رونوشت کامل Beer Learning and Language with Scott Fielder and Chris Crowe

taste like that. 00:05:48.569 --> 00:05:56.889 That beer for me was New Belgium's Les Terroirs, which is a moderately famous American sour beer that's dry hopped. 00:05:57.290 --> 00:06:08.009 And I just remember before that point I wasn't particularly into proper service methods or sensory of beers. 00:06:08.090 --> 00:06:12.170 You know, it was just an experiential, purely enjoyment-based kind of thing. 00:06:12.329 --> 00:06:30.970 And I poured that beer into a glass and kind of the lights went on, being able to smell it uh in a slightly different environment, drinking a beer, not just to drink for purely enjoyment, but kind of like to uh to immerse yourself in all the different aroma and flavor capabilities that the beer has. 00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:54.730 And you know, that was 13 years ago or so, and I was already pretty full on beer nerd at that point, but not not in not in terms of like compartmentalizing it and fragmenting out all of the different components, and so I just remember never thinking beer could taste like that, and I wanted to know why it tasted like that, more so than just find the next beer that tastes like that. 00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:57.050 And for me, that kicked off the why. 00:06:57.290 --> 00:07:04.490 And most beers since then I wanted to know how they were made and why they were made that way, and why they tasted the way that they do. 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:05.850 Scott, how about you? 00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:10.730 I had a very, very similar experience in terms of it. 00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:17.769 There was a singular beer that just completely in the heavens parted, didn't know beer could taste like this. 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:26.410 Uh, I'll try and keep the story short, but basically running a hospitality event that had drink tickets, we had a bunch of tickets left over. 00:07:26.569 --> 00:07:29.850 Uh, we decided we wanted to try some beer from their bottle list. 00:07:30.009 --> 00:07:33.689 We picked out, uh, I said, What about this Rodenbach vintage beer? 00:07:33.769 --> 00:07:35.610 Vintage is a cool word in wine. 00:07:35.689 --> 00:07:37.050 Why don't we we get that? 00:07:37.209 --> 00:07:41.610 This is 2018, they bring out a bottle of 2011 Rodenbach vintage. 00:07:41.769 --> 00:07:46.410 None uh everybody is thinking this is just gonna taste terrible, right? 00:07:46.490 --> 00:07:49.610 Like what what beer tastes good after seven years? 00:07:49.930 --> 00:07:58.329 And obviously, looking back on it, had been cellared perfectly, uh, totally uh piqued my curiosity, like I never could have imagined. 00:07:58.650 --> 00:08:16.810 And really, where it to me kind of became uh this thing that I knew was gonna be important in my life was realizing that at some point I was probably going to have to transition careers and then kind of finding the Cicerone program. 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:32.490 And that also not only being sort of a beginning of developing sort of a backup plan, but also just an outlet for uh my competitiveness, uh, the fact that there's blind tasting involved and that you can be good at this particular thing. 00:08:32.889 --> 00:08:34.409 Played sports all of my life. 00:08:34.569 --> 00:08:43.769 When I got into grad school, I was diagnosed with a um with a condition that you know keeps me from playing contact sports, or at least I'm very hesitant to. 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:54.409 And so always trying to find um outlets for those sorts of things, uh, and really choosing, you know, beer not only for that experience, but just also that beer was accessible. 00:08:54.569 --> 00:08:59.850 Like I would hear wine people say, you know, oh, a cheap blind flight is you know$100,$120. 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:05.129 And I'm thinking, I I can, you know, I I don't even like wine that much, and I really like beer. 00:09:05.209 --> 00:09:10.409 And so, you know, I'm sure just like many people on Google, what is a is there such a thing as a beer sommelier? 00:09:10.649 --> 00:09:26.329 And that's how I found found Cicero and then it's like, well, I can I can do this and I can get a certification, and it's you know, I can just you know spend 20, maybe 30 bucks if it's a you know really expensive uh you know uh you know style flight or or something. 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:44.329 But then then I just realized it much like Chris 2, like the science behind it began to you know intrigue me immensely, and figuring out how all of those things worked and where they came from and how they came to be uh uh just an infinite rabbit hole to go down, which I love. 00:09:44.729 --> 00:09:46.250 That's interesting for both of you. 00:09:46.409 --> 00:09:47.849 It was a sour beer. 00:09:48.009 --> 00:09:50.329 It was a sour that yeah, that's really cool. 00:09:50.489 --> 00:09:56.649 And I think that uh certainly that is going to be a something surprising for folks who have never experienced that before. 00:09:56.809 --> 00:10:06.409 Uh, when I'm introducing people to sour beers in classes, I do some uh like library classes, so a lot of the people in there are truly brand new. 00:10:06.569 --> 00:10:09.689 And I always have to explain that these are beers that are sour on purpose. 00:10:10.250 --> 00:10:15.129 There is an alternative, but we're we're gonna taste sours that are supposed to be sour. 00:10:15.609 --> 00:10:27.929 A lot of folks who follow you guys on Instagram have uh been paying a lot of attention over the last couple of years because you guys have been very open about your preparation process for those Cicerone exams. 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:33.370 So both taking the advanced and then uh the master over the last couple years. 00:10:33.689 --> 00:10:47.289 And you guys have been really, really open and like vulnerable with this is this is the process, these are the good days, these are the bad days, this is the flight where I bombed everything and didn't get anything right, and like really been kind of an open book. 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:59.370 And I

think that has been permission for a lot of people who are prepping for these exams to be able to see that because I know when I was taking the advanced exam, I am a very private person primarily. 00:10:59.529 --> 00:11:02.250 And when I was prepping, I did that entirely alone. 00:11:02.569 --> 00:11:07.289 I didn't have any study partners and I felt very protective about that process. 00:11:07.609 --> 00:11:13.370 It was a very, you know, vulnerable thing that I was guarding for myself because I had a lot wrapped up in it. 00:11:13.449 --> 00:11:19.769 And it's been cool to see you guys do the complete opposite of that and just kind of lay open here's here's what we're doing. 00:11:19.929 --> 00:11:32.329 I want to talk a little bit about the impact of studying for those exams on your own enjoyment of beer, not on your careers, but on you as two dudes who like beer. 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:35.769 What has the preparation for that done for you? 00:11:36.089 --> 00:11:43.209 Before we talk about that specifically, most of the listeners on Bean to Barstool are actually coming primarily from the chocolate side. 00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:46.329 I'd say it's about two-thirds are coming from that side versus beer. 00:11:46.729 --> 00:11:54.489 So could you can you guys just sketch a little bit of the scope of what we're talking about in terms of the preparation you've done over the last couple years? 00:11:54.889 --> 00:11:55.929 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:56.250 --> 00:12:00.329 So we kind of joined study forces in 2020. 00:12:00.489 --> 00:12:06.889 Um, our connection was born out of the pandemic and having some extra time to get ready for some of these things. 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:16.409 Um, there's a lot longer, more detailed version of events, but in essence, we met at a time that we were both getting ready to take the advanced Cicerone exam. 00:12:16.729 --> 00:12:23.689 And we didn't at the time know when it was going to be available next because the world was in chaos. 00:12:24.569 --> 00:12:31.129 And we that exam is the third level out of four for the Cicerone program for those that don't know. 00:12:31.370 --> 00:12:45.769 And it's a basically an eight-hour day exam that includes um significant written uh oral exams and most importantly for our purposes, a uh very involved tasting exam. 00:12:46.169 --> 00:13:00.809 And the tasting exam, I think a lot of people see the Somalier program and kind of use that as their guiding light for knowing how beverage professionals operate in some of these exam conditions. 00:13:00.969 --> 00:13:11.689 And some of it on the beer side is certainly inspired by some of the things that you need to do in wine, but the tasting exam in practice is kind of completely different because there are different goals. 00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:19.209 And so some of the overlap is that you have multiple samples where you have to determine if there's something wrong with the beer. 00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:30.409 And um, that thing that could be wrong with the beer is either from a brewing problem, uh storage and handling problem, or maybe even a service issue. 00:13:30.649 --> 00:13:34.089 And so on the advanced exam, there are what is it? 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:36.969 It's got 11 off-flavor compounds. 00:13:37.129 --> 00:13:39.449 Um that yeah, 11 or 12. 00:13:39.529 --> 00:13:40.729 Yeah, one of those two. 00:13:41.049 --> 00:13:50.009 Um, and then for the master exam, it bumps up to possible 29 different uh flavor compounds that you have to be able to recognize. 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:59.849 And so that's both the uh expensive and involved part of getting ready for the tasting exam is um getting exposed to all of those flavor compounds. 00:14:00.169 --> 00:14:03.289 On advanced, there's a panel like that. 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:06.009 On the master exam, there are multiple panels like that. 00:14:06.169 --> 00:14:11.929 And then there are tasting panels that force you to flex your descriptive capabilities of beer. 00:14:12.169 --> 00:14:15.929 And those are both consumer-friendly versions of descriptions. 00:14:16.089 --> 00:14:29.049 Um, think of it like something you would see on the side of a bottle of beer that would tell you a little bit about what's going to be in the beer, um, but also technical where you're writing for your peers, um, using technical terminology where necessary. 00:14:29.370 --> 00:14:34.889 And then kind of the last class of tasting panels that that exist are styles. 00:14:35.049 --> 00:14:54.089 And this to me is the one that's most akin to wine, besides some of the off-flavor stuff, um, where instead of trying to figure out the vintage and the varietal uh of the grape, you're figuring out what which one of 104 different possible beer styles that a sample in front of you could be. 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:58.889 Um, and so this is what we had been getting ready for for a long time. 00:14:58.969 --> 00:16:20.099 And we, I think a lot of people we had we had learned they approach this exam, the tasting components of both the advanced and master exams, not not uh not too not, I don't want to say like lightly, but it's it's expensive and it's involved. 00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:26.500 And so some people might only get exposure to some of the off-flavor compounds, for example, a handful of times before the exam. 00:16:26.819 --> 00:16:34.179 We invested, we eventually invested in buying the compound spikes directly from Aroxa, the corporation that they use. 00:16:34.579 --> 00:16:47.619 And we did we practice that and every panel weekly uh over the course of what now we're on, we just finished year five basically of doing doing that. 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:50.819 Um and we obviously had restrictions early in the pandemic. 00:16:50.899 --> 00:17:14.419 Um, and we've moved and things have changed, but we in essence have done focused uh sensory and tasting at least once a week um over the course of four to five years, and tasted thousands of samples at

