رونوشت کامل Ep 216, Failure Is A Component Of Success

00:05:02.797 it's one thing to think, okay, I'm going to major in this. 00:05:02.797 --> 00:05:07.287 This is the kind of work I'm going to do. And then see these sorts of distinctions, 00:05:07.287 --> 00:05:11.941 as you said, between thought work and the actual hands-on of doing the work. 00:05:12.751 --> 00:05:19.119 So as you were in your first phase being an engineer, were you more designing 00:05:19.245 --> 00:05:23.268 products on the design end or were you actually making the things? 00:05:23.802 --> 00:05:28.737 Actually making the things. So I was hired right out of college to work at Lockheed 00:05:28.737 --> 00:05:31.911 Martin, Marietta, Georgia, which was a great location. 00:05:32.590 --> 00:05:37.507 And we worked in this huge plant. The building was half a mile long, 00:05:37.507 --> 00:05:42.718 and out of one end of it were F-22s moving down an assembly line. 00:05:43.264 --> 00:05:48.535 And the other end, I mean, literally, other end of the building coming out of it was C-130J aircraft. 00:05:49.034 --> 00:05:54.237 And I had a chance to work on the production line indirectly as my very first 00:05:54.237 --> 00:05:59.001 job. And so we would put together projects to help move the production along. 00:05:59.692 --> 00:06:05.659 And so my hands-on first engineering job was building fighter jets. It was incredible. Wow. 00:06:06.588 --> 00:06:11.017 So, you know, you talk about the kind of work, what was that work environment 00:06:11.017 --> 00:06:13.769 like? What was the management like? 00:06:14.727 --> 00:06:21.641 So the first job was I was brought in. There was this very specific software 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:24.132 that they wanted me to learn how to use. 00:06:24.753 --> 00:06:30.529 And I had a mentor that was, you know, not formally a mentor, 00:06:30.529 --> 00:06:35.479 but he was there in the same cube, had years of experience. So he took me under 00:06:35.479 --> 00:06:38.229 his wing. His name is Brian. Incredible, incredible guy. 00:06:38.821 --> 00:06:42.902 And so the environment was very welcoming. I'm 22 years old. 00:06:43.343 --> 00:06:48.496 What was unique about that plant, the average age was 53 at the time, 00:06:48.891 --> 00:06:52.407 and I come in as a 22-year-old, eager to learn and grow. 00:06:52.964 --> 00:06:56.157 And some may say, you know, so how do you fit into an environment like that, 00:06:56.668 --> 00:06:59.749 when everyone is on average different than you? 00:07:00.089 --> 00:07:03.286 And I saw it as, once I started to talk to the people that were there... 00:07:04.353 --> 00:07:07.963 I saw it as this incredible group of people to learn from. 00:07:08.149 --> 00:07:13.648 I mean, the guy that was adjacent to the cube I was in was literally a rocket scientist. 00:07:14.065 --> 00:07:21.208 And so to just have a chance to sit beside him for, you know, 00:07:21.208 --> 00:07:26.834 the first introduction to formal professional career and pick his brain. 00:07:27.251 --> 00:07:30.838 So I went in with this fascination about everyone around me and I had an incredible 00:07:30.838 --> 00:07:34.896 man. I was really, really fortunate. I mean, Beth, they brought me in. 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:39.413 I got to go to training, formal training on how to use the software. 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:44.148 They connected me with all these great people that were very generous and willing 00:07:44.148 --> 00:07:45.177 to share their knowledge. 00:07:45.641 --> 00:07:49.168 And they had a ton of knowledge and I had a great manager on top of that. 00:07:49.168 --> 00:07:53.748 So my introduction was fantastic and it actually allowed me to get a really 00:07:53.748 --> 00:07:55.945 aggressive start to my career. 00:07:56.497 --> 00:07:59.848 What a blessing. I mean, hearing you talk, I think Like that's what we want 00:07:59.848 --> 00:08:03.358 for everybody's first job, second jobs, like all the way down the line. 00:08:03.643 --> 00:08:06.648 It just sounds like the structure is amazing. So not only did they want you 00:08:06.648 --> 00:08:09.968 to learn a particular software, they had extensive training for you to do it 00:08:09.968 --> 00:08:11.542 instead of just learn this. 00:08:11.943 --> 00:08:15.778 Right. And so that cuts that the trial, a trial and error, you know, 00:08:15.778 --> 00:08:17.218 and just the confidence of learning. 00:08:17.218 --> 00:08:21.828 And then I love that you said you had a mentor, not a formal mentor, but he was anyway. 00:08:21.828 --> 00:08:24.948 Right. He and you both treated the relationship that way. 00:08:24.948 --> 00:08:29.898 This sort of generosity of spirit, that when you have a healthy work environment, 00:08:29.898 --> 00:08:33.918 what do you get? You have people who are able to bloom and act that way and 00:08:33.918 --> 00:08:38.702 be generous and have that sort of spirit of camaraderie, real collegiality. 00:08:39.166 --> 00:08:44.988 Because when people feel freed to do their work and to do excellently, 00:08:44.988 --> 00:08:51.998 then it just has this wonderful, fruitful, this fruitfulness of giving. 00:08:51.998 --> 00:08:53.381 That just feels so wonderful. 00:08:54.097 --> 00:08:58.446 Yeah, it was it was incredible. And when I go back and I talk to younger professionals, 00:08:59.009 --> 00:09:03.668 that are starting out, I think a thing that gets missed as an opportunity when 00:09:03.668 --> 00:09:08.714 you're early in your career is to be a sponge and ask questions. 00:09:09.735 --> 00:09:15.085 I mean, literally latch on to some of the people that you work with and, 00:09:15.823 --> 00:09:20.957 just bombard them with as many questions as possible because I don't think there's 00:09:20.957 --> 00:09:25.197 this pressure that younger graduates, for example, I know we're, 00:09:25.197 --> 00:09:27.923 you know, coming in college graduation, folks starting their careers, 00:09:28.446 --> 00:09:31.778 that there's this pressure that they have to know everything.

