رونوشت کامل EP11: Harnessing the Healing Power of Horses: An Insightful Journey with Belle Shook

the pleasure of being with and riding horses. [00:03:14] Kristen: Okay. So let me ask you, how did these two interests, counseling and horses intersect? [00:03:20] Belle: I actually got to counseling through the back door. I had initially gone to Prescott College and had earned my undergraduate degree in outdoor experiential learning. And then towards the end of that experience I was introduced to, working with horses as healers or, equine assisted learning And I'm not even really sure that I had the cognition or the thought process, "wow, this is really trauma healing. I should go back to. School," but I was aware, that the horses were doing [00:04:00] so much more than anything I had learned in my experiential learning undergraduate degree and that there were layers that I could sense and tap into, but not be able to articulate. [00:04:12] Belle: And so after earning my master's in counseling, I had more questions than answers. And then as I went through each training and certification that was available at a um, postgraduate level, again, I just had more curiosity and questions and was always trying to figure out how it fit into the horse work and what was it really that the horses were doing, cuz I knew it was way beyond anything that we had yet to know and understand on this mass level. [00:04:43] So stick with me because bell is going to share some fascinating stories about how horses and people work together in the therapeutic process. But I wanted to know if what bell was hinting at the profound and even mysterious effects of equine assisted therapy are a [00:05:00] phenomenon that can be quantified. As luck would have it. [00:05:04] I didn't have to look very far to find the answer. Housed within the university of Kentucky's. If center is a researcher named Kimberly Tumblin, who studies this very thing. What happens to humans after they've worked with horses? [00:05:18] while the human subjects of Kimberly's research are a bit different from the people who work with bell, they may have an autism disorder diagnosis be differently, abled or suffer from things like PTSD or other emotional challenges. Kimberly's findings are still very much applicable to Bell's work. And I asked her where her research is pointing. [00:05:37] Kimberly: the concept of functionality I think is really important. Uh, when we look at how horses and humans are interacting and how this is important to the therapeutic process. we've been looking at longitudinal data we're actually seeing that participation over multiple years, you are improving functional outcomes of [00:06:00] these individuals. So it's not just about their disorder that they're having a resolution from, it's actually that they're functioning better in their life. And that's huge for individuals that are challenged, with one condition or another. [00:06:18] This seemed like the perfect place to ask her about the TCOM perspective and for our first time listeners TCOM -- transformational collaborative outcomes management -- is a comprehensive framework for improving the effectiveness of helping systems through person centered care. [00:06:33] Kimberly: So the beauty of the TCOM perspective is that we look at the experience that's going on at that moment, right? What is presented to you right there and I, So I would almost say that horses already live the TCOM perspective, because they're right there in that moment and they are assessing your strengths and outcomes and the relationship that you're gonna bring to [00:07:00] their. [00:07:00] Kimberly: Little world that they're in at that moment. So they're very much in that experience. So in other words, that horse isn't looking at you and seeing your trauma history. They're not seeing that you've been abused. They're not seeing that you've witnessed violence. They're just looking at you and going, are you going to eat me today? Or are you going to be part of my partnership? That's, it's that simple. [00:07:26] We'll hear more about Kimberley Tomlin's research later in the show, but I wanted to get back to bell whose practice is also very much about helping people function and feel better. So belle, between your talk therapy practice and your work with the horses. What is your greatest hope for your clients? [00:07:47] Kristen: My greatest hope and my greatest joy are connected. And what that is is helping people get unstuck from trauma let's stop for a second and [00:08:00] define the word trauma. I dug around and landed on a definition. I really liked. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk author of the body keeps the score. Defines trauma as something that overwhelms your coping capacities. So to me, by that definition, everybody has trauma and everybody might have trauma on a daily or weekly basis. [00:08:21] Kristen: But what separates that from complex trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder? Why do we not get past some of the things that we can't cope with? [00:08:35] Belle: So in complex trauma or complex PTSD that is trauma that happens within the developmental years. So between zero and 18 and it's, it's often very systemic in that it comes from our family systems and /or environment that we grow up in, and it impacts our identity and our relational capacity. [00:08:59] Belle: [00:09:00] As opposed to a shock trauma experience where you know, the person could be 25 or 40 and they have a car accident. [00:09:09] Belle: though the common thread between them is that Trauma always happens in relationship, and then therefore the healing of trauma must happen in relationship. Because I have a-- [00:09:24] Kristen: wait. Can you pause right there? Trauma always happens in relationship [00:09:29] Kristen: so healing must happen in relationship. Just unpack that a little bit for me. What do you mean by relationship? [00:09:35] Belle: Yeah. So, In the example of complex PTSD right, we have a relationship to the caregivers around