this point, and that's all under the umbrella of preparing for these exams. 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:19.059 So definitely with the the sensory and analytical hat on. 00:17:19.539 --> 00:17:20.579 Yeah, that's wild. 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:28.259 And then on top of that, uh for for those listening, beyond just the tasting component, you're also going to be writing essays till your arm falls off. 00:17:28.419 --> 00:17:34.099 So you have to have the back end technical knowledge beyond experience, you just have to know everything backward and forward. 00:17:34.179 --> 00:17:44.980 So you guys have invested an incredible amount of time into something that most people are just deciding to enjoy or not enjoy on a random night and not not doing all that thinking. 00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:51.859 So you guys started digging deeper originally on beer because you wanted to know why a beer tasted that way. 00:17:52.179 --> 00:18:05.059 You wanted to learn more about why you were experiencing what you were experiencing, hopefully in the goal that that was going to make your experience even more enjoyable, that that was going to blossom in your appreciation of beer. 00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:07.139 Have you found that to be true? 00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:18.019 Uh, I want to talk a little bit about how you've noticed the at times grueling and exhausting work affecting the enjoyment of the beer in your hand. 00:18:18.339 --> 00:18:23.859 Yeah, I think there's uh I think like anything, it kind of goes in ebbs and flows. 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:27.379 I I think there's a sort of seasonality to it. 00:18:27.619 --> 00:18:48.019 And I think it the big part of it is that there just tends to be certain parts of the preparation for the exam that you enjoy a little bit more and uh and others that you you know that you don't that have to do with kind of the sensory and tasting portion uh of of the exam. 00:18:48.419 --> 00:19:05.059 But uh I would say for for me, from and especially, you know, kind of in uh in response to what I hear from a lot of people, or what people often kind of say is like, are you just now happy to just to be able to enjoy uh a beer? 00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:07.539 I would say it's sort of the opposite. 00:19:07.779 --> 00:19:11.140 I think there's only one way I know how to enjoy beer now. 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:27.380 Um I don't really have I don't really have a desire to kind of go back to uh, you know, I don't, you know, mindless sounds like it's sort of akin to, you know, someone being dumb, but just not really having to to focus on it or to concentrate. 00:19:27.619 --> 00:19:38.900 And I think it's because I found a lot of positives in the idea that being in a moment where you are going to focus on one thing uh has a lot of benefits to it. 00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:49.859 Uh I remember I was um throughout the the process of preparation and and moving and lots of other other life events, I was seeking out uh therapy for some depression. 00:19:50.180 --> 00:20:01.059 And the my therapist asked, you know, what's a time where you just feel like you're you're focused and you're enjoying something and you're not kind of and everything just kind of seems to melt away. 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:04.740 And it the only thing that I could come up with was sensory. 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:12.420 It it was just honing in on this one thing, and then everything else just kind of and it just kind of doesn't exist. 00:20:12.819 --> 00:20:20.259 And especially in a in a world like today, I feel like that's something we clamor for to a certain extent. 00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:22.660 Yeah, I know I really resonate with that. 00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:39.140 Early in the pandemic, especially, my anxiety was spiking really badly, both for obvious reasons, but uh specifically related to what we're talking about, with those early strains of COVID, you know, people were sometimes losing their sense of smell and not getting it back. 00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:46.579 And I when I learned that that was a possibility, I was like, well, shit, I mean, this is my favorite thing that I do. 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:47.700 This is my career. 00:20:47.940 --> 00:21:07.380 And I found during that time that the sensory process, like sitting down, putting a beer in front of me or chocolate or whatever it was, locking everything out and just getting away from being cerebral primarily to being a sensory instrument was very centering and very settling. 00:21:07.539 --> 00:21:10.740 Uh something I was consciously using as a tool for that. 00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:13.380 So definitely uh resonate with what you're saying. 00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:14.579 Chris, how about you? 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:16.660 Yeah, I it it's interesting. 00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:29.059 And when I was getting ready to go for level two, the certified cisfrone had a lot of industry friends at that time that they would ask, like, oh, you do you really want to be this analytical about beer? 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:30.900 You know, it's just for enjoyment. 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:33.779 Is it gonna take the the joy out of it? 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:38.099 And I didn't really believe that that was possible at the time. 00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:41.940 And you hear from a lot of people, they'll they'll still ask that question to this day. 00:21:42.099 --> 00:21:47.779 Oh, can you just go out and enjoy a beer uh without uh or are you able to turn it off essentially? 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:50.099 Can you just you know turn off that mindset? 00:21:50.259 --> 00:21:54.259 And I don't think you can, at least for me, turn it completely off. 00:21:54.819 --> 00:21:59.779 But I found that that brings more enjoyment to beer in almost every instance. 00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:06.980 There are some others um that I think if you're on too high alert, that maybe it impacts your enjoyment of the situation. 00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:18.019 But when we were getting into this and really getting serious about

studying, we were still in different versions of our own like exploratory beer phase. 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:35.539 And what I think definitely happened is we gained a really massive appreciation for the classics, um, a lot of the old-world styles and just like classic archetypal examples of some of these beers that you don't normally just kick back and drink. 00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:37.779 Huge appreciation for those beers now. 00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:52.180 Um, and they're ones that you study a lot because they're made by really great breweries for a long time, and they have sensory programs that are trying to recreate the same beer every single time and make sure that you experience that beer roughly similarly every time. 00:22:52.420 --> 00:23:01.619 And I also thought like connecting the beers to different parts of the exam or different parts of beer knowledge really unlocked new pathways of enjoyment. 00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:29.299 So, one example is you could be hyper-technical about the sensory qualities of a beer and you don't like it's not a beer you would normally drink, you know, kick back with the homies and have some of, but when you learn what that beer tastes like and what it creates with food, for example, it's it's like okay, in my just I think people think of their everyday enjoyment of just drinking beers as drinking it by itself. 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:43.299 And when you do that, I think you pick beers that are either unobtrusive, you know, that are just light and easy drinking, or maybe flavor-forward beers, but they're but are ones that you enjoy the beer by itself. 00:23:43.460 --> 00:24:01.779 And studying for this exam, um, all these exams, particularly the beer and food part, just unlocked a whole new enjoyment pathway where I'm not known to sit back and just enjoy Bellhaven Scotch Ale by itself. 00:24:01.940 --> 00:24:05.940 Like I'm not splitting a six pack of that with Scott on a Wednesday night or something. 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:10.819 But having that with a meal is a different game entirely. 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:18.500 And it can unlock in enjoyment in the pairing that far surpasses what having any beer by itself could do. 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:24.500 So I think it really increases enjoyment in a lot of ways, even if you're being technical about it. 00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:33.940 I will say that maybe one area where it's hard to turn it off or you know not let it creep in is how do I best describe this? 00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:42.500 Either like hypermodern beer styles or you know, massively rotating beer styles, like the IPA of the week from your local brewery or something like that. 00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:48.019 I think that you that there's a thin needle to thread when you're making new products every week. 00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:56.660 And I think people are on the hunt for what is either wrong with those or what IPA it tasted like similarly before. 00:24:56.980 --> 00:25:06.819 But perhaps more importantly, Scott, Scott and I have been at different points really disappointed in the service aspect of some of some of the beers. 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:08.819 And so that's the part that's hard to turn off. 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:28.259 Um, it can be something as simple as going to a place that claims to serve your beer in proper glassware, so they set an expectation for that, and then you don't receive it in the proper glassware, and so there's nothing wrong with the beer necessarily, but there's something really wrong with the experience after the expectations were set. 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:40.660 Or the worst of all would be, you know, going to a brewery or a bar that doesn't clean their lines, you know, and so that that impacts that impacts your enjoyment in a way that you can't really recover from. 00:25:40.819 --> 00:25:54.420 So I think it puts you it put me on high alert in a handful of other situations, but mostly it has made me appreciate historical old world classic stuff way more than I ever anticipated that I could. 00:25:54.819 --> 00:26:02.259 I think one thing I noticed for myself was that once I became aware early on of the idea of off-flavors. 00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:18.339 So when I was studying for the certified exam and you're first getting exposed to those handful of super common brewing faults, as soon as you become aware of them, it's like the rule of the instrument, the idea that like when you're holding a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. 00:26:18.579 --> 00:26:21.539 Suddenly you're looking for it and you want to find it. 00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:36.099 And I feel like there's a for a lot of people, there's this arc of knowledge acquisition where there's a difference between when you learn a thing and when you've known the thing long enough to know what to do with it. 00:26:36.579 --> 00:26:42.900 And with off flavors, a lot of times, uh, there's a difference between, okay, now I can recognize this. 00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:46.339 Now I want to find it, now I want to point it out when I find it. 00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:50.180 And just understanding what does this off flavor even mean? 00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:53.460 Is this something that most people are even going to be aware is there? 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.900 Is it something that's objectively unpleasant? 00:26:57.299 --> 00:26:59.859 Or is it just maybe not style appropriate? 00:27:00.019 --> 00:27:02.420 And like there's a difference between those. 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:22.500 And I think uh one of the steps of growth in knowledge with beer, and I'm sure this is true of any other artisan food or drink, is getting past the okay, now I know what this is and I want to use it, and having settled into having that knowledge and understanding how to use it. 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:28.900 We had a we had a mentor early on helping us for the advanced exam, uh, Master Cicero and Brian Reed. 00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:37.140 And I think he he put that very uh succinctly and just

