رونوشت کامل The World’s Deadliest Infectious Disease. A Company Owned by 14 Million Rwandans | Michael Fairbanks

15 00:02:46.700 --> 00:03:01.000 Well, as I said, thank you so much for coming on here. You're a presidential advisor to Mandela and five Colombian presidents, Rwandan citizen, pharmaceutical co-founder tackling the world's most infectious disease. 16 00:03:01.420 --> 00:03:11.540 I mean, we truly could do a few episodes here, so let's just start at the beginning. Paint us a picture of your childhood growing up and then what it was like to be going to Kenya at that time. 17 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:21.840 [laughs] No one's ever asked me that before. That's, uh, that's really interesting. I grew up in Scranton, Pennsylvania, which is the-- we kind of joke that it's the Paris of Appalachia. 18 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:29.780 You know, it's at the northern end of the Appalachia region. And it's a coal mining, uh, community, and I'd never been anywhere at all. 19 00:03:29.920 --> 00:03:43.340 And I decided after my sophomore year of college that I was gonna join the Peace Corps and, uh, go somewhere very remote and, and try to be helpful. I was very idealistic about it. Yeah, I had a similar experience. 20 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:52.360 I decided not to do Peace Corps, but I bought a one-way ticket to what was war-torn Colombia at the time. Yeah, yeah. And wound up working there for two years, pretty deeply w- in human rights. 21 00:03:52.540 --> 00:04:03.740 I did meet a number of Peace Corps volunteers. None of them became presidential advisors. [laughs] How does that then translate to you becoming a head of state advisor? 22 00:04:03.820 --> 00:04:16.959 Well, you can answer the question on multiple levels, right? You have an affinity for Africa and for working in the Global South. The second is your, your appetite for rational risks is higher than most people's. 23 00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:23.480 I'm sure you found this in Colombia. You were just doing things that your family would think were just outrageous. 24 00:04:24.020 --> 00:04:40.060 But then I went to graduate school and focused on economic development, and then I joined Chase Manhattan on Wall Street to do Africa banking and began to accumulate the skills, the attitudes, the business approaches that would help me to help other people. 25 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:54.460 And so, um, I was working as a management consultant focused on developing countries. And one day, two guys had come in and, uh, asked me if, uh, they could talk to the people working on poor countries in the company. 26 00:04:54.500 --> 00:05:06.080 Well, there was nobody doing that, and I was very junior, but I said, "I'll, I'll help you." And it turned out that one of them was Andres Pastrana, who you probably know became president of Colombia many years later. 27 00:05:06.500 --> 00:05:16.640 Yeah. And his friend, Luis Alberto Moreno, became the- Wow... president of the In-Inter-American Development Bank. And they became two of the most important people in the hemisphere. 28 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:19.740 But they were just college students at Harvard when I met them. 29 00:05:20.260 --> 00:05:34.980 And then they invited me to Colombia, and I gave a few speeches, and the next thing you know, they ushered me into the then president, uh, Gaviria, César Gaviria, and they hired me to lead a process to improve their export competitiveness and their private sector development. 30 00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:37.200 And that, that project succeeded. 31 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:52.020 So all of a sudden, I'm in Venezuela, I'm in Peru, I'm in Ecuador, and then one day I get a call from Nelson Mandela's, um, office that he is running for election, and he needs a plan, and would you come to South Africa and, and talk to him? 32 00:05:52.260 --> 00:05:57.620 Wow. So that's how it got started. You know, I hear a lot of good intention under what you're saying. 33 00:05:57.700 --> 00:06:08.000 You did mention a little while back, you know, African banker, and I think a lot of people, when you hear that, okay, white guy born in Pennsylvania becomes an African banker. Yeah. 34 00:06:08.020 --> 00:06:22.348 What made your approach different to maybe the stereotypes that I'm thinking about? Yeah, that's a great question. So Most advisors to poor countries deal in the domain of macroeconomics. 35 00:06:22.868 --> 00:06:33.668 So they, they focus on four things: stabilize the economy, privatize the industry, liberalize the trade, and, uh, democratize the decision-making. And then-- And it's very top-down. 36 00:06:34.268 --> 00:06:42.428 You know, "Here's the twelve things to do, and you should be fine. And if it doesn't work, it's because you're not smart or you don't have the courage to do the right thing." That was the model. 37 00:06:43.288 --> 00:06:55.968 My model, rather than top-down, was bottom-up. Like, "Let's, let's build the businesses-" Hmm... "and let's focus on exporting, and let's focus on high-end rising wages for the average worker." 38 00:06:56.208 --> 00:07:04.088 W-w-- The macroeconomists might say, you know, "Keep wages low because that keeps the cost structure low and allows you to export." 39 00:07:04.248 --> 00:07:15.608 Having been raised in the African villages and understanding the people, uh, at their level, said, "No, no, we need to export things where the wages go up. We don't wanna compete on how poor we can stay." Mm-hmm. 40 00:07:15.628 --> 00:07:30.008 "We wanna compete and get richer because we're competing on, you know, technology and, and focused market and segmentation." Well, of course, that became irresistible to presidents in Latin America and in Africa. 41 00:07:30.008 --> 00:07:38.668 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 'Cause I'd say, "We're not gonna lower the value of the currency, and we're not gonna underpay the people," which a macroeconomist back then would say. Mm-hmm. It's completely opposite. 42 00:07:38.708 --> 00:07:47.548 Let's do the opposite. Yeah. You know, we'll have to focus on value-added industries and exports where so much money comes back, we can

