رونوشت کامل The Dev Life S5 E8 | Nicole Oliver on Evolving from Developer to Program Leadership

There's like 72 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:42.480 a there is a culture of trust and treating you 73 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.959 like an adult, which I really value. And yeah, I 74 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:48.720 get inspired by my colleagues every day. 75 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:51.560 Nice, that's awesome. 76 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:55.360 Well, as an extreme nerd and also an extreme gamer, 77 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:55.959 I have to. 78 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:58.519 Ask, what was it like working for a Nintendo. 79 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:03.000 Oh? Yeah, it was an interesting experience. At the time, 80 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:06.920 I had just moved up to the Seattle area because 81 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:10.560 my husband got a job at Xbox, and we were 82 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:12.839 like right across from each other in terms of like 83 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.399 the Nintendo campus is like right next to Xbox in 84 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.560 the Microsoft campus, So it was really strange. We were 85 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.360 like working right next to each other, but we could 86 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:24.439 never talk about work because it was all it was 87 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.480 all secret. I was working in a unit that did 88 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:36.040 game testing, so we were working on internal applications and Nintendo, 89 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:38.759 I mean they it was really interesting organization to be 90 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.519 a part of. I also like got a lot I 91 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.120 didn't play Nintendo games when I was a kid, so 92 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.160 I learned a lot about them while I was there, 93 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.279 and I got really into them because they're so fun, 94 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.040 Like how can you not? So it was fun like 95 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.199 there were like we were working in a place where 96 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:57.959 everybody was really passionate about games, and I've played games 97 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.319 like for most of my life too, so it was 98 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.720 just it was a it was a fun culture to 99 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:04.639 be a part of for sure. 100 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:06.120 Wow. 101 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.720 Wow, You've been in so many roles and work for 102 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.600 so many cool places. So one of the vibes we 103 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.199 kind of have in this podcast that people have been 104 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:16.560 listening for a while now is kind of. 105 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:18.000 A beach surfy vibe. 106 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.160 So this might be a tricky question, but if you 107 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.680 were to assign a beach activity to each of these 108 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.639 various roles that you've been in, what would they. 109 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:34.800 Be, Oh, let's see a beachy vibe. I think that 110 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:40.240 for for engineering, it's got to be something active, right 111 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:44.480 because you're like really in the in the thick of it, 112 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.720 like you're you're doing all the work, and maybe something 113 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.920 like running on the beach or like playing volleyball something 114 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:57.720 like that. Program management, product management, and engineering management, I 115 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.839 think kind of going the same same bucket. I would 116 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:03.920 say it's like organizing a peach a beach picnic, making 117 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.920 sure that like everything is like coming together, bringing all 118 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.839 the supplies, making sure everybody gets there on time. There's 119 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:12.879 a lot of I'm gonna say that. Yeah, that's that's 120 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.920 my answer. There's some things that I don't know if 121 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:15.920 they fit into the metaphor. 122 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.959 That's a tricky metaphor. I'm like trying to add to that. 123 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.839 Like I guess a lifeguard is like the security person. 124 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:23.959 Okay, I like that. 125 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.240 Yeah, yeah, is just sticking out of the sand. I 126 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:33.519 don't know. Yeah, you know what, When I was a kid, 127 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:37.240 we did these like big tricycle bike things. They were 128 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:39.600 like maybe sand though. Have you we been on one 129 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:40.000 of those? 130 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.759 I've seen them, Okay with the really thick tires. 131 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.519 Yeah. Yeah, it is hard, Like once you get into it, 132 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.279 it's fine, but like, dang, it's really hard though. Yeah. 133 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.959 I feel like anytime you're doing anything insand it's it's 134 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.800 a littlettle bit harder than Yeah, it's so true. 135 00:07:58.120 --> 00:07:58.800 Absolutely. 136 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.839 Well, with all that in mind, let's go to talk 137 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:08.319 about transitioning from developer roles into other positions on product teams. So, Nicole, 138 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:11.079 you've already told us a bit about your background and 139 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:16.519 moving out of software development. What was your aha moment 140 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.519 that made you consider stepping away from hands on engineering 141 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:22.199 into a program management role. 142 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:23.920 Well, this is not gonna be very exciting, but it 143 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.800 was really just what the company needed at the time, 144 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.279 Jeff and Victor asked me. I think they were looking 145 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.919 previously