said, There is a point in your learning where you will know just enough to be dangerous. 00:27:37.460 --> 00:27:37.940 Yeah. 00:27:38.259 --> 00:27:39.940 To annoy everyone around. 00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:41.380 Yeah, yeah. 00:27:41.619 --> 00:28:01.859 And uh and also the I think with the the the sort of once you uh learn about off flavors and then you know your imagery of every you know problem you having a hammer and ever every problem becoming a nail, I think there's also the aspect of it that your your sensory uh you know sort of experience is almost like this stained glass window. 00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:22.420 And when you learn about certain off flavors, it it kind of puts a crack in that window because then it's not only that you maybe even go looking for them, but that you realize that the ones that you really like or the styles that you really like or the place that you really like to go drink beer actually probably has some, you know, some flaws in it. 00:28:22.579 --> 00:28:29.619 I I even know certain sensory people who, when they do that, they're just it's like a preemptive apology just in case I ruin your favorite beer for you. 00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:30.740 But you know. 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:39.380 I remember uh years ago before I got serious about beer, I was uh was traveling and I had a I think it was an amber ale. 00:28:39.940 --> 00:28:46.099 And at the time I thought it was awesome because there was a flavor in there that I had, you know, had not experienced in beer before. 00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:51.380 I now know that it was one of the worst diacetal issues in a commercial beer I've ever experienced. 00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:55.299 But at the time I was like, butterscotch beer, this is awesome. 00:28:55.539 --> 00:28:58.019 And I loved it, you know, like I was whatever. 00:28:58.099 --> 00:29:00.259 Every new beer was a cool thing. 00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:08.980 And now I'm like, if I had that, I would like I would be telling people I knew of like, you would not believe how bad this diacetal problem was in this beer. 00:29:09.140 --> 00:29:17.619 Like uh it definitely changes our our perspective on things that in some cases we might have enjoyed, you know, before we we knew them. 00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:37.380 I'm curious, I want to hear you guys talk a little bit about how uh knowing what you know about beer and having put the work into particularly to be able to identify and describe flavors in beer, how that applies to the education component for other people. 00:29:37.539 --> 00:29:42.900 Like if you're now going to have the role of introducing other people to beer, helping them to appreciate it more. 00:29:43.220 --> 00:30:00.339 One thing that I've seen in recent years that I think is excellent from intent is stripping away gatekeeping, stripping away snobbery, not making there, you know, a a required amount of knowledge for people to be able to just enjoy beer, which I think is awesome. 00:30:00.819 --> 00:30:10.500 But I

think one consequence of that sometimes is that we then penalize knowledge and penalize doing anything more than that and describing in more detail. 00:30:11.059 --> 00:30:26.900 What do you guys think about like the balance between being able to give people the tools and and describing something and celebrating complexity, but not doing that in a way that makes them feel like this is not for them because there's a barrier to entry. 00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:35.859 Yeah, I I'd like to connect that briefly to our study preparation and it being so public and vulnerable. 00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:40.740 Um, and part of I mean, that was a conscientious decision on our part. 00:30:40.900 --> 00:30:44.259 We talked about how we wanted to document um our journey. 00:30:44.420 --> 00:30:47.220 Some of it was organic, you know, we just liked sharing. 00:30:47.380 --> 00:31:02.980 Um, uh, but there there were several moments where we were having difficulty cracking through and attaining knowledge and mentorship from other people, and it just felt like this big chimera that we couldn't really poke through in a meaningful way. 00:31:03.140 --> 00:31:11.859 And then the other kind of epiphany was that while both of us are competitive, I think to go for some of these credentials, you have to be somewhat competitive. 00:31:12.099 --> 00:31:16.420 We realized this this arena is not competition with other people. 00:31:16.579 --> 00:31:39.380 Um, and we wanted to leave the chess pounding behind, um, which I think craft beer especially had um problems with that uh for quite still does in many corners, I'm sure, but there was definitely a turn around, you know, the exposure of some impropriety at different breweries where we're getting ready to study at the same time, and we don't want to be associated with any of that. 00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:46.099 And so part of approaching our process with humility, being humble, open, vulnerable. 00:31:46.259 --> 00:32:01.059 We were just tired of running into situations where people acted like they knew everything about beer, and we much preferred being around people and learning from people that admit that they're still learning something new about beer every day. 00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:33.299 And so I think throwing ourselves into that end of the water made it made us more approachable, and so our entire demeanor is you know, Scott couldn't maybe speak to it differently, but I think that there is a uh we try to set the terms of comfortability in talking about beer, and that there are what you know, while there are strictly wrong answers in some senses, that the more that we can expand our experiential capabilities and understandings, the better. 00:32:33.460 --> 00:32:35.779 You know, people people have been writing about this more and more. 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:45.220 Mark Dredge has done a a a couple of articles about something as simple as different cultural connections to different flavor compounds. 00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:55.700 And so I think craft beer had an era where, you know, a certain compound always had to taste like this, had to smell like this, and it was taught and drilled into people a certain way. 00:32:55.859 --> 00:33:02.180 And we've found that we're learning exponentially more when that pool of descriptors is widened. 00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:10.420 Um, and I think that that makes it easier to learn, but it also makes it so that you don't seem as intimidating. 00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:14.339 You know, you it's it's a more inviting form of beer education. 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:31.539 And when when it is more inviting, even if it's not explicitly so, it's just based off of your demeanor, then that that veil is lifted and there's a there's a connection that's more direct and organic and non-confrontational. 00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:39.619 Um, and I think beer is doing a better job at being less know-it-all and more invitational. 00:33:39.859 --> 00:33:46.099 Um, but I think that that swinging to the invitational end of the spectrum has helped has helped a ton. 00:33:46.339 --> 00:34:20.820 Yeah, I think uh a really good example of what uh Chris was talking about that we both experienced when we took uh Cicerone did kind of their version, their first kind of version of Aroxa that was because uh for people who don't know Aroxa is a flavor standard company, uh they hold an annual uh five-day uh taster training course that kind of at some point, I don't know when, but basically kind of became part of the like, if you want to pass the master exam, like you need to take this course. 00:34:20.980 --> 00:34:33.300 And for however many years now is usually if it's held in the United States at some point, it is usually in a city very close to where the exam is gonna be, and often the week before the exam. 00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:39.940 And we Cicerone kind of did their own version that is actually geared completely towards the master exam. 00:34:40.099 --> 00:34:47.300 And just the the first panel out of the gate, you know, there's three master cicerones in the back, they're doing the off-flavors along with us. 00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:50.900 We get done with the first set of panels, and you know, Dan M. 00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:59.539 Dike, one of the two owners of Cicerone, just says, just so everybody knows, like nobody back there is batting a thousand, you know, and that's all it takes. 00:34:59.780 --> 00:35:02.660 It just takes one, you know, it just takes one thing. 00:35:02.740 --> 00:35:22.820 And I now, like Chris said, with how sort of open we've been with our process, a lot of the times when I do education now, especially around sensory, I just say, if there was anybody who really, really wanted to, they could, they could dig through my Instagram account and make a solid argument out of context that I am a terrible taster. 00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:37.380 They could take every you know, zero and one out of seven that I've ever, you know, gotten and uh,

