رونوشت کامل 338: Jason Fried - How To Create The Ideal Company Culture (It Doesn't Have To Be Crazy At Work)

00:03:59.530 --> 00:04:02.580 exciting to do it. And I'm fascinated by the way 73 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:06.139 that you think. So I'm very curious to ask you, 74 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:08.180 what have you found when you think about the people 75 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:11.759 in your life as well as those you surround yourself with? 76 00:04:12.789 --> 00:04:16.009 The ones who have figured out a way to sustain 77 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:18.949 excellence over an extended period of time. What have you 78 00:04:18.990 --> 00:04:20.910 found those people seem to have in common? 79 00:04:22.430 --> 00:04:26.850 Well, it's funny. It's funny because I'm thinking about some 80 00:04:26.870 --> 00:04:28.610 stuff they have in common and then I'm going through 81 00:04:28.629 --> 00:04:30.250 my head right now and then I'm thinking about, wow, 82 00:04:30.310 --> 00:04:32.980 they also don't have things in common. But one of 83 00:04:33.009 --> 00:04:35.220 the things I think that's kind of standard is this 84 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:38.819 willingness to or this ability, I would say, to be 85 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.560 able to separate what's worth doing from what's not worth doing. 86 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:43.930 I think a lot of people I run into are 87 00:04:44.110 --> 00:04:47.589 very busy all the time. And a lot of them, 88 00:04:47.709 --> 00:04:48.889 you know, if you start to talk to them, you 89 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:51.490 find out like, what are you busy with? And as 90 00:04:51.509 --> 00:04:53.649 they tell you, in my head, I'm starting to go, 91 00:04:53.709 --> 00:04:55.699 you know, you probably shouldn't be spending time on that. 92 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:58.779 That's probably not worth it. The best people I've run into, though, 93 00:04:58.899 --> 00:05:01.160 are ones who are really only spending their time on 94 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:04.490 things that actually matter. And so I think developing a 95 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:07.269 skill to discern what's worth doing and what isn't worth 96 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:11.480 doing is probably one of those things that is fairly 97 00:05:11.540 --> 00:05:14.540 common among people I've met who are, let's say, performing 98 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.399 at a high level. Now, some people, though, who I've 99 00:05:17.420 --> 00:05:19.120 met who are performing at a high level are just 100 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:21.199 constantly busy with stuff that doesn't matter and they haven't 101 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:23.230 developed that skill well enough, but I do think it's 102 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:25.610 a pretty common skill and a really important one for 103 00:05:25.629 --> 00:05:28.569 anyone who wants to actually move forward versus just kind 104 00:05:28.589 --> 00:05:30.110 of running on the treadmill in place. 105 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:34.879 How would somebody listening... develop that skill? 106 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:39.339 It's, you know, it's hard because it's, um, it's a, 107 00:05:39.430 --> 00:05:41.470 it's a matter of, of like being a good editor, 108 00:05:42.069 --> 00:05:44.370 you know? So like, how would you become a good editor? 109 00:05:44.810 --> 00:05:47.069 Let's say you're a book publisher and you're an editor 110 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:49.839 and you need to become good at that. Like, like anything, it's, 111 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.500 it's a matter of practice, but It's trying to figure 112 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:56.009 out like looking back, perhaps on things you've done recently 113 00:05:56.470 --> 00:05:58.610 and go, was that worth doing? Like, why did why 114 00:05:58.649 --> 00:06:00.209 did I do that? So it's a matter of asking 115 00:06:00.269 --> 00:06:03.930 questions and being very reflective. I think at least that's 116 00:06:03.970 --> 00:06:06.040 a way to practice this, you know, because moving forward, 117 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:07.399 it's hard to practice. You have to kind of look 118 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.500 back and go. Those seven things I did this week, 119 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.000 was that worth doing? Like were they worth doing? Were 120 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.240 three of them worth doing? Why and why not were 121 00:06:15.259 --> 00:06:19.160 they worth doing? And just being able to spot those patterns. 122 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.540 So as new opportunities come up in front of you, 123 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:24.279 you can kind of discern which ones are worth doing, 124 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.120 which ones are not. So I would just start to 125 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.060 look back at your week. Like that's a great way 126 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:30.000 to start. Like let's say last week. What did you 127 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:31.800 do last week? Kind of document it, write it down, 128 00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:33.620 and then really pick it out and go, would I 129 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:35.180 want to do any of these things again? Were these 130 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.120 things I really had to do or these things I 131 00:06:37.170 --> 00:06:39.420 thought I had to do? What of these things do 132 00:06:39.459 --> 00:06:42.480 I regret doing? What was not worth doing? What could 133 00:06:42.500 --> 00:06:45.100 have been shorter? You know, like just kind of reflecting 134 00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:46.560 that way, I think is a great way to begin 135 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:49.040 to practice what it's like to have to edit your time. 136 00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:52.730 I would imagine this is a practice you have in 137 00:06:52.769 --> 00:06:57.430 place of self-reflection of analyzing your behavior to ensure that 138 00:06:57.529 --> 00:07:00.810 so that you can regularly improve at this really important skill. 139 00:07:02.290 --> 00:07:04.389 Less so now, but I used to do that a 140 00:07:04.389 --> 00:07:06.949 lot more frequently. Now I've kind of gotten much better 141 00:07:07.009 --> 00:07:09.050 at it, so it's a little bit more natural for me.

142 00:07:09.629 --> 00:07:11.879 But I still make mistakes moving forward. So one of 143 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:13.759 the things I make mistakes doing right now is like 144 00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:16.519 saying yes to things that are far in the future 145 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:20.829 because there's really no cost to that. If someone asks 146 00:07:20.870 --> 00:07:23.110 you to do something, let's say speaking at a conference 147 00:07:23.170 --> 00:07:26.389 or something, that requires travel. So I live in Chicago. 148 00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:28.420 If people ask me to speak at something in Chicago, 149 00:07:28.449 --> 00:07:30.620 I almost always say yes because it's a relatively easy 150 00:07:30.660 --> 00:07:33.540 thing to do. But if I have to travel, it's disruptive. 151 00:07:33.579 --> 00:07:35.879 I've got two young kids at home. I have to 152 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.959 leave them with my wife. It's a disruptive thing to 153 00:07:39.019 --> 00:07:43.990 have to do that. So I tend to... prefer not 154 00:07:44.050 --> 00:07:46.800 to travel to give speeches unless I just maybe do 155 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.839 a few a year. But point is, is that if 156 00:07:48.860 --> 00:07:51.459 someone asked me today, hey, you know, could you give 157 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:55.180 a talk at our thing in May next year? It's 158 00:07:55.220 --> 00:07:57.339 really easy to like be flattered by that, obviously, as 159 00:07:57.379 --> 00:07:59.399 you should be. But then also it's kind of easy 160 00:07:59.420 --> 00:08:01.120 to say yes, because you don't have to do anything 161 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.680 right now. It's like the ultimate form of procrastination. Like 162 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:06.399 I'll just put I'll just say yes. That sounds fun. 163 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:07.220 I get to go to Arizona. 164 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:07.699 All right. 165 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:10.459 That sounds great. But then when it comes time, I 166 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:13.970 find myself wishing I hadn't have said yes so easily 167 00:08:14.029 --> 00:08:16.629 to so many things far in the future. So the 168 00:08:16.649 --> 00:08:19.500 thing I'm practicing doing now is making sure that if 169 00:08:19.569 --> 00:08:23.540 anything's that far out, I'm pretty quick to say I 170 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.639 can't make a commitment right now. So I'll say like, 171 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:29.490 And I know that's difficult for a conference or whatever, 172 00:08:29.529 --> 00:08:32.149 but I'm just honest with people. I can't book months 173 00:08:32.289 --> 00:08:34.649 in advance for something that requires travel. I'm sorry. I 174 00:08:34.690 --> 00:08:35.990 just don't know what's going to be going on in 175 00:08:36.029 --> 00:08:39.269 my life at that time. So if there's a speaking 176 00:08:39.309 --> 00:08:41.419 slot that's open a month ahead of time or six 177 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.139 weeks ahead of time and you want to ask me again, 178 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.919 I'd be happy to consider it then. But right now, 179 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.399 I simply just can't say yes that far in advance. 180 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.379 So that's the thing I'm currently working on practicing. 181 00:08:51.539 --> 00:08:53.330 So you're the founder and CEO at Basecamp. 182 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:56.100 I believe you currently have 56 people who work for 183 00:08:56.139 --> 00:08:57.889 Basecamp in 30 countries. 184 00:08:57.950 --> 00:08:58.470 Is that accurate? 185 00:08:59.419 --> 00:09:03.909 Uh, 56 people, uh, probably, yeah, probably about 30. Well, 186 00:09:03.929 --> 00:09:05.289 not country. Sorry. 30 cities. 187 00:09:05.429 --> 00:09:06.009 Sorry. 188 00:09:06.350 --> 00:09:06.610 Yeah. 189 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:06.950 Yeah. 190 00:09:06.990 --> 00:09:08.230 Mostly in the U S and Canada. And then we 191 00:09:08.250 --> 00:09:10.370 have some people in Europe and then, uh, also in 192 00:09:10.409 --> 00:09:11.470 Hong Kong and Australia. 193 00:09:11.850 --> 00:09:13.580 Why have you found the South America? 194 00:09:13.629 --> 00:09:13.789 Yeah. 195 00:09:14.100 --> 00:09:16.320 Why have you found the remote? Cause there are people listening. 196 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:18.659 I work at a big company who that, that the 197 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.470 remote style is just not part of it. And I, 198 00:09:21.580 --> 00:09:23.000 and one of the things I wanted to do, the 199 00:09:23.019 --> 00:09:25.120 reason I want to talk to you is to open 200 00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:28.860 people's minds to the, to the potential of, to make 201 00:09:28.899 --> 00:09:31.490 a shift to this style of working and the advantages 202 00:09:31.590 --> 00:09:36.129 to it. What have been the advantages to you? Previous guest, 203 00:09:36.149 --> 00:09:39.970 David Hennemeyer Hanson, DHH, your co-founder. What have been the 204 00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:43.389 benefits to you guys for having your work structure set 205 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:44.090 up in this manner? 206 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:50.129 Yeah, so it's a great question. The primary reason is 207 00:09:50.169 --> 00:09:52.049 that we get to hire the best people we can 208 00:09:52.090 --> 00:09:55.340 find no matter where they are. The idea that the 209 00:09:55.379 --> 00:09:58.129 best people, first of all, every company says we want 210 00:09:58.149 --> 00:10:00.769 the best people. Everyone says that. And you don't really, 211 00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.759 that's not necessarily true. You don't necessarily want the best people. 212 00:10:03.820 --> 00:10:07.399 You want the right people. But regardless of that, it's 213 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.940 unlikely that the best or slash the right people just 214 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:14.539 happen to be within, let's say, a 30-mile radius of 215 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:19.259 your headquarters. It's like, maybe, but probably not. There's probably 216 00:10:19.299 --> 00:10:22.190

great people in another state, in another country, in another location, 217 00:10:22.230 --> 00:10:24.850 other continents. And so we've just kind of opened our 218 00:10:24.889 --> 00:10:29.929 approach well, we've opened our eyes basically saying like, let's 219 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:33.549 look all over because they're great people everywhere. And as 220 00:10:33.590 --> 00:10:35.549 long as you're comfortable working remotely and you have the 221 00:10:35.610 --> 00:10:37.720 systems in place and the processes in place and the 222 00:10:37.750 --> 00:10:41.299 software in place to do it, it's, it's pretty easy actually. 223 00:10:41.779 --> 00:10:43.960 And in fact, you end up with, with better people, 224 00:10:44.019 --> 00:10:47.519 I think, because the pool is larger and you can 225 00:10:47.539 --> 00:10:50.559 also go where there's less competition. So I don't mean 226 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.820 like for wages, but I mean like there's a number 227 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:55.399 of people who work at base camp who who would 228 00:10:55.419 --> 00:10:56.840 never have been able to get a job like this 229 00:10:56.899 --> 00:10:58.809 because they live in a small town on a farm 230 00:10:58.850 --> 00:11:02.750 or something or in a small town somewhere. And they're excellent, 231 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:05.360 but there's no one else looking to hire them because 232 00:11:05.389 --> 00:11:08.480 those jobs don't exist there. So we can find great 233 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:11.500 people without having to fight for great people. And I 234 00:11:11.539 --> 00:11:14.210 think that's one of the really, really big advantages of 235 00:11:14.230 --> 00:11:14.870 working remotely. 236 00:11:15.309 --> 00:11:17.850 Was this a decision you guys made from the very beginning? 237 00:11:17.950 --> 00:11:19.649 And can you take me back to that time, too? 238 00:11:19.710 --> 00:11:22.750 So two-part question. As far as your philosophy at the 239 00:11:22.789 --> 00:11:25.279 very beginning when you were getting started and what it 240 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:26.700 was like as you were building it. 241 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.799 Yeah, sure. It wasn't really our philosophy. It just kind 242 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.100 of grew into that. So the fourth– well, I started 243 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.539 the business in 99 with two other co-founders. And David 244 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:40.600 came on later. But the three of us initially were 245 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.700 located in Chicago, right? And there was a fourth employee, 246 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:45.980 there was another employee, so we actually had four people 247 00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:50.259 all located in Chicago. But the fifth person, or the 248 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:52.379 first programmer, I should say, that we ever hired was David. 249 00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:56.730 And David just happened to live in Denmark, in Copenhagen, Denmark. 250 00:11:57.409 --> 00:11:59.519 And I just didn't think... there's going to be a 251 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:02.360 big deal. Like we, we met via email. We met online. 252 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:04.929 We met via email. We talked back and forth via email. 253 00:12:05.529 --> 00:12:08.269 We talked back, back and forth versus, or like on 254 00:12:08.289 --> 00:12:10.509 some instant messaging platform. I think it was AOL at 255 00:12:10.529 --> 00:12:12.889 the time, AOL instant messenger or something like that. And 256 00:12:12.929 --> 00:12:14.700 we just sort of like, this works like this, this 257 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:16.419 is fine. We can work this way. There was never 258 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:18.460 a question like, well, you have to move to Chicago 259 00:12:18.620 --> 00:12:21.399 or whatever. It just, He eventually did move to Chicago, 260 00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:23.929 but he doesn't live in Chicago anymore. It doesn't matter 261 00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:26.509 where he lives. Like we just work remotely. And so 262 00:12:26.549 --> 00:12:28.590 he was the first example that the next program we 263 00:12:28.629 --> 00:12:32.309 hired after that was in Utah. And then we just 264 00:12:32.549 --> 00:12:34.970 started doing that and just kind of didn't really think 265 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:37.049 about remote versus local, just where can we find the 266 00:12:37.100 --> 00:12:39.419 best people that are the right people for us? And 267 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:40.820 it turned out some of them were local and some 268 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.240 of them were remote. And since we kind of grew 269 00:12:43.299 --> 00:12:46.000 up with this as a company, essentially, like our fifth 270 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.580 person was remote. And then after that, we quickly became 271 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:52.019 a primarily a majority remote company. It all just sort 272 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:55.120 of worked out. And so it wasn't a plan, but 273 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:58.350 it quickly became obvious that it was a good path 274 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:01.409 to take. And so that's kind of how that whole 275 00:13:01.429 --> 00:13:01.929 thing happened. 276 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:04.850 You've written in your book about the facts. 277 00:13:05.110 --> 00:13:07.289 So I'm going to bounce back and forth between thoughts 278 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:09.129 as well as notes I've taken from your book, your 279 00:13:09.149 --> 00:13:11.809 most recent book, which is titled It Doesn't Have to 280 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:12.750 Be Crazy at Work. 281 00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:15.490 You guys have great book titles, by the way. Thank you. 282 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.740 So you've written that you don't have plans, no plans, 283 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:21.700 no five, three, or even one-year plan. 284 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:22.679 You make it up as you go. 285 00:13:23.539 --> 00:13:29.220 So again, why is this optimal for you and– Why 286 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:33.769 could this be optimal for someone

