رونوشت کامل Episode 28: What Hiring Managers Want From Instructional Designers Right Now- Kristen Bourgault on AI Literacy, Core Skills, and the Three Buckets Every ID Needs to Cover

34 00:02:08,265 --> 00:02:10,807 as a full-time faculty for the past 10 years. 35 00:02:10,807 --> 00:02:16,191 As online faculty, Kristen has been a persistent advocate for online learning 36 00:02:16,414 --> 00:02:22,396 and extremely vocal about the need for high quality online learning experiences, 37 00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:23,635 both at the university and 38 00:02:24,019 --> 00:02:26,306 And beyond. Welcome to the show, 39 00:02:26,306 --> 00:02:27,306 Kristen. 40 00:02:27,168 --> 00:02:28,168 Thanks 41 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:28,540 so much. Thanks for having me, 42 00:02:28,514 --> 00:02:29,514 Jason. 43 00:02:30,003 --> 00:02:31,897 Yeah, it's really good to have you here. 44 00:02:31,897 --> 00:02:35,795 ~ let's just jump in with the quick questions, 45 00:02:35,795 --> 00:02:37,188 the lightning round questions. 46 00:02:37,188 --> 00:02:41,577 What's the 30 second elevator pitch about what you do? 47 00:02:42,378 --> 00:02:45,799 So I am currently a full-time faculty in the School of Education 48 00:02:45,799 --> 00:02:50,270 at Quinnipiac University, which is a small private school in Southern Connecticut. 49 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:55,112 And I'm also sitting in the director role for our instructional design programs, 50 00:02:55,112 --> 00:02:56,322 where as you mentioned, Jason, 51 00:02:56,322 --> 00:03:01,534 we have both a 30-credit master's and a ~ nine-credit certificate program. 52 00:03:01,534 --> 00:03:06,125 So ~ I really first and foremost see myself as an instructional designer. 53 00:03:06,125 --> 00:03:09,636 That's really, I still do instructional design work even as faculty. 54 00:03:10,106 --> 00:03:15,134 ~ and I always describe myself as an online ~ educator because all 55 00:03:15,134 --> 00:03:17,698 of my teaching has been in online spaces. 56 00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:20,582 I can do a pop-up workshop in front of a group if I have to, 57 00:03:20,582 --> 00:03:22,996 but really my passion is online education. 58 00:03:23,746 --> 00:03:25,290 You may have just answered my next question, 59 00:03:25,290 --> 00:03:28,308 but what do you what do you love the most about your work? 60 00:03:28,460 --> 00:03:31,933 I think about the instructional design work ~ and the teaching, 61 00:03:31,933 --> 00:03:34,406 the thing that I love the most is it's just constantly changing. 62 00:03:34,406 --> 00:03:37,278 I couldn't do something that was the same every single day. 63 00:03:37,278 --> 00:03:39,981 ~ this field just continues to grow, 64 00:03:39,981 --> 00:03:43,264 the technology changes, the approaches that we use change. 65 00:03:43,264 --> 00:03:45,636 ~ the as you talked about, the threats, 66 00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:47,287 I know we'll get into the threats change. 67 00:03:47,287 --> 00:03:50,040 ~ and so my work is different every single day, 68 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,542 even if I'm teaching, you know, 69 00:03:51,542 --> 00:03:54,104 the same courses I've been teaching for the past several years. 70 00:03:54,854 --> 00:03:59,338 And when you're totally dialed in at work, 71 00:03:59,338 --> 00:04:02,851 what are the kinds of things you're most likely to be doing? 72 00:04:03,485 --> 00:04:05,165 So I think and the kid, the kid, 73 00:04:05,165 --> 00:04:06,176 you gotta update your language, 74 00:04:06,176 --> 00:04:08,546 Jason, because the kids would say you're locked in when you're locked. 75 00:04:08,546 --> 00:04:12,297 Yeah, when I'm locked in. ~ yeah, 76 00:04:08,892 --> 00:04:10,824 Locked in. All right. When you're locked in. 77 00:04:10,824 --> 00:04:12,717 All right. Thank thank you for the note. 78 00:04:12,297 --> 00:04:15,188 mo make a note. ~ when I'm locked in 79 00:04:12,717 --> 00:04:13,717 Appreciate it. 80 00:04:15,188 --> 00:04:17,689 at work, it's really developing new courses. 81 00:04:17,689 --> 00:04:20,739 I mean, that's that's where I can just lose myself. 82 00:04:20,739 --> 00:04:22,470 I go to bed sleeping about it, 83 00:04:22,470 --> 00:04:25,650 I ~ thinking about it, I get up and that's the first thing that I want to 84 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:27,538 do is work on new course development, 85 00:04:27,538 --> 00:04:31,693 just researching topics, designing learning activities for my students. 86 00:04:31,693 --> 00:04:32,693 ~ 87 00:04:32,825 --> 00:04:35,297 And so I think that's really the most rich intellectual work. 88 00:04:35,297 --> 00:04:39,702 But the other piece is that I absolutely love what will always love is give 89 00:04:39,702 --> 00:04:44,526 me a like poorly designed Canvas or Blackboard course and let me get 90 00:04:44,526 --> 00:04:48,310 in there and make the formatting consistent and add some icons and dress 91 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:49,842 it up and put things in bullets. 92 00:04:49,842 --> 00:04:53,365 And I also could do that probably for hours and miss a meal, 93 00:04:53,365 --> 00:04:57,189 ~ just cleaning up someone's bad canvas course. 94 00:04:57,939 --> 00:05:03,884 Great. ~ you have said before that you got going your first 95 00:05:03,884 --> 00:05:07,568 job doing this kind of work. You were right out of school. 96 00:05:07,568 --> 00:05:11,782 In fact, you were still at the school ~ that you had gone to, 97 00:05:11,782 --> 00:05:13,563 and then you started doing this work. 98 00:05:13,563 --> 00:05:15,905 ~ so it was really at the beginning, 99 00:05:15,905 --> 00:05:17,777 beginning, beginning of your career that you started. 100 00:05:17,777 --> 00:05:20,990 So I'm curious if you could turn back the clock, 101 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:23,993 what advice would you give to? 102 00:05:24,701 --> 00:05:28,114 that person who is doing her first instructional design work, 103 00:05:28,114 --> 00:05:30,725 ~ what advice would you give her? 104 00:05:31,015 --> 00:05:34,316 Yeah, I I think at the time it really had no to probably like you said, 105 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,036 you were doing it before you knew what it was. 106 00:05:36,036 --> 00:05:38,677 So I had no clue that

this was a thing. 107 00:05:38,677 --> 00:05:42,688 I was just trying to help faculty put content online. 108 00:05:42,688 --> 00:05:46,589 ~ so if I had to go back, I mean I'd say just just stay the course, 109 00:05:46,589 --> 00:05:51,250 man. Like this is a field. This there's a whole deep body of research and history. 110 00:05:51,250 --> 00:05:54,251 ~ and there's gonna be work. This isn't going away. 111 00:05:54,251 --> 00:05:57,392 This is actually you're on the cutting edge of something that's gonna keep evolving. 112 00:05:58,142 --> 00:06:00,785 And this is a question, it could be about work, 113 00:06:00,785 --> 00:06:02,727 but it could just be about life, 114 00:06:02,727 --> 00:06:05,820 anything outside of work. What is a skill you're trying to pick up right now? 115 00:06:06,461 --> 00:06:09,814 Yeah, so I I mean I definitely am always trying to upscale for work, 116 00:06:09,814 --> 00:06:12,976 but I'm less interested in in that these days. 117 00:06:12,976 --> 00:06:16,649 I'm definitely less interested in spending time on the computer. 118 00:06:16,649 --> 00:06:20,523 So ~ mostly what I'm trying to upskill is ways to get off the computer. 119 00:06:20,523 --> 00:06:25,146 ~ so my my like pet hobby this summer has been foraging and you know, 120 00:06:25,146 --> 00:06:27,108 finding things in my yard. Yeah, 121 00:06:26,048 --> 00:06:27,048 wow. 122 00:06:27,108 --> 00:06:31,061 finding things in my yard that are safe to eat and finding ways to prepare them 123 00:06:31,061 --> 00:06:33,824 and make my family ~ experiment and eat them. 124 00:06:33,824 --> 00:06:35,495 So anything that gets me outside. 125 00:06:35,973 --> 00:06:39,323 And just away from the computer is really kind of where I wanna be right now. 126 00:06:40,073 --> 00:06:41,848 You have a very different yard than I do, 127 00:06:41,848 --> 00:06:42,848 I think. 128 00:06:42,940 --> 00:06:45,655 you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. 129 00:06:45,655 --> 00:06:47,728 There may be some things out there that you can eat. 130 00:06:48,478 --> 00:06:49,561 I'm gonna take your word for it. 131 00:06:49,561 --> 00:06:55,727 I'm I would end up absolutely killing myself if I tried to eat something. 132 00:06:51,427 --> 00:06:55,285 Yeah, b yeah. Don't don't just go rogue and try to eat things. 133 00:06:55,285 --> 00:06:56,285 No. No. 134 00:06:55,727 --> 00:06:56,727 No. 135 00:06:56,337 --> 00:06:57,359 Consult the internet. 136 00:06:58,109 --> 00:07:01,841 my. All right. You came into this work as a student worker. 137 00:07:01,841 --> 00:07:02,971 I mentioned this a minute ago. 138 00:07:02,971 --> 00:07:07,993 You had ~ graduated ~ from Simmons College. 139 00:07:07,993 --> 00:07:09,064 It was a college 140 00:07:08,630 --> 00:07:09,630 Yes. 141 00:07:09,064 --> 00:07:11,415 at the time. It's now you it's now university. 142 00:07:11,415 --> 00:07:17,237 And your work was you said it was making photocopies, 143 00:07:17,237 --> 00:07:22,380 editing PowerPoints. And then at one point you got asked to help 144 00:07:22,380 --> 00:07:24,781 put some courses together in WebCT. 145 00:07:24,781 --> 00:07:25,781 And for those 146 00:07:25,826 --> 00:07:27,987 People who do not know what Web CT is, 147 00:07:27,987 --> 00:07:30,809 a learning manage was a learning management system. 148 00:07:30,809 --> 00:07:33,440 It was absorbed by back by Blackboard at some point. 