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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're screaming congrats to our girl, Kate Scott, who is just named the lead play by play voice for USA Network's WNBA coverage next summer, The Most Deserving. It's Thursday, October ninth, and on today's show, we'll be skipping the need to know and getting right to my conversation with retired swimmer and ten time Olympic medallist Alison Schmidt. Tomorrow is World Mental Health Day, so I caught up with Alison to talk about her experience seeking help for mental health, how her advocacy work has reshaped her own identity, why it's important to include vulnerability as a sign of strength, and redefining what self care actually means. I so appreciated Allison's willingness to speak so openly about her own struggles and challenges, and it's really clear that her advocacy on this topic has already had a huge impact on making sure conversations like these are no longer held only in private. So this is a good one. Stay tuned slices. Also, I was in New York City hosting a WNBA final celebration for iHeart on Wednesday night and watching Game three of the finals with a big old crew of hoopeads. So no Game three reaction today, but don't worry. You'll get that analysis plus a look ahead.
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Speaker 2: To Game four in tomorrow's show. All Right, My interview with Alison's coming up right after this.
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Speaker 1: Joining US now, she's the former captain of the US Olympic swim team, a four time Olympian, ten time Olympic medalist, and twenty five time medallist in major international competitions. A four time NCAA national champion, she helped her Georgia Bulldogs win the NCAA team title in twenty thirteen. She was born in Pittsburgh but raised in Canton, Michigan, and she was inducted into the Michigan.
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Speaker 2: Hall of Fame in twenty nineteen.
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Speaker 1: A leading voice and mental health advocacy, she graduated with her master's degree in social work from Arizona State University in twenty twenty three. A former longtime training partner of Michael Phelps under famed coach Bob Bowman, her fiance proposed to her using phelps four kids as assistants wearing T shirts at Red Wind.
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Speaker 2: Will you marry?
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Speaker 3: Me.
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Speaker 2: It's Alison Schmidt.
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Speaker 3: Hi, Alison, Hi, nice to talk with you.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, when's the wedding. Has it happened yet?
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Speaker 3: It has not happened yet, but by the end of the year. So I'm a little bit different though, because I feel like I'm the girl that never really thought about weddings or marriage and so I'm very nonchalant about it, and so is he. But I've always dreamed about kids and having twins, so I'm manifesting that right now.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so we're skipping the wedding straight to the pro creating.
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Speaker 2: Will Will Phelps.
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Speaker 1: And company and family and kiddos be a part of the wedding as well.
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Speaker 3: Of course. Yes, there's such a big part of my.
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Speaker 2: Life, ring bears and flower girls and such.
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Speaker 3: Like I said, we have been so nonchalant. We don't have the details yeah yet, And I mean all the type eight people might be like, wait, this is not okay, but I'm being this. I'm type being this, so you're.
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Speaker 2: Fine with it.
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Speaker 1: There are some good qualities about laid back, nonchalant people. I don't have any of those qualities, but I respect them and others. So in your intro, I listed off all your incredible accomplishments in the pool.
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Speaker 2: What kind of competitor were you?
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Speaker 1: Were you the sort of slow and steady worker, We'll see what happens. Were you pushed by compliments? Where you pushed by criticism, responsive to yelling, more responsive to support?
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Speaker 3: What was it like all the above? I ultimately got into sport because of the fun, like having the teammates, the camaraderie. And I definitely was pushed by the encouragement in A that is the affirmations, but B that's a little bit of the yelling as well. And so that's why I say all of the above.
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Speaker 2: So were you type B in the pool as well?
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Speaker 1: It feels like you'd need to have some sort of aggression and type A personality to be such a winner.
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Speaker 3: I think that my personality is type B A, so I still have that a personality, and so in the pool and in competing, I had that, But in other parts of my life I'm the B. But I also know my coach was very, very very type A, so I think he took over for that aspect of it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he projected onto you the necessary qualities to make it happen. Make it work, Okay, I want you to picture one of your biggest races.
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Speaker 2: Which one first came to mind.
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Speaker 3: The two hundred free in London twenty twelve Olympics. Why I think that it's the biggest race. Obviously because of media it's the biggest race first individual gold medal, But for me it was a big race because Stania and that podium at the end of when we get our medals, I looked on one side and saw my family cheering, looked on the other side, saw ten USA cheering, and in front of me, it's the national anthem in the flag being raised, and that just represents everyone back home that has supported and cheered me to the top of the podium. And in that moment and in that I realized that yes, I was the one that put in the work and did the work, but at the end of the day, it was all the support and all the help that I had that got me there.
