رونوشت 🔗
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A network isn't just making money, but something
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that can demonstrate how different ideas and
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people can come together. The value has to come
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from that layer built around the shows and shared
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mission and message. Enter my guest today. Jenis
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Benelli started her podcast, Democracy Works,
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at Penn State's McCourtney Institute for Democracy
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in 2019. After hearing about a collaborative
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podcast model, she began thinking about how that
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approach could serve shows focused on democracy.
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That idea became the Democracy Group, a collective
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built around collaboration, cross promotion,
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and public education. Adding Brandon Stouffer
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soon after the network began, and together, Jenna
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and Brandon have shaped the democracy group into
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a creator community that supports independent
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shows while giving them ways to learn from one
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another, reach new audiences, and contribute
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to a shared mission. I'm Greg Wasserman, host
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of this amazing show, Podcast Network Insights.
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I've spent 15 years of my career in advertising
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sales. Since 2021, I've been immersed into the
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podcast industry. I believe life is about time
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and relationships. You never know where one conversation
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can lead. I've built a lot of relationships and
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spent a lot of time connecting with podcasters
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of all different sizes, whether the solo creators
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just getting started or, like my guests, the
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heads of networks. If you've ever wondered whether
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joining a network makes sense, how these networks
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actually run, other networks you can ensure exploring,
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advertising with, partnering with, learning from,
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then my goal is to give you a real look behind
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the scenes. so you can confidently navigate whether
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you host, produce, sponsor, or run a network.
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As you listen to this episode, pay attention
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to how Jenna and Brandon create value without
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asking every show to operate the same way. They
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explain how they decide which shows belong, why
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audience overlap can become a problem, how they
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operate their unified feed differently than other
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networks, and how a network website can serve
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both listeners and members. Stay tuned after
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the interview, as there's more to the conversation,
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as I share some of my takeaways. With that said,
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time to learn from Jenna and Brandon. We know
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the name of the show is Podcast Network Insights,
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so I always start with the first question being,
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when you hear the name Podcast Network, what
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does that mean to you? What comes to mind? Jenna
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or Brandon, whoever wants to take it first? Yeah,
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I think for me, and part of the reason that I
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wanted to start the democracy group was to have
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maybe a bit of a different spin on what it means
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to be a podcast network. I think for a long time,
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I thought that it was just all about ad sales
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and making money and not to say that those things
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are not important. I know it's a livelihood for
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many folks in podcasting, but our network is
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set up a little bit differently in that we are
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more like I've described it as mutual aid for
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podcasters. So focusing more on collaboration
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and cross promotion. Many of our shows are produced
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by universities or nonprofits or have their own
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external funding sources. So in some ways we're
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very fortunate that we don't have to rely as
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much on advertising. So for me now, when I think
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about a podcast network, it is really more about
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that. that collaborative sense of it as opposed
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to strictly a business sense. And Brandon? Yeah,
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I think kind of dovetailing what Jenna was talking
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about is because our network is so focused on
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collaboration and the focus of what a lot of
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our podcasts are on, which is democracy, we're
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sort of trying to demonstrate that in how we
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collaborate with one another. a lot of our podcasts
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have different viewpoints
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or like different topics
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that they're talking about, but being able to
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collaborate towards a bigger mission, which happens
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to do with education around democracy and do
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different initiatives. So a network isn't just,
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you know, making money, but something that can
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demonstrate how different ideas and people can
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come together. Thank you guys both. So I guess
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I'll start the conversation here on One of the
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topics you guys both just brought up is the fact
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that your network is backed or the shows mainly
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are backed by universities. So you're like, all
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right, the ad sales, not something we need to
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work about because they're being funded by the
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university. But we also look at where university
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funding is going. So how have you guys figured
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it out? How do we get shows included in this
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network? But knowing that we've got to make sure
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that these shows keep getting funded by the institutions
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that that they're backed by. Yeah, I mean, times
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certainly are tough, not just for universities,
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but for nonprofits. I mean, really for everyone,
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I feel like. But, you know, one of the things
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we look at when we bring on a new show is their
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sustainability, right? So what, in terms of,
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is their audience growing? How are they working
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to promote? their shows, what can they bring
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to the network in terms of new audience or other
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opportunities. And I mean, none of us have a
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crystal ball. So it is entirely possible that
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one of the organizations we work with could pull
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the funding for their show tomorrow. And that
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just is what that is. But I think if that were
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to happen, there would be, I could see one of
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two solutions or one or two paths. One would
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be that the the hosts and the producers and the
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people working on the show would probably keep
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doing it anyway as a passion project or a side
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gig because a lot of the shows are passion projects
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in a way, regardless of if people are being paid
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or where the funding for the show is coming from.
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So I could see people keeping them going just
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because they believe in the mission and the work
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so much. And two, you know, I think that there
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is I think, a sense of collaboration among our
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network members. And, you know, we have actually
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had one of our former shows actually went dark
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because one of its hosts passed away, unfortunately.
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And they had built up a fairly large feed. They
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had tens of thousands of subscribers, which might
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not be big to some people, but in our little
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neck of the woods, that is a fairly large audience.
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And another network member actually absorbed
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that show and sort of merged it with the show
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that they were doing. So they picked up that
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feed and all the subscribers that came with it
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and brought it under their umbrella. So those
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kinds of things have happened as well. And I
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think it all, again, it comes back to everybody
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really believing in the mission and the work
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and wanting to help each other succeed. I think
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one thing that I'll add is not every single one
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of our members comes from an educational institution
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or even a nonprofit organization. We have some
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independent creators as well, and some that are
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independently going and getting advertising on
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their own and making an income that way. The
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nice thing about having that, a variety of different
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creators and where they're getting their funding
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or how they might be sustaining themselves, is
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we often have a network meeting between all of
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the creators in our network to come and say,
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hey, here's how we're growing our show. Here's
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how we might be getting funding. So, you know,
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if one of the institutions like Jenna was saying,
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for whatever reason, doesn't get funding anymore,
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they can start to lean on maybe some of these
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independent creators and say,
how did you go
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about this? How are you still keeping your show
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going? So not only a... variety of ideas, but
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a variety of ways that these podcasts are being
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built. That's a great point. Understanding it's
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not just if anyone's listening is going like,
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all right, I would love to join this network,
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but I'm not part of a university, but I believe
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in the mission. Great. You can still do it. And
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I guess to that point, what is the mission of
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the democracy group? Like, how do you define
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what is a good show? Who's the right show to
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join, to join what you guys are championing?
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Yeah, do you want to take that one first Brandon?
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Do you set up our new show intake process? Sure.
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So at the core of the democracy group, we really
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care about is democracy obviously, but more so
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like educating the general public to people that
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are not necessarily doing this every single day
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already boots on the streets, you know, making
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things happen, but people that are interested
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in it or people that Kind of consume other types
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of media and maybe adjacent and have some adjacent
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interests and by Identifying creators that can
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speak to those people and make these big ideas
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Something that's tangible for them that they
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can grasp on to The more the better so when we're
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identifying who would be a good fit for the network
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We're looking at over their content and seeing
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you know, what sort of topics do they talk about
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we try and? remain nonpartisan. So being able
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to have sides speak to each other, being able
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to speak about the ideas rather than attacking
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one another. But then also who is the audience
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that they're talking to? What sort of things
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are they doing to make these concepts digestible
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for that audience? And that might be in the topics
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we're talking about, but it might also be in
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the channels that they're engaging in. We've
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kind of expanded from just being a podcast network
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to a creator network, looking at YouTube, looking
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at Substack, looking at social media channels.
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And how are they taking these big ideas and democracy
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and making it digestible in those channels? Yeah.
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And just to reiterate, I think for me, the pillars
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I always come back to are a one, a commitment
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to democracy. And like Brennan said, that means
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working across the political spectrum, trying
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to bridge divides, focusing on things like voting
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and civic education, not necessarily like in
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a camp for one candidate or one party or the
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other. And that sense of education, right? So
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not necessarily as much about like being a talking
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head and putting your opinion out there though,
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you know, not to say that there are certainly
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lots of opinionated people on our shows. And
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I think that's one of the things that makes podcasting
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such a successful medium, but just doing it with
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an educational lens in mind. And then I think
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Brandon hit on a really important point there
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about, you know, what topics are maybe adjacent
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to democracy? Because at the same, you know,
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on some level for a subject -focused network
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like ours, it can be really easy just to have
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25 shows all about the same thing that are having
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the same guests on. And then what's the point?
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There's no real discovery there for our collective
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audience. So we do try to look at folks who are...
