رونوشت کامل Corin Mellor on stainless steel, Sheffield, and designing beautiful cutlery.

involved in actually manufacturing the gas. 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:43.599 And the gas used to be made in this building and then pumped into the old Victorian gasometer, uh which is actually where the round building, our cutlery factory, stands. 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:46.319 Okay, so this is you're sat in your studio. 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:49.280 I mean you have a kind of I don't know, do you call it a campus? 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:49.840 Yes. 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:50.719 A campus. 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:51.680 Let's call it a campus. 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:53.599 A collection of buildings. 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:55.840 Yeah, you have you have a collection of buildings. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:57.439 So this is your studio. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:58.400 You have the factory. 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:06.400 Which is also my studio as well, really, because my studio is in two parts, but we can elongate that further down the line, I suppose. 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:08.240 But you also live there, right, as well. 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.120 Uh yes. 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:16.319 So the door you see right at the end, um, there's a little bridge there, and that little bridge then takes me um into my house. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:17.280 Very good. 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:19.919 So should we talk a little bit about the factory? 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.680 Because it it feels kind of intrinsic to the company and the brand. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:27.439 Designed by Hopkins and partners with your father, as you point out. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.960 It's circular, which is kind of interesting because you don't get too many circular factories, I would posit. 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:35.439 And the reason for that is the gas works, I presume. 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:35.919 Yeah. 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:50.879 So when we took this site on uh in 1990, um we were faced with a lot of um old gas pipes um and a couple of rather large concrete foundations. 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.719 The gasometers had been deconstructed. 00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:04.479 And um my father was on the build VA buildings committee with with Michael Hopkins, and they became great great allies, I think, and friends. 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.639 And um Michael came, uh was the obvious choice, really, for my father. 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:19.439 So he came along and and had a look at this derelict piece of concrete with this uh round shape and uh came up with the idea of actually building a round cutlery factory. 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:30.079 I was gonna ask what the affinity was between David Meller and Hopkins and partners, because at one point in the early 90s, your father also commissioned them to design a rather rather different building. 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:32.240 A square building, yeah. 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:33.199 Yeah. 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:33.839 Yeah. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:56.319 I mean, it was really, I think, from that sort of initial um meeting, really, I suppose, and and

and um forming allies um uh at the VNA, and they became great friends, and and the the friendship really was a sort of family friendship, and we're still very much connected with with Patty Hopkins um and and their children. 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:06.319 So it's actually been a sort of family relationship which has gone on, endured for decades, and then we've we've sort of, I suppose, out of the relationship, we've spawned several buildings. 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:11.199 So we've got three, three Hopkins buildings, um, which is rather nice. 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:12.720 It's like you're collecting them. 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:14.240 We do collect them, yeah. 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:20.160 I mean there was there was never much division in your father's life between living and working. 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:26.160 I grew up in a family of medics where everything really was centered around work. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.160 I mean, do you have that same attitude? 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.519 Is it important that you're living cheek by jowl with the factory? 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:32.160 Yes. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:39.920 I mean, I I I mean it started off really with my father's first building um in in the 60s, and it was on a very small scale. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:48.879 He had a um uh a kitchen, and and out of the kitchen was his famous drawer bed, and the drawer bed would be pulled out from under the kitchen. 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:59.519 Um and that that was one end of the 60s building, and the bottom end of the 60s building was was this um lovely little workshop where I spent a lot of time as a as a child, really. 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:07.120 Um and he I suppose that's what pioneered this idea of living and working in the same environment. 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:18.560 But there was a sort of theory behind it, which was that um, you know, if you enjoy if you enjoy your work, you shouldn't necessarily be segregating it from your your your home. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:28.959 Now, what has sort of happened is that as our sort of um buildings have sort of evolved, the whole place has got a lot bigger and more buildings and more and more visitors. 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:36.879 And um so it I would say um keeping this sort of philosophy has got harder and harder and harder. 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:52.480 Um trying to sort of keep the tourists out of our garden and um you know and it it also does have the disadvantage that you're you're sort of you're sort of available um you know 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:56.160 So it's difficult not to get pulled in. 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:02.160 So i it it is it it my wife finds it quite difficult at times, I think, the segregation. 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:03.519 Or the lack of segregation. 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:05.920 Well the lack of yes, the lack of segregation. 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:06.639 Yes, yes. 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.680 Aaron Powell Do you have techniques when you stop work? 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:18.319 I mean, there's some people I know who, you know, if they work at home, and particularly this is a you know post-COVID thing, people have to develop ways to accommodate working from home. 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:27.120 And there's people I know who will leave the front door of a morning, go round the back of the house to the back door, do a day's work, and then take the opposite. 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:28.399 Do you have any ticks like that? 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:29.439 Oh dear. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:42.879 I mean, uh I that absolutely resonates with me because really if I um if I uh walk from from here up to the other end of the site, I always think of it as sort of running the gauntlet as to how many people will will will sort of grab me. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.519 And they might be people visiting as well. 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:50.639 So um I don't re I think perhaps I need to develop some sort of mechanism. 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:56.639 And and I I suppose with it being your own show, you always you're always wanting to help, aren't you? 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:08.000 You're always wanting to chat to someone who who wants to um have a talk, or if um one of my work colleagues has got something, I'm always sort of feel I should really be on hand to answer it. 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:12.240 So the answer is no, I'm not very good, and I need to develop a coping mechanism for that. 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:18.319 So just going back to the factory, so rather than a production line, you have uh a production circle. 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.199 Absolutely. 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:19.439 Yeah. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:21.040 What are the benefits to that? 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.839 Um that's a really good question. 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:31.839 I think other than using the um the I mean it does it does circulate using the round shape. 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:37.440 So the spiel comes in the door um and and it and it goes round the perimeter of the building. 00:08:37.519 --> 00:09:00.480 Its first stop is it's sort of blanked out with the presses, and then it runs round to the the next quarter and and it's uh then sort of linished and and polished, and then it runs um uh right round to the inspection department where it's inspected and and packed up, and then um it it it it then goes out the door as a as a the finished product. 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:04.159 So I we are using that that sort of round shape. 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:20.720 I mean, a circle is quite difficult to use because you you you it's sort of not a natural way, and I think we've managed to sort of use the circle um to its best best advantage, really. 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:27.279 And it does work and it does have a certain um flow to it that I perhaps you wouldn't get in a square building. 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:29.360 So we yeah, we do use it. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:38.480 I know my father was horrified when Michael said we wanted to build a

