رونوشت کامل How to Break Growth Barriers thru Trust + Empowerment with Jon Kragel

going to happen? 00:04:29.259 --> 00:04:31.882 And so the school, we were in an elementary school, kick us out. 00:04:31.901 --> 00:05:05.577 I had a partnership with a local coffee shop and so they gave me a key I would go in off hours and they had we tried to do this whole teaching TV thing but their TV because it was a restaurant or a coffee shop was too high and so I would actually stand on broken milk crates out of frame and we'd try to record the message and then our musicians were primarily college students that went home for spring break that couldn't come back and so every week we would actually send and our worship director was in Iowa at the time And so he would record from Iowa. 00:05:05.617 --> 00:05:07.120 We had a drummer from Hawaii. 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:08.180 We had someone else in Arizona. 00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:10.523 They would all record on their phones, send it to him. 00:05:10.543 --> 00:05:13.427 He would mix it, send it to our people in there. 00:05:13.726 --> 00:05:18.072 My dad would record the sermon with me and then he would edit it and put it all together and we'd upload it every week. 00:05:18.732 --> 00:05:22.076 And so we did that for about eight months to try to survive. 00:05:22.456 --> 00:05:26.761 And dude, can I just camp on the COVID catastrophe for just a second? 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:33.348 The fact that you're standing on the COVID crates because you are not tall enough is insane. 00:05:33.367 --> 00:05:37.355 It If you guys don't know, when you're like six, what? 00:05:37.576 --> 00:05:37.997 Six, five. 00:05:38.517 --> 00:05:38.718 Yes. 00:05:39.298 --> 00:05:40.540 You're like basketball player height. 00:05:40.762 --> 00:05:42.846 And like the world closes down. 00:05:42.906 --> 00:05:44.788 Like I can't reach the TV. 00:05:44.949 --> 00:05:46.052 That's just insane. 00:05:46.954 --> 00:05:48.857 So right out of the gate, I think. 00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:53.252 if you're a church planter, I want you to just imagine going through John's situation. 00:05:53.273 --> 00:05:57.317 Uh, John planted right before, um, COVID. 00:05:57.697 --> 00:05:59.678 So that, that in and of itself is incredible. 00:05:59.718 --> 00:06:09.086 The fact that, uh, you guys survived most of the church planters and many of the pastors leading existing churches that I knew, uh, closed down never to open their doors again. 00:06:09.107 --> 00:06:50.699 And so the fact that you reopen, I mean, that was one of the reasons that when I traveled down to be part of vision, Arizona, coming down from Portland, they were like, you have to meet John Craig goal and you have to see his church because they accomplish one of the feats that very few churches do and being at that what was that like to have only what a year and a half under your belt really well yeah we we've just seen God move so much through that so we felt God lead for example to double down and make a difference in our community so we decided to prayerfully partner they've

changed names now I forget what their new name is at the time they were called RIP Medical Debt there's a company that buys medical debt. 00:06:51.074 --> 00:06:52.615 for pennies on the dollar. 00:06:53.435 --> 00:06:57.519 And then instead of charging it like a creditor does, forgives the debt. 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:10.089 And so that first month after COVID hit and everything shut down, we said, you know what, let's take everything that came in, like half of what came in that month, and let's make a double down on our community that we're going to love them. 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:12.632 And so we partnered. 00:07:12.653 --> 00:07:15.214 They said, how many families qualify for this in our zip code? 00:07:15.375 --> 00:07:16.675 And they said 700 families. 00:07:17.317 --> 00:07:18.937 And we said, all right, we'll take it. 00:07:19.177 --> 00:07:19.819 And they're like, take what? 00:07:19.838 --> 00:07:20.839 I said, we'll take all the families. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:29.173 And so we wrote a check for$13,000 for a church that we didn't know if we were going to exist. 00:07:29.653 --> 00:07:33.319 And they had no place to meet to pay off the debt for families that we were never going to meet. 00:07:33.980 --> 00:07:37.607 But this is how good God is, is that we prayed over it with our leadership. 00:07:37.627 --> 00:07:39.108 We said, okay, I think God's calling us to do this. 00:07:39.189 --> 00:07:40.130 Let's do it. 00:07:40.170 --> 00:07:41.913 We wrote the check on a Tuesday night. 00:07:42.562 --> 00:07:48.848 Wednesday morning, woke up to an email from one of the Converge national representatives. 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:54.396 And so we're part of Vision Arizona and then Converge is the national network that we're a part of. 00:07:54.836 --> 00:07:58.079 And they said, hey, we know COVID is hitting church plants especially hard. 00:07:58.521 --> 00:08:00.382 So we're going to send you a$10,000 grant. 00:08:00.682 --> 00:08:01.684 Come on. 00:08:01.723 --> 00:08:06.149 So God replenished our generosity within 12 hours. 00:08:06.529 --> 00:08:07.271 Unbelievable. 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:08.391 To make the difference in the community. 00:08:08.651 --> 00:08:10.153 I didn't know that part of it. 00:08:10.372 --> 00:08:13.675 So since that point, we're like, okay, God's got us, right? 00:08:13.855 --> 00:08:15.697 And so we started doing online. 00:08:15.737 --> 00:08:18.680 We started trying to make the difference in people's lives, helping, right? 00:08:18.740 --> 00:08:19.360 Bringing meals. 00:08:20.161 --> 00:08:21.523 Kids ministry got creative. 00:08:22.023 --> 00:08:28.949 Instead of like those HelloFresh prepared for you meals, we did that for kids devotionals and lessons. 00:08:29.529 --> 00:08:32.032 And so we dropped them off at people's houses and things like that. 00:08:32.412 --> 00:08:34.354 You were the HelloFresh of kids devotionals. 00:08:34.374 --> 00:08:35.195 Of kids devotionals. 00:08:35.294 --> 00:08:36.155 Our kids

director did that. 00:08:36.176 --> 00:08:36.495 It was awesome. 00:08:36.495 --> 00:08:41.701 And then so the schools wouldn't open up to us, but we wanted to gather. 00:08:41.802 --> 00:08:42.783 We were feeling the sense to gather. 00:08:42.883 --> 00:08:45.807 And so the only place that would open up to us was a comedy club and bar. 00:08:47.388 --> 00:08:48.249 Let's go. 00:08:49.211 --> 00:08:53.054 The comedy club, bar, and sometimes Caribbean music church. 00:08:53.315 --> 00:08:53.796 There it is. 00:08:53.975 --> 00:08:54.476 Yep. 00:08:54.496 --> 00:08:59.601 And so we did church out of a bar for about 10 months. 00:08:59.722 --> 00:09:00.182 Yeah, you did. 00:09:01.124 --> 00:09:01.644 Yeah, you did. 00:09:03.186 --> 00:09:03.726 It was great. 00:09:03.886 --> 00:09:05.990 We had, you know... 00:09:06.785 --> 00:09:10.990 I felt licensed to tell a lot more jokes in the sermons, you know, like when in Rome. 00:09:12.734 --> 00:09:14.215 But did you drink during your sermons? 00:09:14.696 --> 00:09:15.898 I mean, communion was fun. 00:09:16.818 --> 00:09:17.318 You know what I mean? 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:19.581 And we kept the two drink minimum. 00:09:20.023 --> 00:09:22.605 So that helped with the offering. 00:09:24.307 --> 00:09:25.830 Well, I got Southern Baptist roots. 00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:28.313 So that's what that God found that really ironic. 00:09:28.333 --> 00:09:28.994 And I don't even drink. 00:09:29.033 --> 00:09:31.457 So, you know, running out of a bar was great. 00:09:31.498 --> 00:09:31.658 No. 00:09:31.738 --> 00:09:34.822 So, no, but we didn't. 00:09:35.265 --> 00:09:36.947 We did have taps on the wall. 00:09:38.129 --> 00:09:44.395 True story, we did have one drunk guy stumble into the service and start shouting God words during the sermon. 00:09:44.876 --> 00:09:47.419 And so I was preaching and he would just go, Yahweh. 00:09:47.460 --> 00:09:54.347 The fact that he was a drunkard and knew Yahweh is everything to me. 00:09:54.467 --> 00:09:54.847 That's great. 00:09:55.249 --> 00:09:56.269 He needs Jesus. 