who is currently working 287 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:38.549 as a mid-level manager in a big company that happens 288 00:13:38.570 --> 00:13:39.490 to be a lot of the people who. 289 00:13:39.429 --> 00:13:40.029 Listen to this show? 290 00:13:40.899 --> 00:13:44.320 Yeah, that's a good question, too, obviously, because I think 291 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.490 your first point is important, which is like. What I'm 292 00:13:47.549 --> 00:13:49.629 sharing with you today is what works for us. Now, 293 00:13:49.870 --> 00:13:51.350 I believe a lot of these things could work for 294 00:13:51.370 --> 00:13:54.370 other people too, but primarily we're sharing what's worked for us. 295 00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:57.080 And everyone's different, everyone's unique, and everyone's got a different 296 00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:59.379 setup and the whole thing. But for us, what we found, 297 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:01.539 and I do believe this to be true, by the way, 298 00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:03.600 in general, but for us what we found is that 299 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:08.730 planning is simply guessing. And that's okay as long as 300 00:14:08.769 --> 00:14:12.909 you recognize that that's the case. And to decide what 301 00:14:13.409 --> 00:14:15.269 you're going to do over the next five years based 302 00:14:15.330 --> 00:14:21.179 on a guess is feels a little bit, perhaps, irrational 303 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.299 is the wrong way to put it, but perhaps isn't 304 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:25.679 the best idea, isn't the best way to think about 305 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:29.019 setting your course over the next five years based on 306 00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:31.240 a guess. Now, when people say based on a plan, 307 00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:33.120 then they feel more confident, but a plan is just 308 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:34.940 a guess. And so we just try to strip away 309 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:37.330 the official language and get down to what it really is. 310 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:39.269 We have no idea what's going to happen over the 311 00:14:39.309 --> 00:14:40.789 next five years. We don't know what's going to happen 312 00:14:40.809 --> 00:14:42.190 in the market. We don't know what's going to happen 313 00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:44.149 with competitors. We don't know what's going to happen with 314 00:14:44.169 --> 00:14:46.129 the economy. We don't know what's going to happen politically. 315 00:14:46.169 --> 00:14:47.750 We don't know what's going to happen with wars. You 316 00:14:47.789 --> 00:14:49.570 just don't know. There's so many things you don't know 317 00:14:50.049 --> 00:14:53.059 that have an enormous influence and impact on your own business, 318 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:56.500 you are out of control of most things. And so, 319 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.740 you know, for us, we just figure like, we have 320 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.159 an idea of where we're headed, like what direction are 321 00:15:01.179 --> 00:15:04.429 we roughly heading,

but we basically figure out what we're 322 00:15:04.450 --> 00:15:06.529 going to be working on over the, over the next 323 00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:09.070 six weeks, six weeks at a time. And that's kind 324 00:15:09.110 --> 00:15:10.970 of how we do it in a way. The reason 325 00:15:10.990 --> 00:15:13.169 why we think that's useful is because we're able to 326 00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:19.240 take current conditions into account and adjust accordingly. If you 327 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.269 plan out, one, three, or five years, you have to 328 00:15:23.350 --> 00:15:25.990 know current conditions are going to be different than what 329 00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:28.320 you expected because there's no way to predict what's going 330 00:15:28.340 --> 00:15:30.539 to happen down the road. And so by, you know, 331 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:33.460 by planning that far out, you're basically saying current conditions 332 00:15:33.500 --> 00:15:36.179 don't matter because we're going in this, we're doing this 333 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.970 thing that we decided to do five years ago. I'd 334 00:15:38.990 --> 00:15:41.230 much rather say we have a general sense of where 335 00:15:41.269 --> 00:15:45.610 we're headed directionally, big picture stuff, maybe, But as far 336 00:15:45.649 --> 00:15:47.889 as choosing what to do, we're going to choose what 337 00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.909 to do, what we do as we go six weeks 338 00:15:50.929 --> 00:15:53.190 at a time so we can always adjust and never 339 00:15:53.230 --> 00:15:56.480 get too far off course. I think that's the most 340 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.480 realistic way actually to work. Now, to get your other point, 341 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:02.220 which is about like what about a mid-level manager at 342 00:16:02.259 --> 00:16:04.700 a large company? You know, one of the things that's 343 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.320 different about us is that we try to make sure 344 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:08.639 that we stay small for good reason and that we 345 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.049 don't have a lot of interdependencies inside the company. which 346 00:16:12.110 --> 00:16:16.279 means that each group, each little team can function essentially 347 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.519 independently and not have to wait on this other group 348 00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:20.139 to do something for them or this other group to 349 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:21.990 do something for them or this other department to do 350 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:24.450 something for them. Not always true, but most of the 351 00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:27.549 time teams can work independently at Basecamp. In a lot 352 00:16:27.570 --> 00:16:31.929 of large organizations, teams are very intertwined and interdependent, which 353 00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:34.330 means one can't move without the other. And if one moves, 354 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:37.000 it moves everyone else, which is why it becomes much 355 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.279 harder not to work with

a longer term plan because 356 00:16:40.299 --> 00:16:42.620 you need to coordinate a lot of different groups. So 357 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.679 it is harder to do this at big companies. But 358 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.299 the thing I always come back to is like, how 359 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:51.799 well do you think your system works? Like, you know, 360 00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:54.509 are you... If you talk to a lot of mid-level 361 00:16:54.549 --> 00:16:57.049 managers and people at large companies, they would say things 362 00:16:57.090 --> 00:17:00.450 are horribly inefficient here. Things don't work as planned. Things 363 00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:03.039 seem to go on forever. Everyone seems to be working 364 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.240 their ass off. They're really stressed out. We're working long hours. 365 00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:10.420 Things aren't shipping on time. Things are late. If that's 366 00:17:10.609 --> 00:17:14.569 the list of things... then that's not normal either. So 367 00:17:15.049 --> 00:17:17.589 I recognize that planning might be valuable in some respects, 368 00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:19.130 but in many cases, it might be the cause of 369 00:17:19.150 --> 00:17:21.049 some of these problems. So I would just encourage people 370 00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:24.099 to peel back at least one layer and go, instead 371 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.619 of making a five-year plan, maybe we'll just do three. 372 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:28.660 Or if we're doing three, maybe we can do one. 373 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:30.680 Or if we're doing one, maybe we can do six months. 374 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.460 Can you step back one level and just don't go 375 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.430 out so far? And that's like These are these little 376 00:17:37.470 --> 00:17:41.670 steps you can take to maybe possibly make some progress 377 00:17:41.769 --> 00:17:43.430 and change the way you're working because a lot of 378 00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:45.730 people are just simply not working well and they know it, 379 00:17:46.190 --> 00:17:47.680 but they think there's only one way to do it, 380 00:17:47.710 --> 00:17:50.190 which is the traditional way, which is making long-term plans 381 00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:50.930 and sticking to them. 382 00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:55.730 It seems to dovetail with an article you wrote. I 383 00:17:55.769 --> 00:17:58.049 believe Jeff Bezos, did he come to your office and 384 00:17:58.109 --> 00:18:01.789 speak at one point? And he said people who were 385 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:03.730 right a lot of the time were people who were 386 00:18:03.849 --> 00:18:07.730 often changed their mind. It doesn't think consistency of thought 387 00:18:07.789 --> 00:18:11.430 is a particularly positive trait. It's perfectly healthy, encouraged even 388 00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.559 to have an idea tomorrow that contradicted your idea today. 389 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.720 Is that part of the not really planning further farther 390

00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.400 out than six weeks type mentality? 391 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.220 It is. 392 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:22.880 I mean. 393 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.329 On any given day, I change my mind. I disagree 394 00:18:27.369 --> 00:18:30.549 with myself. The answer I just gave you, I probably 395 00:18:30.569 --> 00:18:34.170 could disagree with that too. You just kind of have to. 396 00:18:34.210 --> 00:18:35.710 You have to be able to play multiple sides of 397 00:18:35.769 --> 00:18:39.730 something and see the whole picture and change and take 398 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:41.170 different points of view and the whole thing. I think 399 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:46.059 it's really valuable and important. By working in these six-week cycles, 400 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:48.460 which is what we call them, we're giving ourselves permission 401 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.089 to change and After six weeks. You need to commit 402 00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:53.950 to something. You don't want to change every day because 403 00:18:53.970 --> 00:18:55.599 then you're not going to make any progress. But six 404 00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:59.299 weeks is enough time to see something through and then 405 00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:03.279 decide what we want to do next. It's also, the 406 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:04.980 other thing that's nice about six weeks is that if 407 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:07.740 you're working on something you don't like, it's almost over 408 00:19:07.779 --> 00:19:10.910 before it started, which is really important because one of 409 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:14.240 the worst things for morale in a business is is 410 00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:16.319 working on something for a long period of time that 411 00:19:16.339 --> 00:19:19.400 you don't like. And that's that, that thing will never end. 412 00:19:19.619 --> 00:19:21.319 It's like, I don't know when this thing's going to end. 413 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:23.309 It could, it could last six months. It could last 414 00:19:23.369 --> 00:19:26.630 three years. It could last five years. Who knows? And 415 00:19:26.650 --> 00:19:28.549 I don't like it. So I might be stuck on 416 00:19:28.569 --> 00:19:31.630 this for quote forever, essentially. I mean, of course it's 417 00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.069 not forever, forever, but it might feel like that. And 418 00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:36.910 at base camp, if you're, if you're working on something 419 00:19:36.930 --> 00:19:39.190 you don't like, or cause look, not, not all work 420 00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:43.160 is wonderful. There's, there's, maintenance projects there's bug fixes there's 421 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:46.960 stuff that just isn't isn't glamorous let's say but hey 422 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:51.180 it's only six weeks max so you can do that. 423 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.549 And you know it's almost over. And that's a really 424 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:56.369 liberating way to look at work, which is I'm not 425 00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:58.109 going to be stuck on something forever that I don't 426 00:19:58.150 --> 00:20:00.710 like doing. That's how you lose morale. That's how you 427 00:20:00.730 --> 00:20:04.960 lose people. That's how you wreck teams. And so six 428 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:08.130 weeks is sort of like a release valve for us, essentially. 429 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:10.509 It lets us sort of blow off some steam, stop. 430 00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:12.670 And we also, between the six-week cycles, we take two 431 00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:15.859 weeks off, not off of work, of course, but like 432 00:20:15.980 --> 00:20:18.779 off of planned, structured work. So during those two weeks... 433 00:20:19.089 --> 00:20:20.769 we call it like a cool down. People can sort 434 00:20:20.809 --> 00:20:23.710 of roam around the business and fix little things they 435 00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:25.930 want or kick off little mini projects of things that 436 00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:28.089 have been in there on their mind or fix some 437 00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:29.890 other issues that have been going on that they haven't 438 00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:32.109 had a chance to do. So we have these six weeks, 439 00:20:32.230 --> 00:20:34.640 two weeks break, then six weeks, two weeks break, six weeks, 440 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.500 two weeks break. And that's sort of how we, how 441 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:38.299 we move forward. And we're always able to adjust that way. 442 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.400 And it works out really well for us. 443 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.039 Let's talk about goal setting. 444 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:45.140 I know this is a topic that you, uh, I 445 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:48.960 write about a lot and I'm fascinated by this particularly 446 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.009 in my own work of working to build a business. 447 00:20:55.309 --> 00:20:58.150 In fact, actually, I will just leave it that wide 448 00:20:58.210 --> 00:21:00.430 open because I want to hear you kind of espouse 449 00:21:00.470 --> 00:21:01.940 your thoughts on. 450 00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:05.279 The anti-goal mindset. 451 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:11.839 Yeah. Here's my issue with goals. Similar to plans, they're 452 00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:15.460 made up. So at some point you make up a goal. 453 00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:19.200 We want to get to, in the business context, have 454 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:21.200 a company. We want to get to do our first 455 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.849 million or first 10 million or first 100 million. We 456 00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:28.230 want to get 1,000 customers or 10,000 customers. They're always 457 00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:32.789 round numbers, which means there's nothing about them that's true. 458 00:21:32.829 --> 00:21:33.789 They're just guesses. 459 00:21:34.099 --> 00:21:34.490 It's easy. 460 00:21:34.490 --> 00:21:37.640 10,000. Let's do 10,000. It's not like let's do 942. 461 00:21:38.710 --> 00:21:41.349 It's a thousand or whatever it might be. And