for somebody who was working like a product leader, 146 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:42.399 who had had previous experience in product. But one of 147 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.679 the things that they were also considering was like finding 148 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:48.159 somebody within the company who already had the background, the 149 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:53.960 context on what we were building, and having them learn 150 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.120 the skills involved in product. So that's what we did, 151 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:05.120 That's what we tried. I I usually find myself I'm 152 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.799 fairly fluid when it comes to like what I do 153 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.600 in my day to day. I find myself like the 154 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.200 kind of person who, when presented with something new like that, 155 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:19.639 usually I'm up for at least like trying it out. 156 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:22.440 I can't always say that I'm like good at a 157 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:24.679 new skill. It takes me a while to like pick 158 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.559 some some things up, but I do find them like 159 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.080 really interesting, like this was in Like this in particular 160 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:36.840 was a very social and people forward challenge, which is 161 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.320 something that I have not experienced in my career for 162 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.720 the most part, and that was kind of like the 163 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.039 biggest component that was new to me that I wanted 164 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:47.039 to kind of like try out. 165 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:50.440 See. I love that, And I'm relating to you a 166 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.440 lot because I'm someone also who has a bit of 167 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:59.600 a twisty background. Cool, I'm bad, but yeah, I mean like, 168 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:03.559 I come from teaching and education and ah, I made 169 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.960 my way actually into working with Bengie, komp and Thinkster, 170 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:12.639 so it was event planning and business and consers and 171 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.320 like all these things, and then into software engineering. So 172 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:20.080 I'm relating to it a lot. And I love your 173 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:26.639 flexibility and just how you never close yourself off opportunities 174 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.879 as they were presented to you. And that's kind of 175 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.240 one of the not just with jobs, but like in 176 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.720 life in general. It's just kind of doing what you can, 177 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:41.240 doing your best, but not like being so shut off 178 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.639 to new opportunities as they come. And I've kind of 179 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.039 found that that's where, you know, if we're talking about 180 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.240

the dead life and living our ultimate developer life, I 181 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.480 feel like that's a large part of it is just 182 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:53.840 having that openness. 183 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.159 Yeah, I agree, And I don't know about you, but 184 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.399 I have always found myself like drawn to a lot 185 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.279 of different things. I think that there are a lot 186 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.639 of fields that are interesting, so I don't feel the 187 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.679 need to like go down one particular path, which I 188 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.120 honestly think, like for people who do have that sure 189 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:14.200 path for themselves, that's great, Like I think that's that's 190 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.000 wonderful that they are very sure of themselves and like 191 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:20.960 know where they're going. But for me, I just have 192 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.080 like had a lot of interest. So I's that's the 193 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:25.759 benefit of having so many interest. 194 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:29.720 Right, sure? Yeah, and real quick too, I know we've 195 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.399 we've talked about already, like you've mentioned a couple of 196 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:37.320 times program management, but what like maybe this is a 197 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.759 good time to stop, because I think there's always some 198 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:46.720 confusion on program management versus technical program management versus project management. 199 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.759 But what can you say about the differences there? 200 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.639 Yeah, so I'm actually not as familiar with program management, 201 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:59.399 and I looked it up before full disclosure. I looked 202 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:04.000 at them before this because I wanted to know what 203 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:06.919 the Internet had to say about like the differences between them. 204 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.879 I am much more familiar with product management, which has 205 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:11.519 like kind of been my focus over the last couple 206 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:13.960 of years. But I also have a number of friends 207 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:15.679 who work at Microsoft, and they've kind of filled me 208 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.559 on some of the details of program management which they 209 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:24.000 practice there. My understanding is that program management is much 210 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:29.559 more focused on like organizing details and often working across 211 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:36.759 teams to accomplish a certain goal within the organization, and 212 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:42.200 that product management is often more strategic and looking at 213 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.679 like one you focus on one particular product and you 214 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:49.440 own some feature or set of features, and you are 215 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:54.080 looking at, how do I make this product successful through data, 216 00:12:54.279 --> 00:13:01.279 talking to customers and doing like user interviews and being 217 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:07.799 really focused on like technically ensuring that you validate solutions 218 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:12.399 before your team goes out and builds them. And sometimes 219 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.759 they're like, project management is a discipline within that. So 220 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:19.519 sometimes it can be scheduling meetings, getting the team together, 221 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:25.919 organizing people around different questions and like answering those questions 222 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:27.720 and then getting the team to kind of like work 223 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:33.399 on them. But the prime like, not every product manager 224 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.600 does a great deal of project management. Usually you start 225 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.480 in some project management and you kind of like as 226 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.679 you kind of go up in your career, you get 227 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:48.200 more into strategy strategic thinking, where do we want to 228 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.039 go in five years? How does this fit into the 229 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:56.120 larger picture of my organization? And my understanding is that 230 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.799 there is a parallel with program management and project management, 231 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:06.039 where program management has the sub discipline of project management, 232 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:09.799 and then as you kind of like get further up 233 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.759 in the ranks, you're doing more. You might even like 234 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:14.960 I think in the case of Microsoft, I don't know 235 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:17.679 if everybody has this, but in the case of Microsoft, 236 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.080 product managers are usually a role that you grow into 237 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:30.000 from checked from project management or program management. So it's 238 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.919 different with a lot of different companies, is what I've 239 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:38.039 gathered from like talking to other folks. And it's especially 240 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:43.159 different in my role because I am I am an 241 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:49.679 engineering manager and an I see and doing some product management. 242 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:54.519 As someone who's written code and shipped features. What developer 243 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:59.279 frustrations did you want to solve from the product manager side? 244 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.120 Would you say developer frustrations? Do you mean frustrations for 245 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.440 developers on my team or or developers that are using 246 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:09.320 my product? 247