you know, one or two out of five that I got studying for advanced, and they could make a case, you know, without all the context that I am just not a great, uh, a great taster. 00:35:37.539 --> 00:35:44.340 And I think just even just that one simple thing uh really does uh a lot for setting expectations. 00:35:44.660 --> 00:37:33.070 And I think the other part of it too is, uh and maybe this is different for everyone who goes through you know programs like these, but I think there is a certain point, uh, especially I think I would say argue that it happens in the the upper levels of most of these programs, is there there is a point where you start to realize that even though you may know a lot more than maybe the vast majority of people, you understand how much you still do not know. 00:37:33.310 --> 00:37:42.750 Uh and so that alone is a is a humbling uh experience and revelation to you know to kind of come to for you know whoever and whenever that happens. 00:37:42.990 --> 00:38:26.670 And uh so that's why I think uh honestly at the times where we've maybe seen that or even run into that, uh, it's people who uh again, it's not that they're a certain level in the in the program, but they're they're just it seems like maybe they've just crossed over into that knowing just enough to you know to be to be dangerous because we we listen to all the beer podcasts and uh you know there's every so often there's always a story about somebody and it's like oh this Cicerone came in, uh, you know, and uh it you know, and it's and unfortunately for some people it just takes one of us, you know, to kind of put a put a bad taste in then all of a sudden it's like oh they're all kind of snobby like that and they just want to tell you what to do and tell you how you're you know how you're wrong. 00:38:26.830 --> 00:38:37.310 And but we also that's honestly something we struggle with too, because sometimes we will see something and we're like, wow, that's really like not super great uh information. 00:38:37.390 --> 00:38:47.550 And then we uh usually are like, you know, like maybe it's not our place, you know, to say anything, so we just kind of you know talk internally and just say, okay, is this kind of what you were were seeing? 00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:53.150 But then I've kind of also posed the question to Chris, then then whose job is it? 00:38:53.310 --> 00:39:00.190 You know, are we all just kind of just allowed to kind of float in the you know the ether of social media and just say whatever? 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:09.630 Uh, you know, and and that's why for us personally, that's why we hold uh MSODR at Pints and Panels as just the gold standard. 00:39:10.110 --> 00:39:25.550 Just the person who will put something out that has some internal, you know, connections and resources that that she you know consults and then will quickly uh and publicly, you know, change information saying I've learned X, Y, and Z because so and so. 00:39:25.790 --> 00:39:30.670 And

these people have reached out to her because they know that she is willing to hear that. 00:39:30.910 --> 00:39:38.110 And for us, that is, you know, that that's truly one, that's like something that we uh, you know, would aspire to be like. 00:39:38.670 --> 00:39:45.150 How do you think that posture translates to how we present products to consumers? 00:39:45.310 --> 00:39:52.110 I think one trend we're seeing is getting away from hyper focus on style names that people haven't heard of. 00:39:52.350 --> 00:40:01.870 I know in the cocktail world there's some movement away from rather than just a list of ingredients, here's five keyword flavor descriptors. 00:40:02.269 --> 00:40:14.030 What do you think is the balance there between that approachability while also giving people the tools to have that knowledge if they if they want it and not just not removing the idea of knowledge from this? 00:40:14.350 --> 00:40:21.470 Yeah, what what is that balance between not gatekeeping but still giving accurate and useful information? 00:40:22.030 --> 00:40:28.030 Yeah, for me it's all bound up in service and developing a service forward identity. 00:40:28.269 --> 00:40:44.670 It's the most difficult thing to teach, especially having tended bar and done beer tending for years, is the instinctual understanding of where a customer is at based on what they're asking about or how they're interacting in a beer environment. 00:40:44.830 --> 00:40:59.310 And so, you know, we exist in this world where uh dozens of beer myths have done the general populace the disservice of you know saying things like, I don't like loggers, but I like pilsners. 00:40:59.470 --> 00:41:03.630 You know, and that's like not a moment to, it's not a gotcha moment. 00:41:03.790 --> 00:41:14.830 You know, you have to figure out quickly, you have to understand the context of how a person could get to saying something like that and uh uh approach them where they are. 00:41:14.990 --> 00:41:22.269 Um, and that's not in terms of talking down or developing some more dictatorial strategy or something. 00:41:22.350 --> 00:41:26.670 It's just like, oh, okay, this is where this person is in their beer journey. 00:41:26.910 --> 00:41:34.190 Remember when I was at that part of the beer journey, and how would I appreciate being coaxed out of it or at least coaxed forward? 00:41:34.510 --> 00:41:40.510 So all the way from there up to flavor notes for the the next hottest IPA. 00:41:40.590 --> 00:41:43.470 You know, I think that the best thing that a lot of tap rooms do. 00:41:43.710 --> 00:41:58.110 I I love when I walk into a tap room and I'm asking about a beer, and the beer tender says, Oh, I think this smells like peaches and nectarines, but Scott really gets this citrus kick out of it. 00:41:58.350 --> 00:41:58.990 Try it. 00:41:59.230 --> 00:42:14.110 You know, it's just everything is like so inviting and communal where you're presenting the information as, oh, people perceive this in different ways, but you don't have to explain, you know, the history of genetic differences in in tasting and smelling. 00:42:14.269 --> 00:42:16.910 It's just it's apparent, it's part of the presentation. 00:42:17.230 --> 00:42:19.790 So-and-so gets X out of it, I get Y. 00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:20.990 What do you think? 00:42:21.150 --> 00:42:23.230 And that's the invitational component to it. 00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:39.630 And so, yeah, I think, you know, we've already talked about knowing just enough to be dangerous, and I think switching from that danger being like the intentional weaponization of your knowledge to it being more like, oh, I'm still learning about this too. 00:42:40.030 --> 00:42:41.390 Here's here's what we think. 00:42:41.550 --> 00:42:44.910 Let's make this decision together based on the information that we have. 00:42:45.230 --> 00:42:47.150 I think that fixes the problem quite a bit. 00:42:47.550 --> 00:42:58.910 One of the difficult things with this is figuring out how to give knowledge to the people who want it without talking down to the folks who just want to enjoy whatever's in front of them. 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:06.350 My my wife uh is from Chicago and she was talking at one point about going to a coffee cupping at a coffee roastery in Chicago. 00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:07.870 She knew nothing about coffee. 00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:11.390 So she's going there to learn a little bit about coffee. 00:43:11.710 --> 00:43:30.030 And the the posture of the the baristas who were running it was so hands-off from a we don't want to influence you, we don't want to talk down to you, that they ended up not really giving her any tools to understand what is the difference between these uh coffees that you put in front of me. 00:43:30.110 --> 00:43:42.030 Like it's great that you don't want to tell me I'm wrong because I taste this or that, but at the same time, I'm wanting to come away from this with some some tools and some pieces and some language, and that's not there. 00:43:42.110 --> 00:43:47.390 And I feel like that that balance and that tipping point is the hardest thing. 00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:57.390 Uh how do you give that when people want it and not be, you know, mansplaining to whoever's on the other side of the bar when they're not asking for that. 00:43:57.630 --> 00:44:02.030 And it's very difficult to universally design that approach, right? 00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:07.310 Like you want it to be the space to be available for both versions of that person, right? 00:44:07.390 --> 00:44:11.310 The one that's receptive to to education and the one that's the one that's not. 00:44:11.470 --> 00:44:15.950 Because if you want to just show up and drink beers and not be lectured to, I got no problem with that. 00:44:16.110 --> 00:44:21.630 Like that is a that is a disposition that is important for a variety of reasons, you know. 00:44:21.710 --> 00:44:40.830 And Scott and I are kind of going through a bunch of theorizing about how to create

