رونوشت کامل 100 Episodes In: What Humanity Working Has Learned About AI and the Future of Work

enough and you weren't showing the hustle and stuff. 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:59.600 And we were trying to be a little bit of a of a rebellion against that, even though we were sometimes better at saying it than acting upon what we did. 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:18.000 But then, as you point out, this is happening during COVID, a lot of people working from home, and of course, that working from home thing was an enforced thing for many people, but of course, it led to a debate, which ultimately led to a bunch of people going, you know what, I kind of like this working from home thing, and I want to do this remote work. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:33.519 And that was the primary trend, if you like, in work, and we decided we needed to jump on that so much so that we needed to change the name of the podcast, which we did, we changed it to making remote work, I think. 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:34.000 Was that right? 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:51.040 That was to me, that was fascinating because it was like an indication as to how, even though it didn't feel like it at the time, how rapidly it went from this is the most disruptive force in the world of work to now today, it's like, well, I guess people kind of do that. 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:53.519 And some people do, some people don't. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:06:02.319 Occasionally you'll read a story about, you know, employers hauling everybody back into the workplace, and you'll see some data showing what's actually happening. 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:07.759 And when you see what's actually happening is that it's more or less stabilized now, right? 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:13.279 There are some jobs where people work remotely all the time, there are some jobs that are more hybrid in nature. 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:23.839 And I gotta admit, like to me, I anticipated this being a bigger thing for a longer period than it has ended up becoming, right? 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:29.759 Not that people don't have necessarily mastered all of the skills that they need in order to be able to do it well. 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:38.079 But you know, it's not number one on the list when people are talking about what's going on in the in the world of work today. 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:39.519 You live this, Matt. 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.000 So what what have you seen where you are and how attitudes have shifted? 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:51.120 Well, I think I'm in a really lucky spot because my company that I'm with now embraced this right away and ran with it. 00:06:51.199 --> 00:07:00.800 They recognized the capability that you could actually tap into talent globally if you don't have uh to have somebody in one office or be based in a certain spot. 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:07.439 So I've been able to navigate that pretty well, and I was at a remote company prior to that. 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:31.120 So I I'm used to it, but I think that the compression of people being pulled back into the office when you have this world where some people are

not in the office, that's created this whole other weird thing where it's like, well, why do you want me there if when I go in, I'm having a meeting in a room where half the people are remote anyway. 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.920 I'm not getting all those promises that you talked about. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.560 And I think the reality is really hitting people. 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:46.000 And what I think's interesting is that now if you join a company that doesn't have this remote policy, people know what they can negotiate now. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.439 So it becomes a a different negotiating tactic. 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:58.160 And I think the companies that still drive it is like, nope, you have to move to Boston, um, they're gonna they're they're gonna lose talent. 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:03.199 The the new generation of people are like the freedom of it. 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:12.000 I think they're losing the camaraderie, the stuff that we got growing up, being in offices and stuff, but I don't know, maybe they won't miss it. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.959 You know, maybe the traditionalists will start to kind of fade away a little bit. 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.360 I don't know. 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.600 It's always just seemed like a real estate problem to me. 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.800 So, Bill, you were not with us when we were going through all of these machinations, but you obviously have lived through all of that. 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:25.279 Yeah. 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:34.879 Weigh in on either of those things, the sort of feeling of overall busyness, what happened with the remote work, and why you feel that it's less of a big deal than it was before. 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.480 What's been your experience during that whole period? 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:53.919 Yeah, I mean, I like the fact that Matt talked about the compression of time as we understand it and as we know it, because I feel like that was probably the first time in our lives that we had really kind of had this sort of undeniable compression of time. 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.639 And and you're right, the way that we responded to that was this sort of busyness badge. 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:00.720 I remember those early days. 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:15.440 I was in consulting when COVID first hit, and you know, you went from thinking, I don't even know if I'm gonna have a job, to working about three jobs in one and being so grateful that you had a paycheck, and even though it was all remote. 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.960 And I laugh when I think about the setups that we used to have, right? 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:31.039 I would have my one laptop, forget screens, we'd have one laptop that would sit on, in my case, Russian dictionaries, Russian English dictionaries on my kitchen counter, right? 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:36.960 So I would I would elevate it by putting it on top of books, and that would begin the day. 