raise the wages. 43 00:07:47.608 --> 00:08:01.088 Now, what, with that new social contract, what that does is it says, "We're going to make our society stronger, not compete on how poor you can keep the people until the society disintegrates." Mm-hmm. I love that. 44 00:08:01.128 --> 00:08:04.188 Y-and you, you wrote a book about this, right? I did. It's called Plowing the Sea. 45 00:08:04.288 --> 00:08:16.748 I published it at Harvard Business School, and that, of course, created more demand for my services 'cause all of a sudden, Ashraf Ghani is calling me, who was then at the World Bank, and later on became President of Afghanistan. 46 00:08:17.108 --> 00:08:30.108 So then I'm working for Ashraf in, in, uh, Kabul, and, uh, yeah, it became very- I have to say, Michael, you're very humble, and you speak very calmly [laughs] about these names that both Tim and-- Tim and I are probably jumping out of our seats just hearing. 47 00:08:30.128 --> 00:08:38.068 Well, I, I-- actually, I wanna tap into that too, David. Gi-give us a scope of the breadth of the number of countries you've worked at. Haiti- It's about twenty-five countries. 48 00:08:38.288 --> 00:08:47.928 Um, mo-most of which were a failure, I, I, I hasten to add, you know, 'cause you go into a difficult situation. Um, I worked for a long time in- Right... 49 00:08:47.968 --> 00:08:58.168 you know, Bolivia and Jamaica and Haiti and, uh, many other places that did not succeed, d-- where I was not helpful. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, I wanna put the blame on me. 50 00:08:58.348 --> 00:09:10.308 I think it means that I wasn't able to find a basis, uh, to improve their receptivity to the, the strategies that I was, that I was recommending. I don't wanna say they weren't courageous enough to make the... 51 00:09:10.568 --> 00:09:18.428 That's what, that's what all the advisors do because most of- Mm... most of us fail most of the time. So, so what happens- Yeah... 52 00:09:18.448 --> 00:09:30.908 is a lot of the Harvard people, the IMF people, the World Bank people, they come in [clears throat] and they lay a big fat document on people. They haven't found the leaders. They haven't found the innovators. 53 00:09:31.328 --> 00:09:38.708 Then when nothing happens, they say, "You're not smart enough" or, "You didn't have the political courage to do the right thing," and they take their check, and they walk away. 54 00:09:39.188 --> 00:09:49.828 And I, uh, again, I think 'cause of the village I lived in for years and the local languages I practiced, I knew that if it wasn't working, I had a lot more to do with it than, than they did. 55 00:09:49.908 --> 00:09:58.808 I just wasn't getting it right. But it's- Well, I love that you're acknowledging your- Yeah... your failures here and- Yeah... and giving that honest, you know, self, self-reflection. 56 00:09:59.428 --> 00:10:06.288 Um- I have a few, few threads here if I can jump in, Tim, real quick. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. I, I love this, Michael. You're so interesting. Uh, I did change management at Genentech. Oh, wow. 57 00:10:06.348 --> 00:10:15.468 It's very difficult to- Yeah... for a huge com-company to get around different ideas. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like the Titanic, and you're trying to steer it a different way, so I completely understand. 58 00:10:15.648 --> 00:10:22.028 I think you need to give yourself more credit for what you've already done. [laughs] Oh. Um, but we are the culmination of our experiences. I think in this modern day- Mm-hmm... 59 00:10:22.048 --> 00:10:27.568 and age, especially with AI, a lot of these newish founders-- I work with a lot of new founders, first-time founders. Yeah. 60 00:10:27.608 --> 00:10:37.928 They think they know everything, but I think what you've told and h-what I'm hearing is, like, the Peace Corps, working in the villages, working boots on the ground, that's led to every, all of your success in building who you are. 61 00:10:38.048 --> 00:10:48.488 I mean, you can't trade that for just something that ChatGPT will say, you know, uh, experience-wise, right? It's, it's true. It, it's true. It has a lot to do with it. Um, I mean, it gave me credibility. 62 00:10:48.648 --> 00:11:00.468 [clears throat] This isn't some guy flying in from Harvard who is gonna tell us what to do. Like, he's lived here in Africa. When I first met Julius Nyerere, the founder of Tanzania, it's a fantastic scene. 63 00:11:00.508 --> 00:11:08.428 He's, he's in the Carlyle Hotel in New York City, you know, where the Beatles stayed and where Marilyn Monroe and John F. Kennedy cheated on everybody. 64 00:11:08.988 --> 00:11:20.768 Um, so I'm at the Carlyle Hotel with Julius Nyerere, and I'm ushered into the room. I've never met him before, [clears throat] and he's on the phone speaking in Swahili, and he thinks I don't understand him. 65 00:11:21.028 --> 00:11:31.848 Why would, why would he? [laughs] But he, he, he- I love this... but he's yelling at somebody, and he's saying, "Don't listen to the Americans. They, they want you to build a democracy and then build a country. 66 00:11:32.108 --> 00:11:34.548 Build a country and then build a democracy." 67 00:11:34.808 --> 00:11:46.028 Which I thought, "Oh my God, I'm sitting in the founder of African socialism, the founder of Tanzania, and I'm listening to him in Swahili yell at somebody else, and I don't know who it is yet." 68 00:11:46.088 --> 00:11:58.568 He gets off the phone, and so I start speaking in Swahili, "Mwalimu," 'cause that was his nickname in, in Tanzania. It means teacher. Mwalimu, and you have to say it that way, not Mwalimu, Mwali- Uh-huh. Mwalimu. 69 00:11:59.068 --> 00:12:10.448 And he, he like, uh, you know, startles. And then I said-- keep going in Swahili. I said, "I heard everything you said. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, you know, hear those things, but who were you talking to?" 70 00:12:11.188 --> 00:12:22.332 He's laughing. He-- 'cause he got so exposed, and he's got this great attitude, and he sits

down on the couch, and he goes, "I was speaking to the president of the Congo." And I was telling him, "Don't, don't, uh- Wow... 71 00:12:22.372 --> 00:12:33.152 don't listen to the Americans on this one because you need to build the country first." And then we started talking. We became ver- we became friends in like moments, um- Yeah... because I had- Wow... 72 00:12:33.192 --> 00:12:44.052 eavesdropped on that conversation, and he thought that was so, so hysterical. You spoke the language. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And idiomatically. I don't speak it, uh, beautiful like he does. He, he actually translated, 73 00:12:45.012 --> 00:12:55.832 uh, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar into Swahili, which is one of the books- Wow. Wow... I read in the little mud hut and st- and learned Swahili. Wow. Oh my gosh. He tr- he was a scholar- Really?... 74 00:12:55.832 --> 00:13:07.052 and he was a poet, and he was amazing person. Um, and so I don't- Incredible... speak it like he does, but I speak it like we call it the KiSwahili cha msituni, the bush Swahili. So I know the ants- Oh... 75 00:13:07.092 --> 00:13:16.712 and the plants and the food and, uh, you know, those kinds of things. And so to speak to someone like him, who was a scholar of Swahili, a true scholar, it was a fantastic moment. 76 00:13:18.052 --> 00:13:26.572 Well, and you speak to it gave you cre- uh, credibility. Yeah. And that's for sure. That's a good story of that, but it also, what, it shaped your perspective. Absolutely. 77 00:13:27.092 --> 00:13:34.272 And, and, and I'll tell you what, even in that very first meeting, I was telling him about my concepts and how to, how we would move forward together, 78 00:13:35.412 --> 00:13:42.132 and he invented socialism in, in all of Africa, certainly in East and Southern Africa. He invented it. 79 00:13:42.192 --> 00:13:53.572 It was called Ujamaa, familyhood, and he brought it back from Europe, and he inspired the whole continent to think about socialist principles. But I was a capitalist. I was talking about exports and wages and all this. 80 00:13:54.032 --> 00:14:04.472 So I'm going through my whole thing with him and I said to him, "Malimu, does this... Um, am I offending you or is this interesting?" And he comes over and he puts his hands on my knees. 