149 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,031 It was huge at the time. It was one of just a couple of them. 150 00:07:36,031 --> 00:07:39,913 anyway, you already had graphic design skills, 151 00:07:39,913 --> 00:07:43,155 you had web design skills, you had things that you were bringing to the table. 152 00:07:43,155 --> 00:07:49,678 I'm kind of curious what was it about your early work 153 00:07:50,799 --> 00:07:52,360 as an instructional designer, you know, 154 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,751 putting these courses online that 155 00:07:54,891 --> 00:07:55,891 Got you hooked. 156 00:07:56,768 --> 00:07:59,939 Yeah, so I kind of like you had mentioned earlier about yourself, 157 00:07:59,939 --> 00:08:02,030 I was vaguely interested in teaching. 158 00:08:02,030 --> 00:08:03,380 ~ I'm not I'm 159 00:08:02,956 --> 00:08:03,956 Mm-hmm. 160 00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:06,601 very introverted. I'm not a a stand in front of a classroom person. 161 00:08:06,601 --> 00:08:10,792 So I had kind of ruled out education as like a field. 162 00:08:10,792 --> 00:08:13,323 ~ and I was doing a lot of graphic design, 163 00:08:13,323 --> 00:08:17,294 web design work and as an undergraduate and piecing that together. 164 00:08:17,294 --> 00:08:20,265 And so as a student worker, as I was making photocopies, 165 00:08:20,265 --> 00:08:22,476 the faculty were asking me, Can you help me with my email? 166 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:23,476 Can you 167 00:08:23,318 --> 00:08:25,359 put some of these materials online. 168 00:08:25,359 --> 00:08:26,970 Can you format these PowerPoints? 169 00:08:26,970 --> 00:08:31,714 and so up until that point, I I didn't know what I was gonna do, 170 00:08:31,714 --> 00:08:34,045 but I had all these web design, 171 00:08:34,045 --> 00:08:37,718 graphic design skills and I was using them to build like websites that were 172 00:08:37,978 --> 00:08:43,021 marketing or businesses. And and really this was sort of at the beginning of that, 173 00:08:43,021 --> 00:08:44,992 the it wasn't the beginning of the internet, 174 00:08:44,992 --> 00:08:46,784 but when it was really picking up steam. 175 00:08:47,302 --> 00:08:49,473 ~ with becoming like e-commerce. 176 00:08:49,473 --> 00:08:53,034 And so it seemed to me like that I would have to be selling things if I you know, 177 00:08:53,034 --> 00:08:55,495 putting together websites to sell things. 178 00:08:55,495 --> 00:08:57,356 And I know you run a business, 179 00:08:57,356 --> 00:09:00,567 but for me the business is like the least interesting thing that 180 00:09:00,567 --> 00:09:05,058 I could

possibly do. ~ I didn't want to be doing that. 181 00:09:05,058 --> 00:09:08,540 I was, you know, building like websites for a caterer and putting up prices 182 00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:09,540 and just was so boring. 183 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:14,003 So when I realized that I could use all of these skills and build websites 184 00:09:14,123 --> 00:09:18,396 and ~ engage with technology and do graphic design and write copy 185 00:09:18,396 --> 00:09:23,990 for learning purposes, it was sort of like just eye-opening to me ~ that 186 00:09:23,990 --> 00:09:27,152 I could use all those skills in service of teaching and learning. 187 00:09:27,152 --> 00:09:31,725 ~ and that I somehow could weasel my way into being an educator without having 188 00:09:31,725 --> 00:09:35,508 to be a teacher, ~ without having to command a classroom. 189 00:09:35,508 --> 00:09:37,999 And so that's really what hooked it for me. 190 00:09:37,999 --> 00:09:38,999 ~ 191 00:09:39,093 --> 00:09:42,286 The the program I worked for was a doctorate, 192 00:09:42,286 --> 00:09:45,188 the bridge doctorate into physical therapy for people who 193 00:09:45,188 --> 00:09:47,039 are practicing physical therapists. 194 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:50,092 They had busy careers and they needed to pick up some of 195 00:09:50,092 --> 00:09:54,545 the more administrative skills to get their doctorate so that they could stay 196 00:09:54,766 --> 00:09:56,887 practicing in the field and move up in the field. 197 00:09:56,887 --> 00:10:01,351 And the other thing that really drew me to it was that I was learning so much. 198 00:10:01,351 --> 00:10:04,393 The courses that I was developing were about negotiation, 199 00:10:04,393 --> 00:10:07,666 cultural competence. ~ and so I realized that. 200 00:10:07,838 --> 00:10:08,838 As 201 00:10:08,018 --> 00:10:10,681 I was building these websites for the faculty, 202 00:10:10,681 --> 00:10:12,673 I was learning the content, you know, 203 00:10:12,673 --> 00:10:14,545 just picking up different things. 204 00:10:14,545 --> 00:10:15,997 And so to me it was like, wow, 205 00:10:15,997 --> 00:10:20,281 this is a place where so many of my interests meet and gets me into 206 00:10:20,281 --> 00:10:22,784 the field of education with skills that I already have. 207 00:10:23,534 --> 00:10:25,515 Actually, I'm kind of curious about those skills. 208 00:10:25,515 --> 00:10:28,477 You came in with those skills. 209 00:10:28,477 --> 00:10:33,481 They were clearly important in terms of getting you getting you started. 210 00:10:33,481 --> 00:10:38,394 Do you feel like there were some attitudes 211 00:10:38,394 --> 00:10:44,588 or skills or behaviors or anything that you had coming into this career that 212 00:10:44,588 --> 00:10:49,331 you have, if you look back, that have actually continued to serve 213 00:10:49,331 --> 00:10:51,553 you over the course of your career? 214 00:10:51,553 --> 00:10:53,024 And what are those? 215 00:10:53,175 --> 00:10:58,588 Yeah, I think a lot of people sort of shrug off like web design and HTML 216 00:10:58,588 --> 00:11:02,430 and graphic design as being instructional design skills and they think more about 217 00:11:02,730 --> 00:11:07,253 using the technology and clicking the buttons or the pedagogical approaches 218 00:11:07,253 --> 00:11:11,916 and and the ~ needs analysis and evaluation pieces of instructional design. 219 00:11:11,916 --> 00:11:17,349 For me, I feel that having the visual design skills coming in really was helpful. 220 00:11:17,349 --> 00:11:21,401 And that's kind of what gave me a leg up as I was able to design like ~ 221 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:25,463 make the online courses look good in a way that I think is instantly appealing like 222 00:11:25,463 --> 00:11:28,616 to the faculty and the administrators who were looking for this program 223 00:11:29,137 --> 00:11:32,810 and brought them on board that this isn't just going to be like flat text pasted 224 00:11:32,810 --> 00:11:36,664 up into Web CT, but to give it a little bit of visual interest. 225 00:11:36,664 --> 00:11:41,618 ~ I really think it helped make my case for why I was right for that role 226 00:11:41,618 --> 00:11:44,751 and and it helps you to build a portfolio that looks good. 227 00:11:44,751 --> 00:11:46,483 ~ and I think that 228 00:11:46,945 --> 00:11:48,848 Having those skills is really a huge asset. 229 00:11:48,848 --> 00:11:50,350 I don't think you absolutely need them. 230 00:11:50,350 --> 00:11:53,434 I think there's lots of roles for instructional designers that don't require 231 00:11:53,434 --> 00:11:55,437 the graphic design and visual design skills, 232 00:11:55,437 --> 00:11:58,451 but I think it's really helpful if you have them. 233 00:11:58,451 --> 00:12:03,288 And I think it often can help you sell yourself ~ into positions if you're able 234 00:12:03,288 --> 00:12:04,288 to showcase those. 235 00:12:05,486 --> 00:12:08,146 And the reason that I asked the question is because ~ 236 00:12:08,896 --> 00:12:14,014 for people who do not understand our our work and aren't thinking hard about it, 237 00:12:14,014 --> 00:12:19,903 ~ the assumption with AI is that you can like push a button and it pops 238 00:12:20,104 --> 00:12:23,920 a course out. And I I think 239 00:12:24,670 --> 00:12:30,232 The reality is n not only are there skills that are important ~ that 240 00:12:30,312 --> 00:12:32,273 you know most designers should have, 241 00:12:32,273 --> 00:12:34,134 instructional designers should have, 242 00:12:34,134 --> 00:12:39,236 that each of us comes with our own unique background and stuff. 243 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:41,837 That stuff is actually important to the work that we do. 244 00:12:41,837 --> 00:12:47,619 It's not just about ~ being able to do a single kind of task, 245 00:12:47,619 --> 00:12:53,332 that there are things that that we pick up and grow across our careers that 246 00:12:53,332 --> 00:12:54,342 are really important. 247 00:12:54,548 --> 00:12:58,099