us. We have a relationship to our family systems, our schools, our communities. And then when people experience trauma outside of that dynamic, and let's say we're [00:10:00] talking about the example of a car accident, I still have a relationship to my car. I have a relationship to driving, to trusting myself to be able to handle the machine, trusting the other drivers around me. or let's say in, you know, the context of, people who may self-harm, right? I have a relationship to my body and, you know, the act of self-harm. so that's like the relationship between me and me. [00:10:28] Kristen: Is that part of the reason why it's so hard for people to change or to move past traumas? Because it's not just as simple as, recognizing something or wanting to change it, but there's multiple connectors to multiple things that have to be addressed. [00:10:49] Belle: Yes. That's such a good way to put it. There's, there's multiple connectors, there's multiple layers to it. So it's so hard for people to [00:11:00] change because it's not just about insight. It's about helping the nervous system experience greater organization, so the capacity for change can happen. And then also people get used to the patterns that they're in and the way of being that they're in, that even when the change is positive and constructive, it can still feel threatening because it could activate unresolved developmental trauma from a much earlier time. [00:11:34] Belle: So, for example, it's really common that if someone has had an abandonment in childhood, like a, like a parent dies or, some big change happens, that then later in life if they get a divorce, that can feel far more devastating because it can then also activate layers of the developmental trauma that still may be there. [00:11:57] Belle: Peter Levine has a great quote: "trauma [00:12:00] is not about the event, it's about how it lands in the nervous system." so when we go through a traumatic event, it gets our nervous system stuck in either fight, flight, or freeze. or we could also bounce between all three of those. [00:12:18] Kristen: Can you tell me as a lay person when I'm, um, In a fight, flight or freeze or in some loop, like what is happening? What is happening biologically? What's happening emotionally? What? What's happening to me? [00:12:31] Belle: Yes. Yes. So what's happening when someone is in a fight, flight or freeze response is that they can either be stuck on, "on" or "off". So if they're stuck on "off," it's their parasympathetic nervous system. And that would feel more like depression or slow or flat or numb. Uh, feeling of, not really being there, kind of empty [00:13:00] self-loathing. [00:13:01] Belle: Or someone could be stuck on "on", which is the sympathetic hyper arousal. And that's like the gas pedal is going. So it could look like poor judgment, hyperactivity, risk taking. [00:13:16] Belle: And so what's happening too is that the vagus nerve, it's called the wandering nerve in our body and 80% of its communication is from our body to our brains, and so Steven Porges came up with the polyvagal theory and it helped a lot of mental health professionals really understand what was happening in regards to the nervous system. [00:13:46] Belle: cuz so, so often we have approached mental health from the, from a top down place, right? So like, change your thinking, change your behavior, and then you'll feel better. And that's true, except when we have [00:14:00] trauma and 80% of the communication is coming from our body up to our brain. [00:14:05] Belle: and so that's why insight is not enough, because until you support the nervous system in being able to regulate, but then also respond at the right degree, at the right time for the right reasons, it's really difficult to have insight turn into action. [00:14:23] Kristen: Yeah, as you're saying all that, and I'm literally you know, trying to drop into those moments of hyper arousal. Um, it's, it seems like a really complicated thing to achieve in a talk therapy only modality. You are trained in all of these, I don't wanna call them alternative modalities, but maybe sort of lesser known or just things that are coming into, into the mainstream. At what point do you start to blend, [00:15:00] or at what point do you think. I, I need the horses to help me with this. [00:15:06] Belle: Uh, That's such a good question. [00:15:09] Belle: I think that the co-regulation piece is really the foundation of how healing happens, whether it's in a traditional talk therapy way or out with the horses. [00:15:25] Belle: So as human beings, we're not able to regulate our nervous systems as infants. We absolutely must have a nurturing, kind, regulated nervous system to help us regulate our nervous systems when we're infants. we [00:15:45] Kristen: Meaning the mother or the, parent-- a parental, an external regulating system. [00:15:51] Belle: Exactly. It can be a parent. Ideally it's both parents. Um, though, if it's neither of those, then it's a [00:16:00] caregiver, a guardian, babysitter. Right? Somebody that can do that for us. And then once we have, had the experience of co-regulating, then later on in life, as we grow, then we have the capacity and the ability to regulate ourselves. [00:16:18] Kristen: Okay. [00:16:19] Belle: I think that this really ties into, like a mammal's, most primal need is not food, shelter, and water. A mammal's, most primal need is belonging. And human beings have survived the most horrific of circumstances throughout history and even today where there's no food, shelter, water. However, if they have belonging, they have a greater survival rate. So when I think about healing with the horses, the reason it's so much more [00:17:00] enhanced in that environment is I'm-- I'm not gonna say how much I weigh-- my horses weigh about a thousand to 1200 pounds each and