00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.279 Oh that's a good that's a good question out either 248 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:12.720 of both. 249 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:17.200 Okay, so I can I think I can speak to 250 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:23.399 this more from the engineering manager standpoint, because for product management, 251 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.720 I think somebody who is truly focused on product management 252 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.120 is not really as concerned about like developers on their 253 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.679 team and their frustrations. It's usually more kind of in 254 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.879 the in the wheelhouse of the engineering manager to solve 255 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:41.799 those But because I come from both, I do understand 256 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.120 the history, and because I've been working on this team 257 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:49.360 for a while, I do understand the history, and I 258 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:54.679 see a lot of the difficulties with you know, maybe 259 00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:00.159 developer experience, developer ergonomics, and have to weigh those with 260 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:04.200 like all of the priorities from the product side. So 261 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.120 when we're looking I think if somebody were coming in new, 262 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.240 they would have like a pretty clean slate and be 263 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:16.559 able to prioritize the just the product needs but for 264 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.720 better for worse. I have like the full perspective, I think, 265 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.000 and so or a much more full perspective, and so 266 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.759 I I will often like kind of put them in 267 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:35.559 the same prioritization kind of like queue. I think from 268 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:41.840 from a like a understanding our user's perspective, It's made 269 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.320 a huge difference because we work on a tool that 270 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.759 is primarily like one of the main audiences is engineers 271 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.120 and so having a technical understanding of the product which 272 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.159 we dog food, so it makes it easy to put 273 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:01.759 ourselves in the place of the customer. It has made 274 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.960 a huge, huge difference in being able to be effective 275 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.400 as a product manager. 276 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.359 Yeah, that's kind of an interesting thought because I think 277 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.839 a lot of engineer software engineers are so used to 278 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.160 like their customer is an everyday user, not necessarily a 279 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.720 software engineer. So that's got to be tricky to be 280 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.359 making a product for someone who really can sit there 281 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.559 and like analyze, you know, from a from a very 282 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.200 technical perspective, like why did they do that that way? 283 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:36.920 So that would be challenging. That said, though, I'm really 284 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.440 curious about this because because like you, you know, I 285 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.599 switched roles. I went from software engineer moved into technical 286 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.720 program management. There was a part of me that was 287 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.960 a little bit like, I guess it's the ego side 288 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:54.079 of me. Honestly, it was like I worked really hard 289 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.160 to get into that role, you know, like I said, 290 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:00.160 coming from education, going through these other roles, and I 291 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.440 have to admit to like, programming did not come naturally 292 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:06.359 to me. I had to really fight to get to 293 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.759 where I was, and so it was a badge of honor, 294 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:13.079 honestly to have software engineer on my resume. So making 295 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:17.880 that transition into a technical program management position, it was 296 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.279 it was there was some hesitancy of like, you know what, 297 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.839 what is that? How does that reflect on me? What 298 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.680 will the engineers think of me? I've been so proud 299 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.319 to be in the trenches with them. Will this change that? 300 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.640 But I don't know, did you have any similar feelings 301 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:35.519 or how did you get over that? 302 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:43.720 I can't say that I had similar feelings, but probably 303 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:48.440 because of the uniqueness of the way that NX is 304 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:54.720 structured within the engineering organization the product organization, anybody who 305 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.240 is a engineer is also going to be a nice 306 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.599 So there's no we don't have engineering managers who are 307 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.799 not also ICs. And that's something that is really important 308 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:15.079 to our CTO, Victor. He has been very vigilant about 309 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.880 making sure that that is the case for anybody who 310 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:23.119 has been on the engineering team, and so nobody really leaves, 311 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.240 Nobody really leaves their icy role, and it is really 312 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:30.119 valuable because we are a dev tools company. It makes 313 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:37.759 a big difference. I'm curious when you entered into program management, 314 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.799 did you were you at the same company or did 315 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.240 you go to a different

