Hello, and welcome back to the Pause, Purpose, Play podcast with me, your host, Michaela Thomas. You might have heard me talk about being twice exceptional in the past, and I am twice exceptional myself, and so is my son. And today we're gonna talk about what that term means. it doesn't mean that you're exceptional in a, an arrogant way or that you're superior in any way, nor does it mean that you are exceptionally bendy and could be a, you know, a trapeze artist.
It means something to do with your mind. So being twice exceptional in more ways than one, you're being an outlier, effectively. So your, neurodivergence in terms of, say, ADHD or autism or dyslexia, is combined with also having a mind that is very bright or, has exceptional learning capabilities or high learning potential.
There are many different words for this. and twice exceptional or 2e is more commonly used in the US. So today I've brought on a guest that's gonna talk to you more about that. And Emma Hetherington, who is the founder of Kind of Extraordinary, a UK-based neurodiversity affirming practice that supports families of neurodivergent and twice exceptional children.
She's gonna come and talk to us, helping us to understand the challenges and the strengths of being twice exceptional, that it's not all bliss. It's not just blessing, it can also be really challenging. She is a, a late diagnosed ADHD herself, and mom to two twice exceptional children, and that gives her a deep firsthand understanding of the daily joys, spiky profiles, and systemic challenges that these families face.
She is a certified Autoplay, therapy provider, and holds qualifications in SEN and mental health. She has spent years working in the charity sector, specifically supporting families of gifted and 2e children before launching her own practice. She aims to help parents moving away from clinical jargon and offer practical, respectful, and strengths-based support.
So in this episode, we are basically demystifying what twice exceptionality means and how common it is that high achievers, children with high learning ability also can mask those challenges that the neurodivergence is , giving as well, and then they slip through the cracks. They use their intelligence to mask their struggles at school, and then they can have very spiky profiles.
We might also commonly see that they have higher levels of perfectionism, needing things to be just right, and putting so much pressure on themselves that they can be more likely to fall into burnout or anxiety because the pressure is just too much. So welcome to my guest, Emma.
[00:02:51] Michaela: So welcome to the podcast, Emma. It's a real joy to have you here, and I think we're gonna have a kind of extraordinary conversation today.
[00:03:00] Emma: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:03:04] Michaela: And obviously, I know what I was trying to do there with the pun- Yeah ... but tell us about Kind of Extraordinary.
Where did that come from?
[00:03:12] Emma: Kind of Extraordinary came from the fact that, you know, I have 2e children. I have a lot of friends that have neurodivergent children, 2e children, and I was like, "Yeah, like, it's great, but also it's really tricky sometimes, isn't it?" And you're trying to explain that, and you're saying, like, "It's amazing, but it's kind of difficult as well."
And it's that, like, yes, they're different, but they're also kind of extraordinary. So it was more of that- Mm-hmm ... I didn't wanna be, like, toxic positivity like, "Oh, it's your superpower." Mm. I just wanted it to be like, "Yeah, there's difficulties, but there's also some really great things," and be realistic about that.
[00:03:51] Michaela: Mm. So they're kind of extraordinary- Kind of extraordinary ... but also kind of- Yeah ... kind of a little bit extra. Kind of a- Just a bit. Just a bit. And, for anyone who's new to that concept, I've touched upon it on the podcast before because I also have a, at least one, 2e child that's been- Mm-hmm
diagnosed. but for anyone who doesn't know what 2e means, can you explain a bit about what that is?
[00:04:12] Emma: Yeah. So twice exceptional, it's a term that is more global. In the UK some people will call it dual or multiple exceptional. but I use 2e just because it's more recognizable. The books, most of them say 2e.
and it's easier, you know? Yeah.but it's essentially when a child or person is cognitively more able or gifted, and ADHD, autistic, all of the above, dyslexic, dyscalculia, all of those things. It's the gifted and is how I would- Mm ... describe it to someone who didn't know what it was.
[00:04:53] Michaela: And exceptional meaning not better than, but exceptional in terms of being the, the outlier in level of-
[00:04:59] Emma: Yeah
[00:05:00] Michaela: intelligence is how I've understood that-
[00:05:01] Emma: Yeah, and it's like- ... as well ... that fundamental difference in their processing. You know, like, it's an exceptionality, you know- Mm ... rather than exceptional, which I think is sometimes- Mm ... why people have an issue with the gifted label because they- Mm ... have that, misunderstanding that you're saying, "Oh, well, they're better," you know?
Mm-hmm. And a lot of that comes from the education system. When we had a gifted and talented policy in the s- in the UK that was removed in 2010, but when we had that it was about the high achievers. Mm-hmm. So there's that misconception that giftedness means that they're high achievers and they're just amazing, rather than it being like, no, their brains are just absorbing everything at a really fast pace and, you know, it's about their nervous system as much as it is their cognitive abilities.
So it's- Mm ... that gifted and is- Mm ... really tricky sometimes.
[00:05:58] Michaela: And very much a blessing and a curse, right? Mm-hmm. In terms of how it can help as well as hinder. Can you talk a bit about that, why, why it is that those of exceptional cognitive ability- Mm-hmm ... might be struggling?
[00:06:11] Emma: Yeah. So the thing is, obviously in a typical education system, you have a child who might be meeting expectations, or they might be above expectations, but the expectations are based on a chronological age expectancy.
So a 2E child, a gifted child, they might be reading before they even start reception, and the parents might not know how they started reading. You know? They- Yeah. I remember being in a restaurant and saying to, like, my eldest, who was, like, 18 months, "Oh, are you gonna have some, like, chicken and some vegetables?"
And he was like, "Fish and chips." And pointing at the menu. And I was like, "No, no, there's no f-..." And he was like, "Fish, chips." And I was like, "Okay, right." Can't get away with that anymore, you know? Mm-hmm.so it was really difficult. So you have the high abilities that aren't always recognized sometimes because there's not the opportunity for them to be shown.
Because in reception they're expected to do phonics. So that- Yes ... child's sitting there going a, b, c, and doing all of that. But actually they've been able to read for years, but the teachers aren't asking them those questions because it's not expected. Mm. But then you also have a child that, you know, for instance, if they're 2E ADHD- Mm
those barriers, that kind of difficulty with kind of paying attention or sitting still will be focused on more. And without- Mm ... that support, then they don't have the opportunity to engage the higher ability. So it kind of happens that the high abilities can mask the barriers because-
[00:07:56] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:07:56] Emma: they're understanding.
They'll say, "Oh," like, you know, internally they're going, "Nope, sit still. We're at school now, I have to sit still. I understand that." They might even, you know, my youngest, when she was at nursery, was reading and the teacher said to me, "Oh, well, you know, she's been enjoying the reading corner." I said, "Oh, what has she been reading?"
"No, no, she's not reading. She's just looking at the books." I said, "She can read." And when I asked her- Mm ... she said, "Well, no one else can read, so I don't read at school. I don't read at nursery." Mm. So you have that difference where they're either, subconsciously masking their abilities- Yeah ... they're very consciously masking their abilities to fit in because they have that deeper understanding, or the barriers are just not supported in any way, shape, or form because their intellectual abilities are fine.
They're, you know- Mm ... meeting their levels. So then they're not really pushed to see what they're capable of, and the barriers are focused on. It's like they're hyperactive, they're not sitting still, they're talking in class, rather than this child needs more stimulation.
[00:09:06] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if that's sort of almost like the double whammy of boredom that comes in- Yeah
when they are already grasping a, an intellectual concept, as you've introduced a learning concept- Mm-hmm ... a topic that they already f- figured that out, and they have challenges with patience and waiting for if they're ADHD as well. Yeah. How, how can we see that, you know, in, in the school system? What happens to those kids if they're not stimulated enough, if they're, if they're gifted as well as ADHD?
[00:09:36] Emma: They often become a behavior problem, you know? And I say that in- Mm ... inverted commas because I don't believe that you could just focus on the behavior without understanding the root cause. But obviously- Mm ... schools currently are under-resourced. They're understaffed in a lot of instances. Teaching staff are overwhelmed because of the sheer class sizes.
Mm. So they're not able to give that one-to-one time to each child. Mm. So then that child, the focus becomes what the teacher is able to manage in that moment, which is you need to sit down. You need to sit down. Mm. And our curriculum in the UK is very mastery approached, which is torture for ADHD. But also when you add the fact that there's giftedness, they've learnt it.
[00:10:22] Michaela: Mm.
[00:10:23] Emma: They- Mm. They, they heard it once. They're like, "Yep, got it. Locked in." They might not understand- Yeah ... everything about it, but they've understood that that word says cat. They understand that even- Mm ... that says cattle or catastrophe. Mm. It, they understand all of that. But . Then they're, in their minds, they're saying, "Why do I need to show it again?" Of, of show- Yeah
and then it becomes defiance 'cause they're like, they're not doing the work. And you're like, because in their minds they've already done it.
[00:10:55] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:55] Emma: You know, why do they need- Yeah ... to keep showing you that they can do it? It's already done. Mm. So then it becomes this pushback. But also, an big issue you have in a lot of 2E kids is perfectionism, and I know obviously that's something that's totally your wheelhouse.
But- Mm ... you know, if you have a child who cannot remember when they learned to read, they couldn't remember when they knew their times tables, they don't remember those small increments. They just go, "Well, you read it." 'Cause they were so young. Mm. Yeah. So they don't necessarily understand that learning is this gradual process.
So then when they're confronted with something they don't understand, almost instantly it like- Mm ... threatens their nervous system, and they just either shut down or, you know, if it's coloring in when they're really little, that bit of paper will get scrunched up, thrown away, they're never coloring in again.
Yeah. Because no, it's not gonna look like that. You might have a child that starts writing quite early, then they gain the understanding of what it should look like- Mm ... and then they go, "No, it's not gonna be perfect," or, "Now we're doing joined up writing. I don't know how to do that-" Mm ... "so I'm not gonna do it."
And then that looks like that child isn't doing the work at all, and sometimes that's mistaken- Yeah ... as they're not capable of doing the work. Mm. Whereas you've got this child at home possibly who's like talking about black holes and spaghettification and whatever, and in school they're like doing the bare minimum of work, and it's taking a lot of effort for the teachers to even get them- Mm
to do that bare minimum.
[00:12:38] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:12:38] Emma: And you have this complete mismatch because they're so aware of the expectations.
[00:12:44] Michaela: Mm.
[00:12:45] Emma: So it's really difficult. It's not an easy thing for teachers or for parents, but I think parents live with the reality of- Mm ... their 2E child, whereas schools, some schools don't even know 2E exists- No, they don't
and that's really difficult.
[00:13:04] Michaela: Yeah. I had to educate, educate the s- the lower school that my son has been going through. Mm-hmm. And once they've understood- they've been much more curious about how can we facilitate learning and not just the academic side of things, but mental health.
[00:13:17] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:18] Michaela: How can we, like how can we ensure that this child is emotionally well?
And I wonder, that's something I wanna dig more into of when you have such asynchronous development- Yeah ... like maybe being really strong and extraordinary in some areas- Mm-hmm ... and really behind in others, what we, what do we tend to see in the kind of the profiles of learning or skills in 2E kids?
[00:13:38] Emma: I think, like sometimes there's this expectation that their strengths will be across the board and their barriers will be across the board.
But the really difficult thing with 2E children is it's even more interest-led than just simply like an ADHD child. You know- Mm ... it's, you, there's no amount of support. If that kid's not interested in it, they're not doing it, you know? Yeah. And really trying to get that through that that's not defiance, but it's just not giving them any reward, and it's not giving them- Yeah
that value. It's not interesting to them. And, you know, it's that internal battle. Some children will know, "I need to do this. I'm gonna get in trouble." Mm. But they still can't push themselves to do it because they don't know- Mm ... how to start that. So what you often have is you might have kids that there might be a misdiagnosis.
They might think that that child's dyslexic, or you might have a child, because they refuse to read, I mean. But- Mm ... if you have a ch- you might have a dyslexic 2E child, and then they're trying to support the dyslexia, but all the support is in place for someone who has average or below average cognitive abilities.
Mm. So then that child will disengage with the supports because it's not suitable for their ability level. So it's really difficult to mismatch, to match the support with- Mm ... that asynchronous profile. And- Yeah ... y- you know, parents are having to, as you said you did, you have to educate, and that's really hard to be that parent that's like, "Hi,Yeah
I just need to tell you something." No, I'm not a teacher. No, I'm not like- Yeah ... a psychologist, or I don't have qualification in childhood development. I'm just the parent, and this is what- Yeah ... my kid can do. And they, it's that, "Yeah, yeah, everyone's child's bright," and then mm, you know?
[00:15:36] Michaela: No, no. And it's- And, and you know what?
I am that clinical psychologist. Yeah. And I can, at this-who also does ADHD and- Mm-hmm ... you know, neuro div- divergence support, you know, assessment, diagnosis, coaching, therapy, and I am 2E myself.
[00:15:55] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:55] Michaela: And yet it was really difficult, and if I- Yeah ... struggled with that, it's, it's because one thing I really noticed, and I wanted to see what, what your experience has been about this as well- Mm-hmm
that when you go in to try to educate, it is really hard to do so without it looking like you're, coming across as superior. Yeah.
[00:16:13] Emma: Right? You know, arrogant. Or that you're trying to make excuses.
[00:16:15] Michaela: Yes. Yes. So let's stay for this. There's two different things. Mm-hmm. One is, like, almost, like, over-believing in your child.
Mm-hmm. And you said, "Well, everyone can be bright." Actually, when you know that there's another level of brightness in your child- Yeah ... that's one thing. And the other one is letting them get away with stuff. Mm-hmm. So if you stay with that first one- Okay ... have, have you had experiences of that in the work that you do?
[00:16:35] Emma: yes. Yeah. And it's sometimes I speak to parents, and then they're t- saying that, "This is what the school was saying, and this is what..." And you go, "Well, yeah, but that's because of the way their brain's wired. This is happening here." And th- and they, they just... Sometimes I've had parents just, like, break down.
They say like, "You're the first person that's actually listened to me- Mm-hmm ... and validated that- Yeah ... because I feel like I'm going crazy." An analogy I use- Mm ... quite often with families is it's like you go in and say that you live with a unicorn, and they look at you and- Yes ... go, "No, that's a donkey." And you're like, "No- Mm
it's a unicorn. Can you not see?" And they're like, "What?" You know? And I think parents worry about what they can ask for, but they also worry about looking like that parent, you know? Mm-hmm. "I don't wanna be that parent that's at the school again." But I think it's about parents of 2E children understanding that if their child wasn't being given water at school- Mm
and their child was coming out thirsty, you would be saying, "Can, can you make sure they've got some water? They're saying they're thirsty- Mm ... every single day." And school would go, "Oh, yeah. Okay. We'll make sure. Mm. We'll remind them," and things like that. But it seems to be very different when it comes to asking for intellectual stimuli- stimulation- Mm.
Mm-hmm ... because the, then it's that thing of, "Well, I'm the teacher. Why are you telling me how to do my job?" Depending on how it's approached. Mm-hmm. But it's also that thing of- parents not feeling like they're allowed to ask those questions sometimes. I think- Yeah ... you know, depending on the school, some schools are quite, you know, you speak to the school receptionist.
You might not see the class teacher. You definitely won't see the head teacher in some schools. Mm. Like, the school we're at- Mm ... is amazing and it, but it was our fourth primary school, you know? Mm-hmm. And but you can pull any teacher aside and say, "Oh, just quickly, just to let you know, this is what's been going on," or, you know- Yeah
they'll say, "Oh, this was happening this afternoon. We've spoken about this," and da, da, da. But you need that collaboration. If you don't have that collaboration- You do ... you just feel like y- you then start to disengage 'cause you think- Mm ... "Ugh, don't wanna have that conversation again. They're just gonna-
[00:18:54] Michaela: Mm
[00:18:54] Emma: say they'll do these things. It's, nothing's gonna happen. I'm gonna look crazy." And, you know, so it's you feeling like, "Right. Come on, suit of armor on. Let's get ready." Mm-hmm. But actually, when you have the right education setting, it's more a, "I'm gonna go and have a chat. We're gonna have a nice conversation.
We're gonna work out a way forward. And if that doesn't work out, we're gonna try something else," you know? Yeah, yeah. But you need to have that mutual understanding and respect first.Mm ... but I think it is parents believing that they can go- Mm ... "Hi, I know you hear this a lot probably, but- Mm ... you know, this is what we're seeing.
Mm. Have you seen that at school?" Like, you know, things like- Yeah ... we're noticing they're much more regulated when they're reading their space encyclopedia or when they've had a lot of, like enriching activities. Is that something you notice at school? Yeah. Because then you're not saying, "This is what my child needs."
You're saying, "We've noticed. How does your experience match up to that?"
[00:20:00] Michaela: Mm.
[00:20:01] Emma: And it's giving their school the opportunity- So it's a lot less
[00:20:04] Michaela: antagonizing.
[00:20:04] Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Rather than going in with a to-do list, you know- Mm ... it's like the gentle parenting of, "I appreciate, you know, you're doing this," and they've sp- they love this, this, and this, "but-
[00:20:15] Michaela: Mm
[00:20:15] Emma: you know, what could be the way forward?"
[00:20:19] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:20:19] Emma: yeah '
[00:20:20] Michaela: Cause that's one of the things you do. obviously not directly speaking with schools- Mm-hmm ... but helping people to prepare for that advocacy.
[00:20:26] Emma: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Michaela: almost like having a, a list of what, what, I know you have a, a cheat sheet on your website that- Yeah
you can download to, to help you structure. Because if you are a parent of a 2E kid, you know, might als- might be that you are neurodivergent as well and you might- Mm-hmm ... find it really difficult to concentrate and to be concise enough to do this in the, what, seven minutes you might get- Yeah ... in a parent-teacher evening.
So it's really hard. Yeah. I found that we, it's been really diff- very difficult with certain teachers where they've seen- Mm ... us talking about needing more stimulation as either us being arrogant or, us being, pushy parents that want- Mm-hmm ... him to achieve more than he's capable of. Yeah. And I frankly could not give a toss about which times table he can do-
[00:21:08] Emma: Yeah
[00:21:08] Michaela: 'cause he can do them all. And- Yeah ...
[00:21:10] Emma: Yeah, you're like, "Do you know what? I'd really love- And that's not, and I'm no pressure dude ... to not have times tables, at me before 7:00 AM. That would be great. Why would I do this- Yeah ... to myself?" You know, I would love to stick- Exactly ... on Bluey for four hours and that would be great, but no.
Like, not four hours, that's excessive. But, you know, I think- Yes ... there's that misunderstanding as well that if a child is reading early, it's because a parent has been there with flashcards.
[00:21:32] Michaela: Yes.
[00:21:32] Emma: You know? And they've been drilling it into them. Workbooks. Yeah. And you just think- Yeah ... no, like my kids would do it during the summer holidays or half term or whatever.
They get about two days in and then they're like, "C- can, have we got anything we can do?" Like, "Can I go on- Mm ... Scratch coding? Can I do some maths? Can I..." Mm. You know, and you're just like-
[00:21:51] Michaela: Mm ... "It's
[00:21:52] Emma: two days in. Like, have a bit of time off." Mm. You know? Yeah. But it's that... And that's what I mean, it's understanding that it's a need.
Intellectual- Mm ... stimulation for them is a need, as much as any sensory adapt- Yes ... adaptations. And when you start- Yeah ... viewing it like that, it's a bit more... I think schools can be a bit more open to it, but also I think parents are like, "Okay, right. No, they're not trying to just like-" annoy me. They're not trying to kind of test me.
They're not doing any of that. They're just like, "Here's this thing, and did you know, and did you know, and this dinosaur was this size" Yeah "... and they're the..." You know, and it's just, and you're just standing - Yeah ... there like, "Uh-huh?"
[00:22:33] Michaela: So the, so the info dumping can be quite intense, can't it? Yeah. When- It
[00:22:37] Emma: can
[00:22:37] Michaela: but it's also a way I've seen my child relate and connect- Mm-hmm ... to others by doing that. And again, you know, what is the sort of social struggles and what is the gift in this? But if you then don't know how to start conversation, a "Did you know?" Mm-hmm ... he always pulls out a did you know and a random fact comes out.
Yeah. Because he retains facts like there is no tomorrow, and I guess my background of having been a clinical psychologist and also briefly did the, intelligence testing for Mensa Sweden- Oh, okay ... I knew what I was looking at.
[00:23:05] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:05] Michaela: But it's really difficult still to come in and be like, "I think my child is gifted" And it was only when we had the cognitive assessment to say, he's got an IQ of 146- Yeah
or whatever it was, oh, okay, so he does need a little bit more stimulation. And then the school has changed and met- Mm-hmm ... him very differently and having him, giving him extra extensions and stuff. Mm-hmm. Coming back to the perfectionism bit, though- Yes ... I think that's really fascinating, that when he was given, on the odd occasion he was given an extension he couldn't do-
[00:23:34] Emma: Mm-hmm
[00:23:34] Michaela: magically, that extension task would just end up in the bin, the teacher- Yeah ... would say. He would just like, "Oh, I wonder what happened. Did you not finish that?" "No. No" No ... and it just would've disappeared because the, the fear of failure-
[00:23:45] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:23:46] Michaela: is so strong. 'Cause, yeah. Can you talk a bit more about what happens for, for a child who has been told that they're so smart and then they fail?
[00:23:53] Emma: Yeah. Well, and I think that actually is a really important distinction to make.- telling your child, okay, it's not about hiding it from them, but saying, "You're so smart" becomes like a stick- Mm-hmm ... that they beat themselves with. You know? It becomes that bar, and then you get the shoulds. But I'm so smart, so I should be able to do this, whereas actually, if you shift the way you're talking and you're like, "You look like you're enjoying that" or- Mm
"You were doing that for five minutes yesterday, and today you were able to do it for 10 minutes, what's changed?" Like, building that resilience, but shifting the focus to being about the process and their progress rather than outcome, you know? Mm. Like, of course, sometimes you'll say, "Oh, you got 10 out of 10, well done" But actually- Mm
do, then when they get nine out of 10, their minds might go, "Well, then that's not good enough because mom said that-" Mm-hmm "... well done when I got 10 out of 10." 'Cause they don't trust the praise because inside they think, "That, that took no effort." You know? So- Mm ... they don't necessarily associate effort with outcome, so then when- Mm
they come across something That they're unfamiliar with, like you say, the extension tasks. It's like, 'cause they don't have to put in any effort- Mm-hmm ... to be the top of the class a lot of the time. You know, a 2E child- Mm ... or a gifted child, they might get through to GCSEs without ever trying really.
[00:25:23] Michaela: Yes, that's what I did.
[00:25:24] Emma: S- same here, right? My GCSE revision- Yeah ... I watched Charmed, you know? Yeah. I did not revise. Yeah. And then you find, like, the wheels come off at A level when it's a lot more- Mm-hmm ... about y- you managing your own schedule, your own workload. Y- there's much more... It's less of a routine. It's less this is what you need to know to pass the exam-
[00:25:46] Michaela: Mm.
Mm ...
[00:25:47] Emma: which is very easy to remember because, as you say, you just remember the facts. You can skim read. You're like, "Got it. It's fine. Got the gist."
[00:25:56] Michaela: Yeah. "
[00:25:56] Emma: That's enough." And you can kind of blag the rest of it.
[00:26:00] Michaela: Mm.
[00:26:01] Emma: but then when A levels or some, in some cases university comes and you've got the, for ADHD 2E, you have the executive function, like, just barreling on top of you, then- Mm-hmm
that's where some people really, they struggle, and then it's like, "Well, I'm not, I'm not clever. I'm not smart."
[00:26:20] Michaela: Yeah. "
[00:26:21] Emma: I should be able to do this," and that's when you see a lot of impact on the mental health and the low self-esteem. And in some- really, you know, there's a lot of self-harm and things- Mm ... like that, and suicidal ideation, which-
[00:26:35] Michaela: Yeah
[00:26:35] Emma: is purely 'cause they don't have the language and the understanding, but they also- Mm ... haven't had the support because- Mm ... there's not that built into the curriculum because it's so British. Like, don't be good at anything. Everyone's the same. Mm. You know? Yes. No one's better than anyone, and you're like, but it's not about being- We all get a
[00:26:51] Michaela: medal.