they are collectively between them, almost 4,000, you know, 3,500 pounds of regulated nervous system. [00:17:21] Belle: So they literally then entrain with the client's nervous system and help that person work their way out and through fight, flight, and freeze, and into calm, connected, and safety. [00:17:36] Kristen: So you just mentioned their body weight, but what is it about them? That makes them special and that makes them wired or equipped to do something efficiently and quickly that humans maybe can't do as well. [00:17:55] Belle: So horses are wired for wanting [00:18:00] harmony. [00:18:01] Kristen: Wow. [00:18:02] Belle: Let me say that differently actually. Mammals in general are wired for wanting safety and connection. Belonging. [00:18:10] Kristen: Hmm. [00:18:10] Belle: The reason that horses are so effective at this as opposed to humans, dogs, cats, is because horses are flight animals and they then want anyone who's joined the herd that day to be as emotionally clear and honest as possible. So it becomes a liability for the herd if there's a member of the herd that's either stuck in fight, flight, or freeze. And so then the herd will work collectively or individually to help that person's nervous system work its way out of whichever state it's in, and then into safety and calm and connected again. [00:18:57] Kristen: This is maybe gonna be a, like the dumbest question you've ever [00:19:00] heard, but how did they do that without language? [00:19:02] Belle: That is such a good question because it's actually language that gets in the way of trauma healing happening more quickly. So horses Are engaging from a right brain place, which is our unconscious brain or our nervous system, and that is where certainly complex P T S D gets caught. It gets caught in our unconscious mind. And trauma in general gets, gets stuck in our nervous system. [00:19:36] Belle: And so real healing, whether it's happening in the office with another human being or with the horses, is actually right brain to right brain communication. So that is a bottom up approach. What is the nervous system saying? And it's fascinating to watch the horses engage with people and be able to go to [00:20:00] exactly the place in that person's nervous system that has trauma energy, so to speak, or a place of fight, flight, or freeze. And they, they clear it. [00:20:12] Beth: I was set for a hip replacement, but that was a couple of months away, so I was in pain and kind of hobbling along, [00:20:24] Kristen: That's Beth Quill of Quill consulting by the way, who currently lives in Houston, Texas. And talk to me about her experience at equine guidance. [00:20:34] Beth: and I'd been diagnosed with, um, migraines, so, I had some real healing needs that weren't part of why I was going, but I think certainly impacted, um, my going, [00:20:54] Kristen: She had gone to the ranch, not so much to deal with any recent trauma per se, but. To explore some [00:21:00] big questions that were emerging in her retirement. What she prefers to call the third age, as well as gain insight into the massive changes and losses that occur for lots of people in that stage of life. Wrapping up of one's professional life, the death of friends and loved ones, physical, financial, mental, and relational transitions. Bel explained the three hour process to me. But Beth relived it for me from her first person point of view. [00:21:30] Kristen: So you show up at the ranch, what's, what's the first thing that happens? [00:21:33] Beth: We go into the living room of the barn, [00:21:37] Kristen: Okay. [00:21:37] Beth: of the horse's house, [00:21:39] Kristen: Okay. [00:21:41] Beth: and I'm mindful in my framing now that this is the horse's house. I am a guest in the horse's house. I am not in charge in the horse's house. I am. I'm to just [00:22:00] be, yeah, [00:22:01] Kristen: Okay. [00:22:02] Beth: I have nothing to do. My job, my work is to just be. And so, Belle and I [00:22:09] Beth: had a conversation and we sat in our rocking chairs and she explained to me, how the time would be used and what to expect. [00:22:20] Beth: Meanwhile, the horses are, it's their house. They're in and out, all over the place, talking [00:22:26] Beth: to each other, eating whatever, checking me out. [00:22:31] Beth: And I had to not get into, um, a mindset of I needed to master how to communicate with the horse [00:22:40] Kristen: Yeah. [00:22:41] Beth: because it wasn't up to me. [00:22:43] Kristen: Okay. [00:22:44] Beth: So when Bell, said, I'd like to introduce you to the three horses, and, you may not speak to them and you may not touch them. [00:22:55] Beth: you think about such beautiful animals and you wanna [00:23:00] just move into this space and pat them and talk to them and tell 'em how beautiful and smart they are. And, so the tools that you use to communicate are taken away from you, and your job is just to be. [00:23:15] Beth: the horses are going to do the rest. It's their work to do and I am to kind of work at their instruction and bell's instruction. [00:23:28] Kristen: So do you have a clear recollection of sort of. The first thing that happens now in the absence of language and the absence of task or job, what happens in the horse's house to you? [00:23:43] Beth: I observed the horses and one of the horses approached me. [00:23:47] Kristen: Did that happen pretty quickly? The, the approach [00:23:51] Beth: Yeah, it, it did. [00:23:54] Beth: And Bell said the remark that the horses seemed very comfortable with me being [00:24:00] there. [00:24:00] Beth: She said, they're not anxious or angry or huffing or puffing or checking you out. And so she and I were having a conversation and one of the horses, and I could hear him come out of his stall and he stood behind me and he just breathed on my neck. [00:24:20] Kristen: Oh.