to our success and our ability to do our work well. 248 00:12:58,099 --> 00:13:00,740 And some of those are quite durable. 249 00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:04,361 So those things that you were using even before you started doing this work, 250 00:13:04,361 --> 00:13:07,321 you're still, you still find value in them. 251 00:13:07,321 --> 00:13:11,383 So it's just, I think worth, worth pointing out that, 252 00:13:11,383 --> 00:13:18,064 ~ that that the world is not wipe is not wiping away the importance of these skills. 253 00:13:18,064 --> 00:13:21,345 So I'm curious to hear actually about your program, 254 00:13:21,345 --> 00:13:23,572 this program that you are the director there. 255 00:13:23,572 --> 00:13:24,572 ~ 256 00:13:24,197 --> 00:13:27,279 at Quinnipiac University. ~ tell me, 257 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:29,670 I'm curious who comes to your program. 258 00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:32,491 What does the program itself look like? 259 00:13:32,491 --> 00:13:36,033 What kinds of work ~ do your graduates go on to do? 260 00:13:36,033 --> 00:13:38,184 And what's your role in it every day? 261 00:13:38,761 --> 00:13:40,992 Sure. So our program at Quinnipiac, 262 00:13:40,992 --> 00:13:43,333 as they said, is a 30 credit, 10 course, 263 00:13:43,333 --> 00:13:49,427 30 credit master's program. ~ And we have a set of foundational courses that 264 00:13:49,427 --> 00:13:53,369 we have students take, which really focus on the instructional design process, 265 00:13:53,369 --> 00:13:55,110 learning about, you know, ADI, 266 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:58,111 but other processes that you can use to create instruction. 267 00:13:58,111 --> 00:14:02,504 ~ Then some courses on cognitive science so that you understand 268 00:14:02,504 --> 00:14:06,916 the science behind how we learn and particularly how we learn with multimedia 269 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:08,217 and technology. 270 00:14:08,699 --> 00:14:12,532 And then we have a course on that kind of touches on graphic design 271 00:14:12,532 --> 00:14:17,225 and multimedia and a course on ~ collaboration. 272 00:14:17,225 --> 00:14:20,087 So more about like working as an instructional designer, 273 00:14:20,087 --> 00:14:22,258 working remotely and collaborating with others. 274 00:14:22,290 --> 00:14:23,290 Mm. 275 00:14:22,899 --> 00:14:25,140 We then have some electives you can choose from, 276 00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:27,932 which go into the different technologies really. 277 00:14:27,932 --> 00:14:29,263 They're more technology focused. 278 00:14:29,263 --> 00:14:30,844 So picking up kind of tech skills, 279 00:14:30,844 --> 00:14:33,546 ~ web design, video production, 280 00:14:33,546 --> 00:14:37,619 online learning, which really focuses on the learning management system. 281 00:14:38,161 --> 00:14:42,525 Accept we have a course on accessibility and accessible tech ~ and a course 282 00:14:42,525 --> 00:14:47,499 on new technology. And then the final experience is either a capstone where you're 283 00:14:47,499 --> 00:14:52,074 going to do one big project throughout the semester or ~ internships. 284 00:14:52,074 --> 00:14:53,795 So we have the option for students. 285 00:14:53,795 --> 00:14:58,299 ~ who comes into our program, that's kind of one of the biggest challenges 286 00:14:58,299 --> 00:15:02,163 and also one I think of the benefits of our particular program is that 287 00:15:02,163 --> 00:15:04,755 we have everybody. So we have 288 00:15:04,862 --> 00:15:05,862 Hm. 289 00:15:05,085 --> 00:15:06,085 K-12 290 00:15:05,545 --> 00:15:09,565 teachers coming in who want to upskill and use tech in the classroom or 291 00:15:09,628 --> 00:15:13,811 who want to now pivot out of K-12 and into instructional design careers. 292 00:15:13,811 --> 00:15:17,184 ~ we have people, a lot of people working in higher ed. 293 00:15:17,184 --> 00:15:20,997 We have a lot of people from Quinapiac taking my courses while they're, 294 00:15:20,997 --> 00:15:22,348 you know, while they're working, 295 00:15:22,348 --> 00:15:23,659 because it just sort of, like you said, 296 00:15:23,659 --> 00:15:25,860 a lot of the skills do transfer to different, 297 00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:30,894 all different kinds of work. but we also have other people from universities, 298 00:15:30,894 --> 00:15:32,065 faculty, ~ 299 00:15:32,532 --> 00:15:36,463 People in instructional design roles or tech roles that are interested in the field. 300 00:15:36,463 --> 00:15:39,484 And then we also have like the corporate audience. 301 00:15:39,484 --> 00:15:43,025 So we have all people who are either in corporate instructional design jobs 302 00:15:43,025 --> 00:15:47,116 or looking to level up a lot of insurance because we're in Connecticut. 303 00:15:47,116 --> 00:15:49,507 That's a big market here. And then 304 00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:49,970 Mm-hmm. 305 00:15:49,507 --> 00:15:53,768 the fourth bucket has been really increasing over the past several year years 306 00:15:53,768 --> 00:15:56,589 is healthcare. So people coming from healthcare backgrounds. 307 00:15:57,155 --> 00:16:01,887 ~ who are interested in either patient education or training other people 308 00:16:01,887 --> 00:16:03,966 in their in their disciplines. 309 00:16:03,966 --> 00:16:06,448 Konipiac has a big health studies, 310 00:16:06,448 --> 00:16:08,609 nursing, and med school program. 311 00:16:08,609 --> 00:16:10,150 So we have a lot of those students, 312 00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:14,561 but we've also had students just independently come into the program from those 313 00:16:14,561 --> 00:16:18,943 disciplines. so a couple big things about our program, 314 00:16:18,943 --> 00:16:19,943 we're really learner. 315 00:16:20,007 --> 00:16:24,049 Learner focus, that's really my lens of instructional design is you have 316 00:16:24,049 --> 00:16:27,023 to get to know your learners. You are designing for your learners. 317 00:16:27,023 --> 00:16:31,356 ~ you know, we do a lot of like learner personas and empathy to understand 318

00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,399 who those learners are and what they need and how we can best reach them. 319 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:40,604 ~ and we also really couple the theory and practice because I know that just, 320 00:16:40,604 --> 00:16:44,257 you know, I kind of have always straddled the staff faculty role. 321 00:16:44,257 --> 00:16:46,919 I don't have a PhD, I don't have a research background, 322 00:16:46,919 --> 00:16:49,481 so I'm more of a practical hands-on person. 323 00:16:50,009 --> 00:16:55,511 ~ and so I know that just sitting through 10 courses worth of theory isn't is great. 324 00:16:55,511 --> 00:16:57,111 That's great, you know a lot about it. 325 00:16:57,111 --> 00:17:00,792 But if you can't apply it, it's just not going to take you very far 326 00:17:01,790 --> 00:17:02,790 Mm-hmm. 327 00:17:02,213 --> 00:17:05,134 in your career. So we do a lot of the theory, 328 00:17:05,134 --> 00:17:06,774 you know the theory, but then we apply it. 329 00:17:06,774 --> 00:17:10,994 Every single course has hands-on ~ projects that you're doing that 330 00:17:10,994 --> 00:17:15,726 are going to often we have students draw their own projects from like their work 331 00:17:15,726 --> 00:17:16,726 life or 332 00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:19,351 organizations that they volunteer with and that type of thing 333 00:17:19,351 --> 00:17:23,325 to create actual instructional design projects that they can then highlight 334 00:17:23,325 --> 00:17:25,235 in a portfolio at the end of the program. 335 00:17:25,235 --> 00:17:29,638 ~ I think that's basically that's the program. 336 00:17:29,638 --> 00:17:31,981 You want me to talk a little bit about my role? 337 00:17:31,981 --> 00:17:33,902 Was that the okay? 338 00:17:33,054 --> 00:17:34,279 Sure. Yes, please. 339 00:17:34,543 --> 00:17:37,085 So ~ as as you had mentioned earlier, 340 00:17:37,085 --> 00:17:41,708 I I developed a program co-developed 12 years ago with ~ another faculty member, 341 00:17:41,708 --> 00:17:43,229 her name is Dr. Ruth Schwartz. 342 00:17:43,709 --> 00:17:45,781 She actually founded the program and brought me on. 343 00:17:45,781 --> 00:17:49,974 I'm very grateful to her and for her leadership over the past 12, 344 00:17:49,974 --> 00:17:54,017 I guess, years. ~ She's phased out into like a partial retirement. 345 00:17:54,017 --> 00:17:55,799 So she's currently teaching in the program, 346 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:58,501 but she stepped down from the director role and I've stepped in. 347 00:17:58,501 --> 00:18:03,645 ~ So in that piece of it, ~ in higher education right now, 348 00:18:03,645 --> 00:18:05,987 even as faculty, you're asked to do a lot. 349 00:18:05,987 --> 00:18:09,380 So I teach a 332 load, 350 00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:11,171 which is three courses in the fall, 351 00:18:11,171 --> 00:18:13,053 three in the spring, two in the summer. 352 00:18:13,821 --> 00:18:18,512 which is a pretty heavy role load to also manage ~ the program because 353 00:18:18,512 --> 00:18:21,713 I am involved with marketing and how to best get the word out, 354 00:18:21,713 --> 00:18:27,475 ~ admissions and interviewing incoming students and open house events 355 00:18:27,475 --> 00:18:30,306 and those types of things, all the way through advising, 356 00:18:30,306 --> 00:18:32,437 you know, ca a lot of counseling with students. 357 00:18:32,437 --> 00:18:34,807 So we have adult students, but they have lots of challenges, 358 00:18:34,807 --> 00:18:37,858 you know, as adults in their lives with managing coursework. 359 00:18:37,858 --> 00:18:40,649 So we do a lot of that, all the way through planning. 360 00:18:41,031 --> 00:18:43,287 You know, online graduation and all of that. 361 00:18:43,287 --> 00:18:46,667 So just really soup to nuts the whole everything that you could do 362 00:18:46,667 --> 00:18:49,585 in an academic program. ~ I have my hands in. 363 00:18:50,335 --> 00:18:54,177 I mentioned to this earlier. ~ this is a big topic. 364 00:18:54,177 --> 00:18:57,898 You said that you've been fighting for the legitimacy of online learning 365 00:18:57,898 --> 00:19:00,400 for twenty-five years, the full span of your career. 366 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:06,833 What what has your experience been like this over twenty twenty-five years? 367 00:19:06,833 --> 00:19:07,833 Say more about that. 368 00:19:08,351 --> 00:19:09,351 So 369 00:19:08,481 --> 00:19:11,512 this this might be like a politically incorrect way to frame this, 370 00:19:11,512 --> 00:19:16,673 but I've always felt like we're sort of the the ugly stepchildren of the university. 371 00:19:16,673 --> 00:19:19,794 And I've worked at, I think, five or six universities at this point. 372 00:19:19,794 --> 00:19:23,335 it's like the last thing people think about. 373 00:19:23,335 --> 00:19:28,976 It is ~ online education is left out of the conversations at the university level. 374 00:19:28,976 --> 00:19:31,397 I attend all our faculty senate meetings at Quinnipiac, 375 00:19:31,397 --> 00:19:34,047 and we have a long history at Quinnipiac of online education. 376 00:19:34,047 --> 00:19:36,898 We've been doing it for a really long time and still. 377 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:39,407 a lot of the conversations just fail to, 378 00:19:39,407 --> 00:19:43,869 you know, acknowledge that there are a whole group of us who are online faculty 379 00:19:44,110 --> 00:19:45,850 who are not on campus every day. 380 00:19:45,850 --> 00:19:50,663 ~ and more importantly, that we have an entire student body that does 381 00:19:50,663 --> 00:19:53,134 not ever see campus. You know, 382 00:19:53,134 --> 00:19:57,067 ~ my one of the biggest joys of my job is gradu when I attend graduation 383 00:19:57,067 --> 00:20:00,248 and my students come on campus and that is their first time meeting me 384 00:20:00,248 --> 00:20:01,248 and that is their first time 385 00:20:00,743 --> 00:20:01,743 Mm. 386 00:20:01,189 --> 00:20:04,030 on campus. ~ and they're kind of like, 387 00:20:04,030 -->