that 462 00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:44.470 right there should set you up to go, hmm, like 463 00:21:44.849 --> 00:21:47.029 this is just a made up number. It's a convenient 464 00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:49.069 made up number. And if I don't hit it, I'm 465 00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:51.309 going to be disappointed. Like, why would I want to 466 00:21:51.329 --> 00:21:54.099 be disappointed by something that I just made up that 467 00:21:54.150 --> 00:21:56.859 doesn't really have a basis in reality? Now, in some cases, 468 00:21:57.059 --> 00:21:58.619 there might be some goals that do have a basis 469 00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:01.339 in reality. Most of them do not. Most of them 470 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:06.420 are just targets that people set out. And what ends 471 00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:09.180 up happening is you either hit it And then you 472 00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:12.099 set another one or you don't hit it and then 473 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:17.369 you're disappointed or other people are disappointed. And now the 474 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.190 thing is, is that if you're way off the mark, 475 00:22:22.650 --> 00:22:25.089 it's in some ways not that disappointing because you're like 476 00:22:25.150 --> 00:22:27.650 way off the mark. But what's sort of difficult to 477 00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:29.430 deal with is that if you're close but you didn't 478 00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:32.609 hit it, then you start to feel bad. For example, 479 00:22:32.829 --> 00:22:34.849 and I've talked about this in the past, like I 480 00:22:34.910 --> 00:22:37.250 realized this one day when I was just running. I 481 00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:40.279 jog a lot. And there was a moment like in 482 00:22:40.299 --> 00:22:41.539 the past where I'm like, I want to run just 483 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:43.079 like a six-minute mile. It would be nice to run 484 00:22:43.099 --> 00:22:45.460 a six-minute mile. Maybe I was running like seven-minute miles 485 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:46.859 or something or seven and a half. I don't even 486 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.019 know what it was. But like I like to run 487 00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:50.720 a six. And you go out for a run and 488 00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:52.430 you're all pumped up and you want to get your 489 00:22:52.450 --> 00:22:55.569 six-minute mile. And you end up running a 6.04, which 490 00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:58.529 is not a six-minute mile. You're four seconds short. Now, 491 00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:01.549 if I had a goal set for six minutes– you 492 00:23:01.569 --> 00:23:03.269 could probably be pretty sure that I would be a 493 00:23:03.269 --> 00:23:05.670 little bit upset by not hitting that goal. I was 494 00:23:05.750 --> 00:23:08.769 so close, but I didn't get there. Now, it could 495 00:23:08.789 --> 00:23:11.089 be motivation to do it next time, certainly, but I 496 00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:12.849 might next time I might make a 603 or 602, 497 00:23:12.829 --> 00:23:15.329 or maybe I'll never get to six because six is 498 00:23:15.349 --> 00:23:17.210 just a round number I pick. Maybe I'll never get there. 499 00:23:17.230 --> 00:23:19.589 Maybe I'm not capable of that. The thing is, is 500 00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:22.250 that asking if I hit the goal to me is 501 00:23:22.269 --> 00:23:24.589 the wrong question. The right question is like, did I 502 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:27.819 enjoy the run? Did I get some fresh air? Did 503 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.079 I move my body? Did I pump my heart? Like, 504 00:23:30.910 --> 00:23:32.450 Did I get my pulse up or whatever the other 505 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:34.349 things that are sort of interesting about it? Did I 506 00:23:34.509 --> 00:23:36.490 get to run through the woods or whatever it might be? 507 00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:39.220 Did I take a break from work? Those would all 508 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:44.779 be yeses. But the goal would be no. And why 509 00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:49.289 should I feel like my satisfaction hinges on this goal 510 00:23:49.349 --> 00:23:52.089 that I made up versus how I actually felt about 511 00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:54.660 the run itself? And so that's kind of how we 512 00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:57.660 think about work, which is that we don't set revenue 513 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:00.440 targets or profitability targets other than being profitable. We don't 514 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.009 set growth targets. We just do the best work we can. 515 00:24:04.069 --> 00:24:05.150 Just like when I go out for a run, I 516 00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:06.769 want to run the best I can. I should be 517 00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:08.670 happy with the best I can. That doesn't mean I 518 00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:11.150 shouldn't try hard. We try hard. It doesn't mean we 519 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:12.910 shouldn't try to get better. We try to get better. 520 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:14.960 We want to do the best we can, but I 521 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.660 don't need to set out an artificial target to try 522 00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:20.670 and get there. And set myself up for possible disappointment 523 00:24:21.049 --> 00:24:23.609 or hitting it and then just setting another one and 524 00:24:23.630 --> 00:24:26.500 just setting another one and be on this perpetual motion 525 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.000 machine of always just setting new goals. Like how about 526 00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:32.799 just do the best you can? Like I want to 527 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:34.980 just be in a mindset where I ask people for 528 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.180 their best work. They give me their best work. They 529 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:40.210 give themselves their best work. And that's what we do. 530 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:43.579 versus measuring people up against numbers that I made up. 531 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.319 So that's my general rant on it. The other thing 532 00:24:46.339 --> 00:24:49.069 that's interesting about goals, someone else said this, this isn't 533 00:24:49.170 --> 00:24:51.200 my line of thinking,

but I totally agree with it, 534 00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:54.349 which is that one of the problems with goals is 535 00:24:54.369 --> 00:24:58.920 that you set them for the person you are, not 536 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.920 the person you're going to be when you actually achieve 537 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:03.819 that goal. So if you set yourself up for a 538 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.180 five-year goal, well, five years from now, you're going to 539 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.269 be a different person. And those things that you thought 540 00:25:08.309 --> 00:25:10.769 were important five years prior may not be important when 541 00:25:10.789 --> 00:25:13.589 you actually get there. And so you're a different person 542 00:25:13.609 --> 00:25:15.509 all the time. Think about yourself five years ago or 543 00:25:15.509 --> 00:25:18.849 10 years ago. I'm sure there's some stuff you're embarrassed 544 00:25:18.910 --> 00:25:21.009 about about yourself, or there's some stuff maybe you're proud 545 00:25:21.029 --> 00:25:23.549 of yourself. There's things that I did 10 years ago, 546 00:25:23.569 --> 00:25:25.450 I'm like, I would never do that again, or whatever 547 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:29.180 it would be. I don't want to set myself up today, 548 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.539 and assume that five years from now, or 10 years 549 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:34.089 from now, I'm going to want the same things. And 550 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:35.970 so that's one of the problems with long term goals, 551 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:37.809 in my opinion, is that you set these things up, 552 00:25:38.450 --> 00:25:39.990 but you don't take into account what you're going to 553 00:25:40.049 --> 00:25:43.569 want when you get there. So anyway, that's my general rant. 554 00:25:43.650 --> 00:25:45.779 And I'm happy to follow up on any of those details. 555 00:25:45.910 --> 00:25:50.099 Well, I think the question, I have multiple questions on 556 00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:54.380 that one is, you've built something at your company as 557 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:57.380 the leader of the company. And so there may be 558 00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.319 people who are working out or driving in their car 559 00:25:59.380 --> 00:26:01.920 now thinking, you know, that sounds great. And maybe I'd 560 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.240 even want to go work at his company. I'd love 561 00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:07.130 to work at a place that, however, I'm currently working 562 00:26:07.170 --> 00:26:10.289 at a pretty good company. I like my job. This 563 00:26:10.329 --> 00:26:15.170 just doesn't realistic. Do you think that your philosophy on 564 00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:18.829 goal setting, it could be implemented anywhere? 565 00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:24.180 I do think it's realistic. Here's the thing. There are 566 00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:26.259 different kinds of goals, obviously. For example, if you want 567 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.140 to get a promotion, that could be a totally fair 568 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.099 goal or you want to get a raise. Those are 569 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:36.470 fair goals to have. But those are more like achievements 570 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:39.809 and that you want to, of course, work to be better. 571 00:26:40.730 --> 00:26:43.390 At your job, you want to demonstrate a mastery, perhaps 572 00:26:43.450 --> 00:26:46.150 of mastery is the wrong word. Mastery is like takes 573 00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:48.539 a whole lifetime and we rarely get there. But like 574 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.539 you want to you want to show your boss or 575 00:26:51.579 --> 00:26:54.200 your manager that you're improving on certain dimensions that are 576 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:57.710 important to the company are important to you. So that's 577 00:26:57.750 --> 00:27:01.849 sort of an achievement you're after. And I'm, of course, 578 00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:03.809 okay with that. You want to learn something new. You 579 00:27:03.829 --> 00:27:06.579 could say that's a goal to learn something new. And 580 00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:09.059 that's fine, too. What I'm talking about when I get 581 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:11.980 to goals in terms of business goals are these specific 582 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:17.670 numbers that companies tend to set. Like, we need to grow... 583 00:27:17.230 --> 00:27:23.150 28% next year or else. Or we need to sign 584 00:27:23.190 --> 00:27:28.490 up our 100,000th customer or else. Those types of things 585 00:27:28.569 --> 00:27:32.089 to me are unhealthy compared to things that are more 586 00:27:32.150 --> 00:27:36.619 like achievement driven for your own personal growth. I believe 587 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.529 in working to get better at things. And in some cases, 588 00:27:40.650 --> 00:27:42.910 you get better at things because when you get better 589 00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:44.450 at something, you might get paid more, you might have 590 00:27:44.470 --> 00:27:47.650 more responsibility. Those things are all totally legit and reasonable 591 00:27:47.670 --> 00:27:51.180 things in my eyes, of course, including with our own employees. 592 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.539 We set out some things that we would like people 593 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:57.779 to get better at, but we don't lay them out 594 00:27:57.819 --> 00:27:59.779 in terms of a specific goal. 595 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:02.500 Like hit this number of revenue or whatever it may be. 596 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.200 Are you guys beholden to any shareholders or is it 597 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.799 you and DHH own it all? Because I think some 598 00:28:08.819 --> 00:28:11.430 people have to Give a quarterly business review, and I 599 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:13.759 know I live in this world, and part of that 600 00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:17.299 is making sure you're on track because then they have 601 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.299 to take up the chain and report to the board 602 00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:22.900 or whoever it may be.