that type of space where you can put on an event where if somebody just wants to show up and enjoy the beer that's being featured, um, meet some new people and not feel like it's school, they can do that. 00:44:40.990 --> 00:44:47.070 But that there are avenues for existing in that space where you can ask a bunch of questions. 00:44:47.230 --> 00:44:56.670 There might be menu items that dive a little bit deeper, but they're not overwhelming and you know, put in front of your face as sort of the gatekeeping to the event. 00:44:57.070 --> 00:45:05.470 I really agree with uh with Chris's kind of read the room uh, you know, uh approach and really setting expectations. 00:45:05.710 --> 00:45:17.230 I'm I'm personally not gonna lose any sleep if I'm talking about a sensory event that I'm gonna do that's for people who are gonna be taking, you know, the local Cicerone or advanced Cicerone tasting exam. 00:45:17.310 --> 00:45:22.990 Uh, and then somebody shows up and says, you know, why why are we uh only drinking one kind of beer? 00:45:23.150 --> 00:45:49.150 And and it's like, you know, it's like, okay, like I was never really gonna probably reach that person anyway, or somehow they ended up here, and this is not what they um and so I think just setting clear expectations, and I think you were that something that you were saying, David, I think it's giving people as many tools as they can, and then just but then helping them along the way so that they can kind of come to their own conclusion. 00:45:49.390 --> 00:46:11.230 And that that conclusion, uh sometimes for, you know, and it just kind of staying on sensory, uh, even though there even though there are some uh you know, compounds where it's like this is kind of what it smells like, you know, this is what uh a lot of people get, some compounds that has been drilled in because there aren't really a lot of other ones. 00:46:11.550 --> 00:46:17.870 You know, maybe there's maybe there's one other one and it's this very specific, you know, cultural, uh, cultural aspect. 00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:20.190 This was a great story that uh Dr. 00:46:20.269 --> 00:46:22.030 Bill Simpson of Oroxa told us. 00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:31.710 He said he was uh teaching a class in Asia and he was having a lot of trouble uh with getting people to understand that diacetyl to a lot of people smelled like butter. 00:46:31.950 --> 00:46:40.510 And for anybody who doesn't know, diacetyl is a um uh kind of uh fermentation byproduct that happens in beer making uh all the time. 00:46:40.670 --> 00:46:48.990 In certain styles, having some of it is okay, but the vast majority of the time it's seen as a uh as an off-note uh and not supposed to be there. 00:46:49.150 --> 00:47:21.710 And he just really couldn't make this connection until finally somebody said, This is what it's like when somebody has left rice in the rice cooker for too long and the bacteria in it has started to create these sorts of compounds because in that particular region of the world, every household had a right, you know, has a rice maker, you know, but they rarely use, you know, these kinds of, you know, kind of fake movie theater butter, you know, kind of products in the cuisine, you know, of that region. 00:47:22.110 --> 00:47:28.190 Um, and so yes, there might be some that are, you know, where maybe in a A particular part of the world, it's different. 00:47:28.350 --> 00:47:36.350 But then there's others where I mean, uh, there was three of us in a study group at one point, and uh one compound, we all smell it completely differently. 00:47:36.510 --> 00:47:44.269 Sometimes we even smelled it at different concentrations, depending on how strong it was or how much was present uh in the beer. 00:47:44.510 --> 00:47:53.470 And so uh again, giving people the tools of this is this is a really good way to if you're really trying to parse out some of these things, if that's what you're shooting for. 00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:56.990 So figuring out what what the goals are uh for that person. 00:47:57.070 --> 00:48:25.070 And again, you can just you can hold an event and you can have people who are coming in who are studying for an exam and other people who are like, I just want to learn more about beer, uh, you know, and so it's kind of figuring out, okay, like when he when this person is asking this question, like Chris said, okay, they seem like they're coming from you know this sort of a of a knowledge base and and trying to base that uh off of evidence and not just, you know, sort of assumptions, um, just doing our best to, you know, engage with people. 00:48:25.230 --> 00:48:28.190 I think that's the other thing that Chris has said that I think is just so important. 00:48:28.269 --> 00:48:43.550 The more that we can kind of engage and get the person to kind of open up about maybe what they're looking for or what their relationship is to be or the goals that they have, uh, then we become better at helping them uh, you know, find whatever it is they're looking for. 00:48:43.870 --> 00:48:44.670 Yeah, for sure. 00:48:44.830 --> 00:48:54.590 But something that uh comes up in Kraft Chocolate, which we're about to talk about, most craft chocolate is enjoyed in areas of the world where cacao is not grown. 00:48:54.750 --> 00:49:03.950 And so standardizing descriptive language, going back to cacao growing regions and saying, well, you know, this the chocolate that's coming from this tastes like blueberry. 00:49:04.110 --> 00:49:06.350 Well, blueberries aren't grown there. 00:49:06.510 --> 00:49:08.510 Like blueberry is not a flavor reference. 00:49:08.590 --> 00:49:31.710 And so being able to not not take that descriptive language back to cacao growing regions in this very colonial way and say, no, these are the flavor descriptors, and figure out what is the common language we can use, what is the mutual education that can take place so that we can communicate about this is something really interesting

that's happening in that space. 00:49:31.950 --> 00:49:35.790 On that note, uh, you guys have a couple chocolate bars that we're going to taste. 00:49:35.950 --> 00:49:40.110 So you have two bars from Dandelion out there in California. 00:49:40.430 --> 00:49:48.030 Dandelion is sort of a, they're kind of like a Sierra Nevada type of company for craft chocolate, where they were one of the early ones. 00:49:48.269 --> 00:49:52.830 They're still one of the biggest ones, but making still making very good product. 00:49:53.070 --> 00:50:03.150 Uh, and for a lot of people, uh, especially early adopters in craft chocolate, they probably would have been one of the first, if not the first, that they tasted. 00:50:03.470 --> 00:50:06.110 Uh so I'm excited for you guys to taste these two. 00:50:06.430 --> 00:50:14.910 You've got two single origin bars, 70% bars, one from Tomaco, Colombia, one from Simaliki Forest, Uganda. 00:50:15.150 --> 00:50:18.830 So, what I want to do here, you've got both of these bars in front of you. 00:50:18.990 --> 00:50:22.350 Um, go ahead and open, let's start with the Columbia bar. 00:50:22.430 --> 00:50:23.550 Go ahead and open that one. 00:50:24.030 --> 00:50:27.310 First thing you're gonna do, same with beer, is take a look at it. 00:50:27.710 --> 00:50:33.790 And there's a couple different things that you can uh evaluate as you're looking at your bar of chocolate. 00:50:34.350 --> 00:50:46.030 One, obviously, color, gonna give you a general indication probably of uh cacao percentage, but that's not always going to be one-to-one between you know the same bars. 00:50:46.430 --> 00:50:55.310 Also looking at the shine of the bar, uh looking at how much gloss it has, give you a little sense of the texture of what you're looking at there. 00:50:55.550 --> 00:51:00.830 A good gloss is often an indication of a well-tempered bar. 00:51:01.390 --> 00:51:04.030 Chocolate is a fat suspension. 00:51:04.269 --> 00:51:07.550 So you're grinding up the bean, it's about 40% fat. 00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:08.830 The rest of it is solids. 00:51:09.070 --> 00:51:16.110 And as you're grinding all that up and then rehardening it from a liquid, it's a very specific process to get it to reharden correctly. 00:51:16.190 --> 00:51:20.430 And what happens is all those solids end up in suspension in the fat in there. 00:51:20.670 --> 00:51:26.670 And when that's done properly, you get a really nice even gloss on the surface of the bar there. 00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:37.950 And then one cool thing that chocolate makers do uh that we don't have any corollary to in beer is get to come up with any kind of mold design for the bar itself. 00:51:38.030 --> 00:51:43.550 So some of them are custom, some of them are kind of generic, and you just get squares, some of them are super elaborate. 00:51:43.630 --> 00:51:44.670 Uh, very, very cool. 00:51:44.990 --> 00:51:48.830 Scott, I just saw you hold up the piece and snap it by your ear there. 00:51:48.910 --> 00:51:50.510 So you've done this a little bit before. 00:51:50.670 --> 00:51:54.750 It's one of my favorite rituals in craft chocolate is the snap. 00:51:54.910 --> 00:52:03.070 So you hold the piece up to your ear, snap it, get that nice clean uh snapping sound is another indication of proper tempering. 00:52:03.310 --> 00:52:17.230 It's one of those things that really means nothing to the the actual tasting of the bar, but it's it's a ritual that I enjoy for its own sake because it really has no corollary in any sort of beverage application. 00:52:17.310 --> 00:52:23.550 Like it's something that like just that that audible sound is kind of just like a cue that you're about to start this process. 00:52:23.630 --> 00:52:24.350 So I love that. 00:52:24.750 --> 00:52:27.150 Uh, you certainly can smell your chocolate. 00:52:27.230 --> 00:52:37.630 Now, being a solid, it's not gonna give off as much from a volatile standpoint as a liquid like beer will, but you can still smell it to get a little bit of an indication there. 00:52:37.950 --> 00:52:42.190 In doing that, anything stand out to either of you with this Columbia bar? 00:52:42.750 --> 00:52:46.430 To me, it smells less roasty than I would have expected. 00:52:46.590 --> 00:53:02.910 Um you know, we're we're taught in in beer that you can't really smell textures or primary tastes, obviously, but it it smells like it's gonna be smoother and creamier um than I would have anticipated for a bar that's I think 70% cacao. 00:53:03.070 --> 00:53:03.470 Yeah. 00:53:03.870 --> 00:53:17.070 Yeah, one thing with that, uh, while the the percentage obviously tells you how much cacao is in there, the relative roast level of how how significantly they've roasted those beans could vary within that. 00:53:17.230 --> 00:53:25.790 Uh and then obviously, of course, origin to origin, you can get some difference, but depending on the roast profile, you might get more or less of that intensity. 00:53:26.269 --> 00:53:35.310 Yeah, and the road the roast roasty or toasty character there is reminds me more of mixed nuts than it does of say coffee. 00:53:35.870 --> 00:53:36.269 Sure. 00:53:36.910 --> 00:53:43.790 If I'm not mistaken, uh this is one of their more uh approachable origins that they're doing. 00:53:43.950 --> 00:53:52.830 It is more kind of classically chocolatey, you know, rather than being something that has a bunch of different exotic descriptors that we're gonna be coming up with. 00:53:52.910 --> 00:53:58.030 So I feel like that that nutty kind of creamy profile probably makes sense. 00:53:58.350 --> 00:53:58.590 All right. 00:53:58.670 --> 00:54:01.870 Next thing you're gonna do, put it on your tongue, let it melt. 00:54:02.030 --> 00:54:04.430 Uh, I would encourage you not to chew it. 00:54:04.590 --> 00:55:14.500 You can break it up with your teeth, but don't necessarily like chew it with your molars so much as just break it up into small pieces so you're exposing surface area and then just letting