00:20:07,002 wow, this place is so cool. I you know maybe I should have come 388 00:20:07,442 --> 00:20:09,203 visited in the past two years. 389 00:20:09,203 --> 00:20:11,755 ~ so I think it's just I 390 00:20:10,985 --> 00:20:11,985 Mm-hmm. 391 00:20:11,755 --> 00:20:16,137 think we could do more to make those people feel included and connected 392 00:20:16,137 --> 00:20:20,570 to our campus. And it's just it's not it's not being done. 393 00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:23,091 It's it never feels like it's being done enough. 394 00:20:23,091 --> 00:20:26,153 ~ in my experience, 395 00:20:26,153 --> 00:20:29,615 I I spent the first half of my career supporting online faculty 396 00:20:30,235 --> 00:20:34,538 as an instructional designer and they're often under resourced. 397 00:20:34,866 --> 00:20:38,340 The work is not understood, which I know is is across the board. 398 00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:40,332 Instructional design work is not understood. 399 00:20:40,332 --> 00:20:44,236 ~ people don't know what it takes to teach online. 400 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:49,321 It's a 24-7 job to teach online in a graduate program. 401 00:20:49,321 --> 00:20:53,305 and we just don't get the resources. 402 00:20:53,305 --> 00:20:55,407 We don't get the technology resources. 403 00:20:55,407 --> 00:20:57,870 We it's it's seen as like this. 404 00:20:58,650 --> 00:21:03,413 easily scalable model where we could just infinitely fill our classes with students 405 00:21:03,413 --> 00:21:06,555 and that's just not the case if we want to do it in a quality way. 406 00:21:06,555 --> 00:21:11,619 And I just don't think it's worth doing if you're if you're not gonna do it 407 00:21:11,959 --> 00:21:15,060 in a way that results in student learning at the end of the day. 408 00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:18,657 So yeah, I mean I could talk for hours about this. 409 00:21:18,657 --> 00:21:22,106 I don't know if you have a specific yeah. 410 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,480 I do. I mean, 411 00:21:22,211 --> 00:21:26,825 I'm I I'd love for you to make the case for online online education then. 412 00:21:26,825 --> 00:21:32,031 what do we know about how effective online education 413 00:21:32,031 --> 00:21:33,633 is versus traditional education? 414 00:21:33,633 --> 00:21:34,934 yeah. 415 00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:36,137 Yes. So this is where my 416 00:21:36,137 --> 00:21:40,811 lack of research background ~ is gonna fail me because I I and I could have looked 417 00:21:40,811 --> 00:21:43,854 before we had this conversation to support my case. 418 00:21:43,854 --> 00:21:48,788 I can't give you numbers. I can't give you ~ evidence or statistics about online 419 00:21:48,788 --> 00:21:52,401 education being ~ I I don't think it's better. 420 00:21:52,401 --> 00:21:55,813 I think it it can be as good. And in in a lot of cases, 421 00:21:55,813 --> 00:22:00,517 I think it is better. And all of that evidence that I have is just from talking 422 00:22:00,517 --> 00:22:03,830 to people. I know a lot of people who have extremely successful careers having 423 00:22:04,348 --> 00:22:09,472 Earn their degrees online. ~ I don't think online education is a model 424 00:22:09,472 --> 00:22:12,654 for for everything. I don't think everything should be online. 425 00:22:12,654 --> 00:22:17,728 I really see value in K-12 students being together in public education settings 426 00:22:17,728 --> 00:22:19,909 for a multitude of reasons physically. 427 00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:25,923 ~ I think that there's huge value in sending our 17 to 22 year olds 428 00:22:25,923 --> 00:22:30,777 off to college campuses to try to get along in the world and learn things about 429 00:22:31,157 --> 00:22:32,157 who they want to be. 430 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:33,590 ~ 431 00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:36,894 but I think where online education really shines is in the graduate space. 432 00:22:36,894 --> 00:22:40,578 I think that the reality is that everybody's working, 433 00:22:40,578 --> 00:22:43,471 even those 18-year-olds, some of those 16-year-olds are working. 434 00:22:43,471 --> 00:22:48,896 And we need ways to help those people get educated and 435 00:22:48,896 --> 00:22:53,151 the flexibility of online learning where you can really get your work done 436 00:22:53,412 --> 00:22:55,330 any time of day. ~ 437 00:22:55,868 --> 00:22:58,349 You know, my courses still stick to a strict schedule. 438 00:22:58,349 --> 00:23:00,529 We're on a weekly schedule. They have deadlines, 439 00:23:00,529 --> 00:23:04,210 but there's so much flexibility in when they get that work done, 440 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:05,701 where they get that work done. 441 00:23:05,701 --> 00:23:09,302 ~ and so I think it's just in terms of accessibility, 442 00:23:09,302 --> 00:23:11,583 making education accessible for more people. 443 00:23:11,583 --> 00:23:15,624 I think it's it's a really important model that shouldn't be overlooked. 444 00:23:15,624 --> 00:23:20,945 In terms of efficiency, ~ I can really speak to my own program. 445 00:23:20,945 --> 00:23:23,496 I mean, my my graduates go on to do great things. 446 00:23:23,817 --> 00:23:26,489 They get jobs, they are in all kinds of roles, 447 00:23:26,489 --> 00:23:28,181 they move up in their organizations. 448 00:23:28,181 --> 00:23:32,174 And so I know that they're getting what they need out of the program. 449 00:23:32,174 --> 00:23:35,527 ~ you know, we did a survey. Here's my one statistic. 450 00:23:35,527 --> 00:23:39,630 I can I can say we recently did a survey of the graduates over the past three years, 451 00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:41,852 and they were a hundred percent either, 452 00:23:41,852 --> 00:23:45,525 you know, satisfied or extremely satisfied with their education. 453 00:23:45,525 --> 00:23:51,880 ~ so I think if we invest in 454 00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:56,392 teaching people how to do it well if we invest in the faculty and if we do more, 455 00:23:56,392 --> 00:24:00,684 particularly in higher ed, to create a community for our online

learners. 456 00:24:00,684 --> 00:24:04,635 I think this is a great opportunity to reach more people. 457 00:24:04,635 --> 00:24:07,406 And as we're all looking at enrollment challenges, 458 00:24:07,406 --> 00:24:11,588 it's it's from a business perspective a great opportunity to stay afloat. 459 00:24:12,338 --> 00:24:13,679 Turning to the technology a little bit, 460 00:24:13,679 --> 00:24:16,370 you've said that online learning is actually not about the technology. 461 00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:18,561 It's about people and relationships. 462 00:24:18,561 --> 00:24:21,963 And I I don't think I could agree any more than 100%. 463 00:24:21,963 --> 00:24:23,804 So I will say that I agree a hundred percent. 464 00:24:23,804 --> 00:24:29,548 In your work, ~ can you talk about 465 00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:34,631 how you keep people and relationships at the center when technology 466 00:24:34,631 --> 00:24:38,753 is both the medium, but I think it's also for people who don't know 467 00:24:38,753 --> 00:24:40,454 as much about this work. 468 00:24:40,944 --> 00:24:42,785 It is the thing that they tend to latch on to. 469 00:24:42,785 --> 00:24:45,757 It's the thing that they tend to think it that it is all about. 470 00:24:45,757 --> 00:24:51,180 But I think for folks that have been students ~ in a program like yours 471 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:53,921 or have done the work of instructional design, 472 00:24:53,921 --> 00:24:56,303 we know that technology is necessary, 473 00:24:56,303 --> 00:25:03,117 but it is not the ballgame. I'm curious if you could just talk 474 00:25:03,117 --> 00:25:08,560 about how do you design the human element into what you do. 475 00:25:09,212 --> 00:25:12,534 Yeah, I think I think that is the biggest misconception that it's just 476 00:25:12,534 --> 00:25:17,346 all about the technology. ~ I think it's funny because if we said like teaching 477 00:25:17,346 --> 00:25:19,277 in a classroom is all about relationships, 478 00:25:19,277 --> 00:25:21,048 people would be like, Yes, absolutely. 479 00:25:21,048 --> 00:25:25,290 No one would say, No, it's about the classroom building or it's about the chairs. 480 00:25:25,290 --> 00:25:28,432 Like those are just those are just the the vehicles. 