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Speaker 2: Wow. And it's the one that stands out still was the first.
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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, they all have meaning, they all have different meanings, but that one when you had me picture, it is the one that came to mind.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, how often are you swimming these days?
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Speaker 3: I got in the pool on yesterday or two days ago, So I
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really like to do it for fitness and forget ant Hanne and if my friends are doing it, So it's definitely that social aspect, but I understand I am better at that than being on land, so I'm more If someone calls me up and says, hey, let's go do a swim, I'm like, okay, let's go.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Is it a calm and meditative space for you now that you're not competing or when you get back in, does your body sort of inhabit the feelings that you had when you used to get in to compete.
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Speaker 3: The pool is home and it is calming because I'm not getting yelled at and I don't have a specific workout. But at the same time, it's just no matter if I was competing or if I get in. Now is just a very familiar space, in a comfortable space.
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Speaker 1: You have become super active in mental health advocacy, and it's actually a cause that's been important to you dating back many years. You mentioned London, and it was at the London Olympics that you came home successful, a winner, a gold medalist, but found that you were suffering from depression. You eventually decided to talk to Michael Phelps, to talk to your coach Bob Bowman in early twenty fifteen. What was it like that time coming back, getting celebrated, getting heralded for your success, and maybe not feeling like how you were feeling matched what everyone else felt about your time in London?
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Speaker 3: Terrifying, absolutely terrified and every aspect. I didn't really understand what I was and there wasn't I mean, this is twenty twelve. There wasn't really much information about it, and I kind of dug myself into a deeper hole with comparison. Like they say now, and as I understand now, comparison is a theft of joy, and that comparison wasn't really recognizing that I was not feeling okay. It was more of comparing I have all of these great aspects of my life. What do I have to complain about? And now as I've gotten older and I've experienced more and talking at other people, I describe it as what you know in that part of your life is all you know. So, for instance, when a five year old drops or ice cream cone and it is the end of the world, it's the end of their world. As an adult, you'll understand and be like, we can just go get another ice cream, but they are not able to process that they can go get another ice cream in the joy that they're holding was just dropped.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you come back, it's twenty twelve. Everyone wants to celebrate you. Did you feel like it might be the standard Olympic letdown? Had you heard about the Olympic letdown that so many talk about and did you chalk it up to just that at first and then think it was something beyond that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: Again, that wasn't really talked about back then. It was still a taboo subject and I didn't really experience it too much after two thousand and eight because I went. I was thrown into a whole new experience. I went to college and
new friends, new living on your own for the first time, new environment, new state, new place, all of that. So when I came back from twenty twelve, I really had no idea what to expect. It was not prepped in any way what to expect, And as I was getting celebrated, I was very, very very grateful for getting celebrated. And I remember one time I excuse myself to the bathroom because I didn't want to cry in front of people. And at that moment is when I really realized that something was wrong.
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Speaker 1: Right, So you didn't talk to your family at first. You told Michael and Bob, your coach, and there was an incident that happened in your family that made you think, I really need to speak out more about this and talk about it, not only to the people close to me, but maybe even publicly.
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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So again, that took two and a half years until I even spoke about it. So it took a long time to speak about it. In speaking about it, it was scary, but it was also it was my explosion. So if you think about a rice cooker and if you don't take the top off and you explode, that was me at that moment. And so I just happened to explode at that moment with Michael and Bob and Keenan, and they listened and they really supported me in that, and they understood that I needed help and there's help out there and they can help me get that help. So that's what I did when I came back from that meat is I got help right away. I felt like there was still just a taboo with asking for help. Including myself. I judged myself for asking for help in those moments because again, what my life from the an outsider looks so perfect? So what could possibly be going wrong in my life? Why do I need help? And it took until another five months later when my cousin committed suicide where I realized this is a much bigger problem than just myself or just a few other people. And a lot of other people are out there, and a lot of other people are chasing perfection, which is what I was doing at the Olympic stage, and all these people chasing perfection lose track of in everyday reality, in the support that we have, and even the feeling of being loved. And if I could speak about my own experience, I hopefully can save a life out there so that someone else can continue living their life. That I mean, life is just so beautiful and everyone deserves happiness and joy and success, and so for them, for that person that survivor, as well as the families that have to grieve a loss of their loved ones.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk about back in twenty twelve, It doesn't feel like it's that long ago. But even then, there just weren't the same conversations, and so that information is so vital for people to recognize whether it is a depression or a feeling that comes on due to an event, an experience, or whether it's just chemical right that's the way their brain operates, and whether or not things are going great or poorly.