00:09:56.450 --> 00:09:56.809 He does. 00:09:57.250 --> 00:09:59.833 And so then we, God... 00:10:00.354 --> 00:10:04.236 you know, going through all the protocols, all that stuff, um, did two services. 00:10:04.317 --> 00:10:09.822 We're literally cleaning up the floors from the night before stuff and removing all the restaurant stuff out of the way. 00:10:09.841 --> 00:10:14.485 So we can have a kid's ministry of some semblance of something and then a service and God was blessing it. 00:10:14.725 --> 00:10:16.467 And so, uh, we started to grow. 00:10:16.488 --> 00:10:20.091 It wasn't, it was a fun season, but not the most practical, obviously. 00:10:20.652 --> 00:10:25.054 And so when schools opened up, we went back to the schools and, and started to grow there too. 00:10:25.255 --> 00:10:31.341 And then God opened up the door a couple of years for us to get into our own space and, uh, and, and, It's been exciting. 00:10:31.381 --> 00:10:35.913 So we went from one service to two service, looking at potentially going to three services this fall. 00:10:36.092 --> 00:10:37.857 And so God's just been on the move. 00:10:37.957 --> 00:10:42.708 And just time and time again, like that donation day, he just keeps showing up. 00:10:42.908 --> 00:10:51.923 And that's what keeps me showing up, is knowing that if we show up, God's going to show off and that we can trust in that. 00:10:52.365 --> 00:10:56.754 And so it's just to see God come through time and time again, it's been amazing. 00:10:57.336 --> 00:11:03.107 Dude, I want to highlight just a few things that you said there and really dive into your superpower. 00:11:04.514 --> 00:11:09.279 One of the things that you just walked through is that you've been in what, three or four different facilities now? 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:09.821 Yeah. 00:11:10.162 --> 00:11:10.802 Yeah. 00:11:10.942 --> 00:11:11.023 Okay. 00:11:11.143 --> 00:11:16.389 Since 2018, it's 2025 upon recording, you've been in, you said five? 00:11:17.410 --> 00:11:17.652 Yeah. 00:11:18.011 --> 00:11:21.996 Because even in that, in the school at some point, they decided they were going to remodel for the summer. 00:11:22.057 --> 00:11:24.841 So then we had to go back into homes for a season and back in. 00:11:24.900 --> 00:11:30.509 So if you count every little space we've met in, I think it's up to eight, but like three major moves. 00:11:30.948 --> 00:11:34.494 So you've gone through, yeah, three major moves, five. 00:11:34.658 --> 00:11:35.030 Eight. 00:11:35.714 --> 00:11:46.788 facility situations, including a pandemic, your first year and a half, two years in without a lot of stability, you have big vision, fearless leadership. 00:11:46.827 --> 00:11:59.943 What I want to point out is the fact that like, especially in that bar story, you've been able to lead people into new seasons again and again and again, and somehow inspired them to action. 00:12:00.524 --> 00:12:08.081 So like you said, you guys were cleaning up stuff on the ground and, in order to have church for a while there. 00:12:08.403 --> 00:12:22.514 Okay, this is where I think your superpower comes in, but I want to unlock it for everyone today that's trying to break barriers like this, trying to figure out how to move forward into the future when they're facing obstacles like this. 00:12:22.533 --> 00:12:26.081 Because this is, again, something I think you do better than most. 00:12:27.745 --> 00:12:31.893 How have you unlocked people's potential on your team? 00:12:32.433 --> 00:12:40.846 Like how have you gotten to mobilize people literally to the point of like, I'm going to clean up filth from a bar last night so that people can meet Jesus. 00:12:41.489 --> 00:12:41.649 Yeah. 00:12:41.729 --> 00:12:42.831 How do you do that, man? 00:12:44.232 --> 00:12:46.917 Man, the, the key came for me. 00:12:46.956 --> 00:12:55.466 Um, so during the middle of everything and

during the pandemic, I decided to go back to school and complete, um, my graduate work. 00:12:55.787 --> 00:13:08.323 And so, and during that research time for my doctorate, I actually studied churches that were killing it, that were just repeatedly training, attracting, and elevating young leaders. 00:13:08.865 --> 00:13:12.068 And so I wanted to deep dive into that and say, hey, what's working for them? 00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:23.904 And after studying several different organizations, the key that really came out for me is that healthy cultures are cultures built on trust and empowerment. 00:13:24.645 --> 00:13:24.765 And so, 00:13:24.802 --> 00:13:31.628 And that idea of the two-sided coin of trust, empowerment, unlocked everything for me. 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:36.211 One thing that, so we need to dive into all of that. 00:13:36.692 --> 00:13:40.535 One thing I want to say as we do, so John is incredible with teams. 00:13:40.895 --> 00:13:43.477 John is incredible at unlocking the potential of people. 00:13:44.099 --> 00:13:50.583 He is incredible at taking people through walls of fire that other people are like, we can't move forward. 00:13:51.225 --> 00:13:52.405 John, you've been able to do that. 00:13:52.885 --> 00:13:59.116 And so trust and empowerment, this is a framework you use in building up and unlocking the potential of teams. 00:14:00.099 --> 00:14:10.865 One thing about John that I've picked up is you're equally as powerful a lead pastor, church planter, as you are like an executive pastor. 00:14:10.904 --> 00:14:14.649 You know, like you have both of those sides of your brain that most of us don't. 00:14:15.029 --> 00:14:17.392 Like I lean into executive pastors at our church. 00:14:17.852 --> 00:14:18.994 You kind of are both. 00:14:19.554 --> 00:14:22.238 And so you lead your team, you lead your staff. 00:14:22.798 --> 00:14:26.022 Talk to me about this framework you use of trust and empowerment. 00:14:26.322 --> 00:14:30.226 Do you mind like kind of, cause I know this is a whole world of thought for you. 00:14:30.827 --> 00:14:44.216 Do you mind like unpacking that for So the practical side of schooling and research, so not getting into the nerdy academic side of it, is really that key of trust and empowerment unlocks so much. 00:14:44.296 --> 00:14:49.100 And so I created a tool called the Trust Empowerment Matrix that I use with our team. 00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:53.504 And it's really defined our culture as a church. 00:14:53.644 --> 00:15:00.350 And so a trust really can be defined as the confidence you have in somebody's competence and character. 00:15:01.551 --> 00:15:03.913 And so it's the level of of confidence you have. 00:15:04.414 --> 00:15:06.099 And competence and character are both needed. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:13.135 There are people that you would trust with your life or with a secret, but you're not quite sure you trust them with a particular task or a job. 00:15:13.998 --> 00:15:20.576 And then there's other people that you trust to get the job done You don't quite trust their character, the person. 00:15:20.635 --> 00:15:23.219 And so you need both. 00:15:23.318 --> 00:15:32.966 But the thing that actually helped me and flipped the switch for me was the realization that if trust must be earned, then trust can be learned. 00:15:34.408 --> 00:15:39.952 That trust actually is a skill set that you can teach and actually build into your teams. 00:15:40.974 --> 00:15:47.759 And so for me, it's that idea of three ways to build trust would be, are you approachable? 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.961 Do people have access to you? 00:15:50.621 --> 00:15:51.844 Are you humble? 00:15:52.384 --> 00:15:53.504 Do you know the families? 00:15:53.565 --> 00:15:54.926 Do they know you? 00:15:55.206 --> 00:15:56.868 Do they feel a connection to you? 00:15:57.889 --> 00:16:00.471 The second way of building trust is authenticity. 00:16:00.990 --> 00:16:01.631 Are you real? 00:16:02.493 --> 00:16:08.618 I say instead of showing the display case bakery items, take them back in the kitchen. 00:16:09.077 --> 00:16:11.880 Let them get some flour on their hands and show them how the stuff is made. 00:16:12.562 --> 00:16:15.224 You can take them in and say, are you being real? 00:16:15.563 --> 00:16:17.990 Are you showing, hey, here's where I messed up right? 00:16:18.331 --> 00:16:19.191 Can you be vulnerable? 