81 00:14:04.932 --> 00:14:17.192 We're sitting on the same couch, and he said, "You know, Michael, I'm an old socialist, but I'm not a fool." And he said, "What you're talking about-" Oh... "is the right way going forward." And, and Nyerere- Nice... 82 00:14:17.272 --> 00:14:28.192 was one of the few great leaders in the world who was willing to talk about his own mistakes. And he said, "I made a mistake-" Mm... "with socialism in Africa. I made a mistake the way that-" Wow... 83 00:14:28.192 --> 00:14:32.732 "I built the country." And he said, he said, "What you're talking about is the way forward." 84 00:14:32.772 --> 00:14:45.992 And we worked together for a while, but he died, uh, not too long after that, uh, of, of cancer, and that's why he was in New York in the hotel, because he was seeking cancer treatment, I, I later learned, so. 85 00:14:46.492 --> 00:15:00.432 I have to say, I could sit down with you for hours just to hear these stories 'cause this is the, the texture that you don't read about. You know, we have our w- worldview and view of heads of state based off- Yeah. Mm. 86 00:15:00.432 --> 00:15:07.612 .. of these little snippets, and especially today, really gotten ourselves into putting people- Yeah, yeah... in boxes of- Mm-hmm... 87 00:15:07.672 --> 00:15:18.112 conservative and liberal and socialist and capitalist, and to hear that you're speaking to people like, I know you were an advisor to Fidel Castro. Yeah, yeah. 88 00:15:18.152 --> 00:15:28.432 And, uh, people that, that are thinking more nuanced, they're, they're leaders for a reason. But you're, um, a banker from the United States. Yeah. Right? 89 00:15:28.712 --> 00:15:41.972 Yes, you, you now have a background and a cachet from Africa, but how does that, uh, wind up happening that you actually have a relationship with Castro and, and was there meani- meaningful advising there? 90 00:15:42.452 --> 00:15:51.072 It was going very well. And I'll tell you, I had a lot of respect for the, the Cubans. They, and the later on with the Rwandans, they reminded me of the Cubans. 91 00:15:51.452 --> 00:16:00.972 The Cubans had a very shared vision, un- una vision compartida, a very shared vision of how the world- Mm-hmm... should work. So I go right into Fidel's office. Wow. 92 00:16:01.032 --> 00:16:07.472 Carlos Lage, the vice president, Roberto Robaina, the foreign minister. Wow. The f- all these famous guys. 93 00:16:07.512 --> 00:16:22.272 And I had a s- a canned speech that I use at Harvard and other places where whenever I get to the socialist model, I always say, you know, that this was a form of, uh, economic development that had the least probability of success, and I would hammer it. 94 00:16:22.312 --> 00:16:34.672 The problem with classic socialism is the over-responsibility for the affairs of the average person. And then all of a sudden I'm thinking, "I'm in Castro's office with his entire-" No kidding. [laughs] "... 95 00:16:34.692 --> 00:16:43.952 cabinet, and I'm talking about the problems of Cu- what the hell is my problem?" Don't people go to jail for that? Yeah, people go to jail for that. [laughs] Uh, and, and, and I'm like, "Oh my God." 96 00:16:43.992 --> 00:16:52.092 And I, I, I think I started to shake. Like, I think I had- Wow... a palpable, uh, fear of it all of a sudden. I'm like, "What the hell is my problem?" Yeah. You remembered where you were. 97 00:16:52.092 --> 00:17:02.792 [laughs] And, and, and Lage, the vice president, he comes over and he shakes my hand at the end, and he goes, "You know, I just wanna say thank you because you told us what you thought was the truth today, and nobo- nobody ever does that." 98 00:17:03.272 --> 00:17:14.792

And that's how they received me. Wow. Wow. Well, that's- It's amazing... that, that speaks to why, over and over, you became an advisor to, uh, heads of state and presidents, 'cause you do speak the truth. 99 00:17:15.172 --> 00:17:28.392 Going from all of that background, how then do you wind up going to Rwanda- Yeah... and then basically having a next-level relationship with Rwanda? Yeah. Thank you for asking that. I love Rwanda. 100 00:17:28.452 --> 00:17:36.892 Rwanda gives me hope and courage every day. It's, it's, uh, such, it's just the best place. Um, so I g- Oh... 101 00:17:36.932 --> 00:17:45.292 ga- garnered a certain reputation, and then the president of the World Bank, uh, Jim Wolfensohn, um, said, "There's a new president in Rwanda. 102 00:17:45.332 --> 00:17:57.412 He was just elected, uh, a couple of weeks ago, and h- he's gonna need some of your kind of input." Um, so he introduced me to the president. Um, so I've been with him ever since the beginning, and that was 25 years ago. 103 00:17:57.812 --> 00:18:06.432 Paint a picture too, 'cause at this moment, Rwanda's just coming out of one of the worst genocides in our lifetime. Oh, yeah. Uh, I mean, it was 30 years ago. It was... 104 00:18:06.552 --> 00:18:22.172 And, uh, yeah, so they, they came out of the genocide. They were led by, uh, another person initially, and then Paul Kagame was elected by parliament to, uh, take over, uh, the country in, um, April of 2000. Mm-hmm. 105 00:18:22.232 --> 00:18:34.048 And, uh, you know, people thought he was a bushmen. They thought he would, you know, cause reverse genocide. They thought he was- Yeah... uh, not a competent person. And he was the opposite of all of that. 106 00:18:34.328 --> 00:18:45.628 Th-this is the only head of state in the world trained by the Cuban military and the American military out in, in, in Kansas, and, uh- Wow... the only, only one. Yeah. That's interesting. 107 00:18:45.708 --> 00:18:57.028 He, um, he, uh, ha- the, the parliament in Rwanda has two-thirds women, the highest participation of women in the history of the world. That's incredible. They've had eight to nine percent- Wow... 108 00:18:57.068 --> 00:19:08.268 economic growth every year for twenty-five years. And the capital now- Wow. Wow... is starting to look like Dubai, the skyscrapers and beauty. There, there's not a mango peel- That's incredible... 109 00:19:08.428 --> 00:19:25.128 or a cigarette butt on the, on the, on the ground anywhere in the country, because on the last Saturday of every month, they call it Umuganda, the entire country comes out, and they clear debris from water sources, they build fences for old ladies, they pick up the litter that they, that they... 110 00:19:25.168 --> 00:19:37.628 It's, it's, it's, it's an exquisite country. That's unheard of. It's the Singapore of the jungle. It's the s- it's the, it's the Switzerland of the heart of Africa. It's, it's an amazing place. Michael, I, I apologize. 111 00:19:37.688 --> 00:19:47.828 My only [laughs] my only recollection of Rwanda is actually from Hotel Rwanda. Yeah. Right. Well, Hotel Rwanda was- Right... filmed in South Africa, and almost nothing about it is the truth. 112 00:19:47.848 --> 00:19:55.428 [laughs] So I'm f- I'm very down- Yeah... I'm very down on that c- Yeah... on that movie. That's good to know. But I think that's for, for most of us and most of our audience- Mm-hmm... 113 00:19:55.468 --> 00:20:09.048 we, we, we picture that has- Yeah... past 'cause it was such a brutal past- Yeah... and so in our face. And then, you know, I, I've traveled also. I actually went, did a PBS frontline with President Sirleaf- Oh, sure... 114 00:20:09.048 --> 00:20:17.028 who became the first female president- Yeah... of an African country and was in, staying at her compound- Yeah... right after they were coming out of war. Yeah. 115 00:20:17.028 --> 00:20:25.628 You know, so I've seen these kind of tides turned, but what you're speaking to is that Rwanda feels like it's something special- Yeah... has happened there. 116 00:20:25.688 --> 00:20:38.028 It, it w- it was a portal into everything that was wrong with humanity, and now it's a portal into everything that is good. And by the way, I call Ellen Johnson Sirleaf Ellen because she was my first boss as a banker. 117 00:20:38.608 --> 00:20:46.668 She was my first bo- [laughs] Oh, no way. I'm serious. I'm serious. Of course you guys are connected. Who don't you know? [laughs] And she w- Yeah. She was my first boss. Um, yep. 118 00:20:46.968 --> 00:20:55.688 I hear sh- she's, she's a, she's a difficult boss, right? She's a tough lady. I remember the day that I was leaving, she- She's the Iron Lady. The Iron Lady. Yeah. That's what, that's what, how she's known. Yeah. 119 00:20:55.728 --> 00:21:04.368 She's the Iron Lady. Yeah. That's how you become president of, uh, Liberia. Yeah. She's, she's, she's tough, uh, slogging, that's for sure. Yeah. But she won the Nobel Peace Prize- Wow... 120 00:21:04.688 --> 00:21:15.688 and she has done good for women- Yes, she has... all across Africa. But, uh, I have stories there too. [laughs] I'm sure. Exactly. That's why we said we have to have like ten episodes with you. 121 00:21:16.188 --> 00:21:24.848 Um, so President Kagame, this is a guy that has some controversy around him- Yeah, yeah. We can talk-... as well, right? Can you actually... M-maybe that's where we start with. Yeah. 122 00:21:24.868 --> 00:21:35.648 Like, is there some controversy around him? Is it merited? You know, the controversy exists because the people who caused the genocide 123 00:21:36.648 --> 00:21:49.508 and the people who stood idly by while the genocide occurred, which was a lot of Americans, feel like that if they could make him into some sort of a bad guy, it will absolve them of their own complicity in the genocide. 124 00:21:50.808 --> 00:22:01.128 Mm-hmm. So- Yeah... so America could have stopped the genocide. Some military friends of mine who,

uh, took to Rwanda once said, "I-if we had two F-15s and a hundred Army Rangers, we could have stopped this in a day." 125 00:22:02.408 --> 00:22:13.408 But we didn't- Right... we didn't get involved because France was a NATO ally and because we had just lost people in Black Hawk Down in Somalia, and President Clinton didn't want another episode like that. 126 00:22:14.088 --> 00:22:26.048 I was in the room- Mm-hmm... at the St. Regis Hotel in Aspen, Colorado when President Bill Clinton and President Paul Kagame met each other. Wow. And, and, and the President Clinton- Wow... apologized to him. 127 00:22:26.448 --> 00:22:33.228 I was in the bar at the St. Regis Hotel- Really? Wow... in Aspen, Colorado. Wow. And Clinton apologized, and he got weepy about it. 128 00:22:33.528 --> 00:22:39.748 And he's gone on to say it was the greatest mistake of his presidency, and that's a guy who made a few pretty critical mistakes. Wow. 129 00:22:40.108 --> 00:22:47.908 Well, obviously, th- those types of intimate experiences then were able to shape and, and gain your appreciation of Kagame and... 130 00:22:48.068 --> 00:22:59.608 But how do we then go from you being a presidential advisor to now being a co-founder of a pharmaceutical company? Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure [laughs] it's even clear in my head. 131 00:22:59.708 --> 00:23:01.308 [laughs] I was like, "What, what just happened?" 132 00:23:01.408 --> 00:23:17.108 Um, years before COVID, years, like two thousand and seventeen, President Kagame and I were having a dinner at the Kennedy School of Government here in, in Cambridge, and he, and he was saying, "We don't have this generative capacity to protect ourselves." 133 00:23:17.128 --> 00:23:27.628 And I said, "We should start a biotech, and we should develop our own drugs." And he, and I, and I said, "Do you want me to do that?" And he said, "Yeah, I want you to do that." It was that, that trivial. 134 00:23:27.888 --> 00:23:32.088 That, that simple. That simple. So but, but where did you get the, the initial concept? I love that. Yeah. 135 00:23:32.168 --> 00:23:43.108 So I've been an investor in biotechs for about thirty years, and so I know everybody in Boston, and, um, I knew where the scientists were. And well then, we started the company before COVID. 136 00:23:44.328 --> 00:23:55.768 And even when nice people like the Danes and the Canadians decided not to give enough drugs to Africa, w-we were already up and running, and we could produce our own- Mm-hmm... COVID things in our own labs. Wow. 137 00:23:55.788 --> 00:24:05.828 Yeah, but that just strengthened our, our fortitude to do this. So we're focused on, uh, tuberculosis and NTMs, and, uh, we have an HIV vaccine, RSV vaccine. 138 00:24:06.088 --> 00:24:12.728 We have about eight or nine vaccines and three, uh, uh, therapeutics, and they're all working. And, and in fact, I could tell you- Hmm... 139 00:24:12.768 --> 00:24:24.548 that we've put our TB drug into very sick TB patients with outstanding results in safety, which is the hard thing with TB, and in efficacy. 140 00:24:25.128 --> 00:24:36.868 And so we, we have, we have a capa-- a generative capacity now in Rwanda to produce the, uh, vaccines and the drugs that, that we might need if the world doesn't help us. So, so it's, it's, it's fantastic. 141 00:24:37.028 --> 00:24:47.760 We're a clinical company. And we're in our f- our D round of f-funding, and it's African majority owned and run. How are you choosing what you're tackling within medicine? 142 00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:59.060 So we have a humanitarian effort, which is like TB and, uh, Lassa fever, which is a hemorrhagic disorder in West Africa that kills virtually every pregnant woman who gets it. 143 00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:05.600 Um, then we have a for-profit effort, like an RSV vaccine, a mumps vaccine, and things like that. 144 00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:19.780 And so we're mixing that [coughs] if we can make a lot of money with certain things, we could take that money and put it into the humanitarian effort and distribute those things, you know, at cost or below cost, uh, to, to the people who really need them. 145 00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:30.980 I also am reading about tuberculosis is, is still the- Yeah... number one killer in the world. It is. Right? For- It is... w- and we don't think about that in the United States- No... right? 146 00:25:31.340 --> 00:25:41.120 Even though I grew up in Scranton, a couple of miles away from one of the biggest tuberculosis sanitariums in America, because TB had been- Wow... a problem historically. 147 00:25:41.540 --> 00:25:54.800 I mean, TB killed Henry David Thoreau and Mimi Eisenhower. Um- Mm... one out of every seven people who ever lived died from TB, and one out of every four in the United- Wow... States in the nineteenth century. 148 00:25:55.220 --> 00:26:02.460 So it's a terrible disease. Um, and it's about to get worse because of American and other people's cutbacks in global healthcare. 149 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:10.840 TB is gonna go from one point two five million deaths last year to about one point five million deaths this year, and that's because we've- Wow... 150 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:19.780 cut back our health budgets in order to buy, uh, bullets and airplanes to wage war. Mm-hmm. I actually just-- I wasn't even searching. 151 00:26:19.840 --> 00:26:29.240 I was fed an article right before this conversation about tuberculosis in- Yeah, yeah... the United States. We're starting to see it in urban centers again. 152 00:26:29.560 --> 00:26:39.800 It's entirely treatable with a six to nine-month regime if you take your oral tablets every day. But you need to get the tablets every day. You need to take them. 153 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:51.980 You start to get the toxic effects and get very, very ill, and then you stop taking them. Mm-hmm. And that's what creates the drug-resistant brand of TB. This is a huge problem in Africa- Yeah... 154 00:26:52.020 -->

00:27:04.740 and in Asia, where sometimes people are coming from villages. There's a whole 'nother level of dynamic with that. A-a-absolutely. Russian prisons is a, a choke point. Um, Haitian UN camps- Hmm... 155 00:27:04.800 --> 00:27:16.340 where many African countries, it's endemic, but also it, it is in some parts of Asia. Dirty little secret, the embarrassment of Canada is that the-- it's endemic to the entire north of Canada. 156 00:27:16.780 --> 00:27:25.320 All the, all the Native populations- Really?... um, are, are- Oh, wow... being killed by tuberculosis right now. It, it, it's everywhere. I didn't know that. Yeah. Wow. 157 00:27:25.420 --> 00:27:34.100 Um, a lot of the big pharmaceutical companies in the world are not going after this problem, right? Can you- Yeah... w-why are they not going after this problem, and why are you deciding to? 158 00:27:34.120 --> 00:27:48.680 Because of the fifty or so insurance jurisdictions in the world, um, forty-eight of them don't have insurance, and, and so there's no one to pay the big pharmaceutical companies for their effort. And TB is hard. 159 00:27:48.800 --> 00:28:00.900 The bacilli are inside something called the granuloma, which is necrotic. There's no blood flow. It's practically dead tissue, and getting medicines into it is really, really hard. And so it's expensive- Mm-hmm... 160 00:28:01.300 --> 00:28:10.360 to research. It's expensive- Yeah... to make, and there's no profit in it. They have laid off of it to, to their eternal shame. So a lot of them will hear this 'cause- Yeah... 161 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:17.220 I'll post this on something where, you know, scientists see this, this kind of podcast. Uh, but it's to their eternal shame. 162 00:28:17.500 --> 00:28:27.280 Even people who came up through the medical schools as infectious disease doctors and now run some of the big global pharmaceuticals, they won't touch it because there's no profit in it. 163 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:35.260 The a- the average cancer product- Yeah... has a ninety-five percent profit margin, so only five percent cost, ninety-five percent profit. 164 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:48.560 In TB, it'd still be fifty or sixty percent profit, but that's not big enough for them to want to, to, to do, to do this. So David is nodding up and down 'cause he knows what big pharma- Yeah... how they operate. 165 00:28:48.580 --> 00:28:56.720 A million things to say in response. Yeah. This is all David's fault, by the way. This is it. This is- [laughs] I'm, I'm trying not to be part of this- This is an intervention-... issue, Michael... David. 166 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:06.300 This is a secret intervention. Um- Yeah. No, I, I, I completely agree. I, I worked at a place called Global Blood Therapeutics. Uh, I've worked in sickle cell disease most of my career- Mm... 167 00:29:06.360 --> 00:29:15.320 um, starting at the, the site. I actually enrolled patients, worked with patients, um, at the clinic. My heart's with the patients- Yeah... has always been. So Global Blood did something very unique. 168 00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:18.900 Ted Love, he came out of retirement to, to run the company. 169 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:29.340 He said we would eventually, no matter what, you know, charge the, the US the bulk of the cost and actually provide, uh, as much as we can freely or at very subsidized cost to- Nice... 170 00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:35.840 to Africa, where it's obvious that it's much needed. Nice. I love that model. I think that's what we need- Yeah. Yeah... more of, and I love what you're doing. 171 00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:40.740 I'd love to dive a little bit deeper into what is a process that you guys go through to get a drug approved. 172 00:29:40.840 --> 00:29:51.440 What we've done with our drugs is we, we consult with the American FDA, and we make sure we're doing things ways that they would approve. But we're doing the actual trial in TB in South Africa. 173 00:29:51.840 --> 00:30:07.240 So we're going through a consultation process in Washington and then the real review process in, in, in South Africa, all the time keeping our eyes on America because as you do a phase two, you've got to come back and do trials in America and all, all around the world. 174 00:30:07.780 --> 00:30:22.480 Um, I'm very happy to say that the National Institute of Health, they have a subset called the Vaccine Research Institute, and they're huge supporters of ours with advice and guidance, and sometimes they do a little bit of work. 175 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:32.940 So even though you hear about the terrible healthcare cutbacks at the FDA and the, and the NIH, we found them to be incredible to work with and very encouraging. That's great to hear. 176 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:46.300 And part of that is 'cause we're African, and they think that replicating this model of African ownership, why can't we have a pain management biotech in Nigeria? Why can't we have a cancer institute in Botswana? 177 00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:59.808 The-- Could this be a model for something else? And we're, we're making it work so far. I need, I need to, I need to make sure to mention Dr. Daryl Drummond, Dr. Sachin Maralkar, Dr. Dmitry Karputin, and so many others. 178 00:31:00.168 --> 00:31:09.128 I'm kinda taking credit for their innovations. These are the guys... This is your team, though. This is the team. But they come into work early in the morning. The innovation is theirs. 179 00:31:09.188 --> 00:31:19.188 I've created, uh, the funding and the context and the connections and things like that, but, um, I'm not much good to the company as a scientist, that's for damn sure. 180 00:31:19.268 --> 00:31:23.888 Well, I mean, in much smaller missions than yours, uh, there, there... it always takes a team, right? Yeah. 181 00:31:23.928 --> 00:31:32.488 And considering the complexity of everything that you are dealing with here, breakthroughs in the world's most infectious disease- Yeah. 182 00:31:32.548 --> 00:31:44.988