[00:24:22] Beth: And I thought, okay, I'm not, I'm just supposed to be, I, I don't, don't react, don't do anything. Don't. And I didn't. And he did what he wanted to do and he clumped back in his stall. And then I got introduced to the rest of the horses [00:24:44] Beth: And she asked me if I was anxious. I said, no. She said, are you frightened? I said, no. She said, do you feel safe? I said, I feel very safe in the house. I feel safe with the horses. Um, and safe with you. [00:25:00] And so she said, who would you like to work with and why? [00:25:06] Kristen: The horses names are penny Salsa and Mimi. And you had read a little bit about them on the website already. Mm-hmm. Did you, did you have preconceived notions about them having read their bios? No. Okay. [00:25:22] Beth: And she included some funny little thing about each horse, you know, that makes you feel engaged with the horse. [00:25:31] Beth: and who did you choose? [00:25:33] Beth: I chose Salsa who was the male of the group, and he was [00:25:36] Beth: the one that breathed on my shoulder. [00:25:39] Kristen: Okay? [00:25:40] Beth: And when Bell asked me why, [00:25:44] Kristen: Mm-hmm. [00:25:44] Beth: essentially I said, the other two horses were beautiful and wonderful and I liked them and it was good rapport, but I got the sense that they wouldn't make me work. [00:25:57] Kristen: Wow. [00:25:58] Beth: And I don't, I don't [00:26:00] think that's true. [00:26:00] Beth: I think if I were paired, it was, it was where I was and, and probably biased by the fact that he chose me. [00:26:09] Kristen: Yeah, [00:26:10] Beth: So go with success. Um, and, and Bell was able to laugh and she said, well, tell me about that [00:26:19] Beth: And I said, I think that horse is my challenge. [00:26:23] Beth: I just think when we go out in the arena, he's gonna make me work. [00:26:29] Beth: And that's when I came here for not a, an affable experience with a horse, but somebody that was gonna make me work, test me was, was going to show me things unknown. [00:26:47] Kristen: Sure. so how did it go? What happened next? [00:26:50] Kristen: he knew what he was doing and working. I had no clue what he was doing, what he did, [00:26:57] Beth: and [00:26:57] Kristen: into the, you, you go into the arena[00:27:00] [00:27:00] Beth: correct. [00:27:01] Kristen: with him, [00:27:01] Beth: Yes, [00:27:02] Kristen: just you and him. You and him, [00:27:04] Beth: bell is available. Yeah, she's observing [00:27:07] Beth: and, and offering guidance. So some of it was seeing how close I could get to him or he would allow me to get, [00:27:17] Kristen: Yes. [00:27:19] Beth: and then he did some unanticipated things. Like he stood on my right side and just stood there and, and her comment was, what is happening on your right side? [00:27:36] Beth: And I said, well, that's my hip, which is a problem. And you know, she said, oh. And then he went over to the other side and did the same thing. And she said, well that's, that's unusual. I've not seen him do that. And she says, is there anything there? And I said, well, that's where my migraines are on my left side. [00:27:57] Beth: So, so [00:28:00] he was doing his work of. Scanning me, if you will, and finding out vulnerable places. And, um, so I, I was kind of taken aback by that. [00:28:15] Beth: Um, and then he circled the arena a couple of times and I, I didn't know whether to follow or whatever. And then he went out in the middle of the field and he laid down [00:28:30] Kristen: Wow. [00:28:32] Beth: I, I didn't know what to do. And she said, do you know about horses lying down? And I said, all I know is they stand up. Most of the time they don't like to lie down because they're vulnerable to pray. It's so hard for them to get up and down. And that everything I've read is that it's a very profound experience. [00:28:54] Beth: And she said all of that is true. She said, I've only seen it about 10 times in [00:29:00] my career. So she said, I think he wants you to go be with him. So I did. I went and I sat on a stool and I could touch his belly if almost, um, and so we sat there in silence and he looked up at me a couple of times and then put his head back down and he had pulled his legs in, close to his belly. And I thought, well, he, he didn't wanna hurt me, [00:29:37] Beth: I thought if he raised his leg, he could kick me and I'd be gone, you know? [00:29:43] Beth: Um, so we just sat there in silence for quite a long time and then he finally slowly got up and I got up and we walked [00:30:00] back to Bell and she had videotaped it, [00:30:04] Kristen: Wow. [00:30:05] Beth: which was helpful to me because there are things you can't see when you're [00:30:10] Beth: in it that she could point out to me. [00:30:13] Beth: And she asked me how I was and I said, I'm overwhelmed, uh, with emotion. [00:30:23] Kristen: How long do you think you were sitting by the side of the lying down [00:30:30] Kristen: salsa? [00:30:32] Beth: like a long time. But I'm sure that's was because it was very hot and [00:30:38] Beth: I wasn't anxious before. But you know, I had no idea what to do. And, and Bell raised two important questions. Being the good therapist she is, I said, I'm worried about him lying on the sand. The temperature is 103 and I'm afraid his skin will burn. And she said in her very [00:31:00] wise voice, are you used to being in charge? I said, yes. And she said, are you usually taking care of other people before yourself? And I said, yes. So there are so many lessons that I recounted through that experience that I know are my issues to deal with. But it was salsa that drew that piece out. [00:31:34] It was amazing. The emotion of how profound that experience was about trust and his trust in me and my trust in him that it was, there was really. It