round building because he'd he'd always obviously manufactured in square shapes, not round. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:39.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:41.279 And you don't get too much round furniture. 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:43.440 You don't get too much round furniture. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:47.919 I mean, actually, we I've decided to have a huge, great redo of the factory. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:54.159 Um, and um uh we'd basically had had a as you do in any factory, you end up with a lot of stuff. 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.720 Um so we've sort of really thought, well, what's stuff and what machines do we really need? 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.879 And we've had a huge great clear out. 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.720 Um and it actually looks sort of it look it looks good again now. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.240 I'm quite proud of it again, whereas it was getting a little bit on the cluttered side. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:13.679 A bit like someone's loft, you know, you just you need to have a major clean every decade, I think. 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.600 So has the way you produce cutlery changed over the years? 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:22.080 I mean I'm wondering whether this revamp you're doing, is that going to change the way you you produce your work? 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.759 Well, I think we'll know where everything is, which is always good, isn't it? 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:37.600 Um, cutlery is quite interesting, really, in that um the the sort of techniques really haven't really changed from from the the turn of the century. 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:46.960 Um you know, it's the same real metal bashing techniques and forming and manipulating um of this slightly tricky material. 00:10:47.200 --> 00:11:01.039 Um I mean, yes, we do have a couple of computer-controlled machines, and we yes, we've got sort of um some lasers that do some fancy things, but generally speaking, it's the same, it's the same techniques really. 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.440 And you say that you've got bigger and bigger. 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.399 I mean, how many people do you have working for you now? 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:10.000 I think we've got fifty people in total. 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.559 So we're we're we're actually still quite small. 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:23.519 Um I mean, people are often amazed when I say that you know, the the scale of David Meller is what it is, you know, just three stores and um uh uh and a factory. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:33.679 Um I mean, we've got bigger in the remit of of the sort of um our own brand design, what that is, rather than just being knives and forks. 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:41.279 Um but we are still a sort of small family-run personal company, and I I sort of quite like that. 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.679 I don't really like the idea of sort of rolling it out into something bigger. 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:51.519 I I'm obsessive with control as well, so you you can't be controlling everything, can you, when you get too big? 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.919 Well, we're gonna get into control, I suspect. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.159 Uh it might be a family trait, I think. 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:04.000 I I've been reading the new edition of uh the David Meller Master Metal Worker book that was published earlier this year. 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.200 Yes, this new chapter by my old friend, former colleague Tularie Lloyd. 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:08.399 Brilliant, brilliant. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.240 I need to put a good word in for Tilery. 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:11.440 Yeah, well, she's great. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.559 And and one of the things that's striking is the longevity of your staff. 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:18.320 I mean, once they're through the door, these people don't seem to leave. 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.799 I mean, people have worked at your company for years. 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:31.440 Yeah, I mean, um fact um our factory manager, Andrew, he he started when he was um as an apprentice when he he was 16 um and and he's mid-sixties now. 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.519 So that's quite an innings, isn't it? 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:34.879 Um It's a decent knock. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:39.840 Um I I mean it's really the same with most, all my sort of people in my office. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:43.919 Um they've been with me for they've all been with me for over a decade. 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.799 So um and I think that's quite nice, isn't it? 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:51.600 You know, I mean, that people don't feel that they've got to change every two years. 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:53.440 Perhaps it's the buildings. 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:54.720 Perhaps they like the buildings. 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:56.960 Maybe it's got something to do with it, possibly the work. 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.240 I mean, inevitably people retire, need to be replaced. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.919 Uh is it easy to find younger people with the right skills? 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.039 Because I think I'm right in saying that your factory is not tailorist. 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.320 Everybody does everything in terms of making. 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:26.159 Yeah, no, so we have a sort of policy really, I suppose, to maintain quality that people um rotate, so they'll do um, you know, a couple of hours doing some buffing, and then they'll do a couple of hours doing some warehousing, and then they'll do a couple of hours doing some marking. 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.840 So they're they're all sort of trained to do to do everything. 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:37.759 I mean, we have a couple that are very specialist in that they're polishers, which is quite uh uh they just like polishing, so we leave them polishing. 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.080 Um, but it is quite difficult. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.080 Um, it is quite difficult to recruit. 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:53.200 I mean, we have um recently taken on a c a couple of younger people um because I'm sort of

mindful that that they're all sort of getting on a little bit and I need to sort of really start addressing that. 00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:13.519 Um, but I you know, I do think people um you'll get romantic people who have perhaps done jewellery design who think that they want to come and um work, but actually they want they don't want to do 200 of one operation, you know, they want to want to do it four times, and I can I can sort of see that. 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.879 Um so it is difficult trying to get people with the the the sort of the mindset. 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:34.320 Um and then the other thing that I suppose cutlery factories used to or used to sort of run on this thing called piecework, um, which which is uh where you're sort of paid per piece rather than paid per hour. 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:40.399 Um and we've always avoided that because to get the quality, it's part of the control thing again. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:44.879 To get the quality, you don't want people trying to make as polish as many teaspoons as they can. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.639 We want them to polish as teaspoons so they're polished well. 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:55.200 Um so um and that's how the Sheffield cutlery industry used to run. 00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:00.879 So often if we get people from the old Sheffield cutlery industry, they're used to that mentality of piecework. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:04.080 Because I mean you are intrinsically linked with the city of Sheffield. 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.480 I mean, you're what 12 or so miles away. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:11.039 I mean, I've I'm of an age when everybody's cutlery came from the city. 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.720 I mean, how's the city changed since you were a child? 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.000 Oh, radically. 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:22.559 I mean, I remember um the Don Valley, you'd go down there and it was just literally a wall of factories. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.639 I mean, quite intimidating, really. 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.159 Um, but quite spectacular at the at the same time. 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:38.000 Um I mean, to give you some sort of idea, in the 1950s there were over 300 cutlery factories in Sheffield, and now there's there's less than a handful. 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.600 I mean it's as as as bad as that, really. 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:43.039 There's hardly anyone doing it, really. 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.080 So are the skills you need still within the city walls, as it were? 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.879 Just diminishingly. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.480 But just, yeah. 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:54.000 I mean, we can train people. 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:59.440 If if they're good at um they're if they're makers, we could we can train people. 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:07.120 And we almost prefer to do that because they don't come with this uh knocking it out mentality of the piecework. 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:18.559 So Your father, you, the company, uh have between you, you've done so much, but you're best known uh for your cutlery, which is in the main made of stainless steel. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:23.120 Um this sounds obvious, but what are the properties of stainless steel? 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.200 Why is it so good for making knives and forks? 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:31.840 I mean, as you probably know, stainless steel was invented in in Sheffield, literally twelve miles down the road. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:46.720 Um and um it it it it it's an incredibly good material um specifically for uh I'm gonna say knives and forks, but um mainly spoons and forks. 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:55.360 Um 1810 stainless steel, the idea really, or the invention was to add chromium um in into steel. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:01.919 And the chromium um gives this amazing property of it not corroding. 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:08.640 So um it it's incredibly robust as a as a material. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.319 It's very difficult to work. 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.480 I mean it's rather a stubborn material. 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.400 Um it's not the it's not like silver, which is beautifully. 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:20.079 I mean, it's like working with some flowing material. 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:24.880 Stainless steel is a bit of a um uh well, I'm not allowed to sway. 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:26.880 Um I can. 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:27.839 It's a bit of a bugger to work. 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:36.799 Um however, once you have manipulated it, it's very permanent. 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:41.599 Um, you know, nothing really can happen to uh to a spoon or a fork. 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.920 It's it's it's there forever, really. 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.720 Um it it and I like that it's permanence once you've created it. 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:50.960 It's it it's there. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.880 Um just a little bit of education on the the knife. 00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:05.680 Um most uh cutlery that you'll pick up is actually made of the stained stain, same stainless steel as a spoon and a fork, which is the 1810 stainless steel. 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:09.599 Now that stainless steel um you can't sharpen very well. 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.000 So the manufacturers get around that by serrating an edge. 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:21.279 So any uh knife that you pick up that has got a serrated edge is actually not what my father will call a proper knife. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.079 Um, a proper knife is made of a high carbon stainless steel. 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:33.279 So it's it's on the way to being a kitchen knife, but it's not as far, it's not as has as much carbon as a kitchen knife. 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.720 And that stainless steel you can then heat treat. 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:42.559 And when you heat treat it, it changes the structure and allows you to sharpen it. 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.920 So good knives aren't serrated. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:47.039 I did not know that. 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:48.079 Many people

don't. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:48.640 Yeah. 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:55.599 And it dovetails with my next question, which is when you're designing cutlery, what are the things you need to think about? 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.319 Because they're incredibly intimate objects, aren't they? 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.680 I mean, obviously they're in your hand, but they also go into your mouth and rather unusually for a designed object. 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.039 You're using them three times a day, seven days a week. 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.200 So what do you what do you need to think about? 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:14.000 Well, I mean, I always think cutlery is a tool, and it's a tool that you you you use. 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.079 I mean, it's a bit like a chisel, and um, and the chisel's got to do a job, hasn't it? 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.000 Um it it um so it it it has to function. 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:27.200 Um that's my that's the main point of it, is it it has to function. 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:36.000 Um and for it to function well, um it it needs to be of a certain uh thickness and a certain weight. 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:47.759 So you probably aren't aware, but um a spoon bowl will actually taper from the bottom of the spoon bowl to the lip, which actually feels then nice in your mouth. 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:57.039 Um so there are all these little tiny um tiny points that you need to try to get into a into a design. 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.839 Um it's actually extremely difficult to design cutlery. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:08.720 Uh I I I much prefer to design a knife or a glass than uh than than uh than cutlery. 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:14.319 It's very, very difficult because it's it's about so many ingredients all put together. 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:20.240 You know, it's got to it's got to feel good in the hand, as you mentioned, it's got to feel good in the mouth. 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:27.680 Um it's it's got to um be of the of the right set or the right angle for it for it to work. 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:32.079 Um yeah, it is uh it's a nightmare. 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:38.799 I mean you mentioned you mentioned weight, and people tend to judge the qualities of cutlery on weight. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:46.480 But I I know that I remember I read uh uh Pride, a bona fide classic, which um David designed when he was still at the Royal College of Art. 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:47.519 Absolutely, yeah. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:49.599 Still our biggest selling design, amazing. 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:50.960 Extraordinary. 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.119 I mean, but it's quite light, I think I'm right in saying. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:54.079 Super light, yeah. 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:56.400 Well, what constitutes good cutlery in that case? 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.720 You've got me on a subject that I'm quite passionate about. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:20:59.119 Good. 00:20:59.200 --> 00:20:59.519 I'm glad. 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:00.880 That's the point of the podcast, Corin. 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:01.519 Yeah. 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:06.960 So um a a a good knife, um, you you want some width in the handle. 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:14.160 Um, and that width in the handle um is there for a purpose, it's so that you can grip the knife. 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:25.039 Um the best way of making a knife is with a hollow handle, and the hollow handle gives you the width without the weight. 