And you're also working in Rwanda and trying to create a new system, a pro- public/private- You're right. P- yeah... ownership system. Yeah. PPP, public private partnership. Yep. Yeah. 183 00:31:45.508 --> 00:32:01.428 And so it's one thing to have this vision. How do you make this work- Yeah... and last? You don't let investors choose you, you choose investors. So what I have is nine or 10 philanthrocapitalists, you know. 184 00:32:01.728 --> 00:32:11.548 They wanna make money. They've made money by working hard their whole career, but they also believe in something else. They believe in taking a little bit extra chance for the global good. Mm-hmm. 185 00:32:11.748 --> 00:32:22.508 So I've been very blessed by those kinds of folks. Um, the people of Rwanda have put a lot of money into us, and that's why they have the majority- Mm-hmm... ownership of, of the company. 186 00:32:23.088 --> 00:32:38.268 And, um, and by keeping our costs low and by being efficient in our process, which most big pharmas are not, we can actually do this cheaper. Like we got, we got through our phase one now in TB for about $25 million. 187 00:32:38.968 --> 00:32:49.968 If, if you ask David's colleagues, it could be 40, 50, 60, $90 million to do the same work. Mm-hmm. And, um, because they don't know what they're doing, and everybody has a big ego. 188 00:32:50.448 --> 00:33:03.848 And, you know, we have, we have, you know, a very small decision-making unit. If we have a problem, Daryl and I sit at a table. We address the problem, it's addressed, and now we move. We don't have committees. 189 00:33:04.328 --> 00:33:16.488 We don't have layers of bloated salaries. Um, we don't go off on crazy things that, you know, might make a fortune but usually don't. Uh, so it's, it's a whole different ethos. 190 00:33:16.728 --> 00:33:24.928 It's- We, we, we- Michael, it's, it's so fragmented in the US, all the different pharmas. Everyone's trying to get their own piece to compete with each other- Yeah... doing the same thing, so I, I completely agree. Yeah. 191 00:33:25.348 --> 00:33:33.128 Yeah. Yeah. And we're, we're in Waltham. We're not in the center of Boston. We're in Waltham, Massachusetts, and we're in a inexpensive building, and we're on the first floor. 192 00:33:33.468 --> 00:33:45.048 So everywhere we can look to save money, we do that. But what you're creating with tuberculosis too, it's a technology- Yeah... right? It's a, it's a, it's a delivery technology that may have other ramifications. 193 00:33:45.088 --> 00:34:01.048 Big time. Big time. 'Cause we can do something that none of the big companies have figured out how to do yet, which is we can target and bind our medicines, our vaccines, to very specific places in the human body. 194 00:34:01.888 --> 00:34:13.228 So what that does is it allows us to use a smaller dose, which brings down costs. Mm-hmm. It allows us not to have side effects on our medicines because they don't float systemically in the bloodstream.

195 00:34:13.468 --> 00:34:26.228 They just go right to the problem. And the, that's, that's what we-- that's our competitive advantage. We can target and bind. It lowers costs, it lowers side effects, and it creates greater efficacy. 196 00:34:26.408 --> 00:34:34.708 It's very interesting. So your cust- your, your company is based in the US, and then you run your trials in, in Rwanda, and then you give it back to Rwanda. How, how does that all work then? 197 00:34:34.788 --> 00:34:47.768 So we're, we're, we have two, uh, good-sized labs and offices, one here in Boston area and the other in San Francisco. So we built the labs around where the people we want to work with live. 198 00:34:48.488 --> 00:34:56.768 We, we didn't, we didn't build something and then attract people here. We found the best people. "Where do you wanna live?" "We wanna live in San Francisco." "Okay, we're gonna build you a lab." They're very happy. 199 00:34:56.828 --> 00:34:58.608 That's one of the reasons they've stayed with us. 200 00:34:58.788 --> 00:35:15.688 The other thing is that we have partnerships and validation from the National Institute of Health, the Gates Foundation, the European Investment Bank, from the N- NIH V- VRC people, and from CEPI, which is the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness. 201 00:35:16.068 --> 00:35:28.008 They've given us more money in grants than we've ever raised privately because they believe in our mission and our technology. They're also charmed finally by us being African. 202 00:35:28.708 --> 00:35:38.888 Because when I first went to them and I said, "Well, we're this African company, but we have no IP yet, and we..." They would laugh at us, like literally not return phone calls. Now we show the data 203 00:35:39.988 --> 00:35:47.388 and, and we're African, and it's the most charming thing they've ever heard. So they're writing, just standing up and writing checks to us. 204 00:35:47.488 --> 00:35:54.788 So the science is starting to show, and things are g- starting to get, uh, uh, I'm not gonna say easy, but there's starting to be a clearer path now. 205 00:35:54.848 --> 00:36:04.608 I would say, I'd say the way to put it is that, um, that we squeezed a lot of risks out of the system now, and now it's about execute, execute, execute. Mm-hmm. 206 00:36:04.628 --> 00:36:18.328 You know, w- five years ago, we didn't know if the science would work. Well, t- that's, that's been clarified. It works. So now- Mm-hmm... how do you get into trials at the right time? How do you pick the right partners? 207 00:36:18.968 --> 00:36:29.308 We wanna do manufacturing in Senegal. We wanna do trials in South Africa. We, we've raised our money from the Caribbean to Europe, all across North America. 208 00:36:29.988 --> 00:36:41.768 Um, and, and we did something really good, which is we didn't, we didn't raise a lot of money at first. We raised money after every scientific milestone has been achieved. So what does that do? Mm-hmm. 209 00:36:41.848 --> 00:36:53.068 By raising it that way, you keep the valuations going up and up and up every time you raise money, and that keeps the Rwandan people in charge because their initial investment hasn't been diluted. 210 00:36:54.848 --> 00:37:02.268 Well, and that's actually perfect timing that you brought that up. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're the first African-owned pharmaceutical company? 211 00:37:02.308 --> 00:37:13.868 Yeah, we s- we, we think we're the, the only African biotech that is doing discovery of new drugs and will be vertically integrated into trials and manufa- We think that. We're... 212 00:37:14.328 --> 00:37:26.248 I, I hesitate to say we are, but I ha- I haven't found anyone else- Right... who's doing it. There's 14 million citizens that are shareholders, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does that actually- Going through that... 213 00:37:26.248 --> 00:37:35.208 work in practice, though? So the, the 14 million citizens have universal education, universal healthcare, and they all have a pension plan. They all have a pension plan. Mm. 214 00:37:35.588 --> 00:37:43.788 And it's run by the Rwanda Social Security Board, who is about two and a half billion dollars. So even though it's a poor country, there's some rich organizations. 215 00:37:44.328 --> 00:37:53.408 So we're about 1% of their, of their assets, very tiny amount. Um, and they give us the money to keep going. 216 00:37:53.948 --> 00:38:10.228 And, uh, and then I have the trippy kind of thing that I get to say, which is I'm driving down in, you know, Land Rover, you know, Land Cruiser going through the savanna and the veld, and I see an old woman, barefoot maybe, pile of potatoes on her head, and I get to say, "That's my boss." 217 00:38:11.368 --> 00:38:23.488 You know? Mm. [laughs] That's amazing. So here, here's a question, though, you know, for our audience members that are, are thinking about this. Um, you know, there's plenty of corruption here in the United States. 218 00:38:23.888 --> 00:38:29.448 We hear about a plan that's happening like this, and we'd probably be championing it. But we hear about it in Africa. Mm-hmm. 219 00:38:29.488 --> 00:38:39.768 We hear about it in Rwanda, a place where we don't know and a place where we think of corruption. What do you s- say to those audience members that are having those thoughts? It's a, it's a terrible problem. 220 00:38:39.868 --> 00:38:50.608 Not in Africa, but like I gave a talk at Harvard Medical School a few weeks ago, and all they... They didn't wanna know about the medicine. They wanted to know about how much I owned of the company. 221 00:38:50.888 --> 00:39:01.248 They wanna know who's on the board of- Right... directors. They wanna know what controls- Mm-hmm... 'cause they just assume it's a lot of corruption. And I'm embarrassed for them, but I also kind of understand. 222 00:39:01.568 --> 00:39:06.408 So here, here's, here's my s- here's my answer. We're only six or seven years old. 223 00:39:06.688 -->

00:39:20.748 We've been audited, uh, three times by American public, uh, accounting firms, uh, twice in Africa, and once by SEPI, the three and a half billion dollar global fund, and nobody ever asked us- Mm-hmm... to, to audit us. 224 00:39:21.368 --> 00:39:31.728 I put the audits in place with PricewaterhouseCoopers, for example, and said- Mm-hmm... "Find anything that we can do better. Find anything that's wrong 'cause I wanna publish the results." Amazing. 225 00:39:31.788 --> 00:39:42.888 So we have, we have to do things. Well, the optics are clearly important in this. A- absolutely, 'cause people are looking for me to learn, you know, I own 80% of the company when I own 7%, you know? 226 00:39:42.928 --> 00:39:55.568 And David will tell you, 7% as a founder of the company's, uh, you know, uh, is, is, is not much. Much. It's not much. Yeah. So... And I have to say, Jim, I think [laughs] in, in America we have just as much. 227 00:39:55.608 --> 00:40:02.588 It's just probably hidden in the shadows- We're, we're just better-... for corruption. We're just better- For sure... at it in America. [laughs] Yeah. No, that's, that's- Yeah... 228 00:40:02.708 --> 00:40:09.688 100% the case, but I mean, there's a real reason why, Michael, you've had to really take the optics into- Yeah... consideration with every step- Yeah... 229 00:40:09.708 --> 00:40:12.808 of the way, with fundraising and- Well, and then, and then on our board of directors. 230 00:40:12.848 --> 00:40:26.128 You know, our founders were Donald Kaberuka, who was the president of the African Development Bank and the chairman of The Global Fund in Switzerland that manages money for the whole world of infectious disease. Wow. 231 00:40:26.168 --> 00:40:40.348 And another founder, uh, director of this was Paul Farmer, maybe the most famous physician in the world, a university professor at Harvard Medical School and, uh, you know, a l- a living, a living saint until he passed away three years ago. 232 00:40:40.548 --> 00:40:48.428 Well, he's definitely a, a, a legend in global health, and so he was a real actual personal- Oh, yeah... personal influence for you. Oh, yeah, yeah. 233 00:40:48.468 --> 00:40:57.008 No, we went to Paul early on, and we said, "You know, we wanna do this right, and what do we focus on?" And several feet away from where he, uh, ultimately passed away, we were... 234 00:40:57.208 --> 00:41:10.788 We, Daryl and I had a meeting with him, and he said, "Focus on the toxicity because that's what's keeping people from continuing on the drug, and focus on the entire value chain," you know? Like how- Mm-hmm... 235 00:41:10.848 --> 00:41:23.828 this thing gets approved and regulated and manufactured and distributed because what the geniuses at the global pharmas do is they focus on a big fancy drug that, you know, kinda works, but it's toxic. 236 00:41:23.888 --> 00:41:30.008 It can't be manufactured. It can't be transported to Africa, and they forget the whole thing. But our

guys- Mm... 237 00:41:30.068 --> 00:41:40.948 being older and experienced, they've developed drugs before from concept to bedside and gone public with their ideas and made billions of dollars. They know how to do it. 238 00:41:41.648 --> 00:41:56.808 So I, I, I, I opted for the well-rounded, experienced track record person with no drama versus the post-doc genius- Yeah... disruptor who turns out to be disruptive in more ways than you're counting on. You know? 239 00:41:57.708 --> 00:42:04.588 Honestly- Man, there's so much-... sounds like, sounds like a place I would wanna work [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Well, you're invited. Ideal Pharma. [laughs] You're invited to apply. I, uh, I like you already. 240 00:42:04.788 --> 00:42:15.048 [laughs] Again, there's so many things that we could be going into here. We are looking at our... needing to wrap up time-wise, so this is a big bet that you've made on many levels. 241 00:42:15.208 --> 00:42:25.368 We're talking to some founders that are making a bet on something like tuberculosis, the world's most infectious disease, but you're making a bet on a system. What does success look like for you? 242 00:42:25.388 --> 00:42:42.368 Success looks like in, in less than 36 months, so coming up fast, we have a monetization where we return all the capital to the ladies with the potatoes on their head times 50. Mm. That's, that's, that's success. Wow. 243 00:42:42.428 --> 00:42:43.368 Times 50. 244 00:42:43.788 --> 00:43:01.856 L- likewise, we have the global standard of care for tuberculosis and a couple of other things so that, so that when someone gets sick with TB They go to a community health worker who sits them down, gives them an injection, an infusion, 245 00:43:02.776 --> 00:43:09.756 and they take another one 30 days later, possibly another one 30 days after that, and they're cured. That, that's- Mm... 246 00:43:09.816 --> 00:43:19.916 so it's a financial return to the average citizen of Rwanda, and it's a global standard of care in tuberculosis with a whole pipeline of interesting things behind that. 247 00:43:20.156 --> 00:43:30.336 You've done so many interesting things in your life and, and dealt with so many issues in, in so many countries. Is this, is this the, the, the hallmark thing that you're trying to do right now? 248 00:43:30.476 --> 00:43:40.616 What it is, what it is, uh, Tim, is the thing that makes everything else make sense. [laughs] Mm. You know? The culmination. [laughs] The culmination. 249 00:43:40.696 --> 00:43:51.116 If you- If I, if, if, if I'm just speaking personally, yeah, it's the thing that makes everything else finally make sense. Hmm. I love that. There something tangible you can see. 250 00:43:51.176 --> 00:44:01.676 'Cause when, when I asked you what success was, you went right to the image of the people- Yeah... the people that you're- Yeah... working for, which are the Rwandan- Yeah... citizens and the, the agricultural farmers. 251 00:44:02.296 --> 00:44:12.436 So you, you, you have their faces in, in your mind as far as that is gonna be success of- Oh, yeah... helping them out. Yeah, for sure. It goes back to Peace Corps, where we started. 252 00:44:13.076 --> 00:44:23.476 You know, you come into my kitchen and you want a glass of water, I give you a, a peanut butter or, or jelly jar to drink out of. Uh, you know- [laughs]... we're, we're, we're nothing fancy. 