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:45.600 And at the time we were doing a lot of work with financial institutions and banks, trying to get remember the COVID sort of emergency funds into the hands of small businesses. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.519 So we were certainly doing what some might say is heroes work. 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:57.120 Um but then at the end of the day, I would close that laptop and I would put it away, like visibly away. 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:01.600 My husband was very clear about like, let's lock it up in a cabinet so you don't see it, right? 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:08.960 Because you were working in your kitchen, you're working in your dining room, and we needed sort of the segmentation. 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.320 Otherwise, everything bled into one big blur. 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:13.840 And for a while it did, right? 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:15.440 It bled into one big blur. 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:35.200 Fast forward a couple years, and I go to work at Microsoft and I joined Microsoft before anybody was back on the campus, and I remember the joys of that because I could go to this enormous campus, you know, here in where I live in Redmond, and it was like I felt like Goldilocks. 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:36.159 I could just pick a building. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.879 Yeah, and I could say, I'm gonna go into this building today and that building. 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.559 I got a choice of all the buildings, but there was also no one around. 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.279 And I found I kind of enjoyed that, right? 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:47.279 I didn't feel crowded. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:52.320 I felt like I could change the scenery for my creativity and I and I performed really well. 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.320 Fast forward to today, literally, it's interesting we're having this conversation today. 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.200 I was looking down on my odometer of my car. 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:09.200 You know, I now go in by choice, probably three, four, sometimes five days a week, and I just passed 77,777 miles of the car. 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:10.799 I thought, well, that's interesting. 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:12.960 777 all the way across. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.679 And I thought, how much is that in terms of circumnavigation around the world? 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.960 And it's about three and a little trips around the world. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:27.039 And I just in that moment, as I was listening to music on a commute to go in, I thought about that. 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:33.759 Like, had you said to me in 2021 that I'd be driving in as much as I am now, I never would have believed you. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:36.720 And yet, here I am by choice. 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.960 I like my screens, I like my desk, I like the cafe, I like the camaraderie. 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.519 Um but it's all so different. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.000 Every one of those chapters, Paul, is so different. 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:59.519 And now we're kind of back in

this weird compression of time thing with AI, where we're finding ourselves with this badge of busyness, but a very different kind of badge of busyness because of how much people expect us to do with the tools we have in our hands. 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:12.399 Which leads us to the last, I hope, name change of this podcast and to our newsletter as well, which is the change to humanity working. 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:21.519 We started thinking about, okay, we've looked at this from the perspective of the behavior of the human in isolation, if you like, the humans that being too busy. 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.279 We've looked at it from the perspective of like this external force. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:47.120 But what we started to realize is that actually what this is ultimately about is that work, the experience of work, actually the experience of just participating in society, is not just radically different to what it was, it's changing fast and is very unpredictable. 00:12:47.360 --> 00:13:02.799 And so the goal of the podcast, the goal of the newsletter as well, was to be our attempt to try to help ensure that humans have agency as these new chapters are being written. 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:15.200 And I will admit, you know, speaking personally, all that time back in 2020, I'll see if I can find the the original YouTube video that I recorded on this in 2020. 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:30.960 But I was banging on back then about what I saw then as robotics, AI, and automation, and how there could be like this convergence of these three forces, and how if we don't pay attention as humans, we could be all kind of like sleepwalking into irrelevance. 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:44.240 And I was very concerned about that then, and probably as more concerned about that now, but we really felt like humanity, remember, you know, you were in some of these discussions, Matt, and humanity working was the attempt to capture that. 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:47.519 And since then, that's basically all we've been doing. 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:57.120 The one thing I will say that has been a massive, massive shift though, is the degree to which now AI kind of is the conversation. 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.879 And I gotta say, I think that's I think that's important. 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.279 I just wrote uh an article about this that the three of us were sharing before, and I think we're in an interesting spot right now. 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:19.360 We're recording this what, four or five days, I think, since that story exited the world of X. 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:28.960 Believe you me, if you guys are not on X following the AI conversation, there is a very, very vigorous, very robust conversation that is happening every single minute of every single day. 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:36.879 But the conversation about AI in the mainstream is much more muted than that and is competing with all of the other things that are going on in the world. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.120 But over the course of the last four or five days, it's been the story, right? 