[00:26:52] Emma: Yeah. It's not about it being better. It's about it- Mm-hmm ... being different. You know, that processing speed in some instances, you know- Mm ... the recall, that, like, ability to memorize things, it's instinctual for a lot of these kids. Mm. They don't know- Yeah ... how they learn it because, you know, it's like show your working out, and they're like, "That's the answer."
[00:27:15] Michaela: Yeah
[00:27:16] Emma: And they sacrifice
[00:27:17] Michaela: the point- Yeah, I'm glad you, I'm glad you're bringing that up. I'm glad you're bringing that up because it's the showing your workings out- Yeah ... is something that can be really difficult for- Mm ... a lot of the, the parents I've supported. They're talking about how the kids get into trouble for that because they don't want to do that.
That's boring. Mm-hmm. And you just know the answer. And again- Mm-hmm ... like I said, you're losing the ... You're getting marked down because you're not showing your workings through. Yeah. What can we say to those children, you know? Is there any way to help them manage that?
[00:27:43] Emma: Yeah. So one thing that I recommend, or one thing that I've done with my own children is doing the, "I don't understand it.
Could you teach me?" Or, "Could you teach your toy?" Mm. And things like that, because, like, they want to help, you know? Like, they want to succeed. It's that Ross Green thing of every child wants to succeed, you know? Mm-hmm. It's not that thing of they're just like, "No, I can't be bothered." But getting them to slow down, to be able to- Mm-hmm
teach you rather than prove something, you know? Mm-hmm. You're not asking them to prove that they know it. You're saying- Mm ... "I don't understand it. Could you teach me? I would really like to understand this." Like- Yeah ... "Could you teach your toy?" And things like that. And that helps them slow down, and that helps them identify the steps that their brain just got to so quickly- Mm, yeah
without them understanding. And there was probably music on in the background, and they were probably eating a snack at the same time and, you know, listening- Mm ... to a conversation they shouldn't have been listening to, that you thought, "Oh, I'll have that conversation whilst they're doing their homework and having a snack," you know?
[00:28:47] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:47] Emma: You can't get away with anything.
[00:28:49] Michaela: Little, little sponges. Yeah. Yeah Little sponges, who are very selective hearing when it's about doing something that I don't wanna do.
[00:28:56] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:56] Michaela: so it's really fascinating, that, that concept of not having the awareness of how you learn because- Mm-hmm ... you've just absorbed it.
And I guess that comes into sort of A levels and university, when you really have to use study technique- Oh ... and you really have to use critical thinking Yeah, like, oh,
[00:29:11] Emma: revise for your exams. And people are like, all right. What is that?" Oh. "Do I just reread the stuff- Yeah ... that I've been given?" You know, so they don't- Yeah
they need to learn to learn, and they need that- Yeah ... resilience. They need to know the, "I don't know it yet." You know? And that's really hard when you then also have like for instance the ADHD kind of impulsivity, "Ah, that's boring, I don't wanna do it anymore. Five minutes tops" - Mm-hmm ... sort of thing. And you know, you're having to find all these different ways to hook them into learning.
And it might work- Hmm ... one day and not the next day. Hmm. You might have a child- Mm-hmm ... that's like, "But I hate the feel of the paper on my hand." Mm. "And my hand hurts when I'm holding a pen, so I can't write for a long time." Mm. And things like that. Yeah. But they might not even know how to verbalize that.
[00:30:04] Michaela: Hmm.
[00:30:04] Emma: They might just be like, "I don't like writing." But actually- Yes, I don't want to ... if you said, yeah, if you said, "Tell me a story," they would be able to tell you- Hmm ... the most amazing story. But then if you said, "Write it down," they wouldn't.
[00:30:17] Michaela: Hmm. No. And- I think it's again that formatting, format of how we process information- Yeah
and how we can relay information.
[00:30:24] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:24] Michaela: so you, you talked about sort of that sense of how that can look like defiance. Mm-hmm. Like, "I don't want to." So it's not, you know, it's not don't want to, it's, it's can't in a lot of cases. Yeah.
you referenced Ross Green as well.
Mm-hmm. And for those who don't know his work, he does a lot of work around the explosive child.
[00:30:40] Emma: Yeah.
[00:30:41] Michaela: And in your experience, do we see that more in 2E children, that they have in- more intensity emotionally?
[00:30:47] Emma: Yeah. The intense emotions, because if you think they understand things generally speaking on a much deeper level than their age- Hmm
allows them the context, you know? Hmm. So they might understand some things, like going back to like the black holes and - spaghettification. I worked with a family once where their, I think she was eight, and she had developed this fear of a spare room that- Hmm ... had lots of stuff just in it. Like you know you have- Hmm
the dumping room. They had a lot of stuff in there. Yes. And they were like, "Oh, well just chuck it in there." And she had developed this fear that basically that room was gonna implode, because it was gonna- Hmm ... like kind of be too full and it was gonna implode. And-
[00:31:36] Michaela: Hmm ...
[00:31:37] Emma: but she was eight, so you couldn't- Hmm
she couldn't rationalize what she knew about like deep space and physics- Hmm ... with it's okay, that room isn't gonna implode. Like- Hmm ... we're all safe. It's just- Hmm ... that room just needs to be tidied up. So it's- Hmm ... that kind of- academic understanding, and then the difference of the fact that no matter what academic emotional intelligence levels they have, if they're five, they're five.
Mm-hmm. You know, their life experience- Yeah ... only allows them to contextualize things. You know, they've not fallen in love and had their heart broken. They've not really, in a lot of cases, known loss and things like that. Mm. But they un- they'll be able to read Shakespeare.
[00:32:24] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:26] Emma: You know,
[00:32:26] Michaela: so that's- Different emotional maturity, right?
Exactly. And that's what this, what you said about the, the uneven profile of development- Mm-hmm ... that they can do certain things, but then you realize that actually they're really little, and we need to allow- Yeah ... them to be little. especially if any of them have, you know, like we're talking about ADHD or autism alongside- Yeah
that they might have a 30% developmental delay-
[00:32:44] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:32:45] Michaela: in some areas, and speak like they're five years older than their chronological age. Yeah. And that's, that's really confusing, right, of, of the parental- It is ... expectations.
[00:32:53] Emma: Well, and I think that's the thing, it is these expectations. And one thing I have to remind families sometimes is, yes, okay, I know that you, you've just been talking about like- A-level maths with your seven-year-old- Mm-hmm
and, like- Mm-hmm ... all of this, but then they've kicked off that you peeled their banana and they didn't want you to peel- Mm-hmm ... the banana. But you have- Yeah, yeah ... to understand that just because they're eloquent or articulate, in some cases, again, it's not all 2E children, but- Mm ... just because they're having those conversations with you doesn't change the fact that they're seven and have an executive- Mm
f- function barrier which puts them 30%. So, you know, like, it's almost like you have to accept the strengths, scaffold the barriers, and not say, you know, it's that thing of, "Of course you can listen to that science podcast whilst- Mm ... I am tying your shoes, even though all your- Mm-hmm ... classmates can tie their shoes."
Yeah. You do that because actually is it important right now to focus- Mm ... on that battle of you need- Mm ... to tie your shoes 'cause everyone else can tie their shoes, or could you just get some Velcro?
[00:34:01] Michaela: Yeah, yeah. You know, l- choosing your battles of, of where you can support that development- Mm-hmm ... because not everyone can do the thing that they're doing with the times tables or, Yeah
deep space knowledge. so everyone learns different things, different speed. I know my son has struggled with tying shoes, learning to ride a bike. Those kind of more procedural- Mm-hmm ... p- performance things have been difficult. Gross motors, fine motor skills w- were hard, but he's, you know- Mm-hmm ... the cog wheels are always turning.
And I guess that you've, you've, you mentioned that earlier of how much of a challenge it can be for parents.
[00:34:32] Emma: Yeah.
[00:34:32] Michaela: Partly because of the, I guess, the thirst, you know, or the thirst- Mm ... for knowledge, inquisitive nature means that they don't stop talking. Like, why? Yeah. But why? But why? And then this and then that.
Yeah. So again, a lot of the parents I see are then f- feeling bad about that, like, oh, I'm not- Mm-hmm ... patient enough, and self-criticism around how they, when they get annoyed. So I guess it's that balancing act of how we support and-
[00:34:57] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:34:58] Michaela: help them flourish- Mm-hmm ... but also set some boundaries when, like, we've had enough of the info dumping.
What, what are your- Yeah ... thoughts around that really difficult challenge?
[00:35:06] Emma: So we talk a lot about wants and needs in our family, you know? Mm. So when it's like, "Mummy, mummy, mummy," and I, I'll be like, "Yep." You know, in the middle of cooking d- tea. And the, "Ah, blah, blah, blah" And I'm like, "Right, is this a want or a need?
Is this something I n- need to know right now, or is it something you want to tell me?" And they'll go, Mm ... "Oh, well, it's, you know..." And I'm s- ... So I need to cook food because we need to eat. I'm gonna set a timer, and we have visual timers everywhere in this house. Mm-hmm. But I'm gonna set a timer. The part of cooking that I'm doing is gonna take five minutes.
When that timer goes off, I'm gonna listen to what you want to tell me. But right now, I need to do this, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's that kind of building in that understanding that I want to hear what you have to say. Mm-hmm. Not, I haven't got time. Mm-hmm. Just I want to hear, but this is important, so we need- Mm-hmm
to kind of work that out. Because often- Mm-hmm ... the 2E kids will be s- in school, it's you've answered, you've put your hands up a lot, s- give someone else- Mm ... a turn to talk. Mm-hmm,
[00:36:16] Michaela: mm.
[00:36:16] Emma: And sometimes that turns into that kid not putting their hand up any because they think, "The teacher's not interested in what I have to say."
[00:36:23] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:36:23] Emma: You know? And they disengage. So it is that validation of I wanna hear what you have to say, even though you've probably- Mm ... been told it 50,000 times before. But, you know- Yeah ... I wanna hear that. That's important. You want to share that with me, but I need to do this. Could you please give me the time to do that?
[00:36:42] Michaela: Mm.
[00:36:43] Emma: And then we can, you know, and it helps you as well because, as you said, if you've got a 2E child, you're most likely 2E or neurodivergent yourself. Helps you stay on task, you know? You're not going- Yeah ... 'cause you, you've got that visual timer as well, and you're like, "Right, no, I've s- promised them that I'll do this."
Mm. But I think it's parents understanding that it's actually okay to put that boundary in, and it's actually- Mm ... okay if you're having a cup of tea and you're like, "Do you know what? I need five minutes to myself. I'm feeling overwhelmed right now."
[00:37:14] Michaela: Mm. "
[00:37:15] Emma: I need to reset." I'm gonna set a timer wh- you can ask me whatever questions you want after that timer, but right now I just need quiet.
[00:37:26] Michaela: Mm.
[00:37:26] Emma: You know? Mm. And that modeling is also helpful.
[00:37:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:37:31] Emma: Because then it gives them the skills to say, "I'm struggling right now. I don't wanna have this conversation."
[00:37:40] Michaela: Mm.
[00:37:40] Emma: You know? Yeah. And I think that's one of the most important things we can do. You know, when they're really little, you're like, "Shall we go to the park?
Can you see the swings? Yes, the swings go forwards and backwards. You go down the slide." And you do all of that to help with their language development. But then when they get older, we almost forget that they're still watching us. Mm. They're still engaged with everything we're saying. So if when we make a mistake, they hear us go, "Oh, I'm so stupid, I can't believe I did that.
All I had to do- Mm ... was this simple thing, blah, blah, blah." They think that's how you talk to yourself- Mm ... when you make a mistake. And for a kind of population of children that struggle with perfectionism, it's really difficult. But you do have to kind of go, "Right, went to the shop to get spaghetti. Didn't get spaghetti.
That's frustrating." "I can't believe I got distracted. I saw this, I saw that. It's the one thing I didn't get." Now, the answer isn't you going back to the shop and buying the spaghetti. The answer is you- Mm ... going, "Okay. Well, we've got some rice in the cupboard. We've got some potatoes." Mm-hmm. "We've got that random bag of polenta we bought after watching a cookery show.
Like, we've got that stuff." Mm. "We're gonna change." So then they're seeing you model, like, the problem-solving. They're not seeing you- Yeah ... go, "I'm such an idiot, I've got to go back to the shop now." Mm. That's not good enough. You know, thinking of that scrunching up the paper, I'm gonna start again because I went over the lines.
Mm-hmm. It's that thing of- Mm ... okay, Mommy made a mistake. Oh, she was annoyed with herself, but she told herself everyone makes mistakes, and then she found an answer. You know? Yeah. It's, it's, it's so hard to catch yourself in that- Mm ... sometimes, but it really is helpful
[00:39:27] Michaela: And there's some really good programs on TV now, 'cause, about having a lot more awareness of the growth mindset.
Like you said, "I can't do this yet."
[00:39:34] Emma: Yeah. "
[00:39:35] Michaela: I don't know the answer yet. I'm still learning." So there are some things like, ... I find Gabby's Dollhouse is quite good for that. Mm-hmm. Obviously Bluey is everyone's favorite.
[00:39:43] Emma: Oh, yeah. That's
[00:39:43] Michaela: good. But I know my, my little girl, she when, when she's, made a mistake she just goes, "Whoopsie," because I, I really, really try to make myself say, "Whoopsie."
Mm-hmm. because I've had more capacity with my second child than I've had with my first. Yeah. He, he had more challenges when he was little, so I was more deprived of, like, sleep, et cetera. Mm-hmm. So with her I've really tried to be like, "Whoopsie." and when she then makes a mistake she says, "I made a mistake.
It's okay. It's okay." sometimes, "It's okay, it's okay," because she's frustrated. But she still says it out loud, like, "I made
[00:40:13] Emma: a mistake.
[00:40:14] Michaela: It's okay, it's okay." Because that's ... or we just go like, "Whoopsie." Or if I would do what you just gave example of, like the getting distracted or forgetfulness- Yeah ... I would just be like, "Ooh, squirrel."
Yeah. we got sidetracked by something. Squirrel. Yeah ... and it's, it's just a way to, for s- to have the acceptance that- Mm-hmm ... this is going to happen. We're going to do these things 'cause of executive- Yeah ... dysfunction, and how can we bring it back to what you gave example of there, flexibility. What else can we cook with?
Mm-hmm. And it's not the end of the world. That can loosen some of the perfectionism because it's not the end of the world if you didn't get the spaghetti.
[00:40:51] Emma: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Michaela: What is actually gonna, you know, combust into fire if you don't cook spaghetti? I mean, obviously that, if you have an autistic child-
[00:40:58] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:40:58] Michaela: there might be more- Yeah
spontaneous combustion because there's change to the- Mm-hmm ... promise or broken promise- Mm-hmm ... or change to what they're expecting. but I was gonna ask as well about the living with the intensity there.
[00:41:11] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:12] Michaela: Do you find that these children hold it together more in school, and they're released more afterwards?
Or do we see bigger restraint collapses?
[00:41:22] Emma: It depends on the child obviously. One 2E child will be completely different to another. But in general, because a lot of them are high masking, or at least they understand the expectations within the school environment-
[00:41:37] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:37] Emma: the, they'll be the model pupil. "Oh, they-" Mm-hmm
"they were perfect." And, you know, they might come out and like- headbutt you straight away.
[00:41:46] Michaela: Mm.
[00:41:46] Emma: You know? Or it might be that you're then in the car on the way home and, "Oh, how was your day?" "Don't talk to me." And you're like, "Okay." You know? Thank you. Because- Yeah ... yeah. It's that thing of you're their safe place, and you're like, "Goody.
Great. Really looking forward-" Yes ... "to this." particularly on a day that you think, "Oh, wow, that's a really full day." That's a lot of- Mm ... kind of internal working because I think sometimes some kids, you, they'll be s- oh, well, they go to naught to 60. And you're like, no, no, they actually went from 58 to 60, but- Mm
zero to 58 was internal. You know? Mm-hmm. They were... You know, it's those small things like are they fiddling with their hair- Mm-hmm ... because they know they have to sit still? Are they doodling in the margins because they know they have to sit still? Does it look like they're daydreaming, but if you ask them the question, they're like, "Oh, yeah, look," because they just find that kind of focus really uncomfortable You know, what is it?
And it, that's, but so yeah, the restraint collapse is a massive thing. But- Mm ... you know, it's often because as well you think they, they're not having their intellectual needs met either. Mm. It's that constant thing of, right, when I get home I'll be able to do this. When I get, I'll be able to do that, and, but that's boring, but it's fine.
I'm not allowed to shout out. I'm not allowed to tell the teacher that it's boring. I'm not allowed to go, "Ugh," when they ask me to do something- ... because then I'll get told off for being rude, you know? Mm. Don't talk too much even though you've finished your work in, like, a fraction of the time- Mm ... that was provided.
Yeah. Or even you weren't that interested, so you just wrote the bare minimum and you're like, "I've answered the question. I've done it."
[00:43:35] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:35] Emma: You know? Yeah. But the teacher wanted a whole paragraph, and they're like, "Why? I've given you... I've answered the question." Yeah. "Tell me where I haven't answered the question," sort of thing.
[00:43:42] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:43] Emma: Like, you know, it's work smarter, not harder very much. And, like, a two-year child is exceptional at finding the loophole.
[00:43:50] Michaela: Yes, yes. We, we actually call our son, Loople and then his name because he is- ... he is excellent at it, and he... I- this is a bit that is sort of kind of extraordinary that you're proud of- Yeah
that is also really funny at times, and equally frustrating. Mm-hmm. But he, he at once, drew out a flow chart, a algorithm flow chart of how I ruined his childhood. Oh, stop ... like arrows by arrows. And I, I saved this. I, I looked at it and I'm like, "I'm offended," and, like, so, so- Yeah ... amused in equal measure.
'Cause he'd written- Yeah ... like, sort of arrows of when I say no to him, like set a boundary, like, "You need to go to bed." Mm-hmm. "It's time to go bed," et cetera. Set to say, "No, no, no, no." So he'd written a, drawn a picture, a stick figure of me saying, "No, no, no" to him, and him then, carrying on to say, "No, no, no" to his children and that would be, like, so basically writing our generational trauma.
Wow. and then what would happen if he, the another flow, like arrow- Yeah ... down if I would've said yes to things, and then he could've seen for himself that actually doesn't feel very well if he stays up too late, and then he can say- Mm-hmm ... another arrow, tell his mates that, "No, I can't stay up late 'cause it's not good for me."
Mm-hmm. And so that's why he stated a, an argument for why I should say- Oh ... yes to him staying up later in that moment. You're like, "Do you wonder why bedtime takes a while?" Yeah, yeah, when it's- If you will, let me present- Yeah ... evidence A, like, this is my exhibit A. Yeah. and we often have to sit down and be like-where we talked about how much sugar he could eat.
I was like- Mm-hmm ... we're gonna have a sugar strategy meeting. State your terms." And we negotiated.
[00:45:23] Emma: Yeah, and that's the thing.
[00:45:23] Michaela: Don't think that's, that's typical.
[00:45:25] Emma: No, but I do think it's very key that, like a gifted brain and a 2E brain, they need the why. They do. It's not that thing of, "Okay, it's time to do this."
"Well, hang on. Why? Why do I need to do that now? Why do I have to do it in that way?" Because they're constantly- Mm ... going, "Ooh, but I could do it this way and I could do it that way. Oh, what about that? And what about that? And what about that?" And that, whilst they're doing all of that, they're not doing anything.
[00:45:49] Michaela: No.
[00:45:49] Emma: They're just sitting there. But internally, it's like, "Ooh, I could do it that way and that I, and I could like develop a like I... Ooh, that could be color-coded, and then that would link to that, and then that would link to that, and that..." But actually, all you're seeing is a kid who might just go, "Oh, I don't know"
[00:46:04] Michaela: Yeah, yeah And- The optimization- Yeah
is so paralyzing. And I see that in, in the adults, ADHD women- Yeah ... who are very bright that I see that, the sort of silent optimization of-
[00:46:13] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[00:46:13] Michaela: what is the best order to do something or best- Yeah ... format to do something, and you end up doing nothing.
[00:46:18] Emma: But actually- 'Cause you can't choose ... getting their buy-in, it adds the reward, it adds the
'Cause the reward charts aren't gonna work. Like, if there's any parent to a 2E child out there still using a reward chart, chuck it in the bin. It's not doing anything for your child. They, they're like- No ... "I don't care about a sticker. Like, what's the value- No ... of that sticker? I just won't have a sticker today."
Mm. You know? But- Mm ... if it's that thing of, you know, if you've got a 2E child that struggles with motivation for handwriting- Mm ... not the actual physicality, 'cause they might be dyspraxic or dysgraphic, and, but the actual motivation. If you say to them, "Could you help me write the shopping list? But, and I tell you what, because you're helping me, any three things that you put on that list I have to buy."
[00:47:05] Michaela: Ooh. "
[00:47:05] Emma: You have to write down the things I'm asking you, but if you also add three of your own things in there as a surprise, when I go to the shop, I'll have to buy them 'cause they're on the list." You know, like-
[00:47:17] Michaela: Ooh, challenge accepted. My son would go to town on that.
[00:47:19] Emma: Exactly, which is why I say put three things- Like, what is the biggest bag of
[00:47:21] Michaela: crisps you can sell?
[00:47:23] Emma: three things. Set a limit or else it- Yeah ... will just be ... But, you know- Yeah ... it's finding that hook, finding that buy-in. But, you know, I, we had a, where it was just the transition of leaving the house in the morning. I was like- Mm ... "Look, kids, I'm asking you multiple times, put on your shoes. Like, it's time to go."
Mm. "You understand what time we leave," things like that. But then when it comes to it, it, you're like, "Oh, I don't want to." And I said, "Look, this isn't nice for anyone. We don't, I don't feel like you're listening. You're getting annoyed that I keep asking you. What would work?" Mm. And, like, the, they come up with
Sometimes you get the, "I don't know." Mm. But my kids came up with, "Oh, maybe you tell us that the playroom floor is lava." Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay. We, we can try that." And it works. I don't use it every day, but when there's those days where I'm like, "Right, this isn't happening. They're not listening," I'm like, "Playroom floor is lava."
And they go, "Oh, quick, get the stuff." And then they'll be, like, in the porch ready to go because- Mm ... you know, that that was something that they came up with. So having- Mm ... that family meeting and saying, "Right, okay, what are your terms? How much sugar do you think is fair?" You know? Yeah. Like, parents have it a lot with things like gaming or, you know, crafting or just any transition, you know?
Yeah. And saying, "Okay, what do you think is fair in this?" Mm. "What would be..." And th- you going, "Okay, that, I, I see that. Now, my concern as your parent is, you know- Mm ... in your instance, I'm gonna have to have a conversation about the, with the dentist about- Mm ... why your teeth-"you know, why you need fill-ins or anything like that, if I let you have that.
But how would this sound as an agreement? Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And because they've been involved in that process, they've been given their why. You know, if you say- Mm-hmm ... "We need to put our shoes on now because we're about- Mm ... to leave the house, and if we don't have shoes on our feet when we leave the house- Mm
we're gonna potentially hurt our feet. Our socks are- Mm ... gonna get wet," anything like that. Okay. You know, and again- Mm ... it depends on each individual child, and these are just, like, examples. But if you- Mm ... can explain the why in a way that isn't patronizing and it isn't-
[00:49:42] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:49:42] Emma: because I've asked you to, 'cause I'm the parent.
Mm. You know, we still have moments where it's like, "I need you to hold my hand." Why? "Because my job is to keep you safe."
[00:49:52] Michaela: Mm.
[00:49:52] Emma: You know, that's my job. Yeah. And this isn't an environment that I feel you're safe in unless you're holding my hand- Mm ... because, like, cars are coming past quickly or there's lots of people, whatever it is.
