 00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:31.009 350 pages, a certain workable length. And that meant I 365 00:26:31.049 --> 00:26:39.299 had to choose films to concentrate on. There's a lot 366 00:26:39.339 --> 00:26:43.059 left out of the book, but I hope the book 367 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:46.450 talks about the whole thing in a way that The 368 00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:48.970 things not mentioned fit into it, too. 369 00:26:49.789 --> 00:26:52.130 That's my hope, you know. I mean, I can do 370 00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:55.059 another book, you know. I'm only 85. Come on, you know. 371 00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:56.470 Keep at it. 372 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.259 Yeah, if you keep practicing long enough, maybe one of 373 00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:00.839 these will hit. 374 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.279 I might get it right eventually. 375 00:27:05.829 --> 00:27:07.930 You said that it took about three years to write this, 376 00:27:07.970 --> 00:27:10.809 and I can believe it because it's so in-depth. And 377 00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:14.609 I just love that every page was a little bit 378 00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:16.190 of a surprise for me when I would turn it. 379 00:27:16.990 --> 00:27:22.809 I'm so glad to hear that because I felt, keep 380 00:27:22.869 --> 00:27:27.150 the reader a little bit on guard but off kilter. 381 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:32.299 Don't let them settle into this book. So that I 382 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:35.240 did have a plan that I would be saying one 383 00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:38.559 thing and then I would dart away into something else 384 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.220 that I can see fitting with it but might not 385 00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:46.630 immediately persuade other people that it does. So yeah, there's 386 00:27:46.670 --> 00:27:49.490 a kind of, it's a bit like a movie in 387 00:27:49.509 --> 00:27:53.960 that it keeps cutting something else that fits once you 388 00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:55.599 see the two next to each other. 389 00:27:56.380 --> 00:27:57.440 I think, I hope. 390 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:02.000 What's a very kind of editor's mindset that you're approaching? 391 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:03.839 Yes, yes. 392 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:09.750 Well, you know, I grew up thinking that photography was 393 00:28:09.789 --> 00:28:15.180 the essence of film. And I loved films that let 394 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.990 a shot play out in time, have the camera move. 395 00:28:19.630 --> 00:28:23.450 I love the sort of fluidity of the medium and 396 00:28:23.470 --> 00:28:26.809 the feeling that you were watching a real thing. I 397 00:28:29.529 --> 00:28:34.390 would say now that I think the most decisive effect 398 00:28:34.450 --> 00:28:35.289 of film. 399 00:28:35.109 --> 00:28:35.890 Is the editing. 400 00:28:36.450 --> 00:28:41.720 It's the ability to put two different things together in 401 00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:45.559 a way that gives you a thing that you did 402 00:28:45.579 --> 00:28:46.200 not foresee. 403 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.109 It's like the dissolve in Henry V. 404 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:56.259 It's like one shot, sleeping boys, and the flames, and 405 00:28:56.299 --> 00:28:59.660 they mesh, and you suddenly get a kind of intellectual, 406 00:29:00.289 --> 00:29:03.990 emotional explosion in your head as you're watching. 407 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:08.630 I'm so curious as far as, was there one particular 408 00:29:08.650 --> 00:29:14.170 moment or time that really spoke to you to have 409 00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:15.779 you begin writing on this? 410 00:29:16.500 --> 00:29:19.000 You mean in terms of actually doing the book? Yeah. 411 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:25.440 I thought it was clear to me in advance that 412 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.380 The Godfather was going to be a very important film 413 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:35.170 because The Godfather is without doubt a masterpiece of a 414 00:29:35.230 --> 00:29:41.880 certain kind of narrative filmmaking. Everything about it is superbly 415 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.200 chosen and composed. At the same time, it had seemed 416 00:29:47.259 --> 00:29:53.500 to me that The Godfather encouraged a kind of male 417 00:29:53.640 --> 00:30:00.519 gang mentality that I dislike intensely. And you know, to 418 00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:06.519 tie things together, seems to me that Donald Trump is 419 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:09.640 a man who has seen The Godfather far too many 420 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:14.779 times so that he has absorbed it into his being 421 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.529 and his language and the way he is on camera. 422 00:30:18.349 --> 00:30:22.990 And that is very frightening, I think, because The Godfather 423 00:30:23.109 --> 00:30:27.990 is about dreadful people doing dreadful things, and the process 424 00:30:28.049 --> 00:30:32.710 of movie has made them glamorous, and they should not 425 00:30:32.789 --> 00:30:36.430 be glamorous. So I saw that as being a very 426 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:40.880 important film in certainly the latter part of this book. 427 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.680 The Godfather is now 50 years old. It's amazing, but 428 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.559 it feels like a film that could have been made yesterday. 429 00:30:48.579 --> 00:30:52.900 A very troubling, disconcerting film. 430 00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:56.710 No, I can definitely see that. And yeah, no, I 431 00:30:57.109 --> 00:31:01.880 very much appreciated that you were not afraid to talk 432 00:31:01.900 --> 00:31:04.640 about trump and and go into that whole arena as 433 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:07.569 well because who knows what the heck's going to happen 434 00:31:07.589 --> 00:31:09.369 with this it's one of these you know you're talking 435 00:31:09.390 --> 00:31:11.549 about this is a movie and i agree it feels 436 00:31:11.589 --> 00:31:14.450 very

