رونوشت کامل A Conversation with Leah Rampy and Reconnecting Earth and Soul amid Climate Chaos

had native grass, you know, we just had these huge fields that as we rotated the cattle around, they, you know, they left behind and then it grew up and then we went cattle into what was like a big meadow and it was just, we didn't plant seeds. We didn't do it. It was just whatever was growing there, right. Sort of natively for a long time. And to be able to go walk through like sort of these like native meadow spaces is it's all a really lovely experience. Um, so thanks for helping lead that. Um. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I, I may take us now like an entirely different direction. Um, but one of my other questions, you, you've got some of your own professional roots are in some pretty large corporations like American Express and Fannie Mae and sort of like, you Very large, I don't know what fortune 100, probably maybe fortune 500, but you know, very large corporation. And I'm curious as you know, we're sort of going through this place where we recognize that companies need to be some of the thought leaders in making change patterns and supporting process pattern changes all the way down through their operations in so many ways, like. What was, what was it like being inside those companies and any thoughts and guidance to other people who are working in large, in both big companies and small as, as to how they can think about bringing some of this connectivity that you talk about in your book? Into experiences inside their company. Yeah, I think that's a, that's a bit of a tricky one. And I want to be honest that by the time I was really interested in what was going on in the world in terms of climate change, I had moved out of the corporate world. And had begun to do executive coaching, leadership development, and then eventually moved into, uh, leading a non profit. So once you're in the non profit world, as long as your mission aligns, you have a lot more freedom. To be speaking in ways that are sometimes, uh, might feel quite constrained if you're in the corporate world. I know that there are more organizations interested in going green and, you know, my, my children are better examples of this than me because they join in with environmental groups within the organizations where they work and really appreciate that opportunity. But my own personal experience was. Not one of paying much attention at all to what was going on in the world outside of my door. You know, it was much more the typical, get in the, walk down the stairs, get in the car, open the garage door, drive to work, park in a parking garage, go up to your office, and put your head down in work. And it was really, not only not was I not paying attention to uh, climate change and to biodiversity loss. I was really not very connected to the world around me. I would, I missed it and I would love being connected. Um, when I could on a vacation or a weekend or whatever, but there were long periods of time that, that was not my priority. So I'm chagrined to say that. I'm not particularly proud of it, but I also want to be honest because, has I lost, I lost track of what was important. Yeah, which can, which can happen to all of us. I mean, I think it does happen to many of us. Um, that's great. And I was wondering, um, if there are moments when you have this trigger, trigger moments when you realize that I have to leave this corporate world. Um, and do something else with my life. I spent two years trying to figure out how I was going to leave and if I was going to leave. And it, at the time, was more about wanting to spend more time with my youngest child. in particular. So that was the, that was the genesis, but I loved my job. It was a good one. It was what I had worked hard for. It had the kind of trappings that, um, no one would have been sympathetic if you told them that you're, you know, laboring over whether you should leave this job. So those make it, um, you know, they, they don't use the term golden handcuffs for nothing. It, You know, it's very hard sometimes to leave, and I kept trying to figure out, well, what is it I want to do if I'm leaving this? And I couldn't figure it out. So finally, I decided I just had to take the plunge in order to even be able to figure out if there was a there there. Now, I don't know if you're interested in this, but Um, after that, a few years, a colleague and I did a series of interviews and focus groups with people who had left large organizations, um, after they got to the job they had aspired to. And. It was always that first move was so incredibly difficult. And then we tended to find that once people made that move and sort of knew they could survive, it was easier then for them to make a second or a third or a fourth. They weren't so deeply attached to it. But making that first one was a really big, Decision and a big leap. I can, I can relate. Me too. I can relate too. I had, you said something about not feeling connected and I, can I read something from your book here? Of course. I love this. We are made for oneness. Born of the stars as are all beings we are inextricably of and within the holy mystery itself Whether we know it or not whether we live into it or not. We cannot separate ourselves from the shimmering web of life. Ah That's just beautiful and when when did you feel that connection after you left when did you feel like you were more connected to that shimmering web of life. So forests speak to me, um, individual trees as well. I've taken to saying sometimes I think because I grew up in Kansas where there were so few, they were so precious to me. But, um, So, I would say those kinds of experiences always had the power to halt my busy mind and let me drop in more to, um, an embodied feeling. of being connected and being present. So that could happen in a, you know, walking around the yard. If I could get my busy mind to stop, it was more likely to happen in a place where I was surrounded more fully by the living world. And then I would be really be able