that melt on your tongue. 00:55:14.900 --> 00:55:21.140 Well-tempered chocolate uh melts just a few degrees below body temperature. 00:55:21.540 --> 00:55:27.140 So it generally does need to sit on your tongue for a few seconds before it really starts melting and releasing those. 00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:39.380 So one of the reasons when pairing with beer, it's so important to allow the chocolate to melt first before you take a sip of the beer, because otherwise it just locks it in place and it won't melt and release those aromatics. 00:55:40.180 --> 00:55:44.260 I would say that to me, that unfolds a lot differently than I anticipated. 00:55:44.340 --> 00:55:51.220 It's as it's beginning to melt, it's definitely like a a lot of almond butter sensation. 00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:57.300 I don't I don't know a lot about um craft chocolate other than I enjoy it immensely. 00:55:57.460 --> 00:56:03.060 Um and I and I do seek out single origin bars in particular. 00:56:03.140 --> 00:56:06.900 I just kind of like want to know what cacao from a region might taste like. 00:56:07.220 --> 00:56:13.140 But from what you've said about the tempering quality, I mean it's a really uniform melt over the tongue. 00:56:13.540 --> 00:56:20.900 It kind of starts to wash with this almond butter type of character to me, and then like a classic cocoa. 00:56:21.140 --> 00:56:24.660 But then after a few seconds, there's something distinctly fruity. 00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:30.420 It's very like almost um plum, like a like a juicy plum. 00:56:30.820 --> 00:56:34.020 Yeah, I'm getting a little bit of uh of that. 00:56:34.180 --> 00:57:02.660 It's a little bit of like um like a toasted hazelnut, and also just I would say kind of like a very uh kind of like ripe, uh like peach uh kind of flavor, uh, and then just kind of like an indistinct kind of florality, like kind of kind of reminds me of like a freshly picked, you know, peach with the stem, you know, still on it with some of the you know, kind of the leafy herbaceousness still in the background. 00:57:02.980 --> 00:57:08.420 So Scott, uh do you have a little bit of familiarity and background with craft chocolate? 00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:09.620 Only a little bit. 00:57:09.780 --> 00:57:15.780 During the during the pandemic, I did beer, cheese, and chocolate pairings via Zoom. 00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:27.220 And uh so I've got some of the kind of like more popular, like, you know, chocolate books, and a lot of the stuff you're you're talking about, I'm um I'm very familiar with. 00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.660 And much like Chris, like I enjoy craft chocolate. 00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:33.700 Um, I'm a particularly a fan of of dandelion. 00:57:33.940 --> 00:57:43.780 I have family in San Francisco, and whenever I'm there, I always go there and try some of the interesting stuff they only have that, you know, maybe it's harder for them to ship uh and that sort of thing. 00:57:44.100 --> 00:57:54.100 But uh and then obviously I've bought uh any of the like chocolate pairing books that you've um produced, I've I've definitely have those in my library as well. 00:57:54.260 --> 00:58:08.100 So uh definitely had some uh you know some beer and chocolate pairing uh experience, but no, nothing like going to a chocolate tasting on you know on my own or anything like you were, uh like you were kind of mentioning with the you know coffee cupping. 00:58:08.500 --> 00:58:08.820 Sure. 00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:11.940 No, but that's cool uh that you've got a little bit of background with it. 00:58:12.260 --> 00:58:17.060 And then of course, the the last thing that you're paying attention to uh as you're you're tasting it is that texture. 00:58:17.220 --> 00:58:26.980 You know, you had Chris, you had used the word creamy in describing the the aroma, which you know you you you explained obviously isn't something you can smell, but you get that indication. 00:58:27.220 --> 00:58:28.980 What did you feel about the melt here? 00:58:29.140 --> 00:58:31.460 Did you get that kind of creamy texture? 00:58:31.620 --> 00:58:34.340 How would you describe that mouthfeel? 00:58:34.900 --> 00:58:44.820 Yeah, it was I would say that it's creamy, but it is more like a either a syrup or like a honey that has no grit to it. 00:58:44.980 --> 00:58:50.260 So it's tongue-coating, but not oppressively so. 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:51.940 Um, it still has some lift. 00:58:52.100 --> 00:59:16.100 I think the the fruit notes really help with that perceptually, but yeah, I would I would train change it from like generically creamy, which evokes vanilla and dairy and those things, and more to like a like a sugar solution, like a like a honey or a chocolate syrup, like a really good chocolate syrup, not a not a fake one, but yeah, it's it's got that texture to it to me. 00:59:16.420 --> 00:59:16.820 Very cool. 00:59:17.060 --> 00:59:25.700 Yeah, it's got a it's got a very uh yeah, kind of approachable density to the uh to the melt. 00:59:25.780 --> 00:59:30.340 It's not sort of this kind of cloying kind of sensation. 00:59:30.820 --> 00:59:40.980 One thing that helped me uh a lot with understanding texture in chocolate was understanding a little bit of the chocolate making process. 00:59:41.060 --> 00:59:45.700 It you know, it this does get liquefied before it becomes a solid. 00:59:45.860 --> 00:59:51.940 And so that that fat is getting melted and you are you're getting what we call chocolate liquor. 00:59:52.020 --> 00:59:57.540 And so it is becoming basically a a syrup, a sauce, and then getting rehardened. 00:59:57.620 --> 01:00:14.340 And so when you're tasting it in that solid form, it's very easy to recognize that earlier gestational stage for it where it's like this this was a liquid and it kind of wants to be a liquid, and it's wanting to to melt and turn into that format. 01:00:14.660 --> 01:00:45.780 And is there is there a wide variation when when people are you know crafting this and and wondering how how they sort

of want it you know to melt, or is there just kind of like a gold, you know, standard of like this is kind of where you I'm kind of trying to think, is it kind of like cheese where there's some cheeses where it's like you're gonna have a more crumbly, you know, and there's kind of levels of hardness to the texture, all the way down to you know, some that are you know just themselves calling them, you know, calling them a solid seems like a lie. 01:00:45.940 --> 01:00:46.100 Right. 01:00:46.980 --> 01:00:49.540 Oh, they're they're runny if if if anything. 01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:56.180 So the higher the percentage of the cacao butter that's in a bar, the more likely it is to melt. 01:00:56.260 --> 01:01:13.140 So when you're looking at something like uh a uh lower percentage milk chocolate, where there's gonna be they're adding in some of that butter or white chocolate, which is chocolate, but there's no cacao solids, it's just the cacao butter, you're gonna expect those to melt at a lower temperature. 01:01:13.220 --> 01:01:21.220 Once you get into dark chocolate, higher percentage milk chocolates, there's gonna be a difference to the texture of that melt. 01:01:21.460 --> 01:01:30.020 And you can definitely, once you get familiar with them, uh start employing language to describe how how readily this wants to melt. 01:01:30.100 --> 01:01:53.540 But in terms of actual temperature, it's it's roughly within a pretty narrow range in there when it's properly tempered, because the specific physical format that the fat crystals have to be in is like one specific format, like that these you have to hit these temperature thresholds up and down uh to be able to get it to turn into this particular type of fat crystal. 01:01:53.700 --> 01:01:57.780 So once it's in that, there's a pretty, pretty uniform range. 01:01:57.860 --> 01:01:58.740 Um gotcha. 01:01:59.060 --> 01:02:04.980 But that is gonna change a little bit as you go down in percentage and you're getting away from those cacao solids uh as much. 01:02:05.860 --> 01:02:07.780 Let's go ahead and uh taste the second bar. 01:02:07.860 --> 01:02:12.900 So this other one is from Uganda, Semeliki Forest, same percentage. 01:02:13.540 --> 01:02:21.940 Uh, and I think this is a really fun opportunity tasting the same maker at the same percentage because now the only thing we're changing is cacao origin. 01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:37.380 Uh so it's it's kind of like tasting the same breweries, three IPAs where they're just doing three different hops, and you're eliminating any other variables, and all you're now seeing is uh you know the difference in these three smash beers or something like that. 01:02:37.700 --> 01:02:38.180 Right. 01:02:38.500 --> 01:02:45.460 It's distinctly darker than the than the first one, uh, is the first thing the first thing that I notice. 01:02:45.700 --> 01:02:47.700 There's definitely a color difference. 01:02:48.020 --> 01:02:49.620 Yeah, similar sheen. 01:02:49.780 --> 01:02:57.380 Um it's the same kind of emboss on the square, but yeah, definitely a shade or two darker. 01:02:58.180 --> 01:02:58.500 Nice. 01:02:58.740 --> 01:03:04.500 Can you tell we study together and I won't ask you SRM on the chocolate. 01:03:05.620 --> 01:03:06.500 24. 01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:13.540 Yeah, go ahead and go through uh that same process and feel free, either one of you to say anything that's standing out throughout there. 01:03:14.020 --> 01:03:20.100 Kind of skipped audibly describing aroma, but it was definitely less nutty on first pass. 01:03:20.740 --> 01:03:28.180 More almost smelled like um bushberries of some kind, like like red currants or something like that. 01:03:28.580 --> 01:03:33.220 Yeah, I was gonna say raspberry on the on the palate for sure. 01:03:33.860 --> 01:03:36.020 It switches directly to raspberry on the palate. 01:03:36.180 --> 01:03:38.180 It was like raspberry, mulberry. 01:03:39.060 --> 01:03:40.340 This is like a wave. 01:03:40.500 --> 01:03:50.420 I mean, this is like like amber, like amber, you know, honey that like leads into yeah, red raspberry. 01:03:50.660 --> 01:03:54.660 I forget what the what the original fruit you were saying on the on the aroma was. 01:03:54.740 --> 01:03:55.780 That's definitely kind of in there. 01:03:56.180 --> 01:03:56.660 Red currant. 01:03:57.380 --> 01:03:58.500 Yeah, red currant, yeah. 01:03:58.660 --> 01:04:06.900 Red currant for sure, kind of like uh yeah, this very like tropical, uh, you know, kind of almost tropical red, you know, red fruit. 01:04:07.860 --> 01:04:10.340 And there's some dried fruit characteristic too. 01:04:10.420 --> 01:04:13.060 Like we get in get in multi beers a lot. 01:04:13.140 --> 01:04:19.940 It's like a it's not like a bright vibrant cherry, it's like dried cherry in a trail mix, basically. 01:04:20.500 --> 01:04:24.020 But raspberry, I think, is the best immediate descriptor. 01:04:24.100 --> 01:04:35.300 It's almost it almost even has akin to the peach stem on the last chocolate, the seed, you know, it has like a tannic seed like quality to it as well. 01:04:35.460 --> 01:04:37.300 But that doesn't impact the texture. 01:04:37.460 --> 01:04:39.780 The texture is very similar to the first one. 01:04:40.100 --> 01:04:44.500 I was gonna ask, if do you feel like there is any kind of astringency along with that? 01:04:44.900 --> 01:04:49.380 There there's maybe a little more, it might just be more chocolate on the palate, more uh more. 01:04:49.860 --> 01:04:50.980 That's what I was wondering too. 01:04:51.060 --> 01:04:51.460 Yeah. 01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:59.940 But yeah, maybe a less dense, uh uh, it seems like a less dense creamy honey texture character than than the first chocolate. 01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:16.020 Yeah, and also the uh Chris saying that it kind of smells less distinctly, kind of like, you know, kind of like what maybe we would associate with kind of milk chocolatey, it doesn't really it definitely doesn't kind of

present that way on on the palette either. 01:05:16.100 --> 01:05:20.500 I'm trying to think of what that's I'm I'm I'm right with Chris. 01:05:20.580 --> 01:05:29.460 I'm like, okay, if you're talking about the base chocolate, like think about it like you're describing malt, like you're what is it like how do you how are you describing the soul of this of this chocolate bar? 01:05:29.700 --> 01:05:32.420 Well, I'm curious, uh, and this is not a leading question. 01:05:32.580 --> 01:05:49.540 I'm not tasting the bars with you to uh to to be able to to know, but uh when you're describing it as having a lighter texture, do you think that is actually organic to the mouthfeel, or is that those brighter flavors kind of pulling it up and making it making it seem less heavy? 01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:51.460 I think it's the latter. 01:05:51.540 --> 01:06:15.060 I'm I was thinking through that when I was describing the the little bit of fruit lift on the first chocolate, but the second one, the um semaliki, is so fruity and berry in character that I think that it's especially on the retro nasal, is so lively that it's almost tricking me into thinking that the that the that it's lighter, that the body of the chocolate is lighter. 01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:22.900 But if um I didn't uh maybe I will on the next little piece, but I didn't like plug my nose to try to really sit with the texture only. 01:06:23.380 --> 01:06:31.860 But I I wouldn't be surprised if it was more similar to the first one than I thought, and that it's the it's the fruit notes doing the heavy lifting or little light lifting in this case. 01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:35.460 Yeah, because it really is it, yeah, it really is the power. 01:06:35.620 --> 01:06:40.980 I mean, the for people listening, the power of perception and and sensory is is very, very real. 01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:54.660 Um and uh I I mean, just if told to describe the two textures, I would say the first one is I agree, kind of this more like thicker, kind of more syrupy uh kind of thing. 01:06:54.740 --> 01:07:04.100 And this is more maybe just like if you're talking like like a chocolate pudding, but on like the the most dense, you know, end of that possible. 01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:12.260 Um, but just a just a little bit airier to it, to the perception is what I would assume. 01:07:12.820 --> 01:07:13.700 Yeah, I love that. 01:07:13.860 --> 01:07:22.340 I love uh hearing you guys talk about these bars when they are basically identical bars, just different cacao origins, and how much of a role that that plays. 01:07:22.580 --> 01:07:24.980 Oh man, it's fascinating. 01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:26.660 Well, what are your takeaways? 01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:36.020 Uh obviously you've uh you both had chocolate before, but I mean just sitting here now and tasting these two side by side, any thoughts or takeaways you have from the experience? 01:07:36.420 --> 01:07:46.980 Mine to me, since we have chocolate from the same chocolate maker, um,

and it's just different origins, it's it, I mean, it's the power of of origin. 01:07:47.860 --> 01:07:55.940 It's you know, the the whatever philosophy of chocolate making is in the is in these bars is hard to compare when they're both from dandelion. 01:07:56.340 --> 01:08:11.620 So that that experience is maybe flattened in favor of this is what hopefully is what Semaliki Forest evokes for me now is a much like livelier, fruitier, top note type of coffee. 01:08:11.700 --> 01:08:14.660 Um, and the Colombian chocolate uh I said coffee. 01:08:14.820 --> 01:08:19.619 I uh I came into uh this from a coffee nerd angle even before beer. 01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:23.940 So a lot of a lot of stuff I borrowed from that, but I meant chocolate, not coffee. 01:08:24.100 --> 01:08:26.659 The Colombian one is more it's interesting. 01:08:26.820 --> 01:08:34.340 I didn't realize that this was maybe intentionally one of their more approachable craft chocolates, but it it tastes like that to me. 01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:42.579 It you know, it's it's nutty, it's like what you would think of a craft chocolate should taste like in terms of like its chocolate density. 01:08:42.739 --> 01:08:45.060 You know, we talk about beer that tastes like beer. 01:08:45.140 --> 01:08:52.659 Um, I think that the first square has a you know, it's got an essence of chocolate that tastes like chocolate in it. 01:08:52.739 --> 01:09:00.579 Um, and the the um the African chocolate is completely upends those expectations. 01:09:00.739 --> 01:09:03.539 Yeah, it's very cool experiment side by side. 01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:10.180 I love how much tasting outside of our target area can just make us better tasters. 01:09:10.420 --> 01:09:20.260 You know, even if your goal is just to be a better beer taster, taste wine, geek out on coffee, like just explore widely. 01:09:20.579 --> 01:09:34.340 Not only do you gain knowledge on uh how different types of people talk about the sensory experience in these different segments, but your your range of flavor references, uh, all of those things expand. 01:09:34.980 --> 01:09:36.340 Well, that's true. 01:09:36.820 --> 01:09:39.860 And we need help in beer in some respects on that. 01:09:40.020 --> 01:09:47.220 Um, I think we have a very limited set of ways to define the texture of a beer. 01:09:47.300 --> 01:09:54.180 You know, we sort of talk about carbonation and volumes and give it a little, you know, low to high range. 01:09:54.340 --> 01:10:04.420 Um, and it might be sweet finishing or dry and astringent, but like I always look up to the wine community and their ability to describe the texture of a wine. 01:10:04.579 --> 01:10:07.220 They just have so many more tools at their disposal. 01:10:07.380 --> 01:10:25.140 Um, so I crib a lot from wine, and I think chocolate has some overlap of the Venn diagram there, where you're forced to use and learn different descriptures for texture and the mouthfeel of it because it's so far outside of the realm of our