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you know, looking at different areas, but through
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that same lens. So one example, we're getting
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ready to onboard now a woman named Corinna Belitzi,
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who hosts a show called Care More, Be Better.
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She came up in the social impact space. She worked
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at Nordic Naturals, which is like a supplement
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health company for a long time and now has a
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PhD and does all kinds of work. But she talks
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about climate. She talks about health. She talks
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about those kinds of things. She also
talks about
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voting and civics and some of those things, but
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her audience... I'm going to guess probably doesn't
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listen already to any of our other shows and
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nor does any of our existing audience listen
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to what she's doing or read her sub stack or
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follow her on social. So those kind of partnerships
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that can really help everybody expand their understanding
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and the things that they're interested in, I
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think is where we're looking to go moving forward.
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You know, other examples, we have a show that
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a large part of their audience is technology
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entrepreneurs. We have a show that focuses much
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more locally rather than a national level. So
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each one of the shows, we're kind of trying to
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get just a different lens, a different audience
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so we don't have that major audience overlap.
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And so it sounds like those three different shows,
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I'd go like, where's the democracy group? Like,
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where's the umbrella of what The message is,
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because as you said, Jenna, your example, I'm
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like, hold on. How does that fit into what you
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guys are doing or the mission? Or is it just
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an alignment of like, my show may not be talking
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about just rape democracy and the traditional
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sense, but I believe in that. And so I want to
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be associated with a community, a collective,
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a network. whatever word we are going with, right?
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That's what I love about my show, is you and
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I talk, Jenna, it's like we're less of a network,
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we're more of a collective, but today you've
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looked at it as a different word. So is that
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kind of how you guys are thinking about it? Yeah,
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I think that's certainly part of it. And I would
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say the ethos that underlies it all, no matter
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what the topic is, if it's tech, if it's climate,
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if it's... voting, if it's, you know, some of
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the other reforms that that our shows cover is
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that a really a grassroots bottom up kind of
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approach. This is not, you know, waiting for
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an institution or a leader or an elected official
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or something like that to come and make the change.
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It's no how can we all work together to create
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solutions or at least at least try to work together
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anyway. Certainly not everyone is going to be
00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.919
successful, but I think that that desire to try
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.559
and collaborate to create a better world and
00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.879
more access for everyone, which is a pillar of
00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:59.419
democracy, would unite all of the people that
00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:01.659
we work with, regardless of what topics they
00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:05.179
cover. Makes sense. And if you think about the
00:15:05.179 --> 00:15:08.700
common citizen, They're not thinking about democracy
00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:12.220
in the same way that an intellectual is. An intellectual
00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:13.879
is going to be talking about these pillars of
00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.440
democracy, talking about structures and reform
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.559
and things like that, where the common citizen
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.379
is like, how does this policy apply to me? And
00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:24.480
that's why having these different topics, those
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.100
are topics that people care about. They're topics
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:28.320
they engage in a lot more. You know, the show
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:29.940
that we have coming on, people are engaging with
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.279
their own health. It hits them every day, right?
00:15:32.659 --> 00:15:36.330
So if you can find... ways that democracy is
00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:38.509
associated with that. It gets them interested.
00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:40.750
And they're like, well, I care about this. So
00:15:40.750 --> 00:15:42.610
maybe I actually do want to go vote. And maybe
00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:44.129
I do want to be a part of these movements. And
00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.690
what else is going on? So it's just sort of like,
00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:51.029
I like to call it, you know, wrapping your broccoli
00:15:51.029 --> 00:15:53.669
in chocolate, giving them something that's sweet
00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:55.870
to get them to have the nutritional things underneath.
00:15:56.750 --> 00:15:58.769
Good thing I just had lunch. Otherwise, that's
00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:04.259
dessert, right? Yeah. So then if we look at the
00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:07.960
core non -profits, institutions. I mean, you
00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.740
think about how much red tape there is, like
00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:14.840
how do you guys get new shows, how do you find
00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.700
new shows to join the network when some of those
00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:21.019
shows are like they've got their own
internal
00:16:21.019 --> 00:16:27.129
politics or their own internal views that they're
00:16:27.129 --> 00:16:29.570
like, I'm not sure if we want to be part of that
00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:31.289
because they're already part of the institution.
00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.690
Yeah. I mean, recently, a lot of our new members
00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:38.250
have been people coming to us or people referred
00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:41.809
to us by folks who are already part of the network.
00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.409
So I don't know, we haven't done as much scouting
00:16:44.409 --> 00:16:49.500
as of late. And I think one of the nice things
00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:52.980
about being more of a collective type of model
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:56.940
and no money changing hands is that it does reduce
00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.759
a lot of that red tape. Somebody's finance officer
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.259
doesn't have to get involved or anything like
00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:06.480
that. We work with some very bureaucratic...
00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:09.359
organizations and they figured out a way to make
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.200
it work. I think because they're able to articulate
00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.980
the benefits of joining to whoever the powers
00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:19.599
that be are in their organization. Like their
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.759
show is going to grow more through our network.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.359
They're going to have access to more opportunities.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.089
And even just from a... an interpersonal perspective,
00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:34.230
you know, this can be very lonely work, as I'm
00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.910
sure you know, Greg. So I think our folks just
00:17:37.910 --> 00:17:41.329
appreciate those quarterly meetings that we have
00:17:41.329 --> 00:17:44.210
just to get together and talk about what's working,
00:17:44.309 --> 00:17:46.690
what isn't, what struggles are people having,
00:17:47.549 --> 00:17:50.769
just to, you know, celebrate the wins and commiserate
00:17:50.769 --> 00:17:54.329
the things that are not going so well. I think
00:17:54.329 --> 00:17:57.230
that is often a benefit that people don't anticipate.
00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:00.009
coming in, but ends up being one of the things
00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:02.190
that they appreciate the most about being part
00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:05.660
of it. So you say most of it right now is coming
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:07.880
to referral, and you haven't done a lot in terms
00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.890
of championing the network. Is that something
00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:15.390
you guys look at? I can think about how, because
00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:18.970
we met at the Higher Ed Podcast Conference, so
00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:22.250
be the community you get by a bunch of higher
00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:25.170
eds coming together and understanding. We're
00:18:25.170 --> 00:18:27.390
all trying to do this within our own university.
00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:30.130
Oh, great. Let's us bring this together. So I
00:18:30.130 --> 00:18:32.849
can imagine you championing, hey, how do we go
00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:34.829
to universities and go, you guys should start
00:18:34.829 --> 00:18:38.470
a podcast that covers this topic. And have you
00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:39.930
thought about it? Is that even part of the mission?
00:18:39.950 --> 00:18:42.150
You're like, Greg, I don't even have time. So
00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:44.829
that sounds great, but that's not going to be
00:18:44.829 --> 00:18:46.849
something we are doing from a growth standpoint.
00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.460
Yeah, I mean there are certainly a lot of democracy
00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:54.980
centers popping up at universities I could probably
00:18:54.980 --> 00:18:58.579
name at least ten of them right now, please don't
00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:03.750
ask me to do that, but You know, I think doing
00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:07.829
that, and I talk to folks who are starting podcasts
00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:10.809
at those organizations fairly regularly, but
00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:14.410
I think the danger of bringing on too many similar
00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:16.450
shows or shows from similar organizations is
00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:18.430
what we were talking about earlier, the kind
00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:22.750
of too much of the same for our audience. So
00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:27.769
that's a tricky line to walk because we want
00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.789
to keep in mind what what we're building and
00:19:30.789 --> 00:19:33.130
that we're continuing to bring new and different
00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:35.930
perspectives to our audiences. And that said,
00:19:36.089 --> 00:19:38.670
you know, we do look at every solicitor, every
00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:41.329
submission that comes in and we consider it carefully.
00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:44.849
And if there is somebody out there doing something
00:19:44.849 --> 00:19:47.309
new and different, even if they are at a university,
00:19:47.450 --> 00:19:50.049
we would certainly bring them in. You know, even
00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:52.650
though we have several universities already part
00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:57.220
of the network. And we do a lot. in terms of
00:19:57.220 --> 00:19:58.640
marketing, that's kind of one of the benefits
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:06.039
for our members is we help them to do cross -collaboration
00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.160
and different PR efforts between them and their
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.059
own brands. But we also have the collective brand
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:14.839
of the democracy group. And we often try and
00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.839
take bits and pieces of their content and reuse
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.960
it in democracy group branded content. So for
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.119
example, I put together articles every month.
00:20:24.410 --> 00:20:26.950
based on democracy topics that kind of pull quotes
00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:29.849
from the episodes and then links to those episodes.