But if they- Mm ... understand that my job is to keep them safe, that ... It's like, okay, right. And sometimes you might go, I, I'll go, "What's my job?" And they're like, "Keeping me safe," you know, and like- ... grab my hand. But they understand even if- Mm ... they don't agree with it in that moment. But I think sometimes people think that children are these little things we can program and we can- Yeah
mold. Yeah. And particularly with a two-year child, that just does not fly. No. It doesn't at all. You have to be prepared to have, like, the negotiation skills of, like, top prosecution lawyer in some instances. Yep. You think- Yep ... when you are an adult, good luck. You are gonna do well, like, in- Mm-hmm ... whatever field you want to do.
But what, right now I just need to get you out of this shop.
[00:50:52] Michaela: Yes, yeah. Just the, the simplicity and the basics, that need to happen when they're also always living in the complexity. They want- Yeah ... to live in the, the difficult. sometimes you're just like, "Well, we just need to trim your nails now." Yeah.
That's kind of a non-negotiable, and that can be really difficult. And I found for me it's been the biggest learning of, of flexibility, of- Mm-hmm ... of choosing to let things go and- Mm-hmm ... tolerating, you know, the ... I mean, the, the fear or the worry about being judged by other parents or- Oh, yeah ... wondering why we haven't had a haircut, why we haven't-
[00:51:24] Emma: Mm-hmm
[00:51:24] Michaela: uh, you know, why he hasn't gone in the shower. And I'm dreading when he's gonna come into teenage years. I'm hoping that that will create his why for him a bit more. Yeah. That actually now you're starting to have BO. Yeah. So now you will have to do it. So, there's a lot of those things that you think, "Why is this so challenging?"
[00:51:40] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:40] Michaela: But at the other, other, s- same time you can come up with remarkable things. But it's also the- The, you know, the cognitive ability, not just for maths and times tables, but also for perspective-taking. Yeah. Like, some of the most gentle, beautiful, social justice- Mm-hmm ... fairness things that come, have come out of my children's mouths because they can see things other people can't see.
[00:52:03] Emma: Yeah.
[00:52:03] Michaela: They will not go past a homeless person without asking me, "Have you got a banana in your bag?"
[00:52:07] Emma: Mm-hmm. "
[00:52:07] Michaela: Because I want to give them, they are hungry." Mm-hmm. So there's something there about the, it's not just an academic ability- No ... it's an ability to see the world differently- Yeah ... that I absolutely adore in my children.
[00:52:18] Emma: And
[00:52:18] Michaela: I think- Do you see that in the people you support too?
[00:52:20] Emma: Definitely. And I was just gonna say, like, when, when my eldest was learning about the Great Fire of London, right? Mm. He was inconsolable. They would do ... And, like, the teacher just kept saying, "It's okay. It's okay. Like, it happened a long time ago."
And then he went in, 'cause they've got an open door policy for the head teacher's office, and he went into the head teacher's office, and he was like, "I'm just so sad that all those people died, and it's really sad." Like, 'cause he understood the numbers. You know? Mm-hmm. It wasn't just a big number to him. He understood exactly what that sort of- Yeah
quantity was. Yeah. And the head teacher just went to him, "Do you know what? It is really sad. It is really sad, isn't it?" It is. "That all those families were impacted." And he was like- Mm ... "Yeah." You know? Mm. And it was that validation, and I think, like ... Oh, I've forgotten your question.
[00:53:09] Michaela: in terms of having that emotional sensitivity- Yeah
like, the, it's almost like their ability to see things that other people don't see.
[00:53:15] Emma: Yeah. So it's that- Yeah ... expectation that you think, "Well, like, it happened a long time ago, and that's gonna be fine." You know, like-
[00:53:22] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:53:22] Emma: my children will still get very upset at certain films, and I think, "Oh, can we not watch, like, something a bit more interesting?"
No, we're still crying at Disney. Mm. Okay, that's fine because they understa- you know, Wild Robot, ooh. Oof. Oof. Yeah, I know. That's- All of us- Yeah ... we're in floods. But you know- That's tear jerker ... when
you're trying to keep it together- Yeah ... and then you look along, and, the thing that you think, "Well, my child shouldn't really understand that 'cause they're not a parent."
[00:53:50] Michaela: Mm, they
[00:53:50] Emma: do. And they're in floods. Mm-hmm. You know? And I think a lot of families, they go, "But my child can be so empathetic and so loving, and then the next minute they'll tell me that they hate me and I've ruined their life."
Mm-hmm. Like, but that's because that's what they believe in- In a, in a flowchart
[00:54:08] Michaela: with algorithms
[00:54:11] Emma: Yeah, that is extreme. That is some commitment. I love that. But, you know, that was some persistence, wasn't it?
[00:54:16] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:54:17] Emma: You know, that- It was, yeah ... it seemed like you worked really hard on that flowchart. Thank you.
[00:54:22] Michaela: Yeah. And I see the effort. And I saved it, and I thought I'm gonna put that in, put that in a frame and tease him about it when he's old enough to appreciate it. Yeah, on-
[00:54:28] Emma: once you stop crying, you know, when you
[00:54:32] Michaela: realize- Yeah ... "Oh,
[00:54:32] Emma: yeah." Yeah. "
[00:54:32] Michaela: Okay, look. There it is." But I mean, it has le- it, it has led to some really good conversations though about, like, you know, that, that thing about when you can do a repair, but you've still- Mm-hmm
scrunched up a paper, and you've smoothed- Mm-hmm ... it out again, and the, the, the crinkles are still there. Yeah. So I've tried to speak to him about that, of when you are highly intelligent like that and you can see things other people don't see, he also knows how to go for the jugular. He knows- Oh, yes ... what, what can, what he can say.
So being really, like, aware of you can't just-
[00:55:00] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[00:55:01] Michaela: whack whatever out that comes out of your mouth because you want- Mm-hmm ... to win the thing you want to win. It's like- Yeah ... he's fighting fair basically rather than fighting dirty. So there's- Mm-hmm ... this every day is a school day with, with him. Yeah. And I think of the, what you said about the Great Fire of London and feeling- Mm-hmm
such immense sadness over the deaths that you can imagine and visualize yourself. Mm-hmm. Those are the kids that grown up to be the, the adults who cannot tolerate watching the news. Yeah. And that's okay. It's just too intense for the nervous system- Yeah ... because they can feel the suffering so deeply.
Those- Mm-hmm ... those are the grown-ups who turn into psychologists- Yeah ... like me- Yeah ... who are moved by
[00:55:34] Emma: suffering. I was gonna say, I don't l- I don't watch the news. I, when it comes on the radio- I don't either ... I'm like, "Nah, let's just not listen to that, and there's three minutes I can just-" Not think about it because- Yeah
it's just too hard. When you're already thinking about every- Mm ... like, you know, and it's the memory. When- Mm ... they remember something, like my children might say to me, "Oh, well, this happened on like the 27th of this, on this time and this time," and, or, "You said you were gonna do that," and it's not that. And you're like, "Okay."
You know? So we do have a lot of conversations around-
[00:56:09] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:56:10] Emma: that's a expression. But then we say like, "Oh, well, an idiom." And then it turned into a whole thing of what are more idioms, and then we had to learn- Mm ... all the idioms and their meanings. And sometimes you think, "I can't just say a throwaway thing," you know, like where some parents would say, "Oh, yeah, no, that's just a saying," and their kid would accept it.
But a- Mm-hmm ... 2E kid's like, "Ah, okay. So where did that come from? What's the origin of that?" Mm. "What does that mean?" Mm-hmm. And then they'll come out with these idioms, and then they'll just go, "Oh, and that's related to that, and that's related to that." And, you know, for when my kids were very little, you'd say, "Oh, look, there's a cow," as you were driving around, and then all of a sudden they'd be telling you the whole of the squash and a squeeze.
[00:56:55] Michaela: Yeah. Yep.
[00:56:56] Emma: And then that would lead on to another thing, and that would lead on to another thing. And this number's bigger than this one, and that's that. And then in this time that... And you're just like, "I just saw a cow. That's all this was."
[00:57:08] Michaela: Yes. And I don't need to hear the whole Gruffalo recited, like my son- Yeah
used to do that when he was two for, for amusing, all the staff at nursery. They'd be like, "Do it again. Can you do it again?" And he'd be like reciting the whole thing. And it's like he's not- Yeah ... you know, it's not, it's not for shits and giggles, but it, it is, it is fascinating and also utterly, soul-destroying to sometimes see them struggle when they get shut down by others.
And the-
[00:57:29] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:57:30] Michaela: it's like the darker side of giftedness is the self-esteem- Mm-hmm ... impact, right? When you feel- Oh ... that you are different.
[00:57:35] Emma: Yeah. Because I think that's a thing, and it ties into more generally about, like, kind of labeling. But these- Yeah ... kids know they're different. They might not understand why, but, you know, you...
A lot of 2E kids struggle socially- Mm-hmm ... and that's often because they understand they're different. They don't necessarily understand why. They've maybe come up with this really fun, elaborate game that they wanna play with their friend, and their friend- Mm-hmm ... just doesn't understand what the rules are.
Or, you know- Yeah ... they're really interested in space, and they're four years old, and they're saying, "Oh, well, this planet has this, and this planet has this, and this is a gas giant, and this is the density on the surface of that planet." And s- that kid that they're talking to is just like, "I, I don't know the name of the planets yet.
I know about stars, planets, and rockets." Yeah. So then- Yeah ... there's this automatic barrier for entry because- Mm ... you have the 2E child that's, like, really excited, wants to share that, and wants that connection, but isn't- Mm ... getting it, and is... They're interpreting that as, "Oh, well, no one's interested in what I'm interested in.
No one wants to play- Mm ... with me. No one..." Mm. Or they're told to kind of play something that that child wants to play-
[00:58:52] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:58:52] Emma: rather than what they want to play, and it's quite one-sided. Mm. So often you'll- Mm ... find a 2E child, if they're in an environment where they can mix with different age groups, will gravitate towards the older children.
[00:59:04] Michaela: The older. Mm. Yeah.
[00:59:06] Emma: Or the adults, because the adults- Mm ... will be adults and say, "Oh, no, that's interesting," and they might also know something. But you also have the older kids, in the best outcome, that doesn't see it- Mm ... as, oh, here's this little brainy kid coming and just telling us stuff, but they're interested.
So it's really helpful- Mm ... if, you know, you can have, like, a mentor program in the school- Mm-hmm ... and things like that, and you can, like, buddy up them based on their interests rather than their age- Mm ... because then they're getting that back and forth that they're not getting- Mm ... so it's more positive for their self-esteem.
Because if they're not around children like them, and they don't understand, they just think- Mm ... "Why have I gotta help so-and-so with their reading?" You know, like- Yeah ... 'cause that's the other thing, they'll get turned into, like, the mini teaching assistant sometimes.
[00:59:58] Michaela: Yes, they do.
[00:59:58] Emma: Or they'll put themselves in that role-
[01:00:01] Michaela: Mm
[01:00:01] Emma: because they're like, "I've gotta do something." 'Cause they try to help, especially
[01:00:03] Michaela: if they're friends. Yeah.
[01:00:04] Emma: Yeah. And they've gotta do something. Yeah. And then it kind of separates them, and they don't feel included, and-
[01:00:13] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:00:14] Emma: then the, it's never about anyone else, it's about them. Mm-hmm. "Well, there's something wrong with me.
It's because I don't take enough time with my work," or, "I am talking too much." And pe- Mm ... you know. So then that self-esteem is really negatively impacted because-
[01:00:31] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:00:32] Emma: they're just not around a lot of kids like them. Like, you know, you're talking about, like- Mm ... 2% of the population here. We're not-
[01:00:37] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:00:38] Emma: You know?
Yeah. Which I know is funny because obviously in this conversation we're both 2E adults with 2E children. Yeah. But- Yeah ... you know, it's such a small percentage that, you know, you can't just get them all together. No, you can't. Well, you know- And even if you did, that doesn't mean they're gonna get along because they have different interests and things like that.
But it's really- Of course ... key- Yeah ... that they're able- Yeah ... to see that it's not something wrong with them, it's just a difference. Yeah. And but it's hard when you've got a kid that's like, "I just want friends. Just wanna get- Yeah ... along with people." And you're going, "Well, when you go to uni, if you go- Mm ... to uni, then you'll be doing something about your special interest and so will everyone else."
'Cause that's such a long- Yeah ... time for a child to wait. And I think that's one of the things- It is. That's entire childhood gone. Exactly. And what, they're just ticking it off. They're clocking in for their school time and things like that, and I think that's one of the things- A lot of parents struggle with because they feel like- Mm-hmm
my child's not getting anything they need, and then they feel this pressure to be- Mm ... everything that that child is missing-
[01:01:42] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:01:43] Emma: in school- Mm ... in their friendships. So they'll put on the like, "Okay, right, we'll do a special trip for that museum, and there's that exhibition," and, "Oh, I've signed you up- Mm ... for this online chess club because no one locally likes chess."
And I know that a lot of these- Mm ... are stereotypes, but you know, I'm just thinking about things that are easily, like, grasped as, you know- Mm ... obviously if your kid likes football, near enough every little town or village- Mm ... has a local football team that your kid could go- Yeah ... along to. But if- Yeah ... it's like your kid loves maths or astronomy or, you know, ancient history, there's not-
[01:02:20] Michaela: Mm
[01:02:20] Emma: that-
[01:02:21] Michaela: No ...
[01:02:21] Emma: there for them, you know? So you do have to hunt these things out, and then parents feel like, "Oh, I can't find anything, so it's fine. I'll just do this with you. I'll sign up for that webinar at the, you know, Royal College- Mm ... and then you can watch it." And you know, it's just- Mm ... "I'll read that book- There's a lot of pressure
to make sure it's age appropriate before you read it." Yeah. A
[01:02:41] Michaela: lot of pressure for the kids then as well to-
[01:02:43] Emma: Yeah ...
[01:02:44] Michaela: to feel that they can be stimulated for, for the, for the parents to provide that. I do find- Mm-hmm ... that that's a lot of, you know, I see some of my neurotypical friends and they're, you know, of average intelligence or above.
Mm-hmm. But there's a big difference between, you know, being of average intelligence and the top 2%, that in terms of stimulation need to feed the children. I see some of those- Yeah ... neurotypical families and the kids just go off and play.
[01:03:09] Emma: Yeah.
[01:03:09] Michaela: And it's like, oh, they just go and play. They don't have to be- Mm-hmm
fed stimulation. They don't have to be like, "Well, I'm bored." Yeah. they don't have to argue about what snack to have or, you know, whether they're gonna do, a shower tonight or tomorrow. Yeah. This is a lot of effort that is done for the parents to support- Mm-hmm ... the, those children. Or they drop them off at school-
[01:03:25] Emma: especially if it's not seen ... and walk away- Yeah ... like, "Oh, that's all cool."
[01:03:29] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:03:29] Emma: And you just think- Yeah ... wow. Like-
[01:03:32] Michaela: Yeah ...
[01:03:32] Emma: what, you, you just walk away from school and you think that it's all gonna be all right. You don't need to worry about- Yeah ... if you're gonna get called that your kids refuse to do the work or they're not- Mm
you know? And it's that level, what do you mean you don't need to attend like termly meetings to talk about-
[01:03:48] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:03:48] Emma: what their current interests are and how you can hook their learning- Mm ... into those things? And it's not- Yeah ... anything against neurotypical parents, and- Mm ... even like neurodivergent parents, and I think sometimes- Being a 2E parent is even more isolating- Mm-hmm
because you can't really relate to a lot of the SEN parents because- Mm-hmm ... you know, particularly depending on the support needs, the... It's really difficult, and you don't wanna feel like- Yeah ... you're competing in a way.
[01:04:21] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:04:22] Emma: And, and then you talk to neurotypical parents, and they're like, "Oh, nice problem to have.
I wish my kid would read." And you think, "No, that's- Yeah ... that's not what I'm talking about. Like, I'm having to have a meeting because they're reading five years ahead." But-
[01:04:36] Michaela: Yes ...
[01:04:37] Emma: refusing to in school
[01:04:38] Michaela: And asking questions about what, they've read in their book that they're emotionally not ready for yet.
[01:04:42] Emma: Yeah.
[01:04:43] Michaela: I mean, I did that too. I think I read Stephen King when I was 10. Oof. It's not quite, not quite ready for it, but you know, it's- No ... that, that was engaging 'cause I liked the way he, he wrote- ... his language. And I've found that's a lovely way to connect with my child now, reading some of the books that are probably, like, what, ahead of him, but not yet grown-up books.
Mm-hmm. So we read, Evenfall by Alexandra
[01:05:05] Emma: Armstrong- Mm-hmm ...
[01:05:06] Michaela: because no doubt he's probably 2E as well. The language is done very intricate, and it's- Mm-hmm ... almost feels like he's painting a picture with words. Yeah. And I found that kind of reaching, reaching down towards my son and him reaching up towards me, and I'm thinking- Mm-hmm
as long as there's no, no emotionally inappropriate content- Yeah ... that's a lovely connection. And we talked- Mm-hmm ... about what we saw in it or what could happen in, in the second book, and I enjoyed it. It's like a- Mm-hmm ... a lovely read to read, you know, mysteries for children. So I've tried to enter his worlds, you know.
Mm-hmm. I know far more about Minecraft and Pokémon than I'd ever thought I'd want. Oh, cool. But you know, it's, But Pokémon can also be, 'cause I'm interested in psychology. Mm-hmm. We did a, a fun thing in the car on the way home from Center Parcs, because boredom in car is awful, right? Mm-hmm. asking ChatGPT to describe all of us family members, as various different Pokémons.
And it was, very accurate. And then, you know, doing- What type were you? ... Pokémon quizzes.oh, who was I? Psyduck, I think. Oh. Which-
[01:06:04] Emma: Oh, wow ...
[01:06:04] Michaela: which makes sense. Yeah ... psy- psychic type, you know. Yeah. and also, Mew, I think. Mm-hmm. Never mind, but yeah. So the ones that- Yeah ... are sort of very... My whole team, we could also build our own team and the- Mm-hmm
Pokémons we, we picked, for it to analyze what type of army we'd build, and mine were all like- Oh, wow ... emotion, focusing on emotion- ... psychology and, Yeah ... yeah. It's interesting. So yeah, that's, that's the stuff that you think, "I didn't think I was gonna do that with my kids."
[01:06:31] Emma: No.
[01:06:32] Michaela: But it's actually really interesting.
And hearing- Yeah ... their worldview. And so if you have the patience to listen It's easier to have that if you also set, set those boundaries when you don't- Yeah ... have the patience to listen. Yeah. Otherwise, they would, they will eat you up.
[01:06:45] Emma: Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, sorry, what?" Or even from another room sometimes- Yeah
they'll be, "Oh- Yeah ... did you know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" And you're like, "I can't even hear you right now." Yeah. "Because I'm at- Yeah ... the other end of the room, an extractor fan's on, and what?" And then they'll get annoyed that you haven't answered them, and you're like, "If you... Come to me. Talk to me."
Yeah. I w- but, because they don't wanna stop what they're doing, but they also wanna tell you- Yeah ... it's very difficult. But I think like- It's tiring ... yeah. I think h- having those boundaries is really positive. Yeah. I think that it teaches them that impulse control a little bit as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But also that it's okay to say, "I n- need a break."
'Cause, like, we'll be in the car on the way home- Mm ... from school, and I'll, you know, some... One of my kids likes to talk on the way home, one of them doesn't. I'll be like, "Oh, how was it?" And one, my, my son will go, "Mommy, I'm just gonna look out of the window. I don't wanna talk right now." And I'm like, "Okay." Love that.
"Not a problem."
[01:07:50] Michaela: Love that. Yeah.
[01:07:51] Emma: Not a problem. He's not going, "Ugh," and shouting at me. He's going- Mm ... "I think I just need some time." So, and I think- Yeah ... well, yeah. Great. You know? And, like- Yeah ... earlier when you were talking about those moments where the, like, emotional intelligence and the empathy come through.
You know, mine were playing board games. My youngest struggles a lot with losing, and- Mm ... we had this, it's like a falling monkeys game, and she thought that you had to collect the most monkeys. Like, it's a bit like a Kerplunk thing but with monkeys. So you pull the sticks out- Mm ... the monkeys fall down. She thought you had to collect the most monkeys and- Mm
we said, "Oh no, it's about making sure you have the least amount of monkeys." And she was distraught. And my- Mm ... eldest, who's just under three years older, went, "Oh, but look." And he picked up one of the sticks and he hooked all her monkeys on. He was like, "But look how, look. Oh." And he was like trying to make it funny, like all these monkeys sliding up and down the stick.
And then every time she pulled a stick out and more monkeys fell out, he was like, "Yay, more monkeys," sort of thing.
[01:08:58] Michaela: Oh,
[01:08:59] Emma: God. And you're just like, in those moments you're like, "Okay, yes." And I will hear them- Yeah ... say to each other, "That's not a want, that's a need."
[01:09:07] Michaela: Yes.
[01:09:07] Emma: Oh, I love that. And it's hilarious. And you just go- Yeah
and you go, "But yet you're shouting at me when I'm saying so." Mm. But no, you can apply it to s- "No, I don't want to do that. You don't need me to do that. That's a want." Mm-hmm. "You don't need me." And you just think, but, you know- Yeah ... it's easier to apply that logic. But- But you know the skills are there.
[01:09:28] Michaela: Yeah.
And that's, that's the bit that they will grow up and hopefully bring it to someone, you know- Hopefully ... to, to their own children and again, they're developing, right? So I think it's the, as a sort of final summary to really think about one of the most useful things I did, in school, 'cause we're talking a lot about advocacy for our child, right?
Yeah. But you've also talked about self-advocacy there, saying, "I need to look out the window." Yeah. That's them learning from you, how do I notice my needs? How do I express those? Mm-hmm. How do I ask for them to be met? That's high level stuff that most adults can't do fir- first off. But one of the things I've tried to do to summarize his school to show my son's need is to use the analogy of, like you said, about football.
You know, there are kids in the, in the class that can run really fast. Mm-hmm. Fast at ball. They're, you know, maybe a bit taller than the others, but there are some kids in the class who really love running, and you don't tell them, "Slow down, don't run so fast," in that race. Mm-hmm. So I said, "My, my son really needs to run fast both with his legs and with his brain."
Yeah. And when he gets to run fast, so that's why he needs to have movement breaks and do the football. Mm-hmm. But he also needs to run in, with his brain. And then it felt- Mm-hmm ... less like it was like, "Why are you not stimulating him?" Mm-hmm. And more about this is just how he is and how he would be well.
Yeah. Then they started noticing, okay, we'll give him some more extensions, and they-
[01:10:42] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:10:43] Michaela: they saw that his brain needed to run fast. Mm-hmm. It's also a great way, I find, that I've explained it to him so that he can make sense of his impatience and-
[01:10:51] Emma: Mm ...
[01:10:51] Michaela: the need to know why, why, why, why, why, why. Mm-hmm.
Because, like, you're just running fast in your brain right now.
[01:10:56] Emma: Yeah.
[01:10:56] Michaela: Even then, sometimes we need to sit down and take a break. Mm-hmm. 'Cause even your brain's gonna be tired if you're running that fast all the time. Yeah.
[01:11:03] Emma: We use the analogy of a tornado brain a lot, you know, because- Yeah ... we say, like, there's so much in that tornado, and you just can't pull it out because it's moving too fast.
And you know that scene- Yeah ... in Frozen 2 where she freezes certain things- Mm ... when they're in the Enchanten Forest. I'm like, "You just need to freeze something. Try and, like, focus on what it is," and we've done the mind mapping, which I think your son would love. Well, obviously- Mm ... he's already doing it with his flow charts.
Yeah. But you know, trying to pull out those things and saying, "Right, what's this about? What-- Everything that's in your brain right now, just put it down. Don't worry, it doesn't matter what it looks like. Let's just scribble it out," or, "I'll write it down for you." And then you go, "Okay, and what comes off that?"
That externalizing it can be really helpful for that- Mm ... processing, and it is them understanding that the speed, particularly if you've got the ADHD 2E profile, it's just like-
[01:11:57] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[01:11:57] Emma: speed, speed, speed, speed, speed. And, like, wanting to get through everything is really difficult to manage, and it's not that they're not able to, but they just need to learn how to.