253 00:44:24.756 --> 00:44:36.556 Well, and, and actually that's an important point too, because [clears throat] a little bit in the way you pictured it, we could be also misconstrued that it's almost like, okay, that's Social Security, socialism handout. 254 00:44:37.036 --> 00:44:49.996 But what you are doing is much more than that, right? The, what you've identified in other, uh, developing countries is they've made their money off the back of minerals that are- Yeah... 255 00:44:50.176 --> 00:45:02.116 exploited by [clears throat] outside companies. You're trying to grow industry from within Rwanda that's gonna last well beyond your lifetime and well beyond Kagame's lifetime. Is that right? Yeah. 256 00:45:02.156 --> 00:45:19.676 I mean, if you, if we could build a generative capacity for, for these amazing scientists in the diaspora, these Rwandan scientists in France and America, to come home and not just practice in another big, dumb company, but to be generative with their own solutions. 257 00:45:19.896 --> 00:45:33.296 You know, no one's gonna remember my name or Daryl's name, but the fact that that- Hmm... might continue after us, that's, that's a very exciting proposition. We talk about it every day. That's, that's a legacy- Yeah... 258 00:45:33.336 --> 00:45:43.016 right there. And, and Michael, I think what you said earlier about advising and, you know, w- sometimes it's a hit, hit, sometimes it's a miss, I think everything's added up to a giant hit. Oh, that's nice of you to say. 259 00:45:43.016 --> 00:45:50.696 So I think you should feel free to agree to that. [laughs] I, I hope and I believe you're right. We- A little bit more time will tell. Yeah, this does, it comes full circle. 260 00:45:50.936 --> 00:46:01.656 You've had a, you've had a bumpy road like all of us, and, but hopefully we're wishing you the best for success on this one on so many levels, 'cause, I mean, not only are you gonna have a huge impact in 261 00:46:02.636 --> 00:46:14.176 tuberculosis and on Rwanda, but this could be a, a whole new- Yeah... model and of, of, of industry, private-public partnership of taking on some of the world's greatest he- health challenges. 262 00:46:14.216 --> 00:46:29.276 I really, I really think that's going to happen. Wow. [laughs] Every time. I know, right? Every one of our episodes. W- yeah. I, I, I think... 263 00:46:29.696 --> 00:46:41.156 So first off, he is just way too humble. I mean, th- this guy does, he's sat with world leaders. Deep influence. We didn't even get, uh, to talk about more of his experience with Nelson Mandela.

Yeah. 264 00:46:41.196 --> 00:46:53.196 He's been a, he's been a- Yeah... actual influential advisor to many of the people that we know from history books or news. [laughs] But the, the crazy part, and this is super... Uh, uh, I think there's a thread here. 265 00:46:53.556 --> 00:47:00.496 These people that have been huge change makers, like N- Man- Mandela, right? Yeah. People that have, you know, transformed the world and make the world a better place- Mm-hmm... 266 00:47:00.576 --> 00:47:10.496 they've needed people to get there, and I think- For sure... he being a part of it, right, uh, all these folks h- probably have some form of Michael Fairbanks on their side to, to- Oh, yeah... 267 00:47:10.516 --> 00:47:18.036 help them get there, and I think that's the story we're trying to tell, like before the cure. Like, all these people trying to do innovative things, they didn't do it by themselves, right? No. 268 00:47:18.076 --> 00:47:27.396 There's, there's a story, there's a team, there's a, there's something that led there, right? There's always key teams. I mean, you can liken it to some of the, the great climbers in the world, where there was- Hmm... 269 00:47:27.436 --> 00:47:35.556 the Sherpa right behind carrying all their stuff and did- Oh... the exact same climb, right? That's a great analogy. Yeah. There's always a team w- a team there. 270 00:47:35.576 --> 00:47:47.756 And Michael, you know, he's been one of those not loudly making himself known, like the, the, the- Yeah... rest of us don't know the w- name Michael Fairbanks, but he's, he's been deeply influential in history. 271 00:47:48.356 --> 00:48:00.516 But what I love more than anything is him having a background as a banker working IMF. I mean, I'm a reader of Noam Chomsky and Eduardo Galeano and all of these- [laughs]... 272 00:48:00.536 --> 00:48:14.456 you know, historians that talk about some of the legacy of the IMF, but he appears to me to have a real genuine interest in, let's just put it simply, doing the right thing. Hmm. Mm-hmm. 273 00:48:14.496 --> 00:48:28.156 You know, not exploiting- S- saying the right things. [laughs] Saying the truth. Saying the, saying the truth, trying to have a tuberculosis drug be free for Africans, for Rwandans. Yeah. Yeah. 274 00:48:28.236 --> 00:48:45.276 And going to make the wealthier countries pay for them. And you see it in some of the decision-making where all of his advising really has genuinely been about building industry that's not the exploited industry. 275 00:48:45.336 --> 00:48:56.756 It's not- Yes... coal, it's not- Right... gold, where companies just come in, hire people for cheap, and take it out. Even when we're talking about electrification, lithium- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... cobalt. 276 00:48:57.396 --> 00:49:06.536 Major, major- It's always an easy way out... you know, issues with human- Yeah... rights r- work. So he's, he's been, throughout his whole career, saying, "Step away from that. 277 00:49:06.796 --> 00:49:19.572 Let's develop other things c- that can actually holistically build industry from the ground up and can-" His number one passion late, uh, the last 20 years has been with Kagame and Rwanda. Yeah. 278 00:49:19.632 --> 00:49:29.952 And they've already had impact, but what an impact this would be, right? Yeah. It's huge. Honestly, I didn't even know about it until you brought him up as a, as a person. 279 00:49:30.112 --> 00:49:40.172 And so that's why he, he, he for sure is the only biotech doing this in the world. Wow. Um, where it's partly owned by, by the people, and he's flipping the, the model on its head. Is an interesting thing. He's got... 280 00:49:40.232 --> 00:49:50.012 I- it's a constant battle for him. At the end of the day, he might be- Mm-hmm... a Rwandan citizen, but he's a white guy from Scranton, right? Yeah, yeah. And so- Can- can't get more stereotypes than that. Y- yeah. 281 00:49:50.132 --> 00:50:10.512 Well, when you go into a room and talk and, and whether he's speaking to the Rwandans, he's gotta prove himself, or whether he's speaking to financiers or the Bill Gates Foundation or whoever that is, there's a constant uphill battle of what he has to prove, but he seems to be putting the pieces together and ma- ma- they're making incredible progress. 282 00:50:11.012 --> 00:50:27.312 Yeah. I'm, I'm super excited, especially to follow up with him in the future. Or season two on the road, Rwanda. [laughs] [gentle music] This is Before the Cure. I'm Timothy Wheeler, joined by my co-host, David Tsai. 283 00:50:28.312 --> 00:50:41.972 Together, we explore innovation in healthcare before outcomes are certain. Because progress doesn't happen in isolation. It takes trust, it takes courage, and it takes community. 284 00:50:42.912 --> 00:50:55.972 We're just beginning, so stay close at beforethecure.org. Because at the end of the day, we're all patients, and we can do better. [upbeat music]