00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.589
That gets quite a bit of SEO traffic coming to
00:20:33.589 --> 00:20:37.269
our website, eyeballs on that, as well as, you
00:20:37.269 --> 00:20:40.609
know, when our shows are promoting something
00:20:40.609 --> 00:20:43.190
that's network wide, that's all going out to
00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.829
their audience. So the brand kind of gets pushed
00:20:46.829 --> 00:20:48.670
a lot. And I think that's what's drawn people
00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:51.170
like, oh, this is a really cool group. click
00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:52.809
on it and they're like, holy cow, look at all
00:20:52.809 --> 00:20:55.470
these amazing people from these different realms
00:20:55.470 --> 00:20:57.569
that are, you know, helping to champion this
00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:03.089
mission. Got so many thoughts on that. One that's
00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.609
coming to mind is, is you've got 10, what is
00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:09.710
it? 10, 10 universities that are launching it,
00:21:09.769 --> 00:21:15.349
democracy. What'd you say? Democracy center.
00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:17.029
Center. Thank you. Institute. Yeah. Institute.
00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:20.160
Yeah. So. You don't want to get them all because
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.920
then it's the same voice per se, but where do
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:25.839
you send those people? Like in my mind, I could
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.500
go like, okay, we could have all of them join.
00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:31.799
Cross -promos becomes really difficult, but it
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:33.779
creates that community, that collective where
00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:36.900
you've got now 20 or those 10 institutions all
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:38.640
coming together and going like, we can be the
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.519
supporting group and now we just can't, we can't
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.859
help you on the growth side of the cross -promo.
00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:46.259
We can help you on the podcasting side. How do
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:49.089
you balance that? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that
00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:53.869
we've had that exact situation yet. I think a
00:21:53.869 --> 00:21:56.930
lot of the folks that I talk to at other centers
00:21:56.930 --> 00:22:00.549
and organizations, once they learn how much work
00:22:00.549 --> 00:22:02.450
it is to do all of it, they don't actually end
00:22:02.450 --> 00:22:04.990
up starting their podcast or whatever it is we
00:22:04.990 --> 00:22:08.130
were talking about. So we haven't quite gotten
00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:14.470
there yet. But I think maybe down the line, we
00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:18.329
kind of separate out the... internal like...
00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.789
professional networking aspect from the external
00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:24.630
audience focused stuff. And people, even if their
00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:27.130
show is not part of the ones that are promoted
00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:29.750
in the network, maybe, you know, they could still
00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:32.549
come to our quarterly Zoom meeting just to hear
00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:35.130
what everybody else is doing. Or we have now
00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:38.289
an in -person convening once a year. Maybe we
00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:41.109
expand the audience for that to make it a little
00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:43.690
bit bigger. You know, like I said, these aren't
00:22:43.690 --> 00:22:46.549
things that we've actually been faced with yet,
00:22:46.549 --> 00:22:49.779
but You know, I think this is a very supportive
00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:51.859
community as you probably have already gathered.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.880
So we would never kick anybody completely to
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.019
the curb. I don't think we would, we would try
00:22:57.019 --> 00:23:01.470
to find a home for them somewhere. And it might
00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:05.069
be a good opportunity for them to, to speak with
00:23:05.069 --> 00:23:09.569
their university. I've noticed a few other universities
00:23:09.569 --> 00:23:11.829
have like podcast networks within that's just
00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:14.349
part of their university. I believe the university
00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:17.140
of Texas has one that's like all. shows across
00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:20.680
their different, um, colleges. So it may be an
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.539
opportunity for them to go like, Hey, we're doing
00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:24.920
well here. There's other models out there. Maybe
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.140
this is something we can do in our own institution.
00:23:27.750 --> 00:23:33.150
And that goes to, so if I'm joining the network,
00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:38.670
do I have to like, am I joining a, uh, we are
00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.089
all on the same podcast hosting platform. Are
00:23:41.089 --> 00:23:44.250
we like, how do you create the structure and
00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:47.789
the operation behind. a show that's joining versus,
00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:50.930
back to your example, Brandon, about a show that's
00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:52.329
already in Texas. It's like, all right, well,
00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:53.789
we're going to have to leave the Texas network,
00:23:54.109 --> 00:23:55.890
even though we want to double dip and be part
00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:59.210
of them and be part of yours based on that. Go
00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:03.279
ahead, Brandon. So all of our shows, they keep
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.579
editorial control. They get to stay on their
00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:10.009
own platforms. Our agreement when they come on
00:24:10.009 --> 00:24:13.089
the network is a simple MOU that basically says,
00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:14.750
hey, you're a part of our network. You're going
00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:18.190
to engage in these collaborative efforts. You're
00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:21.470
going to hold space for, you know, other shows
00:24:21.470 --> 00:24:24.750
to be promoted on your show occasionally. But
00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:26.990
they're not locked into just our network. So
00:24:26.990 --> 00:24:29.130
if they want to be part of, you know, the University
00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:31.289
of Texas network and our network, fantastic.
00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:36.609
We're happy to have you. It does create some
00:24:36.609 --> 00:24:39.289
difficulty on the backend though, when we are
00:24:39.289 --> 00:24:41.789
trying to do things like get download numbers
00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:44.930
for everybody. You know, we use the open source
00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:48.390
OP3 dev to basically be able to look at that,
00:24:48.650 --> 00:24:50.950
but I have to trust that their teams are going
00:24:50.950 --> 00:24:52.849
in, putting it in. If they don't, then I'm just
00:24:52.849 --> 00:24:55.630
not getting those numbers for that show. So it's
00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:57.589
a little bit of back and forth that I have to
00:24:57.589 --> 00:24:59.990
work with them to be like, Hey guys, let's jump
00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:01.950
on this, you know, depending on whatever we're
00:25:01.950 --> 00:25:04.900
doing. And I guess that goes to, how did you
00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:06.980
guys start this? Because if we're looking at
00:25:06.980 --> 00:25:11.940
it to the educational side, the institutional
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:14.619
side, but not the operational side, or as you
00:25:14.619 --> 00:25:18.680
just described, the headache of that operation,
00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:20.859
like what made you guys start this and what was
00:25:20.859 --> 00:25:22.759
the basis for the network in the first place?
00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:27.859
Yeah, so I started the show that I host, or I
00:25:27.859 --> 00:25:30.200
should say my colleagues and I at the McCourtney
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:32.319
Institute for Democracy at Penn State started
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:37.839
Democracy Works in 2019, I believe. And we had
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.859
started doing some individual cross promos, one
00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:45.859
-offs with other shows, kind of similar. And
00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:48.940
I was sitting at Podcast Movement that year.
00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:53.579
And I heard Amanda McLaughlin from Multitude
00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:56.779
at a session talking about what they built and
00:25:56.779 --> 00:25:59.640
sort of introducing this collaborative model.
00:25:59.779 --> 00:26:03.140
And I was like, oh, we should do that for democracy
00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:06.900
shows, of course. And so came back with the idea,
00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:09.700
went to my co -host, who also happened to be
00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:13.779
my bosses at the Institute, got buy -in, worked
00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.200
with a colleague to help find the initial group
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.430
of shows. Uh, and then we happened to launch
00:26:20.430 --> 00:26:23.390
like the week that everything shut down for COVID.
00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:27.049
So we were like, we were going to have events
00:26:27.049 --> 00:26:29.630
and like all this stuff. We had these grand plans
00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.410
and then, you know, spent a year and a half on
00:26:32.410 --> 00:26:36.109
zoom, uh, like everybody else did. Um, Brandon
00:26:36.109 --> 00:26:39.839
had come on board by that point, but. Yeah, the
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.599
idea really just came from, one, how to put some
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.180
structure and some process around all the cross
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:50.200
-promotional stuff. And two, how can we expose
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:53.259
audiences to different ideas, different perspectives?
00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:55.930
Kind of what a democracy is, right? People with
00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:58.630
different ideas coming together to not always
00:26:58.630 --> 00:27:00.829
agree on things, but to hash it out and have
00:27:00.829 --> 00:27:03.690
civil conversations. I know that that is not
00:27:03.690 --> 00:27:06.869
always how our political system functions, nor
00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:09.349
our media ecosystem for that matter. But, you
00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:12.289
know, wouldn't it be great if people doing that
00:27:12.289 --> 00:27:15.470
work could all join forces to get some help from
00:27:15.470 --> 00:27:18.930
each other along the way? Shout out to Amanda.
00:27:18.950 --> 00:27:22.970
We had her on episode. What was it, 20? I'm looking
00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:29.309
here, 26. Published September 3rd, so good one.