You know? Mm-hmm. Because I think 2E kids will get really frustrated, you know. Mm. It ties into that self-esteem. It ties into them, even if it's not at home, but at school, them being told, "Oh, you're so clever. Oh, clever clogs," you know, and things like that- Mm ... that's well-meaning, but actually- Mm ... it becomes their identity.
[01:12:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:12:30] Emma: And then when something threatens that identity because they don't understand how to learn- Mm ... then it's the, "I can't do it. I'm useless." or- Mm ... "I'm just gonna pretend," or the extension task's just gonna magically disappear, you know? Mm-hmm. Or they're given something that says it's for a year group that's two years above, and they're like, "I can't do that."
And they just disengage- Yeah ... or try to be really silly. You know? Mm-hmm. You get a lot of class clown because it's that, "I don't know how to connect, so I'll make people laugh 'cause I understand how to make people laugh." 'Cause you get this kind of mature sense of humor sometimes in a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. A lot of wordplay and things like that.
[01:13:11] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[01:13:12] Emma: Wittiness.
[01:13:13] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:13:13] Emma: yeah. So they play off that without really understanding that all, all you're doing now is causing a disruption. Mm-hmm. But the disruption, the base of it is that kid's bored.
[01:13:26] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[01:13:27] Emma: But I
[01:13:28] Michaela: think finding- That's something that happens all the time, isn't it? Yeah. Looking for the stimulation, starting something, provoking something because something needs to happen, especially- Mm-hmm
if you've finished all your work then. on the topic of the, the perfectionism, something we've done, for anyone listening and wanting another concrete thing- Mm ... is because it's really hard to teach growth mindset when it's so close to home. Like, we'll try to draw another picture. You know, tolerate that.
It can be really hard. So what we- Yeah, especially in the moment ... what we found as a good way-- especially in the moment because it's, they're dysregulated, right?
[01:13:56] Emma: Yeah.
[01:13:56] Michaela: Fully and bothered in the moment. What we found helpful to, to, to, to start that conversation is that we've been watching something, I think the YouTube channel is called, It's Amazing or Amazing Family- Mm
or something like that. So it's this family of quite wholesome values, right? If you have strong opinions about YouTube, you can watch this together with them. And all they do is, like, practicing trick shots. So bottle flips- ... and, like, throwing Frisbees in basketball hoops. Yeah. And they started this YouTube channel, like, many years ago, and they talk about how, how many hours they have to- Mm
flip a bottle before they've managed to do the trick shot. Mm-hmm. And they show you the fails, too. Yeah. They show you the ones that are really, like, crap. and I love that for showing the process and the progress- Yeah ... of y- not giving up and trying- Yeah ... to tolerate, "That was a bit shit. What do I do now?"
Yeah. And calibrating. So after we've watched that, knowing it's not at all about the things my s- my hus- my son is doing-
[01:14:46] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:14:47] Michaela: it was easier to say, "Well, that's a bit like, you know, practicing a lot of times to, to draw something." Or-
[01:14:52] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:14:52] Michaela: I wonder how many times they would've done that bottle flip before they- Mm
nailed it. And, like, if we just see stuff that other people are doing, they just nailed it immediately, we don't see the, like, years and-
[01:15:02] Emma: Mm, yeah ...
[01:15:03] Michaela: years of practice leading into it. Yeah. So that's really helped us to unblock a little bit, like, actually if you want to achieve something, to that standard, you gotta practice and you're gonna tolerate being- Yeah
a bit rubbish to begin with.
[01:15:14] Emma: Yeah. And, like, it's that whole thing of, like, practice makes progress rather than practice- Mm-hmm ... makes perfect. And I would say things like musical instruments are really good for the resilience- Mm-hmm ... and the perfectionism 'cause there's very few kids or people that can just am- be amazing at a musical instrument- Mm
straight away. Because something like piano, you have to build up your muscles in your hands. Your little finger's not gonna have the same amount of strength, you know? Mm-hmm. So it is gonna sound terrible before it sounds good. Yeah. But- Yeah ... you know, it's something that, I would always say, like, with instruments, a piano's a good one to start with because you hit a key and it makes the note.
Mm-hmm. It's not like a violin where you have to have your finger- Yeah ... in the exact- Yeah ... right position for it- Yeah ... to sound decent. You know, and languages and all of those things where it has to be a gradual- Mm ... acquisition of skills rather than- Mm ... I read it and I know it, is really- Yeah ... good for a 2E kid and for perfectionism because it's- pushing them a little bit.
They need to- Mm ... that challenge, but it's doing it, you don't... If they're struggling in something You don't go, "Right, we'll just keep practicing that. We're gonna do it, we're gonna do it," because that's just- Mm ... shining a light on what they're feeling really self-conscious about.
[01:16:30] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[01:16:30] Emma: Whereas if it's something completely different, they'll learn- Mm
the skills of the resilience- Mm ... and like overcoming the challenges that- Yeah ... growth mindset, I don't know it yet, all of that, they'll learn that there. And you're able- Yeah ... to say, "But do you remember when you- Mm ... couldn't play that song on the piano and you've just played it?" Mm. You know? Mm. What helped you keep going?
What helped- Yeah ... you learn that? You know, did you know how... 'Cause sometimes I'll use really ridiculous examples. I'll be like, "You know, when you were a baby, you couldn't walk. Imagine- Mm ... if you could walk as soon as you were born, how weird would that look?" Yeah, yeah. And they'll find it hilarious. You know?
Yeah. It'd be like, "You had to crawl backwards before you crawled forwards, and there was this one time you got stuck under the sofa." And they're like cracking up laughing. Mm.
[01:17:15] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:17:15] Emma: But it's an example that is so obvious-
[01:17:20] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[01:17:20] Emma: that they go, "Okay, right, I had to build that up"- Yeah ... rather than, "Well, you couldn't learn to re- you didn't know how to read."
And they're like, "What do you mean? I-" Mm. "I didn't need to learn to read." 'Cause they were like so little.
[01:17:33] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[01:17:34] Emma: But really physical, visual examples are great-
[01:17:38] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:17:38] Emma: for that.
[01:17:39] Michaela: Yeah. And you could bring in some bit of slapstick into it as well, like watching people go ice skating and falling on their bum or- Oh
you know, toddlers stumbling. It's, it's, it's kind of showing that nobody can nail these skills from the- ... word get-go, and tolerating that is really important. I think a final little thing we do in the podcast is asking for a takeaway. So if- Yeah ... it would be a permission you wanted to give anyone listening- Mm-hmm
who's possibly a parent of a 2E child, what pressure you wanna take off them, what would that be?
[01:18:10] Emma: I think the main thing would be, and we touched on it earlier, like that you don't have to be everything to your child. You know? Mm. I think often the, a parent of a 2E child ends up feeling like they have to be the teacher that picks up the slack- Mm
that, 'cause they're not stimulated, and you think like, just like when you are finished with your workday, you need some time off, your child needs that time off, and you kind of need to work on building the relationship with the school if they're in school.
[01:18:39] Michaela: Mm.
[01:18:40] Emma: You know? Mm-hmm. You need to build that relationship with the school.
You're not a teacher. If you're choosing to have them in education, you need to work on that dynamic and not feel like- Mm ... I have to make up for everything my kid's missing. But also relieving that pressure that just because your child has potentially some abilities that are- Mm-hmm ... much higher, maybe they really understand physics or chemistry, does not mean that they have to do that.
If they wanna talk- Mm ... about Pokemon, if they wanna watch Bluey, if they wanna do any of the things, if they wanna laugh at fart jokes endlessly- That's okay. Just because- Mm ... they have those skills doesn't mean they need to be using them, like, every single area. Mm. Because I think sometimes when you have a child that's advanced in some areas, parents feel like, "Okay, well, you know, we've gotta do their GCSE early, and we've gotta do this early, and we've gotta get them into Mensa-" Yeah
"or we've got..." And then you're just like- Mm ... well, they're a child, you know? Yeah. So I think it's like that permission to let them have a childhood, and trust- Mm ... that the, as long as you can keep that love of learning- As long as you can keep that curiosity, everything else will catch up. The thing to focus on is that, like, emotional resilience, that-
[01:19:57] Michaela: Mm
[01:19:58] Emma: growth mindset because you know they learn quickly. When they're interested- Mm ... in something, they'll get it. You know? Like- Yeah ... a lot of these kids don't learn to ride a bike until they're like, "Oh, if I don't learn to ride a bike, I can't go to my friend's house on my own." Mm. Right? Better learn to ride a bike, and that kid will learn bike in record time.
[01:20:18] Michaela: Yeah, because their motor skills are ready for it as well. Mm-hmm. They're, they're ready- Yeah ... and just clicks and goes. And then they're all so different, aren't they? You know, it's- Yeah ... it's been really helpful to listen to this and having that permission to be kinder to yourself, and especially the last bit you said because there might be people listening wondering, "How am I gonna do all of these things now?"
Mm-hmm. "How have... Answer these questions like this when I'm juggling full-time work- Yeah ... one or more of the children, and- Mm-hmm ... maybe own physical illness or their own, you know, executive dysfunction and- Mm ... or perimenopause. Hello, chaos. where you're feeling like your 2E child is talking at you nonstop and your brain cannot cope with any more noise.
It's, it's hard. Mm-hmm. Like, so I think both of us having that experience, where we know it's, it's not that you do this one hack and then it's sorted. It's, it's a challenge.
[01:21:05] Emma: No, oh, if only. Like, that's one thing I always say- Yeah ... to parents, like, "I'm really sorry, but I don't have the magic wand." Mm-hmm. "I can give you ideas.
I can give you strategies. You will need to change those strategies to work with your child-" Yeah "... and with your family, and also adapt them," because me saying, "Do this," if you're completely- Mm ... emotionally dysregulated, you're not able- Mm-hmm ... to do that. But if y- I could say, say give yourself permission to have that time, to set that boundary- Mm-hmm
to set the timer. Like, don't do it for 60 minutes. Do it for five minutes. Mm. Depending on the age of your child, maybe if they're really little, you say, you know, "We're gonna do two minutes, and then we'll build it up." Mm. But really- Yeah ... giving yourself permission to actually not have to be everything for your child just because- Yeah
they're not, their needs aren't being met elsewhere.
[01:21:54] Michaela: Mm.
[01:21:54] Emma: It's okay. You don't
[01:21:55] Michaela: have to.
[01:21:56] Emma: Yeah. And I think that's really hard. It's okay. For parents generally- It is really hard ... but for 2E parents, where they're just like, "My child's needs aren't being met because they're neurodivergent and they're not recognized.
Their academic needs aren't being met. I need- Mm ... to become an occupational therapist and have a PhD level knowledge of, like, maths." Mm. You can't.
[01:22:15] Michaela: No.
[01:22:16] Emma: You're not a robot. You can't. And it's okay to just say, "Do you know what? We're gonna watch Crunch Labs."
[01:22:21] Michaela: Yes, I love CrunchLabs
[01:22:22] Emma: Oh. Yeah Except all the adverts for, like, buy this kit that you can only get in America.
Yeah. You're like- Yeah ... what would shipping cost me?
[01:22:30] Michaela: I have had that same thought this morning. also, I think it's mildly amusing to watch, so it's fun for me- Yeah ... as a, as a grown-up. The
[01:22:36] Emma: squirrels.
[01:22:37] Michaela: The sq- oh, the squirrels. That was the good one, and the, the dog one when they did the sniffer dog. Have you seen that one?
Oh,
[01:22:42] Emma: yeah.
[01:22:43] Michaela: Yes. So yeah, so anyone who wants to dive into more knowledge that you can tolerate, You know, you're learning alongside your child.
[01:22:50] Emma: Yeah
[01:22:50] Michaela: I'm learning stuff about school that I never picked up the first time around in school Yeah ... and it's like, it's quite helpful to learn about the Great Fire of London, right?
[01:22:57] Emma: Yeah. Well- So- Yeah.
[01:22:59] Michaela: Yeah, well.
[01:23:00] Emma: No, I mean, you will- Squirrels
[01:23:01] Michaela: are more interesting.
[01:23:01] Emma: You will go through so many. You go, "Just as I've finally got all the dinosaurs down, oh, we're, now we're onto sea creatures. Okay."
[01:23:08] Michaela: Yes. "
[01:23:09] Emma: Oh, now we're onto ancient Egyptians. Now we're onto ancient Romans." You know, y- there's no point in- Yeah
get a- There's no point ... get a magazine subscription. We love ENCYCLOPEDIA. We love What on Earth?, all of those things, so they just come through every month.
[01:23:23] Michaela: Oh. Well, we have, we have The Week Junior. That's quite good as well.
[01:23:26] Emma: Oh, we had that, but it was a bit too much with the- Was
[01:23:30] Michaela: it too much news?
[01:23:31] Emma: Yeah Was it
Yeah.
[01:23:34] Michaela: Can you say the other two again?
[01:23:36] Emma: Aquila, which is- Mm-hmm ... you know, A-Q-U-I-L-A. Mm-hmm ... What on Earth, and we also have, Science and Nature magazine subscriptions. Mm. Yeah Because they're always something interesting. Like, in the Aquila ones they have Taskmaster challenges,Mm ... and things like that.
So, but subscriptions, if someone says- Yeah ... "What should I get your kid?" Get that magazine subscription.
[01:24:01] Michaela: Yes. '
[01:24:02] Emma: Cause-
[01:24:02] Michaela: Yeah,
[01:24:02] Emma: that's a great one ... you know, that takes ... It's the novelty, it comes through, but it's interesting and it's not patronizing and ... Yeah.
[01:24:08] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:24:08] Emma: But you will probably then have a, every month, "Oh, now we need to learn all about that.
Now we n- ... The library is your best friend."
[01:24:16] Michaela: Yes. We, we go to the library a lot, and it's really helpful. especially for those, create your own path books, where you choose- Oh, yeah ... your own path books, that you can be sort of deciding what, what direction you go. Oh, yeah ... that's really helpful as well.
[01:24:29] Emma: Have you c- come across the Maths Quest, Science Quest and History Quest books?
[01:24:33] Michaela: No, I'm not sure.
[01:24:34] Emma: Oh. Yeah, you'll like those, or your child will like those. Yeah. And Murderous Maths. They're like Horrible Histories- Murderous Maths ... but for
[01:24:41] Michaela: maths. Ooh, Murderous Maths. We do, we do love a murder mystery. Which, you know- Yeah
y- I've said to him, like, "This does not mean you get to go and bring this to realia- reality," but he just likes the deduction, right? Yeah. You're looking for the clues and you're trying to solve the mystery, so he loves that. Mm-hmm. He just seemed to think that a lot of people get murdered these days, so, yeah.
It's ... But, again, like, the final thought I was gonna ask is, like, you know what? We talked a lot about challenge, but can I ask you honestly, do you have a lot of fun in your family?
[01:25:06] Emma: Oh, y- yeah. Like, I think sometimes, depending on, like, our stress levels as parents- Yeah ... and our regulation, we'll be more fun than other times.
But, you know- Yeah ... it is that kind of just, "All right. We're taking a deep dive into this now. Okay, cool. Let's do it." Mm. "Oh, okay." Like, we're, the way we're gonna get our kid to walk from that end to that end is by doing, we're going on a bear hunt, you know? Yeah. It's finding all of those little moments. And some of the conversations they come out with-
[01:25:37] Michaela: Mm
[01:25:38] Emma: it's just ridiculous. And, you know, I love the things of, like, we sometimes do a, like, random fact of the day. You know? Mm. We do, at tea time, we do, like, our rose and thorn. Like, what was our high point? What was the thing that we didn't like about our day? But sometimes we also do, like, a random fact or w- a joke.
And some of the things- Mm ... they come out with, you're just like, "Wow, I genuinely didn't know that." Like, you can tell how old- Mm ... a whale is by its ear wax.
[01:26:06] Michaela: Mm. Yeah, stuff like that. Really random things.
[01:26:08] Emma: And, yeah. So I love all of those interactions, and I love, like- those conversations, but I also think it's quite funny because they think that they're obviously more intelligent than anyone in the house.
And when you go, "Oh, yeah, I knew that," and like, "This ties into that," then it's like, "What?"
[01:26:25] Michaela: Yeah. "
[01:26:25] Emma: You know about that?" Yeah. And you're like, "Where do you think your brain wiring- Yeah ... comes from?"
[01:26:31] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Where'd you get that from? It's funny how the sort of the, the kindness that can come in it, and, you know, my son having, having me model those boundaries for a while, he will sometimes say to me, "Do you need to go up and meditate?"
And he's nine. He's like... It's like, and I was like, "Oh, that's so kind of you, but I also know you're saying that so you can go and grab the tablet." Yeah. So, so it's twofold. Like, he said, "No, no, I honestly think you look a bit tired. Maybe you need to go meditate." I'm like, "Mm-hmm. What are you look- Yeah ... what are you after," right?
Yeah. "What do you want?" But it's that sense of it's starting to s- trickle in that, you know- Yeah ... there's things we need in the family, and that when I've had people come to the house that have not been to the house before, he will bring them along to the piano and point to how his mom has written a book and how h- she- Aw
these are her awards and stuff. so, you know, we think that they don't pay attention, but they do.
[01:27:16] Emma: Oh,
[01:27:17] Michaela: they do. They really, really ... They pay attention to everything. It's just absorbed.
[01:27:21] Emma: And I, I remember having a just, like, really stressful time at one point, and my son went to me, "Mommy, you really do so much, don't you?"
He was like, "'Cause you're looking after us, and you're doing this thing, and you're doing that thing, and you're looking after the do- and you..." And I was just like, "Do you know what? Yeah, mate, I have got a lot on." And he was like, "That must be hard." Aw. And you wanna be like, "It
[01:27:46] Michaela: is." And then you're like- But- "Do you want a new, do you want a new Pokemon card?
Or what, what are your options?" Oh. But yeah.
[01:27:52] Emma: No. No. Well, there was a moment, I'm, just very briefly tell you this story. He was, he was two, and he was walking around with the TV remote, and he was like, "And he had everything he needed. 'Hmm, where's the remote?' He said to himself, but then he got it. 'Oh, let's sit and watch some TV,' said Mommy."
And he's, like, doing it like it's a whole story because he thought, "Ah, that way I'll get to watch the TV." And, you
[01:28:20] Michaela: know-
[01:28:20] Emma: Mm ... just like, really?
[01:28:22] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:28:22] Emma: Really? You
[01:28:24] Michaela: know? And sometimes you just, sometimes I just go, "Touché. Fine."
[01:28:27] Emma: Yeah. "You
[01:28:28] Michaela: win." And you're like, "
[01:28:28] Emma: Fine, put it on,
[01:28:29] Michaela: mate." 'Cause, like-
[01:28:29] Emma: Like, the,
[01:28:29] Michaela: the effort ... you can have it.
You've argued it in such a hilarious way that I'm like- Yeah ... eh. Yeah. And it, it is again, it's what comes back into our relationship, right? Yeah. It's rather than digging our heels in, it's just like, if you can laugh at it and-
[01:28:41] Emma: Yeah ...
[01:28:42] Michaela: yeah. Sometimes I've, I've high-fived him, and he's like, the glint in his eye, 'cause he's like, "I know.
I've impressed you, haven't I?" Yeah. And I'm like, "Yeah, you did, kind of, actually, so..."
[01:28:51] Emma: Well, and the- "It's fine" ... my daughter at the moment, she's going through a phase where, and I don't know where she's learnt this, but it was, I said, "Oh, look, you know, I, I wish your first response wasn't that." And she went, "Well, bad luck 'cause it is."
And I was like, "Oh." And then I heard her brother say like, "I really need some time to myself. Could you leave my room please?" And she went, "Well, bad luck. I'm here." And just, like- ... kept getting closer. And I thought, "Oh."
[01:29:19] Michaela: Sassy.
[01:29:20] Emma: Sassy. Yeah. Mm. You think-
[01:29:22] Michaela: Yeah ...
[01:29:22] Emma: help us when, when she's a teenager. But I just think those moments you do have to laugh.
Yeah. Like, not in a way where it's like, "Oh yeah, sure. Great. Get away with that." But just because you think, "Do you know what? Like, when I was little, I told my parents they were despicable- Mm ... and I was four. 'You're despicable. I'm gonna go and sit under my desk until I'm 90 or how, until you learn how to be a decent parent.'"
At four.
[01:29:44] Michaela: Mm.
[01:29:45] Emma: I came out from under- Yeah ... the desk, but you know, you have to kinda go, "My ki- my kids just used those words in the correct context. I don't like how it was used-"
[01:29:53] Michaela: Yeah ... "but-" No ... "
[01:29:54] Emma: hats off to you."
[01:29:56] Michaela: Yeah. And again, that's, that's goes to show that we've, we're doing different things to the generation before us, which that would've been, you know, so- Oh
disrespectful or don't, don't talk that way to, grown-ups, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I just, I have to go in the other room and go 'cause I can't not laugh about it. Yeah. 'Cause it's hilarious, the stuff that they come out with sometimes.
[01:30:13] Emma: Yeah, where you're like that. But- I know no one can see it, but where you're like that Trying to just like get back- Yeah
no, we cannot talk to each other like that. You're allowed to have whatever feelings you like, but you cannot use them to hurt other people. Mm. But inside you're going, "That was hilarious."
[01:30:30] Michaela: Yes, you cannot say that. And it's like, "Don't call your sister a pooper head." you know, the things that c- the things that come out of our mouths, right?
Yeah. That you don't think you were gonna say. But, yeah, I hope that this has been helpful for anyone listening as well, that, you know, you're not alone in this if you have a, a, a two E child. And yes, there are r- many dimensions in it. And if you wanna see more of what, Emma does with Kind of Extraordinary, you can head over to her website, and I'll pop the link to that, which I believe is kindofextraordinary- .co.uk What, what was...
.co.uk. Brilliant, so I'll pop that in the- And there is
[01:31:01] Emma: actually a, two E resource on there as well.
[01:31:04] Michaela: Brilliant ... so it's a bit, it's got a bit of a checklist ... you got, if you go there, downloads you can get.
[01:31:07] Emma: Yeah.
[01:31:07] Michaela: Brilliant. Thank you. So, and, they can find you on Instagram as well?
[01:31:11] Emma: Yep, Instagram, that's where I, yeah.
Y- you'll see me doing a lot of silly things on reels, but there is a lot of like information as well. You know, I put a lot of things about personal experience and like advocacy and all of those things goes into it because I think that's the things that parents really need, you know- Yeah ... knowing the language to use and knowing how to open those conversations.
[01:31:35] Michaela: Yes, very much the case. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast
Thank you, dear listener, for coming to the end of this episode. And it's always a scary one when I talk about twice exceptionality or giftedness, because it triggers so much shame in so many people in our community, where we are told that we are too much, and don't be arrogant, and don't toot your own horn, don't be boastful.
And it can be really challenging in a way that makes us dull our light and not shine as brightly as we could otherwise, because we are fearful of being told off for being bright, in a way that you don't tell off the kid who's running the fastest in the race in school on sports day. You wouldn't say, "Slow down so everyone else can catch up."
So I am very pleased that we've had that conversation today. And for anyone who recognizes that they might have high learning potential or high ability cognitively in themselves or their children, please do know that I attract women like yourselves, where we do get a very high level of the conversations when we get together.
And not just because we're all super brainy academic, but because we are seeing things that other people might not see, and it does bring extra layers and levels to the coaching when you have the ability for high learning potential. So if you've ever been that brainy kid who was worried you were gonna be told off 'cause you were correcting your teacher, welcome.
You, you will fit right in. If you want to come and meet other people like that and come along and be guided by me for a few hours, come along to my September reset.
That helps us to let go of some of the summer chaos and give ourselves some spaciousness and clarity of how you want to enter September and the autumn, on the 12th of September, and you'll get all the details in the link in the show notes. And you can also get all the details in my newsletter if you go to thethomasconnection.co.uk/newsletter.
Not free on the 12th of September? You can also come along to Golden in London on the 9th of October. So I'll be running these in-person events more and more often because I think it's really valuable to build this community of other women who are like us, where you don't have to apologize for dropping a random fact or seeing things differently, or the fact that you do Wordle for shits and giggles.