much like a movie a tragedy a comedy all 437 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:17.569 these things in between a horror film but i can't 438 00:31:17.630 --> 00:31:20.710 see the end i can't normally if i walk into 439 00:31:20.730 --> 00:31:22.650 a film or if i see a trailer i can 440 00:31:23.069 --> 00:31:24.589 pretty much tell you what's going to happen in this 441 00:31:24.650 --> 00:31:26.450 film this one i can't see. 442 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.359 The I agree with you totally, but isn't it one 443 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.700 of the great things about certain movies that after an 444 00:31:33.740 --> 00:31:37.400 hour and 15 minutes or whatever, you say, my God, 445 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:41.059 how is this going to end? 446 00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:46.289 How indeed? Will its ending be the ending to virtually everything? 447 00:31:46.769 --> 00:31:47.950 Who knows? Who knows? 448 00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:51.410 What were some of the biggest challenges of writing this, 449 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:54.950 or can you just pump these out now that you've 450 00:31:54.990 --> 00:31:56.769 done dozens of books? 451 00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:03.369 I love writing, and I do not have any trouble writing. 452 00:32:04.089 --> 00:32:07.970 I'm very lucky that I haven't had writer's block for decades. 453 00:32:08.130 --> 00:32:12.519 I did have it in my 20s, 30s, quite a bit. 454 00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:19.420 I can write, but some days what I write may 455 00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:22.740 be good, and then the next day, it's awful. 456 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.640 And I would say the biggest test and challenge. 457 00:32:26.329 --> 00:32:30.769 I feel is knowing which is which and organizing a 458 00:32:31.029 --> 00:32:35.470 book so that you look back at what you wrote 459 00:32:35.869 --> 00:32:39.029 last week, you felt, my God, this is good. And 460 00:32:39.069 --> 00:32:42.130 then this week, you say, no, it's not actually good. 461 00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:46.859 I was going down a wrong side turning then. And 462 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:51.140 I've got to be brave enough to junk that or 463 00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:52.359 junk most of it. 464 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.710 There's a couple of paragraphs in there that are. 465 00:32:55.690 --> 00:33:01.130 Quite good and that was something I should retrieve and develop. 466 00:33:01.930 --> 00:33:05.069 And I think the biggest test I have in writing 467 00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:12.589 is that sort of organizational thing. It's knowing what will 468 00:33:12.670 --> 00:33:17.089 work and in what order it will work and making 469 00:33:17.170 --> 00:33:18.730 those decisions. 470 00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:22.279 How many books do you work on at a time? 471 00:33:24.970 --> 00:33:31.950 I would say that I frequently will have two or 472 00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:32.910 three books. 473 00:33:32.690 --> 00:33:36.329 In my head. Only one of them at a time 474 00:33:36.410 --> 00:33:43.150 am I really writing. Another one I might be planning, 475 00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:47.970 and another one still I might be regretting that I 476 00:33:48.549 --> 00:33:52.329 made mistakes, which I could go back to. So that, 477 00:33:52.710 --> 00:33:56.410 you know, I would say three books at a time 478 00:33:56.450 --> 00:33:58.490 are in my head. Wow. 479 00:33:59.289 --> 00:34:01.990 Which, actually, I don't think is unusual. I think a 480 00:34:02.029 --> 00:34:04.900 lot of writers would say that. 481 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:08.320 I mean, often writers say, well, I really have to 482 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.480 concentrate entirely on one thing. 483 00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:13.230 And maybe I. 484 00:34:15.630 --> 00:34:18.989 I always have other things in my head. You know, 485 00:34:19.030 --> 00:34:21.619 just as I have an ongoing life, I have a wife, 486 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:28.199 I have children, I'm following, I'm getting ready for the 49ers, 487 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:32.179 having a season. You know, I follow Chelsea Football Club 488 00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:35.510 in England. There's a whole lot of things that occupy 489 00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:43.909 me in a very serious way. And I think concentration 490 00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:47.449 is a precious thing. thing, but it's a luxury I 491 00:34:47.510 --> 00:34:51.449 don't feel suited to. I like to have a lot 492 00:34:51.489 --> 00:34:51.989 going on. 493 00:34:54.849 --> 00:34:57.130 Well, what's next for you? What's the next one that 494 00:34:57.289 --> 00:34:59.210 you're just about ready for? 495 00:34:59.230 --> 00:35:05.829 Well, I'm doing a book now about Mickey Mouse. Oh, wow. 496 00:35:06.670 --> 00:35:11.110 I've never written about animation before, at all. I was 497 00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:14.190 tempted into this by a publisher, and. 498 00:35:15.940 --> 00:35:16.500 We will see. 499 00:35:16.539 --> 00:35:21.750 But it's about Mickey Mouse and about Disney and about 500 00:35:21.829 --> 00:35:25.119 Disneyfication and animation in general.