00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:32.210
But I guess to that point, you heard her. You
00:27:32.210 --> 00:27:36.049
built this slightly different model. So what
00:27:36.049 --> 00:27:38.210
is it that you've taken from her and what is
00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:40.430
it that you've made your own? And also, what
00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:43.069
is it that you've taken from other networks and
00:27:43.069 --> 00:27:44.730
collectives that you've kind of been watching
00:27:44.730 --> 00:27:46.849
and paying attention to and, you know, other
00:27:46.849 --> 00:27:49.430
guests that have been on the show to create your
00:27:49.430 --> 00:27:53.710
own? Version of of your collective network. Yeah.
00:27:54.069 --> 00:27:59.299
Yeah, so one one other I don't know what how
00:27:59.299 --> 00:28:01.500
they describe themselves, if they're a collective
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:04.539
or a collaborative network. But one other one
00:28:04.539 --> 00:28:08.000
that I have worked with a lot is the Hub & Spoke
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.940
Network out of sort of a lot of their shows are
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:15.559
in the Boston area, but they're also very educationally
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.119
focused. Some of their shows are more like public
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:25.799
radio -y. But if you have not had Wade whose
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:28.660
last name I'm blanking on at the moment. I can
00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:30.400
send you all his info, but if you haven't had
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:31.380
him on. Yeah, we're gonna have to get Wade on
00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:36.220
now. He really built this network and is really
00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:38.680
he was trying to do something, you know, trying
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:41.019
to get grant funding and that kind of stuff.
00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:42.640
So I don't want to get too far down the weeds
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:46.519
there, but you know, so I'm taking all these
00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:48.980
models of these disparate shows coming together
00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:55.029
and I love how how multitude really Let's you
00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:58.210
know embraces the the differences and the diversity
00:28:58.210 --> 00:29:01.309
that their shows brings and Encourages their
00:29:01.309 --> 00:29:04.190
hosts to lean into what they're into whatever
00:29:04.190 --> 00:29:08.670
that is and sort of Trust that their audiences
00:29:08.670 --> 00:29:11.069
are gonna come along for the ride if they bring
00:29:11.069 --> 00:29:14.069
on a show that is you know Still kind of in the
00:29:14.069 --> 00:29:16.269
same vein of what they're doing, but maybe a
00:29:16.269 --> 00:29:18.750
completely different topic than they've covered
00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:25.569
before I really like how they do that So yeah,
00:29:25.609 --> 00:29:28.829
those are really the two big ones that I follow.
00:29:28.970 --> 00:29:30.109
I don't know if there are any others that come
00:29:30.109 --> 00:29:33.269
to mind for you, Brandon. Yeah. So I come a little
00:29:33.269 --> 00:29:38.170
bit from a startup background. And so, you know,
00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:40.970
the kind of systems that I like to try and build
00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:44.710
for our network focus a lot on growth. And so
00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:46.970
I'll look at, you know, other networks, but also
00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:50.529
look at things like convert kits or just kit
00:29:50.529 --> 00:29:53.109
now, they have like their creator network with
00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:57.400
the different newsletters and stuff. And so how
00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.839
is that functioning and can we adapt something
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.180
similar to that? As well as in our internal systems,
00:30:05.180 --> 00:30:07.819
we have a lot of like stuff built on Airtable
00:30:07.819 --> 00:30:10.980
to help people collaborate and systems working
00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:14.849
there. So I will try and pick and choose anything
00:30:14.849 --> 00:30:16.869
that's like, this might work for us and how can
00:30:16.869 --> 00:30:19.599
we adapt it, you know, for ourselves? And there's
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.700
another one that's coming to my top of mind,
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.460
Jenna, so I'll flag it for you. But I think in
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:29.660
a previous conversation, you mentioned Marc Lacour's,
00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:34.500
former guest of ours, and OGGN, and how you're
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.599
leveraging
something they're doing within their
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:43.450
network. Yeah, so that is there. I was on a podcast
00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:48.190
network alliance call and Mark was talking about
00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:53.009
how they had set up a mentoring type of thing
00:30:53.009 --> 00:30:57.710
for new folks in their industry to be paired
00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:01.630
with more seasoned podcasters to make their own
00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:04.210
shows. That might not be exactly right. It's
00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:06.910
been several years, but that was the basic idea.
00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:10.880
And I was like, oh, well. we could do that. I
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.819
mean, education is what we do. So why don't we
00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:18.880
help students make their own podcasts? And so
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.359
we started our Student Podcast Fellowship, which
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.559
has been, you know, aside from promoting our
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.220
individual shows, one of the most successful
00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:31.619
things we've done as a network, our hosts love
00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:33.619
it. You know, they love mentoring the students,
00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:37.720
especially those who don't work at universities,
00:31:37.819 --> 00:31:39.480
are not interacting with students. students day
00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.859
to day. The students really enjoy getting to
00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:47.559
meet a lot of professionals and the interviewing
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:50.119
experience, the editing experience, all the things.
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.339
And I'll let Brandon take it from here. He really,
00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:57.000
again, using his background in startups and education,
00:31:57.220 --> 00:32:00.640
put together a fantastic curriculum and has really
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:03.440
molded the fellowship into what it is today.
00:32:03.869 --> 00:32:07.029
Yeah, we're on our seventh fellowship now and
00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:09.809
each time like iterating to help it get better.
00:32:09.809 --> 00:32:12.089
And each time I feel like the applicant pool
00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:15.549
is stronger and stronger for it. Usually we'll
00:32:15.549 --> 00:32:19.069
have about somewhere between like six and eight
00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:21.950
fellows. And most of them will create their own
00:32:21.950 --> 00:32:24.029
podcasts, but sometimes we have teams that will
00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:26.869
work together to create a podcast. And it's so
00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:29.849
cool every time to have them come in. Our first
00:32:29.849 --> 00:32:33.849
session, we usually have our creators from our
00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:35.890
Network come in and talk about the major issues
00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:38.109
in democracy to kind of help them start spurring
00:32:38.109 --> 00:32:40.650
ideas And then they develop their ideas over
00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:43.670
a few weeks. They practice doing interviews.
00:32:43.670
--> 00:32:46.589
They practice with the software They are able
00:32:46.589 --> 00:32:50.170
to engage with the hosts as mentors to kind of
00:32:50.170 --> 00:32:52.609
craft their ideas and like okay Here's how I
00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:55.049
might want to lay out my episode or my season
00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:58.470
and really get a hands -on perspective from you
00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:00.569
know Somebody that's been doing it in the niche
00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:03.130
that they want to do. And then by the end, we're
00:33:03.130 --> 00:33:05.769
helping them learn some marketing things, but
00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:08.589
then helping with their first beginnings of promotion
00:33:08.589 --> 00:33:11.589
to basically set them up on their feet and hope
00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:14.089
that they continue on. And some of them haven't,
00:33:14.089 --> 00:33:15.730
I mean, they're students, they got lots going
00:33:15.730 --> 00:33:17.970
on and they get into it and they're like, this
00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.150
is way more work than I thought I wanted to do.
00:33:20.230 --> 00:33:22.990
It was fun, but no, thank you. And others have
00:33:22.990 --> 00:33:26.109
continued on their podcasts or... joined institutions
00:33:26.109 --> 00:33:27.970
that have podcasts and have taken that over.
00:33:27.990 --> 00:33:31.170
So it's been really cool to see how we've helped
00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:33.869
to influence this younger generation and these
00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:36.930
younger voices to start talking about these issues.
00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:41.799
That's amazing. Do you work with, I guess, since
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.980
once again, Jenna, we met at the Higher Ed Podcast
00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:49.000
Conference where you've got the heads of, I guess,
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.980
comm schools that are building their own podcasts.
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:56.960
And I have to imagine who you're working with
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.640
or not those schools. So do you go and go like,
00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:02.660
all right, let's go back to the 10 institutions
00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:06.480
that are doing the democracy centers, going like,
00:34:06.579 --> 00:34:09.320
all right, do any of these institutions have
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.679
podcasting with their comms? So let's work with
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:13.320
their comms. Or you're like, nope, we'll just
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.579
take it all in -house and help them from there.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.440
Yeah, so Brandon has done a ton of outreach work
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.239
to and and jump in if I get any of this wrong
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:27.760
Brandon to political science departments journalism
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.579
schools Other types of departments like that
00:34:31.579 --> 00:34:36.820
really casting a wide And sometimes we get students
00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:40.340
who are more focused on the politics side. Sometimes
00:34:40.340 --> 00:34:43.699
we get some who are more on the media side, but
00:34:43.699 --> 00:34:46.199
I think that creates a really nice mix and a
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:49.980
nice balance among the students. Yeah, it's kind
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.780
of mirroring the philosophy that we have for
00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:54.500
taking podcasts on where like they're talking
00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:56.760
about different subjects. The podcasts that the
00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:59.860
students end up creating are also in, you know,
00:35:00.139 --> 00:35:02.360
wide adjacent. A lot of times we've had ones
00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:04.159
that focus on technology. We've had ones that
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.619
are like politics and pop culture together. Which
00:35:07.780 --> 00:35:10.940
is again, something that we're trying to, okay,
00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:13.099
how do we get people to swallow this broccoli?