was, it was profound. [00:31:55] [00:31:55] Kristen: Six months after her hip replacement. Beth reported that she [00:32:00] was doing great with more mobility than she'd had in years. And that her migraines had diminished. She also said she's more aware of her own red flags when they come up and more able to let things go. Which is a pretty solid benefit for someone who's a self-proclaimed control freak. [00:32:17] I asked Kimberly if the subtle changes Beth reported reflect the findings she sees in her research. [00:32:25] Kimberly: . [00:32:25] Kimberly: Yep. Absolutely. So much of the research has looked at either biometrics, so heart rate, um. Expression of different hormones or absence of certain hormones. So for instance, cortisol is one that's looked at a lot. Oxytocin is one that's looked at a lot as well. [00:32:45] Kimberly: Um, heart rate variability. So what type of excitation they do actually excitation, um, skin. Responses as well. And um, and then there's been functional MRIs that have been [00:33:00] done. So there's been quite a bit of like the science, um. Side of trying to put a biometric or a neurologic functioning change, uh, to the experience that you're having. [00:33:15] Kristen: But on the flip side, there's also been resolution of symptoms that are associated, say with PTSD.But Beth wasn't suffering from PTSD. And I wanted to hear more about that from bell. [00:33:28] Belle: Yeah. I had, um, I had a client who came to me and her mother was schizophrenic and her childhood was truly never safe. And then she got into her twenties and her nervous system acted accordingly and was like, where can I find the most chaotic and disorganized people to hang out with? And then when she got into her thirties, she was like, I really want to have a different life for myself. [00:33:57] Belle: And she got into therapy and. And, [00:34:00] um, a variety of healing modalities. And she said, bell, I have tried everything to try to get this flight feeling out of my heart, and now I'm here with you because I wanna see if this will help. And she worked with salsa, and salsa and the horses are, are really thoughtful about who they interact with, how they interact with them, if they touch their noses to the client's body in some way at all. How far away they stand from the client, how close they stand to the client. I mean, there's, it's, it's all very organic in regards to horse communication and language. And so you can imagine this 1200 pound horse with these four skinny legs, he's trying to back up towards the client and instinctively human beings were like, whoa, the back of the horse, I better move outta the way. [00:34:59] Belle: And [00:35:00] so she kept moving out of the way and he really thoughtfully and gently kept trying to like back up towards her. And I said, you know, I think he's trying to, I think he's actually trying to back up. So let's see what happens if we stand here. Are you okay with that? And she said, well, do you trust your horse to not kick me? [00:35:18] Belle: And I said, yeah, I trust my horse to not kick you. And he literally backed up and pressed his body up against hers. And then he really gently started to rock her back and forth and, They did that for a few minutes and then all of a sudden he just walked off and she was like, that feeling in my heart, that fight, that flight feeling is gone. [00:35:49] Belle: And so the last half an hour of the session was really supporting her nervous system and being able to tolerate and sit with this new [00:36:00] change and to be able to be okay with the feeling of being okay. [00:36:05] AT2020 USB -2: That's amazing. But I feel like salsa is getting all the press here. Can you tell me a story where Mimi or penny is the star? [00:36:15] Belle: Yeah, so I had a session. With a client and her mother had passed away unexpectedly. She was only in her fifties and there was no will or anything in place. And so there was a lot of turmoil that ended up as a result of things not being in place. [00:36:36] Belle: And so on top of the grief of her mother passing. Her family members also lawyered up. So it was sort of this like compounded grief that was happening, and [00:36:50] Kristen: Hmm. [00:36:51] Belle: she knew that she needed to just really take care of herself, especially in the first year. [00:36:57] Belle: And then, At the end of the [00:37:00] first year, she, she just thought to herself, I don't want to be feeling this way anymore. I don't wanna be feeling this grief anymore. And it was sort of like stuck in her body. And so she came out to the