481 00:25:27,101 --> 00:25:29,143 Yeah, yeah, yeah. ~ 482 00:25:28,432 --> 00:25:29,432 ~ 483 00:25:29,833 --> 00:25:31,934 so yeah, I think in my own teaching, 484 00:25:31,934 --> 00:25:34,636 those human relationships are what's absolutely most important. 485 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:36,517 I 486 00:25:36,953 --> 00:25:39,334 really take the time to get to know each of my students. 487 00:25:39,334 --> 00:25:42,615 I have the luxury of having them over multiple courses. 488 00:25:42,615 --> 00:25:45,837 I also have the luxury of 14 week semesters. 489 00:25:45,837 --> 00:25:47,177 ~ I will 490 00:25:46,769 --> 00:25:47,769 Mm-hmm. 491 00:25:47,678 --> 00:25:50,449 I will go to my grave arguing for a 14 week semester. 492 00:25:50,449 --> 00:25:55,921 I think that another way that online learning has sort of ~ made itself look 493 00:25:55,921 --> 00:26:00,623 bad is really shortening up the the timeframe to complete course content. 494 00:26:00,623 --> 00:26:05,285 It's just unrealistic. So I think it does take time to build those relationships. 495 00:26:06,023 --> 00:26:11,317 but I do and I think the other misconception is that you're only communicating 496 00:26:11,417 --> 00:26:14,750 in text-space medium. And I think you can make personal connections 497 00:26:14,194 --> 00:26:15,194 Mm. 498 00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:17,032 with people in text. you know, 499 00:26:17,032 --> 00:26:21,195 I have great relationships with people I've only really interacted with online 500 00:26:21,195 --> 00:26:25,128 and have text-based conversations or emails or on discussion boards. 501 00:26:25,128 --> 00:26:27,800 ~ but I think pulling in video is really, 502 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,732 really important in our current online space. 503 00:26:30,732 --> 00:26:31,732 ~ 504 00:26:31,993 --> 00:26:33,754 I have my students do a lot of videos. 505 00:26:33,754 --> 00:26:35,455 I have them do a video introduction. 506 00:26:35,455 --> 00:26:37,276 I can see their face with their name. 507 00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:41,268 ~ I have them do video, I I alternate kind of between 508 00:26:41,268 --> 00:26:44,740 the traditional text-based discussion boards and video discussions, 509 00:26:44,740 --> 00:26:48,442 so that again it can just see them in in a different format. 510 00:26:48,442 --> 00:26:51,704 ~ and I I also give, you know, 511 00:26:51,704 --> 00:26:56,367 audio feedback and just lit little tiny things like always using their names when 512 00:26:56,367 --> 00:26:59,769 addressing them, ~ and always making myself 513 00:27:00,303 --> 00:27:05,938 available and also ~ human to them in in my teaching and in who I am, 514 00:27:05,938 --> 00:27:08,420 why I'm here, and also when I can't be here, 515 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:10,741 why I'm not here, when I'm out in my garden, 516 00:27:10,741 --> 00:27:17,097 you know, that those things I think help make me more than just ~ a talking head 517 00:27:17,097 --> 00:27:21,090 or just a text, you know, a a typed up comment. 518 00:27:21,090 --> 00:27:25,223 ~ and I think especially now as obviously AI, 519 00:27:25,223 --> 00:27:26,434 we're seeing more and more AI, 520 00:27:26,434 --> 00:27:29,937 I think that it's going to become even more important because 521 00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:34,535 Students are gonna wanna know that it's not a bot that's teaching their class, 522 00:27:34,535 --> 00:27:36,507 it's not a bot who's giving them feedback, 523 00:27:36,507 --> 00:27:42,675 but that it's really an actual human ~ who is there behind reading their papers, 524 00:27:42,675 --> 00:27:46,169 giving them comments, and helping them grow throughout the course of a semester. 525 00:27:46,919 --> 00:27:49,293 Well s perfect segue here. In twenty 526

00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:49,710 Good. 527 00:27:49,293 --> 00:27:51,796 twenty two you used Chat GPT for the first time. 528 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:54,480 You immediately thought, you said, 529 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,745 you've told me that this was going to change education for the better. 530 00:27:57,745 --> 00:28:00,059 That was your initial your initial take. 531 00:28:00,809 --> 00:28:05,185 What in that moment, we'll just linger on that moment back a couple years ago, 532 00:28:05,185 --> 00:28:06,607 what did you think was going to happen? 533 00:28:07,786 --> 00:28:11,158 So as an instructional designer for my entire career, 534 00:28:11,158 --> 00:28:15,040 I've been trying to move faculty towards authentic assessments that really 535 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,282 are measuring student learning and not just regurgitation or their ability 536 00:28:19,282 --> 00:28:23,685 to take a test or a quiz. ~ And developing assignments and activities that 537 00:28:23,685 --> 00:28:27,547 are rooted in the students' lives or their values or the things that they're 538 00:28:27,547 --> 00:28:30,969 interested in ~ in order to make the learning meaningful, 539 00:28:30,969 --> 00:28:35,661 which we do know is how students learn best when it's connected to 540 00:28:35,661 --> 00:28:37,182 the context of their lives. 541 00:28:37,936 --> 00:28:41,539 So when I, you know, typed in to Chat GPT, 542 00:28:41,539 --> 00:28:43,290 like, hey, write me a paper. What, 543 00:28:43,290 --> 00:28:46,513 you know, what is who's George Washington? 544 00:28:46,513 --> 00:28:48,315 And in two seconds it gave me a, 545 00:28:48,315 --> 00:28:50,651 you know, nice five paragraph essay. 546 00:28:50,651 --> 00:28:52,138 I was like, well, there it goes. 547 00:28:52,138 --> 00:28:54,410 You know, if any kid can get access to this, 548 00:28:54,410 --> 00:28:57,292 then teachers aren't going to be able to make these kinds of assignments anymore. 549 00:28:57,292 --> 00:29:01,075 They're going to have to really root the students' assignments in their 550 00:29:01,075 --> 00:29:06,980 own the students context in order to understand if they've learned or not. 551 00:29:07,112 --> 00:29:10,026 Because every kid's gonna be able to give you this exact same paper. 552 00:29:10,026 --> 00:29:12,709 To be fair, that was possible before. 553 00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:14,531 I mean, you could Google papers, 554 00:29:14,531 --> 00:29:18,276 but it just the the it made it so much easier. 555 00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:19,548 ~ and 556 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:25,546 That's interesting. So you saw the technology as a challenge to a weakness that 557 00:29:25,546 --> 00:29:27,950 we have put up with in the educational system, 558 00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:30,204 right? Or that that isn't yeah. 559 00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:31,872 Yes. I actually no. 560 00:29:30,204 --> 00:29:32,117 Interesting. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you, 561 00:29:31,872 --> 00:29:33,333 Yes, that's good 562 00:29:32,117 --> 00:29:33,179 but that's fascinating. Yeah. 563 00:29:33,413 --> 00:29:35,574 rephrasing. And I actually was sort of excited. 564 00:29:35,574 --> 00:29:38,836 Like this is it. This is it. All of education. 565 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:41,588 I think, you know, we could have another chat about what's wrong with 566 00:29:41,588 --> 00:29:43,499 K twelve education. But I was like, 567 00:29:43,499 --> 00:29:46,651 this is gonna change everything and faculty aren't gonna be able to 568 00:29:46,651 --> 00:29:50,983 get away with it. ~ but yeah, 569 00:29:50,983 --> 00:29:52,724 that was that was my first thinking. 570 00:29:52,724 --> 00:29:54,335 That's not where it went. 571 00:29:55,944 --> 00:29:58,352 And then and then what did happen? 572 00:29:58,352 --> 00:30:01,293 How's your thinking evolved since twenty twenty two? 573 00:30:01,455 --> 00:30:06,358 So two things happen. One is that the immediate reaction from faculty 574 00:30:06,358 --> 00:30:08,819 and teachers was, we need to police this. 575 00:30:08,819 --> 00:30:12,291 Like these kids are bad. They are just shortcutting the system. 576 00:30:12,291 --> 00:30:15,563 We need to figure out how do we how do we know if this is Chat GPT? 577 00:30:15,563 --> 00:30:18,685 Well, AI, I guess we should call it by its by its name. 578 00:30:18,685 --> 00:30:23,628 ~ you know, how can we ensure that that this is authentic student work? 579 00:30:23,628 --> 00:30:25,399 What tools could we use? Let's 580 00:30:24,784 --> 00:30:25,784 Yeah. 581 00:30:25,399 --> 00:30:28,001 let's find some tools. I want to know how to catch the cheating. 582 00:30:28,419 --> 00:30:30,621 How to catch the cheaters? How do we cut down on this? 583 00:30:30,621 --> 00:30:36,968 Like I said, in both the K-12 and higher ed space and less reflective, 584 00:30:36,968 --> 00:30:39,450 what am I doing wrong as an educator? 585 00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:44,195 What could I do better? I think we're seeing more of a a move towards that now, 586 00:30:44,195 --> 00:30:47,779 but it's slow. ~ and I think we've been trying, 587 00:30:47,779 --> 00:30:51,232 people like me and you have been trying to raise awareness about this for 25 years. 588 00:30:51,232 --> 00:30:52,232 So 589 00:30:52,099 --> 00:30:53,910 The change I think is still going to be slow, 590 00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:56,141 but the technology is just really outpacing us. 591 00:30:56,141 --> 00:30:59,042 And I think something really dramatic is going to have to happen. 592 00:30:59,042 --> 00:31:03,985 The other thing that I saw that was equally disappointing to me 593 00:31:03,985 --> 00:31:08,347 was that assignments that I thought I had really designed that were 594 00:31:08,687 --> 00:31:10,808 AI proof because I'm so clever, 595 00:31:10,808 --> 00:31:14,899 ~ students were still cheating with AI. 596 00:31:14,899 --> 00:31:15,899 And 597 00:31:15,472 --> 00:31:16,472 Mm. 598 00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:17,561 so I had to reflect on. 599 00:31:17,796 -->