00:16:20.192 --> 00:16:22.274 But then you open that dialogue, right? 00:16:22.313 --> 00:16:22.913 Being open with them. 00:16:23.475 --> 00:16:26.216 And then the third component of trust really is then accountability. 00:16:26.638 --> 00:16:27.678 Do you follow through? 00:16:27.719 --> 00:16:30.061 Are you willing to have the hard conversation? 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:36.666 Because if you have the hard conversation with somebody, it actually builds the relationship and that's what trust is all about, right? 00:16:36.745 --> 00:16:40.370 It sets the temperature of the room and that you want a high trust environment. 00:16:41.169 --> 00:16:49.317 The other side of it would be empowerment where if trust is the relationship side, that empowerment actually is the responsibility side. 00:16:50.278 --> 00:16:57.706 And to empower someone, the definition I would define empowerment as giving somebody the authority and the ability to do something. 00:16:58.447 --> 00:17:05.734 And so we get stuck sometimes when we give somebody the responsibility of a task, but then we don't give them the authority to do something about it. 00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:13.564 Or maybe we've given them the authority, but we don't equip them and give them the opportunity to actually step up and lead where they need to. 00:17:13.604 --> 00:17:20.270 And so three ways that I've seen helpful to building empowerment is is clarity, consent, and coaching. 00:17:20.471 --> 00:17:24.355 And so clarity is unified language, right? 00:17:24.375 --> 00:17:32.804 You're very big on unified language within the garden

and vision mission values, but it's also clarifying what is the win, right? 00:17:32.824 --> 00:17:42.634 They have this term in military terms where it's called the commander's intent to where let's say the objective is to take this hill, okay? 00:17:43.596 --> 00:17:47.859 You might have a strategy or plan to take the hill, but what happens when you get into the battle, change. 00:17:48.601 --> 00:17:52.865 If you have to go back up the chain and wait for the new strategy to act, it's too late. 00:17:53.506 --> 00:18:04.478 But if you know the objective, if you know the commander's intent, like my job is to take that hill, then you have the freedom to adjust to really accomplish the objective. 00:18:04.538 --> 00:18:08.301 Another way to think about that is what's the goal of the goal, right? 00:18:08.362 --> 00:18:14.989 So the goal is not just the system that you've implemented, but the goal is what's the purpose of that system that you're implementing. 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:23.017 And so when you understand the opposite or what a success, then it gives people the opportunity to step up and rise up and lead where they're able to. 00:18:23.696 --> 00:18:29.942 And then after clarity is the idea of consent, where it's really, do you give people permission to play? 00:18:30.803 --> 00:18:35.287 Do you give them a chance to rise up and to lead? 00:18:36.028 --> 00:18:40.172 You know, I know our friend and mentor, you just had him on here, Bill, always says, let leaders lead. 00:18:40.511 --> 00:18:44.454 And so the best way to do that is give them that opportunity. 00:18:44.796 --> 00:18:56.950 And so, and, and, this is probably where I've seen pushback on this, is because you're not going to give people permission to change major things in the organization. 00:18:57.990 --> 00:19:01.834 But if you don't give people a vote in the decision, maybe you can give them a voice. 00:19:02.454 --> 00:19:11.782 And if you don't give them a chance to maybe decide how the factory system works, give every single person in your team the opportunity to stop the line. 00:19:12.743 --> 00:19:22.593 I forget which car manufacturer it was, but they ended up turning it around because what was happening is they were producing cars and the workers on the front line were seeing defects. 00:19:23.193 --> 00:19:27.038 But if they stopped the line, that's costing the organization money. 00:19:27.218 --> 00:19:30.842 And so they're saying, wait, I can't, I don't want to cost them money. 00:19:30.882 --> 00:19:32.243 So they let defects through. 00:19:33.224 --> 00:19:35.507 And so they didn't decide how to design the cars. 00:19:35.527 --> 00:19:41.353 They didn't decide what the process was, but they empowered the lowest level factory worker. 00:19:41.393 --> 00:19:44.396 Anybody in the factory could stop the line if they saw an issue. 00:19:45.076 --> 00:19:49.082 And what that did was to value excellence, elevated everyone's game and they got better for it. 00:19:49.942 --> 00:20:04.157 Another hotel example is an example where at the Rich Carlton, I forget the exact amount, but they empower the bellhop up to like$200 or$1,000 to make things right for the customer. 00:20:05.358 --> 00:20:15.028 If there's an issue or something happens, you empower them with authority to impact the bottom line, which is customer retention and satisfaction. 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:18.054 As church leaders, how does that come into play. 00:20:19.299 --> 00:20:25.470 What areas can you empower leaders to step up and lead with the risk, not just the task, but then the responsibility, right? 00:20:26.082 --> 00:20:31.008 Because if you give them permission and understand that failure is going to come with that, you can actually grow. 00:20:31.048 --> 00:20:35.271 And when you have that, then that leads to the last component there of coaching. 00:20:35.732 --> 00:20:40.798 And so when you have coaching, you can come alongside that and say, hey, you tried this, it didn't work. 00:20:40.858 --> 00:20:41.900 Let's come alongside here. 00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:43.020 Let's try this next time. 00:20:43.442 --> 00:20:45.423 And you help and elevate them and you get better. 00:20:45.463 --> 00:20:54.173 And so idea of a trust empowerment is that it really creates a cohesive team, both in relationship and responsibility. 00:20:54.786 --> 00:20:57.669 But what happens a lot of times is we tend to... 00:20:58.817 --> 00:21:00.078 we tend to favor one or the other. 00:21:00.439 --> 00:21:04.262 And so what I use with our team, we call it the trust empowerment matrix. 00:21:05.163 --> 00:21:08.185 And it's just one of those two by two boxes, right? 00:21:08.747 --> 00:21:16.512 And so if you have a low trust, low empowerment team, I would call that the micromanager. 00:21:17.433 --> 00:21:22.878 That's someone who needs to be in on everything, tells them what to do, but also doesn't care about the person. 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:25.840 The end result of that team then is apathy. 00:21:26.862 --> 00:21:32.547 Now, I spent half my life envisioning through sports or movie references. 00:21:32.827 --> 00:21:38.252 And so what comes to mind for me as that micromanager is you end up with a team of stormtroopers. 00:21:39.513 --> 00:21:45.599 The guys that look the same, they're not good at their job, they're not resilient, they fall out. 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:47.821 And nobody wants to work for a micromanager. 00:21:47.842 --> 00:21:49.482 Is that because of the micromanaging? 00:21:49.522 --> 00:21:52.486 The micromanaging is causing people to function that way. 00:21:52.506 --> 00:21:55.429 Yeah, they just feel completely boxed in and it feels like, why try? 00:21:55.548 --> 00:21:56.009 It doesn't matter. 00:21:57.442 --> 00:22:04.508 Now the two wings of the matrix, so whether it's high trust or high empowerment, actually you can see some success, but it's not the healthiest. 00:22:05.249 --> 00:22:11.875 So for example, if you have high