So, yeah. Thank you for listening and make sure to subscribe to not miss the next episode.
It means something to do with your mind. So being twice exceptional in more ways than one, you're being an outlier, effectively. So your, neurodivergence in terms of, say, ADHD or autism or dyslexia, is combined with also having a mind that is very bright or, has exceptional learning capabilities or high learning potential.
There are many different words for this. and twice exceptional or 2e is more commonly used in the US. So today I've brought on a guest that's gonna talk to you more about that. And Emma Hetherington, who is the founder of Kind of Extraordinary, a UK-based neurodiversity affirming practice that supports families of neurodivergent and twice exceptional children.
She's gonna come and talk to us, helping us to understand the challenges and the strengths of being twice exceptional, that it's not all bliss. It's not just blessing, it can also be really challenging. She is a, a late diagnosed ADHD herself, and mom to two twice exceptional children, and that gives her a deep firsthand understanding of the daily joys, spiky profiles, and systemic challenges that these families face.
She is a certified Autoplay, therapy provider, and holds qualifications in SEN and mental health. She has spent years working in the charity sector, specifically supporting families of gifted and 2e children before launching her own practice. She aims to help parents moving away from clinical jargon and offer practical, respectful, and strengths-based support.
So in this episode, we are basically demystifying what twice exceptionality means and how common it is that high achievers, children with high learning ability also can mask those challenges that the neurodivergence is , giving as well, and then they slip through the cracks. They use their intelligence to mask their struggles at school, and then they can have very spiky profiles.
We might also commonly see that they have higher levels of perfectionism, needing things to be just right, and putting so much pressure on themselves that they can be more likely to fall into burnout or anxiety because the pressure is just too much. So welcome to my guest, Emma.
[00:02:51] Michaela: So welcome to the podcast, Emma. It's a real joy to have you here, and I think we're gonna have a kind of extraordinary conversation today.
[00:03:00] Emma: Yeah, no, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:03:04] Michaela: And obviously, I know what I was trying to do there with the pun- Yeah ... but tell us about Kind of Extraordinary.
Where did that come from?
[00:03:12] Emma: Kind of Extraordinary came from the fact that, you know, I have 2e children. I have a lot of friends that have neurodivergent children, 2e children, and I was like, "Yeah, like, it's great, but also it's really tricky sometimes, isn't it?" And you're trying to explain that, and you're saying, like, "It's amazing, but it's kind of difficult as well."
And it's that, like, yes, they're different, but they're also kind of extraordinary. So it was more of that- Mm-hmm ... I didn't wanna be, like, toxic positivity like, "Oh, it's your superpower." Mm. I just wanted it to be like, "Yeah, there's difficulties, but there's also some really great things," and be realistic about that.
[00:03:51] Michaela: Mm. So they're kind of extraordinary- Kind of extraordinary ... but also kind of- Yeah ... kind of a little bit extra. Kind of a- Just a bit. Just a bit. And, for anyone who's new to that concept, I've touched upon it on the podcast before because I also have a, at least one, 2e child that's been- Mm-hmm
diagnosed. but for anyone who doesn't know what 2e means, can you explain a bit about what that is?
[00:04:12] Emma: Yeah. So twice exceptional, it's a term that is more global. In the UK some people will call it dual or multiple exceptional. but I use 2e just because it's more recognizable. The books, most of them say 2e.
and it's easier, you know? Yeah.but it's essentially when a child or person is cognitively more able or gifted, and ADHD, autistic, all of the above, dyslexic, dyscalculia, all of those things. It's the gifted and is how I would- Mm ... describe it to someone who didn't know what it was.
[00:04:53] Michaela: And exceptional meaning not better than, but exceptional in terms of being the, the outlier in level of-
[00:04:59] Emma: Yeah
[00:05:00] Michaela: intelligence is how I've understood that-
[00:05:01] Emma: Yeah, and it's like- ... as well ... that fundamental difference in their processing. You know, like, it's an exceptionality, you know- Mm ... rather than exceptional, which I think is sometimes- Mm ... why people have an issue with the gifted label because they- Mm ... have that, misunderstanding that you're saying, "Oh, well, they're better," you know?
Mm-hmm. And a lot of that comes from the education system. When we had a gifted and talented policy in the s- in the UK that was removed in 2010, but when we had that it was about the high achievers. Mm-hmm. So there's that misconception that giftedness means that they're high achievers and they're just amazing, rather than it being like, no, their brains are just absorbing everything at a really fast pace and, you know, it's about their nervous system as much as it is their cognitive abilities.
So it's- Mm ... that gifted and is- Mm ... really tricky sometimes.
[00:05:58] Michaela: And very much a blessing and a curse, right? Mm-hmm. In terms of how it can help as well as hinder. Can you talk a bit about that, why, why it is that those of exceptional cognitive ability- Mm-hmm ... might be struggling?
[00:06:11] Emma: Yeah. So the thing is, obviously in a typical education system, you have a child who might be meeting expectations, or they might be above expectations, but the expectations are based on a chronological age expectancy.
So a 2E child, a gifted child, they might be reading before they even start reception, and the parents might not know how they started reading. You know? They- Yeah. I remember being in a restaurant and saying to, like, my eldest, who was, like, 18 months, "Oh, are you gonna have some, like, chicken and some vegetables?"
And he was like, "Fish and chips." And pointing at the menu. And I was like, "No, no, there's no f-..." And he was like, "Fish, chips." And I was like, "Okay, right." Can't get away with that anymore, you know? Mm-hmm.so it was really difficult. So you have the high abilities that aren't always recognized sometimes because there's not the opportunity for them to be shown.
Because in reception they're expected to do phonics. So that- Yes ... child's sitting there going a, b, c, and doing all of that. But actually they've been able to read for years, but the teachers aren't asking them those questions because it's not expected. Mm. But then you also have a child that, you know, for instance, if they're 2E ADHD- Mm
those barriers, that kind of difficulty with kind of paying attention or sitting still will be focused on more. And without- Mm ... that support, then they don't have the opportunity to engage the higher ability. So it kind of happens that the high abilities can mask the barriers because-
[00:07:56] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:07:56] Emma: they're understanding.
They'll say, "Oh," like, you know, internally they're going, "Nope, sit still. We're at school now, I have to sit still. I understand that." They might even, you know, my youngest, when she was at nursery, was reading and the teacher said to me, "Oh, well, you know, she's been enjoying the reading corner." I said, "Oh, what has she been reading?"
"No, no, she's not reading. She's just looking at the books." I said, "She can read." And when I asked her- Mm ... she said, "Well, no one else can read, so I don't read at school. I don't read at nursery." Mm. So you have that difference where they're either, subconsciously masking their abilities- Yeah ... they're very consciously masking their abilities to fit in because they have that deeper understanding, or the barriers are just not supported in any way, shape, or form because their intellectual abilities are fine.
They're, you know- Mm ... meeting their levels. So then they're not really pushed to see what they're capable of, and the barriers are focused on. It's like they're hyperactive, they're not sitting still, they're talking in class, rather than this child needs more stimulation.
[00:09:06] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if that's sort of almost like the double whammy of boredom that comes in- Yeah
when they are already grasping a, an intellectual concept, as you've introduced a learning concept- Mm-hmm ... a topic that they already f- figured that out, and they have challenges with patience and waiting for if they're ADHD as well. Yeah. How, how can we see that, you know, in, in the school system? What happens to those kids if they're not stimulated enough, if they're, if they're gifted as well as ADHD?
[00:09:36] Emma: They often become a behavior problem, you know? And I say that in- Mm ... inverted commas because I don't believe that you could just focus on the behavior without understanding the root cause. But obviously- Mm ... schools currently are under-resourced. They're understaffed in a lot of instances. Teaching staff are overwhelmed because of the sheer class sizes.
Mm. So they're not able to give that one-to-one time to each child. Mm. So then that child, the focus becomes what the teacher is able to manage in that moment, which is you need to sit down. You need to sit down. Mm. And our curriculum in the UK is very mastery approached, which is torture for ADHD. But also when you add the fact that there's giftedness, they've learnt it.
[00:10:22] Michaela: Mm.
[00:10:23] Emma: They- Mm. They, they heard it once. They're like, "Yep, got it. Locked in." They might not understand- Yeah ... everything about it, but they've understood that that word says cat. They understand that even- Mm ... that says cattle or catastrophe. Mm. It, they understand all of that. But . Then they're, in their minds, they're saying, "Why do I need to show it again?" Of, of show- Yeah
and then it becomes defiance 'cause they're like, they're not doing the work. And you're like, because in their minds they've already done it.
[00:10:55] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:55] Emma: You know, why do they need- Yeah ... to keep showing you that they can do it? It's already done. Mm. So then it becomes this pushback. But also, an big issue you have in a lot of 2E kids is perfectionism, and I know obviously that's something that's totally your wheelhouse.
But- Mm ... you know, if you have a child who cannot remember when they learned to read, they couldn't remember when they knew their times tables, they don't remember those small increments. They just go, "Well, you read it." 'Cause they were so young. Mm. Yeah. So they don't necessarily understand that learning is this gradual process.
So then when they're confronted with something they don't understand, almost instantly it like- Mm ... threatens their nervous system, and they just either shut down or, you know, if it's coloring in when they're really little, that bit of paper will get scrunched up, thrown away, they're never coloring in again.
Yeah. Because no, it's not gonna look like that. You might have a child that starts writing quite early, then they gain the understanding of what it should look like- Mm ... and then they go, "No, it's not gonna be perfect," or, "Now we're doing joined up writing. I don't know how to do that-" Mm ... "so I'm not gonna do it."
And then that looks like that child isn't doing the work at all, and sometimes that's mistaken- Yeah ... as they're not capable of doing the work. Mm. Whereas you've got this child at home possibly who's like talking about black holes and spaghettification and whatever, and in school they're like doing the bare minimum of work, and it's taking a lot of effort for the teachers to even get them- Mm
to do that bare minimum.
[00:12:38] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:12:38] Emma: And you have this complete mismatch because they're so aware of the expectations.
[00:12:44] Michaela: Mm.
[00:12:45] Emma: So it's really difficult. It's not an easy thing for teachers or for parents, but I think parents live with the reality of- Mm ... their 2E child, whereas schools, some schools don't even know 2E exists- No, they don't
and that's really difficult.
[00:13:04] Michaela: Yeah. I had to educate, educate the s- the lower school that my son has been going through. Mm-hmm. And once they've understood- they've been much more curious about how can we facilitate learning and not just the academic side of things, but mental health.
[00:13:17] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:18] Michaela: How can we, like how can we ensure that this child is emotionally well?
And I wonder, that's something I wanna dig more into of when you have such asynchronous development- Yeah ... like maybe being really strong and extraordinary in some areas- Mm-hmm ... and really behind in others, what we, what do we tend to see in the kind of the profiles of learning or skills in 2E kids?
[00:13:38] Emma: I think, like sometimes there's this expectation that their strengths will be across the board and their barriers will be across the board.
But the really difficult thing with 2E children is it's even more interest-led than just simply like an ADHD child. You know- Mm ... it's, you, there's no amount of support. If that kid's not interested in it, they're not doing it, you know? Yeah. And really trying to get that through that that's not defiance, but it's just not giving them any reward, and it's not giving them- Yeah
that value. It's not interesting to them. And, you know, it's that internal battle. Some children will know, "I need to do this. I'm gonna get in trouble." Mm. But they still can't push themselves to do it because they don't know- Mm ... how to start that. So what you often have is you might have kids that there might be a misdiagnosis.
They might think that that child's dyslexic, or you might have a child, because they refuse to read, I mean. But- Mm ... if you have a ch- you might have a dyslexic 2E child, and then they're trying to support the dyslexia, but all the support is in place for someone who has average or below average cognitive abilities.
Mm. So then that child will disengage with the supports because it's not suitable for their ability level. So it's really difficult to mismatch, to match the support with- Mm ... that asynchronous profile. And- Yeah ... y- you know, parents are having to, as you said you did, you have to educate, and that's really hard to be that parent that's like, "Hi,Yeah
I just need to tell you something." No, I'm not a teacher. No, I'm not like- Yeah ... a psychologist, or I don't have qualification in childhood development. I'm just the parent, and this is what- Yeah ... my kid can do. And they, it's that, "Yeah, yeah, everyone's child's bright," and then mm, you know?
[00:15:36] Michaela: No, no. And it's- And, and you know what?
I am that clinical psychologist. Yeah. And I can, at this-who also does ADHD and- Mm-hmm ... you know, neuro div- divergence support, you know, assessment, diagnosis, coaching, therapy, and I am 2E myself.
[00:15:55] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:55] Michaela: And yet it was really difficult, and if I- Yeah ... struggled with that, it's, it's because one thing I really noticed, and I wanted to see what, what your experience has been about this as well- Mm-hmm
that when you go in to try to educate, it is really hard to do so without it looking like you're, coming across as superior. Yeah.
[00:16:13] Emma: Right? You know, arrogant. Or that you're trying to make excuses.
[00:16:15] Michaela: Yes. Yes. So let's stay for this. There's two different things. Mm-hmm. One is, like, almost, like, over-believing in your child.
Mm-hmm. And you said, "Well, everyone can be bright." Actually, when you know that there's another level of brightness in your child- Yeah ... that's one thing. And the other one is letting them get away with stuff. Mm-hmm. So if you stay with that first one- Okay ... have, have you had experiences of that in the work that you do?
[00:16:35] Emma: yes. Yeah. And it's sometimes I speak to parents, and then they're t- saying that, "This is what the school was saying, and this is what..." And you go, "Well, yeah, but that's because of the way their brain's wired. This is happening here." And th- and they, they just... Sometimes I've had parents just, like, break down.
They say like, "You're the first person that's actually listened to me- Mm-hmm ... and validated that- Yeah ... because I feel like I'm going crazy." An analogy I use- Mm ... quite often with families is it's like you go in and say that you live with a unicorn, and they look at you and- Yes ... go, "No, that's a donkey." And you're like, "No- Mm
it's a unicorn. Can you not see?" And they're like, "What?" You know? And I think parents worry about what they can ask for, but they also worry about looking like that parent, you know? Mm-hmm. "I don't wanna be that parent that's at the school again." But I think it's about parents of 2E children understanding that if their child wasn't being given water at school- Mm
and their child was coming out thirsty, you would be saying, "Can, can you make sure they've got some water? They're saying they're thirsty- Mm ... every single day." And school would go, "Oh, yeah. Okay. We'll make sure. Mm. We'll remind them," and things like that. But it seems to be very different when it comes to asking for intellectual stimuli- stimulation- Mm.
Mm-hmm ... because the, then it's that thing of, "Well, I'm the teacher. Why are you telling me how to do my job?" Depending on how it's approached. Mm-hmm. But it's also that thing of- parents not feeling like they're allowed to ask those questions sometimes. I think- Yeah ... you know, depending on the school, some schools are quite, you know, you speak to the school receptionist.
You might not see the class teacher. You definitely won't see the head teacher in some schools. Mm. Like, the school we're at- Mm ... is amazing and it, but it was our fourth primary school, you know? Mm-hmm. And but you can pull any teacher aside and say, "Oh, just quickly, just to let you know, this is what's been going on," or, you know- Yeah
they'll say, "Oh, this was happening this afternoon. We've spoken about this," and da, da, da. But you need that collaboration. If you don't have that collaboration- You do ... you just feel like y- you then start to disengage 'cause you think- Mm ... "Ugh, don't wanna have that conversation again. They're just gonna-
[00:18:54] Michaela: Mm
[00:18:54] Emma: say they'll do these things. It's, nothing's gonna happen. I'm gonna look crazy." And, you know, so it's you feeling like, "Right. Come on, suit of armor on. Let's get ready." Mm-hmm. But actually, when you have the right education setting, it's more a, "I'm gonna go and have a chat. We're gonna have a nice conversation.
We're gonna work out a way forward. And if that doesn't work out, we're gonna try something else," you know? Yeah, yeah. But you need to have that mutual understanding and respect first.Mm ... but I think it is parents believing that they can go- Mm ... "Hi, I know you hear this a lot probably, but- Mm ... you know, this is what we're seeing.
Mm. Have you seen that at school?" Like, you know, things like- Yeah ... we're noticing they're much more regulated when they're reading their space encyclopedia or when they've had a lot of, like enriching activities. Is that something you notice at school? Yeah. Because then you're not saying, "This is what my child needs."
You're saying, "We've noticed. How does your experience match up to that?"
[00:20:00] Michaela: Mm.
[00:20:01] Emma: And it's giving their school the opportunity- So it's a lot less
[00:20:04] Michaela: antagonizing.
[00:20:04] Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Rather than going in with a to-do list, you know- Mm ... it's like the gentle parenting of, "I appreciate, you know, you're doing this," and they've sp- they love this, this, and this, "but-
[00:20:15] Michaela: Mm
[00:20:15] Emma: you know, what could be the way forward?"
[00:20:19] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:20:19] Emma: yeah '
[00:20:20] Michaela: Cause that's one of the things you do. obviously not directly speaking with schools- Mm-hmm ... but helping people to prepare for that advocacy.
[00:20:26] Emma: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Michaela: almost like having a, a list of what, what, I know you have a, a cheat sheet on your website that- Yeah
you can download to, to help you structure. Because if you are a parent of a 2E kid, you know, might als- might be that you are neurodivergent as well and you might- Mm-hmm ... find it really difficult to concentrate and to be concise enough to do this in the, what, seven minutes you might get- Yeah ... in a parent-teacher evening.
So it's really hard. Yeah. I found that we, it's been really diff- very difficult with certain teachers where they've seen- Mm ... us talking about needing more stimulation as either us being arrogant or, us being, pushy parents that want- Mm-hmm ... him to achieve more than he's capable of. Yeah. And I frankly could not give a toss about which times table he can do-
[00:21:08] Emma: Yeah
[00:21:08] Michaela: 'cause he can do them all. And- Yeah ...
[00:21:10] Emma: Yeah, you're like, "Do you know what? I'd really love- And that's not, and I'm no pressure dude ... to not have times tables, at me before 7:00 AM. That would be great. Why would I do this- Yeah ... to myself?" You know, I would love to stick- Exactly ... on Bluey for four hours and that would be great, but no.
Like, not four hours, that's excessive. But, you know, I think- Yes ... there's that misunderstanding as well that if a child is reading early, it's because a parent has been there with flashcards.
[00:21:32] Michaela: Yes.
[00:21:32] Emma: You know? And they've been drilling it into them. Workbooks. Yeah. And you just think- Yeah ... no, like my kids would do it during the summer holidays or half term or whatever.
They get about two days in and then they're like, "C- can, have we got anything we can do?" Like, "Can I go on- Mm ... Scratch coding? Can I do some maths? Can I..." Mm. You know, and you're just like-
[00:21:51] Michaela: Mm ... "It's
[00:21:52] Emma: two days in. Like, have a bit of time off." Mm. You know? Yeah. But it's that... And that's what I mean, it's understanding that it's a need.
Intellectual- Mm ... stimulation for them is a need, as much as any sensory adapt- Yes ... adaptations. And when you start- Yeah ... viewing it like that, it's a bit more... I think schools can be a bit more open to it, but also I think parents are like, "Okay, right. No, they're not trying to just like-" annoy me. They're not trying to kind of test me.
They're not doing any of that. They're just like, "Here's this thing, and did you know, and did you know, and this dinosaur was this size" Yeah "... and they're the..." You know, and it's just, and you're just standing - Yeah ... there like, "Uh-huh?"
[00:22:33] Michaela: So the, so the info dumping can be quite intense, can't it? Yeah. When- It
[00:22:37] Emma: can
[00:22:37] Michaela: but it's also a way I've seen my child relate and connect- Mm-hmm ... to others by doing that. And again, you know, what is the sort of social struggles and what is the gift in this? But if you then don't know how to start conversation, a "Did you know?" Mm-hmm ... he always pulls out a did you know and a random fact comes out.
Yeah. Because he retains facts like there is no tomorrow, and I guess my background of having been a clinical psychologist and also briefly did the, intelligence testing for Mensa Sweden- Oh, okay ... I knew what I was looking at.
[00:23:05] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:05] Michaela: But it's really difficult still to come in and be like, "I think my child is gifted" And it was only when we had the cognitive assessment to say, he's got an IQ of 146- Yeah
or whatever it was, oh, okay, so he does need a little bit more stimulation. And then the school has changed and met- Mm-hmm ... him very differently and having him, giving him extra extensions and stuff. Mm-hmm. Coming back to the perfectionism bit, though- Yes ... I think that's really fascinating, that when he was given, on the odd occasion he was given an extension he couldn't do-
[00:23:34] Emma: Mm-hmm
[00:23:34] Michaela: magically, that extension task would just end up in the bin, the teacher- Yeah ... would say. He would just like, "Oh, I wonder what happened. Did you not finish that?" "No. No" No ... and it just would've disappeared because the, the fear of failure-
[00:23:45] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:23:46] Michaela: is so strong. 'Cause, yeah. Can you talk a bit more about what happens for, for a child who has been told that they're so smart and then they fail?
[00:23:53] Emma: Yeah. Well, and I think that actually is a really important distinction to make.- telling your child, okay, it's not about hiding it from them, but saying, "You're so smart" becomes like a stick- Mm-hmm ... that they beat themselves with. You know? It becomes that bar, and then you get the shoulds. But I'm so smart, so I should be able to do this, whereas actually, if you shift the way you're talking and you're like, "You look like you're enjoying that" or- Mm
"You were doing that for five minutes yesterday, and today you were able to do it for 10 minutes, what's changed?" Like, building that resilience, but shifting the focus to being about the process and their progress rather than outcome, you know? Mm. Like, of course, sometimes you'll say, "Oh, you got 10 out of 10, well done" But actually- Mm
do, then when they get nine out of 10, their minds might go, "Well, then that's not good enough because mom said that-" Mm-hmm "... well done when I got 10 out of 10." 'Cause they don't trust the praise because inside they think, "That, that took no effort." You know? So- Mm ... they don't necessarily associate effort with outcome, so then when- Mm
they come across something That they're unfamiliar with, like you say, the extension tasks. It's like, 'cause they don't have to put in any effort- Mm-hmm ... to be the top of the class a lot of the time. You know, a 2E child- Mm ... or a gifted child, they might get through to GCSEs without ever trying really.
[00:25:23] Michaela: Yes, that's what I did.
[00:25:24] Emma: S- same here, right? My GCSE revision- Yeah ... I watched Charmed, you know? Yeah. I did not revise. Yeah. And then you find, like, the wheels come off at A level when it's a lot more- Mm-hmm ... about y- you managing your own schedule, your own workload. Y- there's much more... It's less of a routine. It's less this is what you need to know to pass the exam-
[00:25:46] Michaela: Mm.
Mm ...
[00:25:47] Emma: which is very easy to remember because, as you say, you just remember the facts. You can skim read. You're like, "Got it. It's fine. Got the gist."
[00:25:56] Michaela: Yeah. "
[00:25:56] Emma: That's enough." And you can kind of blag the rest of it.
[00:26:00] Michaela: Mm.
[00:26:01] Emma: but then when A levels or some, in some cases university comes and you've got the, for ADHD 2E, you have the executive function, like, just barreling on top of you, then- Mm-hmm
that's where some people really, they struggle, and then it's like, "Well, I'm not, I'm not clever. I'm not smart."
[00:26:20] Michaela: Yeah. "
[00:26:21] Emma: I should be able to do this," and that's when you see a lot of impact on the mental health and the low self-esteem. And in some- really, you know, there's a lot of self-harm and things- Mm ... like that, and suicidal ideation, which-
[00:26:35] Michaela: Yeah
[00:26:35] Emma: is purely 'cause they don't have the language and the understanding, but they also- Mm ... haven't had the support because- Mm ... there's not that built into the curriculum because it's so British. Like, don't be good at anything. Everyone's the same. Mm. You know? Yes. No one's better than anyone, and you're like, but it's not about being- We all get a
[00:26:51] Michaela: medal.