00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:38.425 But every single human being at that company was in their shoes and remembers not knowing anything. 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:43.367 And so the thing that matters is your eagerness and curiosity. 00:09:43.367 --> 00:09:48.517 Like they know you can learn, which is why you were hired. You weren't hired 00:09:48.517 --> 00:09:50.343 to be the expert right away. 00:09:50.662 --> 00:09:55.967 And so what that does is it gives you license to truly be a sponge. 00:09:55.967 --> 00:10:00.567 And the beautiful thing that I learned about being a sponge and asking questions 00:10:00.567 --> 00:10:03.247 is people love to answer them. Yeah. 00:10:04.387 --> 00:10:08.677 It is so amazing how, and I feel it now, you know, when someone asks me questions, 00:10:08.677 --> 00:10:11.280 it makes me feel great. It's like, oh, I, you know, I have something to share. 00:10:11.827 --> 00:10:16.147 And so to give people that gift just by asking them questions and then you get 00:10:16.147 --> 00:10:20.325 the gift of the knowledge is just something I don't think it gets talked about enough. 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:25.557 I really love that. And thinking about that reciprocity of people love to talk 00:10:25.557 --> 00:10:28.864 about their experience. They want to share. We want to. 00:10:29.258 --> 00:10:33.484 We're eager to say, I tried this. I tried that. What about this? What about that? 00:10:33.989 --> 00:10:37.957 But a lot of times others don't ask because we don't want to be a burden or 00:10:37.957 --> 00:10:42.217 we imposter syndrome or we feel like we should already know, whatever it might be. 00:10:42.217 --> 00:10:46.360 And so these sort of artificial barriers or maybe someone who's more seasoned 00:10:46.650 --> 00:10:49.517 thinks, well, I don't want to impose. 00:10:49.517 --> 00:10:52.437 I don't want them to think that I'm micromanaging them. And so there are all 00:10:52.437 --> 00:10:57.767 these sort of unseen, unspoken barriers that can separate. 00:10:57.767 --> 00:11:02.497 And I think also in our culture right now that we are told constantly that we're 00:11:02.497 --> 00:11:04.787 in a generation war with each other, right? 00:11:04.787 --> 00:11:09.877 That there are these really strong generation divides. And so we kind of are 00:11:09.877 --> 00:11:14.367 now suspect of someone younger or somebody older. And yet... 00:11:15.092 --> 00:11:18.887 Many times it's just not really there. It's just this, what if this is there? 00:11:18.887 --> 00:11:22.046 Or I'm told this is there. So I'm seeing things that aren't. 00:11:22.869 --> 00:11:28.715 Yeah, you are so true. So right. And the idea that there is a war between generations in itself. 00:11:28.872 --> 00:11:34.107 And if someone hears that one time and they latch on to it, it changes the way 00:11:34.107 --> 00:11:38.247 they may interact and may not even realize it's changed the way they interact, 00:11:38.247 --> 00:11:40.453 but they're holding it, you know, subconsciously. 00:11:40.935 --> 00:11:46.688 So, so true. And the beauty of it, though, is any one of us can just decide 00:11:46.885 --> 00:11:52.365 to do differently and reach out to the other and start the relationship. 00:11:52.835 --> 00:11:55.348 Yes, absolutely. Right. We can... 00:11:56.257 --> 00:12:03.019 It's, of course, always wise to pay attention to what's going on and changes around us. 00:12:03.373 --> 00:12:10.105 But it's much wiser to treat individual situations and people as individuals, 00:12:10.105 --> 00:12:14.795 the way that we want to be treated and to try to look at their perspective. 00:12:14.795 --> 00:12:17.875 And so I think sometimes like this narrative from the older generation, 00:12:17.875 --> 00:12:21.835 this, you know, they don't want to work, is sometimes a great forgetting of 00:12:21.835 --> 00:12:24.065 what it was like in my first job. 00:12:24.065 --> 00:12:28.965 And what it was like to feel like I should know things, but I don't. 00:12:28.965 --> 00:12:36.735 And so, and maybe just different generational ideas of how do we interact, right? 00:12:36.735 --> 00:12:40.285 And what is appropriate. And so, you know, getting over those narratives that 00:12:40.285 --> 00:12:47.342 even I think people who've been around for a while sometimes start to hold onto that are not helpful. 00:12:48.156 --> 00:12:52.397 Yes. Narratives that are not helpful, that create division. 00:12:53.162 --> 00:12:59.025 And I know at some point we'll chat about conflict. Conflict is such an interesting 00:12:59.025 --> 00:13:00.906 word. It can be a negative connotation. 00:13:01.463 --> 00:13:02.884 I see it as something positive. 00:13:04.172 --> 00:13:07.365 The challenge becomes when we see it as something negative and we don't see 00:13:07.365 --> 00:13:08.642 it as an opportunity for growth, 00:13:09.315 --> 00:13:14.615 and I've seen where it can go either way you know it kind of digs in and becomes 00:13:14.615 --> 00:13:19.582 a sort of trench a barrier and I've also see it become this incredible bridge, 00:13:20.081 --> 00:13:24.285 so yeah it's all in the human journey and you know learning and growing and 00:13:24.285 --> 00:13:26.309 trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, 00:13:26.936 --> 00:13:31.645 and all we're all doing is showing up and doing the best that we can with what 00:13:31.645 --> 00:13:34.204 we have and so always have empathy for that. 00:13:34.598 --> 00:13:38.995 Yeah, I really, it's so true. We're doing the best we can with what we have. 00:13:38.995 --> 00:13:41.988 And so I think it's a good question about, well, what do we have? 00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:46.783 How am I making myself today so that when I show up tomorrow, 00:13:46.963 --> 00:13:48.353 what do I have at that time? 00:13:48.353 --> 00:13:51.879 And so, quote unquote, what we have is largely, 00:13:52.493 --> 00:13:56.453 a lot of times it is up to us because we can decide to be curious and grow and 00:13:56.453

--> 00:14:02.343 ask questions or decide to listen to some negative mantras and shut down and 00:14:02.343 --> 00:14:06.113 be isolated and have a me versus them sort of mentality. 00:14:06.815 --> 00:14:09.886 Yes, absolutely. And we may not realize we have the choice. 00:14:10.629 --> 00:14:14.199 We just think, oh, this is how I automatically think. This is how I am. 00:14:14.548 --> 00:14:22.687 And it's so fascinating to me that we have as much agency as we do over that. 00:14:23.487 --> 00:14:28.253 Once we realize what's going on based on the neuroscience of how the brain works, 00:14:28.253 --> 00:14:35.713 that we can change even our own identity if we choose to, to become whatever we want it to be. 00:14:36.173 --> 00:14:41.211 And that's a really interesting concept when you sort of balance it with authenticity, 00:14:41.833 --> 00:14:44.563 that I know has been really important for the last several years. 00:14:44.563 --> 00:14:48.243 And so I'm, you know, I'm geeked out about all this stuff. 00:14:48.243 --> 00:14:53.293 I'm now sort of, I call myself people engineering with the work and the book and everything. 00:14:53.293 --> 00:14:57.538 So I see how things work, understand why they work this way, 00:14:58.182 --> 00:15:04.388 how hard it is to change, but that we all can change once we understand what's happening. 00:15:05.108 --> 00:15:07.586 Yeah, I love that. We all can change. And I like what you said. 00:15:08.178 --> 00:15:12.093 It's almost like this great forgetting that we as individuals constantly go 00:15:12.093 --> 00:15:13.449 through. We forget that. 00:15:14.978 --> 00:15:19.028 I have decided that that's what this event means to me, or I have decided that 00:15:19.028 --> 00:15:23.508 I can or can't do something, and that we forget about our agency, 00:15:23.508 --> 00:15:26.808 and we forget that, you know, we tell ourself, I can't do anything else. 00:15:27.272 --> 00:15:28.932 Well, I mean, you can. 00:15:29.758 --> 00:15:33.288 What are the options? You know, what are the consequences for good or for ill 00:15:33.288 --> 00:15:34.720 if I choose one thing over the other? 00:15:35.062 --> 00:15:38.148 And I sit with that for a while, and then it's like, poof, it goes out of my 00:15:38.148 --> 00:15:41.127 head, and I go back to the routine of what I've been doing it. 00:15:41.458 --> 00:15:42.602 It is pretty interesting. 00:15:43.204 --> 00:15:46.818 Right. It is. There's this video I play in a lot of the workshops that we do, 00:15:47.538 --> 00:15:52.434 called The Elephant and the Rope. It's a story of the, have you heard the story before? 00:15:52.915 --> 00:15:58.038 So the story is there's someone that goes to like a circus and he sees this 00:15:58.038 --> 00:16:00.447 huge elephant tied up by a rope. 00:16:00.981 --> 00:16:06.708 And he asked the ringleader, like, how did you keep this huge animal tied to 00:16:06.708 --> 00:16:11.871 this small rope. Like the elephant could just take one step forward and pull it out of the ground. 00:16:12.562 --> 00:16:17.258 And, you know, depending on how you think about this, it's really kind of cruel, but it's true. 00:16:17.618 --> 00:16:21.734 They tie, they use the same size rope to tie them when they're babies. 00:16:22.618 --> 00:16:27.058 And what happens is they're conditioned to believe that they cannot pull away. 00:16:27.438 --> 00:16:30.877 And so now they've grown into these incredibly large creatures, 00:16:31.353 --> 00:16:33.413 but they don't even try anymore. 00:16:34.023 --> 00:16:41.818 And I play that video, and every time I watch it, I get reminded that these 00:16:41.818 --> 00:16:44.912 ropes are there and that I can break them. 00:16:45.583 --> 00:16:51.628 It is fascinating to me that we can know this fact, but forget it every day. 00:16:51.628 --> 00:16:52.822 It's like 50 first dates. 00:16:54.298 --> 00:16:59.109 Every morning I wake up, I have to remind myself these initial thoughts. 00:16:59.736 --> 00:17:03.788 Oh, oh, I'm worried about this and what about that. I have to remind myself 00:17:03.788 --> 00:17:11.069 every morning that that does not have to be my train of thought that guides my day, that I have... 00:17:11.835 --> 00:17:15.487 Agency to choose different thoughts and those thoughts will drive different 00:17:15.487 --> 00:17:18.069 feelings and those feelings will drive different actions. 00:17:18.626 --> 00:17:23.047 Yeah. Gosh, I'm right there with you. Humans are so very interesting. 00:17:23.047 --> 00:17:27.487 We are very interesting in how incredibly free we are and yet those ropes that 00:17:27.487 --> 00:17:32.245 we choose or maybe even some narrative that worked for a particular time for a particular reason. 00:17:32.611 --> 00:17:35.327 But times have changed. I mean, one thing that's changed is you are not the 00:17:35.327 --> 00:17:36.807 same person you were yesterday, right? 00:17:36.807 --> 00:17:42.477 We are constantly changing and adapting and making decisions and solidifying 00:17:42.477 --> 00:17:48.257 behavior one way or the other through what we have chosen to believe and the 00:17:48.257 --> 00:17:50.217 feelings that we have and then the actions that we do. 00:17:50.913 --> 00:17:55.842 Absolutely. Absolutely. I have a concept in the book I call fall down, grow up. 00:17:56.769 --> 00:18:00.367 And the idea is, you know, when something happens and we quote unquote fall 00:18:00.367 --> 00:18:02.808 down, a lot of times we'll say, get back up. 00:18:03.336 --> 00:18:08.457 And the way I think about it is we don't see that as an opportunity just to 00:18:08.457 --> 00:18:10.662 get up, but we see it as an opportunity to grow up. 00:18:10.802 --> 00:18:15.789 And there's some growth that can come from it and that growth never stops. 00:18:15.917 --> 00:18:23.827 And each time we fall, there's an opportunity to get stronger and more expansive. 00:18:23.827 --> 00:18:28.322 And there's something for us to learn in that moment,