trust but low empowerment, I would call that person the minion maker. 00:22:13.236 --> 00:22:19.000 So again, I got three kids and so I've seen all the Despicable Me movies. 00:22:19.681 --> 00:22:24.224 If you think about it, you got a character, Gru, and all the little yellow guys, the minions, right? 00:22:24.404 --> 00:22:28.409 You got one decision maker and then a bunch of loyal followers. 00:22:29.289 --> 00:22:31.653 They actually are pretty successful in the first movie, right? 00:22:31.692 --> 00:22:32.574 They steal the moon. 00:22:33.094 --> 00:22:33.815 That's pretty good. 00:22:33.875 --> 00:22:34.536 That's not bad. 00:22:34.576 --> 00:22:35.497 That's not bad, right? 00:22:36.096 --> 00:22:41.702 So as long as the decision maker makes good decisions, right, they can do great stuff. 00:22:41.863 --> 00:22:58.141 But the problem is when that one person leaves, that one person stops making great decisions, or you get one of the younger leaders, like the minions, wants to grow in their responsibility and now they don't have any authority to do anything, What do they do? 00:22:58.181 --> 00:22:58.500 They leave. 00:23:00.522 --> 00:23:06.890 And so the end result of a micromanager is apathy, but the end result of a minion maker is actually frustration. 00:23:08.090 --> 00:23:09.992 And they say, I can't grow here. 00:23:10.834 --> 00:23:12.455 So your best people end up leaving. 00:23:12.635 --> 00:23:35.900 You got some rock star, future preacher, rock star, leader, worship leader, but they're like, I'm pigeonholed into these small areas of just honestly like obedience, widget making in this church So I think Larry Osborn says it this way, eagles want to soar, and eagles will find the place with the highest ceiling. 00:23:36.461 --> 00:23:39.383 And if your ceiling's real low, they'll leave. 00:23:39.462 --> 00:23:41.204 You'll have a church of no young eagles. 00:23:42.326 --> 00:23:43.086 So you're a minion maker. 00:23:43.287 --> 00:23:44.968 You're a minion maker, right. 00:23:44.988 --> 00:23:50.733 Now the other side of it, you can also have some success where you have high empowerment but low trust. 00:23:50.973 --> 00:23:53.576 I would call that person the silo builder. 00:23:54.477 --> 00:23:55.137 Okay, right. 00:23:55.586 --> 00:24:02.873 And so an example of that might be if you've been in a church where maybe one ministry is really successful but unconnected to the others. 00:24:03.634 --> 00:24:10.160 Or if you're in a business world, maybe you have one department that does really well together but is completely removed from everybody else. 00:24:10.520 --> 00:24:13.243 The movie reference there for me would be Batman. 00:24:15.425 --> 00:24:17.728 I'm curious how you're going to explain that. 00:24:17.948 --> 00:24:19.769 Well, because Batman's really good at what he does. 00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:22.251 He doesn't want to work with anybody though. 00:24:23.133 --> 00:24:23.773 Right? 00:24:23.874 --> 00:24:29.500 I mean,

you can try with the DC League and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, he's like, just let me be Batman. 00:24:29.981 --> 00:24:32.124 Leave me alone. 00:24:32.263 --> 00:24:36.470 And so the end result of a silo builder is not frustration, but actually isolation. 00:24:38.031 --> 00:24:45.280 And so you can have a certain level of success, but where silo builders get into trouble is that, one, when it's budget time. 00:24:46.182 --> 00:24:46.301 Mm-hmm. 00:24:46.657 --> 00:24:49.240 Because now you're in it for yourself, right? 00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:51.942 It's almost like a giant staff game of hungry, hungry hippos. 00:24:52.383 --> 00:24:52.682 Yeah. 00:24:52.843 --> 00:24:53.003 Right? 00:24:53.044 --> 00:24:53.663 Like, what can you get? 00:24:53.683 --> 00:24:58.607 And number two, when things go wrong, what do silo builders do? 00:24:58.627 --> 00:24:59.068 They blame. 00:25:00.230 --> 00:25:01.230 Oh, it's not my ministry. 00:25:02.491 --> 00:25:02.672 Right? 00:25:02.711 --> 00:25:04.673 Which you don't want that in a church, and you can't have that. 00:25:05.213 --> 00:25:06.775 Would you say it also produces division? 00:25:06.815 --> 00:25:07.955 It does, 100%. 00:25:07.997 --> 00:25:08.797 Yeah. 00:25:09.357 --> 00:25:11.839 Which is the scariest thing of all, because now you have a church split. 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:12.500 Yep. 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:13.401 Or the brewings of it. 00:25:13.942 --> 00:25:14.682 Yeah. 00:25:15.202 --> 00:25:16.483 And it just becomes... 00:25:16.624 --> 00:25:17.265 healthy quickly. 00:25:19.750 --> 00:25:28.547 But the positive environment, the one that you want to work for, the fourth quadrant here, is where you have high empowerment, high trust. 00:25:28.948 --> 00:25:31.353 I would call those people the hero multipliers. 00:25:31.933 --> 00:25:32.816 Wow, okay. 00:25:32.836 --> 00:25:33.557 I like that title. 00:25:33.576 --> 00:25:37.345 And so the movie reference there is if you think about the Avengers. 00:25:37.986 --> 00:25:38.046 Woo! 00:25:38.753 --> 00:25:44.020 You've got a group of people with very different superpowers that together save the world. 00:25:44.121 --> 00:25:52.792 You're no longer threatened by somebody's skill set, but you think, wow, together we can save the world. 00:25:54.214 --> 00:25:57.779 And so the end result is not apathy or frustration or isolation. 00:25:57.819 --> 00:26:00.763 The end result of the hero multipliers is collaboration. 00:26:02.286 --> 00:26:02.365 Yeah. 00:26:02.753 --> 00:26:07.357 If you think about it, imagine walking into a place where you feel fully known. 00:26:08.278 --> 00:26:12.281 They know your flaws, you know theirs, and you feel loved, and you feel believed in. 00:26:12.301 --> 00:26:14.203 And someone says, I trust in you. 00:26:14.403 --> 00:26:15.244 I've got your back. 00:26:15.904 --> 00:26:17.086 They're honest, they're approachable. 00:26:17.666 --> 00:26:18.468 They're real with you. 00:26:19.107 --> 00:26:21.509 You hold each other accountable when things don't go well. 00:26:21.851 --> 00:26:21.990 Why? 00:26:22.070 --> 00:26:22.810 Because you have trust. 00:26:23.352 --> 00:26:24.992 But then you also feel empowered. 00:26:25.513 --> 00:26:30.738 That's saying, understand that God didn't just call me to start a church, but God called his people. 00:26:31.499 --> 00:26:36.864 And that we are his body and that we have many different functions, right? 00:26:37.345 --> 00:26:47.055 And that we're best when we live out our calling, live out of our gifting to save the world, not us doing it, but through Jesus Christ, right? 00:26:47.536 --> 00:26:50.798 That as a body, as a church, we need each other. 00:26:51.000 --> 00:27:36.636 And that honestly is what allowed us to not only survive through a pandemic, through multiple locations, through all these challenges of early days of church planting, but rather see God continually show up and to see true genuine love for each other and to see that when you succeed I succeed and vice versa and so that when you have this gifting it's not about comparison right it's not about pride it's not about trying to make it to the top of some list that doesn't even exist right it's like we live in an age where people keep trying to build their towers with other people's blocks yeah right in order for me to be successful you have to fail yes when that's not the God I read in the Bible, right? 00:27:36.836 --> 00:27:39.839 Our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? 00:27:39.980 --> 00:27:43.583 And someone asked me when we were starting to plant a church, like, do you need another church here in the Valley? 00:27:43.603 --> 00:27:45.164 I said, no, we need a thousand. 00:27:45.384 --> 00:27:45.944 That's right. 00:27:46.346 --> 00:27:48.468 Like we need more and more churches, right? 00:27:48.567 --> 00:27:49.729 It's not a zero sum game. 00:27:50.028 --> 00:28:02.799 No, it's that when we as a body can lift each other up with we as pastors and faith-driven leaders can lift each other up and that there's trust there and there's empowerment there, man, there's no telling what God can do. 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:03.280 can't do. 00:28:04.301 --> 00:28:05.343 Dude, this is so good. 00:28:05.563 --> 00:28:07.065 Can I ask case studies? 00:28:07.464 --> 00:28:07.704 Yeah. 00:28:07.765 --> 00:28:08.185 Can we go there? 00:28:08.425 --> 00:28:08.865 Yep. 00:28:08.886 --> 00:28:10.888 Let me just throw scenarios at you. 00:28:10.929 --> 00:28:13.811 And, um, this is a matrix that you use. 00:28:14.491 --> 00:28:17.556 What would you do based on that matrix to solve that problem? 00:28:17.715 --> 00:28:17.895 Yep. 00:28:18.317 --> 00:28:18.817 Play that game. 00:28:18.916 --> 00:28:19.096 Yep. 00:28:19.337 --> 00:28:19.758 All right. 00:28:20.439 --> 00:28:21.720 I wish we had like texting right now. 00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:25.223 I'd like texting your question, but we don't. 00:28:25.344 --> 00:28:26.685 So here's my questions.