00:31:20,567 Why am I doing these things? ~ last semester, 600 00:31:20,567 --> 00:31:22,258 I have an assignment at the end of the semester. 601 00:31:22,258 --> 00:31:24,599 I have great relationship and rapport with my students. 602 00:31:24,599 --> 00:31:28,700 ~ but their final assignment was to post what they learned from my class 603 00:31:29,020 --> 00:31:35,113 at the end of the semester. And ~ five out of 15 just used Chat 604 00:31:35,113 --> 00:31:40,475 GPT to re ~ reword the previous post on the discussion board. 605 00:31:40,475 --> 00:31:41,865 And I thought, wow, if 606 00:31:41,528 --> 00:31:42,528 Mm. 607 00:31:41,865 --> 00:31:45,607 these students aren't even interested in reflecting on what they learned 608 00:31:45,607 --> 00:31:46,607 and posting. 609 00:31:47,143 --> 00:31:48,984 you know, kind of what am I doing here? 610 00:31:48,984 --> 00:31:52,146 after I really thought about it, 611 00:31:52,146 --> 00:31:56,238 it was clear that hadn't made it apparent to them why that process was important, 612 00:31:56,238 --> 00:31:57,529 why it was going to help them, 613 00:31:57,529 --> 00:32:02,572 why I didn't really care if they used complete sentences or if they spelled things 614 00:32:02,572 --> 00:32:05,194 correctly. It was just more about them thinking back. 615 00:32:05,194 --> 00:32:09,526 ~ and that they retired at the end of the semester. 616 00:32:09,526 --> 00:32:12,308 And this was just one last thing they had to check off the list and 617 00:32:12,308 --> 00:32:13,699 it wasn't worth their time. 618 00:32:14,167 --> 00:32:16,787 other things that they wanted to do in their lives to sit down and 619 00:32:16,790 --> 00:32:21,275 and really write this. So I had to think about how I would restructure that 620 00:32:21,295 --> 00:32:24,058 or really the purpose of an assignment like that. 621 00:32:24,058 --> 00:32:30,075 ~ and so it it the thing I thought would happen when I initially opened Chat 622 00:32:30,075 --> 00:32:34,339 GPT happened to me, you know, questioning why am I 623 00:32:33,476 --> 00:32:34,476 Yeah, yeah. 624 00:32:34,339 --> 00:32:35,841 doing this and what can I do better. 625 00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:43,479 Yeah. ~ if there was a little playbook that you or I don't know, 626 00:32:43,479 --> 00:32:47,131 piece of advice for anybody who's designing any kind 627 00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:53,465 of ~ any kind of assignment that could 628 00:32:54,125 --> 00:32:57,156 conceivably be partially done with AI, 629 00:32:57,156 --> 00:33:03,920 what's a good principle that you might you might promote that would help somebody 630 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,721 in their thinking through of 631 00:33:06,846 --> 00:33:12,148 How do I make this still engaging for the person who's doing the work? 632 00:33:12,148 --> 00:33:14,099 So they're actually doing the work. 633 00:33:14,099 --> 00:33:17,531 They are doing the thinking. They're doing the hard and necessary work 634 00:33:17,531 --> 00:33:23,493 of the learning process. Is there anything in the in the mechanics 635 00:33:23,513 --> 00:33:28,756 of or the structure of building an assignment that you think is a is a good 636 00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:31,777 one to consider when you're putting together an assignment? 637 00:33:32,186 --> 00:33:35,678 I I think there's a lot of things and I could probably talk to this for a long time, 638 00:33:35,678 --> 00:33:38,741 but I'll I'll try to keep it a little focused. 639 00:33:38,741 --> 00:33:41,353 I I think a couple big picture things. 640 00:33:41,353 --> 00:33:44,745 One is that a lot of assignments assignments shouldn't happen in isolation. 641 00:33:44,745 --> 00:33:47,887 I mean, it's gotta be kind of tied to everything else that's happened in the course. 642 00:33:47,887 --> 00:33:49,298 If you have something 643 00:33:48,741 --> 00:33:49,741 Mm-hmm. 644 00:33:49,298 --> 00:33:53,031 that's just in isolation, that's a very easy thing to cheat on. 645 00:33:53,031 --> 00:33:56,323 But if students have been working towards something all semester or over 646 00:33:56,323 --> 00:33:57,514 a couple of weeks or whatever, 647 00:33:57,514 --> 00:33:59,676 ~ and they see the value in it, 648 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:00,676 in 649 00:34:00,368 --> 00:34:03,240 completing that assignment and how it connects to everything else. 650 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,652 I think that that makes them more likely to do it. 651 00:34:05,652 --> 00:34:09,254 ~ I think this is like counterintuitive, 652 00:34:09,254 --> 00:34:10,815 how to get them to do the hard work. 653 00:34:10,815 --> 00:34:12,056 I think you have to make it easier. 654 00:34:12,056 --> 00:34:15,938 You know, they they shouldn't have to go out and and research an article 655 00:34:15,938 --> 00:34:19,621 and find five articles and pick the best article and we have to sort 656 00:34:19,621 --> 00:34:23,103 of streamline like here's a really great article I've edited for you. 657 00:34:23,103 --> 00:34:25,025 Here's what you need to get this done. 658 00:34:25,025 --> 00:34:29,187 Read it, really digest it, give them the tools and talk to them about 659 00:34:29,187 --> 00:34:30,187 how to do that. 660 00:34:30,275 --> 00:34:34,170 You know, give them maybe ~ an organizer to break down here some of the 661 00:34:34,170 --> 00:34:35,381 key points I want you to look for, 662 00:34:35,381 --> 00:34:38,043 and then give them a fairly easy assignment. 663 00:34:38,043 --> 00:34:39,925 It shouldn't be a hundred page paper. 664 00:34:39,925 --> 00:34:43,007 You know, it's gotta be give me a couple paragraphs. 665 00:34:43,007 --> 00:34:46,761 ~ so I think in in making it easier, 666 00:34:46,761 --> 00:34:50,344 actually we'll get them to engage more deeply in the work that we want them to do. 667 00:34:50,344 --> 00:34:53,397 You have to be realistic that these people are very busy, 668 00:34:53,397 --> 00:34:56,029 no matter what age they are. There are other things that they wanna 669 00:34:56,029 -->

00:34:57,060 be doing with their time. 670 00:34:57,549 --> 00:35:00,770 ~ we only can grab their attention for a short amount of time. 671 00:35:00,770 --> 00:35:04,552 And how do we make the most of that time for them so they can get the most 672 00:35:04,552 --> 00:35:08,914 out of it? And the third thing is I think thinking about other delivery formats. 673 00:35:08,914 --> 00:35:13,706 ~ I had students do some reflections this week that were similar to 674 00:35:13,706 --> 00:35:15,226 my my other reflection assignment, 675 00:35:15,226 --> 00:35:19,238 but they did it in video, and I got really robust responses that were rooted 676 00:35:19,238 --> 00:35:23,940 in their own experience. ~ students are often uncomfortable at first getting 677 00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:24,940 on video. 678 00:35:25,554 --> 00:35:27,326 but by the end of a semester with me, 679 00:35:27,326 --> 00:35:28,567 you're doing it. It's, you know, 680 00:35:28,567 --> 00:35:31,849 it's very ~ just it comes more easily. 681 00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:35,492 ~ or if they're not comfortable in video doing the audio piece. 682 00:35:35,492 --> 00:35:37,914 And I think that people will say to me, 683 00:35:37,914 --> 00:35:41,077 like, well, they still could have Chat GPT write their thing and then read it. 684 00:35:41,077 --> 00:35:44,710 Okay. But at least now if they're reading the script to a camera, 685 00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:48,132 at least I know they're they've given it one read through and maybe parts 686 00:35:48,132 --> 00:35:49,654 of it have gone into their brain. 687 00:35:49,654 --> 00:35:50,654 So 688 00:35:50,664 --> 00:35:55,739 Despite the fact that you know that some students are using this technology 689 00:35:55,739 --> 00:35:57,040 in ways that you don't want them to, 690 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,912 most of them are not, some of them are. 691 00:35:58,912 --> 00:36:05,217 You ~ have mentioned to me that the vast majority of your students have 692 00:36:05,238 --> 00:36:10,863 developed a pretty critical, even negative view of AI technology. 693 00:36:10,863 --> 00:36:16,478 I'm kind of curious what you see when you see that. 694 00:36:17,228 --> 00:36:20,679 Yeah, so I think a lot of people come into instructional design. 695 00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:23,060 I'm gonna talk a little more broadly about tech, 696 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:25,641 just tech in general and being critical of tech. 697 00:36:24,909 --> 00:36:26,794 Yeah. Yeah. 698 00:36:25,641 --> 00:36:26,641 ~ 699 00:36:27,002 --> 00:36:28,763 I'm pretty tech critical. You know, 700 00:36:28,763 --> 00:36:31,004 I use a lot of technology, I love technology, 701 00:36:31,004 --> 00:36:34,385 but I really think that we need to be really mindful and intentional of 702 00:36:34,385 --> 00:36:39,007 how we use it. And I think I don't need to list examples of how that's gone awry 703 00:36:39,007 --> 00:36:42,248 in society when we're not thinking about how we're using it. 704 00:36:42,147 --> 00:36:46,551

