رونوشت کامل On Being Pro-Choice for Life w/Chelsea Kim Long

have him uh do some stand-up there. 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:19.759 His speech just killing it. 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:20.079 Yeah. 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:21.759 Let's get him on the pod, Liz. 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:22.480 Okay, yeah. 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:23.519 I can I can do that. 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:24.639 You get on that? 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.240 When he runs for that third term, he's gonna need to be on some podcasts. 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:29.040 You know what I mean? 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:30.720 So absolutely. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.680 Well, we're talking about big things today. 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:35.439 And I think I'll start. 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:43.839 I'm actually gonna start us off with just a quick poll so we know where we are because we're we are talking about reproductive rights today and pro-life issues. 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.639 And so I just want to quick poll. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.759 Would we consider ourselves, each of us, pro-life, anti-abortion, or pro-choice? 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:53.600 What changed your mind? 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:59.439 I'm assuming we've probably changed our minds because we're here. 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:05.120 But I I was curious to just start off here and then we will jump into some news stories about this. 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:11.279 But Jeremy, let's start with you because there's a dude in the room. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:12.879 So you get to go first. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:13.360 Right. 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.319 Obviously, I need to I need to have something to say about this. 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:18.240 It's gonna carry the most weight. 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.680 Uh, you know, I you know this, Liz, about me. 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:23.360 I have a complicated story here. 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.720 I was raised, my mom was a pro-life activist growing up. 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.360 She I grew up going to uh protests, to clinic protests. 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:47.759 Similar to you, Chelsea, I grew up in a Christian bubble and then chose to go to a public university because at the time I wasn't sure I even wanted to be a Christian, but I was still staunchly pro-life and actually started a pro-life campus group when I got there. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.079 Um I love that story. 00:06:51.759 --> 00:07:07.040 And I will say, even at the time, I was pro-life in the sense that like I was uh utterly convinced that you know the fetus was a human being and you know deserved uh to be considered, you know, uh a life that should be protected. 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.480 I was always uncomfortable with the idea of the government. 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:19.120 You know, I was also raised Texas conservative, very suspicious of the government, pretty anti-government, stay out of our business kind of thing. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:20.959 And so there was always this tension there. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:39.199 I was like, I don't was never comfortable with the idea of the government stepping in and like enforcing, you know, their position on this really like debatable, disputed, philosophical, religious question involving women's body. 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:40.720 Like it was just, it felt weird. 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.639 So there was a tension always there in me. 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:55.759 And so my approach to kind of the pro-life work I was doing was like, let's change the culture, let's make abortion unthinkable so that even if it's legal, you know, people will make a different choice within that framework. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.079 I mean, I'm still probably broadly in that camp. 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:09.759 Uh the last thing I want is I I think it's obscene and absurd for the government to be involved in this whole thing. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:31.360 And so I would say part of my journey has just been growing up, becoming an adult, talking to more women about their experience with abortion and accepting the fact that hey, everybody, including women, are the experts in their own experience, and women should have the final say on what happens in their with their bodies and with pregnancy. 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:33.440 So um right. 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.600 Well, that's our podcast for today. 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.200 Uh hope I've made my position clear. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:40.960 Thank you for listening, ladies. 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:41.919 Thank you so much. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:42.879 I'm gonna go and pray. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:44.159 All right, bye. 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:49.519 Um, I our goal today is pretty much to make Jeremy as uncomfortable as possible. 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:50.720 Sorry, Jeremy. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.320 Y'all are doing a fantastic job so far. 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.639 Just sit in your silence watching me talk. 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.639 So very self-conscious. 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.159 And I'm still talking. 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:05.120 I listen, I want you here. 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:05.600 Okay. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.440 Uh, I think this is good. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.200 I yeah, I would say Chelsea, how about you go next? 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:12.639 What what do you think? 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.440 Okay, it's it's so complicated. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:26.080 I mean, the thing is that's so frustrating about our political landscape and like most of American culture at this point is how polarized we are told that everything is. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:32.559 And actually, I think for all of us, it's extremely complex on a variety of topics, including this one. 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:37.039 So I grew up in a very anti-choice culture. 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:55.440 And I was very much kind of, I actually was looking through old, you know, like when you go visit your parents' house and you look through like old boxes of stuff from high school or whatever, I literally found, you know, like anti-choice, anti-abortion

pamphlets that someone uh had given me, probably at my school. 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:59.200 Like we probably had someone come to our chapel and talk about it. 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.080 I have no idea. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:01.279 I can't really remember. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:17.519 But um, like I said, as soon as I had to make my own voting choice, I realized that actually to be pro-choice is a better option in terms of reducing the number of abortions. 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.679 So I think I did very much relate to that mindset, Jeremy. 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:33.600 I just felt like it doesn't make sense if we know that banning abortions increases the number of abortions and also is really, really bad for women's health in general. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:39.600 Why would we not vote for policies that reduce the number of abortions? 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:45.200 And so I think for me that was very easy to understand from a, you know, from like age 20. 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:52.159 Now, I would have said, I am pro-choice in terms of my voting, but I am anti-abortion. 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.360 Or like, I am pro choice. 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.519 Like, I want women to be able to make their own choice. 00:10:57.679 --> 00:10:59.279 I trust women to make their own choice. 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.240 And I used to say, but I would never have an abortion, right? 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:14.879 And I think this is where some of the problem lies because so many of these voting choices that we make are predicated on not thinking that it will happen to us, right? 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.279 I think about this with school shootings, right? 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:23.120 It's like, why is every mom not a single issue voter for gun control or whatever it is? 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.519 And it's like, yeah, because we walk around thinking it's not going to happen to us. 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:34.879 And so, very long story short, if people are interested, I write this in excruciating detail in my book that came out in September. 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:48.960 But it was really through my own reproductive journey of trying to build my family that I realized, I guess the error of my thinking that I would never need to access this kind of health care. 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.720 And so I had a miscarriage throughout my journey. 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.480 I um underwent infertility treatments as a part of my journey. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.600 And then I ultimately ended up getting pregnant with quads. 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:11.440 And so I found myself in a situation that I never would have imagined for myself and made the decision to reduce the pregnancy to twins, which is a form of abortion. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:19.840 And even at the time, I mean, it was such a hard choice to make because I would have said, like, this is actually against my values. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:26.399 But that is really tough to say because people don't want to hear nuance, right? 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:31.440 And so I made that decision for my own health, for the health of the pregnancy. 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.159 I already had another child at that time. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:41.440 And so it's just like, it's really not tenable for me to give b birth to four children at the same time. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.799 Um, and so that was a really, really hard decision to make. 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:46.399 And I think it was the right decision. 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:47.919 I never regretted it. 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:54.320 And I want women to be able to, I mean, that was the worst, most traumatic time of my life. 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.879 And I think a lot now about this was even before Roe v. 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:00.080 Wade was overturned. 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:11.759 But now, and I've even had conversations with, you know, anti-choice folks, and I will say to them, I it was the worst thing that I've had to go through. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:23.919 And I cannot imagine trying to figure out logistics of like traveling to another state, worrying about legal ramifications for making that choice, a choice that I desperately did not want to have to make. 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.600 And I would literally like pray wild prayers, like God. 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:30.159 And this whole time I'm a Christian woman, right? 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:35.360 And so I had to grapple with even my identity of like, oh, I didn't think that Christian women had abortions. 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:36.639 Because they do. 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:37.120 Yeah. 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:38.159 Yeah, they do. 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:38.799 They do. 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:47.519 I mean, one in four women who are polled, you know, like some poll, um, identify as Christian who have had an abortion. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:47.840 Yeah. 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:49.039 Yeah. 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:55.279 I mean, a miscarriage is technically an abortion, according to maternal health care code. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:57.600 Yeah, it's called a spontaneous abortion. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.600 I remember seeing that on my chart and was just shocked. 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:04.960 I think my journey I was a birth doula. 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:10.639 So I I mostly I worked with a lot of Christian women, to be honest with you. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:30.720 But I think one of the things that was so eye-opening about the experience of having deeper training in the childbirth and maternal health care industry, I wasn't really a care provider, you know, I was a supporter, but I had a lot of knowledge that I learned as part of my dual training and certification. 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:42.720 I had to do a lot of work around learning just about childbirth, about health care, about the system of health care for mothers in this country, what's working and what's not. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:48.320 And my own experience, I had two home

births, which is very weird, guys. 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.399 And so whenever I tell people that, they're like, What? 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:59.919 I'm like, I had my children in my living room with home birth midwives in a big old inflatable bathtub. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:01.039 And it is weird. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:12.080 But I think I I came to understand that one of the ways that patriarchy tries to control women is through maternal health care. 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:20.000 And I I started it's became very important to me personally to have autonomy over my own decisions about my birthing experience. 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:25.360 And then as I kind of moved into more of a career, and I I only did that for two years. 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.679 It's a high burnout profession. 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:31.440 And I just couldn't do it longer than that personally. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:43.279 But I noticed that this was a really intense time of decision making for families as they moved into making families, becoming parents, because I would often work with first-time parents. 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:51.200 And uh, to have those choices taken away from them, that's actually when a birth became traumatic for families, when they didn't have those choices. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:16:06.559 So a woman would leave that experience and say, you know, I'm a bad mother because I wasn't able to make these choices for my child, and I and would feel unprepared for parenting for the rest of her child's life. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.320 And often would then not address that. 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:14.960 So anyway, this is a personal, probably personal crusade of mine, which is why we're even talking about this. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:28.799 Because I, you know, again, like you're not gonna hear a lot of Christian podcasters talk about this only because this is it's it's a very explosive topic, I think, when you are in faith settings. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:36.559 I actually still, I would say I'm pro-choice, but I still believe that at conception a baby becomes a child. 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:42.000 I just also believe that the mother is in charge of that life. 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:43.600 We are co-creators with God. 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:56.799 And so that is a different theological mode because a mother may have to make a really hard decision, or a pregnant person may have to make a really hard decision about that child's life. 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.320 And that's just that's just a different, a different mode. 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:05.920 But one of the things we're gonna talk about today is thank you guys for giving me your insights on that. 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:13.680 I want to talk about what is actually happening in healthcare in this country for women because it is very concerning. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:22.880 This is more of an overview today because we're looking at a report actually from Pregnancy Justice US, is the organization. 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:31.519 The article is entitled New Data Finds 900 plus pregnancy related prosecutions in three years since the fall of Roe v. 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:32.160 Wade. 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.400 So this is a lot of information that we're gonna get into. 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:41.119 I'm gonna start with the bad news, and then Jeremy's gonna give us some good news. 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:47.119 There is some good news here, but I do want to give us kind of an overview of what we're facing, and then we're gonna talk about it. 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:47.599 Okay. 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:53.039 So just as a review, in 2022, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:59.200 Wade, which of course had enshrined the right to abortion access into the Constitution of the U.S. 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.599 And that decision was Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:05.519 So I'll probably just refer to it as Dobbs. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:07.519 You've probably heard it referred to as that. 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:13.519 So here is the fresh hell that the Supreme Court's decision has at least unleashed upon us and our children. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:13.920 Okay. 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.079 So the first thing that happened uh after Roe v. 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.160 Wade fell was that a bunch of states enacted what they called trigger laws. 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:27.920 So they were pre-written abortion bans that these majority Republican legislators just had ready to go. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.200 So as soon as Roe fell, boom, these laws go into effect. 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:31.680 Okay. 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:46.000 Right now, there are a lot of those, but it's sort of a patchwork of laws all across the country, which means it's very confusing for uh within individual states to know kind of what your actual rights are as a birthing person. 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:57.039 And you can also imagine that has led to an abundance of lawsuits from all sorts of folks just saying, hey, is this actually legal what y'all have done? 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:07.200 So one of the things with this report, it notes at least actually 955 cases against pregnant people in 23 states. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:17.200 So AG's attorney generals have charged mothers and pregnant persons with crimes related to their pregnancies, miscarriages, or births. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.519 A lot of times this is in southern states. 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:29.519 Um, generally the charges are actually not related to abortion bans, but it's more about this kind of changing attitude toward women as mothers or as pregnant people. 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:36.160 So they're actually reclassifying some existing laws to criminalize decisions a mother can make during pregnancy. 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:44.160 So they're bringing charges of like child neglect, endangerment, homicide, abuse statutes are being applied to this.