And if they miss a quarter, 603 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.329 it is really– like we did some crazy things in 604 00:28:25.369 --> 00:28:27.690 corporate America. I remember when a quarter looked like it 605 00:28:27.750 --> 00:28:32.390 could be bad, and it always just didn't feel great. 606 00:28:35.009 --> 00:28:37.089 to be part of that machine. But a lot of 607 00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:39.500 people listening are dealing with that right now. And so 608 00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:42.440 I think, how does it work at your business? 609 00:28:43.339 --> 00:28:45.119 Yeah, by the way, I think that's a great point. 610 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:47.099 And I actually want to expand on that for a 611 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:52.880 second because you can tell when companies are goal-driven in 612 00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:54.980 a bad way. So for example, I just tried to 613 00:28:55.049 --> 00:28:58.930 cancel a satellite radio service. I guess there's only one 614 00:28:58.950 --> 00:29:00.869 satellite radio company, so I'll say the name. So Sirius. 615 00:29:00.910 --> 00:29:03.130 I tried to cancel Sirius recently. And it was a 616 00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:07.980 major hassle because they have an entire department, retention department 617 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.240 built to prevent people essentially from canceling or talking them 618 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:13.720 out of canceling or offering them other offers to prevent 619 00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.380 them from canceling. I just want it done. I don't 620 00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:18.930 listen to it anymore. I don't want it anymore. And 621 00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:20.890 I had to jump through an enormous amount of hoops 622 00:29:21.390 --> 00:29:25.599 to cancel. Now, That's because these companies don't want to 623 00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:28.759 lose customers, which I understand, but also because there's numbers 624 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.400 that they're asked to hit, and they probably have a 625 00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:34.700 retention goal and this whole thing. And so companies begin 626 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.529 to focus on these numbers and stop focusing on their customers, 627 00:29:37.849 --> 00:29:40.180 what it's like. Even losing a customer should be a 628 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:42.880 fair experience for the person who's leaving. Like it should 629 00:29:42.900 --> 00:29:44.829 be a good experience. It shouldn't burn bridges. Like I 630 00:29:44.849 --> 00:29:47.009 don't want to sign up for Sirius anymore after that. 631 00:29:47.650 --> 00:29:48.890 Like I don't want to. And by the way, they 632 00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:51.609 make signing up really easy and they make canceling really hard. 633 00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:55.700 This happens when companies have targets and goals that they're 634 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:59.230 trying to hit. And you end up tossing out ethics. 635 00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:01.230 You end up tossing out the customer experience. You end 636 00:30:01.250 --> 00:30:02.950 up throwing a lot of other things away just so 637 00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:06.170 you can hit that number. So to your point, I 638 00:30:06.230 --> 00:30:09.009 know corporate America is filled, I mean, especially if you're 639 00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:11.910 a public company or you have shareholders that you have 640 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:15.490 to deliver for, people are trying to hit numbers. And 641 00:30:15.529 --> 00:30:17.420 if they don't hit numbers, it's funny. If they're a 642 00:30:17.410 --> 00:30:20.259 penny off in earnings or something like that, it can 643 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:23.630 cost billions of dollars. I just don't want to live– 644 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:25.420 I personally don't want to live in that world and 645 00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:27.299 I've chosen not to live in that world. And there's 646 00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.200 a lot of companies out there who don't run that way. 647 00:30:29.869 --> 00:30:33.170 Smaller private companies or larger private companies, they don't run 648 00:30:33.210 --> 00:30:36.329 that way. Companies that have been bootstrapped versus taking a 649 00:30:36.369 --> 00:30:39.109 bunch of outside money with expectations of growth and selling 650 00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:41.730 or mergers or acquisitions or whatever, they don't run that way. 651 00:30:41.809 --> 00:30:45.019 So all this for me at least is a conscious choice. 652 00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:48.529 I can't of course– Speak to the situation that someone 653 00:30:48.569 --> 00:30:51.200 finds themselves in where they're stuck in a job, where 654 00:30:51.220 --> 00:30:54.779 their boss is demanding certain sales quota or whatever, and 655 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:56.299 they got to hit it or they get fired. I 656 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:01.539 can understand how difficult that situation must be. I don't 657 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.440 want to put any of my employees in that situation. 658 00:31:03.950 --> 00:31:05.529 I don't want to have to live under those rules. 659 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:07.190 And I don't want any of my employees to have 660 00:31:07.210 --> 00:31:08.670 to live under any rules that I don't have to 661 00:31:08.710 --> 00:31:12.539 live under. So we just have decided to sidestep that 662 00:31:12.579 --> 00:31:14.799 whole thing and do it a different way. So what 663 00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:18.200 I'm saying here may not directly apply to someone who's 664 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.440 stuck in a situation where they have no power whatsoever. 665 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:23.480 Over the situation, but at least I think what's important 666 00:31:23.509 --> 00:31:26.309 is to hear that there are alternatives to running a 667 00:31:26.329 --> 00:31:28.690 business You don't have to run it on the quota system. 668 00:31:28.710 --> 00:31:30.569 You don't have to run it on a goal-based financial 669 00:31:30.609 --> 00:31:32.250 system You don't have to run it on we have 670 00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:34.089 to

grow X percent this year because we did it 671 00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.049 last year now if we grow less lot next year 672 00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:39.269 than we did last year like things are going to 673 00:31:39.309 --> 00:31:41.730 hell like there are other ways to do this and 674 00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:43.950 at the very least someone who's listening who can't do 675 00:31:44.019 --> 00:31:46.890 some of these things and Hopefully, they take solace in 676 00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:50.630 understanding that there are other places out there where work 677 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:53.109 does run a little bit differently and that there is 678 00:31:53.210 --> 00:31:56.509 hope if you're stuck and you don't like that kind 679 00:31:56.529 --> 00:31:59.950 of world. Other people, though, thrive in those situations. Some 680 00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:02.549 people love the quotas. They love the boiler room feel. 681 00:32:02.589 --> 00:32:05.730 They love the sales numbers. They love that stuff. And 682 00:32:05.750 --> 00:32:07.930 that's fine, too, of course. It's not me. It's not 683 00:32:08.029 --> 00:32:10.910 what I'm into. So I don't want to denigrate what 684 00:32:10.930 --> 00:32:13.380 they're into. It's just there are different perspectives out here. 685 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:14.799 And that's what I think is really important to share. 686 00:32:16.099 --> 00:32:18.089 I think, though, in order to do this, part of 687 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:22.490 it is you have to be really good, thoughtful, and 688 00:32:22.549 --> 00:32:27.369 intentional about who you choose to bring onto your team. 689 00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:29.910 I think that leads me to the next part that 690 00:32:29.990 --> 00:32:35.210 is applicable to anybody, especially a manager. My dad told 691 00:32:35.230 --> 00:32:37.539 me this from when I got my very first management job. 692 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:40.039 He said, look, the people that you are about to 693 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.519 hire and the ones that, unfortunately, you'll have to let 694 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:44.890 go from time to time, They're either going to make 695 00:32:44.930 --> 00:32:47.049 you rich and famous within this company or they will 696 00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:49.730 make you poor and unemployed because they'll get you fired. 697 00:32:49.890 --> 00:32:52.490 You have to get this right. Hold your standards high. 698 00:32:52.910 --> 00:32:56.829 Do it right. Take the necessary time. And I have 699 00:32:56.869 --> 00:32:58.849 to think that this. 700 00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:00.599 Has got to be part of your structure too. 701 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:05.740 When you are looking to make, let's say, regardless of skill, 702 00:33:05.779 --> 00:33:07.940 so take the skill of the particular role, if they're 703 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.220 an engineer or they're building something that way, that's just 704 00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:11.740 table stakes. 705 00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:12.519 You've got to have that. 706 00:33:13.089 --> 00:33:16.430 So let's look at just the quality or the characteristics 707 00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:19.730 in people. What do you look for in people to 708 00:33:19.789 --> 00:33:22.130 bring onto your team as far as the makeup of them? 709 00:33:22.910 --> 00:33:27.180 Yeah, great question. And you're right. Who you hire is 710 00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:32.279 everything here. So in no particular order, although actually I 711 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:34.140 will start with probably the most important thing. And like 712 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:36.680 you said, aside from being able to do the work, 713 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.220 that's table stakes. So you have to have the skills 714 00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:42.319 and whatever. Beyond that, Number one for us is you 715 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:44.940 have to be able to be a great writer. The 716 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:48.240 majority of our communication at Basecamp is written. This is 717 00:33:48.259 --> 00:33:51.660 primarily because we are a remote company, but also because 718 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.829 I think it's better to write than to speak oftentimes 719 00:33:55.509 --> 00:33:57.809 when you're trying to share ideas with people. So you 720 00:33:57.910 --> 00:33:59.549 have to be a good writer. And that comes through 721 00:33:59.569 --> 00:34:01.190 in the cover letter and it comes through in your 722 00:34:01.210 --> 00:34:03.490 communications with us when you're applying for a job. And 723 00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:06.130 we simply will not hire somebody who isn't a good 724 00:34:06.170 --> 00:34:08.869 writer or a great writer. A great is probably a stretch. 725 00:34:08.889 --> 00:34:11.150 You have to be a good, solid writer. You have 726 00:34:11.170 --> 00:34:12.570 to be able to communicate clearly. You have to be 727 00:34:12.590 --> 00:34:15.480 able to explain yourself well. This is a really important trait. 728 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.760 So we look for that. We also look for, and 729 00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.320 in fact, just to reiterate or to expand on that 730 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.849 for a second, when we hire, we look at the 731 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:28.130 cover letter first. We don't look at the resume. And 732 00:34:28.230 --> 00:34:32.130 if the cover letter isn't well written, isn't clear, isn't thoughtful, 733 00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:35.539 we don't even get to your resume. So like, or 734 00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:37.320 your CV or whatever people call it. So like it 735 00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:40.480 really comes down to the writing. That's, that's the gateway first. 736 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:42.320 So there's that. The other thing we look for is 737 00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:45.840 just a certain, and this is a subjective thing, but 738 00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:48.860 a certain quality of character. They have to be a 739 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:53.219 good person. Now that again, that, you know, everyone has 740 00:34:53.239 -->

00:34:57.389 their own rules there for what that might mean. We've, 741 00:34:57.449 --> 00:34:59.070 we've done a good job over the years of finding 742 00:34:59.110 --> 00:35:01.070 people who we just, who we want to work with. 743 00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:04.369 That's kind of the way to think about this. Would 744 00:35:04.389 --> 00:35:06.070 you want to be friends with this person? Does this 745 00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:09.230 person share certain values that you share, that you carry, 746 00:35:09.550 --> 00:35:13.449 that you believe in? Would you want to spend your day, 747 00:35:13.570 --> 00:35:15.489 eight hours a day with this person and work on 748 00:35:15.530 --> 00:35:18.409 something together for a long time? If they think they're 749 00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:21.190 great and their ego is pounding and they're pounding their 750 00:35:21.210 --> 00:35:24.389 chest and their ego is showing, probably not. That probably 751 00:35:24.409 --> 00:35:25.809 wouldn't be the kind of person we'd like to work 752 00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:29.010 with here at Basecamp. In some companies, that's what everyone's 753 00:35:29.030 --> 00:35:31.650 looking for is a bunch of type A people people 754 00:35:31.789 --> 00:35:33.639 and there's nothing wrong with type a people at all 755 00:35:33.989 --> 00:35:36.539 but it depends on how they how they express that 756 00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:38.920 so if it's all about them then that's probably going 757 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:40.840 to be a problem if it's all about their ego 758 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:42.760 and it's all about them taking credit for things so 759 00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.679 during the interview process i'm always curious about finding out 760 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:47.809 like the things that they've done and how they speak 761 00:35:47.849 --> 00:35:50.070 about those things like are they trying to take credit 762 00:35:50.090 --> 00:35:53.909 for everything because very few things are done independently, like 763 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:56.969 truly independently. There's always other people involved. And so I 764 00:35:57.010 --> 00:35:59.630 like to hear we versus I, or, or, you know, 765 00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:02.130 my team versus, versus me, that kind of stuff. So 766 00:36:02.170 --> 00:36:04.090 I'm looking for those kinds of things there. They are 767 00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:07.760 not necessarily giveaways one way or the other, but I'm 768 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:09.360 just kind of looking for that kind of stuff. And 769 00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:11.559 I'm just looking for about how, you know, trying to 770 00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:14.539 understand how people live, what their, what their like philosophy 771 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.789 of life essentially is in a way. Um, So we're 772 00:36:17.809 --> 00:36:20.449 kind of looking at those sorts of things. I'm also very, 773 00:36:20.510 --> 00:36:23.579 very curious about how people take feedback and how they 774 00:36:23.619 --> 00:36:27.679 give feedback. Can they handle it? Some people cannot handle 775 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.760 negative feedback. So when I'm hiring designers, we always give 776 00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:33.719 them a project to do. Like the final, let's say 777 00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:36.199 the five finalists for the job, we give them a 778 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:40.840 project to do. And then we critique it. Even if 779 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.519 I like it, I critique it because I just want 780 00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:44.840 to see how they respond. Like how can they how 781 00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:47.880 do they handle a disagreement? How do they handle you 782 00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:49.559 know me saying like I'm not so sure about this 783 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.340 Can you explain why you did that or like this 784 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.400 doesn't feel right to me? Like I just want to 785 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.820 kind of understand what it would be like to work 786 00:36:55.860 --> 00:36:58.510 with them Because we're critiquing each other all the time 787 00:36:58.550 --> 00:37:00.170 here at base camp and trying to figure out the 788 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:02.710 best way to do something So how they take feedback 789 00:37:02.750 --> 00:37:05.269 how they give feedback is very important so I could 790 00:37:05.289 --> 00:37:07.090 go down the list But those are those are three things. 791 00:37:07.110 --> 00:37:09.969 So there's character there's writing and there's feedback and And there's, 792 00:37:09.989 --> 00:37:11.909 you know, ego, is it showing too much? Are they 793 00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:14.309 kind of selfless in a sense? Of course you want 794 00:37:14.329 --> 00:37:16.429 to have a strong sense of self, but also like, 795 00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:18.920 you don't want it to be all about you. Cause 796 00:37:18.940 --> 00:37:21.579 we just want to extrapolate here. We, when I hire somebody, 797 00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:23.980 I think about working with them for the next 10 years. 798 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.420 So it's not about a job. They're going to be 799 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.199 here for 16 months, 18 months, 24 months, and they're 800 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:33.090 out or eight months. It's like, this is a long-term commitment. 801 00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.769 So I'm really care about like, could I see myself 802 00:37:35.869 --> 00:37:37.449 working with this kind of person over a long period 803 00:37:37.469 --> 00:37:41.139 of time and And sort of kindness and fairness and 804 00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:43.500 a sense of like just trying to do great work 805 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:45.460 with other people is really important to me versus someone 806 00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.000 who I would get tired of very quickly if they're 807 00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:48.719 just trying to take credit for everything because that's not 808 00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:50.050 the way we run here at Basecamp. 809 00:37:51.510 -->