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:59.200 And the reason it's been the story is we're recording this just after the person left Anthropic said that there were conversations inside Anthropic about there being a likelihood of, or well, there being, let's say, some form of likelihood that the AI that we're building could destroy humanity. 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:11.519 And then fuel being thrown on the fire by a current Anthropic employee who's fairly senior, saying, yes, we think it's at least 10% likelihood that it's going to kill all of us in the next decade. 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:25.759 And then over the course of the weekend, we had Dario Armadi, who's the CEO of Anthropic Weigh-in, say, this is very serious, they are all thinking about it, here are the steps that we think should be taken. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:33.440 And then in a really surprising move, Sam Altman and Elon Musk all saying, Yeah, agree with all that. 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.679 And, you know, the only thing that these people generally agree on is that they like suing each other. 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:43.360 But in this case, they were like, Yep, agree with all of that. 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.080 And since then, we've seen some subtly different takes. 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.200 I don't know if you you guys saw Satya Nadella's contribution on this, which is subtly different. 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.600 But right now, we're seeing this. 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:55.759 And this is the dominant conversation right now. 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.840 AI is the dominant conversation. 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.159 I'd love to get your guys' view on this. 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:17.600 One thing I will say about this is that regardless of the specifics of this conversation, I do think that there we might have reached an inflection point whereby a year ago the conversation might have been a little bit about deep fakes and political contributions and so on. 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:24.559 About six months ago, or even three months ago, the conversation was about data centers and the impact on the environment. 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.039 Today the conversation is about this. 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:42.720 I think we've now entered an era where um AI is becoming a full part of the overall narrative of the world, as it were. 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:50.000 In other words, it's the discussion about AI itself is starting to be mainstreamed with all of the positives and negatives that are associated with that. 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:50.960 Do you guys agree with that? 00:16:51.039 --> 00:17:01.600 Do you think this is now like a we're still gonna be talking about AI in a year's time, in two years' time, as part of mainstream conversation versus just a thing that people like to witter about on an X? 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:02.480 Do you think that's right? 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:04.079 I'm gonna say yeah.

00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:13.680 Um, I think Matt, you might have a different take on it, but I do think what once felt like edge case is now more mainstream. 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:15.440 What do you think, Matt? 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:15.920 Yeah. 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:17.200 Yeah, I agree. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:19.119 I think we were early. 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:44.880 But once it like hits the Today Show and the morning news coffee chats kind of thing where everybody has a take, that's why this story about an existential threat, for better or worse, is going to throw it into the mainstream because it's m easier to get that story going with fear than the potential, maybe. 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:55.920 So there might be some truth to the fact that it's more common now, but I don't know if it's because it's perceived. 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:03.359 It's probably the mainstream, it's probably the modern day, if it bleeds, it leads, you know, that kind of thing. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:03.839 Yeah. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.720 But do you see a world whereby in six months or a year's time we're going, no, actually it turns out it's really safe. 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:18.319 Nothing that you know, nothing to see here and we don't and we don't bother talking about it for another year or something. 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:19.519 I don't think that's like him. 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:23.039 Well, does it become like the new Y2K? 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:24.079 Right? 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.640 Like we thought all the computers were gonna explode. 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:32.240 Yeah, this one isn't that whole thing is very tricky, right? 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:38.160 Because a friend of mine has done research into like black swan events and things like that. 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:52.400 And one of the things that he points out to me is when things are perceived by experts to pose an existential threat, there aren't that many of those. 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:58.559 Like even across if you were to go back for, you know, since the dawn of civilization, right? 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:06.400 There have not been that many where whereby real existential threat was seen as as something possible, right? 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.440 The nuclear age is the obvious parallel. 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:20.160 And if you study the history of the nuclear age, maybe two or three times ever did we come really close. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.319 But we did come really close in the 80s. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:22.799 We did. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:30.319 And it took the actions of an individual to prevent what would have been effectively a nuclear apocalypse. 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:37.839 So the weird thing about predicting apocalyptic events is that if they happen, we wouldn't be here talking about it. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:44.559 If they don't happen, once I don't know, five, six, seven, eight of them stack up, we go, ah, we're fine. 