just like a setback. 00:18:28.624 --> 00:18:32.177 You know, we don't necessarily want to come back from a setback. 00:18:32.177 --> 00:18:35.067 I think we want to come forward as opposed to come back. So, 00:18:35.067 --> 00:18:40.227 you know, these interesting slight tweaks to the way we think about the circumstances 00:18:40.227 --> 00:18:42.143 and what happens to us on a daily basis. 00:18:42.607 --> 00:18:47.385 And the fact that just because we've done something over and over again and, 00:18:47.849 --> 00:18:51.274 fallen down, gotten up, fallen down, gotten up, maybe we just haven't, 00:18:51.808 --> 00:18:58.083 decided to change the way we look at this and reflect on what can we learn and grow from it. 00:18:58.664 --> 00:19:00.399 And then we won't have that fall again. 00:19:01.283 --> 00:19:06.718 Or we continue to have bigger and bigger falls and we have the capacity to handle 00:19:06.718 --> 00:19:10.595 them, which is the definition of growth in my eyes. 00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:14.635 Let's talk a little bit about this idea of failing or falling. 00:19:15.748 --> 00:19:19.708 Our culture is an ode to winning. We want to win. 00:19:19.708 --> 00:19:24.088 We want to win everything. We think about sports, our love affair with sports. 00:19:24.088 --> 00:19:28.328 And you can look at a culture and see what they care about by what do they prize 00:19:28.328 --> 00:19:32.761 and who gets the biggest salaries. And we love a winner. Of course we love a winner. 00:19:33.108 --> 00:19:39.388 I mentioned graduation. I just went to a graduation ceremony where the salutatorian 00:19:39.388 --> 00:19:40.664 spoke, the second person. 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:44.288 And she gave a talk about being second and how hard that was. 00:19:44.608 --> 00:19:48.648 She's second out of this class of all of these people. So she's got all these 00:19:48.648 --> 00:19:50.278 medallions, but she's second. 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:56.908 And we do have this kind of narrative that all that matters on the podium, 00:19:56.908 --> 00:19:59.226 what really matters is first place. 00:19:59.806 --> 00:20:05.468 And as if anybody who's coming in first, there's a whole, you know, 00:20:05.468 --> 00:20:08.908 whole history behind them of when they did not, right, of all, 00:20:09.681 --> 00:20:13.588 the failing or the falling to get to, right, the perseverance and the resilience 00:20:13.588 --> 00:20:18.758 that they had to inculcate and develop in order to get to when they won. 00:20:18.758 --> 00:20:22.446 But winning today does not mean that that's the next thing that's going to happen. 00:20:22.974 --> 00:20:30.287 So tell us, talk a little bit about this idea of how we should think about momentary falls and failures. 00:20:31.043 --> 00:20:35.914 Yes, they are so revered. There is this... 00:20:37.406 --> 00:20:43.797 Stigma with failure as a thing, as if it's like this overarching, 00:20:44.963 --> 00:20:51.383 you fail or you succeed. And if you fail, you are

failure as an identity. 00:20:51.723 --> 00:20:57.503 And it's so fascinating to me that it's the exact opposite and that failure 00:20:57.503 --> 00:21:03.153 is an actual component to success. Like it's the peanut butter and the peanut 00:21:03.153 --> 00:21:04.223 butter and jelly sandwich. 00:21:04.643 --> 00:21:07.714 You can't have success without failure. 00:21:08.483 --> 00:21:13.113 And what I've learned to do for myself, and you mentioned college graduates, 00:21:13.113 --> 00:21:16.613 I have a daughter that just graduated from college. She came out of Hampton 00:21:16.613 --> 00:21:19.275 University last weekend. 00:21:19.734 --> 00:21:23.126 We just celebrated her with a graduation party this weekend. 00:21:23.805 --> 00:21:27.823 And there's all this pressure to have everything figured out and to not fail 00:21:27.823 --> 00:21:28.920 and go out into the world. 00:21:29.587 --> 00:21:35.033 And what I try to help people understand and really think about the way that 00:21:35.033 --> 00:21:42.509 they think about accomplishment is that everything, if you think of everything as just a practice. 00:21:43.524 --> 00:21:49.556 We start to get caught up in every moment feeling like the game winning shot or not. 00:21:50.296 --> 00:21:55.361 And if we can just shift to, I'm just constantly practicing. 00:21:55.981 --> 00:21:59.743 And, you know, it could be the big job interview that you get or you don't get 00:21:59.743 --> 00:22:03.969 or the promotion or, you know, or the marriage or the, whatever the thing is. 00:22:04.618 --> 00:22:10.406 But if you can shift to it as just a practice, and no matter what happens, 00:22:10.846 --> 00:22:13.564 I'm going to learn, which is going to be a win. 00:22:14.179 --> 00:22:19.366 If you can make that your thought habit, then a couple of things happen. 00:22:19.746 --> 00:22:24.958 One is you take the pressure off of the outcome. 00:22:25.080 --> 00:22:31.086 And the reason that matters, there's science that shows when we are so clamped 00:22:31.086 --> 00:22:35.214 and tightened on trying to get something done, a lot of times that will block 00:22:35.563 --> 00:22:38.379 the very resources in our brains we need to get it done. 00:22:39.086 --> 00:22:44.004 So you release the parts of your brain that will give you the best possible outcome. 00:22:44.664 --> 00:22:51.671 And no matter what happens, you literally do grow and learn from it, which is the win. 00:22:52.281 --> 00:22:56.186 And so that slight shift is something that I've used personally in my life. 00:22:56.186 --> 00:23:00.681 It's something that I teach to others, especially young people, 00:23:01.105 --> 00:23:04.476 but older people as well. Because, you know, So again, everything we just talked 00:23:04.476 --> 00:23:07.836 about with how we think this is just how we are, the older we get, 00:23:07.836 --> 00:23:10.038 the more we think this is just how we are. 00:23:10.503 --> 00:23:18.100 But I've seen people 60, 65, 70 years old