okay, and did you enjoy 316 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.279 like your day to day when you were like an engineer. 317 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:46.559 Absolutely? 318 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:47.000 Yeah. 319 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.400 In fact, it was because I was enjoying it that 320 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.559 I was finding in some spare moments here and there 321 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.640 to like organize different initiatives and things just for fun, 322 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.319 like just pure fun of it. And it was that 323 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.400 my manager sat down with me and said, you know, 324 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.799 I know you have this background, and I see what 325 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:07.880 you're doing here. And he was the one that said, 326 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.799 if you ever considered program management And I was like, 327 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.319 what is that? So I hadn't, but he then gave 328 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:18.039 me the flexibility to. He was like, let's do like 329 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.680 a twenty eighty percent twenty percent program management. Still keep 330 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.720 you doing mostly engineering, but just dip your toes in 331 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:28.240 and he's like, if you don't like it, no worries. 332 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.359 But it was it was just very I don't know, 333 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:36.559 very respectfully done carefully. He wasn't pressuring, but good. 334 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:39.799 Yeah, that's I've had a few transitions like that in 335 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.640 my career, and I honestly think it is the best 336 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.920 way to learn a new skill that you're going to like. 337 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:49.839 It's the best way to transition to a new role. 338 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.200 It's unfortunately not always an opportunity that's given to people, 339 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.400 but it is hands down, in my in my experience, 340 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.279 the best way to learn a new role. You don't 341 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.799 have like the pressure of of, you know, trying to 342 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.519 find a job in that environment with like like competing 343 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.680 with lots of other people, Like you already have some 344 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:14.359 context on like whatever you're working on, and you know 345 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.279 the people they can give you feedback, like on your team. 346 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.759 So I don't know, I feel really fortunate to have 347 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.400 had that, and I hope you do too. 348 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.480 Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, but it is. 349 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:35.519 I understand like it is. It is difficult to like 350 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:37.880 give it. I feel like, uh, engineering is kind of 351 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.720 like a rock star role, even if like you're

not 352 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.720 acting like a rock star, like you kind of feel 353 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:49.440 cool doing it. So so I understand what you're saying 354 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:49.960 for sure. 355 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.279 So it's just amazing to me how many different roles 356 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.039 you've adapted into and it sounds like just thrived in 357 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:01.759 all of them. What, like, what would you give to 358 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.759 people who are taking up different roles and like how 359 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.880 to be in the right mindset for it and develop 360 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.359 their skills at transitioning. 361 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.519 Yeah, I guess everybody has like a different learning style. 362 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:14.559 For me. 363 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.200 When I'm when I started this product management role, I 364 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.079 just like I bought five like product management books and 365 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.960 started following I like read through them all. I started 366 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.039 following a lot of different people on social media LinkedIn 367 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:35.960 and just saw what they had to say about product management, 368 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.359 and that really opened my eyes up. I I know 369 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.359 that not everybody kind of operates that way, and I 370 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.640 don't think it's necessarily the best way to dive into 371 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:51.920 something new for everyone, But for me it is. I 372 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.960 like to start from like a platform of like understanding 373 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.519 how the industry should like thinks that you should operate 374 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:06.920 in this role. But when I after I kind of 375 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.960 like went through all the books that I was reading 376 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.960 and started trying to implement some of the things that 377 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.759 I was reading about about being product led as a company. 378 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.759 I found that there's a lot of nuance in how 379 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:26.119 you introduce those things to an organization that has not 380 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:29.839 has not been operating in that way. Like change management 381 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.599 is like a whole another skill set that that I 382 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.039 was not familiar with before, and there's a lot of 383 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.880 skill there. I think there's a lot of skill just 384 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:45.160 generally in kind of these roles like engineering management and 385 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.400 product management, any any kind of like leadership role that 386 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:55.839 before you take it on seems it seems like it's 387 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.559 a soft skill or like trivial in some respect, but 388 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.640 when you do it, oh my goodness, it's it's complicated, 389 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.319 it's nuanced. It it has so many factors that I 390 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:14.119 did not expect. So just being kind of like prepared 391 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:19.640 for like a you know, not necessarily like smooth transition, 392 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:24.119 I think is important whenever you're making a transition, like 393 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:27.039 I had that also when I was learning to program. 394 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:29.839 When I was learning Node, like on the job, I 395 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:36.119 went through I was like nose to the grindstone and 396 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:40.759 got really frustrated. I think all programmers can probably relate 397 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:42.839 to this, because everybody goes through it to some extent. 398 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:46.920 But yeah, just kind of like working through all of 399 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.480 that and knowing that you're going to get to the 400 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:55.039 other side and not getting kind of bogged down by 401 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:59.640 like the value of despair if you're familiar with that 402 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:05.000 from what is it called. When you're like on a 403 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:07.400 learning journey, you kind of like go up and you feel, 404 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.799 I can't remember the name of the of the the 405 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.200 like the room. I'm terrible with names. That's part of 406 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:19.200 my that's that is one of my downfalls. Valley of 407 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:25.440 despair like Dunning Kruger effect, Dunning Kruger effect. Yeah, it's 408 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:28.319 where you like when you're learning something new and you 409 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.759 get to like you kind of go up a first 410 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.240 path and it's like it's it's somewhat easy, and you're like, oh, 411 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.680 I'm feeling really good. This is this is so easy, 412 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.400 Like I'm I'm going to make so much progress and 413 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.119 you just don't know like what you don't know. And 414 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:45.720 then once you learn a little bit more, you like 415 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:47.759 go down into the valley of despair where you're like, 416 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.119 I'm never gonna get where I want to be and 417 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.720 this is so hard. I'm putting so much effort in 418 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.359 I'm not getting that much out of it. And then 419 00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.440 there's like a I think it's called the plateau of 420 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.640 consistency or something like that, where you have enough of 421 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.400 the skill that you are doing fairly fairly well and 422 00:26:08.400

--> 00:26:10.839 you're able to make consistent progress. 423 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:13.319 That is so fascinating. 424 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.200 Like I was just talking to my brother, he teaches 425 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:22.079 at a university programming and he was telling me this, 426 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.000 like this is the exact curve his students follow. He 427 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.240 was like, they all join me, and they're like, they're 428 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.160 all so confident, they think they know so much, and 429 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.359 then yeah, it goes up and then they hit this 430 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.559 phase or they're like, whoa, I know nothing, you know, yeah, 431 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.400 and then yeah, throughout our career, we eventually, you know, 432 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:45.519 get up there to that plateau. And I also love 433 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.079 that you mentioned books. I feel like you do it 434 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:50.960 the right way. I've done it the wrong way throughout 435 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.680 my career. Where what I've usually done is I've gotten 436 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.240 into the position and then realized, oh shoot, I need 437 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.839 to read a book now at this point two months 438 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.119 and then panic read the book and then oh my gosh, 439 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.640 you know, it saves me. Like like when I first 440 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.400 was running a company for the first time, it was 441 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.720 like I had no clue what to do, and then 442 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.160 you know, I found this book The Culture Code that 443 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.680 just changed changed my approach to everything. For me, programming, 444 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:24.359 it was a pragmatic programmer. Yeah, everyone's speaking the language 445 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.000 about and I didn't know how to talk it. And 446 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:31.000 then you know, read Pragmatic Programmer. Good tip for you 447 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.920 engineers out there through a language that's a good one. 448 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:37.240 Yeah, it makes a big difference. To have like a 449 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.480 framework for me at least, I think there are a 450 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:43.599 lot of people who learn socially learn by doing. I 451 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.839 think everybody learns by doing. But for me, having a 452 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.720 framework in place to understand what I'm learning to kind 453 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:54.759 of like climb off of is it makes a big 454 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.359 difference in how I absorb the information and retain it. 455 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:01.599 Okay, So I have to ask because you mentioned like 456 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:06.640 change and when you know when when a department or 457 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:11.680 team is going through these changes, and boy Limbo has 458 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.359 no idea what change is, Right, Matt, We've gone through 459 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:17.799 some definite like I mean, like any startup is going 460 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.680 to go through change in growth and development. 461 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:25.640 But I'm curious because, like as as you've now been 462 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.519 in both seats here, what I'm curious about is like 463 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.279 when you know, like product and engineering really have to 464 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.839 work closely together, and that their opinions may not always 465 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.799 line up, like product may have a slightly different opinion 466 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.200 or take on something than the engineers. So now that 467 00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:47.599 you've been in both positions, how would you say that 468 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.440 your perspective has changed at all through that? Like when 469 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.680 when a company is growing or when there is a 470 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.799 change that's going on. What's kind of your your new 471 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:02.680 perspective from a program manager's side rather than just the 472 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.599 engineering and how would you bridge differences. 473 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:13.160 So the way that a lot of the leaders in 474 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:18.680 the industry recommend that you develop products in a product 475 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:24.680 led fashion is that you are not kind of like 476 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:27.079 handing off Like I think a lot of people in 477 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.680 software development are used to kind of like a new 478 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.039 waterfall method. Basically like we all call ourselves agile, but 479 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.359 basically like the way that we're developing is still kind 480 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.720 of waterfall in that like leadership makes a decision about 481 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:45.359 what needs to be made, then some other folks in 482 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.400 leadership kind of like hammer out the details. Then it 483 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.160 gets kind of like handed down to a manager who says, 484 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.359 you know, these are the requirements that need to be 485 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:57.519 in place. Like a project manager is going to like 486 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:01.119 detail all those out, and then a designer is going 487 00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:03.039 to kind of like try and make it look better, 488 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:05.960 but not actually like make any functional changes to it 489 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.160 because it's already been hammered out. And then by the 490 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:10.599 time it gets to engineering, it's like you just need 491 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.200 to implement it.

There's no there's no room for you 492 00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:18.200 to make decisions here, and and then it gets to 493 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.799 QA who can just like kind of point out bugs 494 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.400 but not really like point out functional differences and like 495 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.200 how the product operates and like how effective it is, 496 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:31.880 and then it just gets pushed out. So that is 497 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:37.720 a pretty typical way of like developing at companies. The 498 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:39.799 way that is kind of like recommended from like a 499 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:45.519 true product lead standpoint is that your team is made 500 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:51.000 up of like a product person, a designer, and an 501 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.079 engineer at the minimum, and you work in like a 502 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.759 small group and you are handed a problem to solve, say, 503 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.279 like we are not getting we're not hitting our onboarding numbers, 504 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.920 Like we want to be able to grow our product 505 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.480 and we need more people to be onboarding. Okay, So 506 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.119 your team is given this problem and then you don't 507 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.920 know what the solution is yet. You don't have like 508 00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.000 a set of requirements. You just have that goal and 509 00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.240 your team is going to collaborate really closely for a 510 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.160 period of time and prototype as much as possible so 511 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.160 that you can figure out what works. And you're looking 512 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:32.640 at data, you're talking to customers, you are getting like 513 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.039 concrete feedback about what is working and what is not. 514 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.160 And then once the purpose of doing that is like 515 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.839 to have the prototype, like go through as many prototypes 516 00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.640 as possible so that you are able to find a 517 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.160 solution before you sink a lot of effort into it, right, 518 00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.279 and then once you as a team decide on everything 519 00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.599 and have that conversation and the engineer is like just 520 00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:02.200 as involved as say a product person or the designer 521 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:06.680 in making those decisions, then you will all in parallel 522 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.079 or on your own timelines, do the long work of 523 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.880 actually implementing. So that understanding that was the biggest shift 524 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.720 that I had after I moved to product. That that 525 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:24.160 is the that is the ideal way to kind of 526 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:29.680 like put all the difficult decisions upfront and make sure 527 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.400 that everybody's on board with them before you are like 528 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.799 putting in all the effort and not getting to the 529 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.359 end of a project and saying, oh, it's not successful, 530 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:44.799 we'll just like do it again later or something like that. So, yeah, 531 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.119 that was a big aha moment for me. The other 532 00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:53.279 thing that I wanted to say was that I I 533 00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:59.279 what I realized after reading all these books and understanding 534 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:05.119 product better is that product is something that all engineers 535 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.720 should know, like that it should be the responsibility of 536 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.359 engineers to operate in a product led way and designers 537 00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:19.599 as well. And I don't think that most companies' cultures 538 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.039 encourage that. Like there's a lot of company cultures that 539 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:27.920 kind of set things up so that engineers are not 540 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:32.319 supposed to make a lot of like critical decisions. They're 541 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:34.440 just supposed to kind of like be code monkeys and 542 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:39.319 like implement. And that's really sad because engineers are so 543 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:44.519 smart and we should be taking advantage of like all 544 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.079 the critical thinking that they are already able to do 545 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:52.720 and allow them to feel ownership and be able to 546 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.880 look at, you know, a problem and come up with 547 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.599 a solution that they feel really good about and they 548 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.079 have the numbers to back up up. I've seen more 549 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:05.599 and more posts online on LinkedIn on like, you know, 550 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.440 the industry isn't a hard place right now. But the 551 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.400 thing that I think sets people apart, Like, as an 552 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:15.159 engineering manager, I can say this when I look at 553 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.679 people to hire for my team, I'm looking for people 554 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:22.039 who think in a product led way, people who are 555 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:27.960 thinking critically about things and not just implementing. Because as 556 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:30.679 a manager like you are, you are focusing on so 557 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:33.320 many things, your attention is so spread out, and you 558 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.599 really want to like trust the people that you are 559 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:39.480 working with. So part of that trust comes from, like, 560 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.679 I