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.240 But it's only five, six, seven, eight. 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:54.640 It's not like eight thousand possible apocalyptic events, and we've dodged all of them, so therefore we must just be good at dodging them, right? 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:56.480 That's the challenging thing with all of this, isn't it? 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.640 It's like I say to people about this, like, I don't know. 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.359 I can't make a statement that there's a 10% likelihood, right? 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.079 I can't make a statement that there's a 1% likelihood. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:09.440 Not realistically. 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:10.880 I don't have the data to show that. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:18.720 One of the things that annoys me about this debate is like when when people are estimating the likelihood of this thing, that's bollocks, right? 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:20.079 They don't know, right? 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.799 They're making a whole bunch of assumptions associated with this. 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.359 And it's not possible to know. 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:37.200 You're forward-projecting probabilities, and you're doing so in a system which is complicated to the point whereby we don't know what actions of governments will happen as a result of this. 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.240 We don't know what the actions of individuals will be as a result of all of this. 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:47.359 We don't know how we're going to adjust and adapt to society, we don't know what any of the individual players are going to do, and we don't know collectively what the players are going to do. 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.119 So we don't know what the likelihood is. 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.839 But what we do know is that it's not 100% and it's not zero, right? 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.559 And you guys and I were talking offline about this. 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:07.920 I feel like any if anybody tells you that the likelihood of anything is zero, that's telling you something about that human versus the versus the reality of the world in which we live. 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:22.640 But you know, Matt, you were on the call the episode that is in our feed just before this one with Jeffrey Moore, and Jeffrey was rationally pointing out that this stuff does sell, right? 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.640 Utopian narratives sell, dystopian narratives sell. 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:31.839 The sort of boring in the middle stuff doesn't really sell. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:44.000 But when you're policy making, doing so on the basis of either extreme is probably not a great way to make a policy. 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.799 So that's that's the challenge that that I think we we face among all of this. 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:59.759 Well, I think too, the piece that's really interesting is our our limitations of what we can imagine are caged in a little bit by our example. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:08.000 Right, so if you think about AI before two years ago, it's Terminator,

Jarvis, Hal, and the Borg. 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:10.000 That's what comes to mind for me, right? 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:16.319 So if you take the idea that most of the examples that we have, yeah, it gets the best of us. 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:24.880 You know, it's not the help that we thought, you know, iRobot, the the apocalypse robotic apocalypse, they always kill us in every story. 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.839 And you're just like, but then what do they do? 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.799 Because if if we're not here to interact with, what what are they doing? 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:39.920 We we have to take it that further step, like unless we know that they're mining the planet for resources or something like that for some other alternate universe. 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:40.319 Yeah. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.640 But we created this one on Earth. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:44.400 So what's the point of the thing? 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.039 I suppose it really depends on how important we think we are. 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:52.480 I mean, if we think we're important, then we project that as to being important to them. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.079 But I don't know. 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:55.440 These are interesting questions, right? 00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:04.319 We don't know whether we have zero examples of a highly intelligent, artificially created civilization. 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:12.559 So Except us, what do we do to things that we deem useless? 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:13.039 Yeah. 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.039 Like I I just saw the Odyssey, right? 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.160 And they're in the cave with with the giant, and they're like, you should talk to it now. 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.880 It's like, well, it's a little late for that, and would you talk to Ant? 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:21.279 Yeah. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:33.440 You know, like so and I know Bill, you've spoken about the more personal examples of these stories as well, things like her and you know, and so on, which approach this from a very different angle, right? 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:33.759 Yeah. 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:40.960 Yeah, you know, I think about the the list that you gave Matt of of those either TV series or movies. 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:46.960 The other one I would add, which is a little bit more intriguing and terrifying at the same time, is Battlest Galactica. 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.400 Oh yeah, yeah. 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.039 Right. 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:53.519 Um to your point around right, to what end. 00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:01.119 You know, when you think about the Cylons, it got really interesting to the point where humans couldn't necessarily detect who was a Cylon and who wasn't. 