that decide to make a change and it's never too late. 00:23:18.274 --> 00:23:23.106 And so this idea of simply, hey, everything is a practice and no matter what 00:23:23.106 --> 00:23:24.921 happens, I'm going to be able to learn and grow from it. 00:23:25.194 --> 00:23:27.423 It's something we can pick up no matter what age we are. 00:23:28.422 --> 00:23:31.707 I love that. There's so much packed in what you just said. And as you were talking, 00:23:32.090 --> 00:23:36.636 it made me think about our lives, right? And we think about our life as a road. 00:23:37.146 --> 00:23:40.542 That's really the case, right? We are a collection of our experiences. 00:23:42.504 --> 00:23:46.726 We are who we are today by what we chose to do and think about and behave in 00:23:46.726 --> 00:23:48.988 our past, right? And we're constantly collecting. 00:23:49.534 --> 00:23:52.616 And yet, I think a lot of times we think, what are we trying to do? 00:23:52.616 --> 00:23:55.456 We're trying to achieve X and then Y and then Z. 00:23:55.466 --> 00:23:57.016 Like we have and those are good 00:23:57.016 --> 00:24:00.238 things right like it's good to have these things that we want to achieve. 00:24:01.383 --> 00:24:06.666 It's as if everything is wasted or we're treading until we get to the wind, 00:24:06.666 --> 00:24:08.639 until we get to this one particular thing. 00:24:09.260 --> 00:24:11.346 But really, that's not what life is like. 00:24:12.286 --> 00:24:16.846 If it's a road or summit, once you climb, you see there's the next thing and then the next thing. 00:24:16.846 --> 00:24:24.246 And so if we see those wins or losses are parts along the road of our life and 00:24:24.246 --> 00:24:29.680 everything is informing us, the victories are sweet, but it's not all about the victory. 00:24:29.803 --> 00:24:34.196 I mean, you know, the tired line, it's the climb, you know, but it really is. 00:24:34.196 --> 00:24:39.266 I mean, what is life? The sweetness of life is found in the everyday because that's where we live. 00:24:39.266 --> 00:24:43.096 I mean, we live in the everyday. We get a few mountaintop experiences and a 00:24:43.096 --> 00:24:48.156 few very Death Valley experiences, but most everything else is going along the 00:24:48.156 --> 00:24:52.187 line. So what do we want the everyday to be filled with? 00:24:52.836 --> 00:24:58.166 Oh, that is, that might be my favorite question, Mary, because I've gotten more 00:24:58.166 --> 00:24:59.716 and more clear on the answer to this. 00:25:00.348 --> 00:25:04.786 So I'll share a story, a quick story about a flight that I took that gave me 00:25:04.786 --> 00:25:05.840 this incredible lesson. 00:25:06.415 --> 00:25:10.926 So I took, it was my first international flight and I had the opportunity to 00:25:10.926 --> 00:25:21.100 fly business class and I flew from Atlanta to Paris and then Paris to Northern Africa. 00:25:21.808 --> 00:25:26.771 So there was a long leg from Atlanta to Paris and then a shorter leg on

the second. 00:25:27.259 --> 00:25:30.956 On the way there in business class, first I got to business class and I realized, 00:25:30.956 --> 00:25:33.389 wow, I never really knew what goes on up here. 00:25:33.863 --> 00:25:36.368 This is nice. You know, it felt different. 00:25:37.018 --> 00:25:40.676 But I had this big meeting that we were going to Northern Africa for. 00:25:40.676 --> 00:25:43.996 So I was just really focused on that. I had my laptop. I didn't really pay attention. 00:25:44.623 --> 00:25:47.827 So we get there, we have the meeting, and then I'm on my way back. 00:25:48.733 --> 00:25:52.616 And on my way back is when something magical happened. 00:25:53.361 --> 00:25:57.471 So we're on the long seven-hour flight from Paris back to Atlanta. 00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:04.528 And without the worry of the destination and the goal, I was able to just kind 00:26:04.528 --> 00:26:07.312 of sit back and enjoy the flight. 00:26:07.721 --> 00:26:11.958 Now, the reason this mattered is because there are certain things that were 00:26:11.958 --> 00:26:14.496 happening that I missed completely the first time. 00:26:15.117 --> 00:26:19.838 So we think of a plane as like the ride on the plane is the journey in life. 00:26:19.838 --> 00:26:21.694 And then the destination is the goal. 00:26:22.257 --> 00:26:27.990 I had a destination both ways, but coming back, I was able to really focus on the journey. 00:26:28.588 --> 00:26:33.298 And, you know, so they, we sit down, they bring out like glass of champagne 00:26:33.298 --> 00:26:34.838 before the plane even takes off. 00:26:35.138 --> 00:26:37.908 I didn't even pay attention. I missed that the first time. Wow. 00:26:37.908 --> 00:26:40.291 Champagne. Wow. This is nice. Okay. 00:26:40.593 --> 00:26:43.217 So then I open up my little screen. I have movies. 00:26:43.687 --> 00:26:47.147 They take my order for food, this elegant meal. 00:26:47.681 --> 00:26:52.394 So I'm like watching a movie, eating great food. 00:26:52.876 --> 00:26:58.176 They bring out another snack. I take a nap. I wake up, drink more champagne, 00:26:58.571 --> 00:27:01.253 have another snack, watch the movie again. 00:27:01.915 --> 00:27:03.656 And then this was the moment. 00:27:04.998 --> 00:27:08.158 I'm sitting there about to doze off and I smell... 00:27:09.503 --> 00:27:16.863 Freshly baked chocolate chip cookies. And it was like, this is the best flight I've ever been on. 00:27:17.153 --> 00:27:22.424 It was so much so that when we started to descend, I was sad. 00:27:23.235 --> 00:27:26.743 I literally, you know how a long flight over is. 00:27:27.434 --> 00:27:31.689 So what I learned in that moment was the journey. 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:35.715 When the journey is amazing, we don't care about the destination. 00:27:35.715 --> 00:27:40.235 And so what that has done, and I have this chapter in this stabilizer in the 00:27:40.235 --> 00:27:44.097 book called the 1440 method. And it's based on the idea. You just said it,

00:27:44.445 --> 00:27:49.635 you know, our daily experiences, our day is our life and 1440 minutes in every day. 00:27:50.006 --> 00:27:56.489 So how do we design a life that we just love the daily experience? 00:27:56.849 --> 00:28:03.195 We set the goals and the milestones and all the things, but how do we make sure 00:28:03.195 --> 00:28:07.945 that we're connecting with the people that we really like to be around on a 00:28:07.945 --> 00:28:09.902 daily basis or weekly basis. 00:28:10.587 --> 00:28:15.624 How do we think about the work that we do and not just what we're doing, 00:28:15.624 --> 00:28:16.659 but where we're doing it? 00:28:16.932 --> 00:28:19.341 You know, can we take that call 00:28:19.771 --> 00:28:24.420 while we walk outside in nature as opposed to sit and look at a screen? 00:28:24.844 --> 00:28:30.301 Can we make that reach out afterwards to that friend at work that, 00:28:30.661 --> 00:28:34.564 you know, we just really enjoy being around and they always say something funny 00:28:34.564 --> 00:28:38.434 and, you know, we're just intentional about spending time with that person? 00:28:39.004 --> 00:28:45.414 Or can we choose an assignment that we have this deep curiosity that maybe is 00:28:45.414 --> 00:28:49.494 outside of what our normal job is, but we're just really interested in learning 00:28:49.494 --> 00:28:52.695 about doing this thing in the community or this new initiative at work. 00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:57.644 So all of these things are available to us once we figure out, 00:28:57.644 --> 00:29:00.990 like, what is our average perfect day look like? 00:29:01.499 --> 00:29:05.824 And then we can build a life that is filled with these days. 00:29:05.824 --> 00:29:09.144 And then ultimately, back to what you said, and there's a quote about this, 00:29:09.144 --> 00:29:11.268 how we spend our days is how we spend our lives. 00:29:11.761 --> 00:29:15.904 And you just create this thing where the journey, the journey is the goal. 00:29:17.514 --> 00:29:20.104 The journey is the goal. Gosh, I love everything you just said. 00:29:20.104 --> 00:29:24.384 And, you know, think about these goals, right? It's very hard to, 00:29:24.984 --> 00:29:28.164 if you think about work, right? So we think maybe somebody's in a difficult 00:29:28.164 --> 00:29:32.415 work situation or whatever it might be. and we don't know what to do. 00:29:32.938 --> 00:29:37.084 A lot of times we don't know what to do because we're not sure what our goal 00:29:37.084 --> 00:29:39.254 is other than, I don't like this. 00:29:39.521 --> 00:29:41.744 This is wrong. Something is wrong. 00:29:42.524 --> 00:29:46.824 I have the Monday Scaries. I'm crying in my car. I don't like how I'm being 00:29:46.824 --> 00:29:48.304 treated. This is not right. 00:29:48.884 --> 00:29:52.286 And those are all obviously really good pieces of information. 00:29:52.843 --> 00:29:58.344 But then a lot of people get stuck because the goal is a very good goal. 00:29:58.684