There is a potential to slip into those moments, and if you don't talk about it, you don't learn about it. It can feel very isolating. After talking to Michael and Bob and after telling your family, how did you decide to take control of that in your career? How did you manage the fact that you knew that you now had this to deal with in addition to your regular training and preparation for meat.
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Speaker 3: I think the first thing is understanding that you can take breaks, you can ask for help, and you can still be strong. All of that in the same sentence. I was able to get the support I needed from a professional level by going to talk to a therapist, and that was a little bit of weight off my shoulders, and I'm sure off the people I love shoulders. If I'm so called, I guess dumping something. Yeah, they might ask me every day, Hey, how are you doing? How are you doing, but talking to a therapist, it was Okay, I go see you every week, and then I don't see you again for a whole week, and so you can't ask me in my everyday life, from every day schedule how I'm doing, which honestly is kind of an annoying question that I would get a lot.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people who want to help and mean to help. But also there's something about the feeling that if you're going to reveal all these emotions, that the person you're talking to is trained and educated to help you process them in a way that even if your family is well meaning, they might not be. So what kind of tools did you acquire, if you're willing to share, what have you found most useful personally for managing your mental health struggles alongside your swimming.
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Speaker 3: I would say journaling is one, and for me, journaling isn't necessarily just writing everything down, but I also journal through pictures, and I love managing that I'm both at so going back now and like reading journals and even going back and looking at photos that I took and screenshots I took of quotes, et cetera. But self care is really what a big tool that I took out of therapy because I always thought self care was, oh, go get your nails done, go bake cookies. And what I now understand is self care is so much more than that, and it's really listening to yourself and listening to your inner self, understand what you need in that moment. And if you're able to do that with yourself, then when someone else asks you what you need, it's a lot easier to ask that than to bottle it up.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned this, but how do we sort of change the definition of strength to include being able to ask for help? That is an incredible strength, to let people know you're struggling, to ask for help, to be vulnerable in that way, and yet in a lot of places, it's still very stigmatized.
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Speaker 3: Understanding that life is much bigger than the moment you're in, or much bigger than this sport you're in. Understanding yes we are chasing perfection, Yes we are working hard, and yes we
want that perfection, but you don't have to be perfect in order to belong. You belong in this world for so many other reasons than being perfect. And I like to de describe it as you can tell maybe through this conversation. I like to use analogies a lot, and one of my favorite analogies is a puzzle and every puzzle piece is different. But if there's one puzzle piece missing, the whole puzzle is done. It's never completed. And so if you're able to really understand that you don't have to be perfect, and you can be your own puzzle piece throughout this game of life, then everything else will be complete and everything else will fall into order.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you bring up the word perfect a whole lot, and I understand.
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Speaker 1: In swimming there are tiny, little minute details that can make the difference between a winner or loss, can make the difference between a pr and you know, swimming slower than previous races. So it's important to pay attention to every bit of your body, to every down to the tip of your toes. And yet also understanding that perfection as a goal in life is impossible. How did you find a balance of saying I still want to win and I want to do as well as I can, but the goal can never truly be perfection.
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Speaker 2: It just has to be maybe a little bit better. As often as I can.
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Speaker 3: Be understanding what goal setting is into me, goal setting as a kid. I was not this kid, but this is an example is I'm an eleven year old kid and I want to make it to Olympics. Okay, so you go from here to here? What's all the in between? So what's all the steps? And so understanding what the journey is in the steps and the processes to those big goals and working on those little goals and little steps every single day is what gets you to that big step. And once you are to that big goal, as human beings, as competitors, there's always something next. There's always that next goal. You're never satisfied, and so really understanding that it's not necessarily about that destination so called, but the journey to get that destination.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we hear that a lot in talking to Olympic athletes in particular. I mean many athletes who have high goals and are high achieving, but those that play every single year and have more opportunities to win, I think feel it a little less than those that wait four years for this crowning achievement of what's been their life's work. I think some might ask, you, know, it's easy for you to say this because you already won. You already won so much so when you go in and give people a message life is about more than winning. Do you think you personally would have been able to accept that message before the medals.