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.840
We got to wrap it in chocolate. And so our students
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.900
are usually better at doing this because they're
00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:21.320
engaged in the media landscape a lot more than
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.280
say Jenna and I are. We are kind of swamped in
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:27.320
the democracy reform and all of this other stuff,
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.940
because that's the institutions that we reside
00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:33.480
in. So it's really cool to see what our students
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.000
create, the types of podcasts, and then how they
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.119
go about marketing at the channels that they
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:41.019
start putting it on. So you guys are doing, I
00:35:41.019 --> 00:35:43.639
mean, if we let anyone listen to the half hour
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.059
we've been talking, it's, you guys are doing
00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:48.659
a lot of work. I know this isn't the full -time
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.659
job of what you guys are describing that you
00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:54.159
guys do for your actual day -to -day jobs. This
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.960
is a portion of it. So how did you push this
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.730
through? Penn State and going like, hey, we should
00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:05.010
be giving you resources to build out this whole
00:36:05.010 --> 00:36:10.030
concept that touches all these other institutions
00:36:10.030 --> 00:36:12.590
and all these other people. Is it just like,
00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:15.090
by us doing that, that helps get the democracy
00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:17.050
measured? And that's where you were able to sell
00:36:17.050 --> 00:36:21.309
it in? Yeah, that's certainly part of it. A slightly
00:36:21.309 --> 00:36:24.849
more cynical take on that is that, you know,
00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:29.909
funders and leadership love something that's
00:36:29.909 --> 00:36:33.389
new and that's unique. And so for the McCourtney
00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:37.150
Institute at Penn State, this was a unique value
00:36:37.150 --> 00:36:41.210
add for us. And it shows that we're being collaborative
00:36:41.210 --> 00:36:45.590
with our peers. It really allowed us to be a
00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:50.829
leader in this space. Democracy Works had the
00:36:50.829 --> 00:36:54.030
luxury of being one of the first podcasts that
00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:56.230
covered the kinds of things we were talking about.
00:36:56.269 --> 00:36:59.110
So we were able to build an audience early on
00:36:59.110 --> 00:37:02.710
just by virtue of being among the first in the
00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:06.349
space. So we already had some credibility coming
00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:12.329
in. Yeah, being able, I think the combination
00:37:12.329 --> 00:37:16.789
of the collaborative effort and the uniqueness
00:37:16.789 --> 00:37:20.550
of it are two things that are catnip to people
00:37:20.550 --> 00:37:24.329
who write checks and make decisions about budgets.
00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:28.730
Yeah. And I think as a network that, you know,
00:37:28.849 --> 00:37:31.829
when the network is helping podcasters to do
00:37:31.829 --> 00:37:35.030
advertising, the win -win situation is very obvious.
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:38.320
when we're building this network that's collaborative,
00:37:38.420 --> 00:37:40.500
you have to look at, okay, what's the institutional
00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:43.780
goals? And how is this now a value add to that?
00:37:43.780 --> 00:37:46.440
And how can we frame this as a value add to that?
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:49.500
Even, you know, when I want to do smaller initiatives
00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:51.599
or like, hey, I want to market in this way, Jenna,
00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:54.260
I'm trying to say, okay, how is this a win -win
00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:56.940
for the institution, for our podcasters, for
00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:59.559
our listeners? So if anyone that's listening
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:01.719
that's running a network, since your network
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:05.510
is very unique, as we just discussed, like, What
00:38:05.510 --> 00:38:07.989
advice would you say, regardless of the network
00:38:07.989 --> 00:38:10.570
they're running, that you've learned that they
00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:12.989
could take on and go like, oh, those were good
00:38:12.989 --> 00:38:16.090
learnings, and then flip side, what are the things
00:38:16.090 --> 00:38:20.269
you shouldn't be doing, but it's universal beyond
00:38:20.269 --> 00:38:23.889
just what is unique to the democracy group? So
00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:27.610
I would say definitely thinking about, I don't
00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:30.650
think everybody could do a fellowship like what
00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:34.349
we have, but finding ways to help up and coming
00:38:34.349 --> 00:38:36.590
podcasters and creators. And it doesn't have
00:38:36.590 --> 00:38:38.949
to be students. It could be professionals more
00:38:38.949 --> 00:38:41.610
like the oil and gas network, or it could be
00:38:41.610 --> 00:38:44.530
any other number of combinations depending on
00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:48.889
the field. But I think that Everybody likes to
00:38:48.889 --> 00:38:51.809
help other people on some level and people like
00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.869
to share what they've learned. And that's also
00:38:55.869 --> 00:38:57.869
the kind of thing that a lot, like I just said,
00:38:57.969 --> 00:39:00.829
a lot of funders are interested in. So if you
00:39:00.829 --> 00:39:04.389
are interested in pursuing grant funding or maybe
00:39:04.389 --> 00:39:08.510
a sponsor would be interested in supporting that
00:39:08.510 --> 00:39:12.250
kind of work, anything that's educational in
00:39:12.250 --> 00:39:16.570
nature is often appealing there. Um, and then
00:39:16.570 --> 00:39:20.030
I think as far as like what not to do, we kind
00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:23.289
of learned the hard way about having too many
00:39:23.289 --> 00:39:26.610
shows that were similar to each other. Um, in
00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:29.510
the beginning, you know, we were not as mindful
00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:32.389
about that and we started to see the same guests
00:39:32.389 --> 00:39:35.710
coming on and the same topics and we were like,
00:39:35.909 --> 00:39:38.670
okay, we need to. pump the brakes on this a little
00:39:38.670 --> 00:39:41.510
bit and really think strategically about who
00:39:41.510 --> 00:39:44.329
we're bringing on and how we're going to grow.
00:39:45.349 --> 00:39:47.530
So I'm sure everybody listening to this is already
00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:50.530
doing some version of that. But I think it can
00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:53.389
be tempting, especially if you have a lot of
00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:56.190
people coming to you saying, hey, I want to join.
00:39:56.550 --> 00:39:58.809
Like, that's flattering on some level, right?
00:39:58.829 --> 00:40:02.429
It's always nice to hear those things. And, you
00:40:02.429 --> 00:40:06.110
know, it can be easy to get caught up in that.
00:40:06.949 --> 00:40:10.289
So just keeping that broader vision in mind of
00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:12.230
who you're already reaching, who you want to
00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:15.590
reach, and can these new potential network members
00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:19.000
help you get there? Yeah, and I'll add two things.
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.099
So the first is something that's really successful
00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:25.420
is what the network was first built on, which
00:40:25.420 --> 00:40:28.579
is cross promotion, that cross collaboration.
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:33.139
But more specifically, I say this all the time
00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:35.579
to anybody I'm talking about on podcasting is
00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:38.360
think about where your listeners are and engage
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.179
them where they are. And for the majority, that's
00:40:41.179 --> 00:40:44.480
going to be on podcasts. So the best way to market
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.500
and grow is marketing to them when
they're listening
00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:49.260
to a podcast. You can do that paid advertising,
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:51.280
you could do that cross collaboration, whatever
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:54.659
it is, that tends to work the best for us. When
00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:56.739
you start going into the other marketing channels,
00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:59.900
social media, whatever, it's very hard to convert
00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:02.610
them over. And we've tried to do... dozens of
00:41:02.610 --> 00:41:04.389
different things and see how they convert over,
00:41:04.650 --> 00:41:08.530
it just doesn't happen as well. But the second
00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:11.429
thing, and this kind of leads into it, is expanding
00:41:11.429 --> 00:41:14.349
your idea, especially these days of what a podcaster
00:41:14.349 --> 00:41:16.469
is. And this is why we're kind of shifting to
00:41:16.469 --> 00:41:20.550
a creator network and keeping that philosophy
00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:23.090
of engaging people where they are. So if people
00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:26.130
want to be watching a video, how can we take
00:41:26.130 --> 00:41:29.510
our podcast content and make it digestible in
00:41:29.510 --> 00:41:31.949
video form? Or if people want to be reading,
00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:34.429
how do we make it digestible in that form can
00:41:34.429 --> 00:41:37.650
engage the audience there. And maybe after, you
00:41:37.650 --> 00:41:39.610
know, 50 times they've seen this podcast come
00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:41.110
up in their newsletter and so on and so forth,
00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:43.190
they're like, okay, maybe I do want to go listen
00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:46.570
to it. And you expand, you know, downloads there.