horses and she was working with Mimi and she's standing with Mimi. And it's literally as exciting as watching paint dry. [00:37:19] Belle: Like there's not really much of anything happening except a person and a horse standing together. And I'm sitting on the outside of the arena holding space, allowing them to have their time together. And all of a sudden, this dog that I had never seen before runs down to the edge of the arena and starts barking and barking and barking, barking. [00:37:41] Belle: And I thought, whoa, what should I do? Cuz I'm responsible for safety And do I go over there and shoe the dog? And I looked at Mimi and the client, and I thought, well, you know that neither of them are disturbed, and so I don't wanna create a ruckus by getting outta my seat. And then at [00:38:00] that moment, the dog left, and then... [00:38:05] Belle: Equine guidance at the time was on this dirt road and every Sedona Jeep tour you could imagine is suddenly driving down the road and wafts of dust are flying through the arena. And I thought that is just so unusual. And then a few moments later, the wind picks up and sticks are flying out of the trees and. [00:38:28] Belle: Like there's branches falling and,and all the while her and Mimi are just standing. So still together. they were not bothered by any

of this, which is part of how I didn't react and say like, oh, you know, we should maybe pause a session for a moment, or, and when she came out of the arena, she said, I got it. [00:38:48] Belle: even though there's all this chaos going on in my family, I don't have to respond to it. I don't have to engage with it. I don't have to react to it. I can just be in my. [00:39:00] In my balance in my center with myself, with Mimi. [00:39:05] Kristen: Like i can be the calm and the eye of the storm? [00:39:10] Belle: Yes. Yes. [00:39:12] Kristen: Yeah, it keeps, you keep, you're hitting me with the idea of the, the embodied experience that the body keeps the score, the body, the body's holding the trauma. And the body also is the thing that's gonna get the information it needs for the person to make the connection, make the metaphor that works for them, understand the situation from a different perspective, all of that. [00:39:33] Kristen: Um, I'm fascinated cuz I don't think you and I have talked about this before, but like what are your roles? Like it's you and the horses are a team, but you have a certain job in a way, and they have maybe certain other jobs. Can you delineate those, those roles for me a little bit? [00:39:49] Belle: Yeah, so our roles are, that the horse is just behaves as the horse. The horse just is the horse. And my role is to [00:40:00] Pay attention to what the horses are saying and doing, I'm, uh, attentive to horse language, horse communication and so forth. So if, if a horse doesn't wanna work that day, they don't work that day. My role is really about helping the person's logical mind, not sabotage the magic, so to speak, when it starts to happen. Uh, and that oftentimes the more peculiar something is, the more right on track we are with how the horses are in alignment with helping the person create that neurobiological shift. [00:40:39] Kristen: You mentioned something about horses being flight animals and having a need for honesty, like transparency, emotional honesty. What does honesty have to do with this process? [00:40:57] Belle: It really has to do with [00:41:00] social conditioning that human beings teach each other and live among. So instead of saying like, oh, I'm scared, or, or uncomfortable, we don't wanna seem awkward or out of place, or that we don't belong somehow. So then we develop all sorts of survival strategies to be able to cope and push through so that then we can feel like we're still part of the human herd. [00:41:26] Belle: That becomes really uncomfortable to horses. So it's a very common phrase for people to say that horses can sense your fear. [00:41:35] Kristen: Yes. [00:41:35] Belle: However, the truth of the matter is, is that horses can sense all of our emotions and that horses, in regards to being able to to survive often in relationship with humans, have had to force themselves to ignore and not be attentive to what they [00:42:00] know is going on with the person for their own survival strategy. [00:42:04] Kristen: Wow. [00:42:05] Belle: it's really the art of doing nothing really is something, and that is done very intentionally because when there's sympathetic charge in a session, that can actually block the integration from happening. [00:42:28] Kristen: Explain what sympathetic charge means to me, who doesn't know? [00:42:32] Belle: Sympathetic charge can be, it's like action. It's like doing something. It's a verb. [00:42:39] Kristen: Doing, not being, it's, I, I feel really nervous about this, so I'm gonna clean my house. [00:42:44] Belle: Exactly. [00:42:45] Belle: And so in the equine guidance experience, we're actually holding space for the nervous system to be able to come into organization within itself on its own accord, [00:43:00] as opposed to some technique that's being done to encourage or nudge the nervous system or even manipulate it in some ways to coming