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.599 So the Rolls-Royce way of making a kitchen knife is a handle. 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:44.400 If you think of the handle as an Easter egg, two halves which go together, and the blade, um, which is a separate piece, also made of a separate type of stainless steel, is then cemented into the handle. 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:52.960 So you've actually got three different components, in effect, all fixed together to create that balanced knife. 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.599 If you're not used to it, and you pick up a hollow handled knife, your brain will tell you this. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:08.640 Is very light, and you're associating the lightness with I'm not getting much stainless steel for my pounds. 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:10.160 Lack of material. 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.000 Exactly. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:20.880 Um, but actually, once you've used um pride, um, which is a a lovely example of it, it really is like eating the jewelry. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.319 I mean, it's so beautifully balanced and lovely to use. 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.799 And um no one actually ever brings it back. 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.039 So it's all about balance rather than weight. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:37.519 It's about balance, it's about fineness and balance and and having the uh the width of the in the handle where you need it without the weight. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:42.720 I mean, just sticking on pride for a moment, because it's what it's I was just doing some maths quickly. 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.680 It's more than 70 years old. 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.920 British dining habits have changed considerably since then. 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.119 So have your ranges had to evolve to suit our lifestyles? 00:22:53.519 --> 00:23:12.079 Yeah, I mean pride's um pride's quite an interesting one because um we I suppose I think in older periods of time there was this idea that you had this whole huge array of pieces. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.880 So you would you would have uh uh butter knives and you would have fish knives and forks and and and there was this huge great array. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:32.000 Um and I think it was a slightly way of showing off, you know, that you've got all these different ranges of different pieces that do different jobs, and I think things have simplified. 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:43.759 Um and um w I like the idea that you can buy what you want, and um we sell all our pieces individually as well, so you can buy what you want. 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:52.400 So um there's

the the traditional six-piece play set, um, but um a lot of people don't really have soup anymore, do they? 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.000 So you don't need that. 00:23:54.160 --> 00:24:07.920 Um and and I do think that it's good to be able to um uh design the play sets or the pieces of cutlery for the individual's needs, if that makes sense. 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:08.640 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:09.519 No, absolutely. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:10.319 Absolutely. 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:12.720 What's your process, uh Corinne? 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.279 How do you go about designing a new object? 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:16.400 Do you sketch first? 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:17.839 There is there are sketches in the book. 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.359 Yes, I do sketch. 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:24.480 I've started doing this new thing, which is um sort of sketching in my head. 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:31.039 Um I mean my process really normally is is doing some, you know, pretty bad sketches. 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:38.079 I mean the sketches are uh are there really just to they're not Picasso's, they're just to get the idea down. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.200 And I find it really annoying when people say, Well, you well, where are your sketches? 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:42.880 Why don't you keep your sketches? 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:48.880 I mean, they're not to go on the wall, they're they're there to just get the idea on a piece of paper. 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:59.680 So I'm sort of doing this thing where I'm I'm I'm I am literally starting to sketch in my head, and I've only really developed this over the last little while. 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:07.519 Um, so sketching is the process number one, really, to get some sort of initial thing down. 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.039 And then very quickly, I mentioned at the beginning that I'm in part of my studio. 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:18.880 My really my main studio is in the middle of the round building where I have my workbench. 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:32.240 And there I am making models um and prototypes, and I'm actually doing quite a lot of the design work really with my file and deciding do I need to take a little bit more weight out of that? 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.079 Do I need to thin that? 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:47.039 Um, and particularly cutlery is so sort of subject to to weight that you're wasting your time really doing a CAD model because there's no weight there. 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:58.000 So I start off really um sketch, then in the factory doing my sort of quite rough, crude, weighted models. 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:06.319 And then once I think I've got those right, um, I then give them to James, my long-standing um design assistant. 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.920 Um, and and and he's brilliant on the CAD side, whereas I don't know even how to switch the computer on. 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.079 So he then he then does all that. 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:22.880 Um, and then we'll rapid prototype out purely to show what we've got in the computer is correct. 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:25.599 So it's quite old-fashioned, really, I suppose. 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:33.440 My my way of it's very hands-on, it's very, you know, my my file and my pencil are doing the decisions. 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:39.519 Um, the the the high-tech bit just comes later on to actually, in effect, help make the tools. 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.240 We're into October. 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.039 I hope you all enjoyed our big London fair last month. 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:52.960 However, like a shark, we keep moving forward at material matters, and I wanted to alert you to the fact that our annual conference is just around the corner. 00:26:53.200 --> 00:27:02.400 After its successful launch at the Bank of England last year, Assemble returns with a stellar lineup of panel discussions, quickfire presentations, and keynote lectures. 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:11.279 Speakers confirmed so far include New York-based curator, writer, and historian Glenn Adamson, founder of the MA Textile Futures course at Central St. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:20.799 Martin's, Professor Carol Collett, Not Placolfa co-founder Rodrigo Garcia Gonzalez, and legendary music director turned hemp farmer Steve Barron. 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:35.599 Meanwhile, there'll be a series of snappy 10-minute presentations from a set of emerging designers, including Jacob Marks on working with pine resin, and Carbon Cells Elizabeth Lee on producing plastic-free carbon sequestering foam from Biochar. 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:43.839 And if that wasn't enough, delegates will also have the chance to watch me record a Material Matters podcast with British design legend Jay Osgoby. 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:48.880 The event will be held on the 19th of November at Pentland Brands HQ in Farringdon. 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:56.960 Early bird tickets are£114, and that's£95 plus VAT, and are available until the 19th of October. 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:02.079 A limited number of student tickets are available for£72, and that's including VAT. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:10.079 To buy your ticket now, go to the link I've put in the blurb that comes with this podcast, or visit our website, which is materialmatters.design. 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.279 That's materialmatters.design. 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:21.279 I'm fascinated by family firms, and I've spoken to a few over the course of this podcast. 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.720 Um we did one on Ercol, for example, which springs to mind. 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.680 Um but that's a few generations old. 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.880 You were the first generation to take over the company. 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:32.000 Is that a pressure? 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:34.559 It's what I enjoy doing, I suppose. 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.759 So if you enjoy doing something, perhaps it's not so much pressure. 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.039 I mean, I'm quite lucky. 00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.680 I