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Speaker 3: Yes, because I did. I did in two thousand and eight. So in two thousand and eight is kind of what got me to the next Olympics two twenty twelve, to those medals that I won in twenty twelve. And that's because in two thousand and eight, I was knight by Woman hundreds, so I did not get to compete in finals and then Tunia Freestyle and that's what I used as my fuel and as my motivation for those next four years. And so I completely understand that we have egos. Every single human being, no matter if you're an athlete or not, has some type of ego, but really understanding how big this life is, because I'm sure there's people in the music industry that have never even watched the Olympics, and then there's me who doesn't completely understand the music industry. Yet we probably have very parallel LIFs that can understand each other, and so understanding who you are as a from the core and finding those connections rather than sitting back and saying well, I've been at the top of my sport or I've been at the top of my career and I know everything. Because even now, even being at the top of my sport, I still don't know everything.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, when you find that balance between being ambitious while also being satisfied, you can kind of be in that sweet spot of I know what I want and I know the work that it's going to take to get there.
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Speaker 2: But I also, like you said, it's the journey.
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Speaker 1: It's the respecting the everyday processes that can get you there. We got to take a quick break more with Alison Schmidt right after this. I want to talk about today's landscape of youth swimming. How do you think it compares to what it was like when you were growing up.
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Speaker 3: Youth sports in general is a whole nother pressure, and that pressure comes from a lot, I think from social media. We can't ignore the advances we have in technology in the social media, So how do we educate on that? And that's where we're not ignoring the fact that there's social media out there and that there might be body image issues or muscles don't look cool on TikTok, there might be some of those messages out there, But how can we educate that being strong is still sexy, being vulnerable is sexy, and all of that is still a great quality to have while encouraging others to find what they're passionate about and not have to mimic or compare to another person. But definitely comes back to the pressures that are real from social media and other media outlets as well.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of gift in everything being recorded these days. You can go back and watch all your swims and see how you did. Your family can go watch them later. But it also means that everything is watched doubly or multiple times, in a way that I think affects even sometimes what sports kids want to get into, and that I think is really tough. I've seen stories about girls picking their sport based on what the uniform looks like, understanding that they're going to be constantly photographed and videoed while doing it, which is something we never really thought about when I was growing up.
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Speaker 2: We just played what we loved.
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Speaker 1:
What surprises you when you talk to young people about mental health these.
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Speaker 3: Days, how open they are about it, which is great. They're open to talking in When I speak to parents or coaches. I say, just listen. That's a piece of advice that I love to give the older generations, because the younger generations love to talk and they will say anything, and they will say the truth. It's just the matter if someone's gonna listen to them. And so I really love how the younger generation is so open and honest, and I would love for them to have that support from the older generations to be able to feel supported through these tough times of puberty, of their teenage years, of middle school years, of the transition of going to college and out of college in all of that. But how do we support them by what they need? And they're telling us what they need.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've actually partnered with Surge by BSN Sports. It's a new initiative that's trying to help high school and college athletes in a more holistic way where you're looking both at performance but also at the community around them, emotional wellness, their mental health, like trying to look at the athlete as a whole being. How is working with SARG been for you and how are you kind of being a part of the conversations that they're trying to have.
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Speaker 3: I absolutely love our mission to as a holistic approach, and the tools that we give these coaches in these athletes, I think is so beneficial to help them succeed and not only help them succeed in their sport and get that metal or get that goal, but help prepare them for later in life, give them the confidence to be who they are in not having to conform to others to fit in. Because again, strength is beauty in confidence is beauty.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I think, as you get older, you understand that being unique and special and different is the thing that sets you apart from everyone and makes you actually truly desirable and interesting. But when you're a kid, you just want to fit in. You just want to be like everyone else. Anything that makes you stand out is tough. So it's those conversations of ensuring that kids understand that they can be confident in their differences too.
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Speaker 2: You know, you went.
00:24:05
Speaker 1: From being at the top of the world to now looking to find satisfaction in other places.
00:24:11
Speaker 2: And a lot of really elite.
00:24:13
Speaker 1: Athletes struggle to find a job once they're done with athletics, to figure out how to be competitive or compelled to work hard in a space that isn't quite the same. So how do you go from being the best in the world and having all of these skills that made you a great swimmer to doing something different?
00:24:29
Speaker 2: And do you have advice for maybe athletes that are.
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Speaker 1: Just going to come out of college and that's the end for them, or ending their pro career, who are figuring out the next step.