--> 00:30:02.698 It's nebulous, but it's to not be in pain. Okay. But, 00:30:03.771 --> 00:30:07.068 But if we don't have very specific, as you said, wonderfully put, 00:30:07.225 --> 00:30:11.220 if I don't know what my ideal day is, if I don't know how I want to curate my 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:17.550 life, this takes intentionality and thought and it's dynamic given many different circumstances. 00:30:17.550 --> 00:30:23.189 If I'm not thinking that way, then it's very easy to sort of buffer in this, 00:30:24.234 --> 00:30:29.600 not being satisfied, being lonely, being however it might be that we're not 00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:33.848 moving forward in a way that is conducive to living the best kind of human life. 00:30:34.968 --> 00:30:40.282 Yes, there's science that explains how to design a life that we love. 00:30:40.596 --> 00:30:47.133 There's this acronym DOS, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins. 00:30:47.470 --> 00:30:53.550 Neurochemicals that when released in our brains make us feel good and we can 00:30:53.890 --> 00:31:00.193 self-dose ourselves with the things that we do, things that we think about, 00:31:00.895 --> 00:31:06.950 and with understanding the things that will give us those neurochemical releases, 00:31:07.194 --> 00:31:10.659 we can be intentional about just dosing ourselves all day. 00:31:12.877 --> 00:31:18.729 Dopamine, for example, is this chemical that's released, and this goes back, 00:31:18.729 --> 00:31:25.629 you know, it's, you think about back when we had to worry about being eaten by, you know, lions. 00:31:25.629 --> 00:31:29.653 And so these chemicals are released, you know, for reasons of survival. 00:31:30.332 --> 00:31:36.439 But if you think about as a mammal, best analogy is like a lion that sees a 00:31:36.439 --> 00:31:39.590 gazelle and they think they can go get the gazelle. 00:31:40.013 --> 00:31:45.519 The energy comes from dopamine and once they see that the thing is there the 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.829 goal is there they're close to it they get this rush of dopamine and give them 00:31:48.829 --> 00:31:53.043 the energy to make the chase we get the same thing when we see something that we really want, 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.449 then we can give ourselves a dose of dopamine and you know so you have to be 00:31:57.449 --> 00:32:00.319 careful about that so we can get through social media and all these unhealthy 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.819 ways but we can also get it, 00:32:03.336 --> 00:32:08.833 by setting up a coffee or a lunch with someone that we really enjoy being around. 00:32:09.454 --> 00:32:13.699 And every time we think about that date or that time that we're going to see 00:32:13.699 --> 00:32:15.393 them, we get a hit of dopamine. 00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:19.789 And people don't realize that it's that simple. And there's a long list of things 00:32:19.789 --> 00:32:22.529 I can go through, but it's really that simple. 00:32:22.949 --> 00:32:25.868 You find the things

that are good for you that you enjoy doing, 00:32:26.392 --> 00:32:29.879 and you very intentionally, though, have to think those things through. 00:32:29.879 --> 00:32:33.909 And then you just fill your life with them, and you can dose yourself all day. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.969 I love that. I feel like we've been dancing around talking about your book. 00:32:37.969 --> 00:32:39.126 So let's just talk right about it. 00:32:39.463 --> 00:32:45.459 Disrupted, which is the two stabilizers and seven accelerators of growth through 00:32:45.459 --> 00:32:50.236 chaos. So tell us about your book, what brought it about and what we'd find inside of it. 00:32:50.642 --> 00:32:56.349 Yes, I love this topic for obvious reasons. So, you know, I backed into this book. 00:32:56.989 --> 00:33:01.739 I had just tons of things that I was thinking about and had to figure out a 00:33:01.739 --> 00:33:05.256 way to try to get it out of just the clients that we work with. 00:33:05.952 --> 00:33:11.646 And the book is step-by-step guide as well as a framework, 00:33:12.372 --> 00:33:16.476 for creating a life that you love, and, 00:33:17.180 --> 00:33:21.221 being able to treat every disruption 00:33:21.662 --> 00:33:27.902 as a part of the journey that is an intentional part of the journey. 00:33:29.164 --> 00:33:36.613 Traditionally, I was a person who didn't want to deal with my own emotional 00:33:36.613 --> 00:33:39.983 regulation and thinking about what's happening to me. I'm an engineer. 00:33:39.983 --> 00:33:41.722 I thought emotions were a distraction. 00:33:42.534 --> 00:33:46.363 And things like what I mentioned about Dose and some of the other things that 00:33:46.363 --> 00:33:51.503 I've learned are what this book is designed to teach someone so that they can 00:33:51.503 --> 00:33:54.765 lay out a framework for what they want their life to be. 00:33:54.916 --> 00:33:59.923 And then they have tools that help them take steps from where they are today 00:34:00.303 --> 00:34:01.993 to where they want to be in the future. 00:34:01.993 --> 00:34:06.593 And it's all based on the science of the human experience. You know, 00:34:06.593 --> 00:34:10.372 I think of in leadership, you know, which is the root of it all. 00:34:10.813 --> 00:34:15.933 Leadership I see as, as like, like gravity, there's science behind it. 00:34:15.933 --> 00:34:22.151 And just like gravity, you don't have to believe in it for it to weigh you down. 00:34:23.463 --> 00:34:28.213 So the principles in the book are the science of how this stuff works. 00:34:28.213 --> 00:34:34.537 And you're going to run into challenges and how you not react to them, but respond to them, 00:34:35.193 --> 00:34:40.903 will determine the kind of experience that you have with those challenges and 00:34:40.903 --> 00:34:45.246 ultimately whether you get to your goals as fast as you would like. 00:34:45.902 --> 00:34:49.673 So it's the best of both worlds where you're enjoying the journey and you're 00:34:49.673 --> 00:34:51.596 getting to the destination faster. 00:34:52.235 --> 00:34:58.073 And so the engineer brain in me had to figure out a way to lay that out into 00:34:58.073 --> 00:35:01.430 a framework where people can consistently, 00:35:02.185 --> 00:35:06.483 take the actions that they need to have that experience of enjoying the journey 00:35:06.483 --> 00:35:08.965 and getting to the destination faster. 00:35:10.431 --> 00:35:13.637 That sounds fantastic. You know, when I hear that, you know, 00:35:13.997 --> 00:35:19.517 just even the title of your book, Disrupted, many times we don't like disruption, right? 00:35:19.517 --> 00:35:22.757 It's because I'm trying to do something, and now someone's talking to me, 00:35:22.757 --> 00:35:25.507 right? Like, I finally sat down with my book and a cup of tea, 00:35:25.507 --> 00:35:28.917 and now some of my kid wants something, you know, or something's happening at 00:35:28.917 --> 00:35:33.517 work, or, you know, there's just these sort of disruptions. 00:35:33.644 --> 00:35:37.352 Typically, disruption is seen as something negative, right? 00:35:37.509 --> 00:35:41.337 And of course, we don't want to discount the real pain that people go through, right? 00:35:41.917 --> 00:35:46.385 People get health diagnosis. People, you know, their family members die. 00:35:46.824 --> 00:35:49.326 They get laid off. A company goes under. 00:35:49.917 --> 00:35:52.883 War breaks out, right? They're real huge disruptors. 00:35:54.015 --> 00:35:57.506 And though most of us, I mean, we don't wish harm on anybody, 00:35:57.506 --> 00:35:59.176 of course, but the fact of the 00:35:59.176 --> 00:36:02.763 matter is harm is a part of the human experience. We are going to feel it. 00:36:04.487 --> 00:36:08.936 And the big ones, the small ones. And so that is a fact of life. 00:36:08.936 --> 00:36:11.656 I think, just like conflict, I agree with you. 00:36:11.656 --> 00:36:14.506 Conflict isn't the negative. It's how we deal with conflict. 00:36:14.506 --> 00:36:15.716 In fact, we want good conflict. 00:36:15.716 --> 00:36:20.446 We want managed conflict. But when we don't manage it, then we have these issues, these disruptors. 00:36:20.446 --> 00:36:27.452 And so I see what's really important is accepting reality, which is you will 00:36:27.725 --> 00:36:32.706 experience disruption. You will experience pain or what is painful to you. 00:36:33.147 --> 00:36:36.066 The question is, what are you going to do with that? How long are you going 00:36:36.066 --> 00:36:40.806 to sit with it? How long are you going to make it worse on yourself or not? Right. 00:36:41.667 --> 00:36:45.786 So can you talk a little bit about the reality of really bad things that happen 00:36:45.786 --> 00:36:52.966 to people and thinking about that to, you know, to help on the journey? Mm. 00:36:53.948 --> 00:36:59.706 Yes, because that's the reality, right? Alan Mulally, who was a former CEO of a Boeing, 00:37:00.344 --> 00:37:05.686