can sort of go, well, what shall I design this week? 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:55.839 And and I think, you know, well, I'll I'll um perhaps I'll do a range of glasses, you know, so I can sort of um I think perhaps I don't worry too much about the pressure, I just sort of get on with the next design, really. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.599 So it's something you were always destined to do, in other words. 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:00.240 Yeah. 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:10.000 I mean I started off as a little boy, sort of going down the stairs of the the sort of drawbread house and um and and going in and you know making little model boats. 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:18.240 And um I I I f I find myself quite at home with my my machines and my files, and I I I love doing that. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:27.119 I mean it's just nice that people do seem to appreciate what I've created, which I'm always slightly worried that, you know, I'm slightly thinking, well, is anyone going to buy this? 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.400 Um but but but yeah, yeah. 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:44.559 I also sort of I I like I do like creating things that are practical and and hopefully might change people's lives, you know, something that they can use and and perhaps there's a bit of me in it that they're taking home. 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:54.799 I mean, it's an interesting one because obviously you've bought your own products to the company, but but you're also in many regards kind of like the custodian. 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:57.200 Yeah, you know I sort of among the legacy. 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:00.480 I'm not frightened of changing things. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:11.839 I mean, we've I'm just we're just launching an a a new range of cutlery, and obviously it would have been very easy to have just relaunched one of my father's from the 70s, but I actually thought I could make it better. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.079 So I sort of fiddled with it for literally four years I've been fiddling with this. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:17.920 And I think I have made it better. 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:19.839 I think he'd probably be impressed. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:27.599 So I'm not frightened of of doing my own thing, and I don't think you just want to keep doing relaunches, it's just boring, isn't it? 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.240 Do you get bored of people like me asking about your father? 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:30.880 No. 00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:31.440 No. 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:33.759 Good at all. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:36.319 It's part of me, isn't it? 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:46.880 Because I mean, one of the many interesting things about him was the number of these extraordinary objects he designed. 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:53.599 I mean, again, if you're if you're my age, they're pieces that were part of your everyday life. 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:57.200 Street lights, bins, bus shelters, outdoor seating. 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:01.039 I mean, do you think of him every time you pull up some traffic lights? 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:05.759 No, I just think, oh God, not another red light. 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:09.759 Um I don't think I actually do, you know. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.839 No, I don't think I do. 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:12.720 No. 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:13.599 They're just there. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:16.160 I mean, that was what was so good about that design, wasn't it? 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.240 I mean, it it's just there, isn't it? 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:20.960 No one no one thinks who designed the traffic lights, do they? 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.160 No, literally never. 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.839 I mean, to me, that is good design. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:25.519 I mean, good design you don't notice. 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.440 I mean, it's a bit like good cutlery. 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.240 Um, you shouldn't really notice it, but you always notice bad cutlery when it digs into your hand, doesn't it? 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.519 And and you can't hold it properly. 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.839 Was it easy to work with, Corey? 00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.079 Uh he was quite a taskmaster in his Sheffield way. 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:46.640 Um, I mean, he was extremely determined to get things right, no matter what it took. 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:55.440 So sometimes I would be sort of I did quite a few of the um uh of actually some of the cutlery designs with him. 00:31:55.599 --> 00:32:08.160 Um and I mean that taught me quite well because you know he was so determined that we'd be sort of filing at sort of eight o'clock at night and um he he would tell me if something something was rubbish. 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:08.640 Yeah. 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:09.599 Yeah. 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.680 And how did you respond to that? 00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:13.920 Um well, probably not very well at 18. 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:18.079 You'd probably just you know, a bit disgruntled, but you'd you know, have another go. 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:20.240 Um I think it did good, all in all. 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.599 Yeah, seemed to go okay. 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:30.640 I mean the the word that crops up on a regular basis when I was reading the book and doing other research, and you've already mentioned it, is um control. 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:46.559 And in some ways, he seemed to narrow his design scope and concentrate on cutlery, so he had power over every element of the product, you know, from design to manufacture, right down obviously to retail too. 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:57.519 But it does make you wonder, it made me wonder anyway, whether he ever regretted giving up that ability to shape the aesthetic of an entire country, which is kind of what he was doing at one point. 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.079 Yeah, I know that's interesting, isn't it, really? 00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:23.440 Because he did um he did sort of move off from this this sort of idea that he had that he could single-handedly redesign the whole street scene um i

in the UK, which I mean he i i i going back to the 70s, he sort of had done to a certain extent, because every every bus stop was was my father's and every traffic light was my father's and every bin was my father's. 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.839 It's incredibly evocative going back through the book. 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:26.400 It's amazing. 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:28.160 Yeah, and there's some amazing things. 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.240 Um and the hacksaw is a brilliant one. 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:35.119 I love that, the the Eclipse hacksaw, because you can still buy that hacksaw today. 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.920 Um and it and it and it hasn't changed. 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.359 Um he was very like me, that once he'd done something, he was on to the next thing. 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:50.240 Um and and and I'm very much the same that once I finished the design, um, well, that's done. 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:52.000 Um, right, what's next? 00:33:52.160 --> 00:34:09.440 You know, and the design was wider because you have to remember he was um interested in building, so he was creating things on a on a bigger scale as well, um, like the Ram building and the big Butler's Wharf building. 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:15.679 Um and and I I think I've taken that on too because I I really love the built environment. 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:34.239 And I think that's why I like retail as well, because um I like to design not just the the teapot, but I need to design the shelf that the teapot is is sitting on, and I also need to design the label that tells you about the teapot and the instructions that go in the teapot and the box, you know. 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:38.800 So so that yeah, I I just love that, you know. 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:45.119 So it's obviously you know, you do have this same desire for complete control. 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:53.840 But since you took over the running of the company, you've worked in glass and ceramics, for example, which I'm guessing aren't made in Sheffield. 