00:37:53.670 So part of the role of a leader is making 810 00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:56.730 hiring decisions, which we just talked about. And I'm curious 811 00:37:56.789 --> 00:38:01.150 about your growth here. When you initially started, you were 812 00:38:01.230 --> 00:38:04.869 basically a player, meaning you had to do all of 813 00:38:04.949 --> 00:38:10.030 the frontline work. As you grow and change and evolve, 814 00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:12.929 you grow from being a player to a player coach 815 00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:16.269 and then to mainly a coach, to use a sports analogy, 816 00:38:16.349 --> 00:38:20.809 where you make that shift from individual contributor to manager 817 00:38:20.949 --> 00:38:24.809 and leader. That's a transition that a lot of people 818 00:38:24.869 --> 00:38:28.389 listening either are in the middle of will go through 819 00:38:28.449 --> 00:38:31.650 or have gone through, but are struggling, um, or they 820 00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:33.530 just want to do better. What, what has been the 821 00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:36.860 key for you as you've thought about your evolution as 822 00:38:36.909 --> 00:38:41.239 a leader from eventually initially doing everything as the frontline 823 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.739 guy and now leading everything? 824 00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:47.949 It's so hard. Um, it's like one of the hardest 825 00:38:48.010 --> 00:38:51.639 things for me and I still struggle with it. Um, 826 00:38:52.579 --> 00:38:54.400 So when we were first starting the business, I mean, 827 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:56.300 I did all the website design and did all the 828 00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:59.219 writing and did all the HTML. I did all the CSS. 829 00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.760 I did like all the coding for the websites that 830 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:03.900 we built way back when. And I did that for 831 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:06.940 a long time up through when we built Basecamp. I 832 00:39:06.980 --> 00:39:08.760 did it and I did it through our other products 833 00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:11.179 that we built, Backpack and High Rising Campfire and Rightboard 834 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:14.389 and whatever. And then we had a version two of Basecamp. 835 00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:17.369 And that's when I began to not be as involved 836 00:39:17.389 --> 00:39:20.190 in the day-to-day building of the thing anymore. The company 837 00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:23.250 was embarking on our second major version of base camp 838 00:39:24.449 --> 00:39:30.090 which this is back in 2012 and I did a 839 00:39:30.090 --> 00:39:32.780 lot of the initial design work but I started to 840 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.079 not implement the work as much we had a larger 841 00:39:36.139 --> 00:39:38.599 team at the time and I realized like I can't 842 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:41.239 I can't do all these things it's not good for 843 00:39:41.300 --> 00:39:43.099 anybody for me to do all these things other people 844 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.860 have to grow into these roles and my my time 845 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.050 is better used strategically and thinking about the big picture, 846 00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:53.989 thinking about the whole system. And I began the transition, 847 00:39:54.010 --> 00:39:56.159 I think, back then in 2012. And it's been a 848 00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.599 struggle for a number of reasons. Number one, you're really 849 00:39:59.619 --> 00:40:01.480 good at something. You've gotten really good at something over 850 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:03.239 your career, and then you start to do less of it. 851 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:05.019 That's sort of hard because you have to do new 852 00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:07.980 things now. So there's learning new things that you're no 853 00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:11.400 good at. No one's like, well, I shouldn't say no one. 854 00:40:11.539 --> 00:40:15.000 Very few people are born excellent managers. Managing people is 855 00:40:15.019 --> 00:40:17.659 a really hard thing to do. And you kind of 856 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:19.519 have to, like anything, you have to practice. I mean, 857 00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:22.119 there's always virtuosos in every field. Like someone learns how 858 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:24.119 to play piano at age four and they're amazing at 859 00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:27.500 age five and like, whoa. But like just management is 860 00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:29.159 a skill too. And you have to develop your skills 861 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.280 over time. So you have to practice. So moving from 862 00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:34.059 an individual contributor into a management role, even though I 863 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.260 owned the company, I was always an individual contributor. Moving 864 00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:37.889 into the management role was just hard for me because 865 00:40:37.909 --> 00:40:40.329 I'd never really done that before. So that was hard. 866 00:40:40.829 --> 00:40:43.369 The thing I'm struggling with now is I actually want 867 00:40:43.389 --> 00:40:47.110 to get back into the Playing again as an individual 868 00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:52.570 contributor sometimes and my skills are rusty and it's embarrassing. Actually, 869 00:40:52.650 --> 00:40:55.090 I'm embarrassed in a sense because the things I used 870 00:40:55.110 --> 00:40:56.880 to be good at, I'm not good at anymore. I 871 00:40:56.909 --> 00:40:59.500 could get good at them again. You know, I can 872 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.179 learn them again. I still know the basics. I'm still 873 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.500 dangerous enough. I can do what I need to do, 874 00:41:04.539 --> 00:41:07.110 but I can't do everything I want to do. And 875 00:41:07.190 --> 00:41:08.429 I have to kind of get back into it. I 876 00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:10.250 need to have the time to get back into it again. 877 00:41:10.269 --> 00:41:11.710 I need to pick up a project to get back 878 00:41:11.750 --> 00:41:14.139 into it again. So for me, I feel like now 879

00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.599 I've become a pretty good manager of people. I think 880 00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:18.760 I've become a pretty good leader of a company. But 881 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:20.619 I kind of crave a little bit more of the 882 00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:23.960 day-to-day individual contributor stuff on little projects here and there. 883 00:41:23.980 --> 00:41:25.800 I don't want to like take anyone's work away from them. 884 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:27.070 But like little things here and there I want to 885 00:41:27.429 --> 00:41:29.550 tighten up or fix up or clean up. It just 886 00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:31.429 takes me longer now and I don't understand it as 887 00:41:31.469 --> 00:41:33.119 well as I used to. And that's been the struggle 888 00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:35.099 for me right now. So that's kind of where I'm 889 00:41:35.420 --> 00:41:38.679 at in my career, which is that I'm no longer 890 00:41:38.780 --> 00:41:40.400 good at things that I used to be good at. 891 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:43.409 I'm good at other things, but I still want to 892 00:41:43.489 --> 00:41:45.570 have those skills. And so I'm trying to figure out 893 00:41:45.590 --> 00:41:46.889 how to get back into that. It's just a little 894 00:41:46.929 --> 00:41:47.630 bit harder to do. 895 00:41:47.929 --> 00:41:50.130 What advice would you give to a person who's going 896 00:41:50.150 --> 00:41:52.829 through that process right now? Like maybe prep something that 897 00:41:52.869 --> 00:41:55.300 you learned. Say, oh, man, I wish I would have. 898 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.340 known this as I was going through. I know you 899 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:01.969 admit that you're still struggling at times with this, but 900 00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:03.989 is there a piece or two, and I'd imagine you 901 00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:06.730 meet with people regularly that ask your advice. 902 00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:07.449 What would you say to them? 903 00:42:07.889 --> 00:42:10.539 Well, I think If you want to stay good at something, 904 00:42:10.579 --> 00:42:13.960 you have to keep doing it, first of all. Otherwise, 905 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.760 your skills are going to atrophy, just like your muscles 906 00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:18.280 will atrophy. You don't use them, they start to go away. 907 00:42:18.429 --> 00:42:20.090 And your mind's the same way. All these things are 908 00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:22.170 the same way. So if you want to continue to 909 00:42:22.210 --> 00:42:23.829 be good at something, you can't just think that you 910 00:42:23.849 --> 00:42:25.469 used to be good at it and you'll remain good 911 00:42:25.510 --> 00:42:27.750 at it forever. You've got to keep your skills sharp. 912 00:42:28.329 --> 00:42:32.070 There's that. And then the other thing is that it's 913 00:42:32.110 --> 00:42:36.289 just like the harder thing, I think, is Just coming 914 00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:38.210 to terms with the fact that you can no longer 915 00:42:38.269 -->

00:42:41.110 do everything. As your company begins to grow, there are 916 00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:44.170 other responsibilities that need doing. And if you're the leader 917 00:42:44.210 --> 00:42:46.750 of the business, I've got to think strategically. I've got 918 00:42:46.769 --> 00:42:48.610 to think about new product launches. I've got to think 919 00:42:48.650 --> 00:42:51.730 about timing. I've got to think about press and publicity. 920 00:42:51.769 --> 00:42:54.429 I've got to think about other things. There's no shame 921 00:42:54.449 --> 00:42:57.050 in those things. I remember, though, I was talking to– 922 00:42:57.090 --> 00:42:59.380 or I wasn't talking. I was listening to Toby who 923 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.400 runs Shopify. He's a CEO over at Shopify. And he 924 00:43:02.420 --> 00:43:05.380 was talking about– he still codes here and there, kind 925 00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.920 of like I still design here and there. But mostly 926 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:12.090 his job is as CEO, which is strategic. And when 927 00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:14.610 he first started doing the more strategic work, he started 928 00:43:14.650 --> 00:43:17.090 thinking to himself like– what am I doing? Like, am 929 00:43:17.130 --> 00:43:19.349 I doing anything important? Like, does this stuff matter? Like 930 00:43:19.369 --> 00:43:21.250 I used to put code, make something. And at the 931 00:43:21.289 --> 00:43:23.530 end of every day, there's like something that I did 932 00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:27.599 that was so clear that moved something forward. Strategic work 933 00:43:27.659 --> 00:43:31.119 is more like long-term thinking and planning and considering and 934 00:43:31.139 --> 00:43:34.340 that kind of stuff. And like on a day-to-day basis, 935 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:37.159 you feel like you're not making as much progress. And 936 00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:39.250 so having to come to, coming to terms with that 937 00:43:39.309 --> 00:43:41.550 was also a challenging thing for him and for me. 938 00:43:41.949 --> 00:43:44.190 But eventually you realize that someone has to do this work. 939 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:47.099 And hopefully you're good at it and you enjoy doing it. 940 00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:48.559 And I do enjoy doing it, but it took me 941 00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:50.860 a while to feel like I was even being productive 942 00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:53.480 at all. Like it's so clear when I'm being productive, 943 00:43:53.500 --> 00:43:55.900 when I'm doing design work, because before I do it, 944 00:43:55.909 --> 00:43:58.309 there's nothing. And after I do it, there's something. But 945 00:43:58.329 --> 00:44:01.349 when you're talking about like CEO style, strategic work or 946 00:44:01.369 --> 00:44:04.210 thinking or that kind of thing, like it's a lot 947 00:44:04.250 --> 00:44:08.769 less concrete and coming from an individual contributor role into 948 00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:11.340 this kind of role, that's something that was, I think, 949 00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.079 more shocking, which is you feel like you're not sometimes 950 00:44:15.099 --> 00:44:17.960 you feel like you're not doing anything of substance. But 951 00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.449 of course, you are. You're just doing something that has 952 00:44:20.489 --> 00:44:23.389 a longer time frame. So you can't see it. And also, 953 00:44:23.449 --> 00:44:25.469 you have to make more important decisions in these decisions. 954 00:44:25.550 --> 00:44:27.710 Like a lot of people's jobs depend on the decisions 955 00:44:27.750 --> 00:44:29.889 you make. And you have to think about the gravity 956 00:44:29.909 --> 00:44:33.570 of this stuff. So anyway. fundamentally, I think if you 957 00:44:33.590 --> 00:44:35.050 want to stay good at something, you got to practice it. 958 00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:36.659 So you got to leave time for yourself to practice it. 959 00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:38.380 And if you don't do that, you cannot expect yourself 960 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.599 to be good at it. And it's also a bit harder, 961 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.739 much harder, I think, to pick up lost skills down 962 00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:45.800 the road than it is to just to put a 963 00:44:45.820 --> 00:44:47.409 little bit of extra time in as you go to 964 00:44:47.449 --> 00:44:49.949 maintain those skills. So I'd consider, I would encourage people 965 00:44:49.969 --> 00:44:51.710 to maintain their skills if they really like those skills. 966 00:44:52.889 --> 00:44:56.309 One of the areas that I find fascinating about your 967 00:44:56.349 --> 00:44:58.949 company is you have amazing benefits and And I'm going 968 00:44:58.969 --> 00:45:00.280 to list off a few of them and then ask 969 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.199 you a specific question about one in particular. So some 970 00:45:03.219 --> 00:45:05.239 of your benefits, these aren't all of them. Three-day weekends 971 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:09.179 all summer, 30-day paid sabbatical every three years, $ 1, 000 a 972 00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:13.969 year continuing education stipend for something outside of work, $ 2, 000 973 00:45:13.550 --> 00:45:17.050 a year charity match, monthly massage at a spa, $ 100 974 00:45:16.570 --> 00:45:20.130 a month fitness club membership. And one that I find interesting, 975 00:45:20.170 --> 00:45:23.750 instead of giving a cash bonus... you will pay, as 976 00:45:23.769 --> 00:45:25.010 long as you've been at the company for a year, 977 00:45:25.170 --> 00:45:28.239 pay each year for someone to go on vacation. Not 978 00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:29.860 only give them the time off, but actually pay for 979 00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:33.840 the vacation. Can you, one, hit that vacation one first? 980 00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.989 Because I think that's very rare. But then two, just 981 00:45:37.010 --> 00:45:39.730 your overall thought process around these incredible benefits. 982 00:45:40.670 --> 00:45:43.510 Sure. First, let me just say, for anyone who's

listening, 983 00:45:44.150 --> 00:45:47.349 we didn't offer all these all the time. So this 984 00:45:47.429 --> 00:45:50.739 is now... We're into the business 20 years. We've layered 985 00:45:50.780 --> 00:45:53.179 in these things over time. So we couldn't afford to 986 00:45:53.219 --> 00:45:55.059 do most of these things most of our existence, and 987 00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.920 we've been layering things in. So right now, I feel 988 00:45:56.940 --> 00:45:59.000 like we have an amazing benefits package, but we've been 989 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.860 at it for 20 years. So let's start with the 990 00:46:00.900 --> 00:46:04.800 vacation one. We used to give cash bonuses for a 991 00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:08.940 few years, and they were arbitrary because we don't have 992 00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:11.300 performance targets and numbers to hit and the whole thing. 993 00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:13.920 And we don't have people here who– we don't have salespeople. 994 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.750 So we don't have– any roles that are natural fit 995 00:46:17.789 --> 00:46:22.349 for bonuses based on performance. So we just kind of 996 00:46:22.449 --> 00:46:24.840 arbitrarily pick numbers based on like how we felt the 997 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.320 company did that year and how we felt a person 998 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.019 did that year. And it was kind of a disaster 999 00:46:30.059 --> 00:46:33.099 to be honest, because you give someone money, let's say, 1000 00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:34.579 I'm just going to make up round numbers here. You 1001 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:37.900 give someone $ 10, 000 bonus. Okay. And then the next year 1002 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.239 they get a $ 7, 000 bonus. Now on paper, it's like, well, that's, quote, 1003 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:44.699 free money, like that wasn't part of your salary. You 1004 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.059 should be excited to get more than we told you 1005 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.159 we'd pay you. But of course, it's less than you 1006 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:51.739 got the previous year. And all of a sudden, like 1007 00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:54.429 people are upset. And they're asking, why did I get 1008 00:46:54.469 --> 00:46:56.050 less this year than last year? And you kind of 1009 00:46:56.110 --> 00:46:58.110 explain and you do your best to explain, but it's 1010 00:46:58.190 --> 00:46:59.570 arbitrary at the end of the day. It's more of 1011 00:46:59.590 --> 00:47:02.469 a feeling. And we kind of created a situation where 1012 00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:05.170 like we were just making up numbers for people and 1013 00:47:05.750 --> 00:47:08.510 it was damaging, even though it was more money than 1014 00:47:08.530 --> 00:47:11.440 they were being paid. And so we decided to stop 1015 00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:13.690 doing the bonus thing and stop doing the cash bonus thing. 1016 00:47:13.710 --> 00:47:16.309 And instead we said, let's just, let's give people an 1017 00:47:16.329 --> 00:47:19.409 amazing experience, something they'll never forget. Now, if you give 1018 00:47:19.429 --> 00:47:22.369 someone a $ 4, 000 bonus, they're going to know that for 1019 00:47:22.409 --> 00:47:24.280 a few minutes, then they're going to spend it on 1020 00:47:24.340 --> 00:47:26.320 stuff and pay some bills off and pay some things, 1021 00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:28.940 which of course are important things. But five years from now, 1022 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:31.380 they're not going to remember that $ 4, 000. It's just like, 1023 00:47:31.460 --> 00:47:34.150 it's going to fade into their existence. If you give 1024 00:47:34.190 --> 00:47:36.869 somebody a trip and you send them to Tokyo for 1025 00:47:36.889 --> 00:47:39.340 a week or, you know, you don't send them somewhere, 1026 00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:41.599 but they choose a trip. Basically, what we do is 1027 00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:44.119 we set up a dozen or so amazing trips to 1028 00:47:44.139 --> 00:47:45.980 amazing places around the world and every employee gets to 1029 00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:47.969 choose one and we pay for it. All expenses paid. 1030 00:47:48.309 --> 00:47:49.869 We take care of setting it up, the whole thing. 1031 00:47:50.409 --> 00:47:53.369 So maybe you go to Morocco. Maybe you go to Tokyo. 1032 00:47:53.429 --> 00:47:57.329 Maybe you go to Montreal. Maybe you go to somewhere 1033 00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:00.650 in Brazil. Maybe you go– there's somewhere in Thailand, a 1034 00:48:00.929 --> 00:48:04.389 lot of amazing places that you can go or somewhere 1035 00:48:04.429 --> 00:48:07.400 in Europe, wherever it is. And that is a trip 1036 00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:09.679 that you may not have taken on your own. It's 1037 00:48:09.699 --> 00:48:11.820 a trip we're encouraging you to take. It's a trip 1038 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.239 that says like go see something interesting in the world. 1039 00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.480 Go get some more perspective and go enjoy yourself. 1040 00:48:16.539 --> 00:48:17.019 It's on us. 1041 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:20.110 And you're probably going to remember that trip. there's a 1042 00:48:20.130 --> 00:48:21.989 good likelihood you're going to remember that trip. Let's say 1043 00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:23.829 the trip costs five grand, which is about the budget 1044 00:48:23.849 --> 00:48:26.309 per person. You're going to remember that trip more than 1045 00:48:26.349 --> 00:48:29.789 you're going to remember $ 5, 000. And so we've been doing 1046 00:48:29.809 --> 00:48:31.550 this now for, I think it may be close to 1047 00:48:31.550 --> 00:48:34.010 10 years, perhaps maybe a little bit less than that. 1048 00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:37.179 Maybe seven years, we've been doing these, these annual trips 1049 00:48:37.900 --> 00:48:40.460 and they're big hit because people get to see something 1050 00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:42.440 in the world. They get to know their company wants 1051 00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:44.719 them to do something

outside of work. That's the other thing. 1052 00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:47.710 Like we want people to have reasonable lives outside of work. So, 1053 00:48:48.829 --> 00:48:50.280 here's one way for us to like shove you out 1054 00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:53.000 the door and say, go, please leave, go have some fun. 1055 00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:55.420 And we're going to support you on that. So that's 1056 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:57.280 been a big hit. And every year we come up 1057 00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:59.539 with a dozen or so different trips. And of course, 1058 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:01.320 if someone wants to go somewhere that's not on the list, 1059 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:04.449 we'll happily pay for that trip as well, up to 1060 00:49:04.489 --> 00:49:07.690 about $ 5, 000. So yeah. And as far as some of 1061 00:49:07.710 --> 00:49:09.489 the other ones, like charity matches, these are things that 1062 00:49:09.929 --> 00:49:12.809 employees recommended. So we didn't have a charity match for many, 1063 00:49:12.829 --> 00:49:16.170 many years. An employee said, hey, how about matching charities? 1064 00:49:16.250 --> 00:49:18.570 I give a lot. I love my company to be 1065 00:49:18.630 --> 00:49:22.059 behind me. That makes sense. So we do a $ 2, 000 1066 00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:23.659 charity match. Also, a lot of our benefits are based 1067 00:49:23.900 --> 00:49:27.440 on charity. improving people's lives at home versus at work. 1068 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:31.690 So many companies have benefits that really benefit the company 1069 00:49:31.730 --> 00:49:35.690 more than the employee. So for example, a company might 1070 00:49:36.030 --> 00:49:38.909 cook dinner for you at work, like free meals after 1071 00:49:38.949 --> 00:49:41.570 work or something. That's really designed to keep you at 1072 00:49:41.610 --> 00:49:43.929 the office longer. It's not really designed to give you 1073 00:49:43.949 --> 00:49:46.309 a free meal. It's like, no, don't leave. Don't go home. 1074 00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:50.469 And for us, we provide fresh fruits and vegetables for 1075 00:49:50.510 --> 00:49:54.429 people at home, not at work. So at home. So 1076 00:49:54.469 --> 00:49:58.309 we will pay for a CSA share, like a community-supported agriculture, 1077 00:49:58.329 --> 00:50:01.170 farmer's market share kind of thing for every employee. So 1078 00:50:01.409 --> 00:50:03.760 their family or themselves or whatever they have going on 1079 00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:07.880 at home, they have some fresh fruits and vegetables at home. 1080 00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:10.559 So they can cook something that's healthy. That's kind of 1081 00:50:10.579 --> 00:50:12.019 a nice thing to do. So a lot of our 1082 00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:15.500 benefits are based on the vacation one, the fruits and vegetables, 1083 00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:20.420 the continuing education stipend, which is about supporting people in 1084 00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:22.300 whatever endeavor they want to pick

up. So if you 1085 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.199 want to learn how to play guitar, we'll pay for that. 1086 00:50:24.300 --> 00:50:26.300 If you want to learn how to throw a pot 1087 00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:28.440 on a ceramic wheel, we'll pay for that. If you 1088 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:32.090 want to learn another language, we'll pay for that. These 1089 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:34.389 things don't have anything to do with work, but they 1090 00:50:34.429 --> 00:50:36.849 have things to do with supporting our employees and making 1091 00:50:36.869 --> 00:50:40.570 them more interesting people and saying, we want you to 1092 00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:43.659 do things outside of work. So that's sort of our 1093 00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:46.460 angle on benefits. They should really benefit the person and 1094 00:50:46.500 --> 00:50:48.969 not the company. Of course, At some level, they come 1095 00:50:49.010 --> 00:50:50.929 back to benefit the company because you have more interesting 1096 00:50:50.969 --> 00:50:52.590 people and you have people who are more relaxed and 1097 00:50:52.630 --> 00:50:55.769 more rested and have more perspective. But really, it's about 1098 00:50:55.789 --> 00:50:56.389 the people first. 1099 00:50:56.769 --> 00:50:57.610 Why do you guys do that? 1100 00:50:59.389 --> 00:51:01.929 It feels like the right thing to do. We care 1101 00:51:01.969 --> 00:51:05.179 about the people that are here. It's one of these 1102 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:09.119 things like coming back to way back to when I 1103 00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:12.039 started the business, I wanted to start a business that 1104 00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:15.269 I would want to work at. And a lot of 1105 00:51:15.289 --> 00:51:17.630 the decisions that we make are based on that notion. Like, 1106 00:51:18.030 --> 00:51:20.789 is this something we would want if we worked at 1107 00:51:20.829 --> 00:51:23.789 this company? And I would love my company to be 1108 00:51:23.829 --> 00:51:26.190 supportive of me if I'm donating to charity. I would 1109 00:51:26.210 --> 00:51:28.190 love my company to be supportive of me of having, 1110 00:51:28.210 --> 00:51:30.550 you know, fresh food at home. I love my company 1111 00:51:30.570 --> 00:51:32.659 to be supportive of me of encouraging me to go 1112 00:51:32.699 --> 00:51:34.320 see something interesting in the world that I might not 1113 00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:36.460 normally see on my own. If I want to learn 1114 00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.079 how to play guitar, it'd be great if my company 1115 00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:40.159 helped me out with that. Like, these are all things 1116 00:51:40.179 --> 00:51:44.380 that I think would be amazing things for a And 1117 00:51:44.420 --> 00:51:47.559 so that's kind of why we do it. And it's like, yeah, 1118 00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:49.940 you can look at retention numbers. Our retention numbers are 1119 00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.849 incredibly high. We pay really wonderful salaries as well. We 1120 00:51:53.889 --> 00:51:56.269 do all these things, but we do them because we 1121 00:51:56.309 --> 00:51:57.750 care about the people and there are things that we 1122 00:51:57.769 --> 00:52:01.210 would want for ourselves too. And they also, I think, 1123 00:52:01.650 --> 00:52:06.099 hopefully show that we're a company that cares about people 1124 00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:09.309 and we don't just pay lip service to it. We're 1125 00:52:09.329 --> 00:52:10.909 not just here to do your dry cleaning for you 1126 00:52:11.090 --> 00:52:13.050 or keep you at the office later. Those are, again, 1127 00:52:13.090 --> 00:52:15.590 things that keep you at work. I'm sorry, or cook 1128 00:52:15.610 --> 00:52:17.289 a meal for you at work. That's what keeps you 1129 00:52:17.309 --> 00:52:19.510 at work. We really want to support the people who 1130 00:52:19.530 --> 00:52:21.030 work for us. We think they're great people. And it's 1131 00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:22.550 also one of the wonderful things you can do as 1132 00:52:22.570 --> 00:52:25.630 a relatively smaller company with high margins. We have very 1133 00:52:25.670 --> 00:52:28.139 high margins. We're in the software business. We have 55, 1134 00:52:28.139 --> 00:52:30.469 56 people. We can afford to do some of these things. 1135 00:52:30.510 --> 00:52:33.010 If we had 400 or 500 people, we probably couldn't 1136 00:52:33.030 --> 00:52:35.960 afford to do all these things. So It's like, why not? 1137 00:52:36.099 --> 00:52:38.320 Why wouldn't we? Is almost kind of how we feel 1138 00:52:38.380 --> 00:52:40.260 about it, which I know like there's no end to that. 1139 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:42.849 And of course, there are ends to our benefits, but 1140 00:52:43.050 --> 00:52:44.329 it just feels like the right thing to do. And 1141 00:52:44.349 --> 00:52:46.190 that's kind of one of the things that we always 1142 00:52:46.230 --> 00:52:47.659 think about, like, does this feel like the right thing 1143 00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:48.940 to do or not? And if it does, then we'll 1144 00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:49.460 probably do it. 1145 00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:52.420 Yeah, there may be a person listening who actually runs 1146 00:52:52.460 --> 00:52:54.579 a business similar to your size or even runs a 1147 00:52:54.619 --> 00:52:57.829 team within a company that wants to implement some of 1148 00:52:57.869 --> 00:52:59.550 what you've done because it's the right thing to do. 1149 00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:02.909 It also, from a work perspective, does increase retention rates, 1150 00:53:02.969 --> 00:53:06.960 which leads to more profitability as a whole. But that's 1151 00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:10.969 the devil's advocate view is … maybe it works for him, 1152 00:53:11.210 --> 00:53:14.170 but they could be a lot more profitable and that 1153 00:53:14.210 --> 00:53:17.449 wouldn't work in my business. And so you guys have 1154 00:53:17.469 --> 00:53:21.630 made a choice to be less profitable, but have happier

1155 00:53:21.849 --> 00:53:23.550 and healthier employees. 1156 00:53:24.449 --> 00:53:29.650 Yeah. I mean, for example, the vacation thing is 5,000 bucks, 1157 00:53:29.690 --> 00:53:31.989 roughly 5,000 bucks per person. We have roughly 56 people 1158 00:53:32.010 --> 00:53:34.650 in the company. So that's a quarter million bucks a year, right? 1159 00:53:34.949 --> 00:53:37.590 We could have put that in our pocket instead. It 1160 00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:39.300 doesn't seem worth it to me. It seems worth it 1161 00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:40.900 to spend that kind of money. And here's the thing. 1162 00:53:41.739 --> 00:53:44.440 People are not the place to save money. People are 1163 00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:46.900 the place to spend money. This is at least my philosophy. 1164 00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:49.559 So we pay people the top of the market rate salaries, 1165 00:53:49.579 --> 00:53:52.119 top 10 percent in San Francisco market, which is we 1166 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:53.880 don't have anyone who lives in San Francisco, but we 1167 00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:56.760 still pay San Francisco rates. We pay all these amazing 1168 00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:59.340 benefits to people. And I just feel like if you're 1169 00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:02.739 going to skimp on anything, don't skimp on people. So, uh, pay, 1170 00:54:02.909 --> 00:54:06.130 pay for people, invest in people. Um, I see these 1171 00:54:06.150 --> 00:54:08.510 as investments in people and that's just our, our point 1172 00:54:08.530 --> 00:54:10.550 of view. So yeah, certainly we could, we could save 1173 00:54:10.590 --> 00:54:12.610 more money elsewhere, but I'd rather save that money on rent. 1174 00:54:13.090 --> 00:54:15.619 I'd rather save that money on not spending money on, 1175 00:54:15.750 --> 00:54:18.510 on advertising. I'd rather spend that money on or save 1176 00:54:18.530 --> 00:54:20.269 that money on not, you know, doing X, Y, and 1177 00:54:20.289 --> 00:54:23.909 Z versus trying to like save it on people. So 1178 00:54:23.969 --> 00:54:27.170 we invest in people and, um, Like, I think I 1179 00:54:27.190 --> 00:54:28.650 just tweeted something out a few days ago. I don't 1180 00:54:28.670 --> 00:54:30.550 remember the exact numbers. I could probably find the tweet. 1181 00:54:30.570 --> 00:54:33.750 But we have 56 people in the company. 33, I think, 1182 00:54:33.789 --> 00:54:35.340 was the number of which have been here for more 1183 00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:38.159 than five years. A number of them have been with 1184 00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:40.199 us for more than seven years. And I think there's 1185 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:41.739 10 people have been with us for more than 10 years. 1186 00:54:41.780 --> 00:54:45.260 These are current employees. It's very expensive to hire new people. 1187 00:54:45.909 --> 00:54:47.329 Every time you lose someone, you lose a lot of 1188 00:54:47.369 --> 00:54:50.260 institutional knowledge. Like if I'm going to take care of anyone, 1189

00:54:50.340 --> 00:54:52.179 I would take care of my people. Like why wouldn't 1190 00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:53.380 I want to do that? That's where I want to 1191 00:54:53.420 --> 00:54:55.400 spend my money. So anyway, that's our point of view. 1192 00:54:55.420 --> 00:54:57.960 And here's the thing. I want to say this too 1193 00:54:58.000 --> 00:54:59.840 because some people are going to say like I can't 1194 00:54:59.880 --> 00:55:01.739 afford to do– I agree with you but I can't 1195 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:03.179 afford to do these things. And I would say we 1196 00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:05.099 couldn't afford to do these things for a long time either. 1197 00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:08.500 Figure out the things that matter and try and do 1198 00:55:08.539 --> 00:55:11.320 those things first. But one of the most valuable things 1199 00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:14.710 you can give anybody at work is their time. So 1200 00:55:15.030 --> 00:55:18.110 a lot of companies, a lot of people have basically, 1201 00:55:18.260 --> 00:55:20.760 or a lot of companies have taken their employees' time 1202 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.300 away from them. People are stuck in jobs where they 1203 00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:25.460 have no time to get real meaningful work done, which 1204 00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:26.960 is why they have to work nights and they have 1205 00:55:26.980 --> 00:55:28.500 to work weekends and they have to work early in 1206 00:55:28.539 --> 00:55:30.099 the morning or they have to work on the commute. 1207 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:32.820 Because when they get to work, you can't do work 1208 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:36.880 at work. You're being beat up by meetings and conference 1209 00:55:36.900 --> 00:55:39.340 calls and being pulled away and distractions left and right. 1210 00:55:39.739 --> 00:55:41.940 And no one has time to themselves anymore. So something 1211 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.230 you can give people that costs you nothing. And gives 1212 00:55:45.269 --> 00:55:47.590 them everything is giving them their time back, letting them 1213 00:55:47.630 --> 00:55:50.469 have more time during the day to themselves, making sure 1214 00:55:50.489 --> 00:55:52.590 everyone has a full eight hour day is our goal 1215 00:55:52.789 --> 00:55:54.530 at Basecamp. If we're talking about goals, there is a 1216 00:55:54.550 --> 00:55:56.769 goal there. There's a number, a full eight hour day 1217 00:55:56.789 --> 00:55:59.429 to themselves. Basically, the company doesn't take any of their 1218 00:55:59.469 --> 00:56:02.119 time intentionally. And so people have their day to themselves. 1219 00:56:02.139 --> 00:56:04.260 They can do their work and they we trust them 1220 00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:06.500 to do their work and they get it done. But 1221 00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:09.880 if they only had 15 minutes here and 40 minutes 1222 00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:12.340 there and 32 minutes here and 15 minutes there, it's 1223 00:56:12.389 --> 00:56:15.210 very hard to get work done in that capacity. So anyway, 1224 00:56:15.570 --> 00:56:19.230 giving people a full day to themselves is something you 1225 00:56:19.250 --> 00:56:20.409 can give them. And if you can't give them a 1226 00:56:20.449 --> 00:56:22.949 full day, give a full afternoon, something. So if you're 1227 00:56:22.969 --> 00:56:25.750 going to have meetings, have them in the morning. Don't 1228 00:56:25.789 --> 00:56:29.050 spread them throughout the day. Give people a contiguous block 1229 00:56:29.090 --> 00:56:31.159 of time to themselves. That's something you can do right now. 1230 00:56:31.179 --> 00:56:33.559 It doesn't cost you anything and will benefit everybody. So 1231 00:56:34.340 --> 00:56:36.039 You can think of benefits in different ways. You can 1232 00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:38.260 think of them as monetary benefits, and those are mostly 1233 00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.829 the ones we've been talking about. But you can also 1234 00:56:40.849 --> 00:56:46.429 think about autonomy and time and trust and trust. and responsibility. 1235 00:56:46.889 --> 00:56:49.829 These are benefits as well. You can layer those on 1236 00:56:49.869 --> 00:56:51.610 people without it costing you anything. 1237 00:56:51.809 --> 00:56:54.769 Look up Paul Graham's article on a maker's schedule versus 1238 00:56:54.809 --> 00:56:57.889 a manager's schedule. I think that's what you're talking about, 1239 00:56:57.909 --> 00:57:00.550 giving a contiguous block of time. Your tweet, by the way, 1240 00:57:00.590 --> 00:57:03.039 is out of the current 56 people who work at Basecamp, 1241 00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.960 33 have been with us for five plus years. Of 1242 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.880 those 33, 25 have been with us for seven plus 1243 00:57:08.900 --> 00:57:11.599 years and 10 have been with us for 10 plus years. 1244 00:57:12.090 --> 00:57:12.469 There you go. 1245 00:57:12.659 --> 00:57:13.320 Thanks for finding that. 1246 00:57:13.619 --> 00:57:14.670 So one of the. 1247 00:57:14.630 --> 00:57:17.090 Things I wanted to close with was kind of the 1248 00:57:17.250 --> 00:57:19.590 overall philosophy and framework. And then I actually have one 1249 00:57:19.610 --> 00:57:23.170 more question after that. Bad habits beat good intentions. There's 1250 00:57:23.210 --> 00:57:25.130 a quote that people say, I'll work hard now so 1251 00:57:25.170 --> 00:57:27.789 I can relax later. And you said that that's not 1252 00:57:27.809 --> 00:57:30.190 how it works. Create the habits now to enjoy it 1253 00:57:30.469 --> 00:57:35.070 as you go later is where intentions go to die. 1254 00:57:35.809 --> 00:57:38.909 When calm starts early, calm becomes the habit. 1255 00:57:40.090 --> 00:57:42.659 Yeah. Thanks for picking that one out of the book. 1256 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.489 I think the thing is that You'll hear this a lot, 1257 00:57:46.530 --> 00:57:48.659 especially with new people who are getting into business. And 1258 00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:51.960 I

understand the pressures. I really, truly do. And people 1259 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:56.269 feel like they need to work basically endless hours, 80, 90, 1260 00:57:56.269 --> 00:57:59.719 100 hours a week to get somewhere. And I understand 1261 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:01.699 the feeling. The thing is, is that you're building habits. 1262 00:58:02.380 --> 00:58:04.519 Everything you do builds a habit, whether you like it 1263 00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.000 or not. And if that's the habit you build, that's 1264 00:58:07.019 --> 00:58:08.539 the habit you're going to keep. And it's very hard 1265 00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:10.500 to break them. So if you think that the only 1266 00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:12.070 way to get ahead is to work 80, 90, 100 1267 00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:14.130 hour weeks, like you're never going to give that up. 1268 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.480 And the notion that at some point down the road, 1269 00:58:17.539 --> 00:58:21.260 things will get easier, they don't. Things get harder. Business 1270 00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:23.980 gets harder as you go because you have more people 1271 00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:26.960 and more growth and more expectations and more competitors and 1272 00:58:26.980 --> 00:58:29.599 the markets change. Things get a little bit harder, actually. 1273 00:58:29.619 --> 00:58:32.559 They don't get easier. So I think this notion is 1274 00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:36.239 what's important. I know it's a bit complicated. Aspirational because 1275 00:58:36.260 --> 00:58:38.179 I'm sure I put in some long hours at times 1276 00:58:38.199 --> 00:58:40.239 when I was when I was you know 19 or 1277 00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:43.599 whatever I totally are 20 and 21 like I've been 1278 00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:46.039 through a few of those but I caught myself pretty 1279 00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:49.800 early because I Realized like this is not sustainable. I 1280 00:58:49.820 --> 00:58:52.260 don't want to do this. I'm exhausted. This is not 1281 00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.760 getting me anywhere and so the earlier you can get 1282 00:58:56.179 --> 00:59:00.119 into good habits in anything in the world, in exercising, 1283 00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:02.469 in reading, in whatever it might be, in eating well, 1284 00:59:02.510 --> 00:59:05.269 whatever these things are, get into those good habits because 1285 00:59:05.289 --> 00:59:07.489 they build upon themselves. And you don't have to do 1286 00:59:07.590 --> 00:59:10.139 anything other than continue to do those things to get 1287 00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:11.880 better and better and better at them and more and 1288 00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:13.980 more and more out of them. When you have to 1289 00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:16.840 break habits, especially as you get older, it becomes harder 1290 00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:18.699 and harder to break habits because you have more history 1291 00:59:18.780 --> 00:59:23.380 with the habit. People just– burn down and break down. 1292 00:59:24.090 --> 00:59:25.980 You'll have people who are in their 40s who just 1293 00:59:26.019 --> 00:59:29.000 simply can't work more than 40, 50 hours a week, 1294 00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:31.099 but they've only known how to work 80. Now they 1295 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:34.579 don't have good time management skills. Now they're kind of stuck. 1296 00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.000 It's really important to form good habits early, and that's 1297 00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:38.559 how you'll get better and better at those over time. 1298 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:41.929 By the way, how's Basecamp doing overall? 1299 00:59:42.849 --> 00:59:46.969 Basecamp's doing great. We've been in business as a business 1300 00:59:46.989 --> 00:59:49.389 for 20 years. We've been profitable every year for 20 years. 1301 00:59:50.610 --> 00:59:53.739 And we're doing great. I mean, like business is great. 1302 00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:57.139 We've had years that have been better than last year, 1303 00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:59.230 for example. But last year was one of our best 1304 00:59:59.269 --> 01:00:01.710 years still. So like, you know, this is the thing. 1305 01:00:01.750 --> 01:00:05.019 We're not on this like endless hockey stick trajectory up. 1306 01:00:05.460 --> 01:00:08.730 You know, we kind of. on a steady trajectory up 1307 01:00:08.750 --> 01:00:11.210 and there's sometimes there's some down, down blips because we 1308 01:00:11.230 --> 01:00:13.050 spend money in different ways. And what I'm talking about 1309 01:00:13.070 --> 01:00:15.210 is like, we put more money into something last year. 1310 01:00:15.269 --> 01:00:17.349 So we're less profitable last year than we were the 1311 01:00:17.389 --> 01:00:19.860 year before and the year before that. Um, but that's fine. 1312 01:00:20.030 --> 01:00:22.400 And everything's good. Like we're, we're really in a good place. 1313 01:00:22.460 --> 01:00:24.059 I'm really happy with where we're at. We're going to 1314 01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:26.539 launch a new product early next year, which is going 1315 01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:28.260 to be really exciting. And then we're going to be 1316 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:30.219 working on a brand new version of base camp next 1317 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:34.039 year as well. So we really like where we're headed and, uh, 1318 01:00:34.179 --> 01:00:35.219 we're really excited about the future. 1319 01:00:36.170 --> 01:00:36.789 One last question. 1320 01:00:36.809 --> 01:00:40.849 So you're sitting in front of a young, ambitious, smart 1321 01:00:41.449 --> 01:00:45.300 person who wants to make a positive contribution in the world. 1322 01:00:45.380 --> 01:00:47.420 And they say, Jason, I love the way you work 1323 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:50.840 and the business you've built. What is a piece of 1324 01:00:50.900 --> 01:00:54.320 advice or two you would give me to make a 1325 01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:55.920 positive contribution in this world? 1326 01:00:55.940 --> 01:01:04.750 Yeah. That's a heady, good,