commercial and then asked to lead Ford, who I had a chance to connect with as 00:37:05.686 --> 00:37:10.426 I was writing the book and he wrote an endorsement, has this concept that he 00:37:10.426 --> 00:37:13.949 talks about when he got to Ford, where Ford was, 00:37:14.611 --> 00:37:16.499 in the red, huge. 00:37:16.812 --> 00:37:20.725 They were going to lose $17 billion in 2006. 00:37:21.375 --> 00:37:24.796 And he comes in as the CEO and he's going through the business reviews. 00:37:24.796 --> 00:37:28.876 And, you know, they have these red, yellow, green charts on how are we doing? 00:37:28.876 --> 00:37:30.697 And he said, all the charts were green. 00:37:31.363 --> 00:37:36.236 And for weeks, people came in with all green charts. And finally he said, 00:37:36.236 --> 00:37:40.136 hey, hey guys, you know, we're going to lose $17 billion. Like, 00:37:40.136 --> 00:37:41.852 is there anything that's not going well? 00:37:42.886 --> 00:37:49.910 And finally, you know, this brave gentleman comes forward with a red on his slide. 00:37:50.397 --> 00:37:53.253 And Alan said he starts to clap in the middle of the meeting. 00:37:53.903 --> 00:37:56.971 And everyone thinks that, you know, the guy's going to get fired because he 00:37:56.971 --> 00:37:59.638 brought this issue forward. But he starts to clap and he says, 00:37:59.749 --> 00:38:05.581 thank you. Now we can finally address the problem in that we can't solve problems 00:38:05.581 --> 00:38:07.306 that we won't admit exist. 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:12.549 And that is actually a big part of why I titled the book Disrupted. 00:38:13.212 --> 00:38:17.011 Because when we won't acknowledge the problem and we just, oh, 00:38:17.011 --> 00:38:22.031 everything's fine, everyone's fine, you know, then we continue to deal with 00:38:22.031 --> 00:38:26.667 the negative consequence of it and we don't search and find the solution. 00:38:27.294 --> 00:38:32.893 And so when we're going through life and things happen, there is the acknowledgement 00:38:33.033 --> 00:38:38.222 that things are hard or that this thing is hard and there is, 00:38:38.832 --> 00:38:43.261 a need for us to sit with that first. 00:38:44.016 --> 00:38:50.052 And the idea of being able to turn things into gifts is that, 00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:53.921 which is the purpose of the disruption that is going to help us in some way 00:38:53.921 --> 00:39:00.141 we're going to grow from it is that when the thing happens it is giving us a 00:39:00.141 --> 00:39:04.729 new problem to solve think of it as a new weight in the gym to lift, 00:39:05.451 --> 00:39:08.835 and it could be a heavier weight or a lighter weight but either way it's a weight, 00:39:09.532 --> 00:39:16.405 and through this process of lifting the weight, we get stronger and that's the growth. 00:39:17.291 --> 00:39:24.774 And when we get into major life things that happen, that is a huge, huge weight. 00:39:24.995 --> 00:39:30.672 And that is one that, and I've had major

life things happen to me personally, 00:39:31.247 --> 00:39:37.501 that in that moment, you don't wanna hear about, oh, hey, this is a gift. 00:39:39.512 --> 00:39:43.248 Just physiologically, we're not ready for that conversation. 00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:51.162 However, the science says what the science says. And if we do find ways to productively 00:39:51.162 --> 00:39:54.832 move past it, we will become stronger. 00:39:55.192 --> 00:39:59.460 And ultimately, we will have grown our capacity to deal with things. 00:40:00.088 --> 00:40:06.062 And if we truly, truly search, there will be something we can find that becomes 00:40:06.062 --> 00:40:10.052 this new gift that didn't exist before the thing And again, I'm very careful 00:40:10.052 --> 00:40:11.816 on that conversation with life events, 00:40:12.779 --> 00:40:16.322 but on the everyday things that happen or like loss of a job. 00:40:16.322 --> 00:40:20.655 I mean, I, I, the end of my career at Lockheed Martin was technically a layoff, 00:40:21.572 --> 00:40:27.424 and it was that, that started my company Whitman Consulting 10 years ago. 00:40:28.088 --> 00:40:34.272 And, you know, so one would say I had a son that was born two weeks before my 00:40:34.272 --> 00:40:38.270 last day at this company that I was at for 18 years. 00:40:38.951 --> 00:40:40.774 One would think that's a bad thing. 00:40:42.023 --> 00:40:49.686 But it was an incredible gift for so many reasons. One, the company started, of course. 00:40:50.610 --> 00:40:53.960 But two, now as I'm building this business and he's growing, 00:40:54.678 --> 00:40:56.966 I'm getting to teach my son about this. 00:40:58.649 --> 00:41:03.420 And I'm learning all these things about human growth to use for the company, 00:41:04.007 --> 00:41:06.160 that I now get to teach to my son. 00:41:06.665 --> 00:41:10.398 That otherwise he just wouldn't, what he would have gotten was dad late nights, 00:41:10.950 --> 00:41:14.182 not there, maybe not able to go to his track meets because of work. 00:41:14.681 --> 00:41:19.236 But instead he gets a dad that has literally been researching neuroscience for 00:41:19.236 --> 00:41:22.506 10 years and, and, you know, sharing these things and growing him through it. 00:41:23.028 --> 00:41:26.176 So, and there's just a long list of things that can be guessed, 00:41:26.176 --> 00:41:29.160 but the, the idea is we have to acknowledge it. 00:41:29.323 --> 00:41:34.876 And when we truly acknowledge and sit with it and go through the process of 00:41:34.876 --> 00:41:39.251 the grief or whatever it is that we need to move through the negative emotion, 00:41:40.018 --> 00:41:43.059 then we can find a reframe on the other side. 00:41:43.883 --> 00:41:47.163 It really is really well articulated. I agree, right? 00:41:47.511 --> 00:41:52.466 That everything really is an opportunity, is a gift, but it is not a part of 00:41:52.466 --> 00:41:56.496 wisdom and it's not kind to say that to when somebody is actively grieving, right? 00:41:56.496 --> 00:41:59.969 And it's Because anyway, you can't hear it and it sounds inhuman, 00:42:00.521 --> 00:42:06.570 but it is the case and time, depending on what kind of life event it was and. 00:42:07.746 --> 00:42:10.191 That person and who they were before this life event, 00:42:11.160 --> 00:42:14.103 how they come through it, right? What is on the other side? 00:42:14.341 --> 00:42:18.206 But I love the example of a layoff because if you say, okay, 00:42:18.806 --> 00:42:21.481 somebody is getting laid off, what does that mean? 00:42:22.125 --> 00:42:25.866 It doesn't mean anything. I mean, it just means the fact of being laid off, 00:42:25.866 --> 00:42:29.341 but what does it feel? What is the impact? Well, the individual does decide 00:42:29.707 --> 00:42:30.949 on the feeling or the impact. 00:42:31.303 --> 00:42:35.755 It could be something so awful or something so wonderful. It could be just another thing. 00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:43.011 That's what is so very interesting. We think that events or other persons are 00:42:43.011 --> 00:42:46.774 laden with meaning, but we don't realize we're the meaning bringer. 00:42:46.896 --> 00:42:52.001 We decide what has happened. And so with conflict at work, so much of it is 00:42:52.001 --> 00:42:55.161 we are putting a narrative that we think is the God's honest truth, 00:42:55.161 --> 00:42:57.191 like that is it, and that's what it means. 00:42:57.850 --> 00:43:00.880 It doesn't have to mean that. You didn't have to be annoyed. 00:43:01.077 --> 00:43:04.943 You could choose to think, oh, that's just how that person is, and I love diversity. 00:43:05.350 --> 00:43:09.301 Or I can be annoyed, right? These are all choices that we don't realize we're 00:43:09.301 --> 00:43:13.881 making because we think it's outside of us, but it really is inside of us what 00:43:13.881 --> 00:43:16.210 we're seeing and therefore what we're labeling and valuing. 00:43:17.006 --> 00:43:20.831 Absolutely. You know, we do, we get to decide just like anything else, 00:43:20.831 --> 00:43:24.411 how we're going to respond to things. And when it comes to conflict, 00:43:24.411 --> 00:43:29.491 I've grown a really interesting perspective on it in that there's always something 00:43:29.491 --> 00:43:30.945 to learn from the other person. 00:43:32.011 --> 00:43:36.664 No matter how much we may disagree with the other person, 00:43:37.616 --> 00:43:42.711 there's always something to learn because we're learning more about the human 00:43:42.711 --> 00:43:47.667 experience and if someone has a different view than us then, 00:43:48.415 --> 00:43:52.421 they're just another person who's looking at us saying we have a different view 00:43:52.421 --> 00:43:58.271 than them so the opportunity is to be the one that's going to lean in and try 00:43:58.271 --> 00:44:01.967 to understand the other perspective so that we can learn from it. 00:44:02.462 --> 00:44:04.958 And the most amazing thing happens when

