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00:00:01
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Gail Troberman.
00:00:03
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Daryl Lee. And this is Gay Eye.
00:00:06
Speaker 1: Because all marketing.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Is definitely not created equal.
00:00:13
Speaker 3: Today on Gay Eye, we are going to go on a journey to explore the state of gay TV. Gay characters, gay writers, gay filmmakers, gay producers, directors. Are we in the spotlight? Are there great, amazing stories being told? Or have things dimmed a bit? And we expect to see some amazing things.
00:00:35
Speaker 4: I think I'm hopeful because we know the gay audiences are big and loyal and interested in brands who are entertaining. So surely even more interested in storytelling that's entertaining. So I think we're going on a treasure hunt.
00:00:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, Daryl, let's go on a treasure hunt. I love that.
00:00:56
Speaker 3: You know, it's been about a year since the phenomenon of heated rivalry. I would imagine with a breakout unexpected indie hit like that capturing the world's imagination. and incredible audience growth, the young, elusive Gen Z audience.
00:01:13
Speaker 1: I'd imagine there's got.
00:01:15
Speaker 3: To be a whole lot more investment going into gay characters, gay films, gay series. I'm hoping we're going to find some incredible content as we go on The Sons.
00:01:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
00:01:27
Speaker 4: I mean, it does seem like business case has been made so resoundingly. And I think it arrived where we went from indie to wild commercial hit, right? This couldn't be more mainstream, couldn't be more in the center of culture. We see so much social content that's queer-friendly and queer-positive and from gay creators that it feels like there's so much appetite for some really good storytelling. So we haven't seen a slate. It's hard to find slates. I know we've got researchers farrowing away. We are going to get some help from people who actually follow the entertainment industry, but I'm sure we're going to find a great flowering of gay creativity because the stories are interesting and brands should be interested in those stories. And we have so many platforms where those stories can be told. So I'm excited, but I'm also a little trepidatious because it doesn't seem like there's a slate anywhere that we.
00:02:26
Speaker 2: Can just go to and look at. So we're going to have to piece it together.
00:02:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting as we were doing some research for this episode on gay eye about gay TV.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: There's no one really doing the clear roundup.
00:02:37
Speaker 3: So I'm excited to dig in and see, you know, what is the state of gay TV this season and where is it heading?
00:02:43
Speaker 1: Hopefully there's a lot of exciting watching in our future.
00:02:46
Speaker 2: And let's head off some of the, you know, some people who are listening are going to go, gay TV?
00:02:51
Speaker 5: What decade are these two in? By gay TV, we mean stories in the center of culture that create water cooler conversations. So, yes, it's probably not all on TV. It's probably mostly not on TV, on streaming mainly, but also on YouTube and YouTube. you know, whatever your content consumption platform is, but we're looking for stories. We're not just looking for memes and posts and asides or, you know, cultural comments. We're looking for people who are telling stories about gay life with gay characters.
00:03:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:03:27
Speaker 1: Scripted reality.
00:03:28
Speaker 3: We just want to see what's going on in content and culture. And like you said, uh, where the video content lands, we'll see. But the great news is hopefully whatever amazing shows are being created by LGBTQ creators and for mainstream audiences, the beauty of the world we live in today is there should be no shortage of places to find and watch this programming too. So I'm excited to talk today. We've got some amazing guests on with us.
00:03:57
Speaker 2: We do.
00:03:58
Speaker 1: Bernardo Sim.
00:03:59
Speaker 3: Bernardo is one of the people, the few people I think, who's really been covering the LGBTQ cultural content, media, film, TV landscape for quite some time. He's the former staff editor and writer at Equal Pride. So he's going to bring a lot of amazing insight to this space, both past, present, and hopefully looking towards the future.
00:04:20
Speaker 4: I think what Bernardo is doing is like a summary of this expanding and complex ecosystem. We can't look at a slate because it's not in one company's purview anymore. It's across the entire distributed digital ecosystem. So it's great to have journalists who are trying to pull it all together from all the different places where culture is made. And we also have one of the pioneers in gay storytelling and in gay business leadership, Damien Pellicone, who is the CEO and co-founder of Reverie, one of the few American LGBT media companies.
00:04:58
Speaker 2: It's streaming. It's a fast network, ad-supported.
00:05:01
Speaker 4: So really has to do the hard work of getting brands to support content programming. And Damien's going to tell us about not just what he has on his slate, but also what it means to have gay programming in a time when brands are being cautious.
00:05:19
Speaker 2: And all the brands that he works with somehow different and can be learned from them. So very excited to have Damien on. really a pioneer and still at the vanguard.
00:05:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, Reverie is doing incredible work in, you know, original content production and creation. Reverie is leading the way. And I think what they're proving is it works. So a great story to tell there.
00:05:45
Speaker 2: We don't want to start with the negative.
00:05:47
Speaker 4: We want to start with the positive because it feels like there's a little in the quiet time we're in where people are more silent than they should be about LGBT support and brands have gone quiet.
00:06:02
Speaker 2: And that seems to be a
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theme and, you know, it's going to be a well-trodden theme.
00:06:06
Speaker 4: And I'm sure it's going to be the theme of this whole season.
00:06:07
Speaker 2: It's been the theme of a couple of episodes.