00:41:46.730 --> 00:41:49.329
But for us, our main, one of our main goals is
00:41:49.329 --> 00:41:51.389
that education, that awareness of democracy and
00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:53.730
this stuff. So whatever form that happens to
00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:56.889
be in is okay with us. Now, those are great points,
00:41:56.889 --> 00:42:01.420
which brings to mind. Two questions. One, when
00:42:01.420 --> 00:42:04.320
we go back to your show, Jenna, that you started
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.239
this network from, and then you guys said how
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.280
you added all these shows that are very similar.
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:13.039
Did you guys ever decide or think, and maybe
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.340
it's something you'll do later, you did earlier,
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.239
like a universal feed? It's like, okay, let's
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:21.980
bring everyone into the democracy group. feed,
00:42:21.980 --> 00:42:24.099
and you just have everyone's show in there with
00:42:24.099 --> 00:42:26.539
the ultimate goal of stifing them off to their
00:42:26.539 --> 00:42:28.579
own individual, which a couple of the networks
00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:30.340
that have been on our show have talked about.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.619
Have you guys done that, found that successful
00:42:32.619 --> 00:42:37.130
or not even tested it? Yeah, we have one. Brandon
00:42:37.130 --> 00:42:40.769
really runs it day to day. So I'll let him talk
00:42:40.769 --> 00:42:44.090
about how he curates it and how it's set up and
00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:47.440
all of that. Yeah, so this was actually an idea
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:51.050
that we got, again, from the podcast. podcast
00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:52.989
network Alliance. I think they had started to
00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:54.849
do one of the, I can't remember which network,
00:42:54.869 --> 00:42:56.750
but they had started to do a single feed like
00:42:56.750 --> 00:42:58.389
that where it just feeds in all the podcasts
00:42:58.389 --> 00:43:01.690
from their network. And so I started one for
00:43:01.690 --> 00:43:04.090
the democracy group. Ours is a little more curated.
00:43:04.289 --> 00:43:07.090
It's only two to three episodes from across the
00:43:07.090 --> 00:43:09.170
network for the week rather than all of them
00:43:09.170 --> 00:43:13.130
feeding in. And the reason for that is all of
00:43:13.130 --> 00:43:15.250
our podcasts have different publishing schedules.
00:43:15.949 --> 00:43:19.309
So if we didn't do that, you might have one that's
00:43:19.309 --> 00:43:21.989
feeding in a couple. you know, every week and
00:43:21.989 --> 00:43:24.110
one that doesn't show up for, you know, a month.
00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:26.650
Some of them have seasons. You don't, this way
00:43:26.650 --> 00:43:30.869
you kind of get a fairness across the podcast,
00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:36.190
if you will. Similarly, I don't have a tool that
00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:38.349
automatically does it. I'm the one dropping in
00:43:38.349 --> 00:43:41.789
the episodes. So workload, just being able to
00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:45.670
do a few helps out a lot. But we try and take
00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:48.469
that same concept to our other channels as well.
00:43:48.869 --> 00:43:55.059
So our. network newsletter has a similar concept,
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.380
as well as like the articles I write, they kind
00:43:57.380 --> 00:44:00.300
of feed in excerpts from this. So any way we
00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:03.000
can feature all of the shows in like that, we
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.320
try and do. And then the other question, which
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.199
builds off of that, Brandon, is you've mentioned
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:11.980
just now, but also earlier in our conversation
00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:14.659
about the website. So what would you guys say
00:44:14.659 --> 00:44:17.340
to networks if we think about it? I think I actually
00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:20.570
just wrote a post about this recently. You know,
00:44:20.670 --> 00:44:23.449
some networks, it's just logos on a page, and
00:44:23.449 --> 00:44:27.250
some it's actually the content and it's the housing,
00:44:27.250 --> 00:44:29.889
the information. Now, for you guys, like, you
00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:32.190
don't own the feeds for those shows. Each of
00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:34.090
those shows is part of their own institution
00:44:34.090 --> 00:44:38.070
or privately. How have you gone about building
00:44:38.070 --> 00:44:41.289
a website function and also getting the funding
00:44:41.289 --> 00:44:43.630
or the backing behind that? Was that all sold
00:44:43.630 --> 00:44:47.829
into PSU to get that? Especially since it's all
00:44:47.829 --> 00:44:51.690
on your shoulders, it seems like, Brandon. So
00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:53.949
one idea is, again, look at the marketing channel
00:44:53.949 --> 00:44:56.570
and like, what is the objective of the person
00:44:56.570 --> 00:44:59.309
visiting that thing? On the internet, people
00:44:59.309 --> 00:45:02.769
are looking for information mostly. So a lot
00:45:02.769 --> 00:45:05.690
of our pages on our website are very informational
00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:07.710
about democracy topics. And it just so happens
00:45:07.710 --> 00:45:10.769
that that information comes from our dozens of
00:45:10.769 --> 00:45:12.250
experts and stuff that are interviewed on these
00:45:12.250 --> 00:45:14.750
podcasts. That means when they come, they're
00:45:14.750 --> 00:45:16.469
going to probably consume it, but some are going
00:45:16.469 --> 00:45:19.519
to be interested in diving in more. Or the other
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:21.199
thing they're coming to do is to learn about
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.460
the democracy group, in which case having all
00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.239
our shows, having the different places you can
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.880
find those shows, having information about our
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:31.519
creators and who they are, because we have people
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.539
come and like, I need a speaker for our event.
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.519
I'd love to have one of your podcasters. And
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:39.920
we have shows coming like I want to collaborate
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:41.840
in some way. They may not be democracy focused,
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:43.960
but you know, they want to do cross promos. So
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.019
think about your different audience members.
00:45:46.269 --> 00:45:48.929
Uh, coming in and Jenna, I'll let you speak to
00:45:48.929 --> 00:45:52.030
the kind of the funding and stuff. Yeah. I mean,
00:45:52.190 --> 00:45:54.489
so it's really just part of the funding that
00:45:54.489 --> 00:45:57.469
we get from the McCourtney Institute. It really
00:45:57.469 --> 00:45:59.909
is of all the things I had to sell. It was probably
00:45:59.909 --> 00:46:03.530
the least, uh, the least, uh, intensive, uh,
00:46:03.530 --> 00:46:06.699
but just because it is, um, you know, everybody
00:46:06.699 --> 00:46:09.760
wants their stuff out there. This helps get visibility
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:13.579
for the Institute and all of that. And thanks
00:46:13.579 --> 00:46:16.000
to a lot of the work that Brandon's done and
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.860
the expertise in that area, I know that he tells
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:22.800
me all the time we have high domain authority.
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.599
I'll let him explain what that is and how he
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:28.440
built it. But the fact that we link out to a
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.199
lot of our shows, part of the MOU, we require
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:34.219
them to link back to us. So... Not only does
00:46:34.219 --> 00:46:36.179
it help the individual shows grow, but it helps
00:46:36.179 --> 00:46:40.800
boost the authority that the network has on the
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.920
internet and hopefully elsewhere too. Yeah. So
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.719
like the quick dirty version of it is when a
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.079
show joins us, they sign the MOU that they'll
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.440
be linking our show in their show notes and on
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.400
their websites. And luckily show notes get populated
00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.539
everywhere because of all the different podcasting
00:46:59.539 --> 00:47:04.420
platforms. Having links back to our website boosts
00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:06.940
the domain authority so that when somebody searches
00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:09.519
How do I do voting in Michigan or something and
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.639
we might have an article for it ours is more
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.500
likely to be shown at the top And because we
00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:18.460
have 20 different, you know podcasts in our network
00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:21.099
currently that means our links are everywhere
00:47:21.099 --> 00:47:23.519
So it's really really easy for us to get put
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.280
at the top for this type of information So we've
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:28.280
had a couple guests and I think it's a common
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.039
theme that I'm starting to hear but not really
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.300
universal based on a lot of the guests we've
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:36.320
had of like the power of a website for a network,
00:47:36.420 --> 00:47:39.000
the power. But I mean, it requires quite a bit
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:42.179
of effort at the same time as you're demonstrated
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:44.920
just by, you know, not only having a name of
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.559
the democracy groups, you know, props on domain
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:50.840
authority there, but also being able to index
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:52.820
so that if someone's doing a search, whether
00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:55.579
they find your website or they find You know,
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:58.960
the individual podcaster or their substack, whatever
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:02.300
the content may be, at least it gives more authority
00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:06.059
that as a collective helps, I guess, overall,
00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:12.059
right? Yeah. And we have the bonus, the way that
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.920
ranking is starting to happen now is a lot more
00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.599
of looking at authority, like actual intellectual
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:19.260
authority. And we happen to have a bunch of people
00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:21.539
from institutions and experts and all of this
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:24.420
that have lots of titles behind their name, lots
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.059
of you know, depth of work. So we're more likely
00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:30.079
to get pulled for things like AI overview in
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.619
Google and being pulled for the AI engines as
00:48:32.619 --> 00:48:35.820
well. There is a value there. Well, I guess as
00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:38.840
we're coming up on time here and our time together,
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:41.539
the last question I would kind of ask before
00:48:41.539 --> 00:48:44.380
we go into the standard ones is, where do you
00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:46.679
see things as you guys are moving into from a
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.199
collective and network to a creator community?