to slow that down. But it took me, um, probably years, maybe five years or so after leaving the corporate world, because I didn't fully slow down. I kept doing executive coaching and leadership development work. So I had more spaciousness in my schedule, but not so much, um, a change of scene. in some ways. So it was a long process of unwinding for me. I'm a slow learner when it comes to some of these things. So it, it really took me a while to get clear that that was what was important. When I was working, um, In the, um, in the nonprofit world, I was executive director for Shalem Institute, which is a, uh, an institute that supports contemplative living and leadership. And so I was inviting people into the world and retreats and in pilgrimages, and that was such a rich gift. You know, what a retreat was in the corporate world was really turned on its head when we're talking about the kind of retreats that I started leading. It was a whole different kind of experience for me as a leader and certainly for participants. So a lot of my, um, a lot of my discovery has been in going with others. You know, kind of in an, in accompanying others into quiet or into open spaces, into microscopic beauty. Um, I just, in accompanying, I find it a heart opening experience. That's, you know, something that I've got a few friends as teachers that they, you know, you ask them, how do you handle the stress, um, You know, corralling 23rd graders, right? Like they're, you know, like all this energy and stress and, and they're like, you know, the joy is like seeing their eyes learn these things for the first time and like getting to keep reliving that pure, that deep, pure joy and excitement is like a thing that I have a few friends that like hearken to in that space. And, and the way you said that Leah reminds me of that teacher mentality of like getting to. The joy is getting to watch someone else come to that, that, uh, that moment the first time and you get to keep redoing it. Um, it's interesting that you say that sort of thing. We. For our, we have a twice a year sort of retreat for my company, for our, our leadership and the, and we rotate who plans it. And one of the, the team member who's planning it this year is a lover of the outdoors and has advocated for, and with a little bit of little bit of pulling everyone along has gotten the leadership to agree to go. do it as an outdoor retreat as opposed to sort of our classic, you know, we all gather together, we fly in and sit in the conference room. And, you know, we might go out to a dinner that night, but instead of going out and going camping together, um, and having our meetings. So it's, it is a full new, she's a very respected team member. She's been with us 20 something years, and she's got enough, uh, uh, chips with all the other managers that she's like, this is what I'm leading. This is what we're doing. She got everyone on board. So I'm excited to see if maybe. Maybe those conversations and strategic things are, maybe there's, there's a difference if we're doing an outdoors, not, not in a conference room. Uh, Brian, I would love to hear about that because I really, I would be curious if relationships, um, change, you know, there, there is something, there's something around a campfire, you know, there's something about starlit nights that's different. Different pace. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm excited to see how it goes. Oh, I will, I will report back to you. Good. Is there, I'm curious as you witness people sort of go through that transition a little bit. Are there other things that you think to encourage them now that, you know, there's some of that waking up that you then help send them down the pathway of like other little, you Habits or patterns? Like I tend to think about things as like pattern change. Like, are there other little changes to their own daily patterns or habits that you encourage that might help keep nourishing that little spark or flame? I love that you asked that. Um, I had a teacher who reminded us that, you know, you're always practicing something. So, even though we can think that how many thousand times it will take to establish a new habit, but it only starts when it starts because otherwise you're continuing to practice your old habit and reinforcing that. So it becomes very embodied. Um, when I was doing executive coaching, I did a fair amount of work and study in the, in the somatic field. And that was really helpful for me because I had cultivated a life of the mind and I think that my own experience is that a relationship to a tree or a plant or a bird or whatever is much less likely to happen if I am only about, um, understanding their biology, uh, be sure I'm, Being sure that I could name what they are, you know, identifying sounds, whatever, if I'm coming at it from a mind space, it's a different relationship, like it would be with you. You know, if my, if my entire relationship with you was around content and problem