00:06:09
Speaker 4: I want to start with the positive, which is it feels like not in quantity, but in quality and in attention and in cultural impact, queer, gay, LGBT film content in general is having a bit of a moment. Like if I see another thing about La Bola Negra, I think I'm going to stop going onto social media. I mean, I'm excited to see it and I know it just got the People's Choice at Toronto, and those guys, those hobbies are everywhere.
00:06:42
Speaker 2: But it does feel.
00:06:42
Speaker 4: Like there's this attention now to gay content, which is a moment, is a positive moment.
00:06:50
Speaker 2: There's something going on that we should celebrate. Or is that too positive?
00:06:54
Speaker 6: I completely agree with you. And I think multiple things can be true. And it is a difficult time for queer media, let's say. We do have a lot of shows that are not coming back for another season. And there's a lack of explanation. even though they performed well in numbers and although they were critically acclaimed. I mean, we even saw now we have season two of Adults that just came out. And, you know, a lot of audiences seem to love it. We're still waiting for season three renewal. But you're correct that that has translated into, I guess, especially indie filmmakers, like, fighting back and focusing on the quality, as you said. And we're getting these, like, fantastic projects as a result. La Bola Negra being one of them, which... has been picked up by Netflix, but it wasn't a Netflix project. It's just picked up distribution. Same with Jordan Firstman's Club Kid, which was picked up by A24. Also getting critical acclaim, winning awards in festivals, and slated to come out, I believe, in the last three months of the year. So it's a very exciting moment. Also, indie projects, we have some TV shows coming back this year and next year. So yeah, I agree with you that we're having less queer content, but the quality seems to be up for sure.
00:08:13
Speaker 2: And getting a lot of attention, but I suppose you're right. The reason it's getting so much attention is.
00:08:17
Speaker 4: Because corporate media, traditional media, big business, something like the big players, and I say this having been in corporate agencies my whole life, So I'm the last person to go against corporate capitalism, but it does feel like corporate capitalism lost a bit of its courage and the Indies are fighting back.
00:08:36
Speaker 2: And that's why we're excited. But so, so.
00:08:39
Speaker 4: Things like Boots not being given a second episode.
00:08:44
Speaker 2: So Netflix can buy La Bola Negra, but not re-up its own show, which is, I thought was such a great show about a gay Marine. Like, how much better can you get?
00:08:54
Speaker 6: Even Prime Video took
so long to renew overcompensating, which also got a great audience score. However, we feel about these players are getting great responses. And just the waiting, even hunting-wise, was such a hit for them. And it took a while for it to renew. It's just an interesting moment that we're seeing where they're being careful for sure.
00:09:20
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Daryl, the idea of sort of indie, right?
00:09:24
Speaker 3: Fringe over here are really cool in the indie arts world for this sort of what we perceive to be a sliver of the community. But we're seeing 41% of shows canceled. And a lot of them are the shows where there really are lead characters and plot lines that develop around these important lead characters, like on a show like Hacks or things like that.
00:09:51
Speaker 1: Why do you think that? Do you agree?
00:09:52
Speaker 3: And if so, why do you think that that's happening?
00:09:55
Speaker 1: Is it just coincidence that shows have.
00:09:57
Speaker 3: Run their course, Yellow Jackets, Axe, etc.? Or is it, or is something else going on?
00:10:03
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yellow Jackets is premiering its final season, fourth and final season in November. Yeah, November of this year. I've been asking the same question you just asked me. It's such coincidence, but like Euphoria, Hacks, Yellow Jackets, You know, all these shows that have been running for quite a few years and had so much prominent queer visibility and representation are coming to an end coincidentally.
00:10:29
Speaker 7: This year, next year, last year even.
00:10:32
Speaker 6: I do think with Hacks and with Euphoria, it was kind of, yeah, this is ending now. But I do think with other shows, it's more of like a decision. And then it feels a little weird. But it reminds me of the dip that we saw when Pose came to an end. And suddenly there was no other show that supplemented the trans representation on TV. So one show caused this like almost 100% dip in trans representation on TV. And now we're seeing with just queer characters in general, because all these shows are ending. It just reminds me of that cliche phrase, at first they come for da-da-da.
00:11:13
Speaker 7: And then they come for... Like, it's, you know, it's come.
00:11:16
Speaker 6: People that didn't care about trans representation, now it's coming for us, you know?
00:11:21
Speaker 2: That we're just disappearing off of TV.
00:11:23
Speaker 6: It just reminds me of that huge dip in how jarring that was. And now this is getting a lot of attention, too, because there's so many shows, so many characters.
00:11:32
Speaker 7: So many... And yeah, we're not.
00:11:34
Speaker 6: We're getting heated rivalry. Hunting-wise... That's kind of it. There's a few others, but it's not a lot. And Yellow Jackets, you're right, I think is the last one to end and feel momentous.
00:11:50
Speaker 4: We're getting, remember, heated rivalry, we have to say it, or everyone who's listening is Canadian.
00:11:58
Speaker 2: Canadian. We love Canada.
00:12:02
Speaker 4: And so we're seeing, you know, this is the thing that I have noticed in my own viewing, which is, proud that polish series about a gay guy who and you know has his sister dies and he takes over guardianship and parenting of her baby there's the boyfriend the boyfriend is a reality tv show in japan of gay men in a house trying to get a boyfriend in japan season.
00:12:29
Speaker 2: Two so.
00:12:31
Speaker 4: It is a very American phenomenon that's happening right now. It's a very American phenomenon and we all need to look very carefully at ourselves in this marketplace and go, why are we making dumb business decisions? Because it's good business to be in with the LGBT community.
00:12:51
Speaker 2: We're brand loyal. We're influencers. We're advocates. We really brand ourselves so we're very familiar with and accessible to brands.
00:13:02
Speaker 4: And then in content, gay stories are gold mines as heated rivalry has shrunk.
00:13:08
Speaker 2: You keep saying audience scores were high.
00:13:10
Speaker 4: I knew when they announced that film, oh, it's a finale film.
00:13:13
Speaker 2: I'm like, you, Traders? Yeah. But Traders is going on and Heartstoppers is stopping. Traders is a great show that has queer people in it and Ellen. Heartstoppers is about gay characters, but it's being stopped, you know? So I think the.
00:13:31
Speaker 4: Business case is clear, but maybe we need to make the business case clearer.
00:13:35
Speaker 2: So let's take something that was shut.
00:13:38
Speaker 4: Did Boots deserve to get a second season based on its audience score?
00:13:42
Speaker 8: 100%.
00:13:42
Speaker 2: Agreed, 100%.
00:13:46
Speaker 1: So Damian, we've got to bring you in on this.
00:13:49
Speaker 3: At the helm of Reverie, I think you're doing some of the most incredible work and probably some of the most prolific work and one of the biggest voices, I think, for the importance of gay content for gay audiences, from gay creators, featuring gay talent, telling gay stories. So what's your take on the state of gay TV?
00:14:13
Speaker 1: Where are we at?
00:14:14
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, thank you so much for that lovely introduction.
00:14:17
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so flattered.
00:14:19
Speaker 9: And it's so wonderful to be on this show with such an icon like you, Gail.
00:14:22
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my God, I've followed your work for so many years.
00:14:26
Speaker 9: As we're having this conversation, folks at home who are just listening on audio, I'm sitting in a hotel room because we just finished a really wonderful ad week, advertising week here in New York City. This was a very much a topic of discussion with a lot of different brands and agencies.
00:14:40
Speaker 1: But look, you know, I think.
00:14:42
Speaker 9: With Reverie and everything that we have been putting out into the world, and I always still call us a startup, even though we're 11 years old, right? But this
is how long it takes, especially in media, especially in queer media, for folks to start really paying attention to not just the work that we're creating, but our programming and all of the amazing stuff that we've been doing, the audience that we touch.
00:15:04
Speaker 1: And look, I'm remiss to say we're not a small voice. I don't use the word niche.
00:15:09
Speaker 9: I don't use the word minority because we're the third largest consumer group in the United States. You know, it's white, Hispanic, LGBTQ, African-American, AAPI, and we're worth $ 1. 7 trillion in disposable income in just the United States alone. So that is definitely a metric and an audience that no matter what brand you are, you should be, if you want to future proof your business should be paying attention to. And look, in the world that we live in, specifically in the free ad supported streaming space, fast or ad video on demand space, where we rely on audiences to watch our content at scale, and we rely on our advertisers to help us underwrite and support through, you know, buying those 15 and 30 second ads that you see in our commercial breaks, we see obviously a very different approach to than a subscription video-on-demand streamer would, and a major studio.
00:16:03
Speaker 1: And it's because, you know.
00:16:05
Speaker 9: I believe, and so much of what we do at Reverie, we believe that, especially in the United States specifically, that folks should have access to the content and be able to see themselves represented, no matter what your socioeconomic background is.
00:16:18
Speaker 1: I wish that were true outside the United States.
00:16:20
Speaker 9: Unfortunately, we just don't make the same advertising dollars that we do. It's just we don't have the scale of audience internationally outside the.
00:16:27
Speaker 1: U.S., but our focus is always the U.S.
00:16:30
Speaker 3: First.
00:16:30
Speaker 9: And what I personally see as an outside looking in, a perspective with all the major studios and the major aid streamers, so much of this, and it's the same whether you're in subscription and you're a major streamer or not, your reverie, and you're an ad-supported network like we are, is this fear of brand safety and this fear of what is appropriate to all audiences. So much of what my team does and what we have to accomplish, whether it's in our programming, our distribution, our ad sales, or just the development of new shows and new talent, is to prove to not just new audiences, but our advertisers, our buyers, And even the distribution endpoints that we distribute our live channels to, that we are brand safe. And I know that sounds absolutely insane in today's world, in 2026, when we're only talking about drag kings with our big show, King of Drag, or we're only talking about stand-up comedians with our show, I'm Dead, or even my talk show, Mic Drop. But there is still this major hurdle of actually helping educate both audiences and And, you know, the B2B community on what brand safety really is. And I think regardless of, you know, you're an agency, you're talent, you're development, you're a filmmaker, you're, you know, in advertising, marketing, that is the first roadblock. I mean, you know, case in point, look at what happens when we, and I can speak from experience, place an ad on Instagram or Facebook. and what is flagged as adult content when it's just two men holding hands or two women embracing each other or someone who happens to be visibly transgender or who is very stealth and transgender. There is still this stigmatization, and there is still, unfortunately.
00:18:21
Speaker 1: The other side.
00:18:23
Speaker 9: That we're constantly having to fight, especially in today's administration, where we're still fighting for our own existence.
00:18:43
Speaker 2: I mean, it's such an interesting concept, brand safety, right?
00:18:46
Speaker 4: Because Gail and I, me on the agency side, Gail on the client side, were mature enough to know when brand safety was, you know, trying to get Mark Zuckerberg to stop brands from being advertised next to neo-Nazi posts or, you know, white supremacist reactions to Black Lives Matter. And now it really saddens me to hear that brand safety has become a way to filter out positive difference, whether it's LGBTQ or marketing or any. I feel like that's a shift because you're helping to explain something which we are so confused by on GayEye, which is.
00:19:27
Speaker 8: The 1.7 trillion is 1.7 trillion. And it's very good money. just to be perfectly frank, right?
00:19:37
Speaker 4: From a consumer perspective, it comes with an enormous amount of loyalty, the ability to appreciate brands and quite.
00:19:44
Speaker 2: A lot of disposable income.
00:19:46
Speaker 4: And just, it feels like the business case for the gay audience is, so clear, but something has held it back now. We don't want to talk about the administration because that too shall pass soon.
00:19:56
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:19:56
Speaker 4: But there is something I think deeper, which Trump tapped into, which is a little bit of a cultural reaction against risk or something that explains why brands are going, right, I can see 1.7 trillion. I know I have this on my finance brand, financial services brand, or on my consumer brand, or on my entertainment brand. I obviously have gay consumers, but I'm afraid to be putting.
00:20:23
Speaker 2: Bizarre.
00:20:24
Speaker 4: I love that you're so clear about this, because that explains now why you're successful.
00:20:28
Speaker 2: So congratulations.
00:20:29
Speaker 4: But like, what do you do to brands to say, you will be next to queer content? That's the point. Like, that's perfectly safe for these very legitimate reasons.
00:20:40
Speaker 1: To help answer that question.
00:20:42
Speaker 9: It's funny, because I feel like my job now as CEO of an LGBTQ media company is to celebrate the ones who are doing it right. Use that case study to just You
know, basically go evangelize, in this case, to the agency and the brand community about look at what, and I'll use my, you know, this is our biggest case study is McDonald's. McDonald's is 365 with us. We're in our fifth year of working with them as a partner. Lexus is 365 with us. We're in our almost ninth year of working with Lexus consistently, right? And these are brands that understand the value of this audience, speaking to them directly, even if it's just with media, even if it's just with your 15 or 30 second ad, even if, you know, I know tide shift and budgets shift and they don't always have money to underwrite, give or take the quarter, give or take the year. But the idea that you're showing up in authentic spaces consistently all year round is proof point enough. And they obviously, you know, it's funny, like we get a scorecard from McDonald's every year. I can happily say that we index almost 20, 30% over what the average is in ROAS, return on advertising spend.
00:21:53
Speaker 1: In CTV every year consistently, if not more. Some years we've done more. And why is that? And there's a, you know, like we know, I know the three of us.
00:22:01
Speaker 9: Know, but we do know it's because when you have sentiment and you drive sentiment, you have brand that equals brand loyalty.
00:22:09
Speaker 3: So Damian, that's the advertising side. Actually, really exciting. You guys have some incredible shows and content. And You've got terrific measurement tools. So marketers out there, there's some great ways to partner and reach the gay audience with contextual relevance and incredible stories and gay content. But Bernardo, when we look over at TV and mainstream broadcast networks and even some of the cable networks, it seems a little bit harder right now. There's really only a couple of networks with a consistent presence and LGBTQ audience characters and stories.
00:22:47
Speaker 1: What's your read on that?
00:22:48
Speaker 6: I'm with you that I don't even think of it as out of a studio anymore. I just think it's like a little original almost. But yeah, I guess they are on cable. If you tune in on FX.
00:22:58
Speaker 3: I know, it's also messy because where you watch has nothing to do with where they actually are, but.
00:23:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And HBO has.
00:23:07
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, gotten a little diluted with all the streaming service content. Apple TV, I think, is the new HBO.
00:23:15
Speaker 3: Right.
00:23:15
Speaker 7: The lean quality. They just won the most Emmys.
00:23:18
Speaker 10: Yeah.
00:23:19
Speaker 2: With, what, three, four shows? Mm-hmm.
00:23:21
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:23:22
Speaker 6: Yes.
00:23:22
Speaker 2: Kind of wild.
00:23:24
Speaker 6: And I think it's also an interesting place for queer characters, much like HBO was in its heyday, of, like... Pramil Tillman is a gay man and he plays a villain in Severance.
00:23:36
Speaker 2: But it's not about that. Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker 7: You know what I mean? But it's not front and center, I guess, the storylines.
00:23:43
Speaker 6: But they're there. You know, the main character of Pluribus is a bisexual woman. But, you know, we don't think of it that way. That's also an interesting conversation.
00:23:53
Speaker 3: Which is kind of, it's right, it's that double edge. It's good in that we're maybe normalizing, right? Because I think so much of what's important here is that we're creating visibility for, particularly for young audiences to see their world, their lives reflected. And I think for people who may not have someone in their immediate world or their life to normalize these characters that are LGBTQ or bisexual, queer, and to see those as just common part of life, I think really helps.
00:24:23
Speaker 2: Okay, so maybe, I don't.
00:24:24
Speaker 4: Want to draw any conclusions, but Apple seems to be immune to the political and cultural moment. What if, We said to brands, because it's so rich, let's be clear, right? Apple's one of the, you know, if not the richest company in the world.
00:24:36
Speaker 1: Also happened to have had a gay CEO. How many of those are there?
00:24:40
Speaker 4: Yes, has the gay CEO, gay CEO. And we support and recognize Tim. But brands can do bold things. So can brands step in here? So for example, wild idea, could, I don't know, Ally Bank or the U.S.
00:24:57
Speaker 2: Marines or could a brand bring boots back?
00:25:01
Speaker 3: So Damien, do you feel like things are coming back or if they're not, what's it going to take?
00:25:07
Speaker 9: Yeah, look, I mean, whether it's, you know, traditional filmmaking and television or the advertising and marketing community, we all felt that dip this past two years. It's undeniable, you know, and a lot of that comes from fear, anxiety, FOMO, just, you know, a lot of pent up fear within, you know, the creative community.
00:25:27
Speaker 2: As a whole.
00:25:28
Speaker 9: Not knowing what was, you know, and again, brand safe or not, you saw a huge regression about utilizing that term, diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging, DEIB or DEI.
00:25:39
Speaker 1: And it's a lot of it is just fear-based.
00:25:41
Speaker 9: But it's interesting, though, because I do feel that there will be a swing back. And I, you know, I'd be remiss to say, hopefully after this next election cycle, we do see that swing back in the right direction because hopefully.
00:25:57
Speaker 1: with.
00:25:57
Speaker 9: The right representatives and the right positions of leadership, we stop weaponizing being trans. We stop weaponizing being a minority. We stop weaponizing being LGBTQ in this country. We know it's all BS. And we know that most of the politics that are involved, unfortunately not to go back into politics, like it's swinging in the wrong direction. It's not based in any kind of factual sense. Science, like none of this makes any sense. And, you know, and I'd be remiss to say, like, you know, as a non-binary CEO and someone who I
don't consider myself transgender, but I am very much the biggest advocate. I have so many close friends who are trans men and trans women, best friends in this world. who I get to be in rooms that they don't get to be in, and I'm advocating for them on all of our behalf. But it's like, whether you're gay, lesbian, or bi, we need to be in those rooms and in those spaces really defending our trans brothers and sisters, because they don't necessarily have that opportunity or the voice that sometimes we do.
00:27:00
Speaker 1: And so I don't take that privilege for granted.
00:27:02
Speaker 9: And I think that is something that Whether you're a writer, whether you're a chief creative officer at an agency, whatever title you hold, you need to recognize like the power of what your influence can have in storytelling and how we can bring those numbers back up and the percentage and the perception of what everyone is doing. And like Chris Rodriguez, our chief creative officer, one of my co-founders, he was just on a panel yesterday at Adweek talking about the Madonna marketing effect and with absolute with mkg who did the big times square activation like grinder and mr other big brands who are part of this i'm like undeniable like the response that those brands who partnered with madonna on the release of confessions 2 had and that impact that they had i mean there's still grinder still selling a tailored merch line with madonna like on their website like those numbers and those statistics are undeniable. And I think if you're a mainstream brand and you're listening to this, go find Reverie, go find anyone who is doing this and doing it right, because we can show you that ROAS and that ROI. And I truly believe with Heated Rivalry and other great storytelling that audiences and young audiences are hungry and starved for this now more than ever.
00:28:23
Speaker 4: That's the antidote to my cynicism, because I'm in the Don't worry about politics. We're in a much worse place than we think because Trump is actually just a symptom of a risk aversion in business that I've seen kind of indifferently to Trump where people, where brands have become less brave just about everything.
00:28:42
Speaker 2: I don't really accept it. On this podcast, we're like, if you're not brave as a brand, you're dead or dying. It's true.
00:28:50
Speaker 4: We talk about Gen Z. Gen Z aren't kids anymore. They're adults and they're consumers and they do not in any way respect inauthenticity. So if you're messing around with boring corporate advertising, you're pissing them off and they will walk away. So I think the bravery may not come back even when Trump goes. It's just like, oh, we're still in the same complacency. What you're doing is saying, okay, I hear your risk aversion. I'm going to give you calculated risk. I can calculate the return on this. So, and it is such a, I'm so glad we've had you on. We asked you on because you're the gay media lone star.
00:29:28
Speaker 1: Oh,
thank you.
00:29:29
Speaker 4: Certainly in video entertainment, there's obviously prints and stuff.
00:29:34
Speaker 2: But you're the model.
00:29:35
Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely the model because we can be as entertaining or as glamorous as we are, like as an audience and as a community, there is nothing more entertaining than us. But we could also be the poor, impoverished, oppressed audience.
00:29:50
Speaker 8: Entertaining people, or we could build businesses and economic power that says, yeah, without us, you don't have growth in an economy.
00:29:58
Speaker 2: And you're doing that second thing. So kudos to you.
00:30:02
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. You're so kind.
00:30:03
Speaker 9: I mean, it's interesting because it's like, it's all math. This is all math now. We can calculate this.
00:30:10
Speaker 1: And so it's really just about someone believing in us.
00:30:14
Speaker 2: That's it.
00:30:14
Speaker 9: Like, I just need someone on the other side to believe in the science, to believe in the math.
00:30:19
Speaker 1: We built our own ad tech.
00:30:21
Speaker 9: We went so far as to like, we had a little bit of a hiccup with Trade Desk. We still don't necessarily like them. They flagged us as not brand safe. They flagged us as, you know, reseller.
00:30:31
Speaker 1: Interesting.
00:30:31
Speaker 9: I spoke about it very publicly in an ad age article last February. And still today, I will not sing their praises or celebrate them at all.
00:30:39
Speaker 4: That actually brings up the question I've been sitting on this whole conversation, both for you, Damian, and Bernardo. Why is there a lack of advertisers for queer-specific media? Because you'd think gay media is the one place where a brand could show up without getting a lot of mainstream attention. So why aren't they? Because that seems like the one place that would be protected from cutting back.
00:31:04
Speaker 9: Just takes a little leap of faith and a little investment.
00:31:07
Speaker 1: A little investment for them, a big investment for us. A little bravery. Yeah, it's the bravery.
00:31:12
Speaker 4: And I think, I tell you, brands are all coming to agencies saying, how do we make entertainment storytelling and not advertising? And so the fact that we can go and say, well, here's a creative partner. that knows how to make great storytelling, it happens to be queer, but it's mostly just great storytelling, then you have a brand sponsorship model already. I mean, the surprising thing I learned with my AI is how much of your content is underwritten by brands anyway.
00:31:39
Speaker 2: In fact, all of it. It's kind of amazing.
00:31:41
Speaker 1: Yes, go to our originals.
00:31:43
Speaker 9: You'll see I'm Dead brought to you by Verizon, King of Drag brought to you by Elf, IVL, the World Pride Ball brought to you by McDonald's.
00:31:50
Speaker 1: The labels there.
00:31:51
Speaker 4: Amazing.
00:31:51
Speaker 2: Sticks.
00:31:52
Speaker 9: And what's amazing is that, like, regardless of that one either IRL or release event, it's in perpetuity.
00:31:58
Speaker 1: That brand's attached to that piece of content.
00:32:00
Speaker 8: Right.
00:32:00
Speaker 1: And they're integrated.
00:32:01
Speaker 9: So they're still getting rewards from this, even light years after the campaign. So I am very happy and excited about everything that we've created at Reverie, and I'm more excited for what we're about to do in the future.
00:32:12
Speaker 7: And I think a lot of people have that faith.
00:32:15
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker 6: I think it's a combination of, you know, media and especially print media. You know, a lot of our brands are still print brands. Our magazine still has a print issue. The Havocat has a print issue. Even online, there is a lot of concerns around media in general, queer. Otherwise, we did see this lack, this exodus of sponsors. On Latino, we saw with Latino publications, with Latino brands, We saw it with Black-owned brands.
00:32:47
Speaker 2: We literally just saw, I believe, BET News. The news website for.
00:32:51
Speaker 6: BET News is, like, erasing everyone's work. I believe last week all the writers were very concerned about that because a lot of their portfolio was there. So I do see it as, like, a bigger thing, and queer media is just one of those pillars. And then I also think there's the impact of AI.
00:33:10
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:33:12
Speaker 3: One of the things I love about our premise for Gay Eye is it's the one show where, yes, we zero in on what's interesting and fascinating and new and exciting in marketing, media, and culture, but it's also the one show where we're not talking about AI. There are enough other places, podcasts, stages, screens, screaming at you about AI. Here, we're going to talk about gay eye. Way more interesting, way more fun. Just to reinforce that, if you happen to mention AI on gay eye, we're probably going to buzz you.
00:33:48
Speaker 6: But specifically talking about queer media, I do think, I don't have an answer for the advertisers.
00:33:53
Speaker 7: I find it as strange as you do.
00:33:55
Speaker 6: I think, again, depending on the need to, the AI policy thing, I think it's a little strange and unprecedented in modern day to just see everyone.
00:34:06
Speaker 2: Fold this way.
00:34:08
Speaker 6: To just see, how do you feel about Pride Month this year?
00:34:14
Speaker 7: I felt like it came and went.
00:34:16
Speaker 1: It was quiet.
00:34:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was uneventful.
00:34:20
Speaker 3: Every brand is looking for growth with this generation coming up into spending power, into first jobs. And the future growth is sitting with Gen Z. And Gen Z are going, we're good with it. We're about inclusiveness and equality.
00:34:37
Speaker 6: And the most queer generation ever.
00:34:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. Statistically, the most... Queer identifying generation ever.
00:34:44
Speaker 3: The most fluid, the most open, and yet
brands are, I think they're missing a huge, you know, Daryl, we're always talking about this. It's not a DEI investment for brands, right? This is about investing in growth.
00:34:56
Speaker 1: It's ROI.
00:34:58
Speaker 2: It's ROI.
00:34:59
Speaker 1: Phenomenal discussion.
00:35:01
Speaker 3: Thank you both for dropping some wisdom, scaring us a little, motivating us, hopefully quite a bit. Let's start asking and answering those questions. But thank you so much for making us a little bit smarter and hopefully a little more motivated to support Queer TV.
00:35:20
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. Thank you so much, Damon. We are smarter because of you.
00:35:25
Speaker 7: Well, it's been a pleasure.
00:35:27
Speaker 3: It's a great topic and there's so much more to dig in on. So hopefully we'll have you back again soon too.
00:35:32
Speaker 2: Awesome.
00:35:32
Speaker 7: We'll be anytime.
00:35:34
Speaker 3: And now we are so excited to have some incredible guests for this week's Gay Eye iSpy. We've got the incredible Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers, host of Las Culturistas podcast.
00:35:47
Speaker 1: Incredible show.
00:35:48
Speaker 3: And today in iSpy, they're going to perhaps unlock something.
00:35:53
Speaker 1: You haven't seen from one of your favorite franchises. Hi, gay eye. This is Bowen Yang.
00:36:04
Speaker 2: And this is Matt Rogers.
00:36:05
Speaker 11: And we are ready to tell you all about what we are spying with our little gay eye.
00:36:10
Speaker 2: We spy.
00:36:12
Speaker 10: A film franchise that you might not be familiar with called The Fast and the Furious.
00:36:17
Speaker 11: Yeah, so apparently there's been 10 movies in this franchise, and it stars Vin Diesel, who's an actor, and a bunch of other talents. And they get together to sort of race cars and find out what's really going on in the underbellies of cars.
00:36:32
Speaker 10: And they go to all kinds of places in the world. Tokyo, Los Angeles.
00:36:39
Speaker 2: Ooh!
00:36:39
Speaker 10: Others, places that aren't in the title. So really, there's no way of knowing unless you watch the films, which we won't ruin for you.
00:36:47
Speaker 2: Michelle Rodriguez is in the movies.
00:36:48
Speaker 1: She's amazing.
00:36:49
Speaker 2: She was gay for a second.
00:36:51
Speaker 11: And then she dated Zac Efron, which, relatable queen, you know what I mean?
00:36:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
00:36:57
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think we should check that out.
00:37:00
Speaker 1: And they're doing really fun stuff. And there's certainly.
00:37:04
Speaker 2: queer under and overtones yeah yeah cars we've never seen.
00:37:09
Speaker 4: Them so fast furious and lots and lots of subtext and i think that might be a good way to look at what we discovered right gail which is if you look at the subtext Maybe there's quite a lot of gay storytelling in the world, but that feels like we've gone backwards to a time when there were lots of subtextual storytelling.
00:37:36
Speaker 2: We found a lot of hidden treasure, maybe, but not a visible treasure.
00:37:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of.
00:37:40
Speaker 3: Hidden treasures, small characters, B-plots, indie films, indie series, some real nice gems globally coming from other countries and nations. But Here in the bright, hot spotlight of America, we're not seeing as many gay characters. I think we're down 41% of gay characters on mainstream film and TV, or I guess TV. 41% of TV characters in the mainstream have said goodbye and taken their final bath.
00:38:11
Speaker 2: Have been written out.
00:38:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, the gays are getting written out of TV. That is concerning.
00:38:16
Speaker 2: That seems to be the headline.
00:38:17
Speaker 4: By TV, we mean also the cool streamers who are not bound by the old studio advertising concerns. So I don't really understand it. It's not a good sign for anyone, particularly not for those streamers, you know, that Two data points have stuck with me in this podcast. One is the 41% of characters killed, gay characters killed, killed off because too controversial for the streaming platform or TV broadcast platform. And number two is not 1.4 trillion.
00:38:53
Speaker 2: It's 1.7. I know. We made some money in this episode.
00:38:58
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:38:58
Speaker 2: Yeah. We made 300 million dollars.
00:39:03
Speaker 4: And there's not like there's no creativity. Like you can see it on social. You can see it in all the fan fiction around heated rivalry.
00:39:09
Speaker 2: You can see it.
00:39:10
Speaker 4: There's so much bubbling creativity in the world, but commercial platforms, media platforms are being more cautious than even in brands.
00:39:20
Speaker 1: There's something afoot here.
00:39:22
Speaker 3: And I imagine there's a climate of fear, which is bizarre because in a tough economy, where a lot of the content companies and the media networks are struggling, are looking for hits, you would think people would be running towards success. the heated rivalry-like shows, everyone would be chasing the next mega breakout hit.
00:39:43
Speaker 2: Netflix, for example?
00:39:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, Netflix and Prime.
00:39:46
Speaker 3: And you would think, shout out to Apple TV, they seem to be doing a slightly better job of putting more gay characters on our screens. But it's concerning and it's got to be fear-based because it doesn't seem to make any sense economically.
00:39:59
Speaker 2: It is 100% fear, as you say.