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:22.000 And, you know, at the same time you think about movies like her or even the creator, and there are these elements of people believing that there is sort of a a benefit, possibly, of placing consciousness in something that is otherwise deemed by us as unconscious. 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.240 And I think I'll go back to the word that you used, Paul, in your example. 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:33.200 You know, what spared us in the 80s from that apocalyptic outcome, you said was one individual. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:33.599 Yeah. 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:34.079 Right? 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.119 An individual. 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:48.000 And I'm gonna go back to that aspect of there's something about the human dynamic, the consciousness, whatever it is that caused that person to say, Hey, let's take a different approach, or let's pause, or whatever. 00:24:49.039 --> 00:25:04.160 My worry, you know, reading some of this stuff and reading about the hugging face incident and open AI and even you know anthropics agents of breaking out a little bit is I don't know if these entities have the ability to sort of pause and reflect. 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.319 I know we say that they can do reasoning, I know we say they can do reflection. 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.559 I've never been bought into that. 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.599 Because the shortest distance between two points is a straight line and that's all they see, right? 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.799 Um we we're speed bumps in a way. 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:23.680 And so I think about that, I think about shows like Foundation on Apple TV. 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.559 I mean, mate the Matrix, we were talking about that before. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:34.400 I think all of us are kind of revisiting these books we've read, these movies we've watched, these TV shows we've watched with a different eye. 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:39.519 And I can't say I'm upset about that because I hope we make it different choices personally. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.680 Yeah, yeah, gonna agree more. 00:25:42.480 --> 00:26:07.759 So we kind of talked about where we've where we've got to, and Bill and Matt and I have over the course of the last few months had a variety of these of these types of conversations, which led me to think, as we're kind of getting to our hundredth episode here, as I mentioned, what I want to do with this podcast, and then what I want to do with with humanity working more broadly. 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:13.440 And so that led me to thinking that we need more voices. 00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:29.359 And so I'm delighted to say that both as as well as Matt playing more of a role as in addition to sort of like questioner and kind of bringing thoughts out of me, Matt's gonna be participating much more actively, doing more external interviews, things like that as well. 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.279 And Bill's joining us too. 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.160 And so I'm incredibly excited about that. 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:41.200 You will know if you've heard the episode where I interviewed Bill about his excellent book. 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.799 I think his thoughts on this are phenomenal and needed. 00:26:44.880 -->

00:26:55.839 And I'll repeat what I said when I interviewed you the first time on this, Bill, that I think your book is the first book everybody should read on AI, and if they haven't read it, they need to go back to your book and then read the and then read the other ones again. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.000 Because it is a powerful view. 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.440 It is a view that is more timeless in nature. 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:10.319 It causes you to go back and ask, in some cases, some age-old questions about what is important to us. 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:15.599 What this technology can do is amazing, but what it can't do is probably at least as important. 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:27.279 And as we're inviting this technology into our lives, as we're replacing some of the things that we do with the things that that it does, we have to think seriously about how we do that so that we get the right outcomes. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.599 And you pose all of the questions that that should be posed about that. 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:39.119 And I know you agree with that, Matt, because I know that you have purchased copies of Bill's book and given it to people because you believe in that so much. 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.039 So Bill's going to be more a more active part of that conversation. 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:50.960 I think we'll have other three-way conversations like this, but then also bringing in external voices and have them contribute as well. 00:27:51.279 --> 00:28:03.519 So basically what that means is that if you are listening to this podcast and you don't subscribe to our Substack Humanity Working, I'd urge you to do it because you're going to see a lot more than you would there previously. 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:05.839 You can get this podcast on there as well, by the way. 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:13.599 So if you want to be like all in on Substack, you can do that, and the podcast will be delivered just at the same time as it would with any of your favorite podcasting platforms. 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:18.400 We'll still broadcast to the other podcasting platforms we're on as well. 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:23.680 But you'll see a lot more articles there, and I know that you'll see additional things on top of that as well. 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:36.079 And if we find people that we would like, in addition to us, if we find people that that would be interested in contributing to the humanity working Substack and bringing in yet another voice in, we'll invite them in and get them to contribute. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:48.880 If you're listening to this and you say, you know what, I really believe in this mission of ensuring that humans have agency as we move towards a future of work that is evolving, get in touch with us, right? 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:49.599 Let us know. 