[00:26:52] Emma: Yeah. It's not about it being better. It's about it- Mm-hmm ... being different. You know, that processing speed in some instances, you know- Mm ... the recall, that, like, ability to memorize things, it's instinctual for a lot of these kids. Mm. They don't know- Yeah ... how they learn it because, you know, it's like show your working out, and they're like, "That's the answer."
[00:27:15] Michaela: Yeah
[00:27:16] Emma: And they sacrifice
[00:27:17] Michaela: the point- Yeah, I'm glad you, I'm glad you're bringing that up. I'm glad you're bringing that up because it's the showing your workings out- Yeah ... is something that can be really difficult for- Mm ... a lot of the, the parents I've supported. They're talking about how the kids get into trouble for that because they don't want to do that.
That's boring. Mm-hmm. And you just know the answer. And again- Mm-hmm ... like I said, you're losing the ... You're getting marked down because you're not showing your workings through. Yeah. What can we say to those children, you know? Is there any way to help them manage that?
[00:27:43] Emma: Yeah. So one thing that I recommend, or one thing that I've done with my own children is doing the, "I don't understand it.
Could you teach me?" Or, "Could you teach your toy?" Mm. And things like that, because, like, they want to help, you know? Like, they want to succeed. It's that Ross Green thing of every child wants to succeed, you know? Mm-hmm. It's not that thing of they're just like, "No, I can't be bothered." But getting them to slow down, to be able to- Mm-hmm
teach you rather than prove something, you know? Mm-hmm. You're not asking them to prove that they know it. You're saying- Mm ... "I don't understand it. Could you teach me? I would really like to understand this." Like- Yeah ... "Could you teach your toy?" And things like that. And that helps them slow down, and that helps them identify the steps that their brain just got to so quickly- Mm, yeah
without them understanding. And there was probably music on in the background, and they were probably eating a snack at the same time and, you know, listening- Mm ... to a conversation they shouldn't have been listening to, that you thought, "Oh, I'll have that conversation whilst they're doing their homework and having a snack," you know?
[00:28:47] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:47] Emma: You can't get away with anything.
[00:28:49] Michaela: Little, little sponges. Yeah. Yeah Little sponges, who are very selective hearing when it's about doing something that I don't wanna do.
[00:28:56] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:56] Michaela: so it's really fascinating, that, that concept of not having the awareness of how you learn because- Mm-hmm ... you've just absorbed it.
And I guess that comes into sort of A levels and university, when you really have to use study technique- Oh ... and you really have to use critical thinking Yeah, like, oh,
[00:29:11] Emma: revise for your exams. And people are like, all right. What is that?" Oh. "Do I just reread the stuff- Yeah ... that I've been given?" You know, so they don't- Yeah
they need to learn to learn, and they need that- Yeah ... resilience. They need to know the, "I don't know it yet." You know? And that's really hard when you then also have like for instance the ADHD kind of impulsivity, "Ah, that's boring, I don't wanna do it anymore. Five minutes tops" - Mm-hmm ... sort of thing. And you know, you're having to find all these different ways to hook them into learning.
And it might work- Hmm ... one day and not the next day. Hmm. You might have a child- Mm-hmm ... that's like, "But I hate the feel of the paper on my hand." Mm. "And my hand hurts when I'm holding a pen, so I can't write for a long time." Mm. And things like that. Yeah. But they might not even know how to verbalize that.
[00:30:04] Michaela: Hmm.
[00:30:04] Emma: They might just be like, "I don't like writing." But actually- Yes, I don't want to ... if you said, yeah, if you said, "Tell me a story," they would be able to tell you- Hmm ... the most amazing story. But then if you said, "Write it down," they wouldn't.
[00:30:17] Michaela: Hmm. No. And- I think it's again that formatting, format of how we process information- Yeah
and how we can relay information.
[00:30:24] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:24] Michaela: so you, you talked about sort of that sense of how that can look like defiance. Mm-hmm. Like, "I don't want to." So it's not, you know, it's not don't want to, it's, it's can't in a lot of cases. Yeah.
you referenced Ross Green as well.
Mm-hmm. And for those who don't know his work, he does a lot of work around the explosive child.
[00:30:40] Emma: Yeah.
[00:30:41] Michaela: And in your experience, do we see that more in 2E children, that they have in- more intensity emotionally?
[00:30:47] Emma: Yeah. The intense emotions, because if you think they understand things generally speaking on a much deeper level than their age- Hmm
allows them the context, you know? Hmm. So they might understand some things, like going back to like the black holes and - spaghettification. I worked with a family once where their, I think she was eight, and she had developed this fear of a spare room that- Hmm ... had lots of stuff just in it. Like you know you have- Hmm
the dumping room. They had a lot of stuff in there. Yes. And they were like, "Oh, well just chuck it in there." And she had developed this fear that basically that room was gonna implode, because it was gonna- Hmm ... like kind of be too full and it was gonna implode. And-
[00:31:36] Michaela: Hmm ...
[00:31:37] Emma: but she was eight, so you couldn't- Hmm
she couldn't rationalize what she knew about like deep space and physics- Hmm ... with it's okay, that room isn't gonna implode. Like- Hmm ... we're all safe. It's just- Hmm ... that room just needs to be tidied up. So it's- Hmm ... that kind of- academic understanding, and then the difference of the fact that no matter what academic emotional intelligence levels they have, if they're five, they're five.
Mm-hmm. You know, their life experience- Yeah ... only allows them to contextualize things. You know, they've not fallen in love and had their heart broken. They've not really, in a lot of cases, known loss and things like that. Mm. But they un- they'll be able to read Shakespeare.
[00:32:24] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:26] Emma: You know,
[00:32:26] Michaela: so that's- Different emotional maturity, right?
Exactly. And that's what this, what you said about the, the uneven profile of development- Mm-hmm ... that they can do certain things, but then you realize that actually they're really little, and we need to allow- Yeah ... them to be little. especially if any of them have, you know, like we're talking about ADHD or autism alongside- Yeah
that they might have a 30% developmental delay-
[00:32:44] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:32:45] Michaela: in some areas, and speak like they're five years older than their chronological age. Yeah. And that's, that's really confusing, right, of, of the parental- It is ... expectations.
[00:32:53] Emma: Well, and I think that's the thing, it is these expectations. And one thing I have to remind families sometimes is, yes, okay, I know that you, you've just been talking about like- A-level maths with your seven-year-old- Mm-hmm
and, like- Mm-hmm ... all of this, but then they've kicked off that you peeled their banana and they didn't want you to peel- Mm-hmm ... the banana. But you have- Yeah, yeah ... to understand that just because they're eloquent or articulate, in some cases, again, it's not all 2E children, but- Mm ... just because they're having those conversations with you doesn't change the fact that they're seven and have an executive- Mm
f- function barrier which puts them 30%. So, you know, like, it's almost like you have to accept the strengths, scaffold the barriers, and not say, you know, it's that thing of, "Of course you can listen to that science podcast whilst- Mm ... I am tying your shoes, even though all your- Mm-hmm ... classmates can tie their shoes."
Yeah. You do that because actually is it important right now to focus- Mm ... on that battle of you need- Mm ... to tie your shoes 'cause everyone else can tie their shoes, or could you just get some Velcro?
[00:34:01] Michaela: Yeah, yeah. You know, l- choosing your battles of, of where you can support that development- Mm-hmm ... because not everyone can do the thing that they're doing with the times tables or, Yeah
deep space knowledge. so everyone learns different things, different speed. I know my son has struggled with tying shoes, learning to ride a bike. Those kind of more procedural- Mm-hmm ... p- performance things have been difficult. Gross motors, fine motor skills w- were hard, but he's, you know- Mm-hmm ... the cog wheels are always turning.
And I guess that you've, you've, you mentioned that earlier of how much of a challenge it can be for parents.
[00:34:32] Emma: Yeah.
[00:34:32] Michaela: Partly because of the, I guess, the thirst, you know, or the thirst- Mm ... for knowledge, inquisitive nature means that they don't stop talking. Like, why? Yeah. But why? But why? And then this and then that.
Yeah. So again, a lot of the parents I see are then f- feeling bad about that, like, oh, I'm not- Mm-hmm ... patient enough, and self-criticism around how they, when they get annoyed. So I guess it's that balancing act of how we support and-
[00:34:57] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:34:58] Michaela: help them flourish- Mm-hmm ... but also set some boundaries when, like, we've had enough of the info dumping.
What, what are your- Yeah ... thoughts around that really difficult challenge?
[00:35:06] Emma: So we talk a lot about wants and needs in our family, you know? Mm. So when it's like, "Mummy, mummy, mummy," and I, I'll be like, "Yep." You know, in the middle of cooking d- tea. And the, "Ah, blah, blah, blah" And I'm like, "Right, is this a want or a need?
Is this something I n- need to know right now, or is it something you want to tell me?" And they'll go, Mm ... "Oh, well, it's, you know..." And I'm s- ... So I need to cook food because we need to eat. I'm gonna set a timer, and we have visual timers everywhere in this house. Mm-hmm. But I'm gonna set a timer. The part of cooking that I'm doing is gonna take five minutes.
When that timer goes off, I'm gonna listen to what you want to tell me. But right now, I need to do this, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's that kind of building in that understanding that I want to hear what you have to say. Mm-hmm. Not, I haven't got time. Mm-hmm. Just I want to hear, but this is important, so we need- Mm-hmm
to kind of work that out. Because often- Mm-hmm ... the 2E kids will be s- in school, it's you've answered, you've put your hands up a lot, s- give someone else- Mm ... a turn to talk. Mm-hmm,
[00:36:16] Michaela: mm.
[00:36:16] Emma: And sometimes that turns into that kid not putting their hand up any because they think, "The teacher's not interested in what I have to say."
[00:36:23] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:36:23] Emma: You know? And they disengage. So it is that validation of I wanna hear what you have to say, even though you've probably- Mm ... been told it 50,000 times before. But, you know- Yeah ... I wanna hear that. That's important. You want to share that with me, but I need to do this. Could you please give me the time to do that?
[00:36:42] Michaela: Mm.
[00:36:43] Emma: And then we can, you know, and it helps you as well because, as you said, if you've got a 2E child, you're most likely 2E or neurodivergent yourself. Helps you stay on task, you know? You're not going- Yeah ... 'cause you, you've got that visual timer as well, and you're like, "Right, no, I've s- promised them that I'll do this."
Mm. But I think it's parents understanding that it's actually okay to put that boundary in, and it's actually- Mm ... okay if you're having a cup of tea and you're like, "Do you know what? I need five minutes to myself. I'm feeling overwhelmed right now."
[00:37:14] Michaela: Mm. "
[00:37:15] Emma: I need to reset." I'm gonna set a timer wh- you can ask me whatever questions you want after that timer, but right now I just need quiet.
[00:37:26] Michaela: Mm.
[00:37:26] Emma: You know? Mm. And that modeling is also helpful.
[00:37:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:37:31] Emma: Because then it gives them the skills to say, "I'm struggling right now. I don't wanna have this conversation."
[00:37:40] Michaela: Mm.
[00:37:40] Emma: You know? Yeah. And I think that's one of the most important things we can do. You know, when they're really little, you're like, "Shall we go to the park?
Can you see the swings? Yes, the swings go forwards and backwards. You go down the slide." And you do all of that to help with their language development. But then when they get older, we almost forget that they're still watching us. Mm. They're still engaged with everything we're saying. So if when we make a mistake, they hear us go, "Oh, I'm so stupid, I can't believe I did that.
All I had to do- Mm ... was this simple thing, blah, blah, blah." They think that's how you talk to yourself- Mm ... when you make a mistake. And for a kind of population of children that struggle with perfectionism, it's really difficult. But you do have to kind of go, "Right, went to the shop to get spaghetti. Didn't get spaghetti.
That's frustrating." "I can't believe I got distracted. I saw this, I saw that. It's the one thing I didn't get." Now, the answer isn't you going back to the shop and buying the spaghetti. The answer is you- Mm ... going, "Okay. Well, we've got some rice in the cupboard. We've got some potatoes." Mm-hmm. "We've got that random bag of polenta we bought after watching a cookery show.
Like, we've got that stuff." Mm. "We're gonna change." So then they're seeing you model, like, the problem-solving. They're not seeing you- Yeah ... go, "I'm such an idiot, I've got to go back to the shop now." Mm. That's not good enough. You know, thinking of that scrunching up the paper, I'm gonna start again because I went over the lines.
Mm-hmm. It's that thing of- Mm ... okay, Mommy made a mistake. Oh, she was annoyed with herself, but she told herself everyone makes mistakes, and then she found an answer. You know? Yeah. It's, it's, it's so hard to catch yourself in that- Mm ... sometimes, but it really is helpful
[00:39:27] Michaela: And there's some really good programs on TV now, 'cause, about having a lot more awareness of the growth mindset.
Like you said, "I can't do this yet."
[00:39:34] Emma: Yeah. "
[00:39:35] Michaela: I don't know the answer yet. I'm still learning." So there are some things like, ... I find Gabby's Dollhouse is quite good for that. Mm-hmm. Obviously Bluey is everyone's favorite.
[00:39:43] Emma: Oh, yeah. That's
[00:39:43] Michaela: good. But I know my, my little girl, she when, when she's, made a mistake she just goes, "Whoopsie," because I, I really, really try to make myself say, "Whoopsie."
Mm-hmm. because I've had more capacity with my second child than I've had with my first. Yeah. He, he had more challenges when he was little, so I was more deprived of, like, sleep, et cetera. Mm-hmm. So with her I've really tried to be like, "Whoopsie." and when she then makes a mistake she says, "I made a mistake.
It's okay. It's okay." sometimes, "It's okay, it's okay," because she's frustrated. But she still says it out loud, like, "I made
[00:40:13] Emma: a mistake.
[00:40:14] Michaela: It's okay, it's okay." Because that's ... or we just go like, "Whoopsie." Or if I would do what you just gave example of, like the getting distracted or forgetfulness- Yeah ... I would just be like, "Ooh, squirrel."
Yeah. we got sidetracked by something. Squirrel. Yeah ... and it's, it's just a way to, for s- to have the acceptance that- Mm-hmm ... this is going to happen. We're going to do these things 'cause of executive- Yeah ... dysfunction, and how can we bring it back to what you gave example of there, flexibility. What else can we cook with?
Mm-hmm. And it's not the end of the world. That can loosen some of the perfectionism because it's not the end of the world if you didn't get the spaghetti.
[00:40:51] Emma: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Michaela: What is actually gonna, you know, combust into fire if you don't cook spaghetti? I mean, obviously that, if you have an autistic child-
[00:40:58] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:40:58] Michaela: there might be more- Yeah
spontaneous combustion because there's change to the- Mm-hmm ... promise or broken promise- Mm-hmm ... or change to what they're expecting. but I was gonna ask as well about the living with the intensity there.
[00:41:11] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:12] Michaela: Do you find that these children hold it together more in school, and they're released more afterwards?
Or do we see bigger restraint collapses?
[00:41:22] Emma: It depends on the child obviously. One 2E child will be completely different to another. But in general, because a lot of them are high masking, or at least they understand the expectations within the school environment-
[00:41:37] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:37] Emma: the, they'll be the model pupil. "Oh, they-" Mm-hmm
"they were perfect." And, you know, they might come out and like- headbutt you straight away.
[00:41:46] Michaela: Mm.
[00:41:46] Emma: You know? Or it might be that you're then in the car on the way home and, "Oh, how was your day?" "Don't talk to me." And you're like, "Okay." You know? Thank you. Because- Yeah ... yeah. It's that thing of you're their safe place, and you're like, "Goody.
Great. Really looking forward-" Yes ... "to this." particularly on a day that you think, "Oh, wow, that's a really full day." That's a lot of- Mm ... kind of internal working because I think sometimes some kids, you, they'll be s- oh, well, they go to naught to 60. And you're like, no, no, they actually went from 58 to 60, but- Mm
zero to 58 was internal. You know? Mm-hmm. They were... You know, it's those small things like are they fiddling with their hair- Mm-hmm ... because they know they have to sit still? Are they doodling in the margins because they know they have to sit still? Does it look like they're daydreaming, but if you ask them the question, they're like, "Oh, yeah, look," because they just find that kind of focus really uncomfortable You know, what is it?
And it, that's, but so yeah, the restraint collapse is a massive thing. But- Mm ... you know, it's often because as well you think they, they're not having their intellectual needs met either. Mm. It's that constant thing of, right, when I get home I'll be able to do this. When I get, I'll be able to do that, and, but that's boring, but it's fine.
I'm not allowed to shout out. I'm not allowed to tell the teacher that it's boring. I'm not allowed to go, "Ugh," when they ask me to do something- ... because then I'll get told off for being rude, you know? Mm. Don't talk too much even though you've finished your work in, like, a fraction of the time- Mm ... that was provided.
Yeah. Or even you weren't that interested, so you just wrote the bare minimum and you're like, "I've answered the question. I've done it."
[00:43:35] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:35] Emma: You know? Yeah. But the teacher wanted a whole paragraph, and they're like, "Why? I've given you... I've answered the question." Yeah. "Tell me where I haven't answered the question," sort of thing.
[00:43:42] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:43] Emma: Like, you know, it's work smarter, not harder very much. And, like, a two-year child is exceptional at finding the loophole.
[00:43:50] Michaela: Yes, yes. We, we actually call our son, Loople and then his name because he is- ... he is excellent at it, and he... I- this is a bit that is sort of kind of extraordinary that you're proud of- Yeah
that is also really funny at times, and equally frustrating. Mm-hmm. But he, he at once, drew out a flow chart, a algorithm flow chart of how I ruined his childhood. Oh, stop ... like arrows by arrows. And I, I saved this. I, I looked at it and I'm like, "I'm offended," and, like, so, so- Yeah ... amused in equal measure.
'Cause he'd written- Yeah ... like, sort of arrows of when I say no to him, like set a boundary, like, "You need to go to bed." Mm-hmm. "It's time to go bed," et cetera. Set to say, "No, no, no, no." So he'd written a, drawn a picture, a stick figure of me saying, "No, no, no" to him, and him then, carrying on to say, "No, no, no" to his children and that would be, like, so basically writing our generational trauma.
Wow. and then what would happen if he, the another flow, like arrow- Yeah ... down if I would've said yes to things, and then he could've seen for himself that actually doesn't feel very well if he stays up too late, and then he can say- Mm-hmm ... another arrow, tell his mates that, "No, I can't stay up late 'cause it's not good for me."
Mm-hmm. And so that's why he stated a, an argument for why I should say- Oh ... yes to him staying up later in that moment. You're like, "Do you wonder why bedtime takes a while?" Yeah, yeah, when it's- If you will, let me present- Yeah ... evidence A, like, this is my exhibit A. Yeah. and we often have to sit down and be like-where we talked about how much sugar he could eat.
I was like- Mm-hmm ... we're gonna have a sugar strategy meeting. State your terms." And we negotiated.
[00:45:23] Emma: Yeah, and that's the thing.
[00:45:23] Michaela: Don't think that's, that's typical.
[00:45:25] Emma: No, but I do think it's very key that, like a gifted brain and a 2E brain, they need the why. They do. It's not that thing of, "Okay, it's time to do this."
"Well, hang on. Why? Why do I need to do that now? Why do I have to do it in that way?" Because they're constantly- Mm ... going, "Ooh, but I could do it this way and I could do it that way. Oh, what about that? And what about that? And what about that?" And that, whilst they're doing all of that, they're not doing anything.
[00:45:49] Michaela: No.
[00:45:49] Emma: They're just sitting there. But internally, it's like, "Ooh, I could do it that way and that I, and I could like develop a like I... Ooh, that could be color-coded, and then that would link to that, and then that would link to that, and that..." But actually, all you're seeing is a kid who might just go, "Oh, I don't know"
[00:46:04] Michaela: Yeah, yeah And- The optimization- Yeah
is so paralyzing. And I see that in, in the adults, ADHD women- Yeah ... who are very bright that I see that, the sort of silent optimization of-
[00:46:13] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[00:46:13] Michaela: what is the best order to do something or best- Yeah ... format to do something, and you end up doing nothing.
[00:46:18] Emma: But actually- 'Cause you can't choose ... getting their buy-in, it adds the reward, it adds the
'Cause the reward charts aren't gonna work. Like, if there's any parent to a 2E child out there still using a reward chart, chuck it in the bin. It's not doing anything for your child. They, they're like- No ... "I don't care about a sticker. Like, what's the value- No ... of that sticker? I just won't have a sticker today."
Mm. You know? But- Mm ... if it's that thing of, you know, if you've got a 2E child that struggles with motivation for handwriting- Mm ... not the actual physicality, 'cause they might be dyspraxic or dysgraphic, and, but the actual motivation. If you say to them, "Could you help me write the shopping list? But, and I tell you what, because you're helping me, any three things that you put on that list I have to buy."
[00:47:05] Michaela: Ooh. "
[00:47:05] Emma: You have to write down the things I'm asking you, but if you also add three of your own things in there as a surprise, when I go to the shop, I'll have to buy them 'cause they're on the list." You know, like-
[00:47:17] Michaela: Ooh, challenge accepted. My son would go to town on that.
[00:47:19] Emma: Exactly, which is why I say put three things- Like, what is the biggest bag of
[00:47:21] Michaela: crisps you can sell?
[00:47:23] Emma: three things. Set a limit or else it- Yeah ... will just be ... But, you know- Yeah ... it's finding that hook, finding that buy-in. But, you know, I, we had a, where it was just the transition of leaving the house in the morning. I was like- Mm ... "Look, kids, I'm asking you multiple times, put on your shoes. Like, it's time to go."
Mm. "You understand what time we leave," things like that. But then when it comes to it, it, you're like, "Oh, I don't want to." And I said, "Look, this isn't nice for anyone. We don't, I don't feel like you're listening. You're getting annoyed that I keep asking you. What would work?" Mm. And, like, the, they come up with
Sometimes you get the, "I don't know." Mm. But my kids came up with, "Oh, maybe you tell us that the playroom floor is lava." Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay. We, we can try that." And it works. I don't use it every day, but when there's those days where I'm like, "Right, this isn't happening. They're not listening," I'm like, "Playroom floor is lava."
And they go, "Oh, quick, get the stuff." And then they'll be, like, in the porch ready to go because- Mm ... you know, that that was something that they came up with. So having- Mm ... that family meeting and saying, "Right, okay, what are your terms? How much sugar do you think is fair?" You know? Yeah. Like, parents have it a lot with things like gaming or, you know, crafting or just any transition, you know?
Yeah. And saying, "Okay, what do you think is fair in this?" Mm. "What would be..." And th- you going, "Okay, that, I, I see that. Now, my concern as your parent is, you know- Mm ... in your instance, I'm gonna have to have a conversation about the, with the dentist about- Mm ... why your teeth-"you know, why you need fill-ins or anything like that, if I let you have that.
But how would this sound as an agreement? Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And because they've been involved in that process, they've been given their why. You know, if you say- Mm-hmm ... "We need to put our shoes on now because we're about- Mm ... to leave the house, and if we don't have shoes on our feet when we leave the house- Mm
we're gonna potentially hurt our feet. Our socks are- Mm ... gonna get wet," anything like that. Okay. You know, and again- Mm ... it depends on each individual child, and these are just, like, examples. But if you- Mm ... can explain the why in a way that isn't patronizing and it isn't-
[00:49:42] Michaela: Mm ...
[00:49:42] Emma: because I've asked you to, 'cause I'm the parent.
Mm. You know, we still have moments where it's like, "I need you to hold my hand." Why? "Because my job is to keep you safe."
[00:49:52] Michaela: Mm.
[00:49:52] Emma: You know, that's my job. Yeah. And this isn't an environment that I feel you're safe in unless you're holding my hand- Mm ... because, like, cars are coming past quickly or there's lots of people, whatever it is.
But if they- Mm ... understand that my job is to keep them safe, that ... It's like, okay, right. And sometimes you might go, I, I'll go, "What's my job?" And they're like, "Keeping me safe," you know, and like- ... grab my hand. But they understand even if- Mm ... they don't agree with it in that moment. But I think sometimes people think that children are these little things we can program and we can- Yeah
mold. Yeah. And particularly with a two-year child, that just does not fly. No. It doesn't at all. You have to be prepared to have, like, the negotiation skills of, like, top prosecution lawyer in some instances. Yep. You think- Yep ... when you are an adult, good luck. You are gonna do well, like, in- Mm-hmm ... whatever field you want to do.