into greater organization. [00:43:12] Kristen: I've been trying to figure out how to explain polyvagal theory to you this whole time. But I don't think I can do it any better than Belle did it in that moment. But if you're interested in learning more, we've dropped a few links in the show notes. [00:43:26] The other thing that Belle and the horses are holding space for is something far less quantifiable. As Kimberly told me. [00:43:34] Kimberly: you know, the factor that isn't in research that, you know, as scientists we're told, you know, maybe doesn't matter as much is the fun. And yet I still, I still really believe that a lot of the reason that equine assisted works is because people do find it fun. [00:43:51] Kimberly: And so much of, beyond the biometric part. Of research in this area and practice is that [00:44:00] relational. There's quite a few researchers who have been looking at, you know, what is that relational piece? How does that, help? [00:44:07] Kimberly: Those programs that infuse ministry-based, experiences also believe that there's a spirit. [00:44:15] Kimberly: Um, God, if you look at, The indigenous populations. So the Lakota, being connected with the horse is part of their culture and their community. And so it, it speaks to what you're saying about this concept of this connection and this energy that occurs, when you're with the horse and critics of this area will say, well, what, why don't I use a cow? [00:44:42] Kimberly: So, you know, no, to my knowledge, nobody has done research with this. but I think it's a valid question in that, is it all large animals or is it just something about the horse? And I, I have a background with cattle as well, and I'm gonna say it's [00:45:00] the, it's the horse. [00:45:03] Kimberly: The other thing I, I should address too is the, um, indirect effects that. That this has on volunteers and their family members. [00:45:13] Kimberly: And so they get to observe just like I did, you know, as a, as kind of a passive

observer of this experience. But you are getting benefits from it. And that's actually a, um, completely nascent field of inquiry right now that is starting to evolve, is looking at, it's not just volunteerism as an important aspect, you know, of, of doing good for a community. [00:45:37] Kimberly: It's, are you getting. Indirect benefits from interacting with these horses and going through the process with these individuals. And are you able to maybe process some of your history or your, or your challenges in that experience without it again being directed at you? Is that happening and, and my answer is, [00:46:00] yeah, I've observed it. [00:46:01] Kristen: You are with these horses all day. Have you ever gotten the feeling that they've performed their healing magic on you? [00:46:11] Belle: Yeah, Uh, so my son is 16 now, and when I was pregnant, this was, After an ectopic pregnancy that I almost died from, and it was also after several miscarriages. [00:46:25] Belle: And so when I was finally pregnant with my son, I was like, that's it. I'm, this baby is happening no matter what. And. the doctor said, you know, you're kind of high maintenance, so you need to stay in bed all day. And I thought that, that can't happen. I'm way too a d d or something for that. So what I did instead is I would take my chair out to the horses and I'd sit in the arena with them and they would figure out amongst themselves who was gonna work on me that day. [00:46:52] Belle: And it was really classic horse communication, like ears pinning and you know, some teeth showing like, back off. I, I move out of [00:47:00] this space, I wanna work on her today. then what they would do is they would take their great wonderful nuzzle or nose nuzzle that they have and they'd start at my feet and they would go back and forth rubbing their nose. [00:47:17] Belle: Uh, back and forth over my body, up my legs, and then into my stomach area. And then they would do these long focused breaths, and it literally felt like their breath was going into my body and pushing all the ick energy out. [00:47:37] Kristen: Hmm. [00:47:38] Belle: And then when my system was calm and clear again, They would go bang on the gate as if to be like, let, let us out, like your session's done. [00:47:46] Belle: And I would then be able to go eat. So in the mornings, I, I had a really difficult time eating cuz my body was in such shock, so to speak. Right. That's how it felt, that I was like, I know I need to eat. I don't know [00:48:00] what to eat and I, I can't figure out what to eat. And I, and every morning I did this routine where the horses worked on me and then I would go get some food. [00:48:10] Kristen: Is there ever, do they go, ever go into a state where they cannot work with the state of the human that has arrived. I mean, you know, we talked about complex trauma and PTSD and, people having things that are really horrible, you know, in their, in their histories