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Speaker 3: Letting go of that ego, understanding that yes, you may have been the best in your sport, but that doesn't mean you're the best in every aspect of life. And so if you're able to learn something from someone else, or if you're able to get have a mentor do that, that is so significant and has been a significant part of my transition into the real world, I guess everyone would say. But there's also a huge grieving period. There's a grieving period of not necessarily when I read online what grieving period is after this, it's I don't have an identity. I don't know who I am outside of sport. I never felt that way. It was more of I dedicated my life to this for so long, and I made all these sacrifices, as well as all these other people who made these sacrifices. So now it's almost like I have to do more for these other people who had these sacrifices. But what I realize now is my support system made those sacrifices because they loved me and that they wanted to see me succeed. They're not expecting anything in return, And so really letting go of that guilt that I felt. I don't know if anyone else feels that, but that guilt that I not only put my whole life on hold, but everyone around me put their life on hold for my success. So that was a huge grieving process to really get through and understand that I have come back to my core and who I am and do self core for myself, and then I'm able to radiate that love and radiate that hard work that the skills that I have learned through sport to be successful in any aspect of my life that I am now passionate about, which I'm lucky to find this team with Surge and really help empower these younger generations to continue in sport and learn resilience and learn confidence and really be proud of who they are.
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Speaker 1: When you have a bad day these days, which I'm sure you still do sometimes no matter how much work you've done. No matter how robust the toolkit, you're still going to have one of those days.
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Speaker 2: How do you.
00:26:57
Speaker 1: Handle it and how do you keep from being hard on yourself that that still happens.
00:27:02
Speaker 3: I'm still trying to learn, aren't we all. But I coming back to my core, and that's coming back to self care. Sometimes that's journaling. Sometimes that's going for a walk. Sometimes it's going for a swim, going into the gym, talking to someone, picking up the phone and calling my mom. It changes every day, but really understanding what I need and sitting with those feelings and understanding what I need in that moment is really what gets me through those hard times. And that doesn't mean that I don't cry, because sometimes I need that good cry, and I need that good cry to then look in the mirror and say you got this, You are strong, you are capable, and to get back up on my feet and try again. I was talking to some kids the other day and ask them what they're most proud about, and a lot of them said they
didn't really know. So I said, I'll go first, and I'm proud of myself because I am able to stand up after failure and I can tell myself. You can do hard things and then I'm able to continue on with my day and figure out how to get over that hump and to find my successes.
00:28:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:28:19
Speaker 1: I mean that's the key to all the work, right, is so that when the moment hits you say, I've been here before. Here's my set of tools, here's the one I need today, and here's how I'm gonna get myself out of this and get back on the right side of my day. Well, congratulations on your incredible success in the pool and now the success outside of it and all the work you're doing.
00:28:39
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for the time.
00:28:40
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you so much. It's great talking to you.
00:28:44
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Alison for taking the time. We got to take another break back in a jiff. Welcome back slices. We love that you're listening, but we want you to get in the game every day too.
00:29:00
Speaker 2: So here's our good game play of the day.
00:29:02
Speaker 1: Follow Allison on social media and follow a couple of mental health related orgs we love as well, like to write Love on her Arms and No Me the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
00:29:12
Speaker 2: We'll link to all three of them in the show notes.
00:29:14
Speaker 1: We always love to hear from you, so hit us up on email, good game at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Do it right now, scroll down five stars, tell us you love us. It really helps, I promise, and it's super easy. Watch Filling your mental health toolbox with tools, rating five out of five ways to get right review. It's so important to listen to your body and your mind and have go to tools for those moments when things feel particularly overwhelming or those days when you just can't seem to get out of your funk. I've got a few go tos when my news watching or news scrolling suddenly hits too hard, and they include putting down my phone, going on on a long walk with one of my dogs, getting out in nature, lying down somewhere quiet, and listening to Taylor Swift's Folklore that album just seems to do the trick for me, or doing box breaths and doing one or all of those right when I feel the darkness or overwhelm coming on keeps me from syncing into it. So start thinking about your own tricks and tools ahead of time, so you've got a plan, and remember you can always reach out to friends and family. Community and connection are the best way to power through those tough times.
00:30:31
Speaker 2: Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, y'all. See you tomorrow. Good game, Allison, Good game.
00:30:37
Speaker 1: To all the progress made in destigmatizing mental health.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: Few bad days. You know it's normal to have them, but doesn't mean they don't suck.
00:30:47
Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer.
00:31:13
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.
00:31:15
Speaker 1: Production assistance from Avery Loftist and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain