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Hi, I'm Christina. I'm from Prague. Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada. Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria. Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris. Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York. Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with Carbon Conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world. In our conversations, we share ideas. Perspectives, questions, and things we can actually do to make a difference. So don't be shy and join our Carbon Sessions because it's not too late. Hi, I am Ji. Hi, I'm Jen. Hi, I'm Christina. Hi, I'm Brian. And hi, I'm leaky and welcome to Carbon Sessions. And today we all joined by Death North Cross and Leah Rami death and Leah co-wrote a beautiful book called Discovering the Spiritual Wisdom of Trees. And if you are like me, you probably already love trees. And as we're recording today, it's end of April and it's springtime and trees are burgeoning and uh, and wearing this gorgeous new leaves everywhere. And I just can't help modeling of these beautiful trees. But today we are talking about a deeper aspect of trees, not only about how beautiful they are, but how we can connect with trees and what they can teach us. Right. And so welcome Beth and Leah. Thank you. We're happy to be here. Okay. First question, and um, this question is addressed to both of you. Do you remember a moment in your life that you realize that trees are more than beautiful and gorgeous to look at, that we can connect with trees at a deeper level? So what was the aha moment of this discovery, if any? Well, I think I knew that from a very young age. Um, so that, you know, as I was a, as I was a child, I. I was really enamored with a cottonwood tree that was outside my bedroom window that would sing to me at night and provided such shade and such incredible beauty. And I know now that a lot of people don't like cottonwood trees, that they think their weeds and they, uh, shed their cotton all over. But from my perspective, they were absolutely both beautiful and they were kind of a friend really, that I could talk to. I will say then I forgot that, you know, that got layered over as I left home, as I went into the world and was, uh, busy with quote, earning a living and trying to, uh, raise a family and do all those things that most of us, I think, feel is expected of us. And I lost a sense of that connection. But there was always some way in which, whenever I had vacation or spare time, it was always this longing to get back to the trees. What about you Beth? Uh, thank you. Thank you for the question. I was trying to go inside my memory banks. I think, uh, as a child the trees were play things to me. They were things to climb and get on top of and, uh, throw walnuts at my little sister and annoy her and things like that. It was a really a playful element of nature. I, for a long time I worked in the environmental community and on Capitol Hill here in our senate on nature issues and forestry issues. But I don't think it was until I was in seminary and theological school and maybe I. Jen notes that your theology is sort of blown up and then you try to put it back together again. That I started merging my understanding of both my spiritual life and my ecological life. It was somewhere in there that as I was sort of casting about at my own sense of theology and spirituality, that I looked up and saw the trees very differently in, in all other elements of the natural world, and saw them, uh, as Leah so beautifully put in the book, imprinted with the Divine. And I think that was a, I don't think there was a single moment, but a series of moments where I just began to, to look and see and, and know trees differently. That's beautiful. So, you know, Beth, a question for you, and, and a follow up to that question is sort of like your theology. You know, getting exploded during seminary and then coming back to and coalescing. Do you feel like during that process, was there some moment where you sort of like felt that some of the things in the teachings that were coming to you through traditional seminary learnings, you were like weaving some thoughts from your respective on the natural world into those and like making them your own. Are there any stories about sort of that moment where you wove some of those things into what was traditional seminary teachings? Mm-hmm. Well, what I began to notice, and maybe Jen had this experience also, is that the Bible is very much, uh, the Green Book. You might have heard there's this thing called the Green Bible. I, I don't really care for it because the whole book seems to be screaming. Um, earth, what the Bible might call creation. So I think it was a series of stories and scriptures that really took on new meaning because of my background in ecology and forestry. Mm-hmm. There's one in particular, since you asked, uh, I remember reading the story of Noah and the Arc, and of course it's very familiar, known to most children who go through Sunday school anyway and the two by two and on the Arc, and Noah puts the, and so forth and so on. But after the arc, you know, rolls around in the water where some time God makes a covenant in this story. Um, what I realized when I read it, I couldn't believe I had missed it before, that God doesn't make a covenant just with Noah, but with every living thing. And in Genesis, God repeats that in case. Case we know, sort of slaps us across the base, if you will, uh, verbally and says, Hey, if you don't get this, let me tell you again, this covenant is with every living thing. And that really just broke open my understanding of, of the biblical imperative and my, my theological stance. Mm-hmm. It really wasn't, it wasn't about us that we were an important but just a, an element of, of the biblical story. Yeah. Can, can I ask a follow up on that? I know we've got some, uh, a lot of other questions here. I'm curious. There's that, that construct of thought of sort of like, we're a, a piece in
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the puzzle and we're just sort of a, a, you know, one of the ingredients and then there's also this like strong sense and obligation of stewardship, of being responsive, having our own responsibility and authority and, and I think sometimes stewardship, you know. Can be interpreted to have like authority to it as opposed to responsibility. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts on sort of like the nuances inside stewardship as it relates to like being a piece of the larger puzzle. You know, the, the section in Genesis about stewardship and dominion, it's given us all sorts of trouble. Um, I think that stewardship can in fact be thought of paternalistic, and I think there's danger in that. I think that's what you're alluding to. Mm-hmm. But I, I hearken back, you know, on that whole difficult section of dominion and stewardship and subduing and all of that, which we can talk about for, for hours and hours. It is all proceeded in that account, you know, the two creation accounts in the Bible, first and foremost by that six day account. And, you know, we don't come along until well into that story. Day after day after day, God says. It's good, it's good. Each piece, each element of, of earthly creation is good in and of itself. So any stewardship responsibilities that we have always are in the context of all of this goodness of all. Mm-hmm. The value of each and every element that is created in that story. Yeah. So that helps me understand, again, just sort of, I'm not sure, not sure how I missed that before or how collectively we missed that. It's all there in the story. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. I'm next, and of course, I have too many questions. I've been doing a lot of reading and work around awe and finding the elements of awe and delight. As an antidote to what's happening in the world right now. And I was completely delighted when I read the reference to the Story of the Acorn in one of my most favorite books from Cynthia Burau, the Wisdom Way of Knowing. And I went, I know that story. I love that story. And the story about the Acorn, you know, being this little tiny thing that has to be beaten up and cracked open and broken before it can grow into a huge oak tree. And just thinking ab about that idea of, of needing to be beaten up a little bit and cracked open to be able to grow into something that at first people see this little thing and don't think anything of it, but with love and nurturing, you can grow. And I just wonder if that threads through or where the idea to include that came from. Well, I think you know that we were teaching a course on the spiritual wisdom of trees that Beth and I developed, I guess five years ago now, and it's a video series, so I'm not exactly sure. I think I blame Beth for it, but I think she has, like you, Jen, always loved that story and she really began telling that story in the very first class that we. Taught in our series. So it made its way into the book, and I got to write that chapter, and I
tell it very lightly in this chapter because it's a bigger part of how Cynthia presents it. But I think it's such a great story to weave through the book because it reminds us that there is this very similar process that we have of being endowed with this kind of true essence of who we are. And we are holding up this acorn who really can only ever become who it was meant to be, which is this oak tree. So there's that, that shows up again and again in the story. But you're right, there's a way in which we have to push at the edges of who we are. We have to go to the edge and then make it a little more, a little more challenging even to break through. To allow ourselves to become fully who we are. In that amazing story of our soul and our heart cracking open, this is, um, what Thomas Merton refers to, I think, as Hidden wholeness. And so to remember that that hidden wholeness is within us is really important. I'm also hearing you, Jen, point out that sometimes being sort of buffeted by what is going on around us can be an invitation to listen for what is within, and maybe it can help us focus less only on this idea of breaking 'cause. Clearly it costs us something to break open. Thank you. Beautiful. Beth, do you have anything to only that, that story? I also love for the same reason you do Jen from Cynthia's work. This comes up a lot in our conversations with people who have either read the book or taken the class, and I just wanted to say that we're not inviting people to beat themselves up in order to become more grounded, but that the world does a pretty good job of that. And I think it's particularly interesting for these times. You know, we, we wrote the book, I think we finished it over a year ago now. We couldn't have imagined what the world would look like, and yet the messages we think are quite pertinent for these times. That there are so many who are being cracked open and dirtied and Sully. From a variety of different sources. And so the promise of the acorn is that, not that we invite those times and we, we want people to do that to us, but rather that there is something to be learned and experienced and deepened in us through these times. And I think that's an important message for today that, um, that's really incredible. First, I wanna say that the work that you both have done here is incredible. And I'm spelling that in caps when I say incredible, because it's not every day you come across a book that tells you that, hey, there's this dimension to trees and you should pay attention to that. And so it's, it's super interesting. I think one of the things that, just listening to your stories, you both say that the trees have spoken to you, right? You've, um. You've been able to interact with the trees and for a lot of people that, I mean, and there's stories, you know, you've told some of the stories behind that. Some of that is in your book as well. And there are people wondering, well I'm wondering, right, like I want the trees to
speak to me as well and you know, what do you think are like daily practices and I guess the state of mind to be in, to be able to get to that singularity, that singularity point with the trees. Wanna start that one? Beth? You want me to Go ahead, Leah? Um, I love this question, so let me start and then Beth can embellish if she wants to. I think it's such a great question and I appreciate you asking it. So first of all, I think we have to remember that Therese are not going to speak to us in the way that we speak to each other. So to expect something to come to us in, uh, proper English or whatever our language is, is, uh, probably not going to be very helpful. But we can think that there are ways that other beings beyond the human world communicate all the time with each other. There are ways they interact. I would go so far as to say there are ways that they are in communion with each other, and that's the invitation for us is to get out of our heads. And how would we begin? Um, we're fond of telling people to breathe with a tree because we are breathing with the trees. So to think about that intentionally, but then let the thinking go and just let the action happen to fully open our senses so that we're touching the tree, we're taking in that scent of pine. We're closing our eyes and listening to the wind and the branches. And yes, some trees we actually taste because they are providing food for us. So to go to the census. And then it's also important to remember that trees move at a much slower pace than we do. So we can't go out and take our fast-paced life to a tree and say, I'm here to talk to you, speak to me now. And I think, you know, we can say trees, we can say this for any element of the living world around us, that that rhythm of the living world. Is a rhythm that humans used to know. But we've layered that over with a whole lot of fast-paced life and have forgotten how to live in the rhythm of seasons, in the rhythm of growth, in the rhythm of years. So there's the slowing down and this patience that needs to be cultivated and a repetition to, uh, listen to what the trees want to be telling us. And a willingness, willingness to accept it in a language, not our own. You wanna embellish anything on that, Beth? Well, you covered that so beautifully. I would just say that you'll notice that there's a practice at the end of each chapter of our book, and that's purposeful because we wanted to invite people not just to be. Thinking about these things, but really to be experiencing them. And the first thing we ask people to do is to find or be found by a teacher tree. And as silly as that might seem, to some, it's really become a very important and profound experience from the people with whom we've discussed this and taught and so forth. And just see what that teacher tree who chose you, is saying to you. And again, and we encourage our participants not to force this, but just to let it, as Leah said, through our senses, there've been so
many trees. I think, and I mentioned one in the book that have been comforting to me, who've taught me things about adapting and accepting and resilience and so forth. Uh, if we open our. It open our hearts, and we've tried to provide these exercises to help one do that. That's really great. But before you go, Beth, I, I want you to talk a little bit more about the tree that was teaching you about things. Right? Can you share a moment or an example or a specific experience? Well, there've been so many. I, I think I'll, I'll share one that we actually put in the book and there was a, a tree that has been meaningful to me and others I took down to, to meet her. And it's a big old tulip poplar tree. And when I first encountered it, I thought it must most certainly be dead. It had a huge scoop out of it. All of its heart wound was gone, uh, from a lightning strike I assumed. But when I looked up, I saw those sort of telltale, tulip shaped leaves. Sort of shimmering the top. And I have to admit, I've spent a lot of time with her in some difficult moments in the last few years. And first of all, I'm comforted by her because you can get inside her trunk and sort of feel held by her. But also this sense that despite this terrible injury, she continued to survive and not only survive, but thrive. And I looked up and I saw that she was providing seeds to birds way, way high in her branches. And so even in her broken stage, she could give back to the forest community. And so I realized in some of the brokenness that I had recently experienced, that I too would survive and, and perhaps get to a point where I too could give back to others again. Uh, and so it's those kinds of experiences over and over again. And in the book I share an experience of a, a group that I brought down there as a leader, a grief group who felt similarly comforted by this wonderful teacher tree. That's just beautiful. I mean, anyone hearing you talk about trees now, it's is definitely falling in love with trees. Yeah, that's our hope. Hm. Yeah. Uh, you know, Liz, a question I had, and you sort of touched into it, is, you know, for our audience who hasn't yet read your book, can you enumerate and talk a little bit about some of the, the benefits of some of the practices that you speak to, and this, the methodologies you speak to in the book. Some of like the tangible benefits that that may be, you know, you know, Beth, you were sort of talking about comfort and sort of being able to have this sort of support network that's accessible to you just, I don't know how far this is from your home, but just outside your door somewhere. Right. Or, um, health benefits or community connectivity, some of the, you know, enumerating, some of the things that you've seen come out of these practices that you speak about. Well, um, so Beth has clearly named comfort as one, but she was also, I think Beth, you were pointing to resilience, this capacity for persisting. That you see. And I think people recognize that there is more of a capacity that we have for resilience than perhaps we know. Sometimes it feels hard and we feel like we want to stop, and yet there is within each of us this kind of strength that trees remind us we have. I think there's also, um, this sense of blending or capitalizing, that's not really the word I wanna use, uh, drawing on both light and dark. And we can think that darkness is something we should avoid, something we should try to get out of. And clearly, clearly trees reach for the light. You can see all the ways that they bend and stretch and curve and reach for the light. And still they know the power of darkness. And they rest at night and droop their leaves. They know the power of winter when they are holding the little buds on their branches and keeping them safe by not giving them water so they freeze. I mean, they, they know that there is that time that's so important. And of course, so much of a life of a tree happens underground in the darkness. And my favorite that I have to talk about all the time is the capacity for collaboration and connection. Because Therese are such collaborators and you don't ever wanna start me on stories of Therese collaborating because they're amazing. They are amazing. Please do In the ways, well, we'll just mention the coast redwoods. I mention that one all the time because it's one of my favorite. But we could talk about beach trees or pines. Coast redwoods live within 50 miles of the coast on the California, Washington, Oregon, uh, coast. They draw moisture from the fog. So that's a favorite place for them to live. But of course that means they're subject to the storms that come in off the Pacific. What would you think they would do if they wanted to maintain their capacity for being the equivalent of 30 stories tall and be. Able to withstand these incredible storms. I would expect them to have a huge, deep, deep taproot. They don't, but they do have an extensive root system. It's not deep, but it's connected to each other, and so these trees are so interwoven. It is as if they are holding hands with each other. And if that's not a story for our times, I don't know what it is. Over and over and over again, trees tell us that we cannot do this alone. That is not their wisdom. They remind us that it takes a forest to maintain healthy trees and they give away their nutrients to the weakest among them to the oldest and the youngest. Their stories of. Trees over and over again who thrive because they are in collaboration. So it is not just a story of competition, as we're often told, we're often told as if the natural world is all about, um, outcompeting. Yes. A tooth and claw. Yeah. Red and tooth and claw in tenons words. Right. If I can jump in on that, Leah. I grew up in Oregon near the coast, and, and we actually, uh, this last year I bought a piece of property that's right on a 500 foot bluff looking out over the ocean and it, it's a big, it's got it's timber property. And
it has a couple of those. They're dug fur, not redwood, but they are 250 foot plus tall trees. These massive trees. I mean, the base is the size of a car and they're so impressive. And one of the things that I just researched and was learning about was in addition to, I don't know if how their roots work, but it's also that they, they all act as partial buffers to the winds. So they're all helping as a group sort of break the wind. It's not any one tree taking the full force and brunt of it, but they're sort of like being distributed across them as, as these huge gales are coming off the ocean. Um, and that when I was learning about this, 'cause I was looking at these trees and the winds are like pushing me over on this bluff and I was like, how are these, how are these standing up so tall? And, and that was a pretty impressive thing that speaks to this kind of sense of community and collective benefit, uh, as well that I think we can all, you know, emulate. I, I think that's beautiful. I, yes. That, that's beautiful. Really beautiful. Uh, I, I was listening to a podcast the other day and the host asks the guest, what is the greatest advice you ever received? And he said, pay attention. Mm-hmm. That was the greatest advice he ever received. And I've heard this several times, that nature is always speaking, we just have to pay attention and sort of listen. And, and that brings me to sort of like my next question because a lot of people will consider the context of our conversation today, a little spiritual, right? Um, and there are people who do not consider themselves spiritual in, you know, in many ways. And it, it might not automatically jump out to them as something that they want to practice or do or emulate. But then I remember Isaac Newton, just from an apple falling from the tree, he's able to postulate the theory of gravity and a lot of things. Are existing today because people paid attention to, to nature. We saw birds flying, so we knew to make airplanes. And there's like a lot of things in that whole space as well. So for a non-spiritual person or for someone to say, oh, I, I want to do this. Like I can do this. What, what is like a daily, and I know that you've said there are practices at the end of each chapter of your book and there are things to do every time. But if we could take one of those things, um, and I'm referring to perhaps something that when you were writing the book, you thought, oh, everybody should actually do this regardless of who you are. Right? What, what would that thing be? Well, I'll, I'll start there. I, I appreciate that question and we get some form of that. A lot people are, we have busy lives and we have been acculturated to think of nature as other, you know, divorced from our. Regular, everyday responsibilities and things that which we pay attention. And there are so many, so many aspects of our life that we are being asked to pay attention to. Our spouses, our children, so much of what's going on in the world, honestly, trees, so we of course, think there's an awful lot to learn from trees. And so I think a lot about habit. Um, read a lot about habits and how we form them, you know, and they're, we are quite capable of forming new habits, right? I mean, think of all the new habits we formed around these little phones that tether us in many ways. And so one suggestion that I make, um, to people who come to our, our programs is that when we take that first, almost all of us take some sip of something in the morning, be it tea or coffee or juice or something, is. To develop a habit of linking that exercise with just looking outside for 30 seconds and really, and, and preferably to trees for our purposes. But that just that building it into something that the habit thought leaders will tell you that if, if you bring it into something that you're already doing, that you can form a new habit. Another another thing someone told me once, um, I had preached what I thought was a pretty good sermon and she came up to me and said, well, that's all great, but you know, I've got three kids and I've got a busy job and the only time I see the natural world is by looking out my sunroof at the sky when I'm stuck in traffic on our beltway. And I stopped for a moment and I let her sort of catch up with herself and she said, oh, I can see the sky. I can always see this guy. And so that's another habit that when we, you know, punch our starters on our cars just to look up and out. So again, developing these new habits of, of paying attention may be easier than we think. Brushing teeth also is not, it's not tree related, although it might be. Um, but that act of turning on water, turning off water and being aware of the water, which I can't remember which chapter that was, six or so, so important to trees and to all of life. Just these simple things that we're doing anyway that can be brought into a habit of paying attention. I was just gonna add two things, see if I can remember. The one is just to pick up on that last point. Whether it's drinking water, eating food, breathing, air tracing back from once it came, you know, where is that water coming from? And you would say maybe that's not about trees, but it's water trees. The whole, the whole world is interconnected. It's all connected. Uh, Joanna Macy says, it's all alive, it's all connected, it's all intelligent, it's all relatives. Those are the four things that I say over and over when I'm leading retreats and to, to trace that back. The water is within us. Beth and I live about an hour apart. If the traffic is not too terrible, sometimes it could be two hours, but we're both drinking from the Potomac River. And to really recognize that, it's a pretty amazing thing because it's not just we're drinking, it is within us. Right now, it is shaping us. It's shaping ourselves and who we are or to remember the food that we are eating is a part of every cell in our body coming from those amazing plants because we
don't eat meat without there being plants. It all goes back to the plants and there are incredible capacity for photosynthesizing and our bodies are covered and in inside us is a living microbiome. This idea that we're separate is such a mistaken and sad little bit of mythology that somehow has layered us over, um, layered over our culture. So just to begin with. Anything we're touching, you're probably touching wood now, or most of us probably have something that's, that's made of wood within our touch so that you, you brought the word awareness up and so that is part of the awareness, just saying where did this come from? That's beautiful. Um, it's, it's, um, it's super interesting, um, paying attention. You, you guys have beautifully explained it, so thank you. Leah. You brought up the sort of like the microbiome and touched into a little bit of this, like all this interconnectivity and we're not a solitary isolated vessel outside everything else, et cetera. Maybe talk a little bit about that and some of the. You know, things you've touched on this in your book of that is some of the kinds of learnings that can come from trees and, and the moments of being with trees is like, even the tree itself is not this one singular thing that is its own isolated, perfectly self-contained vessel and, and couldn't live that way if it were right. Mm-hmm. In the same way we come live that way. If we were, um, any thoughts to share sort of like, again, drawing some of the real core messages out of the book and with our audience here? Yeah. Well, so let's put an exclamation mark on your trees. Do not live alone. And Beth writes a beautiful chapter on soil and so much incredible research done by Suzanne Ard and others about those amazing interconnected webs. I. That Nature magazine dubbed wood wide web that is operating underground. This whole network, especially of the mycelial, this fungal network that is exchanging messages, that is, um, exchanging nutrients, that is connecting hundreds of trees potentially within a forest. So a forest is not alone. If you are a hub tree or a mother tree and you are removed from that forest, the whole interconnected web is destroyed in some way. Maybe not totally, but in some way. There's devastation to that web and so that's at one level what's going on At another level, it is the interaction between the plants, the forests, and the people. So we know more now about how indigenous peoples have tended forests over the years there. It seems that it was a misconception in the United States or what has now become the United States, that Europeans came and thought these were all wild. But there was a whole set of cultivation, a whole set of relationships that was happening between the indigenous peoples who were living here and respecting the trees and caring for them as best they could, whether that was about fire, whether that was about cultivating chestnuts or whatever. Then there's the capacity for the trees as forests to shape the weather, to shape the patterns that impact areas far beyond the forest itself. So surely the trees are shaping the weather, the forest, but they're also helping to shape our weather. There's nothing that is living apart. And so one of the things that maybe I will get to Darwin here, one of the things that, uh, what do you think, Beth? Shall I, shall I go? You always do. So, um, you know, we talk about survival of the fittest, right? And make it as if that is a law of nature and therefore one we should obey. And I would say that's kind of running rampant in our society right now. Um, and I'm living here in the United States, so some of you know what I'm, what I'm speaking about that this idea that the powerful are, should be the ones in charge and the fittest should have the resources. Okay? Darwin did not write that in the first four editions of on the origin of species. It. The word was fit, survival of the fit. And Janine Bennis, who writes a lot about biomimicry, has a beautiful passage in her writing and speaking where she says, that's the invitation for us to be fit for the community, for the ecosystem in which we live. Because we are a part of an ecosystem. What do we need to do to be fit for that? And whether you think this is about spirituality or whether you think it's strong common sense is not as important to me as the fact that we might all be asking that question. How am I fit? How have I shaped myself? How am I continuing to shape myself to support this ecosystem that is supporting me in which I live, in which I breathe, where I drink? Where I eat, and not just for my own sake, but for the sake of all of the kin in that wider space. Okay. End of that sermon, Beth. Well, I would just quickly add, one of the things that I think we both learned from trees is that in the midst of all of this connectivity and collaboration and fit this, that each individual also has value and the tree has her own life and she is doing her very best to get as much of that scoop up, as much of that sunshine is as she can or as she needs. I should say that a difference between us and trees, by the way. And so each individual tree has its own, has her own value and importance in life. In the midst of this community, this invaluable community, this inextricable is a word that we use a lot connection that she has. And so I don't want that to get lost in this, that we're not suggesting that each individual isn't of value. That the trees teach us that each has value in and of herself and within the community. Yeah. If I can tag into the, um, studied a lot of evolutionary biology. So Lee, I want to go with you into the Darwin zone, um, you know, and explore the fit thing and maybe put forward a thing for you and Beth to, to comment on here. Um. You know, within that the fitness of an individual or a species or you know, is measured in fitness for the environment they're in, for the contextual situation that they're in, that that fitness is being
measured in. And I think sometimes where, you know, where I, part of what I think about, when I think about, you know, the outdoors and nature and stuff is, uh, I, I have the benefit of living, you know, a little bit north of New York City, but also spending time in New York City. And it, it is hard for certain plants to survive and thrive in the same, you know, in New York City that can survive and thrive in my yard. Right? They're two different environments and contextuals and I guess we have influence on the environment or which things are being measured for fitness, right? Like we have influence on like the situation, environment maybe is like an a too big of a term, but the situation. And that's something that we can look at as well and, and recognize that some things can succeed and grow and flourish in some environments well, but not in others. Right. And so if we now take this back to trees, you know, that we've got this classic hardiness zones and you know, that I think that's used in more than just North America, but I think it applies in Europe and and all over. Right. And, and it's these sort of like weather pattern driven standards and expectations. And that speaks to us about like, well we can know sort of what kind of tree species are fit in which hardiness zone or right. In, in what microclimate. And I'm curious if there are, you know, if you're thinking about that and the Darwinian concept of fitness, are there any lessons that you sort of, I, I don't remember seeing this in the book, but maybe it, was there any lessons or sort of wisdom around that, like finding the space for which your fit or learning lessons around where your fitness shows up. Hmm, well, we'll put that in volume two, right Leah? We'll bring Brian in. I think that we, we talk a little bit, uh, on the edges of that. We talk about the fact that we've gotten too big for our britches. And so in terms of our fit, uh, within an ecosystem, we are not, I'll be so bold as to suggest that we are not fitting well as humans within our home ecosystems now because we take too much and we take more than we need, and we take what we want instead of what we need. And so we do. Talk a little bit about that, this idea of finding your fitness. One of the lessons from the trees that we do talk about in, I think it was Jen who talked about the Acorn before, is that each acorn, it was Joseph Campbell said. Has the potential to be that oak that's inside of her. And that's goes to human fitness as well. What is our purpose? How are we to be? And that being with the trees can help us, by calming us, by deepening our experience of, of other beings can help us listen for our own purpose. I'm very tall and people always tell me that I'm like an oak. I, I'm not sure I take that a little personally, but I'm not gonna be an oak. But who am I meant to be in this beautiful ecosystem in which I live? And I do think we, we offer, some of these practices are designed to answer just that question.