solving, that's very different than if we see each other from more of a heart space. In the natural world, I would say the invitation is to go to our senses. And, you know, and, and take them one by one and refine them. Because for me, if I keep practicing over and over what I'm thinking about and how I will speak and how I can articulate what I want to say or write or convey, I am less practicing listening or, or taking in the smell of the pines. or hearing all of the sounds in a forest. There's a practice, a Celtic practice called tuning the five stringed harp, which Jen's nodding, you probably read in the book, you know, taking one at a time, each of those strings of the harp, each of those senses. And just focusing in on that and tuning it and staying with it and sharpening it. You think about our ancestors and how generations back, they would have had to know those things. They wouldn't have lived if they hadn't, you know, so they would have had to know that and they would have to, you

know, it's a, it's a sensory experience, it's a gut feeling, it's a heart opening. It's all of those somatic practices that I invite people to. Over and over again and slowing, always slowing. I was reading something this morning from the center, uh, for action and contemplation, and it was speaking to that, it was speaking to, you know, it's not all about, um, the business the, the brain business and, uh, and more, uh, more about the heart. And, uh, and so in that, I'm, I'm thinking you have a chapter in here, uh, called Dancing with Grief and Joy. And one of the questions I have is about, uh, is about the grief around what's going on with climate right now. And, and how does one mitigate that? How does one, I mean, how does one accompany people through that maybe is a better question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like the way you adjusted that because I, I don't think we can mitigate the grief. Um, it is here. Um, it's surrounding us. We are not going to live long enough, any of us, to have a future where the grief is not present around the loss of so many things in this amazing, beautiful world. If you read, I don't know, I think it's in the Washington Post and may well be in the New York Times. If you've read recently, I think it was the day before yesterday, about the howler monkeys in Mexico falling out of the trees, dead or dying, because they are both malnourished and dehydrated. And it is true. just simply heartbreaking. There is no way that we cannot find ourselves full of grief if we're paying any attention at all. So rather than say, what do we do about that? How do we avoid it? Could we stick our head in the sand? You know, could we cover our eyes, cover our ears? Which I totally understand is so tempting. I think the question is how do we open larger, larger? How do we open ourselves more and more? How do we allow our hearts to break so that we hold that grief along with. The awe and the wonder and the beauty and the joy, because it is also there. And so my concern is if we deny the grief, we numb ourselves. And in numbing ourselves, then we numb all experiences, you know, or we just don't get to choose to be sort of numb. And so. We want to be fully alive and present to this amazing world and to each other in these edge times as difficult as they are. That's the dancing. It's holding, holding both and finding the beauty that exists both alongside the sadness and sometimes the beauty that exists within. that loss as well. So not an easy thing for me. It's the only way I see to be with. What is happening? For that, do you have any practical tips to raise an open jaw? Well, in a way, in a way, Leaky, they're, they're kind of the same practices, right, that you would if you were going to experience awe and wonder. And you may want to start with the awe and wonder as your practice because it's everywhere, you know. Um, but it is opening the senses. You know, it is opening the heart. If you think about being with, um, a good friend who is grieving and maybe you don't even know why, you just know they're in a really state of, you know, a deep state of sadness and you're sitting with them, whether they say anything or not, you know, you notice their eyes are welling up. You notice that there's a way in which they're holding their bodies. You know, that's grief and your body knows that. And it responds. And you feel tears welling up in your eyes, you know, so if we're talking about the for talking about being in nature in a place where there's a lot of loss. I think we don't have to try to do anything except to simply be there. Now grief is best held, um, with ritual, you know, and we probably have to invent a lot of those because we don't have some that maybe, maybe our ancestors did. So ritual. And with others who are like hearted. Um, Much of what we have to bear would be very hard to bear alone. So, both with other humans and with those more than, more than humans in the world, we join in, in our grief and in our joy. Um, Leah, may I ask a question, um, for our audience, can you help talk through and explain somatic therapy and sort of just explain that term and what it means and sort of the body of practice behind it a little bit? You had some great commentary. Yeah. We're about it and it. And it feels very applicable to this conversation and your thoughts. Yeah, sure. So what I was, uh, what I was working on is what was called somatic leadership, which simply says you don't just walk into a room as a leader with a voice and with an action plan. You walk into a room as a fully embodied person. And so we would all know that difference. We would be able to see it because people expect words and body to align. And when they don't, we don't trust them. So if I were to say to you, sure, Brian, I'm, I'm very happy to help you with that. With my arms folded. You wouldn't feel that. Right. And for our audience listening, like Leah just embodied the opposite of her words in the context here. Leah was definitely telling me no with her body. And in tone, we, you know, tone, Brian, because we learn so much from tone. So it's the words, the tone, the nonverbals all aligned. We think that our words matter, but people, people read us far more from our nonverbals and then our tone and our words are kind of frosting. On the cake. Yeah. So when I talk about somatic practices, um, what I'm talking about is a practice that invites me to be open, present, and available. That would mean to be open, present, and available is, let's say, let's say we were in a setting and I was your boss and you came in to talk to me. And I was sitting there answering emails and picking up phone calls in the middle. You would not have the sense that I was open, present, and available to you. That's one piece of it. You know, the other piece is kind of like determining our intent and holding that intent, um, in a way that we're embodying it as well. It's like we are the declaration of what we want to accomplish. It's

not an out there in the speech. It's a fully embraced sense. Yep. You're doing it. See, we're both doing the up and down that nobody can see, but Leah and I both just made the same gesture of just Yeah, yeah, it's hard not to because that's what we're talking about, right? We're talking about the importance of embodying. And so we're trying to figure out, this is it. This is my whole problem with my book. I'm trying to write about things that actually are. don't have words, you know, and now I'm trying to explain a concept through words that I'm really talking about is beyond words. So here we go. Embodiment, incarnation. Oh, I was just going to ask about, um, kith and kin, and if you wouldn't mind talking about that, explaining that to us a bit. Sure. Sure. So, uh, indigenous scholar Enrique Salmon speaks about kin centric ecology, and the idea that for many, uh, if not most indigenous peoples, there is a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood with the more than human world around. Robin Wall Kimmerer is, um, an author I think so highly of, and I really, um, would love to just sit at her feet for long extended periods of time. She writes over and over about kinship, that we are the younger brother and sister, that when you look at the evolution of the universe. We come last, so we are the least knowledgeable. Trees, for instance, have been here far longer than we have, so they have practice, they have a knowing that we don't have. And it's, so that's one way of thinking about it. Another way of thinking about it is to, um, not assume that our intelligence is superior in every way, but to understand that many beings have their own unique intelligence, some of which we just haven't even begun to learn about yet. We started out, Brian, we were talking about soil. Well, think about, you know, what's going on under this top layer that is amazing. It's connected. It's sending messages. It's sending nutrients and receiving them. I mean, there's this whole amazing system that we didn't even know about until fairly recently. We certainly didn't know how trees were exchanging nutrients with each other underground and keeping each other alive. So, so there is so much intelligence in this world. And so this is also another way of, of honoring that. So when I'm speaking of kin, I am intentionally doing that. That's a habit I am trying to establish to break my habit of othering. So anything I treat as othering. Other, other than human, or other than me. I begin to slip into this. Um, sense that it is something I could use. It's something I could own. It's something that serves me and my wants, and that it doesn't have this viability of its own, and I think it's a slippery slope because once we other, um, let's say the land around us, then maybe I other the people who are living on that land. And they too are not like me. And maybe they're lesser than. And, um, there's a, there's a, Amitav Ghosh in The Nutmeg's Curse talks about how the words brute and savage were cultivated to hold people as other, and therefore being other, you were allowed to do what you willed. to be dominant over. So that's maybe a whole lot longer than you wanted, but that's a piece of the kin, is trying to re establish a, a more, uh, appreciative and loving focus with what's around us. Now kif, I just sort of went back and grabbed that. That's a historical term that was occasionally used to mean the land. Um, and then It somehow fell in to be kith and kin. It was just sort of like one phrase all together. And because I needed a word, I, I really said, let's put kith back there with land. So we have the land and the beings on the land, the kin. Um, because that was a concept I really wanted to talk about. Is that, you started your book in the introduction, telling the story of a woman who's weeding. Um, as weaving in, in Dun, um, weaving a piece of cloth, or, I don't remember exactly, but, and I was just struck by the word weave, and weaving. It just resonated with me so strongly, like, you know, the, I mean, what is lacking today is to weave us, or it's to weave a relationship with the world. Everything around us, we have this umbering relationship with everything around us, whereas I think what, I think this is what we're trying to explain, that the right attitude is to weave our stories, our, our life, our, our evolution together. I mean, maybe I'm, I'm misinterpreting the, the sense of. I totally agree with you. Yes. Yes. It's a journey, it's a journey of reweaving. I actually started out, that was the title I was using, Reweaving Earth and Soul. Actually I started Reweaving Soul and Earth, is what I was calling it, in edge times. Um, those were important to me. And then I had a publisher who said, nobody's going to know what you're talking about. And I was like, that is what I want to talk about. Um, so yeah, so it, so it evolved, but yes, I'm glad you picked up the story of the woman weaving the world because I think, uh, you know, it's an old story and some of these rich old stories can be interpreted in so many ways, even by us, you know, tomorrow. May be a, a way we interpret that's very different than today, given whatever comes our way, we keep, that's what a good story should have, right? That richness of being able to, uh, to explore and hold it and, and look at it in many different ways. And, and I don't know if you want me to say a bit about that story or, yeah. So this is a story of the old woman weaving the world who is in a cave, probably not very far from where you live, uh, but you can never find this cave. And all day long, she sits and weaves the most beautiful fabric in the world. Every so often though, she has to get up from her weaving and walk to the back of this cave, this cave that, um, is very deep because it's important that she stir This big pot that is on the fire that is full of the roots and the seeds and the nuts of this living world and if she doesn't stir it then it might burn and who knows

what problems that might cause. So she walks very slowly to the back of the cave and as she is stirring Stirring and then very slowly returning because she is very old. There's a black dog who awakens. He's been lying there all the time at her feet. And he begins to gnaw on the weaving and pull on one thread and then another and then another until pretty soon all of the weaving is lying on the floor. When she returns, then she sees all of her beautiful work in disarray. And she pauses, and she looks, and then slowly she bends down, and she picks up one of the threads, and a new design takes place in her mind, and slowly she begins to reweave a new and even more beautiful design. Can I just confess that that story struck me so much that I actually told it. At the beginning of a sermon, I'm a minister, so at the beginning of a sermon, um, because it was just so perfect. That's so good. I heard a friend, I had a friend who told the story and I, you're more perceptive than I. The first couple of times I heard it, I went, okay, where's that going? And what an annoying thing. And I've told it to people who are like, well, why didn't she just put the dog out? Because clearly this is going to happen every time. Why is she leaving the dog there? And my response is, because it's a story. And you know, you're going to have to resolve that. I, you know, I don't tell you what it means. So anyway, but yeah, so it took me a while to get it, uh, in my heart, you know, and, and now I love the story and it means everything and nothing and different things every time. I love it. There's the sort of almost the instead of putting the dog out because let's say that represents entropy, like sort of like all this chaos and all these other things, right? Like Um, we know we can't, and so if we can't, let's be at peace and make something new and beautiful out of, you know, there's so many layers to that lesson. I wanted to go back to, I think it was like a minute ago, because it, it echoed really strongly for me, my, many of my friends, but especially my coworkers hear me talk incessantly about what I refer to as, as others do, it's my term, as the us. them dynamic, right? And sort of our, our anchoring in our evolutionary biology around like our brains are hardwired to create and draw a distinction between two different things. Right? I'm holding up here on the video, two different coffee cups of different shapes and types, one's a thermos and one's a classic ceramic. Well, they're both coffee cups, but they're two different, like you can look at them and be like, well, those are not the same thing. They're very different. They have different colors and shapes. And attributes, but they're both coffee cups or tea. They're, at the moment, they're both tea cups. Um, and I talk a lot about how we're wired to find those distinctions. And it's like our prefrontal, like our cognitive side that needs to help us undo that. That thing that naturally just happens, right? Um, and we

find that challenge in so many places in, in, in our daily life, whether it's around, you know, affinity towards political groups or religious or of sexual orientation, just all these different things. And I'm curious, you know, any wisdom that you might share with our audience about how we do that, that practice, how, how do we go back to the practice of overcoming that innate, natural. You know, pattern recognition and pattern differentiation function with, that is part of our species and many other species. How do we overcome that on a, on a daily minute to minute basis in a way that helps us take that us dynamic and spread that circle to include some of the them and make our circle bigger and bigger and bigger and, and it's both throughout, you know, expanded amongst us humans. But then also to look at these, I was just reading about the howler monkeys that you mentioned, which I had not yet heard that story and looking at them being like, those are the size of my kids, right? Like, and they're dying from heat exhaustion from a heat wave. And you know, like that's hard to think about if you really pause and reflect on like, what's happening. You know, and, and that group. So I, I go back to my question, I guess, being like for tips and wisdom on how we widen that us perspective and then be more inclusive of the, what otherwise might be the thems. Yeah, well, um, you know, here's my hunch. Um, I, as you said, our brains are really good at that. They're really good at differentiating and, and there's certainly times we need to differentiate, right? So that's an important brain function. My hunches go to the heart, because the heart knows how to keep drawing bigger and bigger circles, right? The heart has this limitless capacity for compassion and so in that continual opening of the heart, we hold the mind in a little bit more of a Well, we let the mind stay in its place. I think we're so, me, I'll stay me. I'm so practiced because I spent years of practicing. Let me back up and say that I was a female executive trying to move ahead in a world full of men. You do not think I was leading with the heart, do you? I mean, really. you know, that was not how the game was played. Now, I was trying to be kind to people. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying I became really practiced in logical, rational, um, Interactions, problem solvings, argument and decision making. So my practice has been, needs some balance here. That needs to balance out with a heart that is more open and caring and loving. There's a contemplative, uh, phrase called the mind and heart, you know, to bring your mind into your heart. We also know from those who study the heart that a lot of the information comes in through the heart. We just send it to the mind, and then the mind, depending on what we're letting our mind do, can take over. So, that's my hunch, is that when, uh, When we can't get out of the othering or, you know, the, making the distinctions, um, when we're so annoyed about how that person, you know, took over something that we were supposed to do and that was mine and what are they doing interfering, or I'm feeling dismissed. It, it, we've got to drop, you know, we've got to drop into that hard space if we don't want that to be the place that we are, you know, living and engaging. in that moment or in all of our moments, perhaps. That make sense? I have a question now about, um, what the right response has been to the book. It's been out since February and I just wonder what conversations are you having now, now that it's out there? Yeah. Well, conversations like these are so, so back up. I wrote the book because I said, this is the conversation that right now, as far as I can tell, this is the conversation that I want to be in for the rest of my life. Like, I feel like this is the conversation I'm called into. So here we go. I've already told you, you know, candidly about my background and I will tell you occasionally or maybe more than occasionally, I warp into this, do I have enough reviews on Amazon? And where I'm really trying to live is in these absolutely wonderful, enriching conversations. that are so meaningful to me and to others. And so the responses that I really just. You know, care about, someone wrote on, on Goodreads something along the lines of, I'm so glad I found this book. It's the first time I've been able to breathe in months. I mean, that's why I wrote the book, you know, if there are 10 people who feel that way, I'm done, right? I mean, really. Um. I'm So that would be worth two years, two years of work, two years of writing and another year of getting it out in the world. That would be worth it if, if people could, um, see a way to hold. How we will live in these times on the edge of such loss. I will say that it seems to be the people who most resonate with the book are those who are already working really hard for this world and are feeling so sad that you know, they They don't see the difference and um, so I just, I'm enjoying being a companion on the road for people who are in that kind of space. I resonate with all the viewer on the bridge because I've just started reading your book and after the chapter I felt, wow. I feel really, you know, there's a way, there's something I can do, and uh, and maybe I'm just not looking at the issue the right way, and there's another way. But at the same time, I feel that it will take so much time and so much resources and so many, all the people need to be involved. So what can we do? I know. I know. Well, I think yes and yes. Um, I mean, I want everybody to be involved and I also don't know what it's yours to do. And that's what I want you to find, like, what is that one thing that's planted deep within because we can't do everything. And that's not easy for some of us who are used to trying to take on the world. Your one, your one thing may be that you bring together people to have these kinds of conversation. And that is not, you know, that

should in no way be considered not enough. I mean, that is a huge gift to the world. And so then you pour everything you have into that, and you know that you are making a difference beyond what you can know and what you will ever know. And that the difference you're making may not even show up in your lifetime. I don't know. You know, I mean, we know, you all know that so much of this climate, um, chaos is baked in. I mean, it's baked in. If we made these drastic changes now, dramatic changes, not drastic, dramatic, not drastic in that they, we would probably all have significantly better lives than we imagine. Were we to make these kind of significant changes and be so much less involved in, you know, you know, consuming and needing and anyway, before I fall down that hole, um, I mean, that's the problem, right? There's so many threads we can, we can follow here, but you know, so it's baked in and we are going to be facing loss. So I see, I see that we just have to save that. You know, we can't lie to ourselves and each other and I, I don't believe let's not tell people the truth because you know, it will make them do nothing. I think we tell them the truth because they, they have a piece of this. Every single person has a piece of this. So I'm going to tell you that it's bad and I'm also going to tell you that it's not. That your possibility is living into that gift you have been given and giving it as fully and freely and generously as you possibly can in reciprocity and gratitude for all the world is giving you. And to see those things and to lift them up and to, yeah, all right, I'm going to quit because I'm starting to do, do Jen's sermon for her here. Yeah, you did. I'm just like, This is wonderful. Thank you, Leah. Thank you. Anybody have another question? I'm looking at our time and I know we've kept you quite long here. Oh well, I love it. We could do, you know, I'm sorry, sorry we're not sitting around the campfire, you know. Well, yeah, I'm actually curious about that. Maybe we can all at some point come, or even just virtually. Yeah, we could do that one day. Yeah. But I'm curious about the, the privilege of the second places in the U. S. and internationally that you're leading. What are those places and what's the goal and how does it feel to, you know, to do this privilege? Well, so, um, I've done probably, I don't know, pilgrimages, um, and, um, to really wonderful, beautiful places from the Pacific Northwest to, uh, the Isle of Iona off the coast of Scotland. I'm not doing them anymore, and I'm not doing them anymore because, um, a colleague of mine, Beth Norcross, who runs the Center for Spirituality and Nature, and I, um, have been collaborating on some different programs together, and we're currently writing a book together. She challenged me somewhere along the way to create a pilgrimage close to home. So, um, You know, that kind of sunk in with me, that we shouldn't have to go far in order to go deep. That makes me, I think

there's another layer to that maybe that wasn't intentional, which is without that expanded travel footprint, right? We, we sometimes, I was actually just chatting with someone, um, here in the U. S., it's Memorial Day weekend, a classic sort of start of summer, um, big, everyone goes somewhere and, and has a big barbecue. And they said, oh, where are you going? And I said, I live in a beautiful place. Why do I need to go anywhere? I'm going to spend time, my family might regret this, but I said, we're just going to spend time and like work in our backyard and just be here in this beautiful place. I already live. I don't need to go to some big destination. And so Leah, it's interesting as you take the idea of pilgrimage and bring it local and say that, you know, there's something local to you to find your, there's also like a reduced footprint that you create. As a result of making that decision to not go to this. Absolutely. That's not lost on me at all, Brian, because that, you know, that it, it, it has a sense of a little, well, a lot of dis ease to be, you know, and, and I justified it for a long time talking about what rich experiences people had, which I believe are true. And yet, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe to bring this slightly full circle, you know, I don't know, maybe, you know, A year and a half ago, I can't remember exactly, we did a podcast recording with, um, uh, sort of an innovative thinker named Joshua Spodek, um, who also has a great podcast, uh, The Sustainable Life and, and, and, you know, teaches and all those things. And one of the things that came out of it for me, Josh and I then started working on some other things sort of on the side together and, and he is. His reflective questioning caused me to have a lot of, um, really looking at the impact of my own life and my work travel and all these things. And, and even just all every last little bit of my daily behaviors came into reflective as I was thinking about it. And actually it was the grief and the stress from that self reflection became almost overwhelming. And this is something I'm right on the podcast here. You know, it really led to just a level of overwhelming stress and, uh, which then led to like not sleeping, exhaustion, and then led to other health things, um, that culminated last, um, last January and not happy health moment for me. And, uh, and a lot, some down deep, but that was some of this like wrestling with the grief of all these things as I looked around. So maybe as we. Um, come back to, uh, the beginning of this podcast, maybe share with our listeners here some of the, your thoughts and wisdom on dealing with that as, as you do, as you, as you pick your head up out of the sand and look around and absorb the