00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:51.880
But where do you see things for the next year
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.739
to three years? the landscape shifting. Yeah,
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:58.119
I mean, I think like we've said a couple of times,
00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:02.420
focusing on bringing in people that are doing
00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:04.679
the same kind of work, but maybe don't have a
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.159
podcast at all, or the podcast is not their primary
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:11.099
focus. You know, people who are on TikTok or
00:49:11.099 --> 00:49:14.840
Instagram or Substack or the many other platforms
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:17.179
out there and thinking about, you know, what
00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:21.309
is cross promo? look like there? If somebody
00:49:21.309 --> 00:49:24.889
does primarily have a podcast, how do you make
00:49:24.889 --> 00:49:28.650
that equitable so it's worth it for both people
00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:33.230
to collaborate that way? How does it change the
00:49:33.230 --> 00:49:37.690
conversations that we as a network have? If people
00:49:37.690 --> 00:49:40.389
want to get on and just talk about podcast downloads
00:49:40.389 --> 00:49:42.590
and hosting platforms and whatever, if somebody
00:49:42.590 --> 00:49:46.289
is only on Instagram or YouTube, they're going
00:49:46.289 --> 00:49:48.690
to have a completely different conversation.
00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:51.929
So just thinking about both internally and externally,
00:49:52.170 --> 00:49:54.949
you know, how we onboard those folks in the smoothest
00:49:54.949 --> 00:49:58.510
way possible and making sure that we're bringing
00:49:58.510 --> 00:50:02.349
our audience along. as well. I think those are
00:50:02.349 --> 00:50:04.710
going to be the biggest things. And then, of
00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:08.309
course, we'll have another presidential election
00:50:08.309 --> 00:50:10.690
coming up. We'll certainly have the
midterms
00:50:10.690 --> 00:50:13.909
here in just about six weeks or so as we're recording
00:50:13.909 --> 00:50:18.349
this. But the next presidential election, that's
00:50:18.349 --> 00:50:21.090
always when interest in the things that we cover
00:50:21.090 --> 00:50:24.449
tends to be the highest. So how can we capitalize
00:50:24.449 --> 00:50:30.159
on that? both on all the different podcast platforms,
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:34.719
but elsewhere. What can we do when there's that
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:36.639
little window of time when people might want
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:38.619
to eat a little more of that broccoli than they
00:50:38.619 --> 00:50:41.400
do the other three and a half years that there's
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:43.820
not a presidential election cycle happening?
00:50:44.059 --> 00:50:46.940
So being mindful of that as well. Well, I guess
00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:49.639
that goes into a great question that I usually
00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:53.809
wrap up with. We know podcasting there's so many
00:50:53.809 --> 00:50:55.849
out there as you're talking about finding the
00:50:55.849 --> 00:50:59.050
right piece of content as we're coming into Midterms
00:50:59.050 --> 00:51:01.769
like what's one show besides your own because
00:51:01.769 --> 00:51:03.630
we've already talked about it That you would
00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.429
recommend that more people should be listening
00:51:05.429 --> 00:51:09.030
to a question for both of you Give more listeners
00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:12.889
more things to listen to yeah, so one that that
00:51:12.889 --> 00:51:16.480
I really like that is not part of our network,
00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:18.079
though they've collaborated with some of the
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.079
shows on our network. It's called This Day. It
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:23.440
used to be called This Day in esoteric political
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.139
history, but for reasons you can imagine, they
00:51:26.139 --> 00:51:30.179
dropped the last part of that title. It's a couple
00:51:30.179 --> 00:51:33.619
of historians, like academic historians, that
00:51:33.619 --> 00:51:36.440
look at different events throughout our political
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.519
history, but it's done in very much like a chat
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.659
show format, like a couple of people sitting
00:51:41.659 --> 00:51:44.619
around talking over drinks or coffee or what
00:51:44.619 --> 00:51:46.659
have you, they have a really good rapport, but
00:51:46.659 --> 00:51:51.440
they also know their stuff. So, you know, I often
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.440
listen to, you know, what they're saying about...
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.380
different things in history and most of our shows
00:51:56.380 --> 00:51:59.480
focus in our network focus on more like what's
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:02.559
happening right now and less so on on the history.
00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:05.760
So it's interesting to get that historical perspective.
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.000
And I just want to also circle back to I mentioned
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:11.800
the hub and spoke collective earlier. It's Wade
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.460
Roush is who I was thinking of. So sorry, Wade,
00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:17.320
I forgot your last name. If you happen to listen
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.400
to this, but definitely the shows in hub and
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:23.179
spoke are fantastic as well if you like thoughtful
00:52:23.179 --> 00:52:28.070
content. Awesome. And I will promote one of our
00:52:28.070 --> 00:52:30.849
podcasts, which is Future Hindsight. And their
00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:33.030
kind of like core mission is how to be a more
00:52:33.030 --> 00:52:36.730
engaged citizen. And they often take these big
00:52:36.730 --> 00:52:39.730
ideas and like make it bite size for you. Like
00:52:39.730 --> 00:52:41.949
how can I actually engage in some of these topics?
00:52:42.030 --> 00:52:46.769
How can I do anything? And they cover a lot of
00:52:46.769 --> 00:52:49.550
different areas that people probably care about
00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:53.159
a lot. Mila Atmos, the host is... Wonderful,
00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.559
very thoughtful, asks very great questions, and
00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.480
usually has very insightful guests as well. So
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:01.800
I would check out Future Hindsight. Amazing.
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.579
We'll have those on the show notes. And then
00:53:03.579 --> 00:53:05.900
the last question is, well, we talk about podcast
00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:08.739
discovery being difficult, but no one complains
00:53:08.739 --> 00:53:13.380
that there's too many books. Right? So what's
00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:16.059
one book, whatever you want that book to be,
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.960
that you would recommend listeners check out?
00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:23.579
So that's interesting you phrase it that way
00:53:23.579 --> 00:53:26.239
I'm in the process of wrapping up my first book
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:28.760
So I've been thinking about that a lot in the
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:32.219
relationship between podcasts and books and and
00:53:32.219 --> 00:53:39.340
discover ability One book So one that has really
00:53:39.340 --> 00:53:43.360
informed my thinking about the the space that
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:45.559
we're in it's called breaking the two -party
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.969
doom loop by Lee Drutman, who's a scholar, and
00:53:49.969 --> 00:53:53.710
his show, Politics in Question, is part of our
00:53:53.710 --> 00:53:56.989
network. But as the name suggests, it talks about
00:53:56.989 --> 00:54:00.030
the problems of the two -party system in America
00:54:00.030 --> 00:54:03.789
and how that sort of spreads out to the rest
00:54:03.789 --> 00:54:06.349
of the aspects of our politics and the problems
00:54:06.349 --> 00:54:11.099
it creates and some potential... solutions to
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.900
that. So if you've been
frustrated by gridlock
00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.980
in politics and want to understand how we got
00:54:16.980 --> 00:54:20.340
here and where we can go moving forward, that
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:23.449
is a good one to check out. The one that I'll
00:54:23.449 --> 00:54:27.409
share will help both in this realm and any realm,
00:54:27.469 --> 00:54:29.869
which is nonviolent communication by Marshall
00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:32.429
Rosenberg. And the reason I bring that up is
00:54:32.429 --> 00:54:34.650
because a lot of times it's very difficult to
00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:37.050
be talking with somebody that you don't agree
00:54:37.050 --> 00:54:41.309
with. You don't agree with their ideas, which
00:54:41.309 --> 00:54:45.030
is the basis of democracy, right? We have to
00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:46.949
learn how to govern with people that we don't
00:54:46.949 --> 00:54:50.590
necessarily agree with. But what's nice about
00:54:50.590 --> 00:54:52.809
nonviolent communication is there's both talking
00:54:52.809 --> 00:54:54.929
about, you know, the objective logical side of
00:54:54.929 --> 00:54:57.050
things, but the feelings that underlie it as
00:54:57.050 --> 00:54:59.829
well, which in the research around democracy,
00:55:00.030 --> 00:55:03.420
we find people wrapping their ideas into their
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:05.199
identity and then they get emotional about it.