You you sure don't. We we all we all 705 00:36:42,248 --> 00:36:45,470 That's another yeah, 706 00:36:45,470 --> 00:36:46,470 we all know that. 707 00:36:46,551 --> 00:36:48,143 have our own examples in our heads, 708 00:36:47,414 --> 00:36:50,295 We all know that. Yes. so 709 00:36:48,143 --> 00:36:49,334 yes. Yeah. 710 00:36:50,295 --> 00:36:51,746 the students that come into my program, 711 00:36:51,746 --> 00:36:55,878 you know, our title is the Masters in Instructional Design and Technology. 712 00:36:55,878 --> 00:36:59,390 I think I get a lot of students who are super excited about technology 713 00:36:59,390 --> 00:37:01,761 and using it and bringing it into their teaching. 714 00:37:01,761 --> 00:37:07,404 ~ but I really work hard to make them be more critical in thinking about 715 00:37:07,784 --> 00:37:10,685 why do you want to use this tool in your teaching? 716 00:37:10,685 --> 00:37:12,396 ~ I by the end of the 717 00:37:12,717 --> 00:37:15,888 When they graduate, they are not chasing any shiny new thing. 718 00:37:15,888 --> 00:37:21,310 None of my students will ever chase the next shiny new thing because we've talked 719 00:37:21,310 --> 00:37:24,702 about the long history of educational technology and where people thought this 720 00:37:24,702 --> 00:37:28,543 was the next big thing that was going to change it all and how money 721 00:37:28,543 --> 00:37:32,155 has been wasted and invested in those things that f that fail out. 722 00:37:32,155 --> 00:37:37,397 I we really work hard to understand how the impact of technology on us, 723 00:37:37,397 --> 00:37:39,838 on our thinking, on our learning and 724 00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:44,693 where it makes the most sense to leverage it in our teaching ~ and where 725 00:37:44,693 --> 00:37:46,114 it just becomes a distraction. 726 00:37:46,114 --> 00:37:49,056 And we also talk a lot about, you know, 727 00:37:49,056 --> 00:37:51,938 it it the ethics of it, the the access. 728 00:37:51,938 --> 00:37:55,311 You know, this is great. I have I teach a course in emerging technology. 729 00:37:55,311 --> 00:37:57,472 And at the beginning of the module, 730 00:37:57,472 --> 00:37:59,474 everyone's so excited. Like virtual reality, 731 00:37:59,474 --> 00:38:03,947 this is going to be so cool. But once we dig into it and we look for examples 732 00:38:03,987 --> 00:38:08,270 of it in education or in any kind of training and learning spaces. 733 00:38:09,474 --> 00:38:11,435 And we all often come up short by the end, 734 00:38:11,435 --> 00:38:13,875 finding really good examples of it being done well. 735 00:38:13,875 --> 00:38:17,018 It's expensive. How, okay, how are you going to pay for it? 736 00:38:17,018 --> 00:38:18,797 How are you going to get your district to pay for this? 737 00:38:18,797 --> 00:38:21,887 What happens when your district can pay for it, 738 00:38:21,887 --> 00:38:25,919 but other districts can't? ~ and so we talk about access and 739 00:38:25,919 --> 00:38:30,610 we talk

about accessibility. ~ and I think looking at tech through 740 00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:35,281 all those different lenses by the end makes my students much more critical. 741 00:38:35,281 --> 00:38:36,542 They are definitely 742 00:38:36,175 --> 00:38:37,175 Mm. 743 00:38:36,962 --> 00:38:38,062 very tech savvy. 744 00:38:38,568 --> 00:38:41,702 ~ I would still say they most of them love technology, 745 00:38:41,702 --> 00:38:47,380 ~ but I think that they're wise to its ~ allure 746 00:38:47,380 --> 00:38:52,768 and its false promises by the end of the program and they try to think really much 747 00:38:52,768 --> 00:38:55,672 more intentionally about how we bring it into teaching and learning spaces. 748 00:38:56,422 --> 00:39:02,217 You mentioned before that you have a lot of alumni who go on to build careers, 749 00:39:02,217 --> 00:39:06,811 obviously, in this space. And I would imagine some of those people 750 00:39:06,812 --> 00:39:09,294 are now hiring instructional designers. 751 00:39:09,294 --> 00:39:11,976 You probably keep up with those folks. 752 00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:16,000 I'm curious when you talk to people out in the market, 753 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,194 businesses or nonprofits or other kinds of organizations, 754 00:39:20,194 --> 00:39:21,445 and they are thinking about. 755 00:39:22,195 --> 00:39:24,782 instructional designers and hiring, 756 00:39:24,782 --> 00:39:27,871 what are they telling you they want and need in candidates? 757 00:39:28,648 --> 00:39:31,679 Yeah, I I came to the realization this year when I stepped into 758 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,190 the director role that I haven't been in an instructional designer role 759 00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:39,101 for quite some time and it made sense to talk to people doing the actual work 760 00:39:39,361 --> 00:39:42,442 and in particular people doing the hiring so I can make sure that 761 00:39:42,442 --> 00:39:46,403 our curriculum is aligned with what our students are going to need to land jobs. 762 00:39:46,403 --> 00:39:50,984 ~ and I was fortunate that had about 10 prior students come back and talk 763 00:39:50,984 --> 00:39:53,265 to me ~ from their leadership positions. 764 00:39:53,265 --> 00:39:55,946 And so they really talked about three key things. 765 00:39:55,946 --> 00:39:57,486 The first is AI literacy. 766 00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:03,196 obviously, you know, and ~ that doesn't mean just having a certificate 767 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:06,909 in prompt engineering or knowing what the different platforms are. 768 00:40:06,909 --> 00:40:11,183 ~ what they were talking about really was knowing again when to pull in 769 00:40:11,183 --> 00:40:15,056 AI and when not to, and when is it appropriate for an instructional designer to 770 00:40:14,335 --> 00:40:15,335 Mm. 771 00:40:15,056 --> 00:40:17,738 use AI in their work or to help with their work, 772 00:40:17,738 --> 00:40:19,990 ~ and when it's inappropriate. 773 00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:21,981 And a lot of those conversations came around, 774 00:40:21,981 --> 00:40:22,981 ~ 775 00:40:23,696 --> 00:40:27,189 making sure that the the correct language was being used in the copy that 776 00:40:27,189 --> 00:40:31,401 was being put out, that branding was being upheld in the in the products that 777 00:40:31,401 --> 00:40:36,295 the AI was producing. So really being again critical of of the 778 00:40:36,295 --> 00:40:38,787 AI output and understanding where to use it, 779 00:40:38,787 --> 00:40:43,930 where not to use it, and that it really still involves a heavy human hand before 780 00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:45,131 rolling something out the door. 781 00:40:45,131 --> 00:40:49,555 So I don't think if you were up interviewing for an ID job right 782 00:40:49,555 --> 00:40:51,646 now and you couldn't speak at all to AI. 783 00:40:52,062 --> 00:40:53,966 that they are even gonna give you a call back. 784 00:40:53,966 --> 00:40:56,671 I think you have to really have a big awareness about it. 785 00:40:56,671 --> 00:41:00,358 So yeah, go ahead. 786 00:41:01,106 --> 00:41:02,657 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 787 00:41:02,657 --> 00:41:05,819 I I well actually there's something that you said that's a little different from 788 00:41:05,819 --> 00:41:10,662 what I've heard to answers to similar questions because we hear 789 00:41:10,662 --> 00:41:16,045 a lot about business leaders and hiring managers having this like 790 00:41:17,226 --> 00:41:18,226 frothy 791 00:41:19,197 --> 00:41:25,703 Kind of monolithic belief that everybody 792 00:41:25,703 --> 00:41:27,585 has to be using AI all the time, 793 00:41:27,585 --> 00:41:31,629 that that just, 794 00:41:31,629 --> 00:41:35,132 you know, we need to just be pouring AI all over our problems, 795 00:41:35,132 --> 00:41:38,375 and the AI is going to make those problems go away or get easier. 796 00:41:38,375 --> 00:41:43,060 It's nice to hear ~ a little bit more discernment from the people that you've been 797 00:41:43,060 --> 00:41:44,281 talking to about. 798 00:41:44,975 --> 00:41:48,787 Or or wanting more discernment from the people that are in their organizations about 799 00:41:48,787 --> 00:41:51,628 how, when, and why to use AI in their work, 800 00:41:51,628 --> 00:41:56,020 that they're looking for the ability to understand its strengths 801 00:41:56,020 --> 00:42:00,992 and weaknesses and be able to think critically about where it fits into 802 00:42:00,992 --> 00:42:03,773 the work as opposed to just like brute force, 803 00:42:03,773 --> 00:42:08,315 just just jam AI in everywhere and it's gonna make it everything better. 804 00:42:08,315 --> 00:42:11,676 That's that's great. I haven't heard a lot of what you just said, 805 00:42:11,676 --> 00:42:13,757 so I'm I'm heartened. 806 00:42:14,352 --> 00:42:17,735 You have to talk to students who graduated from my from my program. 807 00:42:17,735 --> 00:42:21,527 I think that comes with that critical the critical assessment of tech. 808 00:42:21,527 -->