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.960 So you are willing to let go a little bit on occasion. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.400 Oh yes, yeah, no. 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:08.559 I mean, um I think um really i i yeah, it's quite interesting the whole sort of manufacturing scene, I think, um, and how that has has sort of changed. 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:15.920 You know, there were all these factories in Sheffield, and you could you could go down and could probably get some teapots made in Sheffield in 1960. 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.679 Um, but really that type of manufacturing has just sort of moved. 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:27.920 So um my I love um I love finding makers, and these makers really are literally around the world. 00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:38.719 And um I think you just have to go, well, look, you know, that that's that that's where the maker is, and not get too worried about about the the country that it's made in made in. 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:50.079 And for me, the most important thing is is is is the quality, is actually finding someone that can actually realise um a design I've done of some glass. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:36:00.719 Um and um if that takes me to Thailand, as it has done, and I've found this lovely little firm with um 35 people in that can realise my glass, that's great. 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.760 Um it's just a a different maker. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:14.159 Um and and um one of my one of my sort of real loves is actually finding makers that can then realise my my designs. 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:14.960 I love that. 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:23.679 So it's not just because I mean you Mello has always had a reputation uh for promoting British craft, but it's it's now a global concern. 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:25.760 Absolutely, no, absolutely. 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:32.000 I mean really I I I I find people and and those people might be in Italy. 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:36.800 Um uh they might be like my glass people um in in Thailand. 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.119 Um and and I I just love it. 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:44.320 The challenge of trying it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, you know, trying to find a good maker. 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:52.880 Um and gradually over the last 20 years I've built up um a little collection of perhaps 10 little makers. 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:59.519 Um, and those makers have really helped me um realize all my all my sort of designs. 00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:08.239 I mean, I had to change my philosophy really because we with the cutlery designs, we've talked about pride, which is 1950. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.159 Well, we've got we've got 1950s, we've got 1960s, we've got 1980s, we've got 1990s. 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:28.239 Um but as a designer that gave me a bit of a problem in that, well, we can't really keep on doing more and more designs because I also have a philosophy that we shouldn't discontinue anything. 00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:35.920 So um, if you've got a philosophy that you should you don't discontinue, um, what do I design? 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.320 So I had to sort of find things to entertain me, really. 00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:42.159 Fair enough. 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:43.519 Fair enough. 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:45.840 I mean, your childhood must have been fascinating. 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:57.199 We've talked about your father, but your mother was Fiona McCarthy, the design writer and critic who penned groundbreaking books on William Morris, Eric Gill, where she revealed his sexual depravity. 00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:58.400 Absolutely, yeah. 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.800 She got in terrible trouble for that, didn't she? 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:09.280 Well, his previous his previous biographer did find out exactly and chose to ignore it, which is absolutely remarkable. 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:15.760 Uh and the one I read last was um Walter Grofius, the founder of the Bauhaus. 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.679 Uh as a child, did you have a sense

of of what good design was? 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:21.920 Presumably you were just surrounded by it. 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:27.280 Oh, yeah, no, I mean it was um it was just a design party, really, I suppose. 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.639 I mean, they had so many amazing sort of connections. 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:40.400 So um we would always go off and um and stay with Jack Pritchard um in Blytheborough, who um was one of the founders of ISOCon. 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:46.480 Um so I spent, you know, I was six years old and I was sitting in the long chair. 00:38:46.559 --> 00:39:02.239 And um, I remember he had this amazing pavilion, and my sister and myself used to go and have pillow fights in the pavilion, and there was this uh mobile hanging around that we'd often hit, and it's only looking back on it that I remember it actually was a culture that we were hitting. 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:14.800 So um, and you know, there were people who would always come up, so Ken Grange would arrive in his Ferrari, um, and all run outside. 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.639 So, yeah, I mean it was lovely, really. 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:25.039 Um, and um they had a fantastic, fantastic eclectic mix of sort of artists and architects and designers and writers. 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:26.960 Um, so I think I was lucky with that. 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:28.800 What were you like at school, Corin? 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:30.719 Um terrible, absolutely terrible. 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:31.519 Why is that? 00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.880 I I I wasn't terribly in disability, uh, disobedient. 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:50.400 Um I I just wasn't really very good at uh at writing and and maths, and um and and I really used to spend all my or any time I could in the in the art department, where I think many of your other podcasts are are similar, aren't they? 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:51.280 Quite a few, yeah. 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.400 That's true. 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.960 I wasn't very good at writing. 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:58.719 So I sort of did what did what came easy. 00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:04.239 Which I mean, which is um must have given your English teacher a bit of a start, bear in mind who your mother was. 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.519 I I guess they thought you were probably going to go one of either two directions. 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:17.519 It's interesting looking back, actually, because um I don't know if my mother was really worried that I was so bad at um at writing and she was such a star. 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:22.800 I I think she really did sort of just leave me to my own sort of devices. 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:37.599 Um and um I I perhaps I mean my father was equally bad at writing, and perhaps she sort of could see the direction that I was a hopeless cause, really, and just let him carry on making his model boats. 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:41.119 Were you always going to go to Kingston design school? 00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:43.599 I mean, not necessarily Kingston, but just design school. 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.480 I was always going to go to design school, I think. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:41:03.440 Um yeah, I mean I I did um I had quite an interesting education because I I had um I I went to a a huge Sheffield Comprehensive Um and then sixth form I was moved to um uh the institution of Radley College. 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:12.239 Um so I arrived as as the sort of um the the the token boy from the north um and and from the comprehensive. 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.000 So is that Radley as in the the top public school, Radley, right? 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.039 Yes, yes, the sort of Eaton Eaton equivalent. 00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:27.039 So I sort of arrived with my spiky hair and um and and um artistic views into this um very rigid institution. 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.719 But I I I did um I I I had a lovely time. 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:34.880 I did uh just art and design, which was one of the reasons why why I went there. 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:48.000 Um but I did quite like this mix of two sides of education, really, of this sort of um, you know, proper big Sheffield State School, um, and and then um you know this total other scene. 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.000 And I enjoyed them both, really. 