00:40:00
Speaker 4: And Caution, just like a radical amount of caution. The death of creativity comes from caution. The notion that, what did we hear from Damien, that Reverie is blacklisted by Trade Desk as brand unsafe. And I just can't believe there's a thoughtful reason for that. So it's fear and just like real caution.
00:40:28
Speaker 1: And misunderstanding, right? I mean, you know, marketers, listen up. Like, there's a $ 1. 7 trillion audience. $ 1. 7 trillion.
00:40:36
Speaker 2: Just in the U.S.
00:40:38
Speaker 1: Yes, in the U.S. audience.
00:40:40
Speaker 3: And these times where we hear, you know, sob story after sob story about finding growth and finding new audiences and how hard it is and how expensive it's become, and yet we don't see brands gravitating to back these shows, brands asking the networks for more of these characters. You know, if you look at some of the original streamers and the companies like Netflix and Prime, I mean.
00:41:05
Speaker 2: Orange is the New Black. Look at all the stuff they do.
00:41:07
Speaker 3: They were the shows that put the gays on our screens in middle America, in our living rooms, and they proved there was audience appetite. There was beautiful storytelling to be done, incredible breakout hits and Emmy after Emmy after Emmy.
00:41:23
Speaker 1: And yet, here we are asking, where did they go?
00:41:27
Speaker 4: As you say, brands are always looking for how do I stand out and how do I make an authentic connection? And particularly you and I hear about how do we get into branded storytelling?
00:41:36
Speaker 2: How do we get into brand narratives? Yeah, that's how you do it.
00:41:40
Speaker 4: You partner with a really compelling story with an audience that is really loyal and rewards your attention. So I think we can't, even though I think streamers, which really surprises me, are more conservative than the broadcast networks.
00:41:55
Speaker 2: We haven't had a Will & Grace, actually. from a streamer yet, but.
00:41:58
Speaker 4: We also need to hold the communications platforms accountable, but we also need brands to step up and go, it's dull.
00:42:06
Speaker 2: Forget politics.
00:42:07
Speaker 4: Forget what you think about various partisan things.
00:42:10
Speaker 2: This is not good for culture when the stories.
00:42:13
Speaker 4: Are all the same narrative, the same people with the same life experiences.
00:42:18
Speaker 2: What did Damien say?
00:42:19
Speaker 4: We're the third largest consumer group in the country after Hispanic Americans. Well, tell the story of Hispanic Americans and tell the story of LGBT Americans.
00:42:30
Speaker 2: Like, do that. Number two and number three.
00:42:32
Speaker 4: I think you can get a pretty good growth story if your brand is in that storytelling realm.
00:42:36
Speaker 1: It's so true.
00:42:37
Speaker 3: And I do think, you know, you hit on, Daryl, something I think we need to dig deeper on. And maybe there's a future episode of Gay Eye.
00:42:42
Speaker 1: Here where we've got to look at from a brand perspective.
00:42:46
Speaker 3: If a company like Reverie is considered not brand safe because they're putting gay content on our screens, We've got to dig deeper on why that is in the media ecosystem. I know that's your turf. So hopefully you can help us do some forensics.
00:43:00
Speaker 4: It sounded like it's easier for brands to be partnering with gay content on the closed gardens, you know, the walled gardens and the open web.
00:43:08
Speaker 2: And that can't be right. So, yes, we need to go deeper. You've had this theory that.
00:43:13
Speaker 4: We think it's easy to buy gay audiences in the more programmatic direct buy world, but it might actually be harder.
00:43:20
Speaker 1: It might be.
00:43:20
Speaker 3: And it might just be that nobody's really asked and answered that question about brand safety in quite some time. And somehow we're getting looped in there, which is a fairly dangerous assumption to be made that all gay content is unsafe.
00:43:35
Speaker 2: It's outrageous.
00:43:36
Speaker 4: A hundred years ago, that's when people were chemically prostrating.
00:43:40
Speaker 2: Men and women.
00:43:40
Speaker 3: That's pulling your children away.
00:43:45
Speaker 2: Get to the truth of that. So yes, that's a real mission. I'm very excited about that.
00:43:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got to go. We've got to do that. That's a story that must be told.
00:43:52
Speaker 4: And shout out to Bernardo for keeping us also inspired by La Bola Negra, De Noce, all the amazing foreign body lovers coming with Romeo Beckham and There's a lot of hot indie films coming.
00:44:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, I think Bernardo was telling us there's some incredible queer content coming out of Poland, Japan, Spain, the UK, Canada.
00:44:16
Speaker 2: France.
00:44:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're falling behind.
00:44:19
Speaker 3: I guess there's hope globally, so we like to leave on an optimistic note. And hopefully this is a wake-up call for all these wonderful creatives out there and the people shopping shows and writing checks and deciding what's going to get our attention next. the gays can get your attention. So pay attention, folks. Gay stories to be told.
00:44:39
Speaker 2: It's not D-E-I, it's R-O-I.
00:44:42
Speaker 4: Somebody very wise once said that on a very important podcast.
00:44:47
Speaker 1: $ 1. 7 trillion.
00:44:48
Speaker 3: Go get your slice of it with some great gay content.
00:44:55
Speaker 1: Gay Eye is a Bubbler Media iHeart podcast production. If you're not in the conversation, you're not in the game.
00:45:04
Speaker 4: K.I.