trust you to think about this problem, own this 561 00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:47.320 problem wholly, and come up with a solution that we 562 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.960 can all we're all going to like, which is a 563 00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:55.239 very nuanced skill, but it's something that I think is 564 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.760 going to become more and more relevant in the years 565 00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.920 to come, especially with AI. 566 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.440 So Well said, Yeah, I love that. 567 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.320 I feel like I've heard a lot there's this common 568 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:10.360 thing going on of companies saying that they're following agile, 569 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.599 but they're really very very waterfall. Yeah, and so yeah, 570 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:16.840 I loved I love hearing how you're doing it, and 571 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:19.599 I think that's a really good model. It also reminds 572 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.880 me of the book inspired by Marty Kagan. I think, yeah, 573 00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.119 a good good read for on the product management side. 574 00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.639 But yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that approach. 575 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:35.159 So what advice would you have for engineers who want 576 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.360 to be more involved in product and curious about taking 577 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.079 on more of a leadership role. 578 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.519 So I would say that there's definitely reading the books. 579 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.280 I don't have a particular book to recommend, except the 580 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:53.320 Marty Kagan series is really really really relevant. I really 581 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:55.840 enjoyed like that was one of the first series that 582 00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.159 I read, and it definitely set up like a good 583 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:07.719 framework for me to understand product development. I don't have 584 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:11.119 like any particular like resources that are aimed at engineers 585 00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.960 that want to understand product better, but I think that 586 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:16.840 like just kind of diving into product and like understanding 587 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:22.000 that there's a lot of resources online too. Concretely, the 588 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.639 things that I would recommend are building up your data sources, 589 00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:32.119 whether that be through a product platform or you know, 590 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.920 making sure that you're doing a B testing, and then 591 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:41.280 like having analytics, like the analytics platforms available, and like 592 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:44.840 actually really looking at the data of what is coming 593 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.280 in about how people use your product. I mean a 594 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:52.519 lot of it just comes down to curiosity, right, Curiosity 595 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.119 about your customers, curiosity about your users, where people getting stuck, 596 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:04.199 and so data sources and then talking to customers is 597 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.679 like the big thing in product. Like if you are 598 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.719 a product manager, the recommendation is that you are talking 599 00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:13.559 to customers like at least once a week, ideally more. 600 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.519 As an engineer, I think it is super important for 601 00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:23.000 engineers to be talking to customers and in interacting with 602 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:24.760 people who use the product that they. 603 00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:25.199 Work on. 604 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.000 Just as often or you know, like as much as 605 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.199 you can at least, and that can come from like 606 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:36.360 talking to folks on discord or talking to people in support. 607 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:41.519 One of the things that has become really obvious to 608 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:44.519 me kind of like being in a leadership role, is 609 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:50.400 that when you separate out your team into these different 610 00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:55.039 buckets where this person has the responsibility of project management, 611 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:58.320 and this person has the responsibility of like owning this feature, 612 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.920 and this person has like there's possibility of designing a feature. 613 00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:08.239 Every time you do that, it introduces overhead for communicating 614 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:12.440 and making decisions and just understanding like how these things 615 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:14.920 are going to fit together, and that overhead can be 616 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:20.880 surprisingly large. And so the more that you can have 617 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:27.679 people kind of making those decisions and being sure of 618 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:29.760 them and having those data sources to back them up, 619 00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:34.440 and and even like to some extent, like doing their 620 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.079 own project management and that they're like managing their own 621 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:40.440 tickets and like communicating with like customers and not like 622 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.440 offloading that to somebody else on their team, the more 623 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:47.880 efficient you are running. So it makes a big difference, 624 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:52.280 I think, because it's just as difficult for a engineer 625 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:56.360 to tell somebody on like support staff or like you 626 00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:00.320 know another engineer who's like communicating with a customer what 627 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:03.440 they need to say as to just tell the customer themselves. 628 00:39:05.079 -->