Uh, Leah likes to say so beautifully. What is ours to do? Uh, and then I would suggest what is ours to be? And I think the forest informs that, and I wanted to say this earlier. I think it's so important too, as one of the lessons that, that I have had to learn over and over again from the trees is that the beautiful white oak that lives outside my window only wants to be a white oak. She's not trying to be anything other than what she was meant to be from the moment her acorn was developed. And she is good enough, she's good enough as a white oak. She's not going to a gem trying to be more fit again, that word, you know, she's not competing to see how many books she's written, you know, she's just. Trying to be the best old oak, the white oak that she was meant to be. She's not envious of the red oak 'cause the leaves are nicer over there. That's a a, a partial oak answer to your question about finding ourself and who we are meant to be in that shell that's being cracked open routinely these days. So I wanna add a bit to that if I can. And it goes back to Banja talking about attention, you know, giving attention. So I think this is a two part journey. I'm gonna say this, but it's really all one, but I'm gonna tell it as if it's two. There is that journey to understand who we are called to be and what gifts we are bringing to the world that, you know, what will we do, what's ours to do? And that journey has to be taken along with the conversation. That we need to have with the living world about what do you need from me? How do we together co-create what is being invited or maybe what's already unfolding and where are we asked to join in? And understanding that invitation held alongside with our gifts is so important. Otherwise we move it back to that eco ego-centric place of what do I wanna do? Who do I wanna be, rather than what do you need? And what gifts do I have to offer? And those journeys have to have to be all one. That just brings to mind the line from Mary Oliver's poem, what, what will you do with your one wild and precious life? Mm-hmm. Well, we're skirting all around, you know, pay attention, be astonished, tell about it too. So Mary Oliver is whether we've made her name explicit or not, she's kind of with us in this conversation. That's beautiful. I have another question. It is touching on something you just said a second ago, Liam, that struck me, and it was one of the questions I was like asking about the process of writing a book. And in this case, you know, my wife is an author and I sort of get to witness her process. In this case, you've co-written a book and, and Leah you were sort of just talking about like co-writing this story and all this kinda stuff. Mm-hmm. Can you like, share a little bit about how, how that process evolved for you two in co-writing? There's a lot of emotion in this book and a lot of like vulnerability that shows up in this book and, and really beautiful stuff, you know, and so I'm curious how that co-authoring process worked. You wanna start that one? Well, first of all, it was. A privilege. And I mean, that's so sincerely I'll, I'll get into the mechanics for just a second, but being a part of this conversation with Leah on a regular basis, what a joy. I mean, it was, it was a ton of fun. Um, we had started by trying to meld our voices and, and co-writing each chapter. And then we realized that our gifts and our voice and voices and our perspectives were really quite different. And so we wanted to co-write the first chapter to talk a little bit about our journeys and what spirituality meant to us, uh, means to us. But then we wanted to, we divvied the world of trees up, uh, according to how we felt our voices and gifts would be best received. And then we edited each other's chapters. We added to each other's chapters. I have paragraphs. In my chapters that you could probably tell where they are. They're so beautiful. They're, they're Leah's. So, and I threw into some stories in her chapters. So that's how we did it. And then we, of course, both read each other's work and edited it and, and talked it through and talked and talked and talked. Oh my goodness. What a joy. Yeah. So who we all want to take it from there. Yeah. Well that, that is true. And uh, you know, the fact that we're willing to go on podcasts together and be in the same room tonight doing book talks and signing, I think is a testament to how well it worked. I think as we went along, we learned from each other, and so I'd like to think that what might have started out as fairly different styles of writing kind of melded into one that wouldn't be too jarring for the reader, so that you probably could tell different voices, but not so much that it felt like a different book. And I think Beth is absolutely right. The learning from each other was just really, was really great. We have a similar style of being organized and when we commit to doing something, we do it. And I think that saved us because that might've been an obstacle too great to overcome for either of us, for each of us. Yeah. Well, and then a lot of mutual respect, you think at the, at the base. Yeah. Seems like a lot of fun, a lot of co-learning, and I'm sure there were a lot of good laughs along the way as well. Well, and we sort of pulled each other back from the edge occasionally. So you're married to a writer, you know that sometimes that's helpful to have somebody who says this too will pass. You know? Right, right. So, yeah. Yeah. So in a couple ways or here, you should eat. Um, yeah. Yes, yes. Beth was often telling me to take a vacation. You know, I didn't often listen, but it was good to be told. Thanks for asking that. It was fun. And we feel like that it really did create a synergy so that. What we have written collectively is more than either of us would've been able to write individually. So thanks. What is next for you? Do, are you have any other projects brewing together? Well, talking about this
book together, so we have a number of bookstores. We're, well, a small number, but a number of bookstores we're showing up in and doing talks and retreats that we're collaborating on. And we have our own individual paths that we're taking as well. I'm writing a weekly substack essay now, which is not exactly what I thought I would do. Like more writing. So there are other things. Beth. Beth is, I don't wanna say more, but Beth enjoys speaking. I enjoy retreat leadership. I think she does too. We're open. We'll see how it plays out. Feel free to book us. We're marketing the book together. And that's, yeah. Less fun than the writing the book together all their, well, the podcasts are fun. I'll say that. And then, but the calling up people and telling them why they should, uh, bring us to their bookstore is less fun. I was gonna quote what someone wrote about your book here, and, and this is Mary Evelyn Talker, and she said, what a treasure. This book captures the extraordinary power of trees to engage human in a reciprocal relationship that transcends words. And, and I think that's just beautiful. That's super beautiful. It's a great description of your book. So again, great work that you, you guys have done. Our podcast is often listened to by. People that are super interested in sustainability, in climate change, in, in things like that. I'm sure this is gonna be fun for them. Super, super, super fun. 'cause it's been fun for us and I wanted you to perhaps speak to them a little bit more directly. And, and my question here is if, let's imagine a future, right? So if more people embrace the spiritual wisdom of trees and some of the things that you're teaching in this book and through your courses and all the interesting things you have going on, what future do you imagine for our planets, for us as a species, as humans, you know, generally. So I'll jump in Beth on that if that's okay. So I wrote the chapter on grief and so much of the grief that I, that I think we feel about forests and trees ease is because of actions we have taken. So certainly there are natural disasters that befall trees and forests, but when we look at the large scale decimation of trees and forests, so much of that is human caused. If we were really paying attention, if we were really deeply connected to trees, if we had come to so fully respect, appreciate and feel gratitude for the role that they play in all life on earth, because they are regulating earth systems, not simply little gifts for us, because we walk through a forest and feel good. Although that's important, if we really understood that capacity that trees have to give life. I would hope and pray that would lead to a change of our actions. I think if you really love and respect an individual, let's say we love and respect each other, then we are gonna want what is best for that person. And that should be the case for trees too. And then I would also say, you'll note that there was a little part where I, where I
did an audit of trees in my house, like what it would probably took to build a fairly small place that my husband and I live in. And it's shocking. It's absolutely shocking. So then the question becomes how much of that is. An honorable harvest to use the words of Robin wa Kimer, where you take no more than you need, you only take no more than half you leave for the rest of the forest. We could go on about that, but I won't. And how much of that is thoughtless? We could name the brands of toilet paper that Jen are cutting down the boreal forest in Canada to produce. I'm saying that only because you're from Canada, not, not because you are cutting down the boreal forest. Yeah. So, you know, I, I just think wake up, you know, we just have to awaken to this incredible, wonderful, beautiful living world, but also life sustaining, vibrant ecosystem that we are part of. That has been so many billion years in the making. And we have no right to destroy it in this little wedge of time that we have here. Well, Lebane, I would, I would add that we have seen firsthand within ourselves and within the classes transformation of which you're alluding that as we fall in love with the forest, if we, we want to, as Leah said, we want to not harm them. One of the exercises we have in the book, as you'll see, is we send people out. We ask them to embrace a tree literally or otherwise, and ask what is it like to be you? And the last question is, am I doing anything to harm you? And so we've seen this, we've the filmmaker who filmed our six week class that we do. Now she's a, she's a wild woman now. She's sold her gas guzzling cars. She's all electric. She has torn up all the non-native plants in her yard. She has an appreciation and love nurturing the trees in her small yard in the city. We've seen this transformation and you know, our hope is that if more and more people see first, see and pay attention to trees and learn to love them because not only of what they give, but what we can give back, that our lives and lifestyles will begin to change and raise that. We all know that we need to, and this is something we haven't talked about, but our having done this work for a while, I know Leah would agree that in our heart we want this. We're like children who have been spoiled. We grew up anxious and. And depressed because we have more than we need and we're happier and more content when we're living in these loving relationships with trees and other elements of the non-human world. Yes. So that's my hope. A very long answer to your question. Oh, it, it was a beautiful answer. Um, you both, um, I've learned a lot from you today, but one of my key takeaways is the passion that you both have, like when it comes to this, right? We could, we could hear the passion in your words and your voice. We could tell that you're not just trying to promote a book or trying to get people to do things like you really do believe in what you're saying and you've practiced it and you've
helped people. You're passionate about this, and that's such a, it's a beautiful thing to see and. Uh, it's a huge takeaway for me, so thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I think it's a conversation that's very, very hard to end, but maybe we have time for last question from Brian. Leah, you commented and talked about the harvesting, and I think I'm probably the only person here on the recording team who, uh, grew up on a timber farm, uh, worked in a lumber mill, worked for a timber company, you know, like, did that for many years of my life and still own and, and produce timber for lumber principally and some other things on our, our farm back home. And it's interesting, I, in working in the timber company, who's, I'll even mention, it's, it's Boise Cascade. I think I met some of the people who were the most compassionate about how these systems work and caring in a sense of this very, not paternalistic as we talked about before, but in this very