00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.440 A lot of charges related to drug abuse, as you might imagine. 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:56.880 So from the article, they talk about, you know, what we have documented to date is actually not the ceiling on pregnancy criminalization in the US, it's the floor. 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:01.920 So that's to say this is just kind of the tip of the iceberg. 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:06.640 Like we just have a tiny sliver of what's been reported, right? 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:12.160 Because if they're kind of classifying it under different things, it's like you actually have to go through all the data. 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:17.359 There's not like an abortion ban category of pregnancy criminalization. 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:26.799 It's actually more like, oh, you have to go through all of the crime reports to figure out what people are really being charged for and how that relates to pregnancy data. 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:44.559 So I would say the other thing that really stands out from this report is, and this is from the article, the new findings also point to a troubling acceleration in the criminalization of pregnancy loss in post-RO, as in miscarriage, stillbirth, and neonatal death. 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.480 Things that are not something that a mother can generally prevent. 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:58.400 You know, there are things kind of that she can do to perhaps help, but it's it's generally not preventable. 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:02.079 Um, and those are being treated as potentially suspicious events. 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:12.240 Other things happening, uh, you know, one of the things that's very troubling to me, uh, you may have seen this in the news, ICE detention centers have actually stopped counting. 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:21.279 They said they lost count of how many mothers miscarried in their care in detention centers and in jails. 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.599 There have been a lack of pregnancy care in jail as well. 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:33.119 Medical professionals have started sometimes violating HIPAA rules to get police involved if they suspect an issue. 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:45.279 Police have also started entering hospitals and questioning mothers around their birth experiences, even you know, post surgery, things like that. 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.720 Fortunately, and and this is some of the good news we'll get into. 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.400 The courts have been kind of weighing in on this, usually in favor of mothers. 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:54.720 So that's that's very good news. 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.759 But there was recently, uh, I think this was March or April. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:13.200 There was a couple, there were a couple cases in Florida where laboring women were actually forced to undergo cesarean sections, so surgery to remove the baby without their direct consent. 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:18.240 And they were actually forced to do that through having these remote court cases. 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:34.799 So literally a nurse reports something like this mother is not, you know, taking our advice, brings in an iPad where this woman is now on Zoom court during her labor. 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.960 She's literally laboring in bed and unclothed. 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.720 And they say to her, cover up. 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.640 Here's Zoom court. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.440 And she goes, Is this a real judge? 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:50.000 Like, I mean, it's just and and the two women I happen to, you know, guess what? 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.160 They're not white women, right? 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:53.200 They're black women. 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.119 No advocates provided to either of them as they're in this court situation. 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:03.200 And then they are forced to have a cesarean section after this court case. 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:15.200 So I actually, and I will put this in the notes, but there is a petition you can sign right now to stop uh, you know, to tell these particular hospitals no for C sections. 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:16.960 So I will put that in in the notes. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:19.359 You guys can join in with me in that. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.680 So it's it's just a really wild time. 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:25.440 I know that is a lot of information. 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:27.839 It's a lot of really heavy information. 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:40.799 We know that the administrations and and healthcare in this country has not prioritized women in general, as far as kind of how we've made decisions about healthcare, how we study healthcare. 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.799 I think this is this is the challenge that we're dealing with right now. 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.519 The state is essentially saying we know better than women and their doctors what's best for them. 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.240 And if they disagree with us, we'll just throw them in jail. 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.519 It's beginning to feel a little bit handmaidstailed to me. 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:02.319 A little bit uh, you know, we're incubators, the women, women are people that people come out of. 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:02.799 Remember that? 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:09.359 Well, and I think it's worth saying just very clearly, which you mentioned that the force C sections were to black women. 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:15.519 But it's like so many of these tactics, people are only caring because now it's happening to white women. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:15.839 Yeah. 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:25.599 And these things have been practiced upon women, you know, black women, native women, forced sterilization, um, enslaved women forever. 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:29.839 So so much of this is not new for many populations. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.039 It's and and I think I just want to name that very clearly. 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:45.839 As a white woman, I have even heard it's it's kind of like what I

said before, where I would tell people who were anti-choice or pro-life about my abortion. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:51.440 And then they would the how they would respond to me because they know me, right? 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:55.920 Yeah, yeah, is like, oh, well, that makes sense that you made that choice. 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.839 Like, I can't I've just heard you've you can just imagine the things that I've heard. 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.559 Like, you shouldn't feel bad for making that choice. 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:03.359 Like, that makes sense. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:13.519 I'm I'm a very petite woman, I'm five foot nothing, and so I've had people say, like, I can't even, like, your body wouldn't even be able to withstand being pregnant, you know, with four babies at once. 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:14.720 So things like that. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.960 And I'm like, see how easy it is. 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.119 We're on this podcast, Empathy Revolt. 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:26.960 See how easy it is to find empathy for someone that you know and love that looks like you, that has a similar background to you. 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:36.160 And yet, when we have this image in our head of like a villainous woman that has an abortion, it's rooted in racism so often. 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:38.720 Yeah, thank you for making that point, Chelsea. 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:40.559 Yeah, yeah, that's so important. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:55.119 Yeah, I mean, it's worth saying it's always maternal death rate has always been higher for black women, consistently across the board, even when we were at supposedly the best levels of care for Latino women. 00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:11.680 And also like United States, in terms of you know, developed countries or high-income comp countries, we rank the worst in maternal mortality, meaning like the number of women that die in in childbirth and pregnancy every year. 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:28.400 Um, and so you know, I was just looking back at the numbers because Texas was one of the states that like everybody was watching right away because they were talking about these laws where women could get sued if they were accused of you know having an abortion and or a miscarriage. 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:29.200 Right. 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.200 It's crazy stats. 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:44.240 Like the maternal how the maternal health outcomes, the maternal mortality rate in Texas rose by 56% between 2019 and 2022 in Texas. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:47.039 The infant death rate is higher too. 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.440 I mean, this is yeah, this is wild to me. 00:26:49.599 --> 00:27:03.599 So if we're talking about, you know, if you are a pro-life person, you know, pro-life forever, we got to talk about like there there are more deaths happening because of this of babies and pregnant people. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.960 Which again is not shocking. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.519 Like, like I said, I have known this since

2008, right? 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.799 And yet people are so surprised by this information. 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:23.680 It it's actually very maddening to hear conservatives talk about this because I'm like, bro, why don't why don't you know? 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:29.359 But it's that what's that psychological thing where you can't take in information that you don't already agree with? 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:29.680 Yeah. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.920 Cognitive bias or whatever it is. 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:34.480 Like you literally can't take in information. 00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:39.440 And I don't try to argue, like I don't try to argue with people because I it doesn't do anything. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:41.759 Well, I'm gonna try. 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.400 Well, and there's some good news too. 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:45.599 There is some good news. 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:47.359 So let's let's get to that real quick. 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:49.920 Jeremy, can you tell us some good news, please? 00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:51.200 Sure. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.839 Um, I mean, it's all relative, right? 00:27:54.079 --> 00:28:09.200 There have been some uh reproductive rights organizations that have made some leeway in the courts, uh, getting some of these abortion bans blocked and even challenging some of the bans on religious freedom grounds, which is really interesting. 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:17.680 There's an article called Can There Be a Religious Right to Abortion by Mariel Padilla at the 19th News. 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:31.920 And it's about how some of these organizations are using the pro-life advocates' own playbook against them and claiming a religious exemption from the abortion bans based on beliefs in religious practice. 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:50.480 And so one example is uh there's a case of uh making the argument that Jewish people who are required to place a higher value on the pregnant person's life and do not consider a fetus truly alive until birth are being discriminated against by these bans. 00:28:50.880 --> 00:29:05.519 Uh and also there's like the United Church of Christ, uh, there's a pastor who's argued that the laws restrict their counseling ministry to their congregants who you know are making hard decisions about their health care. 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:18.240 And the UCC considers that God has given both the privilege and the responsibility of co-creation to pregnant people, decisions which should not be legislated by the state. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:27.440 And so uh it's not clear whether these arguments are going to ultimately be successful. 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:29.519 I don't think these have been decided yet. 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:35.839 But so far, since Roe has been overturned, 15 lawsuits have been filed in eight states. 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.039 And in Indiana, it's uh one of them has made it to the state Supreme Court. 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:50.880 The argument there has been that the organization has argued that Indiana has attempted, uh, this is a quote, through its legislative regime to say when life begins. 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:57.039 And that is a deeply personal question that is not answerable by legal fiat. 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:02.000 And uh it's not something that can be legislatively mandated. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.799 So I want to say I'm not like a defeatist. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.759 I don't, it's not that I don't think people can change their minds. 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.720 I just don't think throwing stats at them does. 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:28.160 And so that is actually a big part of the reason why I decided to share about my abortion story in my book and you know, broadly, very publicly, because I want to kind of complicate the narrative for folks. 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:38.480 I want to complicate the narrative for folks in the sense that it's like, oh, you know, there's so many things about my story that actually are true about many women that have abortion. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:48.000 Like many of them are married, many of them already have children, many of them are in the context of, you know, fertility treatments and things like that. 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:53.440 And I think there's just a lot that people don't know until they get into it. 00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:01.680 And so I think there is value in sharing stories and complicating the narrative of who has abortion and why. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:10.880 And so I do think that could be the thing that would be most likely to change people's minds or at least crack open their mind a little bit more. 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:12.400 I totally agree with that. 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:13.440 I totally agree with that. 00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:21.279 I I guess I'm wondering, you know, as we're thinking through these stories, you know, who are these laws actually good for? 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:33.039 I mean, I think that's something that we, you know, when we're thinking about policy as Christians, as the Christian left, we have to ask these questions, these deeper questions about like, why are they making these laws? 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.519 Who are these laws working for, if anyone? 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:39.039 What do y'all think the answer to that question is? 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.720 I mean, it's not even achieving the goal that they set out to achieve, right? 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:46.960 From what I understand, I mean, abortions are up since 2022. 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:52.240 So, you know, there's something else going on. 00:31:52.319 --> 00:32:01.440 Because like Chelsea said, anybody that's spent any time on this knows that these laws don't actually reduce abortion. 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:03.680 So there's something else going on. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:04.400 Yeah. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:16.160 And like a good radical leftist, as I am, I socialist, far, far left, I for me, it's just a question of like, we're spending

resources on this. 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:23.839 And couldn't we again use our resources on actually supporting families in the United States? 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:34.079 But that feels like too much to ask in our broadly conservative country where even the Democrat, the Democrats are conservative compared to the liberals of the rest of the world. 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:35.599 So Right Right. 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:42.559 I mean, I when I look at this, I'm just I just am like, this is kind of part of their woman haters club. 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:43.119 You know what I mean? 00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:51.039 The He-Man Women Women Haters Club, where it's just how do you how do you limit women's choices? 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:57.519 I you know, when I look at that, it's just hard not to see it as a way to be authoritarian toward women. 00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.359 Um that's what I wanted to say too. 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.440 I'm like, it's literally just we hate women. 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.480 So I don't know. 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:03.279 There's no way. 00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:21.039 And it's worse, you know, when we're talking about ICE, when we're talking about these black mothers who are laboring, I'm I'm like, it is so pointed in the direction of kind of the things that we've talked about with racism, with sterilization, with the history of healthcare toward indigenous people. 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.960 It it's been very much uh about kind of white supremacy and women hating. 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.119 And I mean, to I mean, to me, that's what I read in this. 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:36.079 I also think, you know, there are some people who are probably convinced this is helping. 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:52.240 And and and I don't want to say that that those people don't exist, but it is hard to believe that the actual people making policy, who are majority men, are okay, you know, like actually are okay with this not working. 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:53.599 So, you know, we're doing it. 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:56.160 It's about punishing women. 00:33:56.319 --> 00:34:02.960 I mean, yeah, I feel like that's something that 47 has said, literally, like women should be punished. 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:13.840 And and so I think there are a large majority of Christians, conservative Christians, who would agree abortion is wrong. 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:18.000 So if a woman chooses to have an abortion, she should be punished. 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.000 Yeah, I I think that is definitely true. 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:27.760 And also, like, there's a whole purity culture element of like, look, sex outside of marriage is wrong. 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:31.920 So if you have an unwanted pregnancy, well, that's on you. 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:41.199 And if you choose to abort it, I mean, yeah, you should be punished for the abortion and for the fact that you had sex outside of marriage, right? 00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:41.760 Yeah. 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:49.519 And I think it's just really erasing the reality of so many women in this situation where it's a pregnancy that's deeply wanted. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:57.519 And so to have to make that decision is so difficult and painful, and you're praying that there's another way out of this situation. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:03.679 And so then to just add these layers on top of it feels so cruel. 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:04.400 Yeah. 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.719 I just I just want to be clear too. 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:11.440 I mean, this is never an easy decision. 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:15.119 Like, I don't know anyone who makes these decisions lightly. 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:22.719 It is very difficult bodily to have an abortion, very difficult to have a miscarriage, of course. 00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.360 And it's difficult to take plan B. 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:32.159 Like I've had friends who have taken plan B and it messes them up hormonial hormonally for several cycles. 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.360 It's very difficult. 00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:35.599 Yeah, all of these things are very difficult. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.239 So I think that's just another side of this. 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:51.360 I, you know, it's not an easy decision for any woman, for any pregnant person who is put in this position, and it is not something that these women take lightly. 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:58.639 Um, I think sometimes there are probably people who joke about that to get under the skin of pre-white folks. 00:35:58.960 --> 00:35:59.440 Absolutely. 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:01.440 But those are those are jokes. 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:02.159 Those are jokes. 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:02.880 Those are jokes. 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.119 Yeah. 00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:12.239 Well, and I I just want to say like what has not been mentioned once in this entire conversation is the role that men play in creating pregnancies. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:13.840 Yep. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:15.519 Yeah. 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:17.679 Yeah, we we we do. 00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:18.880 That's true. 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.400 We are we are in it. 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:31.360 And then we and then it's a cop out when it's like this move of like, hey, you know, you're pregnant and I I just want to, it's your choice, whatever you want to do. 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:35.360 Uh, and like I I support you, right? 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:40.000 Which uh often just means like you're alone with the decision. 00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:49.039 And uh and if you do decide to keep the pregnancy, I may or may not, you know, be around to provide any kind of support. 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:55.599 Shout out to my husband that was extremely supportive and helpful and with me every step of the way. 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.280 So not all men. 00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:04.320 I think that's probably a good transition to into this question like, why should maternal health care matter to men? 00:37:04.480 -->

00:37:05.280 You know what I mean? 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:06.719 Like why, why? 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.760 It's it's not directly connected. 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:26.079 I mean, I I I would make the case that just like any human I and I think every man listening to this, if you are listening to this, you care about this because you know that the women in your life, women in your lives that are dealing with this, um, and it's a human rights issue. 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:34.400 I think my hope would be that it would matter more to lawmakers as well that women are going through these things. 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:40.159 I think last question here what would y'all say to the one issue voter? 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:44.159 Let's start with Chelsea, and then I I want to hear from Jeremy at length. 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.480 And we'll be silent while you talk. 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.480 Chelsea, what would you say? 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:58.639 I mean, I think it is important to name the sincerity, right? 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:11.760 And I've had to grapple a lot with, you know, my own complicity when I was involved in systems of oppression that I was not aware were actually functioning as such. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.320 I mean, algorithms really do a lot of heavy lifting here. 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.320 And so it's like we're living in two different realities. 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:26.800 So I don't doubt the sincerity of many folks who, like your mom, Jeremy, you know what I mean? 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:32.400 Like who truly believe that they're saving babies. 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:38.320 I would like people to become more awake to the full picture of what's happening. 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.719 Jeremy, can you give us a little uh what would you say to the one issue voter here? 00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:51.199 Well, I mean, I absolutely agree that it's so important to recognize that a lot of these people are are very sincere and and thoughtful people. 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:56.320 Um, they're not all not all pro-life people or single-issue voters or stupid. 00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:00.880 I mean, it's a lot of them have thought carefully about it, not carefully enough. 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:06.719 And I wish they would do uh get a better sense of the broader context. 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:19.519 Um, but I do think for a lot of people, me included, uh at one time, I was attracted to just the simplicity of being a single-issue pro-life voter. 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.039 Like politics is very complicated, right? 00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:24.960 It's it's tough to figure things out. 00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:33.920 And when you can kind of absolutize one perspective on a simple issue, it makes it real simple and clean and uncomplicated. 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:42.079 And at the same time, you get to feel morally superior to those who disagree with you, and it doesn't cost you anything, right? 00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:44.480 So it's a pretty,

it's a pretty good deal. 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:56.559 And I see, I understand why I bought into it, I understand why people buy into it, but like the question is is it for me, is like, is it is it honest? 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:11.440 Like, is it true, is it really like to let everything be determined by your hypothetical love for someone else's unborn children, as uh David Dark puts it, I think, really well. 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:23.199 Is that really giving the full like seriousness to what it means to be a political person, an adult in the real world? 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:30.559 There was a quote, and uh I hate to quote another man in this context, but I'm gonna do it because it's stuck with me. 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:31.360 You're allowed. 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:37.199 I'm sure many women have said the exact same thing, but it took a white man saying it for it to register. 00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:46.480 He said, he posted in 2018, the unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for, because they never make demands of you. 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:56.719 They're morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor, they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct. 00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:00.159 Unlike widows, they don't ask you to question the patriarchy. 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.239 Unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare. 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:09.599 Unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike. 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:15.760 They allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships. 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:30.639 You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without reimagining social structures, apologizing or making reparations to anyone. 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:39.599 They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:52.079 Prisoners, immigrants, the sick, the poor, widows, orphans, all the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible, they all get thrown under the bus for the unborn. 00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:10.320 I think I think that's there's he captures the truth there about like there is just it's so easy to just make this such a simple issue that allows you this like feeling of moral superiority and clarity, and it really doesn't cost you anything. 00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:13.039 I mean, obviously I've thought about this a lot. 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:22.159 And I just think, too, if we want to talk to Christians like at a scriptural level, it's also very complicated in scripture. 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.360 And so, you know, I think of the story of Hagar. 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.800 I grew up calling her Hagar, but now I hear people calling her Hagar. 00:42:29.119 -->

00:42:35.119 But she was an incubator, right, for Abraham and Sarah's baby. 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.800 And then she was cast aside along with her child. 00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:45.599 And there, you know, there's a story where she's just like quite certain that they are going to die in the desert. 00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:51.199 And she walks away from her kid because it is too painful for her to witness that. 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:56.400 And you know what God does is not judge her. 00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:00.400 Oh, you're such a terrible mother for abandoning your child to die alone. 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.639 God sees her, God comes to her. 00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:10.079 And actually, she's the first person in scripture to name God, the God who sees. 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:25.920 And so I think so often when we want to collapse people by one identity, this vision that we have of a woman who has an abortion, it to bring it to the level of like God sees them. 00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:31.920 Like they're an actual human who is beloved by God, who is made in the image of God. 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:41.119 And so I think there's many stories from scripture that we can bring into this for those of us who are invested in, you know, a quote unquote biblical worldview. 00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:47.119 And you could call that the first instance of welfare state because God gives her uh food and water. 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:51.119 So anyway, I think God's on board with that. 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.360 Now a word from our sponsors. 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:56.719 All right, let's do a little promo bit break. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:11.760 I want to hear what y'all have going on here. 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.679 So, Chelsea, tell me what projects are you working on? 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:17.039 What about your book? 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:18.239 Tell us about your book. 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.239 Where are you speaking recently? 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:21.119 Buy my book. 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.000 Buy my book. 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:25.199 Um, you can find my book at faithfullydissident.com. 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.760 It's available on audio, which is so fun. 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:32.480 I'm working on a podcast that I am going to be calling How to Be a Christian. 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:40.719 And I think it's very relevant for the listeners of this podcast because it's exploring the landscape of progressive church in the United States. 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.039 I work primarily with post-evangelical Christians. 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.880 And there are so many of us who are trying to grapple with our relationship with church, and it's so complicated. 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.079 And so the podcast is trying to help educate folks. 00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:56.239 So it'll come out in January. 00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:58.880 And I don't know, I have all kinds of things. 00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:08.639 I am starting to offer, I offer a monthly book club virtually, so folks can come and read with me and discuss fiction, nonfiction. 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.480 And then I'm starting to offer monthly women's circles. 00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:13.840 Sorry, fellas. 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:23.199 But um, I really want to work with women who are reimagining Christianity and particularly through the lens of the feminine. 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.719 So where are we seeing women in scripture, or where are we seeing the feminine in God? 00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.679 And not just like, let's talk about it, let's study it. 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:41.199 Like, what does that actually look for us in our churches, in our lives to be changing the way that we're thinking about God, talking about God, praying to God? 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:49.599 Um, and so it's it's just a cozy community for people to kind of practice this reimagining of faith together. 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:52.880 Is that about mostly changing pronouns? 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.440 Is that uh what you're talking about there? 00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.239 Yes, I think that we should call God chi exclusively. 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:00.639 I know. 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:07.039 No, I mean it's about I mean, and it's deeply related to this conversation, right? 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:22.239 Because these experiences that I had in my reproductive journey really put me at odds with this very male-centered patriarchal view of religion that that most of us, I mean, that we have been inheriting for generations. 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:24.960 And so, yeah, I think my work is very radical. 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.199 It's not just like, can we call God she? 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:29.599 But it's literally like, what does it actually look like? 00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:36.480 What could it look like if the church actually honored women and folks with identities other than male? 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:37.599 Love that. 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.679 Jeremy, what do you have going on? 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.599 Uh I've got shows coming up in November. 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:49.599 I will be in North Carolina and a few different places in Florida and then uh Texas after that. 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:56.400 So as always, uh you can find information and tickets at JeremyAlder.com. 00:46:56.960 --> 00:46:57.840 Love it. 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.320 You can follow me just on the socials. 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:03.199 I mean, right now I'm just working on book edits still. 00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:04.159 Very boring. 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:07.280 But uh I'm on the very excited about this book, though, Liz. 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:08.159 I can't wait. 00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:09.519 I'm so excited. 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:10.639 Thanks, guys. 00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:11.679 That's really kind. 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.880 Women, women, women. 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.639 Um Liz told me she was writing about women. 00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.239 I was like, oh,

expect me to be fully behind this book. 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:23.519 Yeah, Chelsea's. 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:24.320 Me too. 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.599 Oh, thanks, dude. 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.360 Um, yeah, the modus operandi is I just was a little, a little tired of men's stories. 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:32.320 So sorry, guys. 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:35.119 Of course, men make appearances occasionally. 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:37.599 So we'll we'll allow it. 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:39.920 All right, let's get back to things. 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:15.920 I I kind of want to talk about Miss Rachel because I mean, this okay, so there was this great National Catholic Reporter essay, an interview with her entitled The Unshakable Faith of Miss Rachel by John Grosso. 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:31.679 And it was honestly just so sweet to hear I, you know, a faith leader talk in a way that is not judgmental, that is just consistent with faith ideas. 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.280 So one of the things they said, um, so Miss Rachel, Rachel's Rachel Griffin, a curso. 00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:41.360 And she, I didn't realize this because I don't have little kids, so I haven't watched her much. 00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:45.119 I've just kind of seen her journey toward radicalization online. 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:49.280 She is a Broadway composer husband who writes her music, no big deal. 00:48:49.519 --> 00:49:00.960 And of course, she's been advocating for children in Gaza, but she's also she like delivered a petition and letters from kids in detention to Congress recently. 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.599 And she's just a very consistent voice for children. 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:14.079 So I wanted to ask you all when's the last time you heard a Christian megachurch pastor reflect on the rights of truly suffering non-fetal children? 00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:19.920 I don't generally listen to megachurch pastors at all, but I'm going to uh take the baby. 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:22.639 I guess that it's not at the top on the top of their list. 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:23.920 Yeah. 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:24.800 I know. 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:31.519 I think for me, this is really what stands out is just her absolute commitment to children and families. 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:36.239 I'm curious, what do you guys think makes Miss Rachel's advocacy just so potent? 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.599 And how can we mirror her presence in the world? 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:42.400 You know, I'm similar to you. 00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:48.639 I kind of missed the Miss Rachel train because my kids are older as well. 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:53.920 So I don't I don't know that I've ever seen Miss Rachel outside of social media. 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.840 Like I've never watched her show or listened to her music or anything like that. 00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:04.320 So I only have a perception of her as this like advocate um, you know, using her platform. 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:13.920 But I think, I mean, just on a very shallow level, she's like looks like a very innocent uh white woman, you know. 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:26.400 She's like people want to trust you, you know, and she's always showing up with kids and she kind of has this voice, you know, that you use to talk to kids with, I suppose. 00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:34.000 So I think perhaps she's just disarming, you know, like you could never accuse her of anything nefarious, it seems like. 00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:38.239 I mean, they have, but yeah, she's gonna stick. 00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:41.119 It won't it's hard, it's harder for it to stick, right? 00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:43.039 Because she looks like a kindergarten teacher. 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:44.239 Exactly. 00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:47.280 And she's like always wearing headbands and overalls and stuff. 00:50:47.760 --> 00:51:02.159 I think it's just surprising to see a children's entertainer and educator just be so explicitly overtly political and really lean into that advocacy edge. 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:08.639 And I mean who else in that space is doing that, right? 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.840 And she calls them out too, which I just have a lot of respect for. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:19.760 I mean, she's like, where are the other celebrities speaking out about Gaza, for example? 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.519 Say something, right? 00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:33.199 So it's pretty remarkable, and I think a great example of like using your platform and your your privilege and your your white lady privilege for good, right? 00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:34.320 Yeah. 00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:37.840 I just have to say this because I can't think about anything else. 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:43.679 I just watched You Can See Everything, the Elizabeth Holmes Nathan Field documentary. 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:46.320 I am obsessed. 00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:49.599 But when you said that's another direction you can go, yeah. 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:50.000 Right. 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:54.480 Like you said trying to use your white lady privilege for good. 00:51:54.639 --> 00:52:03.920 I'm like, wow, Elizabeth Holmes, like that movie was a masterclass in trying to weaponize white, especially motherhood privilege. 00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:12.880 I mean, I don't think she does it successfully in the film, but but yes, I I just feel like she um and Liz, it's like your book. 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:20.800 It's like we actually need models of women, you know, and not just women, but folks who are showing us what it looks like. 00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:23.440 And so I do appreciate Miss Rachel for that. 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:27.440 Because, like you said, Jeremy, she's so just like no nonsense. 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:30.400 Like, why would I not do like say that? 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:32.079 That's insane, you know. 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:46.480 And the other thing that I love that she talked about in this article is when she receives backlash, she tries to just

not pay attention to it because, and that is like some of my own personal policy too, in terms of just being a person on the internet. 00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:58.000 It's like we I think it would be way more effective to stop reposting like things that we don't agree with, ridiculous things that the president has said, terrible things. 00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:05.679 Not because I don't think people should be aware, but I just I'm questioning the effectiveness of amplifying the message that we disagree with. 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:21.599 And I think instead we should maybe it's a percentage, you know, 80% of our energy should go towards amplifying or creating and doing things in the direction that we want instead of arguing against things that we hate. 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:38.159 Yeah, I mean, if if to piggyback on that, and if I could flex a little bit, um I um I uh started a series on Instagram called Christians Who Don't Suck, which was for that exact reason, right? 00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:42.320 To highlight people who are actually like doing it well. 00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:52.400 And Miss Rachel is one of the first people that I featured, and uh she actually messaged me on Instagram and said, I know, I yeah. 00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:54.079 Amazing, like a good flash. 00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:55.119 We're gonna get her on too. 00:53:56.559 --> 00:54:00.320 I yeah, I mean, I I've I've peaked. 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:01.599 I don't know where to go from here. 00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.280 Like it's incredible. 00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.239 I now is so insanely jealous. 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.920 Um that's so cool, but yeah, just a wonderful person. 00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:11.679 I mean, that personal touch, right? 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:14.079 Like, why would she reach out to me? 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:16.559 But it feels like she's always doing that, yeah. 00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:21.920 And I I hope for her sake she does have some kind of team that's helping her with social media. 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:26.480 Just the like I used to say, for real balancer management, because that's too much. 00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:27.039 Yes. 00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:28.559 Oh gosh, Chelsea. 00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:30.639 So maybe it was an intern that reached out to me. 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:38.639 No, no, it was that I was it was absolutely no. 00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:47.440 I mean, probably I'm hoping she has people that filter out things and they're like, hey, you should message this guy because he likes you and he thinks you're a good Christian. 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:50.559 But the ones that people hating her, they don't show her. 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:52.000 Because they're smart. 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:56.880 Yeah, one of the things she says in the article, she she says, the kids gave me this platform. 00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:58.639 They chose me. 00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:01.360 How could I not use it to help them? 00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:06.480 And I'm just like, that is like the definition of service, right? 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:09.920 This is very similar to like, what do we want from pastors? 00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:18.639 You know, if you pick me to serve, like if you pick me to lead, I'm gonna do it in service because how could I not? 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:19.199 Right? 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:26.559 How could I not honor the trust that has been given to me, the money that has been given to me, the attention that has been given to me? 00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:37.599 And just seeing her be aware of that and tender toward that, she also says, we need to hold on to hope for the children's sake because they are struggling. 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:41.199 But God is able to move mountains. 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000 This isn't the math of a celebrity, okay? 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:52.159 She says God is able to move mountains, God is more powerful than these mountains of hate and hurt out there, and the love of God is unconditional. 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:55.119 Just beautiful. 00:55:55.360 --> 00:56:07.119 So I I guess my last question for us as we wrap up here is what helps each of us to hold on to hope for the sake of this this next generation? 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:21.440 You know, when we're seeing things like these abortion bans specifically target and dehumanize people, like what are the things that we are doing that we are focusing on that help us to cultivate our own sense of hope for our kids? 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:27.920 I mean, broadly, I think for me and my work, I do believe that it is important. 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:43.760 And, you know, I often broadly say, like, my work right now is focusing on helping women to like actually believe that they are made in the image of God by showing them that God looks like them and that women are important to God and in the life of Christ. 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:52.559 And it's funny because I'll get pushback on lots of sides, you know, like I get pushback from conservative Christians who are like, you're not a Christian, like what you're doing is unbiblical. 00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:54.960 And I'm like, well, I'm like literally quoting the Bible. 00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:56.079 So I don't know. 00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:02.880 Then the other side, I get people who are kind of post-Christian or maybe just religion is not relevant to them, and they're like, Why do you care? 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:05.920 Why are you, why is this your project? 00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:23.199 And I'm like, well, unfortunately, like a version of kind of like literally like puritanical values is running our country right now and is like the engine behind a lot of these policies that are very anti-woman and anti-LGBTQ, all the things. 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:33.920 And so to me, I think I have to believe that is my hope, is that if I can convince people that women are people too, and that women matter too. 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:43.440 And that I think for me, as a believer in

God, follower of Christ, that has to go all the way fundamentally to the image of God. 00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:51.119 Because I think if we only have this male perception of God, then we will always inherently elevate male. 00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:57.440 And so I have hope because it has changed my life, my own sense of self. 00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:05.199 And I have hope that it can change, you know, the church on a macro level too. 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:07.199 Chelsea gives me hope. 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:08.639 That was great. 00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:09.920 Thank you. 00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:11.199 Same. 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:22.880 I think I feel, you know, getting to talk to people who are passionate, who are thoughtful, who care about their neighbors, that means the world. 00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:42.719 I mean, I'm getting actually teary, you know, folks who aren't watching us on YouTube, which by the way, we're on YouTube, but I'm getting teary even just thinking about this because when I think about my children, I have a kid who I have two kids, they're both in middle school, they're both figuring out their sexuality and all sorts of stuff, right? 00:58:43.119 --> 00:59:16.079 Um, and so when I think about what kind of world will they inherit, I think I actually just feel a lot of hope watching them and you know, talking with people like we do in this podcast, but also watching the ways that they're being formed by those conversations as their dad and I talk over dinner, as they're around other people, other adults who really care about them, who care about these neighbors who are putting themselves on the line to protect vulnerable people. 00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:34.960 Um, we talked last week with Andre Henry about some of these pastors who for the first time are really just really putting their bodies in the way of unjust detention, for example, or you know, to keep people safe. 00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.519 Advocates like Miss Rachel give me a lot of hope. 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:42.400 I think folks that are really actually willing to spend themselves for other people. 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:50.320 That that gives me hope that this is not that you know, fascism, authoritarianism is not the stronger force in the universe. 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.559 Like what is the strongest force in the universe? 00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:53.360 It's love. 00:59:54.320 --> 01:00:02.880 You know, it is us showing up for each other and embodying the love of God in other people's lives, including in our kids' lives. 01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:11.360 And I, you know, it's a slow, it's a slower journey than authoritarianism. 01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:36.960 You know, it is it is a lot slower to destroy things than to build things, but I think as we continue to build deep relationships with others who are doing this very good work, and as we continue parenting our kids toward this different future, um, I'm hopeful that that is really what will prevail. 01:00:38.800 -->

01:00:40.320 But I'm an optimist, I don't know. 01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:45.519 I want to quote another Bible verse. 01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:52.159 Whatever is good, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is admirable, think about such things. 01:00:52.320 --> 01:01:06.559 And truly, I feel like I'm kind of showing my uh contemplative mystic side right now, but I really, really think that where we spend our energy and intention and focus is what grows. 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:27.679 And so I think this is such an important message for those of us on the Christian left, like just maybe experiment with giving, like tipping the scale of your energy and maybe even just start by noticing like where is most of your energy brain space, when you think about maybe politics, even like where is it going? 01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:32.079 Is it going towards scrolling things that make you mad that you hate? 01:01:33.039 --> 01:01:38.960 Or can you flip that ratio just a little bit towards like what is the world that you want to see? 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:46.559 Like, what are the policies that you want to support and going beyond like double tapping something on the internet? 01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:53.199 And and also like Liz, you you mentioned like our neighborhood, like local politics matter so much. 01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:57.119 Well, that is a beautiful last word. 01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:58.079 Thank you, Chelsea. 01:01:58.320 --> 01:02:02.079 Thanks for joining us this week at Empathy Revolt, Chelsea. 01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:14.159 And listen, if you're a member of the Christian left, like we are, or if you want to understand us weirdos better, subscribe and listen every Wednesday from now till whenever politics becomes boring again. 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:19.920 We're gonna be here having thoughtful, goofy, heartfelt conversations about the latest news in religion and politics. 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.800 And listen, if you have been listening along, we're so grateful for you. 01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.920 Would you consider writing a review or maybe even like sending this podcast to a friend? 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:32.480 We are brand new and indie. 01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:37.360 And so any kind of support is very much appreciated. 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:44.000 Next week, uh, we'll be joined by Mennonite pastor and writer Isaac Viegas. 01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:48.159 Uh, Isaac's a good friend of mine and my former pastor, actually. 01:02:48.400 --> 01:03:02.880 And his book, Migrant God, is rooted in his own experience as an advocate for the undocumented and is one of the best things you can read on the immigration crisis from a kind of theological perspective. 01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:08.480 So uh we'll be talking with Isaac about the latest news on ICE and U.S. 01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:09.760 immigration policy. 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:12.159 So uh you don't want to miss that. 01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:13.440 Great. 01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:15.039 More on that next week, then. 01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:17.119 And now for the credits. 01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:22.079 Empathy Revolt is hosted by me, Jeremy Alder. 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:24.159 And me, Liz Charlotte Grant. 01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:27.119 Our producer is Joshua Johnson. 01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:32.480 Our theme music is by Steve Slag, and our branding and design is by Jeremy Grant. 01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:36.639 We are a part of the Shifting Culture Podcast Network. 01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:43.119 We hope you'll join us next Wednesday, and in the meantime, remember, we're all in this together. 01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:43.920 Bye.