رونوشت کامل Episode #17 - Horses as Inspiration - Self-Illumination through Awareness

that very directly in sharing your work of horses just being an aspect of the big picture. So would you like to share your thoughts and just sort of open things up for us in that light?  Matthias: Okay, so first of all, I would like to thank you for the invitation that I can join the podcast. So thank you for this. So yeah, I do think one of the biggest problems, these days, in the people who work with horses, is that we really see it from a too narrow perspective. That's also one of the reasons why, for a little while, that I really tried to focus on a different chapter of my life, that I was focusing on something really without the horses, because sometimes I just felt too limited in the things that I really wanted to explain to people. So now, only just like a couple of months ago, I came back to the horses, because I did find a way to really explain it, just with a different type of approach. But I do think it's of a very big importance to really make a connection of how we really live life, our daily life, and how we can really draw this line, draw this line in our connection with horses. And I think it's very important to really see this connection, because otherwise it's going to be very difficult to really go to a deeper layer in really connecting with them. I completely agree that's one of the most important things to really, in my opinion, really understand in our work with ourselves, but also with the horses.  Kerri: I am with you a 100%. I mean, we are the humans touching, handling, being with, working with horses. And so often people don't even realize that they're excluding themselves from that relationship, like trying to put something to the horse, or on the horse, or get something from the horse, without really embracing themselves with the same kind of compassion, love, or dedication. And Kathy, do you have anything?  Kathy: Well, yeah, I mean, as soon as we started talking about this, the word teacher came into it. For me, the horses are the teachers. And I totally hear what you're saying as well, Kerri, about not to lose ourselves in that equation, if you like. But for me, personally, the horse took me to energy. I mean, that was literally over a weekend, 21 years ago. I went in as a scientist, and I came out, I had no idea what I was. But all of my perceptions, and all of my previous beliefs had changed completely. I was completely renewed. And it's taken 20 odd years to sort of get to some idea where I'm at. So they are my teachers. They are the ones that have led me here.  But it is a conversation. And it's being aware of who you are, what you bring, as much as what we are doing with the animal, with the horse. And for me, it's becoming more and more about being with the horse rather than doing anything. And that has been very deep, and especially at the moment, because both my horses have decided to have different little things going on, “Oh, I've got a bop over here,” and “I've got another bop over there,” which is, it's

almost like they're going, “Okay, now, where are we going now? Because we can't do anything, we're going to be with you.” And for me, it's about congruence, it's about how I bring my energy to them, how I stand beside them, and listen to them and see what resonates back. I mean, I've got so much information from them, in just sitting quiet, with a book open, and all of the words come through. And I just sit there. And I don't know, when I'm sitting with the horse, is it they that are giving me the information, or the very fact that I sit there in a certain mindset, because I'm quiet, and I'm being, and everything is let loose, those thoughts can come to me? So they're the facilitator to that process. And it doesn't matter which way it is, but me being me, I always want to know how and why, because that's the scientist in me,  that's my modus operandi.  But yeah, so I just see them as these beautiful sounding boards of how we can recognize ourselves. How we can let go of so many constructs we are taught, “You need to be this and you need to be that.” No, you don't. And it's not about losing yourself. I really hear what you say, Kerri, that we are just as- I'm going to say ‘important.’ We are a part of the equation, we are a necessary part of the equation between the two of us. So I have no idea if what I've said made sense. But I just believe they are these beautiful teachers. Should we be still enough to listen. Suzi: Kathy, I love that. And I resonate with that now. So I grew up in this 3D eventing horse show, horse training, you know, I think the latest natural horsemanship comment was like ‘benevolent overlord or leaders,’ some sort of comment like that. And I always thought it was such an interesting thing, that we kind of are like driving, having animals that are our companion animals, which is what we do here, has been so beautiful. Because it's helped me get in touch with what my true motivations are. And so getting in touch with myself, and also being really honest with myself about what is my motivation in this scenario, whatever that might be. If my interactions with the animal is-what is my real motivation? I can have this thought in my head, some benevolent thing, but somewhere deep down, there's some kernel that may not be authentic. There's some kernel there of me wanting something to happen. And I love the fact that you're just like, “My ponies have given me,” they're like, “I have this issue and I have that issue so you're going to sit