we do that. 00:44:06.050 --> 00:44:09.056 They will be more willing to listen to us. 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:14.212 People are willing to listen once they feel heard. So if we can take the posture 00:44:14.212 --> 00:44:20.970 of curiosity just enough to genuinely pay attention and not just prepare our defense, 00:44:21.707 --> 00:44:25.682 and we can articulate back to them, this is when it gets really powerful, 00:44:25.682 --> 00:44:30.496 Mary, articulate back to them what we hear them saying and that we can understand it. 00:44:31.379 --> 00:44:37.422 Then in that instant, you've gained an incredible amount of access to their 00:44:37.422 --> 00:44:41.288 listening because they finally feel like they're being heard. 00:44:41.898 --> 00:44:47.552 And once you break that threshold, then you can usually work through almost anything. 00:44:47.935 --> 00:44:50.948 Not that you're going to agree, but you can agree to disagree. 00:44:51.520 --> 00:44:57.242 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and you keyed in on that word of genuine and genuinely, 00:44:57.242 --> 00:45:00.842 not I'm listening so that. It's my turn to convince you now. 00:45:01.196 --> 00:45:04.696 A lot of times we think we have this moral obligation or whatever business obligation 00:45:04.923 --> 00:45:08.492 to make sure the other person understands like the problem is you've got wrong 00:45:08.492 --> 00:45:12.352 information and I have got to impart the right information and then you're going 00:45:12.352 --> 00:45:14.245 to be like of course Andrea you're right you know, 00:45:15.181 --> 00:45:18.532 but that's not how it is right we all know it's relational and we all know like 00:45:18.532 --> 00:45:21.882 and you know this idea of he who has ears let him hear like well how do you 00:45:21.882 --> 00:45:25.362 get those ears right a lot of times I get those ears because all of a sudden 00:45:25.362 --> 00:45:27.552 I see they're actually attached to a human person. 00:45:28.627 --> 00:45:33.313 This sense of being seen person to person instead of object to object, 00:45:33.313 --> 00:45:36.771 right? And actually entering into a kind of relationship with another person. 00:45:37.288 --> 00:45:41.233 And insofar as we can do that, it doesn't mean we're going to agree with it, 00:45:41.233 --> 00:45:42.965 but I can now humanize that person. 00:45:43.226 --> 00:45:47.453 And two humans who are really operating in that level are going to be able to 00:45:47.453 --> 00:45:51.403 do so much more and really be able to see things they couldn't see and hear 00:45:51.403 --> 00:45:52.717 things they couldn't hear before, 00:45:53.222 --> 00:45:59.283 because we are, you know, this all of these things belonging and how it feels 00:45:59.283 --> 00:46:06.053 to be treated with value and respect allows me to maybe soften or listen and 00:46:06.053 --> 00:46:07.739 consider something else, 00:46:08.268 --> 00:46:12.947 but it's so funny like that is true and yet we still stay in these, 00:46:13.539 --> 00:46:19.253 you know on one side and on the other side and and we just like we're computers 00:46:19.253 --> 00:46:23.873 and we're just fighting for our program to take you know primacy but that's 00:46:23.873 --> 00:46:26.483 not how person's work right right. 00:46:27.283 --> 00:46:31.113 Right take privacy i love that and it goes back to the rope and the elephant 00:46:31.113 --> 00:46:34.924 you know like we think that this is just the way it is and it has to be and 00:46:35.296 --> 00:46:37.843 because it's our it's our initial initial reaction, 00:46:38.557 --> 00:46:46.883 it's us and we don't want to give up who being us as if we're losing by considering 00:46:46.883 --> 00:46:53.521 taking a step back and being curious about the other side it's a rope and once we break it, 00:46:54.055 --> 00:46:59.094 if you're someone who is looking for two things, one, peace of mind, 00:46:59.732 --> 00:47:02.467 and two, to be more influential with others, 00:47:03.136 --> 00:47:06.623 if that's the goal, and you talked about this earlier, kind of having a set 00:47:06.623 --> 00:47:08.273 goal or vision for what you want, 00:47:09.051 --> 00:47:15.001 then it really behooves you to find a way to get the other person to listen to you. 00:47:15.930 --> 00:47:18.473 Again, back to the science, whether we believe in it or not, 00:47:18.722 --> 00:47:22.014 says that once people feel heard, they're a lot more willing to listen. 00:47:22.513 --> 00:47:26.691 So we kind of get to make that decision, but it doesn't feel like it because, 00:47:26.691 --> 00:47:29.761 you know, we're tracked into this programming. 00:47:30.787 --> 00:47:35.372 But once we realize that the programming is just a program and we can reprogram, 00:47:36.052 --> 00:47:42.401 and we're willing to just not do all the work to completely upload a new operating 00:47:42.401 --> 00:47:48.074 system, but just try one little thing to start the process. 00:47:48.689 --> 00:47:52.926 That's the magic. That's when change happens. And it happens over time. 00:47:53.709 --> 00:47:57.321 Yeah. And as you said, you know, sometimes these things are counterintuitive. 00:47:57.321 --> 00:48:00.251 Like, so if we come up across someone like the elephant and the rope, 00:48:00.251 --> 00:48:04.481 and we might want to, with something like an elephant, you know, 00:48:04.481 --> 00:48:07.401 we've got this rope, we want to maybe distance ourself from the rope, 00:48:07.401 --> 00:48:10.831 But with the leaning in, it's pulling closer, right? 00:48:10.831 --> 00:48:14.071 That's that curiosity, which is a superpower, right? 00:48:14.071 --> 00:48:17.351 You know, the curious person hasn't lost. 00:48:17.351 --> 00:48:23.861 They are winning, right? Because what does that person have that really is genuinely curious? 00:48:23.861 --> 00:48:27.575 There's their self-possessed. There's a kind of confidence. There's a kind of, 00:48:28.155 --> 00:48:30.901 you know, I mean, leadership,