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:55.519 You can reach out to us on the on the Substack itself, and we can look at how we can collaborate with you as well. 00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.960 But my real hope is that when having you guys on board, we'll be able to get this in front of more people. 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:06.000 And I'm just really happy and grateful that you guys want to join me on the ride. 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:07.519 So thank you, Matt. 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.400 Thank you, Bill, for everything you've done already to help us. 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.279 Particularly, Matt, as I say, a hundred episodes. 00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.960 That's a serious commitment. 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.519 So want to thank you for that, and just really, really happy that we're going to be building this further. 00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:23.920 Before we wrap it up for today, any thoughts from from either of you guys? 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.960 I would just uh say congrats again on the hundred. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:34.000 And one of the things I realized, I went back and looked at when my hundredth was, I think it was September of 2022. 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:43.839 And one of the things I did, you guys probably don't know but one thing I did is I treated myself that summer to going back and listening to all hundred episodes in some form or fashion. 00:29:44.000 --> 00:30:02.160 And what was really fascinating is you go back, as you said, Matt, you understand this beautiful body of work that you've created, but you go back and the things you talked about then, it's amazing how much of an oracle you are and you were because you realize, wow, we predicted this so many years ago. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:11.200 So again, time is a compression challenge, but if you have time to dedicate to your both of you, go back and listen to some of those episodes. 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.240 It's a nice walk alongside the work that you've created. 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:19.119 And I'm glad in the summer of 2022 I took time out to listen to All 100. 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.440 Um, mainly because of the guests, right? 00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.279 The guests that you had as well. 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:24.799 It's it's a beautiful exercise. 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:27.440 So I encourage you to possibly consider that. 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.000 All right. 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:31.839 Plug for Bill's other podcast while we're at the while we're doing that. 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.160 So Coffee and Change is is the podcast that Bill's referring to there. 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:43.680 Super interesting, and as well as reading Bill's book, that made me aware of the podcast, and I just love live listening to episodes of that. 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.640 And as you point out, right, it's the it's the guests. 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.519 And sometimes the guests that on paper seem the most ordinary are the ones that are the most interesting. 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:53.359 So that's the other really cool thing about it. 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:54.720 And then what about you, Matt? 00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:56.960 Any other any sort of closing thoughts for us here? 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:14.000 I just want to thank you, Paul, for the conversations, because the ones that we did together, the interviews that you had transcend so many ideas and really bring together so many ideas, every one of them a learning experience from my view, whether I was participating or producing. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:34.480 It is an incredible body of work, and I think uh important to talk about these things and and really have long-form conversations about them because it's not easy, it's not straightforward, and it's something that humanity working is dealing with across the board, and people get that out of it and can really think about these things. 00:31:34.640 --> 00:32:00.400 I mean, Bill, your stuff as well like brings together just just philosophical, very thoughtful, uh present uh voice that we have to have going forward if we can't trust our leaders, if we can't trust tech CEOs across the board, maybe more conversations with more people in a broader sense is is where we can find the through line to navigate this well. 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:02.000 So I'm excited to be a part of this. 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:12.559 Matt's gut operations utopia, which is you like to call it your niche podcast, Matt, because it's uh yeah, because it's really centered around regulatory operations and and things like that. 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.000 But still very fascinating. 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.880 If you like going deep on something, then then that's the one. 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:26.079 And then what has become one of my favorite ones, not least because I'm a guest on it, but Peace of Chaos, P-E-A-C-E, Peace of Chaos. 00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:31.680 Um delightfully eclectic, I guess would be the way you should talk about it. 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:39.920 If you like tuning into something where you've got like literally no idea about the thing you're gonna listen to, then Peace of Chaos is a great way, a great one to listen to. 00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:42.480 So congratulations on those ones as well, Matt. 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.400 Yes, we're at 100. 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:49.440 Yes, we indulged ourselves a little bit looking back, but really this is a looking forward thing. 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.960 There's gonna be much more, and we're all really excited about that. 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.880 So thanks guys for joining me today, and thanks everybody for listening. 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.480 Humanity Working is produced by Matt Neal. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:06.720 If you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.839 It makes a huge difference in helping others find us. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:16.799 And don't forget, you can find all episodes and get our weekly newsletter at humanityworking. 00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:19.039 See you next time.