really good question and really meaningful. 1327 01:01:04.769 --> 01:01:06.210 So I don't want to be flipping about it. I 1328 01:01:06.269 --> 01:01:09.780 think first thing I think is realizing that you don't 1329 01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:11.639 have to feel like you have to change the world. 1330 01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:14.219 I remember, you know, I've talked to a lot of 1331 01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:17.000 young entrepreneurs and I remember being one too. And there's 1332 01:01:17.019 --> 01:01:18.780 this notion that like you want to make your mark 1333 01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:22.210 and change the world. You're setting yourself up for almost 1334 01:01:22.250 --> 01:01:26.139 impossible odds. So what I would encourage people to do 1335 01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:29.420 is figure out how to improve their odds of success 1336 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:32.510 so they can actually have an impact. The notion that 1337 01:01:32.530 --> 01:01:34.869 you're going to change the world, like you're basically buying 1338 01:01:34.889 --> 01:01:37.130 a lottery ticket, pretty hard to do. And then you 1339 01:01:37.150 --> 01:01:40.489 might have no impact because you're shooting so high that 1340 01:01:40.610 --> 01:01:42.070 you're not going to hit that and then you're not 1341 01:01:42.090 --> 01:01:44.829 going to do something. But if you can find a 1342 01:01:44.869 --> 01:01:49.030 sustainable path where your odds are fairly decent for making it. 1343 01:01:49.030 --> 01:01:50.789 And of course, like building a business, the odds are 1344 01:01:50.809 --> 01:01:52.780 always against you. But, you know, it's hard. But let's 1345 01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:55.019 say you can like not shoot for the moon, but 1346 01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:57.000 you can shoot for it. Like instead of trying to 1347 01:01:57.019 --> 01:01:59.019 build a business that's worth a billion dollars, maybe you 1348 01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:01.239 build a business worth a million dollars to start. Like, 1349 01:02:01.659 --> 01:02:05.139 kind of go in phases and stick around. And if 1350 01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:06.840 you can find out how to stick around, you can 1351 01:02:06.900 --> 01:02:09.539 actually have impact. If you don't stick around, you're going 1352 01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:11.179 to have zero impact. So it doesn't matter how big 1353 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:12.940 the dreams are. You actually have to be able to 1354 01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:14.960 execute on these things. And sticking around is the only 1355 01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:16.440 way you're going to be able to do that. So 1356 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:20.320 my suggestion would be find something that's sustainable. Don't get 1357 01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:22.440 ahead of yourself. Don't set your goals so high that 1358 01:02:22.460 --> 01:02:24.780 you're not going to get to them. Or, you know, again, 1359 01:02:24.820 --> 01:02:26.699 like I'm not a big goal person, but if you 1360 01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:28.409 are like, don't say like, I want to be a 1361 01:02:28.449 --> 01:02:31.900 billion dollar business. Like You're just setting yourself up for 1362 01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:34.019 not being able to do it. Find something you can 1363 01:02:34.059 --> 01:02:36.659 do and then build off that base. That's what I 1364 01:02:36.659 --> 01:02:38.980 would recommend people do is take some small steps to 1365 01:02:39.019 --> 01:02:40.960 get somewhere where they can actually have an impact and 1366 01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:41.840 then keep going from there. 1367 01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:42.760 Love it. 1368 01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:46.119 Jason, thank you so much for investing your time with 1369 01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.559 me today. Where would you send my listeners to learn 1370 01:02:48.579 --> 01:02:49.460 more about you online? 1371 01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:51.699 First of all, thanks for having me on. This is great. 1372 01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:56.170 The questions are really wonderful. Basecamp.com. You can follow me 1373 01:02:56.250 --> 01:03:00.460 on Twitter. which is at Jason Freed, F-R-I-E-D, one word, 1374 01:03:00.500 --> 01:03:04.420 of course. We also have a podcast people might like, rework.fm. 1375 01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:05.929 So if you'd like some of the stuff, we talk 1376 01:03:05.949 --> 01:03:08.829 more about that stuff on our podcast. And then also 1377 01:03:08.849 --> 01:03:11.250 we have a blog, which is really popular, called Signal vs. 1378 01:03:11.329 --> 01:03:11.630 Noise. 1379 01:03:12.230 --> 01:03:17.840 It's signalvnoise.com. Or 37svn. com is like a shortcut to get there. 1380 01:03:18.780 --> 01:03:23.139 So 37svn. com. So check those out, and that would be 1381 01:03:23.260 --> 01:03:26.480 probably a good– Good collection of places to go find 1382 01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:27.000 out more about us. 1383 01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:31.239 Highly recommend following you on Twitter. Always thoughtful, offer useful. 1384 01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:34.320 Advice, as well as specifically the podcast episode where you 1385 01:03:34.360 --> 01:03:39.489 guys discussed hiring your head of marketing. I am fascinated 1386 01:03:39.510 --> 01:03:41.570 by the hiring process and how to do it well 1387 01:03:41.610 --> 01:03:42.969 because I know how important it is. 1388 01:03:43.010 --> 01:03:44.730 I've lived it through the good and the bad. 1389 01:03:45.429 --> 01:03:49.179 That's a really good episode that shows how in-depth the 1390 01:03:49.260 --> 01:03:52.909 process was, and I just found it entertaining, too. So 1391 01:03:53.150 --> 01:03:55.690 I encourage people to listen to that one, too, now 1392 01:03:55.710 --> 01:03:58.429 that you're listening to podcasts, another one to go check out. 1393 01:03:59.070 --> 01:04:01.849 And the book, it doesn't have to be crazy at work. 1394 01:04:02.389 --> 01:04:04.829 Like all your books, I love the style, man, which 1395 01:04:04.849 --> 01:04:07.500 you and DHH write. I encourage people to get that 1396

01:04:07.539 --> 01:04:10.719 as well. So, Jason, thanks again. It's been a long 1397 01:04:10.780 --> 01:04:13.880 time coming. It was absolutely fantastic to have this with you, 1398 01:04:13.980 --> 01:04:17.019 and I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. 1399 01:04:17.690 --> 01:04:19.269 Absolutely. And thanks for having me on. I'm glad we 1400 01:04:19.309 --> 01:04:20.269 could finally make this work. 1401 01:04:20.510 --> 01:04:20.789 Awesome. 1402 01:04:20.849 --> 01:04:22.010 Thanks, man. All right. Take care. 1403 01:04:22.349 --> 01:04:24.369 See ya. Wow. 1404 01:04:24.570 --> 01:04:29.449 I knew Jason would bring a number of counterintuitive ideas 1405 01:04:30.010 --> 01:04:32.769 to this conversation, but I didn't expect it to be 1406 01:04:33.010 --> 01:04:36.949 basically every single aspect of the talk. But that is 1407 01:04:37.030 --> 01:04:41.090 why I loved it. I thoroughly enjoy speaking with really 1408 01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:45.750 intelligent people who have well thought out ideas and reasons 1409 01:04:45.809 --> 01:04:48.610 behind what they do. And it is very evident that 1410 01:04:48.699 --> 01:04:51.940 Jason has that. A few of them that really caught 1411 01:04:51.980 --> 01:04:55.239 me off guard, at least speaking with him, even though 1412 01:04:55.260 --> 01:04:59.460 I've read about these ideas, the thought of not having 1413 01:04:59.840 --> 01:05:04.929 any plan or goals, specifically the goal one. I've always 1414 01:05:04.989 --> 01:05:07.289 set goals. I've worked in sales my whole life and 1415 01:05:07.329 --> 01:05:10.159 had sales numbers to hit So the thought of not 1416 01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:13.449 having that in place is absolutely different for me, but 1417 01:05:13.510 --> 01:05:16.369 something I'm going to reflect on to potentially think about 1418 01:05:16.429 --> 01:05:19.369 as I work to build my business. Then the importance 1419 01:05:19.389 --> 01:05:23.590 of being a great writer. I believe that writing equals 1420 01:05:24.030 --> 01:05:27.340 clarity of thought. The process of writing my book, I 1421 01:05:27.460 --> 01:05:30.880 certainly learned a lot about myself and what I believe 1422 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:32.980 because I was forced to get it down on paper 1423 01:05:33.019 --> 01:05:35.909 and I encourage you all to do the same. And 1424 01:05:35.929 --> 01:05:41.800 then The importance of being able to give and receive feedback. 1425 01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:49.030 Being coachable and being a good coach are very useful 1426 01:05:49.110 --> 01:05:52.269 skills regardless of your role. But certainly if you want 1427 01:05:52.329 --> 01:05:53.969 to be a leader, you have to be willing to 1428 01:05:54.449 --> 01:05:57.449 to be coached as well as coach and help others 1429 01:05:57.530 --> 01:05:59.429 so those are just a few that i pointed out 1430 01:05:59.449 --> 01:06:01.099 but there are many other parts of this that i 1431 01:06:01.179 --> 01:06:04.039

found useful i hope you did as well if so 1432 01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:06.239 i would love it if you would tell a friend 1433 01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:08.880 or two perhaps one that has never listened to the 1434 01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:11.869 learning leader show and tell them why this episode with 1435 01:06:11.929 --> 01:06:16.449 ceo of base camp jason freed could be useful for 1436 01:06:16.489 --> 01:06:19.699 them Thank you for continuing to spread the word and 1437 01:06:19.780 --> 01:06:23.000 giving me the opportunity to do what I love on 1438 01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:23.800 a daily basis. 1439 01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:27.639 For that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so much. 1440 01:06:27.699 --> 01:06:29.059 Talk with you next week. Can't wait. 1441 01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:35.139 We are opening up applications for our next Learning Leader Circle. 1442 01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:38.940 We only do this once per year. And think back 1443 01:06:39.019 --> 01:06:42.969 to the great conversation I had with the legendary Jim Collins, 1444 01:06:43.010 --> 01:06:45.949 episode 216. He said, Ryan, before you get too caught 1445 01:06:46.010 --> 01:06:48.190 up in the why and the what, you need to 1446 01:06:48.289 --> 01:06:52.849 first be very intentional about your who. Who will be 1447 01:06:52.869 --> 01:06:56.090 your friends? Who will be your mentor? Who will you help? 1448 01:06:56.349 --> 01:07:00.309 Who will you choose to surround yourself with? That will 1449 01:07:00.349 --> 01:07:04.050 be the single greatest determining factor in your long-term success. 1450 01:07:05.179 --> 01:07:08.539 And I would ask you the same question. Who are 1451 01:07:08.619 --> 01:07:11.809 you surrounding yourself with? Do you want to be surrounded 1452 01:07:12.369 --> 01:07:16.289 by growth-oriented leaders that are willing to push you? We've 1453 01:07:16.409 --> 01:07:19.590 added specific curriculum and elements so that by the end 1454 01:07:19.610 --> 01:07:22.960 of the year, you'll have tangible outcomes to measure your 1455 01:07:23.019 --> 01:07:27.559 growth and be a more effective leader, both personally and professionally. 1456 01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:32.349 These groups are intentionally curated and kept small. Time and again, 1457 01:07:32.389 --> 01:07:34.690 the thing that people say they love about these groups 1458 01:07:34.829 --> 01:07:37.809 is the relationships they're able to build with one another 1459 01:07:37.889 --> 01:07:41.219 in a short period of time. If you'd like to apply, 1460 01:07:41.699 --> 01:07:47.699 go to learningleaderscircle.com. That's learningleaderscircle.com to apply. 1461 01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:52.429 Okay. Okay. 1462 01:07:53.510 --> 01:07:55.530 Awesome, man. Thank you so much. 1463 01:07:55.550 --> 01:07:58.230 I could hear the way that you think for each answer, 1464 01:07:58.250 --> 01:08:00.070 and that means a lot to me that you're so 1465 01:08:00.150 --> 01:08:02.349 thoughtful about it. So I really appreciate that. It makes 1466 01:08:02.389 --> 01:08:05.610 it so much better. to hear that you, you care 1467 01:08:05.690 --> 01:08:08.909 so much about each and every answer. Um, yeah, it just, 1468 01:08:08.989 --> 01:08:10.780 it just, I was sitting here at times had to 1469 01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:14.239 remember I'm recording a podcast and not just being kind 1470 01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:15.619 of a, a student. 1471 01:08:15.659 --> 01:08:18.039 So thank you for that. Yeah, you bet. My pleasure. 1472 01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:20.460 Um, really again, thanks for having me on the questions 1473 01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:23.079 are really thoughtful too. I, I think they're great. Um, 1474 01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:25.199 It's hard. You talk to a lot of people and 1475 01:08:25.239 --> 01:08:27.069 do these podcasts, and a lot of people don't really 1476 01:08:27.090 --> 01:08:29.489 come prepared. I feel like you really came prepared, and 1477 01:08:29.710 --> 01:08:32.789 I really appreciate that. It's rare, actually. You probably know. 1478 01:08:32.829 --> 01:08:33.989 You probably listen to all the podcasts. 1479 01:08:34.050 --> 01:08:34.470 It's rare. 1480 01:08:34.989 --> 01:08:36.189 So you're doing a good job. 1481 01:08:36.409 --> 01:08:36.770 Thank you. 1482 01:08:36.789 --> 01:08:39.489 Yeah, I think the work, like anything else, if you 1483 01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:41.479 put the work in early, it makes it better when 1484 01:08:41.500 --> 01:08:42.600 you have the event. 1485 01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:44.439 So I appreciate your kind words. It means a lot. 1486 01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:46.560 I'll be sure to follow up when this thing goes live. 1487 01:08:46.600 --> 01:08:48.859 It'll probably be pretty quick, within a few weeks. So 1488 01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:49.500 I'll let you know. 1489 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:50.239 Very good. 1490 01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:50.779 Thanks. 1491 01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:52.189 Thanks, Jason. See you. Bye.