But what, right now I just need to get you out of this shop.
[00:50:52] Michaela: Yes, yeah. Just the, the simplicity and the basics, that need to happen when they're also always living in the complexity. They want- Yeah ... to live in the, the difficult. sometimes you're just like, "Well, we just need to trim your nails now." Yeah.
That's kind of a non-negotiable, and that can be really difficult. And I found for me it's been the biggest learning of, of flexibility, of- Mm-hmm ... of choosing to let things go and- Mm-hmm ... tolerating, you know, the ... I mean, the, the fear or the worry about being judged by other parents or- Oh, yeah ... wondering why we haven't had a haircut, why we haven't-
[00:51:24] Emma: Mm-hmm
[00:51:24] Michaela: uh, you know, why he hasn't gone in the shower. And I'm dreading when he's gonna come into teenage years. I'm hoping that that will create his why for him a bit more. Yeah. That actually now you're starting to have BO. Yeah. So now you will have to do it. So, there's a lot of those things that you think, "Why is this so challenging?"
[00:51:40] Emma: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:40] Michaela: But at the other, other, s- same time you can come up with remarkable things. But it's also the- The, you know, the cognitive ability, not just for maths and times tables, but also for perspective-taking. Yeah. Like, some of the most gentle, beautiful, social justice- Mm-hmm ... fairness things that come, have come out of my children's mouths because they can see things other people can't see.
[00:52:03] Emma: Yeah.
[00:52:03] Michaela: They will not go past a homeless person without asking me, "Have you got a banana in your bag?"
[00:52:07] Emma: Mm-hmm. "
[00:52:07] Michaela: Because I want to give them, they are hungry." Mm-hmm. So there's something there about the, it's not just an academic ability- No ... it's an ability to see the world differently- Yeah ... that I absolutely adore in my children.
[00:52:18] Emma: And
[00:52:18] Michaela: I think- Do you see that in the people you support too?
[00:52:20] Emma: Definitely. And I was just gonna say, like, when, when my eldest was learning about the Great Fire of London, right? Mm. He was inconsolable. They would do ... And, like, the teacher just kept saying, "It's okay. It's okay. Like, it happened a long time ago."
And then he went in, 'cause they've got an open door policy for the head teacher's office, and he went into the head teacher's office, and he was like, "I'm just so sad that all those people died, and it's really sad." Like, 'cause he understood the numbers. You know? Mm-hmm. It wasn't just a big number to him. He understood exactly what that sort of- Yeah
quantity was. Yeah. And the head teacher just went to him, "Do you know what? It is really sad. It is really sad, isn't it?" It is. "That all those families were impacted." And he was like- Mm ... "Yeah." You know? Mm. And it was that validation, and I think, like ... Oh, I've forgotten your question.
[00:53:09] Michaela: in terms of having that emotional sensitivity- Yeah
like, the, it's almost like their ability to see things that other people don't see.
[00:53:15] Emma: Yeah. So it's that- Yeah ... expectation that you think, "Well, like, it happened a long time ago, and that's gonna be fine." You know, like-
[00:53:22] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:53:22] Emma: my children will still get very upset at certain films, and I think, "Oh, can we not watch, like, something a bit more interesting?"
No, we're still crying at Disney. Mm. Okay, that's fine because they understa- you know, Wild Robot, ooh. Oof. Oof. Yeah, I know. That's- All of us- Yeah ... we're in floods. But you know- That's tear jerker ... when
you're trying to keep it together- Yeah ... and then you look along, and, the thing that you think, "Well, my child shouldn't really understand that 'cause they're not a parent."
[00:53:50] Michaela: Mm, they
[00:53:50] Emma: do. And they're in floods. Mm-hmm. You know? And I think a lot of families, they go, "But my child can be so empathetic and so loving, and then the next minute they'll tell me that they hate me and I've ruined their life."
Mm-hmm. Like, but that's because that's what they believe in- In a, in a flowchart
[00:54:08] Michaela: with algorithms
[00:54:11] Emma: Yeah, that is extreme. That is some commitment. I love that. But, you know, that was some persistence, wasn't it?
[00:54:16] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:54:17] Emma: You know, that- It was, yeah ... it seemed like you worked really hard on that flowchart. Thank you.
[00:54:22] Michaela: Yeah. And I see the effort. And I saved it, and I thought I'm gonna put that in, put that in a frame and tease him about it when he's old enough to appreciate it. Yeah, on-
[00:54:28] Emma: once you stop crying, you know, when you
[00:54:32] Michaela: realize- Yeah ... "Oh,
[00:54:32] Emma: yeah." Yeah. "
[00:54:32] Michaela: Okay, look. There it is." But I mean, it has le- it, it has led to some really good conversations though about, like, you know, that, that thing about when you can do a repair, but you've still- Mm-hmm
scrunched up a paper, and you've smoothed- Mm-hmm ... it out again, and the, the, the crinkles are still there. Yeah. So I've tried to speak to him about that, of when you are highly intelligent like that and you can see things other people don't see, he also knows how to go for the jugular. He knows- Oh, yes ... what, what can, what he can say.
So being really, like, aware of you can't just-
[00:55:00] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[00:55:01] Michaela: whack whatever out that comes out of your mouth because you want- Mm-hmm ... to win the thing you want to win. It's like- Yeah ... he's fighting fair basically rather than fighting dirty. So there's- Mm-hmm ... this every day is a school day with, with him. Yeah. And I think of the, what you said about the Great Fire of London and feeling- Mm-hmm
such immense sadness over the deaths that you can imagine and visualize yourself. Mm-hmm. Those are the kids that grown up to be the, the adults who cannot tolerate watching the news. Yeah. And that's okay. It's just too intense for the nervous system- Yeah ... because they can feel the suffering so deeply.
Those- Mm-hmm ... those are the grown-ups who turn into psychologists- Yeah ... like me- Yeah ... who are moved by
[00:55:34] Emma: suffering. I was gonna say, I don't l- I don't watch the news. I, when it comes on the radio- I don't either ... I'm like, "Nah, let's just not listen to that, and there's three minutes I can just-" Not think about it because- Yeah
it's just too hard. When you're already thinking about every- Mm ... like, you know, and it's the memory. When- Mm ... they remember something, like my children might say to me, "Oh, well, this happened on like the 27th of this, on this time and this time," and, or, "You said you were gonna do that," and it's not that. And you're like, "Okay."
You know? So we do have a lot of conversations around-
[00:56:09] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:56:10] Emma: that's a expression. But then we say like, "Oh, well, an idiom." And then it turned into a whole thing of what are more idioms, and then we had to learn- Mm ... all the idioms and their meanings. And sometimes you think, "I can't just say a throwaway thing," you know, like where some parents would say, "Oh, yeah, no, that's just a saying," and their kid would accept it.
But a- Mm-hmm ... 2E kid's like, "Ah, okay. So where did that come from? What's the origin of that?" Mm. "What does that mean?" Mm-hmm. And then they'll come out with these idioms, and then they'll just go, "Oh, and that's related to that, and that's related to that." And, you know, for when my kids were very little, you'd say, "Oh, look, there's a cow," as you were driving around, and then all of a sudden they'd be telling you the whole of the squash and a squeeze.
[00:56:55] Michaela: Yeah. Yep.
[00:56:56] Emma: And then that would lead on to another thing, and that would lead on to another thing. And this number's bigger than this one, and that's that. And then in this time that... And you're just like, "I just saw a cow. That's all this was."
[00:57:08] Michaela: Yes. And I don't need to hear the whole Gruffalo recited, like my son- Yeah
used to do that when he was two for, for amusing, all the staff at nursery. They'd be like, "Do it again. Can you do it again?" And he'd be like reciting the whole thing. And it's like he's not- Yeah ... you know, it's not, it's not for shits and giggles, but it, it is, it is fascinating and also utterly, soul-destroying to sometimes see them struggle when they get shut down by others.
And the-
[00:57:29] Emma: Yeah ...
[00:57:30] Michaela: it's like the darker side of giftedness is the self-esteem- Mm-hmm ... impact, right? When you feel- Oh ... that you are different.
[00:57:35] Emma: Yeah. Because I think that's a thing, and it ties into more generally about, like, kind of labeling. But these- Yeah ... kids know they're different. They might not understand why, but, you know, you...
A lot of 2E kids struggle socially- Mm-hmm ... and that's often because they understand they're different. They don't necessarily understand why. They've maybe come up with this really fun, elaborate game that they wanna play with their friend, and their friend- Mm-hmm ... just doesn't understand what the rules are.
Or, you know- Yeah ... they're really interested in space, and they're four years old, and they're saying, "Oh, well, this planet has this, and this planet has this, and this is a gas giant, and this is the density on the surface of that planet." And s- that kid that they're talking to is just like, "I, I don't know the name of the planets yet.
I know about stars, planets, and rockets." Yeah. So then- Yeah ... there's this automatic barrier for entry because- Mm ... you have the 2E child that's, like, really excited, wants to share that, and wants that connection, but isn't- Mm ... getting it, and is... They're interpreting that as, "Oh, well, no one's interested in what I'm interested in.
No one wants to play- Mm ... with me. No one..." Mm. Or they're told to kind of play something that that child wants to play-
[00:58:52] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[00:58:52] Emma: rather than what they want to play, and it's quite one-sided. Mm. So often you'll- Mm ... find a 2E child, if they're in an environment where they can mix with different age groups, will gravitate towards the older children.
[00:59:04] Michaela: The older. Mm. Yeah.
[00:59:06] Emma: Or the adults, because the adults- Mm ... will be adults and say, "Oh, no, that's interesting," and they might also know something. But you also have the older kids, in the best outcome, that doesn't see it- Mm ... as, oh, here's this little brainy kid coming and just telling us stuff, but they're interested.
So it's really helpful- Mm ... if, you know, you can have, like, a mentor program in the school- Mm-hmm ... and things like that, and you can, like, buddy up them based on their interests rather than their age- Mm ... because then they're getting that back and forth that they're not getting- Mm ... so it's more positive for their self-esteem.
Because if they're not around children like them, and they don't understand, they just think- Mm ... "Why have I gotta help so-and-so with their reading?" You know, like- Yeah ... 'cause that's the other thing, they'll get turned into, like, the mini teaching assistant sometimes.
[00:59:58] Michaela: Yes, they do.
[00:59:58] Emma: Or they'll put themselves in that role-
[01:00:01] Michaela: Mm
[01:00:01] Emma: because they're like, "I've gotta do something." 'Cause they try to help, especially
[01:00:03] Michaela: if they're friends. Yeah.
[01:00:04] Emma: Yeah. And they've gotta do something. Yeah. And then it kind of separates them, and they don't feel included, and-
[01:00:13] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:00:14] Emma: then the, it's never about anyone else, it's about them. Mm-hmm. "Well, there's something wrong with me.
It's because I don't take enough time with my work," or, "I am talking too much." And pe- Mm ... you know. So then that self-esteem is really negatively impacted because-
[01:00:31] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:00:32] Emma: they're just not around a lot of kids like them. Like, you know, you're talking about, like- Mm ... 2% of the population here. We're not-
[01:00:37] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:00:38] Emma: You know?
Yeah. Which I know is funny because obviously in this conversation we're both 2E adults with 2E children. Yeah. But- Yeah ... you know, it's such a small percentage that, you know, you can't just get them all together. No, you can't. Well, you know- And even if you did, that doesn't mean they're gonna get along because they have different interests and things like that.
But it's really- Of course ... key- Yeah ... that they're able- Yeah ... to see that it's not something wrong with them, it's just a difference. Yeah. And but it's hard when you've got a kid that's like, "I just want friends. Just wanna get- Yeah ... along with people." And you're going, "Well, when you go to uni, if you go- Mm ... to uni, then you'll be doing something about your special interest and so will everyone else."
'Cause that's such a long- Yeah ... time for a child to wait. And I think that's one of the things- It is. That's entire childhood gone. Exactly. And what, they're just ticking it off. They're clocking in for their school time and things like that, and I think that's one of the things- A lot of parents struggle with because they feel like- Mm-hmm
my child's not getting anything they need, and then they feel this pressure to be- Mm ... everything that that child is missing-
[01:01:42] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:01:43] Emma: in school- Mm ... in their friendships. So they'll put on the like, "Okay, right, we'll do a special trip for that museum, and there's that exhibition," and, "Oh, I've signed you up- Mm ... for this online chess club because no one locally likes chess."
And I know that a lot of these- Mm ... are stereotypes, but you know, I'm just thinking about things that are easily, like, grasped as, you know- Mm ... obviously if your kid likes football, near enough every little town or village- Mm ... has a local football team that your kid could go- Yeah ... along to. But if- Yeah ... it's like your kid loves maths or astronomy or, you know, ancient history, there's not-
[01:02:20] Michaela: Mm
[01:02:20] Emma: that-
[01:02:21] Michaela: No ...
[01:02:21] Emma: there for them, you know? So you do have to hunt these things out, and then parents feel like, "Oh, I can't find anything, so it's fine. I'll just do this with you. I'll sign up for that webinar at the, you know, Royal College- Mm ... and then you can watch it." And you know, it's just- Mm ... "I'll read that book- There's a lot of pressure
to make sure it's age appropriate before you read it." Yeah. A
[01:02:41] Michaela: lot of pressure for the kids then as well to-
[01:02:43] Emma: Yeah ...
[01:02:44] Michaela: to feel that they can be stimulated for, for the, for the parents to provide that. I do find- Mm-hmm ... that that's a lot of, you know, I see some of my neurotypical friends and they're, you know, of average intelligence or above.
Mm-hmm. But there's a big difference between, you know, being of average intelligence and the top 2%, that in terms of stimulation need to feed the children. I see some of those- Yeah ... neurotypical families and the kids just go off and play.
[01:03:09] Emma: Yeah.
[01:03:09] Michaela: And it's like, oh, they just go and play. They don't have to be- Mm-hmm
fed stimulation. They don't have to be like, "Well, I'm bored." Yeah. they don't have to argue about what snack to have or, you know, whether they're gonna do, a shower tonight or tomorrow. Yeah. This is a lot of effort that is done for the parents to support- Mm-hmm ... the, those children. Or they drop them off at school-
[01:03:25] Emma: especially if it's not seen ... and walk away- Yeah ... like, "Oh, that's all cool."
[01:03:29] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:03:29] Emma: And you just think- Yeah ... wow. Like-
[01:03:32] Michaela: Yeah ...
[01:03:32] Emma: what, you, you just walk away from school and you think that it's all gonna be all right. You don't need to worry about- Yeah ... if you're gonna get called that your kids refuse to do the work or they're not- Mm
you know? And it's that level, what do you mean you don't need to attend like termly meetings to talk about-
[01:03:48] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:03:48] Emma: what their current interests are and how you can hook their learning- Mm ... into those things? And it's not- Yeah ... anything against neurotypical parents, and- Mm ... even like neurodivergent parents, and I think sometimes- Being a 2E parent is even more isolating- Mm-hmm
because you can't really relate to a lot of the SEN parents because- Mm-hmm ... you know, particularly depending on the support needs, the... It's really difficult, and you don't wanna feel like- Yeah ... you're competing in a way.
[01:04:21] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:04:22] Emma: And, and then you talk to neurotypical parents, and they're like, "Oh, nice problem to have.
I wish my kid would read." And you think, "No, that's- Yeah ... that's not what I'm talking about. Like, I'm having to have a meeting because they're reading five years ahead." But-
[01:04:36] Michaela: Yes ...
[01:04:37] Emma: refusing to in school
[01:04:38] Michaela: And asking questions about what, they've read in their book that they're emotionally not ready for yet.
[01:04:42] Emma: Yeah.
[01:04:43] Michaela: I mean, I did that too. I think I read Stephen King when I was 10. Oof. It's not quite, not quite ready for it, but you know, it's- No ... that, that was engaging 'cause I liked the way he, he wrote- ... his language. And I've found that's a lovely way to connect with my child now, reading some of the books that are probably, like, what, ahead of him, but not yet grown-up books.
Mm-hmm. So we read, Evenfall by Alexandra
[01:05:05] Emma: Armstrong- Mm-hmm ...
[01:05:06] Michaela: because no doubt he's probably 2E as well. The language is done very intricate, and it's- Mm-hmm ... almost feels like he's painting a picture with words. Yeah. And I found that kind of reaching, reaching down towards my son and him reaching up towards me, and I'm thinking- Mm-hmm
as long as there's no, no emotionally inappropriate content- Yeah ... that's a lovely connection. And we talked- Mm-hmm ... about what we saw in it or what could happen in, in the second book, and I enjoyed it. It's like a- Mm-hmm ... a lovely read to read, you know, mysteries for children. So I've tried to enter his worlds, you know.
Mm-hmm. I know far more about Minecraft and Pokémon than I'd ever thought I'd want. Oh, cool. But you know, it's, But Pokémon can also be, 'cause I'm interested in psychology. Mm-hmm. We did a, a fun thing in the car on the way home from Center Parcs, because boredom in car is awful, right? Mm-hmm. asking ChatGPT to describe all of us family members, as various different Pokémons.
And it was, very accurate. And then, you know, doing- What type were you? ... Pokémon quizzes.oh, who was I? Psyduck, I think. Oh. Which-
[01:06:04] Emma: Oh, wow ...
[01:06:04] Michaela: which makes sense. Yeah ... psy- psychic type, you know. Yeah. and also, Mew, I think. Mm-hmm. Never mind, but yeah. So the ones that- Yeah ... are sort of very... My whole team, we could also build our own team and the- Mm-hmm
Pokémons we, we picked, for it to analyze what type of army we'd build, and mine were all like- Oh, wow ... emotion, focusing on emotion- ... psychology and, Yeah ... yeah. It's interesting. So yeah, that's, that's the stuff that you think, "I didn't think I was gonna do that with my kids."
[01:06:31] Emma: No.
[01:06:32] Michaela: But it's actually really interesting.
And hearing- Yeah ... their worldview. And so if you have the patience to listen It's easier to have that if you also set, set those boundaries when you don't- Yeah ... have the patience to listen. Yeah. Otherwise, they would, they will eat you up.
[01:06:45] Emma: Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, sorry, what?" Or even from another room sometimes- Yeah
they'll be, "Oh- Yeah ... did you know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" And you're like, "I can't even hear you right now." Yeah. "Because I'm at- Yeah ... the other end of the room, an extractor fan's on, and what?" And then they'll get annoyed that you haven't answered them, and you're like, "If you... Come to me. Talk to me."
Yeah. I w- but, because they don't wanna stop what they're doing, but they also wanna tell you- Yeah ... it's very difficult. But I think like- It's tiring ... yeah. I think h- having those boundaries is really positive. Yeah. I think that it teaches them that impulse control a little bit as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But also that it's okay to say, "I n- need a break."
'Cause, like, we'll be in the car on the way home- Mm ... from school, and I'll, you know, some... One of my kids likes to talk on the way home, one of them doesn't. I'll be like, "Oh, how was it?" And one, my, my son will go, "Mommy, I'm just gonna look out of the window. I don't wanna talk right now." And I'm like, "Okay." Love that.
"Not a problem."
[01:07:50] Michaela: Love that. Yeah.
[01:07:51] Emma: Not a problem. He's not going, "Ugh," and shouting at me. He's going- Mm ... "I think I just need some time." So, and I think- Yeah ... well, yeah. Great. You know? And, like- Yeah ... earlier when you were talking about those moments where the, like, emotional intelligence and the empathy come through.
You know, mine were playing board games. My youngest struggles a lot with losing, and- Mm ... we had this, it's like a falling monkeys game, and she thought that you had to collect the most monkeys. Like, it's a bit like a Kerplunk thing but with monkeys. So you pull the sticks out- Mm ... the monkeys fall down. She thought you had to collect the most monkeys and- Mm
we said, "Oh no, it's about making sure you have the least amount of monkeys." And she was distraught. And my- Mm ... eldest, who's just under three years older, went, "Oh, but look." And he picked up one of the sticks and he hooked all her monkeys on. He was like, "But look how, look. Oh." And he was like trying to make it funny, like all these monkeys sliding up and down the stick.
And then every time she pulled a stick out and more monkeys fell out, he was like, "Yay, more monkeys," sort of thing.
[01:08:58] Michaela: Oh,
[01:08:59] Emma: God. And you're just like, in those moments you're like, "Okay, yes." And I will hear them- Yeah ... say to each other, "That's not a want, that's a need."
[01:09:07] Michaela: Yes.
[01:09:07] Emma: Oh, I love that. And it's hilarious. And you just go- Yeah
and you go, "But yet you're shouting at me when I'm saying so." Mm. But no, you can apply it to s- "No, I don't want to do that. You don't need me to do that. That's a want." Mm-hmm. "You don't need me." And you just think, but, you know- Yeah ... it's easier to apply that logic. But- But you know the skills are there.
[01:09:28] Michaela: Yeah.
And that's, that's the bit that they will grow up and hopefully bring it to someone, you know- Hopefully ... to, to their own children and again, they're developing, right? So I think it's the, as a sort of final summary to really think about one of the most useful things I did, in school, 'cause we're talking a lot about advocacy for our child, right?
Yeah. But you've also talked about self-advocacy there, saying, "I need to look out the window." Yeah. That's them learning from you, how do I notice my needs? How do I express those? Mm-hmm. How do I ask for them to be met? That's high level stuff that most adults can't do fir- first off. But one of the things I've tried to do to summarize his school to show my son's need is to use the analogy of, like you said, about football.
You know, there are kids in the, in the class that can run really fast. Mm-hmm. Fast at ball. They're, you know, maybe a bit taller than the others, but there are some kids in the class who really love running, and you don't tell them, "Slow down, don't run so fast," in that race. Mm-hmm. So I said, "My, my son really needs to run fast both with his legs and with his brain."
Yeah. And when he gets to run fast, so that's why he needs to have movement breaks and do the football. Mm-hmm. But he also needs to run in, with his brain. And then it felt- Mm-hmm ... less like it was like, "Why are you not stimulating him?" Mm-hmm. And more about this is just how he is and how he would be well.
Yeah. Then they started noticing, okay, we'll give him some more extensions, and they-
[01:10:42] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:10:43] Michaela: they saw that his brain needed to run fast. Mm-hmm. It's also a great way, I find, that I've explained it to him so that he can make sense of his impatience and-
[01:10:51] Emma: Mm ...
[01:10:51] Michaela: the need to know why, why, why, why, why, why. Mm-hmm.
Because, like, you're just running fast in your brain right now.
[01:10:56] Emma: Yeah.
[01:10:56] Michaela: Even then, sometimes we need to sit down and take a break. Mm-hmm. 'Cause even your brain's gonna be tired if you're running that fast all the time. Yeah.
[01:11:03] Emma: We use the analogy of a tornado brain a lot, you know, because- Yeah ... we say, like, there's so much in that tornado, and you just can't pull it out because it's moving too fast.
And you know that scene- Yeah ... in Frozen 2 where she freezes certain things- Mm ... when they're in the Enchanten Forest. I'm like, "You just need to freeze something. Try and, like, focus on what it is," and we've done the mind mapping, which I think your son would love. Well, obviously- Mm ... he's already doing it with his flow charts.
Yeah. But you know, trying to pull out those things and saying, "Right, what's this about? What-- Everything that's in your brain right now, just put it down. Don't worry, it doesn't matter what it looks like. Let's just scribble it out," or, "I'll write it down for you." And then you go, "Okay, and what comes off that?"
That externalizing it can be really helpful for that- Mm ... processing, and it is them understanding that the speed, particularly if you've got the ADHD 2E profile, it's just like-
[01:11:57] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[01:11:57] Emma: speed, speed, speed, speed, speed. And, like, wanting to get through everything is really difficult to manage, and it's not that they're not able to, but they just need to learn how to.
You know? Mm-hmm. Because I think 2E kids will get really frustrated, you know. Mm. It ties into that self-esteem. It ties into them, even if it's not at home, but at school, them being told, "Oh, you're so clever. Oh, clever clogs," you know, and things like that- Mm ... that's well-meaning, but actually- Mm ... it becomes their identity.