00:41:50.320 --> 00:42:00.480 Um, but it was really studying there, where I had a fantastic art art master, um, this amazing, um, very, very camp American man. 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:09.199 Um, and um, and I suppose that's when I began to sort of really find my feet, really, in in in doing my A levels. 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:16.559 So then I um I I thought, well, yeah, no, I I I think really I need product and furniture is what I'm interested in. 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:18.079 And and then I went to Kingston. 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:32.239 I mean, we talked about pressure before, but when you're learning something, was there a pressure when you'd go somewhere like Kingston with the Mellon name and you know, people like Terence Conran and Stephen Bailey saying he's the greatest British designer of the last century? 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:36.880 I mean, did you feel perhaps I I don't think I did at the time. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:46.320 Perhaps I'm just rather rather just sort of just obsessed with what I'm doing, so I don't really look around too much as I mean, perhaps I I don't really care that much what people think. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:47.840 You know, I just get on with it. 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:52.079 Um I d I I think people were all quite quite nice to me. 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.760 I don't think I remember having any I mean actually I had a great time at Kingston, really. 00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:56.480 Fair enough. 00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:58.239 I uh it's it yeah. 00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:07.519 I was giving you time to think then, but I I I'm not sure that I think that was the end of the the uh No, no, yeah, yeah, no, that's it. 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:14.159 I mean I I suppose you know I I I I I

am a Sheffield person, the Sheffield people just get on with the job, you know. 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:24.320 So I'd gone there to I'd gone there to sort of design things and I was just immerse in designing um taps for ideal standard, and you know, um uh it was great. 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:24.960 I loved it. 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:26.079 I really liked it. 00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:32.559 And your graduation kind of installation, didn't you design a like a like have a shop or something? 00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:34.000 Yes, this is what you see. 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.239 So the retail element of your family's personality coming out. 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:47.920 Yeah, I I I um I designed a market stall um and uh made of made of made of plywood and um bits of press metal. 00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.360 Um and I remember at my degree show, it was an absolute disaster. 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:53.760 I obviously hadn't got the hook quite right. 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:58.159 And um the whole thing came crashing down with lemons all over the degree show. 00:43:58.239 --> 00:43:59.360 I do remember that. 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:09.840 And then you joined the architecture practice, York Rosenberg Marshall, Y M after leaving Kingston, which is an interesting move. 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:12.960 I mean, was it was there an interest at working at scale in that case? 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:20.639 Yeah, I th I think it I mean it was the time when the the I mean my it was a time when everyone got lots of jobs. 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:27.519 You know, you would you'd have your degree show and then you'd have sort of people would leave cards there, didn't they, saying, come and work for us, you know. 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:33.280 Gosh, um I do feel for students now because you know it the times have changed so much, haven't they? 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:34.639 And it's difficult for them. 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:42.159 But we were in the sort of um, you know, the time when everything was booming and and everyone wanted you to come and work to them. 00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:45.599 Um I think I liked the idea that it was real. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:49.199 I was just quite keen to actually do something that was real. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:56.079 I mean, I was very mindful that everything you design at college is not real, it's all theoretical, isn't it? 00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:04.400 Um and I I I was put in the um the the sort of furniture department, which I have to say was a bit boring. 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:10.960 Um I I was sort of drawing up rather um boring bits of furniture. 00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:18.960 But then I got moved to some um art our architecture departments and I was designing um bits of Angel Tube Station. 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:20.960 Um so I found that quite good. 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:22.480 Um I thought that was quite fun. 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.360 Wasn't there also baggage handling equipment at Gatwick Airport? 00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.599 Yes, yes, yes. 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.000 Um I'm sure it's not there. 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.480 I don't actually know if it ever was there. 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:38.960 Um I got frustrated after a while because I wasn't making anything. 00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:40.559 I was just drawing. 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:48.559 And um and and I I I I think it was the lack of control I found rather rather frustrating. 00:45:48.960 --> 00:46:00.159 Um and I I I wasn't using my files, and I I did find that a bit um it was a bit I was part of a cog, you know, I was a little cog in this machine. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:07.119 Um and I I think I needed more, I needed more, more hands-on, um, which I certainly got with my next job. 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.519 Which was going back to your family firm, or was there was there somewhere in between? 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:29.119 Well, that was going back to my well, I I remember the call from my father saying that he just bought this um this grain warehouse in in Butler's Wharf near Towerbridge, and um did I want to come along and um work with our or or manage our little team on that? 00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:34.880 So um, yeah, that was uh that really was quite hands-on with all the Irish builders. 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:44.079 So so was there a moment then when you you thought to yourself, yes, it's it's I'm it's time to go and work at my father's company? 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:46.000 I think it was just the call. 00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:51.119 And I and I was at the time frustrated doing these things I couldn't really quite connect with. 00:46:51.280 --> 00:47:05.280 Um and uh yeah, I I I thought it was really exciting, um, you know, going and working on um on this slightly crazy um uh uh yeah, building. 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:10.320 Um and I mean it really was I mean, uh you wouldn't be able to do it now in this day and age. 00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:20.400 Um so we were we were there and we were building all the um all the concrete shuttering um because my father wanted to make sure all the shuttering was right. 00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:32.880 So to get the shuttering right, um myself and our little team uh were building the shuttering, and then the Irish um builders were then filling the shuttering up with the concrete. 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:37.840 Um and this went on um up six floors of warehouse. 00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:39.440 So great. 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:50.000 That much cutlery, personally. 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:54.000 There's a a set called Chelsea, another entitled Line Linear. 00:47:54.400 --> 00:48:00.639 Um was it obvious what you uh aside from cutlery, what you were going to design for the company? 00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:25.119 I'm just thinking back because I I mean the Butler's Wharf build building project was there was a lot of design in that because it was detailing all the interior of the shop um and um making making all that and and um so so actually that was actually and uh this building was

sort of vast even by by by our sort of standards. 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.800 And then we had this um big apartment at the the top, which was going to be my parents. 00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.599 Um so there was all that to design and build. 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:40.079 So it was quite a I mean it went on for years, this sort of designing and building this this Shad Thames. 00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:48.800 Right, but but when you when you got kind of Shad Thames is over, you're back in the factory, and oh and also when you when you took over. 00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:50.159 Oh, yes. 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:56.000 So you you don't discontinue things, you've got a lot of cutlery ranges that people can choose from. 00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:01.519 So was there a kind of decision of of what like you you don't do cushions, for example. 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:02.639 That's not what you do. 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:04.159 Oh, I can't do cushions. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:05.199 No, no, no, no. 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.519 I mean, I I I love materials. 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:16.559 I mean, I I I I was I thought you were going to ask you what what would my favorite material was, and I was I've been thinking about it, and I don't know if I have a favourite material. 00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:21.519 And my answer was going to be well, I'll just choose the most appropriate material for what I'm designing. 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.639 Um so I it's always best when people interview themselves for it. 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:26.719 They've generally got better questions than me, you know. 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:38.800 Um so so I I suppose I I do have a genuine in I love materials and I love I love making and manufacturing and what you can get out of a material. 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:42.480 Um I I find that incredibly interesting. 00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:51.760 Um and um I suppose if you have your own stores, the good thing is you can you can really go, well, what shall I do next? 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.079 And and that's sort of what I did. 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:57.599 And um I I started designing knives. 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.079 That's sort of what I because they're they're sort of light cutlery. 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:01.679 Well, there are a lot of knives towards the. 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:06.079 Knives are quite easy actually compared with a knife and a fork. 00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:09.199 So I I started I started doing knives. 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:13.920 Um, and then um I thought, well, perhaps I could do some some some glass. 00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:28.000 Um so um I started on finding out who who would be able to make some glass, um, and we found um some glass blowers in Poland, and I I I did some glass, and um, and and it just went from there, really. 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.440 Um and and it's been really really good. 00:50:31.599 --> 00:51:01.280 I mean, I think it's been good because cutlery is quite narrow, and you don't purchase cutlery too often in your in your um in your life, and I wanted to broaden out really um what the company was, and I wanted to broaden it out from just being knives and forks to this wider, wider collection um of pieces really using um different materials. 00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:07.760 So I embrace, I love materials and I embrace materials, but cushions are absolutely outside my remit. 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:15.280 Well, I was very intrigued to learn when uh the Meller store first opened on Sloane Street that you were selling screws. 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:16.639 Oh yes, yes. 00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:23.440 It was it was David Meller Ironmongers, it's it started off as which you know it you could almost do that again now, couldn't you? 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:24.079 Um, you know. 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:25.119 Well, I think you could. 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:25.679 You could. 00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:27.280 I think you could do it now, you know. 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:33.920 You could do a smart I mean I suppose there are people who have who have sort of done that um in in London, haven't they? 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.800 Um, you know, quite quite successfully, really. 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:42.159 Um so um, but it really was very much 1960s, right? 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:48.880 Um we had a friend who opened a hat store down the road, and then you know, we we opened this ironmonger store. 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:55.039 And it was an ironmonger store that in right in the middle of Chelsea, you could go along and you could buy your doorknobs. 00:51:55.119 --> 00:52:00.559 Um, but also you could also buy a piece of my father's handmade silver as well. 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:04.079 You could buy a teapot that he'd hand raised in in in, you know. 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:13.039 So I mean it was just this crazy mix of um of of you know late 60s London, anything goes, you know. 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:14.159 Lovely, lovely. 00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:19.199 I mean how it paid the rent, I don't know, but I don't think rents in those days were what they are now, you know. 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:20.800 So no, I don't think they were. 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:22.239 I don't think they were. 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:25.599 Are we coming to the end of our our time, Corin? 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:26.800 Gosh, already. 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:28.800 I was thinking, how can I how can I do an hour? 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:29.920 It's flying past. 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:33.519 I mean, what's the future for you and David Meller? 00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:34.639 You have two boys. 00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:36.800 Are they interested in joining the business? 00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:39.920 Will there be a a next generation of of Meller? 00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:41.920 Well, I think so, yeah. 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:48.079 I mean my um my older boy is constant he's he's um just done the first part of architecture. 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:53.039 His he's constantly um questioning uh Manchester. 00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:57.280 Um and then he's doing going to do an MA in um sort of design management. 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:03.199 So I'm getting this constant barrage and questioning of why I've done this and and would I not be better doing that. 00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:09.039 So I can I can see that I can see that he might be arriving on the scene. 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:15.920 Um and my um my my younger son Morris, who's 15, um, he's very, very keen on design. 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.840 So hopefully we might um we might be able to continue as we have done. 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:22.880 And in the near future, it sounds like there's more cutlery on the horizon. 00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:24.239 Yeah, new cutlery, yeah. 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:29.039 So this is this new design called Pavilion that I I have been fiddling with for four years. 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:33.840 So I finally finished fiddling and and that's that's coming out right at the very end of the year. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:39.840 So um that was the one where I decided not to relaunch my father's 70s design and make it better. 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:42.800 So we shall see if people think I've made it better or not. 00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.239 Well, we will find out at the back end of this year. 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:48.159 Corinne, thank you so much for your time. 00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:49.360 I thoroughly enjoyed that. 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:50.079 Lovely. 00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.119 Well, thank you very much. 00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.199 And um, yeah, thank you. 00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.559 To find out more about Corin and David Meller, go to DavidMellardesign.com. 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:08.480 You can also go to our website to hear other podcasts that I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to buy a ticket to our conference, Assemble with Material Matters. 00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:11.199 That's materialmatters.design. 00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:13.599 Material matters.design. 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:14.639 One more thing. 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:21.440 It would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters. 00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:30.719 For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world. 00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:36.639 Material Matters is a completely independent concern, and any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated. 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:44.639 Ultimately, you'll be helping to take the message of the importance of materials, skill, craft, and design to a whole new audience. 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:46.880 Thanks very much for listening.