00:28:27.086 --> 00:28:36.135 Um, so first one is imagine you have a ministry that's struggling under a particular leader And you got to make a decision around that leader. 00:28:36.175 --> 00:28:38.358 Like, man, is this not the right person? 00:28:38.378 --> 00:28:40.842 Is this person needing coaching? 00:28:41.603 --> 00:28:46.970 But you're noticing that every other ministry is doing well, but this one ministry is really suffering, hurting. 00:28:47.009 --> 00:28:49.653 I feel like I get text messages all the time about this exact question. 00:28:49.673 --> 00:28:49.794 Like, 00:28:49.854 --> 00:28:50.555 what do I do? 00:28:51.215 --> 00:28:58.705 How would you, through the lens of this grid, start to move towards that problem to see that ministry start to grow healthy? 00:28:58.925 --> 00:28:59.006 Yeah. 00:28:59.809 --> 00:29:10.848 So one thought that I've learned over the years that's helped me, that maybe it's going to help somebody out there, is that address the person, attack the issue, not the other way around. 00:29:11.950 --> 00:29:12.630 Okay, explain that. 00:29:13.191 --> 00:29:24.220 So we live in a culture, like whether it's politics or social, that as soon as you disagree with somebody, right, it's personal, and you go after the person, and then the issue is whatever it is. 00:29:25.280 --> 00:29:41.797 But when you can embrace the humanity of the person, right, and you assume the best, and instead of getting confrontational, you just get curious, right, that's probably the best way I'd say it, is that when there's an issue, instead of like rising up, like, okay, it's time to fight. 00:29:42.196 --> 00:29:44.799 Like if it's against evil, 100%, right? 00:29:45.661 --> 00:29:48.544 But a lot of times these conflicts are things within the church, right? 00:29:48.604 --> 00:29:52.827 They're judgment calls, there's processes, there's this is your making, those are the things. 00:29:53.528 --> 00:30:03.619 When you understand that that person has been made in the image of God and that they have value and that there's something going on in their life or in their systems where you have, if you can get to that issue, right? 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:06.262 And you share, hey, I see what you're doing. 00:30:06.303 --> 00:30:07.443 You're making a difference. 00:30:07.503 --> 00:30:08.644 Here's this man. 00:30:08.825 --> 00:30:10.446 We wouldn't be where we are without you. 00:30:10.928 --> 00:30:11.288 God, I love you. 00:30:11.307 --> 00:30:11.749 I love you too. 00:30:11.769 --> 00:30:12.348 That's awesome. 00:30:13.871 --> 00:30:16.032 Help me understand what's going on here. 00:30:16.133 --> 00:30:17.233 That's a question you would ask. 00:30:17.375 --> 00:30:18.296 Help me understand. 00:30:18.316 --> 00:30:18.976 Help me understand. 00:30:19.016 --> 00:30:20.037 Right? 00:30:20.057 --> 00:30:20.198 Okay. 00:30:20.577 --> 00:30:23.681 And so, because now, now it's not about the person. 00:30:23.721 --> 00:30:26.084 It's about whatever the issue is. 00:30:26.463 --> 00:30:28.787 Help me ask that question the right way. 00:30:28.866 --> 00:30:30.648 So let's just pretend worship is terrible. 00:30:30.848 --> 00:30:32.150 Like it's falling apart. 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:33.672 You got the wrong leader. 00:30:33.711 --> 00:30:36.595 I'm just laughing because we got two worship leaders. 00:30:36.615 --> 00:30:38.838 We got two worship leaders Hypothetically speaking. 00:30:38.858 --> 00:30:40.261 Hypothetically, if you're worshiping, you're sucked. 00:30:40.281 --> 00:30:43.208 Let's say worship is way off, and they were in the room. 00:30:43.367 --> 00:30:44.471 They're giving nooks right now. 00:30:44.510 --> 00:30:46.074 They're patting themselves on the back. 00:30:46.474 --> 00:30:48.239 No, just to give you guys crap. 00:30:48.538 --> 00:30:53.308 But pretend it's worship, and maybe you think... 00:30:53.890 --> 00:31:04.268 I don't know, like maybe practices should be happening or the team should be working a little harder, like whatever it is you think the issue is, but Sunday they're showing up and they're stopping mid-song. 00:31:04.328 --> 00:31:05.349 It's a train wreck. 00:31:06.372 --> 00:31:11.721 How are you asking that question in that context? 00:31:12.066 --> 00:31:12.707 Just hypothetically. 00:31:13.747 --> 00:31:17.570 So the idea there, this is where trust and empowerment go together. 00:31:17.750 --> 00:31:26.238 And so what I've learned is the best way to handle conflicts is actually beforehand to get clarity around expectations. 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:37.567 I would define, and it's not original to me, but I would say I would define frustration as the gap between expectation and experience. 00:31:38.868 --> 00:31:45.478 So if you have an expectation up here and the experience is downhill The level of that gap is where the frustration exists, right? 00:31:46.058 --> 00:31:55.036 And so you have to start by asking yourself, have I communicated my expectation of what success is? 00:31:55.717 --> 00:32:02.970 Because if you've got the team to agree upon that, now you can say, hey, our vision is this. 00:32:05.314 --> 00:32:07.259 I saw this, right? 00:32:07.299 --> 00:32:09.084 Whatever it is, like you stopped in mid song. 00:32:09.826 --> 00:32:12.673 Help me understand what the issue is. 00:32:13.457 --> 00:32:14.179 Like, I'm just curious. 00:32:14.219 --> 00:32:16.044 Like, I want to know, like, I trust you. 00:32:16.144 --> 00:32:16.905 You have that heartbeat. 00:32:16.945 --> 00:32:18.770 We, we, we believe in the same God. 00:32:18.791 --> 00:32:19.894 We're after the same things. 00:32:20.636 --> 00:32:20.856 So. 00:32:21.698 --> 00:32:24.843 In your opinion, where is that coming from or how does that accomplish that? 00:32:25.203 --> 00:32:25.463 Yeah. 00:32:25.564 --> 00:32:31.252 And because then if they share that, right, and you're listening, and the other key too is to listen to understand versus listening to reply. 00:32:31.713 -->

00:32:31.993 Okay. 00:32:32.054 --> 00:32:36.381 Dude, you're like the king of banger one-liners, by the way. 00:32:36.942 --> 00:32:40.968 Like if we don't slow you down, like you just dropped gold and people are going to miss it. 00:32:41.209 --> 00:32:42.590 Can you explain that phrase a little bit? 00:32:44.173 --> 00:32:47.018 So much in leadership and honestly in relationships in general, right? 00:32:47.201 --> 00:32:49.663 is this will be for someone's marriage right now, okay? 00:32:50.644 --> 00:32:53.346 I understand husbands. 00:32:53.366 --> 00:32:55.469 I learned from experience, okay? 00:32:55.568 --> 00:33:00.173 And so because I'm a preacher, convincer, like let's go, let's talk. 00:33:00.252 --> 00:33:09.221 I'm like, while you're sharing your heart, like if I'm not careful, like I'm just slowly building up my artillery to respond, right? 00:33:09.260 --> 00:33:15.807 Instead of, okay, you're saying this, where is that coming from? 00:33:15.846 --> 00:33:17.167 What's underneath that? 00:33:17.167 --> 00:33:47.881 right the issue is a five but you're coming at it like an eight what where's that there's something probably more there right and if i can get to that issue of the heart i connect with that then we can go through the journey together versus you got walls up i got walls up going through right and so if you actually healed my marriage bro like i like no it's so good so um so if you can understand where someone's coming for you might still do disagree, by the way. 00:33:48.040 --> 00:33:50.343 It doesn't just mean just let things go. 00:33:50.383 --> 00:33:54.847 That's why having the hard conversation is actually the loving thing to do. 00:33:55.249 --> 00:33:56.329 Which is one of your principles. 00:33:56.710 --> 00:34:04.659 You want to actually get down to the last 10% thing that nobody's saying out loud or that they are feeling. 00:34:05.138 --> 00:34:06.099 You want to unearth that. 00:34:06.580 --> 00:34:10.804 You're digging for gold there. 00:34:10.905 --> 00:34:12.467 What is the core issue? 00:34:12.507 --> 00:34:13.929 What is going on in your heart? 00:34:14.028 --> 00:34:17.072 And your listening to understand principle applies to that. 00:34:17.072 --> 00:34:33.710 because if I am just building up what I want to say next rather than being genuinely intrigued in that person's understanding of the situation, I'm going to miss the opportunity to help coach them towards what success could look like. 00:34:34.510 --> 00:34:36.112 Am I understanding that right? 00:34:36.333 --> 00:34:42.179 When you build that rapport, it allows you to come alongside that person and now you're taking a journey together. 00:34:42.860 --> 00:35:24.907 But you've got to understand where that person coming from so that you can share your heart behind that too there's a real funny story again movie sports guy in the 2012 Olympics Anthony Davis was just coming out of college he was a top player in college and he gets to go on the dream team I mean imagine that he's all of a sudden hitting the floor with Kobe Bryant LeBron KD right all these guys right they're in an early game they're playing I think Nigeria they're up by like 60 right and coach goes Davis you're in And so he goes up to the scores table and then all of a sudden he's walking back to the bench with his head down and everyone's really confused. 00:35:24.947 --> 00:35:28.012 And so he's like, what are you doing? 00:35:28.132 --> 00:35:30.536 He's like, coach, I'm sorry, I can't get in the game. 00:35:31.237 --> 00:35:31.438 Why? 00:35:31.478 --> 00:35:33.721 He's like, I forgot to put my jersey on. 00:35:34.402 --> 00:35:36.344 He had put his warm-up jersey on. 00:35:36.385 --> 00:35:37.007 Oh, this is a true story. 00:35:37.027 --> 00:35:37.847 This is a true story. 00:35:37.947 --> 00:35:38.289 Dang. 00:35:38.409 --> 00:35:40.572 Anthony, you can probably Google the image. 00:35:40.592 --> 00:35:41.635 We can find it and put it in later. 00:35:41.695 --> 00:35:48.447 But there's an image of Kobe Bryant looking in Anthony Davis' jersey and making fun of him to no end. 00:35:48.487 --> 00:35:49.409 Dang. 00:35:49.429 --> 00:35:50.349 Because here he was. 00:35:50.409 --> 00:35:55.760 He made the Olympic team, but he couldn't get in the game because he didn't put the jersey on. 00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:56.862 That is insane. 00:35:57.378 --> 00:36:10.295 And so the reason I say that is in all of our excitement of ministry and systems and processes and weekend services, before any of that happens, we've got to put on the Christian jersey. 00:36:12.197 --> 00:36:20.969 Are you being Jesus and modeling that servant transformative leadership for your team? 00:36:21.471 --> 00:36:26.117 Because if you do that, they're going to be more apt to listen and have conversations with you. 00:36:27.137 --> 00:36:28.523 basics of the faith. 00:36:28.961 --> 00:36:34.126 Authenticity, love, compassion, interest in the other. 00:36:34.166 --> 00:36:39.490 Like these things we oftentimes overlook for the sake of like, oh, I want to win. 00:36:39.510 --> 00:36:44.014 And actually we don't even have permission to play. 00:36:44.876 --> 00:36:45.677 It's so good, dude. 00:36:46.336 --> 00:36:50.460 Like one final thought there too, if you think about it, if you think, well, they're not ready, right? 00:36:51.221 --> 00:36:52.342 The reality is we're not ready. 00:36:52.983 --> 00:36:55.105 And we never have been. 00:36:55.204 --> 00:36:56.945 And yet God moved in us anyway. 00:36:57.266 --> 00:36:58.327 Like he still gave us the keys. 00:36:58.827 --> 00:37:02.639 Like, Are you familiar with Air Force One? 00:37:03.121 --> 00:37:04.344 Oh, yeah. 00:37:04.666 --> 00:37:06.873 Did you know that Air Force One actually isn't the plane? 00:37:07.916 --> 00:37:08.318 Okay. 00:37:08.961 --> 00:37:12.125 Air Force One actually isn't the plane that the president flies on. 00:37:12.704 --> 00:37:18.309 It's actually the call sign for any plane

that holds the president. 00:37:18.971 --> 00:37:19.391 Oh, okay. 00:37:20.052 --> 00:37:24.755 So if the president flies on a little Cessna, all of a sudden that Cessna becomes Air Force One. 00:37:24.956 --> 00:37:25.215 Yeah. 00:37:25.717 --> 00:37:26.637 It's a call sign. 00:37:26.777 --> 00:37:28.398 Now think about the eternal connection. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:30.561 That's good. 00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:36.166 Air Force One is the call sign of the president in the presence of the president on board. 00:37:36.346 --> 00:37:37.166 Yeah, that's good, bro. 00:37:37.806 --> 00:37:38.927 For all believers and leaders. 00:37:38.927 --> 00:37:50.291 that are out there, that you have been empowered with the Holy Spirit, the same spirit that spoke the world into existence, that conquered death itself. 00:37:50.411 --> 00:37:53.818 And then Jesus tells his disciples, it's going to be to your advantage that I'm going away. 00:37:55.842 --> 00:37:57.704 And I'm going to give you the power of the spirit. 00:37:57.724 --> 00:38:05.670 So if God empowered us with the very call sign of his image and his nature, dude, what can we do as the church? 00:38:05.751 --> 00:38:06.010 Yeah. 00:38:07.331 --> 00:38:08.333 Yeah. 00:38:08.353 --> 00:38:13.157 And the beautiful thing is like, we have access to his Holy spirit and can be his agents. 00:38:13.878 --> 00:38:15.179 We can have his call sign. 00:38:15.219 --> 00:38:21.063 You know, if we don't walk in the power of the Holy spirit, we're not air force one just by virtue of showing up. 00:38:21.643 --> 00:38:25.807 We need to like embrace our call to live like Jesus, to walk in the power of the Holy spirit. 00:38:25.807 --> 00:38:34.958 in his way to live by the power of his spirit, how much more as leaders do we need to live into the power of the Holy Spirit for leadership? 00:38:35.518 --> 00:38:41.786 All right, dude, I want to ask one more, not case study question, but this one more directed at your experience with this. 00:38:42.487 --> 00:38:43.708 Dude, I've watched your team. 00:38:43.748 --> 00:38:51.177 I've met with some of the folks that have served under you, led next to you, and it's an incredible team and you've unlocked them. 00:38:52.257 --> 00:38:53.641 How have you broken barriers? 00:38:53.740 --> 00:38:58.530 How have you overcome obstacles using this framework of leadership? 00:38:58.592 --> 00:39:09.755 Do you have any examples of where you've helped your team reach a goal or break through a difficult season by applying some of these principles? 00:39:10.737 --> 00:39:11.900 Yeah, so we've... 00:39:13.858 --> 00:39:23.532 you know, I, I would, what we try to do with us and I think could apply because we aren't the garden, right. 00:39:23.693 --> 00:39:28.079 Or Echo's like, did you, you guys are killing it and like launching mega churches and it's awesome. 00:39:28.161 --> 00:39:29.081 Praise Jesus for that. 00:39:29.483 --> 00:39:32.487 That was also not our story. 00:39:32.807 --> 00:39:33.268 Okay. 00:39:33.309 --> 00:39:34.911 We're cleaning up floors out of bars. 00:39:35.050 --> 00:39:35.271 Okay. 00:39:35.291 --> 00:39:35.952 That was our start. 00:39:36.494 --> 00:39:43.811 And so a little different start and I love it, but, but what we had was that, um, what I would say is this realization, right? 00:39:43.871 --> 00:39:47.056 To start where you are, to use what you have. 00:39:47.456 --> 00:39:47.836 Come on. 00:39:48.157 --> 00:39:48.818 And to do what you can. 00:39:48.858 --> 00:39:51.521 Can you say that one more time? 00:39:51.581 --> 00:39:52.581 Cause that's fire. 00:39:52.621 --> 00:40:01.831 So that wherever you are in ministry, whatever size you have, whatever to start where you are, to use what you have and to do what you can. 00:40:01.873 --> 00:40:06.518 And so for us, it was like, who's the one leader we could invest in? 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.655 Who is the one musician that you think Scott was the, Opportunity that, hey, you know what? 00:40:12.235 --> 00:40:13.498 Why don't you pick the song this week? 00:40:13.637 --> 00:40:14.438 Why don't you do this thing? 00:40:15.581 --> 00:40:15.940 You know what? 00:40:16.121 --> 00:40:17.804 Let's try to launch this Bible study. 00:40:18.043 --> 00:40:18.644 Why don't you do this? 00:40:18.704 --> 00:40:19.545 How can I help you? 00:40:19.925 --> 00:40:21.688 What do you need to launch this ministry? 00:40:22.730 --> 00:40:28.157 And so when we think about it, and you give that opportunity to people, and they'll rise up to the occasion. 00:40:28.777 --> 00:40:37.789 When we finally did get into our building, for example, the person that vetted our six-figure AV install was like 23, right? 00:40:38.722 --> 00:40:39.324 You're serious. 00:40:39.684 --> 00:40:45.583 Our worship leader was there and he, now I walked alongside of, but he vetted all the vendors, went through, did everything right. 00:40:45.623 --> 00:40:48.492 Came through, made a proposal and it was so detailed. 00:40:49.414 --> 00:40:50.880 And I was like, yeah, it looks great. 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:51.300 Let's do it. 00:40:51.938 --> 00:40:53.420 And you didn't make it on ChatGPT. 00:40:53.740 --> 00:40:55.543 No, no. 00:40:55.704 --> 00:40:58.228 But how that looks on a practical basis, right? 00:40:58.349 --> 00:41:01.173 And so transition out. 00:41:01.213 --> 00:41:03.137 So now like with Brandon, who's in the room here, right? 00:41:03.699 --> 00:41:05.641 I'm like, what is God doing in his heart? 00:41:05.842 --> 00:41:07.344 How is God leading him, right? 00:41:07.485 --> 00:41:11.152 And I'm trusting God's gifting in him in set planning. 00:41:11.192 --> 00:41:12.574 So we work side to side to work. 00:41:12.673 --> 00:41:16.838 where it matches in, you know, language and theology. 00:41:17.938 --> 00:41:20.601 So we want to think, but I'm letting him lead the way on that, right? 00:41:20.641 --> 00:41:23.402 And then team building,

because that's his gifting and skillset, right? 00:41:24.003 --> 00:41:26.786 And same thing with our, within facilities, right? 00:41:26.865 --> 00:41:31.289 Or in our teams or in building men's and women's ministries and groups, right? 00:41:31.309 --> 00:41:40.018 That we've seen so many groups take off in a church that's smaller in size because we've empowered leaders to own them. 00:41:40.197 --> 00:41:41.818 Actually, I know something about you. 00:41:41.898 --> 00:41:42.639 Can you share that? 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.304 Was it appropriate, the percentage of people you have in groups? 00:41:47.646 --> 00:41:56.880 Yeah, so last year we did a study, and we actually had just at or more people in groups than we had on Sunday morning attendance. 00:41:58.083 --> 00:41:59.164 Pause, dude. 00:42:00.425 --> 00:42:02.208 That is unheard of. 00:42:02.248 --> 00:42:08.478 You have at one time had more people in groups than on a Sunday morning. 00:42:09.697 --> 00:42:11.579 It's like a pipe dream, dude. 00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:13.141 I don't know if pastors are allowed to say that. 00:42:13.161 --> 00:42:15.983 Or describes our Sunday morning. 00:42:16.023 --> 00:42:16.643 No, dude. 00:42:17.304 --> 00:42:23.030 No, like that should be everybody's goal because people in community become disciples of Jesus. 00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:25.010 That should be everybody's goal. 00:42:25.851 --> 00:42:33.878 And it says something about the kind of people that you've raised up as group leaders, that people want to be part of that, that they want to invite friends that haven't even been on a Sunday. 00:42:34.318 --> 00:42:35.039 That's insane, dude. 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:35.860 That's insane. 00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:43.068 Well, and I think leadership is one of those things that when you see it, it's hard to define, but you know it. 00:42:43.407 --> 00:43:00.485 I would say even looking at what you're doing at the garden, part of what you're seeing success in is because you're built trust, because you're so real with people, because you motivate them, inspire, lift them up, and then say, go do it with Miguel and others. 00:43:01.047 --> 00:43:08.173 I think you and I both agree in the sense that if it's just us, this thing ain't working at all. 00:43:08.375 --> 00:43:09.615 Don't smile. 00:43:09.615 --> 00:43:11.655 mile too hard over there. 00:43:12.139 --> 00:43:26.353 But So to flip it, just for a question on you, can you think of a time where you put trust in someone or maybe someone put trust in you in the early days where it really impacted you and led you to where you are today? 00:43:26.753 --> 00:43:44.047 I think that if I got a specific example, I'll say it, but right now the way I would think of that is our entire team is a bunch of very high-level leaders, some of them well beyond my leadership capacity or knowledge base in all of the area. 00:43:44.047 --> 00:43:44.688 in our church. 00:43:44.708 --> 00:43:57.449 So to call Miguel out, uh, Miguel's

ability to both persuade coach and care for people and multiply himself goes far beyond anything I have ever done or could ever do. 00:43:57.489 --> 00:44:06.804 Um, yeah, he, he came, I actually recruited him out of apple and apple is one of those places that you don't typically recruit pastors from. 00:44:06.844 --> 00:44:09.347 Uh, but we saw potential in him. 00:44:09.387 --> 00:44:13.628 My father-in-law, um, could tell by his outfit that he was a musician. 00:44:13.648 --> 00:44:14.650 Anybody probably could. 00:44:14.670 --> 00:44:15.851 He just has that look. 00:44:15.891 --> 00:44:16.652 He's like, you play music. 00:44:17.134 --> 00:44:18.516 And he's, he tried to play it down. 00:44:18.556 --> 00:44:21.579 And my father-in-law early before, you know, really early days search. 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.181 I think we were just about to launch. 00:44:23.202 --> 00:44:27.648 I had just launched, um, persuaded him to jump into the worship team. 00:44:27.688 --> 00:44:31.893 And as we watched the way he just interacted with people, he brings an energy to the room. 00:44:32.414 --> 00:44:33.356 I mean, you can feel it. 00:44:33.376 --> 00:44:47.375 And, uh, I don't, I knew, I didn't know at the time that he had ministry experience as a intense, effective church out in California, but we sensed in him high potential. 00:44:47.994 --> 00:44:54.585 And so eventually as our team would talk about him, I just knew like, there's something special here. 00:44:54.664 --> 00:45:02.896 I remember my executive pastor saying like, Hey dude, I think you need to get to know Miguel because I'm pretty sure he's going to be on staff as a pastor at some point. 00:45:02.916 --> 00:45:02.936 I 00:45:03.317 --> 00:45:03.958 was like, all right. 00:45:04.438 --> 00:45:07.023 And so pressing in, I could feel it in the conversations. 00:45:07.123 --> 00:45:16.655 I remember when we were going through a worship transition, asking him just tons of questions and figuring out that we needed to make a major transition in worship. 00:45:17.155 --> 00:45:30.773 And all of that came from, one, seeing potential in somebody who wasn't your typical ministry person, didn't look like a pastor, didn't smell like a pastor, wasn't in ministry at the time, was working for the Antichrist, Apple itself. 00:45:31.693 --> 00:45:33.496 But as I got to know him, I was like... 00:45:34.753 --> 00:45:40.478 I unlocked, we, we through questions and listening realized this guy has more insight about our worship and the we do. 00:45:40.918 --> 00:45:44.021 And so leaning into that, um, eventually empowering him. 00:45:44.222 --> 00:45:48.005 I think one of the interesting things with the Miguel with he's a young Eagle, right? 00:45:48.045 --> 00:45:55.231 Like here's a younger guy than me who has higher ceiling than I do, uh, could be pretty intimidating for most guys. 00:45:55.291 --> 00:45:57.012 Like, Oh, I don't want to unlock this guy. 00:45:57.032 --> 00:45:58.434 He's better than me. 00:45:58.454 --> 00:46:00.576 Uh, you just stay over there for a while. 00:46:00.596 --> 00:46:04.719 Um, but, uh, but it's been an interesting process because I've had to speak into him. 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:06.114 him stuff that he didn't... 00:46:07.871 --> 00:46:08.376 He would have... 00:46:08.802 --> 00:46:10.182 to continue on Apple. 00:46:10.302 --> 00:46:11.764 He would have been happy to take a leadership role. 00:46:11.804 --> 00:46:15.608 He would have been happy and he's even scared of the pastor word. 00:46:15.788 --> 00:46:17.409 Like I see future church planter in him. 00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:18.911 I see pastor in him. 00:46:18.990 --> 00:46:33.043 And, um, and so just, uh, continuing to lean into that and not, not lean away from somebody who intimidates me, but to lean in and to, uh, give God permission to do more in our church than, um, I could do on my own. 00:46:33.182 --> 00:46:34.384 So yeah, raising him up. 00:46:34.463 --> 00:46:40.210 I think all of our team recognizes that they have skill sets, giftings, communication abilities that go beyond mine. 00:46:40.690 --> 00:46:51.762 And I think one of the things that the Lord has allowed me to do is to see potential in others that they don't see in themselves and to see, um, and to not be intimidated by people that are more gifted than me. 00:46:51.922 --> 00:46:57.527 My wife is more gifted, has more giftedness in her pinky finger than I do in my entire body. 00:46:57.628 --> 00:47:04.675 Photographer, entrepreneur, uh, we unlocked just allowing her to be entrepreneurial in our church. 00:47:04.715 --> 00:47:17.367 So she started, I And what I love about that is just that already in just those last few minutes, you're talking about leaning in and potential and empowering and lifting up. 00:47:18.268 --> 00:47:30.119 One of the things that was a big switch moment for me in those early days is that I think sometimes as pastors, as leaders, we go into ministry and we almost feel like we have people. 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.442 But if you have people, you can lose people. 00:47:35.844 --> 00:47:37.885 And it's personal and it's difficult. 00:47:38.146 --> 00:47:40.237 And then But when you think about it, whose church is it? 00:47:40.317 --> 00:47:41.679 Is it your church or God's church, right? 00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:54.889 And so what God kind of wrestled out of me, or is continuing to wrestle out of me, like present time, but helps a lot, is that when I take my hand like this, and it's not that the church has people, but rather we're called to help people. 00:47:55.905 --> 00:48:02.797 And God, whoever you've placed in my hand, I'm going to encourage, I'm going to love, I'm going to lift up and help them take the next step of faith. 00:48:03.378 --> 00:48:08.485 And that the win, right, if you think about Ephesians 4, right, is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. 00:48:08.927 --> 00:48:12.813 And what that allows you to do is that it takes the threat away.

00:48:13.954 --> 00:48:15.394 And instead there is joy. 00:48:15.414 --> 00:48:16.416 That's right, man. 00:48:16.715 --> 00:48:20.800 That if they are successful, God gets the glory and that's what matters most. 00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:31.708 And really the success or fruitfulness in church isn't me using my gift to its fullest extent and having the biggest possible room, hear me use my gift or something creepy like that. 00:48:31.728 --> 00:48:42.898 The biggest, some of the best fruit in your church is actually unlocking the potential of others and having a heart and eyes to see that. 00:48:43.179 --> 00:48:52.509 And this is what I see in what even your framework describes is that I'm always looking for how I could be part of their story, not how they could be part of mine. 00:48:52.949 --> 00:48:54.490 How can I unlock what God has? 00:48:55.331 --> 00:48:56.373 You know StoryBrand? 00:48:56.532 --> 00:48:56.793 Yep. 00:48:56.813 --> 00:48:58.476 Sorry, we're going to take this a little longer than we should. 00:49:00.818 --> 00:49:01.739 So what's his name? 00:49:01.759 --> 00:49:03.960 Donald Miller, writer, recreated himself. 00:49:04.041 --> 00:49:09.407 Now he's like using story to help entrepreneurs and business leaders, CEOs and stuff like that. 00:49:10.148 --> 00:49:14.632 And one of his frameworks, his basic framework is like everybody's living their their own story. 00:49:14.652 --> 00:49:22.367 And you need to understand as the business or leader or whatever church, how you fit into their story. 00:49:22.869 --> 00:49:36.284 And when you understand your role in their story, rather than how they fit in your story, then you can actually add value to them and they'll whatever, buy your product, be part of your thing, um, yeah, like you can connect with them. 00:49:36.485 --> 00:49:38.047 You can connect with potential clients and so forth. 00:49:38.088 --> 00:49:46.643 So how I see that in the church, you know, he, he talks about, um, everybody is Luke Skywalker and you got to position yourself as Yoda. 00:49:47.324 --> 00:49:47.403 Yeah. 00:49:47.423 --> 00:49:47.945 That makes sense. 00:49:47.965 --> 00:49:48.365 Definitely. 00:49:48.445 --> 00:49:50.068 So I'm not the main character. 00:49:50.108 --> 00:49:57.983 You're the main character and I'm the Yoda observing your life going like, Oh, I see how you could get through this struggle that you're facing. 00:49:58.443 --> 00:49:59.505 Can I help you with that? 00:50:00.130 --> 00:50:03.335 And then and only then will you attract people. 00:50:03.394 --> 00:50:04.076 Then and only then. 00:50:04.115 --> 00:50:07.280 Because really, I think he's just drawing from the gospel. 00:50:08.161 --> 00:50:09.244 I'm not here to serve me. 00:50:09.304 --> 00:50:10.264 I'm here to serve the king. 00:50:10.284 --> 00:50:13.670 And you're on the king's big story. 00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:17.215 How can I be positioned to serve you? 00:50:17.856 --> 00:50:20.820 Well, it's the difference of how do

you enter the room? 00:50:21.061 --> 00:50:23.505 Do you enter the room saying, here I am? 00:50:23.545 --> 00:50:26.449 Or do you enter the room going, there you are? 00:50:28.353 --> 00:50:28.612 Right? 00:50:29.217 --> 00:50:30.398 your one lighters or 00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:32.121 something. 00:50:32.141 --> 00:50:33.302 I want to go in for John now. 00:50:34.242 --> 00:50:35.443 But like when I walk in, right? 00:50:35.463 --> 00:50:39.967 Like, because the reality is, is like Nolan has got more coolness, right? 00:50:40.106 --> 00:50:41.429 In his pinky finger, right? 00:50:41.489 --> 00:50:43.831 Or that mustache than all of us, but I got more mustache. 00:50:43.851 --> 00:50:45.311 You got, you got a lot of stash, right? 00:50:45.371 --> 00:50:48.295 That's, that's part of the growth strategy of the garden. 00:50:48.494 --> 00:50:57.463 And, but the thing is, is like the realization that I'm not held accountable for your race, right? 00:50:58.083 --> 00:51:03.996 And so if I come in and And looking, I mean, Jesus came not to be served, but to serve, right? 00:51:04.545 --> 00:51:11.512 And so if we come in and he looked at all the disciples, and if you think about the disciples, like Doubting Thomas gets a bad rap, right? 00:51:12.253 --> 00:51:21.601 But if you ever look at the verses right before the Great Commission, right before the Great Commission, everyone knows like, go, therefore make disciples, baptize them, the whole line. 00:51:22.641 --> 00:51:26.224 Right before that, on the mountain, it says the disciples were there. 00:51:27.146 --> 00:51:30.128 Some worshiped and some doubted. 00:51:30.168 --> 00:51:33.391 Who's doubting Jesus at that moment? 00:51:33.670 --> 00:51:34.512 The resurrected Jesus. 00:51:34.512 --> 00:51:34.851 Jesus. 00:51:35.472 --> 00:51:35.833 Yes. 00:51:36.373 --> 00:51:45.483 And then at the same time, that's strangely comforting because God saw that and said, I'm still going to use you baby to build the kingdom, to flip the world upside down. 00:51:45.804 --> 00:51:45.884 Yeah. 00:51:45.903 --> 00:51:46.164 I love it. 00:51:46.204 --> 00:51:46.864 It's plan A. 00:51:46.925 --> 00:51:47.585 There's no plan B. 00:51:47.865 --> 00:51:48.347 Yeah, dude. 00:51:49.547 --> 00:52:06.927 So how much more can we empower our teams, people that God's given these frail, normal, everyday, ordinary disciples and be positioned in their life to empower through empowerment and trust what God and unlock what God has for them and ultimately for his mission and his kingdom. 00:52:06.967 --> 00:52:08.128 Do a good word, man. 00:52:08.288 --> 00:52:08.969 Appreciate you. 00:52:09.068 --> 00:52:11.771 Hey, how can people follow you? 00:52:12.652 --> 00:52:14.755 You're speaking pretty soon at a conference. 00:52:14.775 --> 00:52:15.436 Can you tell us about that? 00:52:16.336 --> 00:52:22.483 Yeah, so coming up at S2, I'm going to be leading a breakout there to teach this trust empowerment matrix. 00:52:22.682 --> 00:52:31.733 And so we're going to go deep dive into that matrix of how you can actually implement those concepts into your team and try to unlock some of the potential in your own teams and maybe break through any barriers you're going through. 00:52:31.753 --> 00:52:33.755 And so you can catch up with me there. 00:52:33.795 --> 00:52:34.876 That's coming up in November. 00:52:35.317 --> 00:52:43.284 Otherwise, you can just directly email me at jkregel, so J-K-R-A-G-E-L there at missiongrowthchurch.com or that's our church right there. 00:52:43.326 --> 00:52:45.847 So go ahead and visit missiongrowthchurch.com and we'll get connected. 00:52:46.007 --> 00:52:46.228 Cool. 00:52:46.268 --> 00:52:50.532 We'll link where you can follow him, connect with him, email him, all that in the show notes. 00:52:50.572 --> 00:52:52.976 So go ahead, click on those show notes, click on there. 00:52:53.016 --> 00:52:58.882 You'll also see a link to S2 and we'll get you connected with John at S2. 00:52:58.902 --> 00:53:02.465 It's one of the best conferences I think that exists in the state of Arizona. 00:53:02.925 --> 00:53:03.467 I'll be there. 00:53:03.507 --> 00:53:04.367 Our team will be there. 00:53:04.367 --> 00:53:11.485 We'll see you next time. 00:53:20.514 --> 00:53:22.255 Seriously, man, thank you for driving out. 00:53:22.376 --> 00:53:23.878 Thank you for what you're doing for the kingdom. 00:53:23.898 --> 00:53:25.340 I honor you. 00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:30.527 Again, you were one of the, I mean, you were one of the only dudes who I knew in Arizona. 00:53:30.547 --> 00:53:32.510 You called me the first day I moved here. 00:53:32.550 --> 00:53:39.159 And we truly as a church and as a team would not be where we are today without you, without your leadership and your wisdom. 00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:40.021 So appreciate you, man. 00:53:40.041 --> 00:53:41.222 Appreciate you jumping on the podcast. 00:53:41.242 --> 00:53:41.583 Thanks, man. 00:53:41.603 --> 00:53:42.603 We love you guys. 00:53:42.623 --> 00:53:42.864 All right. 00:53:42.905 --> 00:53:43.806 See you guys.