[01:12:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:12:30] Emma: And then when something threatens that identity because they don't understand how to learn- Mm ... then it's the, "I can't do it. I'm useless." or- Mm ... "I'm just gonna pretend," or the extension task's just gonna magically disappear, you know? Mm-hmm. Or they're given something that says it's for a year group that's two years above, and they're like, "I can't do that."
And they just disengage- Yeah ... or try to be really silly. You know? Mm-hmm. You get a lot of class clown because it's that, "I don't know how to connect, so I'll make people laugh 'cause I understand how to make people laugh." 'Cause you get this kind of mature sense of humor sometimes in a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. A lot of wordplay and things like that.
[01:13:11] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[01:13:12] Emma: Wittiness.
[01:13:13] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:13:13] Emma: yeah. So they play off that without really understanding that all, all you're doing now is causing a disruption. Mm-hmm. But the disruption, the base of it is that kid's bored.
[01:13:26] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[01:13:27] Emma: But I
[01:13:28] Michaela: think finding- That's something that happens all the time, isn't it? Yeah. Looking for the stimulation, starting something, provoking something because something needs to happen, especially- Mm-hmm
if you've finished all your work then. on the topic of the, the perfectionism, something we've done, for anyone listening and wanting another concrete thing- Mm ... is because it's really hard to teach growth mindset when it's so close to home. Like, we'll try to draw another picture. You know, tolerate that.
It can be really hard. So what we- Yeah, especially in the moment ... what we found as a good way-- especially in the moment because it's, they're dysregulated, right?
[01:13:56] Emma: Yeah.
[01:13:56] Michaela: Fully and bothered in the moment. What we found helpful to, to, to, to start that conversation is that we've been watching something, I think the YouTube channel is called, It's Amazing or Amazing Family- Mm
or something like that. So it's this family of quite wholesome values, right? If you have strong opinions about YouTube, you can watch this together with them. And all they do is, like, practicing trick shots. So bottle flips- ... and, like, throwing Frisbees in basketball hoops. Yeah. And they started this YouTube channel, like, many years ago, and they talk about how, how many hours they have to- Mm
flip a bottle before they've managed to do the trick shot. Mm-hmm. And they show you the fails, too. Yeah. They show you the ones that are really, like, crap. and I love that for showing the process and the progress- Yeah ... of y- not giving up and trying- Yeah ... to tolerate, "That was a bit shit. What do I do now?"
Yeah. And calibrating. So after we've watched that, knowing it's not at all about the things my s- my hus- my son is doing-
[01:14:46] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:14:47] Michaela: it was easier to say, "Well, that's a bit like, you know, practicing a lot of times to, to draw something." Or-
[01:14:52] Emma: Mm-hmm ...
[01:14:52] Michaela: I wonder how many times they would've done that bottle flip before they- Mm
nailed it. And, like, if we just see stuff that other people are doing, they just nailed it immediately, we don't see the, like, years and-
[01:15:02] Emma: Mm, yeah ...
[01:15:03] Michaela: years of practice leading into it. Yeah. So that's really helped us to unblock a little bit, like, actually if you want to achieve something, to that standard, you gotta practice and you're gonna tolerate being- Yeah
a bit rubbish to begin with.
[01:15:14] Emma: Yeah. And, like, it's that whole thing of, like, practice makes progress rather than practice- Mm-hmm ... makes perfect. And I would say things like musical instruments are really good for the resilience- Mm-hmm ... and the perfectionism 'cause there's very few kids or people that can just am- be amazing at a musical instrument- Mm
straight away. Because something like piano, you have to build up your muscles in your hands. Your little finger's not gonna have the same amount of strength, you know? Mm-hmm. So it is gonna sound terrible before it sounds good. Yeah. But- Yeah ... you know, it's something that, I would always say, like, with instruments, a piano's a good one to start with because you hit a key and it makes the note.
Mm-hmm. It's not like a violin where you have to have your finger- Yeah ... in the exact- Yeah ... right position for it- Yeah ... to sound decent. You know, and languages and all of those things where it has to be a gradual- Mm ... acquisition of skills rather than- Mm ... I read it and I know it, is really- Yeah ... good for a 2E kid and for perfectionism because it's- pushing them a little bit.
They need to- Mm ... that challenge, but it's doing it, you don't... If they're struggling in something You don't go, "Right, we'll just keep practicing that. We're gonna do it, we're gonna do it," because that's just- Mm ... shining a light on what they're feeling really self-conscious about.
[01:16:30] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[01:16:30] Emma: Whereas if it's something completely different, they'll learn- Mm
the skills of the resilience- Mm ... and like overcoming the challenges that- Yeah ... growth mindset, I don't know it yet, all of that, they'll learn that there. And you're able- Yeah ... to say, "But do you remember when you- Mm ... couldn't play that song on the piano and you've just played it?" Mm. You know? Mm. What helped you keep going?
What helped- Yeah ... you learn that? You know, did you know how... 'Cause sometimes I'll use really ridiculous examples. I'll be like, "You know, when you were a baby, you couldn't walk. Imagine- Mm ... if you could walk as soon as you were born, how weird would that look?" Yeah, yeah. And they'll find it hilarious. You know?
Yeah. It'd be like, "You had to crawl backwards before you crawled forwards, and there was this one time you got stuck under the sofa." And they're like cracking up laughing. Mm.
[01:17:15] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:17:15] Emma: But it's an example that is so obvious-
[01:17:20] Michaela: Mm-hmm ...
[01:17:20] Emma: that they go, "Okay, right, I had to build that up"- Yeah ... rather than, "Well, you couldn't learn to re- you didn't know how to read."
And they're like, "What do you mean? I-" Mm. "I didn't need to learn to read." 'Cause they were like so little.
[01:17:33] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[01:17:34] Emma: But really physical, visual examples are great-
[01:17:38] Michaela: Mm ...
[01:17:38] Emma: for that.
[01:17:39] Michaela: Yeah. And you could bring in some bit of slapstick into it as well, like watching people go ice skating and falling on their bum or- Oh
you know, toddlers stumbling. It's, it's, it's kind of showing that nobody can nail these skills from the- ... word get-go, and tolerating that is really important. I think a final little thing we do in the podcast is asking for a takeaway. So if- Yeah ... it would be a permission you wanted to give anyone listening- Mm-hmm
who's possibly a parent of a 2E child, what pressure you wanna take off them, what would that be?
[01:18:10] Emma: I think the main thing would be, and we touched on it earlier, like that you don't have to be everything to your child. You know? Mm. I think often the, a parent of a 2E child ends up feeling like they have to be the teacher that picks up the slack- Mm
that, 'cause they're not stimulated, and you think like, just like when you are finished with your workday, you need some time off, your child needs that time off, and you kind of need to work on building the relationship with the school if they're in school.
[01:18:39] Michaela: Mm.
[01:18:40] Emma: You know? Mm-hmm. You need to build that relationship with the school.
You're not a teacher. If you're choosing to have them in education, you need to work on that dynamic and not feel like- Mm ... I have to make up for everything my kid's missing. But also relieving that pressure that just because your child has potentially some abilities that are- Mm-hmm ... much higher, maybe they really understand physics or chemistry, does not mean that they have to do that.
If they wanna talk- Mm ... about Pokemon, if they wanna watch Bluey, if they wanna do any of the things, if they wanna laugh at fart jokes endlessly- That's okay. Just because- Mm ... they have those skills doesn't mean they need to be using them, like, every single area. Mm. Because I think sometimes when you have a child that's advanced in some areas, parents feel like, "Okay, well, you know, we've gotta do their GCSE early, and we've gotta do this early, and we've gotta get them into Mensa-" Yeah
"or we've got..." And then you're just like- Mm ... well, they're a child, you know? Yeah. So I think it's like that permission to let them have a childhood, and trust- Mm ... that the, as long as you can keep that love of learning- As long as you can keep that curiosity, everything else will catch up. The thing to focus on is that, like, emotional resilience, that-
[01:19:57] Michaela: Mm
[01:19:58] Emma: growth mindset because you know they learn quickly. When they're interested- Mm ... in something, they'll get it. You know? Like- Yeah ... a lot of these kids don't learn to ride a bike until they're like, "Oh, if I don't learn to ride a bike, I can't go to my friend's house on my own." Mm. Right? Better learn to ride a bike, and that kid will learn bike in record time.
[01:20:18] Michaela: Yeah, because their motor skills are ready for it as well. Mm-hmm. They're, they're ready- Yeah ... and just clicks and goes. And then they're all so different, aren't they? You know, it's- Yeah ... it's been really helpful to listen to this and having that permission to be kinder to yourself, and especially the last bit you said because there might be people listening wondering, "How am I gonna do all of these things now?"
Mm-hmm. "How have... Answer these questions like this when I'm juggling full-time work- Yeah ... one or more of the children, and- Mm-hmm ... maybe own physical illness or their own, you know, executive dysfunction and- Mm ... or perimenopause. Hello, chaos. where you're feeling like your 2E child is talking at you nonstop and your brain cannot cope with any more noise.
It's, it's hard. Mm-hmm. Like, so I think both of us having that experience, where we know it's, it's not that you do this one hack and then it's sorted. It's, it's a challenge.
[01:21:05] Emma: No, oh, if only. Like, that's one thing I always say- Yeah ... to parents, like, "I'm really sorry, but I don't have the magic wand." Mm-hmm. "I can give you ideas.
I can give you strategies. You will need to change those strategies to work with your child-" Yeah "... and with your family, and also adapt them," because me saying, "Do this," if you're completely- Mm ... emotionally dysregulated, you're not able- Mm-hmm ... to do that. But if y- I could say, say give yourself permission to have that time, to set that boundary- Mm-hmm
to set the timer. Like, don't do it for 60 minutes. Do it for five minutes. Mm. Depending on the age of your child, maybe if they're really little, you say, you know, "We're gonna do two minutes, and then we'll build it up." Mm. But really- Yeah ... giving yourself permission to actually not have to be everything for your child just because- Yeah
they're not, their needs aren't being met elsewhere.
[01:21:54] Michaela: Mm.
[01:21:54] Emma: It's okay. You don't
[01:21:55] Michaela: have to.
[01:21:56] Emma: Yeah. And I think that's really hard. It's okay. For parents generally- It is really hard ... but for 2E parents, where they're just like, "My child's needs aren't being met because they're neurodivergent and they're not recognized.
Their academic needs aren't being met. I need- Mm ... to become an occupational therapist and have a PhD level knowledge of, like, maths." Mm. You can't.
[01:22:15] Michaela: No.
[01:22:16] Emma: You're not a robot. You can't. And it's okay to just say, "Do you know what? We're gonna watch Crunch Labs."
[01:22:21] Michaela: Yes, I love CrunchLabs
[01:22:22] Emma: Oh. Yeah Except all the adverts for, like, buy this kit that you can only get in America.
Yeah. You're like- Yeah ... what would shipping cost me?
[01:22:30] Michaela: I have had that same thought this morning. also, I think it's mildly amusing to watch, so it's fun for me- Yeah ... as a, as a grown-up. The
[01:22:36] Emma: squirrels.
[01:22:37] Michaela: The sq- oh, the squirrels. That was the good one, and the, the dog one when they did the sniffer dog. Have you seen that one?
Oh,
[01:22:42] Emma: yeah.
[01:22:43] Michaela: Yes. So yeah, so anyone who wants to dive into more knowledge that you can tolerate, You know, you're learning alongside your child.
[01:22:50] Emma: Yeah
[01:22:50] Michaela: I'm learning stuff about school that I never picked up the first time around in school Yeah ... and it's like, it's quite helpful to learn about the Great Fire of London, right?
[01:22:57] Emma: Yeah. Well- So- Yeah.
[01:22:59] Michaela: Yeah, well.
[01:23:00] Emma: No, I mean, you will- Squirrels
[01:23:01] Michaela: are more interesting.
[01:23:01] Emma: You will go through so many. You go, "Just as I've finally got all the dinosaurs down, oh, we're, now we're onto sea creatures. Okay."
[01:23:08] Michaela: Yes. "
[01:23:09] Emma: Oh, now we're onto ancient Egyptians. Now we're onto ancient Romans." You know, y- there's no point in- Yeah
get a- There's no point ... get a magazine subscription. We love ENCYCLOPEDIA. We love What on Earth?, all of those things, so they just come through every month.
[01:23:23] Michaela: Oh. Well, we have, we have The Week Junior. That's quite good as well.
[01:23:26] Emma: Oh, we had that, but it was a bit too much with the- Was
[01:23:30] Michaela: it too much news?
[01:23:31] Emma: Yeah Was it
Yeah.
[01:23:34] Michaela: Can you say the other two again?
[01:23:36] Emma: Aquila, which is- Mm-hmm ... you know, A-Q-U-I-L-A. Mm-hmm ... What on Earth, and we also have, Science and Nature magazine subscriptions. Mm. Yeah Because they're always something interesting. Like, in the Aquila ones they have Taskmaster challenges,Mm ... and things like that.
So, but subscriptions, if someone says- Yeah ... "What should I get your kid?" Get that magazine subscription.
[01:24:01] Michaela: Yes. '
[01:24:02] Emma: Cause-
[01:24:02] Michaela: Yeah,
[01:24:02] Emma: that's a great one ... you know, that takes ... It's the novelty, it comes through, but it's interesting and it's not patronizing and ... Yeah.
[01:24:08] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:24:08] Emma: But you will probably then have a, every month, "Oh, now we need to learn all about that.
Now we n- ... The library is your best friend."
[01:24:16] Michaela: Yes. We, we go to the library a lot, and it's really helpful. especially for those, create your own path books, where you choose- Oh, yeah ... your own path books, that you can be sort of deciding what, what direction you go. Oh, yeah ... that's really helpful as well.
[01:24:29] Emma: Have you c- come across the Maths Quest, Science Quest and History Quest books?
[01:24:33] Michaela: No, I'm not sure.
[01:24:34] Emma: Oh. Yeah, you'll like those, or your child will like those. Yeah. And Murderous Maths. They're like Horrible Histories- Murderous Maths ... but for
[01:24:41] Michaela: maths. Ooh, Murderous Maths. We do, we do love a murder mystery. Which, you know- Yeah
y- I've said to him, like, "This does not mean you get to go and bring this to realia- reality," but he just likes the deduction, right? Yeah. You're looking for the clues and you're trying to solve the mystery, so he loves that. Mm-hmm. He just seemed to think that a lot of people get murdered these days, so, yeah.
It's ... But, again, like, the final thought I was gonna ask is, like, you know what? We talked a lot about challenge, but can I ask you honestly, do you have a lot of fun in your family?
[01:25:06] Emma: Oh, y- yeah. Like, I think sometimes, depending on, like, our stress levels as parents- Yeah ... and our regulation, we'll be more fun than other times.
But, you know- Yeah ... it is that kind of just, "All right. We're taking a deep dive into this now. Okay, cool. Let's do it." Mm. "Oh, okay." Like, we're, the way we're gonna get our kid to walk from that end to that end is by doing, we're going on a bear hunt, you know? Yeah. It's finding all of those little moments. And some of the conversations they come out with-
[01:25:37] Michaela: Mm
[01:25:38] Emma: it's just ridiculous. And, you know, I love the things of, like, we sometimes do a, like, random fact of the day. You know? Mm. We do, at tea time, we do, like, our rose and thorn. Like, what was our high point? What was the thing that we didn't like about our day? But sometimes we also do, like, a random fact or w- a joke.
And some of the things- Mm ... they come out with, you're just like, "Wow, I genuinely didn't know that." Like, you can tell how old- Mm ... a whale is by its ear wax.
[01:26:06] Michaela: Mm. Yeah, stuff like that. Really random things.
[01:26:08] Emma: And, yeah. So I love all of those interactions, and I love, like- those conversations, but I also think it's quite funny because they think that they're obviously more intelligent than anyone in the house.
And when you go, "Oh, yeah, I knew that," and like, "This ties into that," then it's like, "What?"
[01:26:25] Michaela: Yeah. "
[01:26:25] Emma: You know about that?" Yeah. And you're like, "Where do you think your brain wiring- Yeah ... comes from?"
[01:26:31] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Where'd you get that from? It's funny how the sort of the, the kindness that can come in it, and, you know, my son having, having me model those boundaries for a while, he will sometimes say to me, "Do you need to go up and meditate?"
And he's nine. He's like... It's like, and I was like, "Oh, that's so kind of you, but I also know you're saying that so you can go and grab the tablet." Yeah. So, so it's twofold. Like, he said, "No, no, I honestly think you look a bit tired. Maybe you need to go meditate." I'm like, "Mm-hmm. What are you look- Yeah ... what are you after," right?
Yeah. "What do you want?" But it's that sense of it's starting to s- trickle in that, you know- Yeah ... there's things we need in the family, and that when I've had people come to the house that have not been to the house before, he will bring them along to the piano and point to how his mom has written a book and how h- she- Aw
these are her awards and stuff. so, you know, we think that they don't pay attention, but they do.
[01:27:16] Emma: Oh,
[01:27:17] Michaela: they do. They really, really ... They pay attention to everything. It's just absorbed.
[01:27:21] Emma: And I, I remember having a just, like, really stressful time at one point, and my son went to me, "Mommy, you really do so much, don't you?"
He was like, "'Cause you're looking after us, and you're doing this thing, and you're doing that thing, and you're looking after the do- and you..." And I was just like, "Do you know what? Yeah, mate, I have got a lot on." And he was like, "That must be hard." Aw. And you wanna be like, "It
[01:27:46] Michaela: is." And then you're like- But- "Do you want a new, do you want a new Pokemon card?
Or what, what are your options?" Oh. But yeah.
[01:27:52] Emma: No. No. Well, there was a moment, I'm, just very briefly tell you this story. He was, he was two, and he was walking around with the TV remote, and he was like, "And he had everything he needed. 'Hmm, where's the remote?' He said to himself, but then he got it. 'Oh, let's sit and watch some TV,' said Mommy."
And he's, like, doing it like it's a whole story because he thought, "Ah, that way I'll get to watch the TV." And, you
[01:28:20] Michaela: know-
[01:28:20] Emma: Mm ... just like, really?
[01:28:22] Michaela: Yeah.
[01:28:22] Emma: Really? You
[01:28:24] Michaela: know? And sometimes you just, sometimes I just go, "Touché. Fine."
[01:28:27] Emma: Yeah. "You
[01:28:28] Michaela: win." And you're like, "
[01:28:28] Emma: Fine, put it on,
[01:28:29] Michaela: mate." 'Cause, like-
[01:28:29] Emma: Like, the,
[01:28:29] Michaela: the effort ... you can have it.
You've argued it in such a hilarious way that I'm like- Yeah ... eh. Yeah. And it, it is again, it's what comes back into our relationship, right? Yeah. It's rather than digging our heels in, it's just like, if you can laugh at it and-
[01:28:41] Emma: Yeah ...
[01:28:42] Michaela: yeah. Sometimes I've, I've high-fived him, and he's like, the glint in his eye, 'cause he's like, "I know.
I've impressed you, haven't I?" Yeah. And I'm like, "Yeah, you did, kind of, actually, so..."
[01:28:51] Emma: Well, and the- "It's fine" ... my daughter at the moment, she's going through a phase where, and I don't know where she's learnt this, but it was, I said, "Oh, look, you know, I, I wish your first response wasn't that." And she went, "Well, bad luck 'cause it is."
And I was like, "Oh." And then I heard her brother say like, "I really need some time to myself. Could you leave my room please?" And she went, "Well, bad luck. I'm here." And just, like- ... kept getting closer. And I thought, "Oh."
[01:29:19] Michaela: Sassy.
[01:29:20] Emma: Sassy. Yeah. Mm. You think-
[01:29:22] Michaela: Yeah ...
[01:29:22] Emma: help us when, when she's a teenager. But I just think those moments you do have to laugh.
Yeah. Like, not in a way where it's like, "Oh yeah, sure. Great. Get away with that." But just because you think, "Do you know what? Like, when I was little, I told my parents they were despicable- Mm ... and I was four. 'You're despicable. I'm gonna go and sit under my desk until I'm 90 or how, until you learn how to be a decent parent.'"
At four.
[01:29:44] Michaela: Mm.
[01:29:45] Emma: I came out from under- Yeah ... the desk, but you know, you have to kinda go, "My ki- my kids just used those words in the correct context. I don't like how it was used-"
[01:29:53] Michaela: Yeah ... "but-" No ... "
[01:29:54] Emma: hats off to you."
[01:29:56] Michaela: Yeah. And again, that's, that's goes to show that we've, we're doing different things to the generation before us, which that would've been, you know, so- Oh
disrespectful or don't, don't talk that way to, grown-ups, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I just, I have to go in the other room and go 'cause I can't not laugh about it. Yeah. 'Cause it's hilarious, the stuff that they come out with sometimes.
[01:30:13] Emma: Yeah, where you're like that. But- I know no one can see it, but where you're like that Trying to just like get back- Yeah
no, we cannot talk to each other like that. You're allowed to have whatever feelings you like, but you cannot use them to hurt other people. Mm. But inside you're going, "That was hilarious."
[01:30:30] Michaela: Yes, you cannot say that. And it's like, "Don't call your sister a pooper head." you know, the things that c- the things that come out of our mouths, right?
Yeah. That you don't think you were gonna say. But, yeah, I hope that this has been helpful for anyone listening as well, that, you know, you're not alone in this if you have a, a, a two E child. And yes, there are r- many dimensions in it. And if you wanna see more of what, Emma does with Kind of Extraordinary, you can head over to her website, and I'll pop the link to that, which I believe is kindofextraordinary- .co.uk What, what was...
.co.uk. Brilliant, so I'll pop that in the- And there is
[01:31:01] Emma: actually a, two E resource on there as well.
[01:31:04] Michaela: Brilliant ... so it's a bit, it's got a bit of a checklist ... you got, if you go there, downloads you can get.
[01:31:07] Emma: Yeah.
[01:31:07] Michaela: Brilliant. Thank you. So, and, they can find you on Instagram as well?
[01:31:11] Emma: Yep, Instagram, that's where I, yeah.
Y- you'll see me doing a lot of silly things on reels, but there is a lot of like information as well. You know, I put a lot of things about personal experience and like advocacy and all of those things goes into it because I think that's the things that parents really need, you know- Yeah ... knowing the language to use and knowing how to open those conversations.
[01:31:35] Michaela: Yes, very much the case. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast
Thank you, dear listener, for coming to the end of this episode. And it's always a scary one when I talk about twice exceptionality or giftedness, because it triggers so much shame in so many people in our community, where we are told that we are too much, and don't be arrogant, and don't toot your own horn, don't be boastful.
And it can be really challenging in a way that makes us dull our light and not shine as brightly as we could otherwise, because we are fearful of being told off for being bright, in a way that you don't tell off the kid who's running the fastest in the race in school on sports day. You wouldn't say, "Slow down so everyone else can catch up."
So I am very pleased that we've had that conversation today. And for anyone who recognizes that they might have high learning potential or high ability cognitively in themselves or their children, please do know that I attract women like yourselves, where we do get a very high level of the conversations when we get together.
And not just because we're all super brainy academic, but because we are seeing things that other people might not see, and it does bring extra layers and levels to the coaching when you have the ability for high learning potential. So if you've ever been that brainy kid who was worried you were gonna be told off 'cause you were correcting your teacher, welcome.
You, you will fit right in. If you want to come and meet other people like that and come along and be guided by me for a few hours, come along to my September reset.
That helps us to let go of some of the summer chaos and give ourselves some spaciousness and clarity of how you want to enter September and the autumn, on the 12th of September, and you'll get all the details in the link in the show notes. And you can also get all the details in my newsletter if you go to thethomasconnection.co.uk/newsletter.
Not free on the 12th of September? You can also come along to Golden in London on the 9th of October. So I'll be running these in-person events more and more often because I think it's really valuable to build this community of other women who are like us, where you don't have to apologize for dropping a random fact or seeing things differently, or the fact that you do Wordle for shits and giggles.
So, yeah. Thank you for listening and make sure to subscribe to not miss the next episode.