right? This is what leadership is, 00:48:30.901 --> 00:48:38.561 is this kind of authority, the authority that I have to really be generous, right? 00:48:39.601 --> 00:48:43.971 And people respond to that. You might respond out of fear to a title, 00:48:43.971 --> 00:48:51.945 but we really respond to how somebody is showing up and empowering others because they are empowered. 00:48:52.508 --> 00:48:56.841 Yes. One of the things I love to ask leaders that are in formal leadership positions 00:48:56.841 --> 00:49:01.059 at a company is why would someone volunteer to follow you, 00:49:01.955 --> 00:49:07.270 Because that is true leadership, is when people will volunteer to follow. 00:49:07.890 --> 00:49:11.893 Not do what we say because we're their manager and we control their performance assessment. 00:49:12.560 --> 00:49:18.070 But what is it about you that would inspire someone to want to follow you? 00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:21.714 And, you know, I was the first to get that question and not have the answer. 00:49:21.993 --> 00:49:25.122 And it took me down this path of everything that I'm sharing with you. 00:49:25.778 --> 00:49:30.690 In that, you know, I thought I knew until I realized, wow, I'm just doing what 00:49:30.690 --> 00:49:32.630 I was told by everyone else. 00:49:32.630 --> 00:49:35.640 And it's, you know, this kind of command and control way of doing things. 00:49:35.640 --> 00:49:38.470 And, you know, they don't really 00:49:38.470 --> 00:49:42.345 have a reason to follow me other than I'm holding the stick, so to speak. 00:49:43.145 --> 00:49:48.910 And when I found that it actually is helpful for me, you know, 00:49:48.910 --> 00:49:54.380 from a peace perspective and a fulfillment perspective to buy into this, 00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:56.118 these counterintuitive truths, 00:49:56.742 --> 00:49:58.750 as well as it's helpful for others. 00:49:59.029 --> 00:50:00.730 It's just, I couldn't turn back. 00:50:02.183 --> 00:50:05.910 It's such a wonderful question. Why would somebody follow me if I don't have 00:50:05.910 --> 00:50:07.930 the carrot, if I don't have the stick or the carrot? 00:50:08.270 --> 00:50:11.616 Why are they following me? Why would they, if they didn't have to? 00:50:12.411 --> 00:50:17.293 So to conflict, if you think about the first job you had versus where you are right now. 00:50:18.510 --> 00:50:22.530 How do you feel about conflict at work and deal with conflict at work? 00:50:22.910 --> 00:50:27.893 Have you grown and developed over time or how have you thought about conflict? 00:50:28.386 --> 00:50:31.970 Definitely have grown and developed. The biggest growth has been, 00:50:32.290 --> 00:50:34.615 I would avoid it like the plague before. 00:50:35.428 --> 00:50:39.095 It's so uncomfortable. It still is so uncomfortable. 00:50:39.768 --> 00:50:45.510 What's different now is I lean into it because it's like the, 00:50:45.968 --> 00:50:48.609 you know, when you're on a roller coaster, whether you like roller coasters 00:50:48.609 --> 00:50:54.409 or not, right before the big drop, there's this anticipation of if you don't like them, 00:50:55.308 --> 00:50:57.578 of this really scary thing that's about to happen. 00:50:58.060 --> 00:51:03.302 But once you do it, you realize, oh, it's not as bad as I thought. 00:51:03.958 --> 00:51:07.199 And then you go through the whole ride and then you're at that end of it. 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:08.409 You're so glad you did it. 00:51:09.249 --> 00:51:15.272 So I now embrace and look for opportunities not to create conflict, 00:51:15.696 --> 00:51:17.832 but to lean into it when it exists. 00:51:18.552 --> 00:51:23.956 And this for me, both personally and professionally, it has been the greatest 00:51:24.136 --> 00:51:26.534 relationship strengthener. 00:51:27.449 --> 00:51:29.471 And I'll say that again, because this is what's ironic. Like, 00:51:30.104 --> 00:51:34.022 this skill is the greatest relationship strengthener, 00:51:34.643 --> 00:51:42.629 not the greatest way to win an argument, not that we're having these conversations 00:51:42.629 --> 00:51:46.089 with people that we may or may not have a relationship with, 00:51:46.089 --> 00:51:49.389 but it is the actual greatest tool. 00:51:50.048 --> 00:51:52.959 Because what happens in conflict, and people don't talk about this, 00:51:52.959 --> 00:51:57.048 is a lot of times it's the first time we truly get to see each other. 00:51:57.890 --> 00:52:00.816 You know, there's a lot of relationships that are. 00:52:01.867 --> 00:52:07.857 Kind of surface level. And when you have a conflict, that means by definition, 00:52:07.857 --> 00:52:11.723 there's beneath the surface that is coming up for both people. 00:52:12.223 --> 00:52:17.797 So if you can work through that conflict, you get closer because you now have 00:52:17.797 --> 00:52:21.943 been exposed to a deeper layer and they've been exposed to a deeper layer. 00:52:22.431 --> 00:52:25.107 And when you work through it, you're connected on a deeper layer. 00:52:25.487 --> 00:52:29.507 And when you think about it like that, then you say, hey, you know, 00:52:29.507 --> 00:52:33.117 how can I, if this thing is existing, let me use some of these tools so that 00:52:33.117 --> 00:52:35.723 we can work through it and get connected on a deeper layer. 00:52:36.446 --> 00:52:40.087 Gosh, I love that. I've been thinking about conflict for a long time, 00:52:40.087 --> 00:52:43.952 and that's just really well put. Thank you. I love that. 00:52:44.353 --> 00:52:47.267 All right, so my last question for you is this. As you look into the future 00:52:47.267 --> 00:52:50.065 of work and think about your 10-year-old out in the workforce. 00:52:52.247 --> 00:52:56.107 What do you hope happens or what needs to happen so that not only will people 00:52:56.107 --> 00:53:00.634 be treated with dignity and respect, but that they'll be encouraged to thrive and flourish. 00:53:01.420 --> 00:53:07.837 You know, I have a

thought about the future of work. And the idea that's emerged 00:53:07.837 --> 00:53:10.604 is kind of interesting and connects to AI. 00:53:11.546 --> 00:53:16.525 Because I think what AI has presented, with all the concern that people may 00:53:16.525 --> 00:53:17.936 have about it taking jobs, 00:53:18.842 --> 00:53:24.023 what it has presented is a disruption, again, back to finding the gift, 00:53:24.749 --> 00:53:28.104 that is pushing us to become better at being human. 00:53:28.821 --> 00:53:35.286 So the future of work, in my opinion, is us figuring out how to human better. 00:53:35.727 --> 00:53:40.745 And figuring out how to human better means understanding all the principles 00:53:40.745 --> 00:53:43.145 that we just talked through in this conversation. 00:53:43.145 --> 00:53:50.985 All these messy, counterintuitive, emotion-driven principles of the human experience 00:53:50.985 --> 00:53:56.086 and how these principles are affecting us in our relationships with other people, 00:53:56.591 --> 00:54:01.066 and how can we show up as a more effective version of ourselves. 00:54:01.531 --> 00:54:07.515 So I think learning about these things, as well as learning about AI and how 00:54:07.515 --> 00:54:11.129 to leverage it for what it is as a tool, which is what it is. 00:54:12.076 --> 00:54:14.075 Combining those two things, I think, 00:54:14.075 --> 00:54:18.643 just elevates our experience as professionals. But you have to do both. 00:54:19.497 --> 00:54:23.467 I've seen folks that stay away from AI by all means. 00:54:24.123 --> 00:54:27.979 Word is going to take away our soul and everything that we have and know. 00:54:28.420 --> 00:54:32.420 And I've seen folks that are just leaning all into AI. And I think it's that balance. 00:54:32.908 --> 00:54:35.645 You know, you kind of think of the left brain, the right brain and left brain 00:54:35.645 --> 00:54:40.646 logic, right brain creativity. So think of left brain is AI, right brain is human. 00:54:41.122 --> 00:54:44.698 And both of them have an opportunity to expand in the future. 00:54:46.078 --> 00:54:49.187 I'm all for more human work, more human workplaces. Well, Andre, 00:54:49.187 --> 00:54:51.848 thank you so much for your time, and what a delightful conversation. 00:54:52.533 --> 00:54:57.344 Yes, my pleasure, my pleasure. This has been great. Well, take care. You too. 00:54:58.134 --> 00:55:06.057 Andre, thank you so much for a stimulating conversation. I just love what you said about conflict. 00:55:06.057 --> 00:55:08.467 It's something that I believe, but the way that you said it, 00:55:08.869 --> 00:55:13.187 that conflict is one of the first opportunities to be seen because now there's 00:55:13.187 --> 00:55:17.207 some, there's subtext or something else going on and we can lean into it we 00:55:17.207 --> 00:55:19.485 can have those conversations and therefore have better, 00:55:20.042 --> 00:55:23.700 working relationships or we can distance ourselves and, 00:55:24.279 --> 00:55:27.094 make it difficult more difficult to work with each other so, 00:55:27.747 --> 00:55:30.647 well thank you for all the work that you're doing and dear listener i encourage 00:55:30.647 --> 00:55:35.577 you to go out and get disrupted the two stabilizers and seven accelerators of 00:55:35.577 --> 00:55:40.097 growth through chaos conflict managed is produced by third-party workplace conflict 00:55:40.097 --> 00:55:42.602 restoration services and hosted by me, Merry Brown. 00:55:42.886 --> 00:55:45.342 You can find us online at 3PConflictRestoration.com. 00:55:45.702 --> 00:55:48.041 Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday. 00:55:48.453 --> 00:55:51.767 And if you would like and subscribe wherever you are listening or watching this 00:55:51.767 --> 00:55:53.306 podcast, it's much appreciated. 00:55:53.887 --> 00:55:59.300 Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected. 00:55:59.590 --> 00:56:02.109 Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care. 00:56:12.204 --> 00:56:18.097 We're going to start for you Run to you Run a red light.