رونوشت کامل Building the Web Since Before It Was "The Web": A Conversation with Nicole Hanusek of Smack Happy Design

does the development. 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:57.439 Um, and like you said, sometimes there's like a mobile expert who emphasize like their expertise is making sure that it's on mobile, um, which is crazy to think that you got started before that was even a thing. 00:04:57.759 --> 00:04:58.079 Right. 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:03.360 We didn't even we had cell phones, but not the kind of cell phones we have today. 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:05.680 Um, that is fascinating. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:10.160 So um I just completely lost my train of thought. 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.160 The um because I was thinking about how you got the design. 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.959 So is that changing your approach? 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:27.279 Um because you have that that extra experience that a lot of designers don't have, where you're sounds like you're doing the design, but you also have that development background and knowledge. 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.360 So, how does that affect um how you approach your work? 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:37.279 Well, when I started hiring people, I was looking for people that did both design and code. 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:42.240 And I was pretty stubborn about it and refused to hire them to vote. 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:50.079 So I actually have a team of like these rare unicorns that can do both the development and the design. 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.439 Nice, and a lot of us also have like an artsy background, too, very, very creative people. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:06.319 Um, so so for me, it it just kind of made me go even deeper into like trying to find that rare person. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:07.439 Nice. 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:08.000 I love that. 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.000 So that ended up being kind of a niche for you. 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.120 I love how that you always fall into that. 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:18.959 Um, is there a platform that you work with more than others, or are you cross-platform? 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:20.560 What's what's your preference? 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.040 Yeah, we are WordPress only. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:38.800 Um because of that, we have come across some very interesting issues with WordPress, and the team is really good at figuring out what the heck is going on under the hood when things go wrong. 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:39.519 Nice. 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.480 What kinds of issues do you tend to come up with in WordPress? 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:49.120 Uh well, recently there was one where, like, in a design, like all of the text was shifting. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.600 Like, let's say you had some circles or a box, the text was like shifting out of the box. 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:54.240 Oh. 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:56.800 That was an interesting one. 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:58.720 That is interesting. 00:06:59.040 --> 00:06:59.360 Yeah. 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.120 Turns out that it's a conflict with the theme and bootstrap. 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.680 Bootstrap is like a CSS framework. 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:06.240 Okay. 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:10.319 Like uh the theme doesn't necessarily also use that same framework. 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:11.920 They might have their own framework. 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.720 So those two things were conflicting. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:16.240 Okay, I get it. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:26.480 So they were getting like the the website, so to speak, was getting like two different orders, and it was trying to figure out which one to to obey, so to speak. 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:28.319 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:29.360 Awesome. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.879 Um, I mean, not awesome that that's happening, but that is fascinating. 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:38.000 Um, do you guys do templates or themes, or is everything you do custom built? 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:43.439 Well, we love to use um a theme and WYSIWYG editor called Beaver Builder. 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.160 Have you I haven't heard of that one, no? 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:47.040 I love it. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:52.480 It's a lot like um Divi or WP Bakery uh or Elementor. 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:53.920 They're all they all do the same thing. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:55.519 They're called WYSIWYG editors. 00:07:55.680 --> 00:08:05.839 What you see is what you get, where you can like drag and drop things around, and it's supposed to be easier to use for like your average person who doesn't know this stuff. 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:16.800 And of all of those um WYSIWYG editors, I feel that Beaver Builder is the best because it is actually like what you see is like what you're working with. 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:29.279 And it's um it's a lot lighter, so it'll load faster in the browser when you're editing, but also like when a viewer is looking at the site, there's not all this extra stuff being added. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:36.159 Um, so we we really love Beaver Builder and so we don't use templates, everything we do is from scratch. 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:43.759 Um, so that's part of what you get when you work with us, is that we're not just gonna grab some stuff that exists and just throw it. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:46.639 Awesome. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:53.120 Um, is there a reason that you work with WordPress over the other platforms, or is it did you just kind of fall into it? 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:57.279 Well, when I started my company, I started freelancing. 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:02.559 Um, you know, I was doing all this research on how to you know make it work. 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.799 And one of the things was to choose a niche. 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.279 So 17 years ago, I was like, all right, my niche is WordPress. 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:17.519 And so then I like as I would hire people, I'd hire people that knew WordPress really well. 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:18.399 Awesome. 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:28.879 Yeah, that is one of those things that comes up with again and again in every business tip and

business book and business everything is the riches are in the niches. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:38.000 Um I don't we haven't gotten into how did you go from working for this other agency as a designer to having your own company? 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:47.039 Yeah, I was at that first company for about four years, two years while in college, and then two years full-time after. 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:52.559 And that's kind of what how I learned most of what I do now for like web consulting. 00:09:53.039 --> 00:10:02.720 And then um I dabbled in some other stuff and then eventually um moved out here to the Bay Area from Cleveland. 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:08.799 Nice and when I moved out here, I was at Alexa Internet, which is very old school. 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:14.000 Um, they they had created the toolbar that went into your Internet Explorer browser. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:14.559 Okay. 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:20.000 And then because this toolbar was in the browsers, they knew which websites everyone was visiting. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:27.279 So you would get an Alexa ranking, and if you were in like the top 10 or top 100, that would help like the valuation of your company. 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:38.960 So I was there for two and a half years and it was very boring because it was just I was just working with one brand. 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:39.519 Yeah. 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:47.360 Previously, you know, at a consulting company, you've got like a variety of work in different companies, and so I really missed that. 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:54.320 And I love you know, learning about some new thing that that it that I didn't even know existed. 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.159 For example, there's a company that provides puppies for parties. 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.639 Oh corporate parties, yeah. 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:02.480 And the puppies are up for adoption. 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:03.759 So that that's a thing. 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.799 I wouldn't have known about that if I didn't have this this company. 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:07.679 Right. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:09.679 That's fascinating. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.360 Yeah, so yeah, I missed it and I wanted to get back to it. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:27.679 So I I I quit Alexa internet and I started freelancing and yeah, that's my favorite part of my job too, is getting to learn about all these different people and their professions and what they do and why they do it. 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:29.360 It's really fascinating. 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:38.960 It's the most fun part of my job because then I get to learn about all kinds of different things that I, you know, like you, didn't know or didn't know that I wanted to know. 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.240 I work primarily with attorneys and financial planners. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:43.679 So a lot of people think it's boring. 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.200 And I'm like, no, this is fascinating. 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.720 Like, did you know how this law works and what we need to do about it? 00:11:48.960 --> 00:12:02.000 So um, but yeah, and then I also came across a client who um helped people figure out if they wanted to be philanthropic, helped them figure out the best way to do that and how to make the biggest impact with their dollars. 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:04.000 And I was like, is right. 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:06.480 I was like, I did not know that was a job. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.840 Which is funny because my dad talks about that all the time. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:17.200 Like, if he won the lottery and was gonna, you know, try and donate it, how would he figure out how to have the biggest impact? 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:19.759 And we just thought we were doing this as like a thought experiment. 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:24.159 I was like, no, there's someone who actually that's what she does, is answer that question for people. 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.759 That's fascinating. 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:27.200 That is so awesome. 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:31.360 So yeah, I was gonna ask next, like, what's your favorite part about your job? 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:37.360 Is it, you know, getting to work with the different brands and learn different stuff, or is there more to it than that? 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:49.759 Yeah, so you know, I've I've built out this team, and they're a fantastic team, and they do most of the actual client work now. 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:55.759 And I just trust them to do an awesome job and run with it, which is really fantastic. 00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:03.840 So, most of what I do these days is a lot of business development, networking, one-to-one, um, sales and proposals and all that. 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:28.399 And between all of that, like helping the team when they get stuck and working with prospects, what I really, really love is when someone gets stuck or there's like some interesting problem to solve where I have to try to think through like, okay, how can we do this technically, or how can I like automate something to make it happen? 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.320 Like, I love trying to piece together a puzzle like that. 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:33.039 Mm-hmm. 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.519 Yeah, that's a lot of fun for me too. 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:46.240 It's like, especially with those industries that people like, like I said, that financial planner who's like or a philanthropic advisor where it's like, no one's searching for that, which is not quite true. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:52.480 There are a few people out there searching for it, but it's not um, it's not not getting a whole lot of searches. 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:57.759 So it's one of those like, all right, how can we get you in front of people who don't know to look for you? 00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.360 Because you are solving a problem. 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.200 And and a lot of times people are gonna look for this for a solution. 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.440 Um, the question is,

what are they looking for? 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:12.000 If they don't know to search for like this problem or this keyword, what else are they searching? 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.120 So yeah, that's always a lot of fun. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.159 Like you said, figuring out that problem. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:24.480 Um so do you have uh certain industries that you like to work with, or are you all over the place? 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:25.600 You'll work with anyone. 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:27.679 Yeah, we're industry agnostic. 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:34.960 And when looking at all of the clients we do have, I would say the majority of them are in professional services. 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:40.559 They would probably use the word client when they're talking about the people they work with. 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:47.679 Um we also have uh a pretty big chunk of clients in the tech space. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.159 Okay. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.720 That makes sense given where you are. 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:51.679 Yeah. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:52.799 Yeah. 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:58.480 Do you find that you work primarily with people in the Bay Area or are you all over the place at this point? 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:00.879 Yeah, we are we are all over the place. 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:07.519 The majority of them are here just because I've been networking here for 10 years, but we we can work with people anywhere. 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.200 My team is all over the place as well. 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:15.440 I've got one person in England, one in Greece, and then like scattered all over the US. 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:16.320 Nice. 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.840 The joys of the internet and remote work. 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.559 Um, yeah, I have found the same thing. 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:31.279 I can help clients from anywhere, and I have had clients all over the country, but they do end up being mostly here in Chicago just because this is where I do most of my networking. 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.240 So that is that is on me to change that. 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.720 And again, get on some of that remote networking if I want to change that. 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.720 So, my thing about WordPress, and um, I'm not even sure this is true anymore. 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:53.759 Maybe you can help me out with this one, is when I was researching it, WordPress was like the one, the only one you where you really own your content and you really own your website. 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:59.679 Um, the others like Squarespace and and Wix can, yeah, make it really easy for you to build your website. 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.720 The flip side of that is they own all of that. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.240 Can you speak to that? 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:06.399 Yes, you are spot on. 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.159 That is absolutely correct. 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.039 Um, so there are two versions of WordPress. 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:16.960 There is a hosted version of WordPress that is like Wix in Squarespace, where you wouldn't own your content. 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:17.200 Oh. 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:26.799 And then there is the version of WordPress where you're hosting it yourself with your own hosting, like um like hostgater or go daddy or whatever. 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:27.840 Yeah. 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:32.720 And you want to do that, that version of it where you you're hosting it yourself. 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.799 Um you do own everything. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.279 And you can also get under the hood that way too. 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:49.759 So if you wanted to do more with SEO and you hired somebody to do that for you, they could do a lot more with um a self-hosted WordPress site than they could with those other platforms. 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.240 They're not allowed to get under the hood there. 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:53.200 Yeah. 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:54.879 Yeah, that does make it tricky. 00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:00.080 There, and there are some things you can do with SEO um on those other websites, but it is limited. 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:05.759 Um, I don't think I even knew that there were the two different versions of WordPress, um, which I guess makes sense. 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:15.039 Because again, if they're losing clients to people who want who just want it to be easier, um, then yeah, why not why not make it easier and offer hosting? 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.880 But um, yeah, people tend not to know about that. 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.200 Um, the fact that you you don't own your read the fine print people. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:30.000 I I know we all click through without reading the terms of service, but sometimes there's really important information in there. 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.480 So absolutely read all that content. 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.440 Um yeah, it's it's your house, your your online real estate. 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:38.720 You gotta own that. 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:41.759 Awesome. 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:52.799 So what um oh gosh, what's a good what are some of the the things that you see most often that you see people doing that just drives you crazy and you go, no, please stop, don't do that anymore. 00:17:54.319 --> 00:18:10.000 Um, I have to say um needless animations on a website where it like if if you go to the site and then it starts with like a little loading spinner countdown-y kind of thing, I'm like, oh come on. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:11.200 Here we go. 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:12.160 Like, why? 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:12.960 Why? 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:18.480 Like most people are hitting the back button, they don't have the patience for that, especially these days, you know. 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:31.839 Um I'm a fan of animation if it's supporting some other purpose or function, but just animation for the sake of like, oh, it's really cool. 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.519 Like look at what we can do.

00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:36.559 Yeah, that's just unnecessary. 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:37.119 Yeah. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:44.799 What's an example of an animation that you would that you would be in favor of that you would go, okay, yeah, that is in service of something bigger, that keep that. 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:45.440 Yeah. 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:52.880 So sometimes if you're scrolling through the page, like things will like kind of fly in from the side or like they'll kind of appear as you're scrolling. 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:53.519 Yeah. 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:55.519 That that's fine, that's cool. 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:03.680 It's you know, it's it's very light, it's not causing the page to load slower, and it's making it feel dynamic and engaging. 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.440 That is perfectly okay. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:06.960 Yeah. 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.200 And that is something we should touch on is load speed. 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:15.920 Um, because I'm sure that's something I talk about a lot from an SEO perspective. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:20.000 It's not really something I can do much about as the content person. 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:25.279 Um, but it is something I can look at and go, guys, your your load speed is like five seconds. 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:29.599 And I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but that is an eternity in today's day and age. 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.480 So, like you said, people don't have the patience for that. 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:33.599 They're gonna click away. 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:42.640 Um, so can you speak to that about you know load speed and what you're seeing and and how that affects uh the work that you do with your clients? 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:50.079 Yeah, performance is definitely one of those big important check boxes for for when we're building a website. 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:51.920 It can affect your SEO. 00:19:52.079 --> 00:20:02.799 They actually take your your page loading speed into account when they're giving you a score for whether to show your page on mobile or on desktop. 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:12.960 So if you're building a site or even if you like go check your own website right now, there are a whole bunch of tools for checking your website speed. 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:15.440 You know, see see how it's doing. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:21.759 And if it's not doing well, you should definitely ask your developer to like take a look and spend a little time to get it to load faster. 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:23.680 It'll affect your SEO. 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:34.240 But then also if if the page is sitting there taking forever to load, the your prospects are gonna lose interest as well, and they're also gonna click the back button. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.720 So you could be losing business if your site is not performing well. 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:48.160 Yeah, and that's why Google punishes you for the longer load times, is because they have seen that if it takes longer than literally three seconds. 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.960 I know that sounds like nothing and it's not, but again, we live in a world of instant gratification. 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.839 If you don't give me what I want right now, I'm gonna click away and get it somewhere else. 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.559 So yeah, that's another thing I recommend people look at. 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:06.079 If your bounce rate is is really high or if it's getting higher, look at look at your load speed. 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:11.839 Because that's the first thing I would look at as far as you know, it's taking too long to load, I'm gonna click back. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:17.680 Um, find find what I need somewhere else because there is always someone else doing what you do. 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:19.839 So take a look at that. 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:21.519 Awesome. 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.200 Well, Nicole, this was so much fun. 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.119 Thank you so much for for doing this. 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:31.279 Um, before I let you go, tell the good people uh where they can find you if they want to continue this conversation. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.039 Yeah, so our website is smackhappy.com. 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.119 Pretty simple and straightforward. 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:42.480 And I am also on LinkedIn if you want to find me there and connect. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:48.640 And um we have an Instagram account and Facebook, but we hardly touch titles anymore. 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.200 I think if you got a business, you're on LinkedIn. 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.599 That's where you're your stuff these days. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.799 Yeah, I I'm not even sure I have an Instagram or Facebook account for my business anymore. 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.559 I used to, um, but yeah, it just wasn't getting results. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:04.880 Whereas LinkedIn is is where my people are. 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:11.759 So especially if you're serving the professional service providers, we are all over on LinkedIn. 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.519 That's where we're hanging out. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:14.640 Exactly. 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.440 Is there a story behind Smack Happy Design? 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:18.880 How did you come up with that name? 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:27.039 Yeah, so when I was at Alexa Internet, I was thinking I wanted to leave and freelance, and I wanted to come up with a name. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.400 And you know, it's very hard to come up with a name. 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:37.119 The domain name to be available, easy to spell, easy to remember, all the things. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:42.079 And I was thinking about it for like a month and I couldn't come up with anything. 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:48.000 And then one of my coworkers who would often annoy me was annoying me yet once again. 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.119 And I thought, oh, I'm gonna go smack happy on him. 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.079 Oh, maybe that's a good one. 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.680 Love that. 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:56.640 Awesome. 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.960 And here I just went with simple my initials and then what I do. 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:03.680 Well, I mean, that works. 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:05.039 That works. 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.119 It does so awesome, Nicole. 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:09.440 Thank you so much for taking the time uh to chat. 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.039 This was an awesome conversation. 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:17.839 Um, and then for those of you who want to connect with me, if you are not already connected with me, like I said, I'm over on LinkedIn as Allison Verhalen. 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:24.000 AV Writing Services also has its own page over on LinkedIn, so you can follow one or both of us there. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.839 Uh, you can follow me here on YouTube. 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:30.799 If you are not watching this on YouTube, you can check it out on YouTube at Allison Verhalen Content Marketer. 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:36.559 And the website is A V, as in my initials, Allison Verhalen, AV Writing Services.com. 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:38.400 Thanks so much, and thank you again, Nicole. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:39.279 This was so much fun. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:40.640 Thank you for having me.