things happening, you, you can't help come to the rational conclusion, Oh my goodness, this is really not good stuff. And, and I. All of us are contributing to the not good stuff in one fashion or another. Um, so thoughts on like how to deal with those, those big emotions that can come out of that and the sort of the stress, anxiety. Well, I think to the degree possible, you know, I said this before, we want to go together, right? So we want to be with others. Um, you know, and we'll, we'll help, um, not deny what we're feeling, not tell us that it's wrong or that it's untrue, but acknowledge the truth of it and be in a place where they invite us into the and of it, the joy, the beauty, the, the wisdom. So that's, that's one thing. Um, I don't think we can always look at it all the time and always hold it front and center that we have to go into those places and be nourished. So I can go into the woods and I can look at, you know, so many trees that are being decimated by invasive species. And I can also go in there and enjoy. It's shady. It's beautiful. The canopy is gorgeous. The, you know, the amazing network underground is doing these incredible, magical things. You know, I can smell the air being cleaner. There's, I can sit with that. And, uh, I have to because that's also part of our healing. I think we have to keep healing ourselves so that we can do this work so that we cannot dull ourselves, you know, so that we can hold this grief that is. And I think sometimes our companions, you know, our, um, John O'Donohue talked about our anamkara, our soul friends, soul friends that accompany us and, you know, listen deeply to our feelings. Our soul friends can be trees or birds or, you know, a beautiful grassy knoll or a prairie, whatever. And so sometimes it's going into that soul friend and just listening, like, keep breathing in until we can let those thoughts go and be with what is. I use the, you know, I think of the metaphor of walking along a cliff edge, of being on the edge, and you know, there's the, the wind and the waves are pounding below, and part of a cliff is carved out, and we don't know how long it will last, but that doesn't mean there aren't little flowers. Growing along the edge. It doesn't mean that you can't reach out and take the hand of somebody next to you and pull them back. It doesn't mean that you can't help each other over the rocks and stones. It probably does mean that the path we're going to be creating isn't clear. Um, I, I don't know who, you know, this is the thing. The old woman came back and she stopped. And she waited, and I think we're on a threshold where we have to wait because I don't think it's clear how a future that leads us to mutual well being is going to emerge. And so I think there's some waiting that we're also doing, which is not an easy place for most of us to be. It's very hard. So we're doing some waiting to see what's invited and what is, what is Earth's invitation that we can walk along with her. Um, but in the meantime, you know, there's part of this deepening our gifts and our own sense of, you know, call and invitation that we have. It's not easy. It's, it's definitely not. Um, and, You know, we look for all those little wonderful sparks of sparks of joy and bird song. The idea of waiting there, but finding those flowers and sort of the things that are flourishing there and, you know, being a little bit with them patient with. You know, the, not that they're cognizant of the risk of being on the cliff side, but just sort of being patient with like just being where they are. You know, you just provoked for me when you said that there was a favorite quote that I've had and I'm going to have to go back up. I don't know if it's Neruda. I can't remember who said it. A burning patience has taken us thus far. If people want to, uh. Find you. Leah, where do they find you? I, I often say I have a very cleverly named website. It's leahrampey. com. So, yeah, so you could go there. I do occasionally put out a little newsletter. I do lead retreats and you can see where I'm doing that on, on the website. I am on Instagram at Leah Rampy. I'm on LinkedIn at Leah Rampy and I'm on Facebook at Leah Rampy Writer. So, and the book's available, you know, at the usual places and go ask your local bookstore to order it. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. I'm so glad that you had me. What a delightful opportunity. I feel really, uh, I feel really energized and privileged to have had the chance to talk with the three of you. You make a terrific trio. Thank you. Thank you. So wonderful having you here, Leah. It feels very privileged to talk with you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, and thanks for all of the good work you're putting in to the world. You've been listening to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day, with everyone, from everywhere in the world. We'd love you to join the Carbon Sessions. So you too can share your perspectives from wherever you are. This is a great way for our community to learn from your ideas and experiences, connect and take action. If you want to add your voice to the conversation, go to the carbonalmanac. org slash podcasts and sign up to be part of a future episode. This podcast is also part of the Carbon Almanac Network. For more information, to sign up for the emails, To join the movement and to order your copy of The Carbon Almanac, go to thecarbonalmanac. org. Be sure to subscribe and join us here again, as together we can change the world.