00:42:25,080 We're not just gonna chase the next tech and add it onto everything. 809 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,082 ~ and I I I 810 00:42:26,621 --> 00:42:27,621 Mm-hmm. 811 00:42:27,082 --> 00:42:29,984 talk to people to be fair too across construction management, 812 00:42:29,984 --> 00:42:33,647 ~ medical device technology, tr insurance, 813 00:42:33,647 --> 00:42:35,408 of course. I always have insurance people, 814 00:42:35,408 --> 00:42:40,442 ~ and higher ed. So all all in different spaces where they were. 815 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,320 saying, yeah, we are using AI, 816 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,161 but we want to use it really mindfully. 817 00:42:44,161 --> 00:42:48,052 ~ and we want to hire people who understand that and who aren't just gonna 818 00:42:48,052 --> 00:42:51,743 use it to just do everything. So yeah, 819 00:42:51,743 --> 00:42:54,504 that was that was the big it so AI literacy. 820 00:42:54,504 --> 00:42:58,585 ~ the second was ~ still core instructional design skills. 821 00:42:58,585 --> 00:43:00,125 You know, you need to understand 822 00:42:59,613 --> 00:43:00,613 Mm. 823 00:43:00,125 --> 00:43:03,656 the theory. They even said you need to understand like basic, 824 00:43:03,656 --> 00:43:06,707 like some HTMLs you can get in and tinker with things. 825 00:43:06,707 --> 00:43:10,278 You need to have the tools like storyline and ~ 826 00:43:10,791 --> 00:43:12,072 They talked a lot about video. 827 00:43:12,072 --> 00:43:14,244 Video editing was a big one that kept coming up. 828 00:43:14,244 --> 00:43:16,493 So you have to have kind of those tech skills, 829 00:43:16,493 --> 00:43:19,008 the b basic level tech skills. 830 00:43:19,008 --> 00:43:23,701 And then the third big bucket of what the instructional design hiring managers were 831 00:43:23,701 --> 00:43:26,193 looking for is like more of the project management, 832 00:43:26,193 --> 00:43:28,378 working with subject matter experts, 833 00:43:28,378 --> 00:43:32,118 ~ communicating with stakeholders and managing, 834 00:43:32,118 --> 00:43:33,780 you know, timelines in projects. 835 00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:37,583 So those were the things that they felt were were what they needed. 836 00:43:37,583 --> 00:43:39,024 ~ and those are 837 00:43:39,364 --> 00:43:41,871 A lot of those things carry strongly through our program, 838 00:43:41,871 --> 00:43:44,940 but it's definitely areas that I'm gonna continue to try to really build up. 839 00:43:45,690 --> 00:43:48,389 That's that's wonderful. That's refreshingly balanced. 840 00:43:48,377 --> 00:43:49,377 Yes, 841 00:43:48,877 --> 00:43:53,090 yes. Yeah, I was expecting just all in on AI or all in on tech, 842 00:43:53,090 --> 00:43:57,602 but it really was those three those three buckets and the need for all of it. 843 00:43:57,602 --> 00:43:59,874 ~ it's a complex field, you know, 844 00:43:59,874 --> 00:44:01,245 we talked about that at the beginning. 845 00:44:01,245 --> 00:44:03,666 It you you need to know a lot

of things. 846 00:44:03,666 --> 00:44:06,538 You don't need to know everything to be successful in this space. 847 00:44:06,538 --> 00:44:08,809 If you're deep in one area or a couple, 848 00:44:08,809 --> 00:44:10,290 I think you can be successful, 849 00:44:09,724 --> 00:44:10,724 Mm-hmm. 850 00:44:10,590 --> 00:44:12,961 but you need to have an awareness about a lot of things, 851 00:44:12,961 --> 00:44:15,513 I think, to be a really effective instructional designer. 852 00:44:16,422 --> 00:44:22,465 Yeah. Yeah. And you know, this this next we just have a couple questions left. 853 00:44:22,465 --> 00:44:27,127 This next question is framed nicely by your last answer. 854 00:44:27,127 --> 00:44:31,868 I'm just gonna ask it, but I I feel like I'm asking it in a different 855 00:44:31,868 --> 00:44:33,018 way than I thought I would be. 856 00:44:33,018 --> 00:44:35,720 So, based on everything, what your students are experiencing, 857 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:37,150 what employers are asking for, 858 00:44:37,150 --> 00:44:38,761 and where the field is right now, 859 00:44:38,761 --> 00:44:42,373 what are your biggest fears for the future of instructional design and what 860 00:44:42,373 --> 00:44:43,373 are your biggest hopes? 861 00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:47,462 So I think my biggest fear is probably everyone's fear that AI, 862 00:44:47,462 --> 00:44:50,655 the the some of the people you've talked to where they're saying, 863 00:44:50,655 --> 00:44:52,675 I'm just being told use AI for everything, 864 00:44:52,675 --> 00:44:55,379 that AI is going to be used for everything, 865 00:44:55,379 --> 00:44:57,961 that people in upper administration are going to say, 866 00:44:57,961 --> 00:45:00,092 Hey, we can build training. We'll just use AI. 867 00:45:00,092 --> 00:45:06,367 And just more and more AI slop taking over the space where we're just seeing 868 00:45:06,367 --> 00:45:09,610 so much garbage and and it checking off a box that, 869 00:45:09,610 --> 00:45:12,072 you know, we developed some e-learning for you and it's just 870 00:45:12,072 --> 00:45:13,703 not effective and people are not. 871 00:45:14,145 --> 00:45:19,529 being well trained or well prepared and really having people say, 872 00:45:19,529 --> 00:45:23,425 like we develop these things with AI and that's instructional design and 873 00:45:23,425 --> 00:45:27,155 it sort of cheapening the name instructional design. 874 00:45:27,155 --> 00:45:33,860 ~ and devaluing it, that's my worst my worst case scenario and AI just taking 875 00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:37,613 all of our jobs. That's why I have my my background skill of gardening 876 00:45:37,613 --> 00:45:39,964 and and being out in my yard as a fallback. 877 00:45:39,964 --> 00:45:40,964 ~ 878 00:45:40,949 --> 00:45:42,309 I don't think that's gonna happen. 879 00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:44,110 I don't think we're gonna go that far. 880 00:45:44,110 --> 00:45:50,052 ~ my absolute most hopeful ideal is that as we're in this space where things 881 00:45:50,052 --> 00:45:53,893 are changing so rapidly, new tech is coming on board so fast. 882 00:45:53,893 --> 00:45:57,464 ~ there's just a constant need to learn and upskill. 883 00:45:57,464 --> 00:46:01,775 And we see that people need to really engage in lifelong learning, 884 00:46:01,775 --> 00:46:05,116 that there'll be a renewed demand for instructional designers 885 00:46:05,116 --> 00:46:07,887 for well-designed instruction and effective learning. 886 00:46:07,887 --> 00:46:09,227 ~ and 887 00:46:09,757 --> 00:46:14,801 in that ideal space, people are leveraging AI to help them do the work. 888 00:46:14,801 --> 00:46:17,193 But again, with that just critical eye, 889 00:46:17,193 --> 00:46:20,446 thinking about how we can use it to help us, 890 00:46:20,446 --> 00:46:26,201 but not forgetting that our human minds are much more ~ effective 891 00:46:26,201 --> 00:46:28,833 at figuring out what's going to work best for human learners. 892 00:46:29,583 --> 00:46:31,835 Okay, I have one last question, 893 00:46:31,835 --> 00:46:35,448 one last question for you. And this is from my my last guest. 894 00:46:35,448 --> 00:46:40,052 Her name is Brenda Boyd. Brenda worked at Quality Matters for many years. 895 00:46:40,052 --> 00:46:43,755 We had a really good conversation about quality and online learning, 896 00:46:43,755 --> 00:46:49,560 but quality in general. And I asked her to give me a question to ask my neck 897 00:46:49,580 --> 00:46:51,762 net my next guest. And here's her question. 898 00:46:51,762 --> 00:46:57,337 she asks, What does quality look like in what you're doing? 899 00:46:58,087 --> 00:46:59,087 So 900 00:46:59,238 --> 00:47:03,540 I'm gonna go with sort of what does quality look like in online learning 901 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,843 and making creating effective online learning experiences. 902 00:47:08,843 --> 00:47:11,405 I think it looks like happy students at the end of the day. 903 00:47:11,405 --> 00:47:12,775 And I don't mean 904 00:47:12,158 --> 00:47:13,158 Yeah. 905 00:47:12,775 --> 00:47:17,158 the happy student who just fills out their course evaluation and says, 906 00:47:17,158 --> 00:47:19,153 this was a fun class. It was so easy, 907 00:47:19,153 --> 00:47:23,892 I had a great time. ~ but happy students who say what you taught me. 908 00:47:24,792 --> 00:47:27,253 in this course immediately applied to my life. 909 00:47:27,253 --> 00:47:32,796 I was able to put the things I I learned into practice the next day in my classroom, 910 00:47:32,796 --> 00:47:35,537 in my corporate training workshop, 911 00:47:35,537 --> 00:47:40,619 in my, you know, working with my patients to educate them about their conditions. 912 00:47:40,619 --> 00:47:44,461 ~ it's the work being immediately applicable to them. 913 00:47:44,461 --> 00:47:49,563 It's them feeling like they were seen and heard and that their personal goals were 914 00:47:49,563 --> 00:47:51,524 met within the framework of the course. 915 00:47:51,524 --> 00:47:52,524 ~ 916 00:47:52,686 --> 00:47:56,037 And then them coming back ten years later to tell me what they're looking 917 00:47:56,037 --> 00:47:58,068 for and instructional designers that they're hiring. 918 00:47:58,068 --> 00:48:01,319 I think to me, like I said at the beginning, 919 00:48:01,319 --> 00:48:04,260 those relationships are what's most important in the work that we do. 920 00:48:04,260 --> 00:48:08,731 And being able to reach out to those students years later or have them reach back 921 00:48:08,731 --> 00:48:13,394 out to me, ~ I think that that's really what what quality looks like 922 00:48:13,394 --> 00:48:14,414 in in my teaching. 923 00:48:15,164 --> 00:48:18,886 I can't think of a better possible way to end this conversation, 924 00:48:18,886 --> 00:48:25,069 you know, by really ~ talking about the long-term payoffs and benefits 925 00:48:25,069 --> 00:48:29,182 for your learners and for the people that they impact in their work. 926 00:48:29,182 --> 00:48:32,423 I mean, this is one of the great things about this work is that there 927 00:48:32,423 --> 00:48:38,757 is this compounding positive ~ snowball of good stuff that happens 928 00:48:38,957 --> 00:48:41,558 ~ when we do our work well. Well, 929 00:48:41,558 --> 00:48:44,230 Kristen, I really want to thank you for coming on the show. 930 00:48:44,434 --> 00:48:46,682 Thank you. It's really been a delight talking to you. 931 00:48:46,884 --> 00:48:48,237 Yeah, thanks so much for having me, 932 00:48:48,237 --> 00:48:51,433 Jason. And thanks for your really thoughtful questions and all you're doing 933 00:48:51,433 --> 00:48:54,639 to promote instructional design and learning and development out in the world. 934 00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:55,639 I appreciate it.