and read with me and all of the information due to our stillness is going to come into this world that we're sitting in right now and make itself aware.” And I love the fact that as a scientist, I'm always, “How did that happen? How does that toaster work?” So this helps us. I think it really helps us get in touch with the fact that, sometimes we'll never know how the toaster works. It just does, and it's perfect. Kerri: I was having a conversation with a small group of people yesterday about the human sort of default setting of domination, dominating. To the degree that most people don't even realize the training methods that are dominating, largely because we tend to go through the world dominating ourselves before we even get to the horse. And so we were playing in a great subtlety yesterday, literally these people were in the saddle, they were riding. But just going for a walk with your awareness organized to notice, like Kathy was just saying, if you're going to, or no, Suzi you were just saying, “If I'm going to ask my horse to turn, why? If I'm going to apply my leg, where does that come from?” And are the thoughts from a partnership, for example, of, “ I'm so curious of what's in that barrel, let's go check it out.” OK, that is one motivation, not to say that that's the correct one. But it's different from a motivation of, “Okay, people are watching me, and now you should probably bend around this turn. So I'm going to pull here, and I'm going to push there.” And people don't necessarily realize that before they ever apply pressure to a horse, they've applied pressure to themselves, from a largely unconscious place where we end up dominating our own thoughts to satisfy whatever we think we need to satisfy in the moment. It's a great subtlety, but it is so strong in why we do what we do.  Matthias: Yeah, for sure. It's one thing I also would really like to add on this. Kathy, you said something very interesting, that the horses are like teachers. And obviously, I completely agree but I do think it's very important these days to make a difference in between the domesticated horses and the wild horses. Because there was, through all the clinics I gave and all the other stuff, I do know, for instance, a lot of domesticated horses, they are so much, and let us say, if you just buy a horse, and it was already 6 years old or 10 years old, because that happens often, you buy a horse at a certain age, they already adapted so much to the previous owner, that it becomes really much more difficult to learn from this pure being. Because it's already adapted to the other person.  So I think I completely agree with a lot of horses for sure. And especially if like a wild one or a really young foal, obviously, it's going to be a great teacher. It's like a relationship between man and woman. You're always going to see you adapt to each other, you adapt yourself to the other person. And the other person is going to teach you the positive things about you and the negative things. And it's the same thing with a horse. He knows exactly how you are in your way of being. And what can you improve? And what are you doing good? So I, let us say, to explain kind of short, I do think that really one of the most important things that I've learned so far with horses is what's the background also with the horse? There's a really huge difference between this thing. And that's also the reason why, for instance, for my job, it is really to ride horses in liberty.

It's 10 times easier, in my opinion, to ride a horse, completely pure, with a clean background, because then it can just adapt to my energy, my way of being. But if I ride a domesticated horse, and I'll say, it's a calm horse, but in a lot of ways, it's already desensitized. The real energy of really being a pure horse is not there anymore, in a lot of cases. So I think there's a very, very big difference between this. Amelia: I think this brings up some interesting ideas of awareness, right? So if every time you're checking in, and breathing,  I think, it feels like a lot of times people simply aren't breathing, and bringing that awareness to themselves before being part of the horse's environment, is super important. It’s a blank slate, right? So every minute that you're there, whether they're wild or domestic or anything, it's giving them that space, that this is a whole new minute.  It's never happened before. And I think that, because often, it's so easy to get caught up in these stories as well, right? For ourselves, and for our clients, and for horses or animals. Matthias: I completely agree with what you're saying. The thing is just, of course, it's the same thing as people. Everything, with a horse, everything is memories. The smell is a memory. The wind is a memory. People are memories. Obviously, when I worked with horses in the past, I also didn't want to know the background of the horse, because obviously you're going to create the problem that's already there and you're just going to nourish it. So I completely agree. But sometimes, obviously, in some cases, it can be interesting, because if you go outside for a walk, and for some kind of reason, a certain kind of tree makes a certain kind of noise, and there is a connection with this tree in a bad situation, it's not about us. Even if you're completely calm, even if you're completely grounded, there is still a possibility that the horse will spook.  And then people are going to think about this, and this, and it’s going to make it even more complicated than it already is. So it's always a very thin line between really being in the moment but also understanding the horse also obviously has a background already before being around you. And that's really one of the most important things people have to remember these days, is to really know the difference between domesticated horses and wild horses.  And one more thing, and then I will stop talking. The same thing with horses, the one thing that I really learned is that every horse, almost every horse we see today, and breeds of horses, they're all created by us people. You know, if you have the Irish cob in Ireland or in England, they're all, generally speaking, they're always kind of calm. They're very simple, they're not too complicated. They're very soft characters. The reason why this is because obviously there was the time from the gypsies, so they only needed to do one thing, just to pull the carriages. So, you need a very calm

horse and a very soft horse. If there was a horse that was very complicated, what did they do? They were never going to keep breeding with this horse, because that was not the purpose. So, they would just shoot the animal and eat it. Now, if you look at the other perspective, these days you have a lot of horses in the competition industry, let's say, it's the complete opposite. What's the most important thing there is about having a good body, having the good papers and making the money. The characters we don't care about at all. So, we breed with all the characters, we breed with all the things, and that's why obviously it happens often. A lot of complicated horses exist in this kind of industry. I'm just showing two different extremes.  That's one more thing about this. I showed you Irish cobs, I showed something about dressage horses, but like this you have a lot of characters, breeds of horse, bred for specific reasons. Now if we buy, for instance, a horse, and we want to do liberty kind of work, you know, so you really need to have a horse that's focused and needs to have a connection. But if this horse was bred to really focus on something else, or have a different kind of purpose, then it's going to be 10 times more difficult to really get to the same goal with this type of horse. So, it's very important, like if you get a horse, “What's his background? What's his character?” And you have to adapt to this way of being. And then you always try to put the line into our daily life. If you have a construction worker, in most, well not most cases, but often they're kind of happy, you know, they come to the construction building site, they drink a beer, they talk with the guys, a beautiful woman passes by, they're going to whistle, they're having fun, it's just their way of being. But if you're going to put an engineer or a doctor at this construction site, it's not going to fit, because that's not his way of being. It's the same thing the opposite way around. I think one of the most important things is really understanding the character you have in front of you, and really trying to work with this, and not really not wanting to change his way of being or their way of being. Kerri:   Thank you, Matthias, that brings up a question to me that seems so potent. There are debates about how much of a horse's background or a person's background you need to know. Do you need to know the details, or is there a difference between knowing the details of somebody's background and being aware of their character, as you're saying, right? Like what we're saying: we need to know the horse's background. Are we saying their background as in their character, their breed, their worldview? Or is it important to know, “Oh, in 1972 this horse experienced that spooking arrangement, and then there was a plastic bag on last Sunday.” Do we need that kind of background? Is that what's important about the background, or what's the difference between knowing the details of somebody's background and being aware of their character, as I hear you pointing to right there. And Leslie, I wonder if you've got any thoughts brewing in there yet, and if not, then that's cool. Unmute yourself and chime in any time, but that to me seems like a really interesting exploration. Do we need the details of their background, or do we need to be open to their character and worldview, and is there a difference?  Leslie: You asked if I had any thoughts or reactions to this discussion. Sure. I do, and it falls into probably terms that might be a little less complicated, concepts that are a little more simple. If I'm the horse, I have one concern about a person. I'm going to give this to you from my perception of the horse's perspective. We're going to run into horses, whether they're mustangs or a group of foals that are six months old and younger. Let's not forget that, at least in this country, a tremendous number of foals are being raced in stalls, they don't even have the chance to-show horses are being raced in stalls. Raced horses are, much to my absolute disgust and surprise, shock and horror, being raced in stalls now as foals.  I did not know this until about six months ago, and I'm just disappointed beyond measure to learn how many people are willing to do this to a horse, to get them started and under saddle as a long yearling, as a coming two-year-old, 18 months old, and pounding down the track with shoes on. All of that stuff is just, I’m not going to judge it. I'm just going to say it doesn't turn me on in the least, and it doesn't impress me about people who will make these decisions for whatever their motives are. And I'm sure their motives are many, not just money.  Many. Culture, family, need work, four kids at home, all you know is horses. It goes on. It doesn't matter. My point is, whether it's a colt race like that, or a mustang that the BLM will sell you now for $25, not $125, or something you picked up at the neighbors because they needed a place to put their horses. It doesn't matter. Any age, any breed, any discipline. It really doesn't matter. Any horse is going to want to know one thing and one thing only when it gets down to survival. I'm not now talking about, “Oh, where's the cookie? Where's the treat?” From a horse's perspective in the final analysis, they want to know one thing. And I do believe this, if you want to get along with the horse and you want your investment of that time to be as enjoyable, unconfronted, low risk to both, pleasurable, you need to know where you want the feet. In what sequence, at what speed, and when. That sounds very simple, but the horse who's pulling a carriage or running a race or cutting a cow or taking Grandma down to the mailbox, that horse only needs to know, “Are you sure where you want my feet, at what speed, in what sequence, and when?” When we start getting more complicated than that, it's the same thing I feel when I'm in an airport (and I'm in way too many of

them), or a subway or a bus (and I'm in way too many of those a year.) I want to make sure that the people around me know where my feet are, and I want to make sure that I know where their feet are. I don't weigh very much, and I'm not very tall, and if the bus is careening around a corner or we have other types of things. I've been in one or two airport stampedes, one actually in Heathrow when they had to clear the airport alarm, and the flight attendants from 50 airlines were whipping off their high heels and slamming down the thing in their stocking feet, going out in the street. It was a stampede. It's the only human stampede I've really ever been in, and it was frightening. But I want to make sure I know where to put my feet. I want to make sure that they know where they're putting their feet, and I don't think it's any different for a horse.  And I think when we start getting more intellectual, more academic, we start falling into judgment patterns about whether that horse was fairly treated. It hardly matters whether he's fairly treated if he's out of control. It doesn't matter. His history doesn't matter. The history of anybody in front of you doesn't matter unless you need to engage with them at a level where you are not in charge of your own feet, quite frankly. I think if we're really talking about the flight or fight potential for every flight animal, whether we're talking sheep, goats, elk, zebras, horses, any of it, the most important thing for them is to be able to move, or to decide not to move, to fight or decide not to fight. Those decisions have everything to do with the kind of awareness that the people in their backgrounds have had about their ability to function in our world with us.  Horses have been domesticated in one fashion or another for thousands of years, and you can see in any of the history books, any of the real history books that are out there, and I don't mean written-to-be-history books, but books that were contemporary in the 1700s and 1800s. For example, when our American agriculture was populated by people, who were, against their will, forced into service of many descriptions, not just Black, there were plenty of Irish,  Germans, Italians and plenty of Swedes that were the equivalent. I don't mean in some of the same ways, but absolutely, absolutely suffering. And suffering in some similar ways, some dissimilar ways, and there are people suffering today.  But when it came to pre-industrial conditions, anybody who had anything to do with a local or regional economy, understood about horses. And kids were handling horses, kids were plowing fields. It wasn't a matter of, “Do I kick them on the right or do I kick them on the left?” It wasn't a matter of how big is this bit, it was a matter of, “Does the horse know where I want his feet?” And it was in that way a lot simpler. We were in much simpler times.  The aggrandizement of the human ego motivates many people, even people who are completely unqualified to even halfway get out of a chair on their own feet, frankly. People buy their way in. People beg and borrow and steal their way in. They do things to horses that are unthinkable to have things go the way they want in a show ring, or what have you, or in a sale barn. So what we are really doing now is asking, in my opinion, we are asking the horse to fit into a very unnatural culture. And involve themselves with mostly a lifetime in a 24-hour period of captivity. And very sudden moments, sudden and unexpected moments of high demand on their physical and mental capacities, and then go back in your box. I think that to deny that is to not be aware of enough things that are affecting horses and to support it actively is to maybe not understand the horse well enough to understand the damage we do along those lines.  And I think when we are using horses in this way, we understand that there's a high price to them physically, emotionally and mentally, a high risk to others to have these kinds of horses passed along without a sufficient introduction so that the horse isn't penalized for having your mark on him. As Matthias said, what you get is the mark of the last person who was there. So you really need to learn how to read a horse. These are the things on my mind. Kerri: Yeah, thank you. Suzi:  I think that speaks to people too.  We have horses that come here and people that come here who have had the people in their lives put their feet exactly where they shouldn't. And the big question we have here a lot, and that I get faced with a lot, is how important is your history? And what I think a lot of here is you don't have to be tomorrow what you are today. In other words, we have the opportunity to meet a human or an animal where they're at and watch where our feet are, right? So Leslie, that totally brings me to how self-aware are you? And how quiet can you be and how receptive can you be in your listening to the subtle cues that a human or an animal are giving you to meet them where they're at. And it doesn't mean that they need to always stay there right? I totally, Matthias, the cob thing I get, the drafty thing I get. And just like people, we may have had generational training. Generations and generations of being made into who we are, say, as a person and our behavior or our reactions to things. But we don't need to be that forever. And by no means do we need to. And the unfortunate thing is that people will step out of line constantly with their kind of ulterior motive. But if we can quiet ourselves enough to meet someone where they're at, and let them develop and become who they're going to become, who they truly want to become, because the breed thing I totally get, and I'm never going to ask a cob to be an endurance horse, or I'll never ask an Arab to pull a gypsy wagon. I mean, we're generationally wired to be who we are. But isn't it great to be able to stop and ask, “Who do you want to be?” And let that tiny little glow start to glow bigger

and bigger and bigger by the room that we give them in this world, and our interactions with them, both people and animals. And I just want to go off that topic a little bit. When I was being trained in wildlife work, a big part of our job is to sit and watch animals having the most natural behavior they can and marking, writing that down, logging that, tracking that. And so the reality is you get really good at being really quiet and not putting a story together for these animals. We have to develop the talent of being able to say, “Did that ear flick just the slightest little bit in that squirrel? Well, I am over its threshold. So I'm going to step back so I can observe this squirrel being exactly who the squirrel is in the context of its environment, its habitat, its family group.” And then, am I going to put a story to that squirrel or am I going to just look at what they are right now? Am I just going to be aware of who they are, and observe properly at the outset, so I know properly where I can relate to this squirrel? I mean, that sounds silly to talk about a squirrel, but it's just such an interesting thing and I see that all the time in the equine-assisted therapy. All kinds of stuff where people start to throw a story together. And when we get rescue animals in here, everybody wants to know the story. And some of the stories are pretty horrid. And Kerri can tell you, it's been a long haul for me to be like, “It's not my story to tell, who are they to you right now in this space?” And we're not always our story.  Little Agnes, the mule is very much her story, a very small fraction of the time. She had a lot of trauma in her life, but the greater, 99% of the time, her story is entirely different in who she is right now in space. And I really love that. I hate to pin an opinion on someone according to their past. Does that make sense?  Kathy: Yeah. I think there's three words that have come up quite often through this conversation and it's judgment and awareness. Because with the story we judge, “Oh, that horse has had a bad time. Therefore he must be _ ,” and it may be the complete opposite. And it's hard because we're conditioned by that. We're taught that. This is how we can operate in this life: we have this information and therefore we can judge our next step. And it's a hard task to actually step back and go, “Okay, I am just going to accept you as you are in this moment?” And I found this with people, in that somebody might tell a story about somebody, and maybe the behavior of this person hasn't been wonderful, but I will always take someone at face value. And I think Suzi, did you just say that about the face value of the animal that's there?  Suzi: Yeah Kathy: That's what it is. And that's where I'll go with people, that even though I might've heard lots of stories about what's gone on, if they haven't done anything to me, I'm not getting involved. It's nothing because all of it can be hearsay and all of it can be from the perspective of the storyteller, as well. And you don't know if you weren't there, don't get involved. That's sort of my modus operandi because I just don't know.  So we're looking at how the story of the horse and the people, how the horse isn't the only thing, how it evolves out. And for me, the horses teach us awareness because if we truly go quiet with them, our awareness will be just what you were saying about - does the squirrel flick an ear? - and not make a human story up about that. But also it's a case of, because we're with the horse, it can heighten our awareness, not only in the observation, feeling and listening, but also the non-judgment. So when you step in, as they do something, you go, “Oh, look, that's ___”, and then you go, “Actually, no it's not. No, it's not.” And I'll go slightly off-piece here, but I always think this is a classic example of how we make stories up.  We have around where I live, a lot of old mine shafts, because it was a big lead mining area. And over the tens of decades, they have been used for tipping things. People have chucked cars down them, furniture, dead animals, you name it. And I always laugh because I think, well, maybe in 300 years, someone's going to excavate that and they'll go, “Oh my God, they buried their animals with white goods and cars to get to the next life.” And it just, it always tickles me that the stories that are made up when artifacts are dug up. And I'm not going to diss them because I don't know, but I always think we don't actually know.  So for me, the horse being with horses and what Leslie was saying about, yeah, that fundamentally, where are their feet going? That's what they need to know because that's their escape or their stay. And if we can stand with no judgment next to them, but with awareness, that's what they can help teach us.  Kerri: There is a very real reason that every culture in humanity perpetuates itself through myth and story. Humans are relational, we're relational creatures and as scientific as we might want to be, it's just true that we're always looking for how we relate to different experiences, different beings, different creations. And what I'm hearing in all of this as well is a wisdom in becoming aware. Because we are going to use stories, we are going to make up stories. It's why we love storytelling. And we can learn in multiple dimensions through a story what a bullet list could never convey.  But the question might come down to being really aware of where, what, where is this story produced from? Is it produced from a place of fear and judgment? Or is it produced from a place of an illuminating heart? Are we simply looking, or are we creating a story to illuminate what is here in front of us? Or are we creating a story to perpetuate an agenda or an opinion? I use opinion and judgment interchangeably, because judgment and discernment are two different things. So when people want to convey an agenda, or have influence on the minds and hearts of

others to pull them in a certain direction, then I would say those are the stories created from judgment or opinion of the past or of a potential future. But when we create stories from a heart to illuminate wisdom, to illuminate clarity, to create space for true relationship, then that to me is really truly coming from a place of the heart. And where we can actually facilitate the self-empowerment and the learning of others without telling them what to learn. It's giving them space to see who's in front of them and learn about themselves rather than telling them, “This is who's in front of you, and this is how you're going to look at it.” And I think this is perhaps the best use of story and awareness. It’s illuminating. Creating the space of self-illumination. Leslie: Two things come to mind now. I'm reviewing everyone's comments so far that I've heard, so far keeping track of them as well as I can. There are two things that come to mind, and it's the importance of leaving the horse in the horse. And very often what a horse really is, and what a person can really appreciate about who that horse really is, are two very different things. We talk about wild horses or undomesticated horses. There are not a whole lot of people that are really comfortable around that group. Particularly if you don't have a stout sense and a good way of handling them, or they learn to pull away or you can't tie them. I understood what Matthias was talking about, I believe, when he said “It's nice to be able to ride a wild horse without equipment,” but there are not too many people who are going to do that.  And so because of that, that would be more the exception than the rule. And then the stories that are created around the horses that people have tried to do that with, and failed - and there are many of them. I know some of these horses. They are occasionally brought to me. “What do we do with this one?” I'm not trying to sound like I'm some fancy trainer of any kind, but I do get a lot of horses that are going to go to a place that's maybe a lot worse, soon. And so I wouldn't say that I'm the last stop necessarily, but I certainly have had my share in the last 10 years of horses that people had given up on. And I mean other trainers. I mean, that is a fact. I do get a great deal of referrals from other trainers from time to time.  And most of them are the product of people who don't, and I mean trainers and well-intentioned first timers, and old-timers, and every other kind of person who's involved, I can't really generalize too much. But I would just say that it is across the board, that in my view, it comes down to self-esteem, human self-esteem and human lack of discipline. If you don't think before you speak, you're probably not going to think before you act. And certainly, if you don't think before you speak and act, you're not going to think before you judge a horse, another person, another action, pigeonhole something with a title and dispense with it. This

is where the smallness of our natures comes in. And it comes from, I think, a weakness, a categoric weakness: suppression of curiosity. What would happen if I let that person be who they are? What would happen if I didn't need to train this horse in 60 days? What would happen if I turned this horse out and spent money to educate myself until I learned how to read a horse as he is and read him well. Instead of making him who I need him to be or try to get him to fit an owner that isn't going to be fittable. Or any of these other configurations that those of us in the horse business struggle to try to help other people understand, is a dead end.  And the dead end for horses is in many, many ways, is also a dead end for us. Every time a human being is either hurt by a horse or fails to properly educate a horse or has to lie and get a vet or an insurance person to cover up a lot of errors or mask things with drugs and half-truths or complete lies, which is the name of the game today, I'm sorry to say, it's not easy to pilot your way through first-time horse owning or even taking responsibility for recommending horses anymore.  It's very, very, very tricky, high-liability, political financial stuff going on. And anybody who's not aware of that just isn't aware of it. I'm very aware of it, and I think many of you also are. But the thing that is bothering about it is where do you stand in your own shoes about ethics? Where do you take responsibility for passing on third-hand information about a horse? Labeling a horse, he's this, he's that? When you speak this way, it carries energy. When you speak ill of another person, it carries energy. Whether it's first-hand information and true, third-hand information and true, or totally made up because you're small-headed and anxious or jealous or irritated or immature or whatever other motivation you might have.  And we all have, at least I think at some point in our lives, brushed up against this type of shallow living and destructive interaction for thoughtless reasons that make us feel momentarily more powerful, more likable, more popular, more inclusive, more included in a group that we want to be in, or whatever else. I'm speaking for myself. Thank God this wasn't last year. But what I'm saying is, by the time you've lived a few decades and by the time you've been booted around a while, you start to realize that you reap what you sow. And to not be aware of the effect of your mouth on the people around you, the people that you're referring to, is to not have learned that. And it's very, very important to learn it well. I believe it's really important to be careful. The people around you are resources. You say, “Well, I don't know them. I've lived on this street for 30 years. I don't know how people here are.” That's a choice. But if you're down in some kind of a wreck or you're in some sort of a crisis, and all you've got is 35 strangers to sort something out with, that might be the first time you realize

that you need people and you need strangers. I'm not talking about who you're fortunate enough to meet if you have to call 911 or if somebody smashes your car and you get a nice officer to help you out. I'm not talking about that sort of good luck. I'm talking about real resourcefulness and real inner reserves, with a strong, strong relationship to the core values that you hold in yourself.  And what I've told students of mine and what I've done myself, take a piece of paper and draw a line right down the middle. And put on the top of it the things that you like about yourself, the things that you don't like about yourself.  Under the things you like about yourself, things you love about yourself, and the things that you detest about yourself. And to have a good hard look at that piece of paper is the beginning of being accountable to your fellow man and woman and your animals. Ultimately to yourself. That's about all I have.  Kerri: Leslie, thank you. I just can feel your heart behind everything you say, so thank you. We have just about 10 minutes left together on this conversation anyway, and I just wanted to open the space for Amelia if you had anything to sprinkle in. And then I would love to circle back to Matthias for any closing thoughts.  Amelia: You said a lot of things, Leslie, I think it's a different perspective than what we're all seemingly kind of talking about awareness and opening people up and having these extraordinary experiences. And yours are also extraordinary experiences. But I think that the word that hit me was, sort of, dead end. And I think in a way, we're all working at the dead end. I'm talking about this collective idea that we're looking at horses in a new way. We're not racetrack owners. I think that there's a burgeoning community that is looking at these different things. And we're kind of, in some ways, I think, starting at the dead end, right? And then finding a new opening, a new version.  And I can't help but think that we have to make stories as humans. We have to. It's the way we understand things. It's the way we categorize things. It's the way we make sense in our brain. And that's okay. But the story can change. I can change my story. I can make that list, and I can say, “Wow, I don't have a lot of friends. Let me think of what I can do. How can I motivate myself?” Or it's like, it was just kind of funny to hear that word. And I was so like, wait, dead end. Hold on. Right? Suzi: Amelia, can I just pop in for one second? Because I think you totally nailed it with that. When does the best growth happen? And that's when you feel like you've exhausted everything else. You are at your dead end. And then you have to get creative. And that's awesome. I love it. I mean, there's really no dead end in the world. Maybe that's the end point of it, isn't it? We think we're there. We think we've exhausted everything else. And then this little crack in the wall opens up and you're like, “Ah, I haven't looked there yet.”

Kerri: I know for myself, I have needed and I absolutely cherish every rock bottom I've hit in my life. I wouldn't be where I am without my rock bottoms. And believe me, there were times when I was trying to dig down into the bottom like, “No, I'm sure I can dig through this bedrock and get lower.” And ultimately, Amelia, I really appreciate what you said as well, that when it does appear that we've hit a dead end, there's always a place for new creativity.   And I also want to acknowledge with Leslie, the way that I was understanding what you were saying about the dead end, is not that all of humanity is at a dead end necessarily, that some people end up there. And it just makes me come back around to acknowledging everybody is unique and everybody's awareness is unique. And like we had said earlier, horses really help us become aware, if we're willing. It comes down to willingness.  And for most of us, I think horses are a very big facet of our lives. But it's true that they are not the only facet of our lives. You know, we have human relationships, like Matthias mentioned, the relationship between a man and a woman is very catalytic when we're really willing to be really curious about what a relationship really is without losing ourselves.  To me, the greatest adventure ever is staying curious about what I have to contribute to a relationship, and then getting clear about what I actually am contributing to the relationship. And am I willing to see things as they are and stay open to what else might be there? But we're down to about five minutes. Matthias, is there anything you'd like to close or circle back around to?  Matthias: Well, I just want to say that it was very interesting talking to you guys. I think you can talk about these kinds of subjects for hours. The question sometimes is just like, how can we put them in practice? And that's another story. I think, for instance, these days a lot of people start doing meditation, and they do yoga, and we do a lot of things to really connect with ourselves to improve the relationship with the horse. But let us be really honest, if yoga and meditation would be such a really good tool, then there would already be thousands of enlightened people all over the world, which is not really the case. It's not really the case, if you're honest. I think meditation and yoga can be very helpful to help you really find your way and stuff.  But I do think one of the biggest problems we have in daily life today is because we are too afraid. Fear is one of the biggest obstacles we have to overcome. I always try to say to people, when you connect with horses or with yourself, one of the easiest things is just to confront your fears. Because at the same time, it's very simple, everybody knows their fears. At the same time, it's very difficult, because it's difficult to conquer them, because obviously it's a fear. But if you're able to really find your strength to conquer those fears, inside you will feel ten times calmer, more connected with yourself, and it's going to be a huge tool to really develop in different directions. These days a lot of people, we talk, we talk, we talk, which can be very good, because it can give insights but if you don't put them in practice, it's kind of difficult. So that's the good thing. I know now people listen at home, probably nice, cozy with a cup of tea and a blanket and a sofa but it's about leaving your comfort zone. That's one of the most difficult things. And how do you leave your comfort zone? It’s by facing your fears. To give one little example about me, for instance, I have had a big fear in the past of swimming in a lake or in the ocean, thinking something is going to grab me. How do you solve this? You see ten people swimming and just having fun in front of you, so I mean, the only way to really confront that fear is to jump in the ocean or in the lake. And probably the first two minutes, five minutes, you really think you're going to die. It's going to be a monster. It's going to pull you down. It's going to be dangerous and it's going to be complete chaos. But after two or five minutes, you know, stress is really exhausting, so the body is going to become a little bit calmer. The mind is going to calm down.  And then I'll say after five, seven minutes, it becomes better. Ten minutes becomes better. And after 30 minutes, you really feel like all the tension is just leaving. And then you really start enjoying it. You start feeling the water. You start feeling the environment around you. Now, say after an hour, you get out of the water, if you're able to swim for one hour, [group chuckling] you get out of the water and then you will feel the relief. It's huge. It's like you're reborn in many ways. That's just one fear, like this, obviously, most people have multiple ones. But can you imagine the impact it has if you live life without fear? It's huge. Kerri: Or just with self-empowerment, knowing like, “Oh, I just saw another fear, let's go do it!” And knowing the part of yourself that can step into it at any time, just because of who you are.  Matthias: And the problem is that sometimes we don't know what's behind the fear. So why would you confront them? Why would you confront something if you don't know what's behind it? Fear is a comfort zone. It's a feeling, so why would you go somewhere else? It's a big risk. So that's the biggest step, like always, is taking the first step. It's always difficult. But once you conquer one fear, start with a small one, you will feel the relief. You will feel the change. And it's going to give you motivation to conquer a bigger fear. And like this, you keep going till you just feel OK. And when the fears are solved, then you can go to another chapter. That's part of another conversation. Kerri: Oh, my goodness. Thank you, everybody. This was rich and vast. Thank you for sharing your presence, your words and your wisdom. And it's just such an honor to be among you guys. I will look forward to our next chapter and look forward to being in touch in between our conversations. Thank you all so much.