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:07.199
And that's really what causes the butting heads.
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.699
So if you're able to separate those, be able
00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:12.340
to talk to others about them, we no longer have
00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:15.000
to do the us versus them. We can see them as
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.320
humans. Oh, they have the same feelings as I
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:20.559
do, even though their ideas are different. Well,
00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:22.820
Brandon, Jenna, this has been great. There's
00:55:22.820 --> 00:55:25.969
a lot to unpack. for myself, but also anyone
00:55:25.969 --> 00:55:29.190
that's listening and new people to go reach out
00:55:29.190 --> 00:55:31.690
to and bring on the show. But I appreciate both
00:55:31.690 --> 00:55:34.269
of you guys taking the time and joining me here
00:55:34.269 --> 00:55:53.949
on Podcast Network Insights. Thank you. audience
00:55:53.949 --> 00:55:57.130
and platforms, and goals. The answer for the
00:55:57.130 --> 00:55:59.309
democracy group was a shared operating layer.
00:55:59.949 --> 00:56:02.449
Independent shows keep their feeds, platforms,
00:56:02.650 --> 00:56:05.349
and editorial control, while the network creates
00:56:05.349 --> 00:56:08.110
a structure for cross -promotion, shared content,
00:56:08.590 --> 00:56:11.809
meetings, and discovery. Unique ways to approach
00:56:11.809 --> 00:56:14.349
things. And here's a few other things that I
00:56:14.349 --> 00:56:17.500
took away from this conversation. First, describing
00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:19.719
the risk of having too many similar shows in
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.690
one network. At first, adding another show can
00:56:22.690 --> 00:56:25.789
feel obvious growth. But when the same guests
00:56:25.789 --> 00:56:28.690
and topics keep appearing, the network gives
00:56:28.690 --> 00:56:31.650
the audience less to discover. More shows can
00:56:31.650 --> 00:56:33.889
weaken the overall message if they don't add
00:56:33.889 --> 00:56:36.329
a different audience, topic, or perspective.
00:56:37.170 --> 00:56:39.630
I asked Jenna to expand on this, so what works
00:56:39.630 --> 00:56:41.829
for them might be different for another network.
00:56:42.789 --> 00:56:45.269
Second, how the network's mission can help support
00:56:45.269 --> 00:56:48.840
its funding. Network gave Penn State's McCartney
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.119
Institute something collaborative and distinctive
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.139
to point to. The student fellowship also creates
00:56:54.139 --> 00:56:56.420
educational value that funders and institution
00:56:56.420 --> 00:56:59.159
leaders can understand. Doesn't mean funding
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:02.760
is automatic, but mission -based work can have
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:05.579
real place in an institution's budget when the
00:57:05.579 --> 00:57:08.880
value is clear. Jenny even said this was one
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:11.280
of the easiest things that she's been able to
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:15.179
push through in the institution. Third, The network's
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:17.699
website doesn't need to become the central home
00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:21.179
for every show. Each podcast can keep its own
00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:24.239
platform, but the network sites organizes topic
00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:27.300
-based articles, creator information, and links
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.659
to shows. Those links also build domain authority
00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:33.760
over time. That expands the reach of the content
00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:36.360
without requiring everyone to move onto one system.
00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:39.599
It also means the network's name and website
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:43.000
matter more than a single logo page. Truly something
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.460
worth considering for your own network. If an
00:57:45.460 --> 00:57:47.659
institution can make it happen, what's stopping
00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:51.420
you from doing it yourself? Fourth, and this
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.559
one I love, the student fellowship felt especially
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:56.900
distinctive. Yes, I know they grabbed it from
00:57:56.900 --> 00:58:00.000
one of our former guests, Marc Lacour, but creating
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.380
a structure where student practice interviews,
00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:05.780
editing, marketing, show development with working
00:58:05.780 --> 00:58:08.539
podcasters as mentors. Some continuing their
00:58:08.539 --> 00:58:11.280
podcast others bring those skills into institutions
00:58:11.280 -->
00:58:14.340
worth existing shows It gives a network a role
00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:17.480
in developing future creators not only promoting
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:20.840
current ones Might not be possible for all networks,
00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:24.159
but I know many who could find this as a viable
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:27.739
option to explore So I urge you to there's a
00:58:27.739 --> 00:58:29.519
lot in there to sit with and I'm curious what
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.639
you learned once again Thank you for tuning in
00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:35.320
The show wouldn't be possible without some amazing
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.300
companies and sponsors, so I must say thank you.
00:58:38.869 --> 00:58:40.889
The show is produced by the amazing, incredible
00:58:40.889 --> 00:58:42.889
team at Stories and Strategies. If you don't
00:58:42.889 --> 00:58:45.130
know Doug and Emily, I suggest you reach out
00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:48.349
and learn what they do. I'm using RSS .com for
00:58:48.349 --> 00:58:50.730
podcast hosting, as podcast hosting is more than
00:58:50.730 --> 00:58:54.090
just storage. RSS .com provides so many features
00:58:54.090 --> 00:58:56.510
to ensure a great podcast experience. They're
00:58:56.510 --> 00:58:58.869
easy to use. They give you maximum distribution.
00:58:59.110 --> 00:59:01.230
There's a community to learn from. They have
00:59:01.230 --> 00:59:04.250
monetization solutions and so much more. And
00:59:04.250 --> 00:59:06.090
they have a plan that works great for podcast
00:59:06.090 --> 00:59:09.590
networks, not just individuals like me. Systems
00:59:09.590 --> 00:59:11.809
and processes are key for consistency needed
00:59:11.809 --> 00:59:14.289
in podcasting, which is why I turned it to Nord
00:59:14.289 --> 00:59:16.909
Flow, a dedicated podcast project management
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built by podcasters for podcasters. Most likely
00:59:21.340 --> 00:59:22.940
if you're listening this, we all know the power
00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:25.320
of repurposing the content. That's why I turned
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:29.219
to Cast Magic. Using their AI, I'm able to turn
00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:33.340
in my scripts for intros, outros, content that
00:59:33.340 --> 00:59:36.000
I'm able to give to my guests, and so much more.
00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:38.380
You can check out the links in the show notes
00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:41.039
for everything we've discussed here today. To
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:42.940
those of you who've rated and reviewed, reached
00:59:42.940 --> 00:59:45.679
out with comments, thank you. If you haven't,
00:59:45.820 --> 00:59:48.780
go ahead and leave a review. And also, I'm using
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:51.119
a new feature that lets you send me a voice note.
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:53.840
The link is in my show notes. Want to give me
00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:55.760
feedback, share your thoughts, you can easily
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.090
record it now. As I say, life is about time and
00:59:59.090 --> 01:00:01.449
relationships. You have no clue where one conversation
01:00:01.449 --> 01:00:03.769
is going to take you. And this is why I'm able
01:00:03.769 --> 01:00:05.949
to have this podcast and bring you these great
01:00:05.949 --> 01:00:08.030
conversations. That's why I love networking,
01:00:08.050 --> 01:00:10.190
because I have no clue where those conversations
01:00:10.190 --> 01:00:12.469
will lead. And I guarantee you, you have no clue
01:00:12.469 --> 01:00:14.210
where these conversations you're listening to
01:00:14.210 --> 01:00:16.489
today will take you, but I guarantee your future
01:00:16.489 --> 01:00:19.989
self. Thank you for tuning in. I live on LinkedIn.
01:00:20.289 --> 01:00:23.710
Reach out. Let's talk. Link in the bio. To those
01:00:23.710 --> 01:00:25.889
of you who've already done so, I appreciate you.
01:00:25.949 --> 01:00:28.550
That means alone that the podcast is doing its
01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:31.690
job. I have a newsletter, also linked in the
01:00:31.690 --> 01:00:33.889
show notes, that promotes podcasts to listen
01:00:33.889 --> 01:00:36.190
to because discovery is difficult as we've talked
01:00:36.190 --> 01:00:38.710
about on the show. It's on LinkedIn. Subscribe
01:00:38.710 --> 01:00:41.349
and find podcasts reviewed weekly along with
01:00:41.349 --> 01:00:44.829
my guest recommendations. Always. New episodes
01:00:44.829 --> 01:00:46.730
come out every Thursday wherever you can see
01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:49.869
in your podcast. Until next time, I appreciate
01:00:49.869 --> 01:00:50.210
you.