00:39:06.840 I don't know if you've experienced. 629 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:10.079 That, absolutely well, and I guess you're talking. One thing 630 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.280 that came to my mind was one of the most 631 00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.840 effective meetings that we've created was and I don't know 632 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:20.679 where the idea came from, but like we started having 633 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:28.679 our customer success team meet with our stream aligned teams. 634 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.920 So like what you know, whatever area of the code 635 00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:36.320 that team is responsible for, we would have our customer 636 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:40.159 success reps who are on you know, on the phone 637 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.519 all the time with our customers, come over and report. 638 00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.280 Then basically, in this one hour session, these are the 639 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.599 problems that are being reported to us. This is what 640 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.000 you guys think, you know this is doing are you, 641 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.559 This is what you think the user is experiencing, But 642 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.719 this is what we're hearing. This is where the pain 643 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.840 points are, light bulbs everywhere. And the conversation was deep 644 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:08.039 and rich, and yeah, I highly recommend having those kinds 645 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:10.440 of because you can't always, like you're saying, like, you 646 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.480 can't always have the customer on a call with the engineers. 647 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.519 So it's just another kind of roundabout way, but yet 648 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.719 direct way that they can get that information. So yeah, 649 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:24.800 really effective. 650 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:25.719 Yeah. 651 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:31.559 Okay, last question for you, because, like Matt was saying, 652 00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:34.239 our theme here at the dev life is kind of 653 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:36.480 that beachy, like laid back. We want you to live 654 00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:40.800 your ultimate developer life. And I'll ask this in two 655 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:44.519 different ways. You can answer one of these, but basically 656 00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:50.320 like like, what's one DEVLFE ritual that you that you 657 00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.519 feel like you practice regularly, something that really helps you 658 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.360 to live your ultimate developer life? Or what does it 659 00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:02.199 mean to you to live your old developer life? 660 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.000 Okay, so for ritual, I don't know if this is 661 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:12.360 a ritual, but like my rule when I get stuck 662 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:14.079 on stuff, I think this is a pretty common one. 663 00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:15.719 But like my rule when I get stuck on stuff 664 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.480 is I just sleep on it. That has worked for 665 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.079 me so many times that. 666 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:28.199 I'm still shocked by it because I can be like 667 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:32.760 banging my head against the wall on something for hours 668 00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.719 and then sleep on it and have an immediate epiphany. 669 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.320 So not exactly a ritual, but that is my hard 670 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:44.280 and fast rule for fixing bugs or dealing with things 671 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:48.280 I don't know how to deal with. That's not a 672 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:52.480 very exciting answer. But that's my answer though, because this 673 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.360 underestimated totally. Sleep is so important, so important in my twenties, 674 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:00.880 I was like, I'll sleep when I die, but I 675 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.079 need it, especially now with a toddler. I value it 676 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:06.559 so much. 677 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:09.440 Yeah, no, that is. 678 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:13.159 That is actually some of the best advice I think ever. Like, 679 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.320 every time I'm about to send a communication that I 680 00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:20.280 know I shouldn't, my wife is like, just wait till tomorrow, 681 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:22.920 and yeah, I wake up the next day, I'm like, Nope, 682 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.599 not sending that. 683 00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:27.320 Yeah, good advice. 684 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:29.440 Love it well. 685 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.639 Anyway, thank you so much Nicole for being on the 686 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:35.119 show today. For the listeners here, you can find and 687 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:39.760 follow her on x or Twitter at at ni x 688 00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:45.239 codes uh as the tag and but we also want 689 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.719 to know what you all think. So have you made 690 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.440 the transition from dev to product or dev to manager? 691 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.159 Let us know in the comments, and you know what 692 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:57.840 advice do all of you have for others? Do you 693 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.159 have any other questions? So let us know in the comments. 694 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:06.960 Everyone listening or watching, and we appreciate you for being here. 695 00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.719 And you can also subscribe to get notification when a 696 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:11.880 new episode drops and we would love it if you 697 00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.800 did that, and also join us in person at the 698 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.880 dead Fest for Salt Lake City if you're in the area. 699 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:22.440 It will be on October eleventh, and more inpo to come, 700 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:26.239 but gear up for a one day, four track event. 701 00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:29.239 It will be back to the future style with all 702 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:35.280 sorts of eighties neon glory and yeah, also if you 703 00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:36.800 can come to call, that would be great. 704 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:54.320 Definitely fun, but yeah, this is the dev life. Thank you.