[00:48:28] Kristen: And I saw as a, as a professor in the classroom, just a huge spike in anxiety and depression, even in a, in a five or seven year period that I was in the classroom. Um, it does seem like that we're at this pitch point of anxiety as a culture. So do the horses ever, ever say like, no, can't do this one, or, [00:48:52] Belle: Yeah, that's a great question. So what I have seen. [00:49:00] Is I've seen the horse working on the client and another horse working on that horse to really just help the vibration or the frequency come into greater coherence. Um, I have seen horses be really thoughtful about, Nope, that's not my person. [00:49:23] Belle: and they make it really clear. [00:49:24] Belle: It's [00:49:25] Kristen: it's amazing to me how communicative they are. In, in a way that's, I don't mean to say not logical, but in a way that's just, so base, it's so primal. It's so unmistakable it sounds like. [00:49:40] Belle: Yes, exactly. It's really just us that needs to listen more. And it's been really interesting over the years as I've listened more and thought, what is it that the horses wanna have happened? Now it's, it's been really fun to watch me evolve because the work's always been there. The horses have always [00:50:00] known. [00:50:00] Belle: It's, it's my evolution that needed to get there. [00:50:04] Kristen: Mm, that's amazing. it, it's always such a pleasure to talk to you. you're, you're just filled with. Kindness and generosity and love for what you do, but for people and horses, and I love getting to hang out and talk to you, so thank you for, for being here today. I do have a few rapid fire questions for you that I, I do at the end of every interview. [00:50:35] Kristen: And the first one is a fill in the blank. Fill in the blank. Change requires, [00:50:45] Belle: perseverance. [00:50:48] Kristen: If you could go back in time and change one thing about your past, what would it be? [00:50:54] Belle: I would be more compassionate to myself and others [00:50:58] Kristen: What is one thing, big or [00:51:00] small you would like to see change in the world? [00:51:04] Belle: that human beings be kinder to each other themselves and the planet and the creatures. [00:51:15] Kristen: What is one thing, big or small, you hope never change? [00:51:20] Belle: The sun keeps coming up every day. [00:51:25] Kristen: Yeah, for real. Actually, I shouldn't giggle. Um, I know that all we all have, we all have access to all three of these aspects. Um, but are you primarily a change maker, a change seeker, or a change resistor? [00:51:44] Belle: I think I'm a change seeker because I see myself as a visionary. Right. So like with the [00:51:51] Belle: horses, I was like, I just know there's so much more going on than what people are, are currently aware of. And how do I explain this without sounding like, I've, [00:52:00] like, I've blown over the new age Cuckoo's Nest and, and so, but you know, when someone is like really visionary, it can be really difficult to ground that and to get it into, into concrete [00:52:17] Belle: okay. This makes sense. [00:52:20] Kristen: When you hear the phrase agent of change, who comes to mind? [00:52:27] Belle: Gandhi and Martin Luther King. [00:52:32] Kristen: What does your next change look like? And feel free to be imaginative, aspirational, or fantastical in your answer. [00:52:43] Belle: So, Difficult question for me to answer. And I think the reason for that is because I think that [00:52:56] Belle: if I was to explain myself as a horse, I'm a, I'm [00:53:00] a workhorse. Like I'm not like the flashy [00:53:02] Belle: Arabian, you know, I'm not the. Run, run, run thoroughbred. I am. I'm the workhorse. I'm the quarter horse. Like the day in, day out, let's just kind of get it done. So the, the change that I see is within myself to answer that question is slow and steady wins the race. [00:53:23] Belle: So it's not so big fantastical like thing, it's just the slow and steady wins. [00:53:31] Kristen: And the race is for you to be full-time equine guidance. Is that the, is that the end game? [00:53:41] Belle: yeah, I think the end game actually is to just really continue to show up in the best version of myself that I can every day. And to continue engaging in personal growth. And by doing that for myself I believe I can then [00:54:00] do that for others. [00:54:02] Kristen: Hmm. If you had to sum up what the horses, Mimi, penny and Salsa have taught you. About change what would it be? [00:54:16] Belle: To be kind to ourselves. Because change doesn't happen through shaming ourselves or beating ourselves up, or it comes through kindness and being gentle to ourselves. [00:54:32] Kristen: I love that. I feel like I love them so much and I haven't met them yet, but I hope I get to, um, I hope we get to come and spend some time on the ranch with you but I thank you again from the bottom of my heart for doing this. You're, you're wonderful. [00:54:49] Belle: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to be here. [00:54:51] Kristen: Thanks also to Beth Quill for sharing her experience at equine guidance ranch. And of course, to Kimberly Tumblin for providing our tea. Come [00:55:00] take away. And giving us a taste of the wide ranging benefits of equine assisted therapy. [00:55:05] Kristen: To learn more about my guests. Check out the show notes on our website shift shift, bloom.com. Or wherever you get your podcasts.