sense of responsibility and wanting to do right kind of way for these forests that they were helping raise and, and care and do. And um, in my company we talk a lot about trying to hold at bay the US and them dynamic, the sort of like the, the distinction of like, oh, well it's, that's those people over there and there's these people over here. And so with warmth, I, I sort of point out there's a, there's so many people inside those industries that, that the industry may be doing a thing that's not, that doesn't, you know, and, and we do selective harvesting and then there's a whole bunch of different methodologies of harvesting and raising that can have really different outcomes and impacts. On the landscape, the wildlife, the experience, all those things. And I think there's, if this, if we bring this back to a question Ji asked earlier, sort of like for our audience and thinking about sustainability, and Leah, you, you made a statement about sort of like certain toilet paper brands, right. And things, because that's a good thing where there is choice and we, we send these little signals into the system, you know? And, um, who is just saying, uh, Beth, I think it was you was saying about this friend who had like pulled out all the, uh, the, um, non-native plants, right? We have a choice when we choose what plants we're going to plant or what plants we're gonna nourish in our local yard and things, you have choices in all these little things. And those choices then send all these little signals into the system. Mm-hmm. And some of those choices are the things that, like those signals end up amplifying and becoming big signals and accidentally have these big outcomes like the arboreal forest impacts and these kind of things that are like. But it starts with, with wiping your bum with what you buy to wipe your bum with. Um, and so I, so I, I encourage like, just sort of bring up this, like this even broader, you know, sort of perspective around that. 'cause I, I think there's, there's
some, uh, I dunno what the right term is. There's some whole system kind of stuff that needs to be looked at that's not just any one, it's not any one things thing. It's sort of the whole way it all gets impacted by all the little signals. I, well, I might like to respond to that. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. As a shock to you as well as my co-author that I too worked for Boys Cascade. You did. I did. Uh, when I was outta college, I. I wanted to be part of the timber industry so that I could change the system from within. I had lots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also found that the, the guys and gals in the field, I mean, they, they lived in these forests. They cared about these forests. Yeah. They, they hunted and fished and took their children to play in these forests and they had a great respect. Uh, so I am, I am a little sensitive to the US and them, uh, view of things on this topic, right? Yeah. Yes. So I appreciate that, and I really value the time that I spent in the timber industry. I learned a lot about where the pressures were coming from, usually from HQ and the stockholders. So there are a number of choices out there as you suggested, and we, when Ji asked us earlier about what this world that we envision. It, you know, and Lee and I have chatted about this a lot. It's, it's very important for all of us to recognize our complicity. Um, and that yes, forest products, companies are making decisions, not always, uh, the best ones. And I would be the first to, to say that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And yet it is, it is in large part, um, driven by our demand, uh, for paper and wood and so forth. Uh, so we are propelling, um, the process. Could they do better? Of course. And we're watching the president's executive orders on national forests with great interest. There's a right and away mm-hmm. Way to harvest, obviously. So we have to own our part of this. And Lee and I talk a lot about othering elements of mm-hmm. The nonhuman world. But there's also an othering of. Extraction industries and so forth that we need mm-hmm. To be careful with because this, you know, I'm using paper, I'm mm-hmm. Wooden desk here. What's our, what's our part, what's our role? So I'm, I'm, yeah. We should talk more. We should talk more. So I alums. Well, that's great. You'll be naming names next. Very possibly. Um, well that was great. I appreciate that. That was, and that's a great discovery to find. You wanna take us out? Well, uh, if you want to. Yeah. I think it's about time, isn't it? I mean, for our listeners who want to engage with you with this fascinating topic, uh, they can buy the book. There's also a online course. I understand that. Right. And so they can just go to the website and I put it in the show notes that your website and they can send up to your online course and they can also book you. Well, to be a speaker as well. Yeah. There's lots of website options. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So the online course taught through the Center for Spirituality in Nature. Okay. Which I was leading up until a month or so ago. So that, that is housed there. Mm-hmm. So we can get you the links. Sure. And Beth and I both have, uh, websites that are our names, so leah rampe.com and beth norcross.com. So, so thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Wisdom. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you. And pleasure to meet some new, new faces here, so Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for the work care You do. Thanks for the work. Thanks to the wood. You do too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye Byebye. Bye. You've been listening to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day with everyone from everywhere in the world. We'd love you to join the Carbon Sessions so you too can share your perspectives from wherever you are. This is a great way for our community to learn from your ideas and experiences, connect and take action. If you want to add your voice to the conversation, go to the carbonalmanac. org slash podcast. and sign up to be part of a future episode. This podcast is also part of the Carbon Almanac Network. For more information, to sign up for the emails, to join the movement, and to order your copy of The Carbon Almanac, go to thecarbonalmanac. org. Be sure to subscribe and join us here again, as together we can change the world.