normal. 01:10:25.699 --> 01:10:27.140 beer sensory experience. 01:10:27.460 --> 01:10:27.699 Yeah. 01:10:27.779 --> 01:10:41.059 I would say anybody who I do education for, uh, any of my students that I teach through Beer Scholar, what usually when it's how do I get better at at beer sensory, it's usually twofold. 01:10:41.219 --> 01:10:45.139 Uh the first one is it's going to be really hard if you're doing it by yourself. 01:10:45.300 --> 01:11:01.619 Uh it's I mean I I didn't understand that until our advanced Cicero study group during the pandemic where it was just like even just with three or four other people just talking about it together, totally enriches your your vocabulary. 01:11:01.779 --> 01:11:03.380 It expands your vocabulary. 01:11:03.619 --> 01:11:07.219 It helps you to see things that maybe you you didn't notice. 01:11:07.699 --> 01:11:12.500 But then most of the time it's you gotta smell other stuff that's not beer. 01:11:12.659 --> 01:11:12.899 Yeah. 01:11:12.979 --> 01:11:16.099 Uh because there is just tons of overlap. 01:11:16.420 --> 01:11:18.420 I mean it's it's fermentation. 01:11:18.500 --> 01:11:21.059 You can you can ferment a lot of different things. 01:11:21.139 --> 01:11:24.659 And so there's just always going to be some kind of overlap. 01:11:25.059 --> 01:13:12.579 And thankfully there are some there's so much overlap in these different industries partnering together and just having chocolate in beer you know is uh I I love that there's a lot more breweries that are doing things where it's we're releasing this set of six or seven beers and it's uh you know one uh a brewery here locally Bottle Logic did it and they did it with seven different vanilla varietals from different places and it was just it was again rather than a single hop it was single you know vanilla variety and it was it was much like this it it was very much like the the chocolate was just or the sorry the vanilla was just singing and and they just all had a different note to them that even in some cases may the beers be perceived to be sweeter drier uh you know have different textures uh and so it's this is no different the chocolate is chocolate is no different I find that kind of exercise very very helpful i i've noticed as a taster I struggle sometimes when I don't have comparative references so my weakest panel even when I passed the advanced exam was style discrimination because if you give me all four of the beers that are options here yes of course I could I think I can go through and say which is which and and compare them but one in isolation you don't have that that bracket on either side is to to you know reference to and so being able to do this kind of exercise where you're changing one thing and so that's the only real variable that you have to uh that that most of your focus can go to is a wonderful training experience. 01:13:12.659 --> 01:13:27.300 And Chris to what you were uh talking about from a texture standpoint I think one of

the reasons chocolate offers such a cool opportunity to evaluate texture is because the physical food changes format in your mouth. 01:13:27.539 --> 01:13:45.779 You know beer you're drinking as a liquid you're swallowing as a liquid you it's maybe going to foam up but all you have to to be able to evaluate it is just like all right the liquid is there I've got to figure out how to describe this that chocolate is starting as one thing and it is slowly melting and changing. 01:13:45.859 --> 01:13:52.100 And so you are getting that evolution of texture and you are kind of forced to contend with that during the tasting process. 01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:52.899 It's very cool. 01:13:53.220 --> 01:14:48.340 I like that a lot well uh last thing I want to talk about uh just on a kind of fun note you guys loved Doppelbach and uh you are you are trying to popularize uh Doppelbach you've got the hashtag on Instagram drink more Doppelbach where did this start well so it it it kind of has two main origins they they stem from a similar spot but we in all the studying that we've done Doppelbach from time to time ends up on a you know a style identification panel and it started as a casual joke where you know after the tasting evening is done whatever the samples that you're going back to you know or that you hadn't had in a while and you really like and we'd just be sitting there and be like man have you guys ever had Doppelbach before it's pretty good um and just you know kind of joking about it in in that way. 01:14:48.979 --> 01:15:01.460 I also remember early on being like staking out my claim that I already said use the phrase beer that tastes like beer and we use that usually to mean like macro american lager. 01:15:02.340 --> 01:15:08.019 And I I would make the claim in our study sessions I'd be like no Doppelbach is beer that tastes like beer. 01:15:08.260 --> 01:15:17.699 Macro macro lager is intentionally tastes like lit little else you know it's it's um it's it's built to not taste like much. 01:15:17.939 --> 01:15:57.619 And Doppelbach is so densely Munich malty that I was like this is this is what I when I taste it I think this is what the soul of beer is like this is the most beery beer that I could that I could possibly pick off of a shelf um and then it kind of morphed into this hilarious bit where we were just like you know not not only is Doppelbach delicious but you can just like get Weinstefner Corbinian at the store right now for$399 a 500 milliliter bottle and have a world class beer for a very low price compared to the way prices for a lot of things are going right now. 01:15:57.859 --> 01:16:29.619 And nobody's even going to try to stop you you it this there's little to no resistance yeah we just we and so yeah and then it was just like in every in you know hyper specific scenario we were just like more evidence has been gathered and even in this even in this hyper specific scenario they still will not stop you from and then that even morphed even further into hashtag everything is doppelbach where it was well Munich Dunkel you mean Munich Dunkel you you mean session doppelbach is is what you're talking about, right? 01:16:29.699 --> 01:17:08.899 Or you know uh that sort of thing so a few years ago I had a uh friend who was playing a concert at a dead end dive bar uh and it was one of those so so we go in I've never been in the bar before and they've got a couple things on tap but they had a uh bottle and can list and it was one of those things where I'm looking at it and I'm like what sales rep came in and convinced them to buy some of these beers this is not their this is not their scene and they had bottles of Corbinian for a couple bucks so we sat in this just shitty dive bar listening to my friend play music just drinking bottles of Corbinion all night. 01:17:09.060 --> 01:17:13.859 Uh great great memory what kind of reach have you had with drink more doppelback? 01:17:13.939 --> 01:18:24.739 Like I feel like it shows up in my feed fairly often I see other some other now and then yeah we are starting to get like a good solid like you know one to two people a day like posting and tagging us and we're you know we we've got kind of our like set of our you know small circle here where it's like okay make sure to tag everybody you know in this so that we can you know kind of continue to you know kind of have this something that's hardly a viral moment by you know most people's standards but um I mean for us it was viral enough that like I got us t-shirts made with the very first Instagram post with the hashtag on it like as the you know as the front of the t-shirt and hashtag drinkmore doppelback um on the back and it you know I I think it's the the other thing the other thing to me is I've started listening to a lot more kind of like where's the industry going and people's predictions for the year and so many people are predicting that like multi-beers are gonna be the beers of 2026 yet nobody nobody mentions that Doppelbach is specifically going to be a part of that to of that movement and to to that I just say you have you have missed the point. 01:18:24.899 --> 01:18:45.060 Like you this is yeah I just think it's it's got range in all sorts of different ways and like Chris said we believe that it's beer flavored beer and anybody who this reaches who thinks this is cool and helps them to rediscover this style like whatever reach we end up do having with it like to me that's the the most fun part. 01:18:45.380 --> 01:19:00.340 Do each of you have a single favorite Doppelbach I I I always claim that Ondex Doppelbach is my favorite with maybe Corbinian being the one B, you know those those vi for my heart uh the most for sure. 01:19:00.659 --> 01:19:21.380 Yeah I and I would say it's Corbinian um especially since I've had that in Germany at the brewery um and then I would say the other one is uh is celebrator and uh uh honestly it's probably because it's the one that I could

call the exact beer blind the most of all the Doppelpox during during our study time. 01:19:21.460 --> 01:19:27.060 So I just felt like I was just like really honed in on that and that it you know would always speak to me. 01:19:27.380 --> 01:19:27.859 That's great. 01:19:28.019 --> 01:19:30.979 Well hey ondex is why we have Trog's Troganator. 01:19:31.220 --> 01:19:35.140 So it it inspired our most popular American doppelbox. 01:19:35.380 --> 01:19:43.699 Yeah yeah and you can still get 12 packs of Troganators so that's an excellent way to hashtag drinkmore doppelbock is to buy 12 at a time. 01:19:44.019 --> 01:19:44.500 There you go. 01:19:44.659 --> 01:19:59.060 Hey they're coming out with a new year round American stout they're just bringing back all the classes wow I love it I love it yeah wow all right well scott and Chris thank you so much for hanging out with me tonight tasting some chocolate talking beer I love geeking out with you guys. 01:19:59.380 --> 01:20:12.260 Oh too much too much fun thank you so much for the for the invite so this has been great appreciate you David thank you huge thanks to Scott and Chris for hanging out and discussing this stuff with me. 01:20:12.500 --> 01:20:23.939 Just as they have been so open and honest about their own preparation processes for these exams they are both also equally eager to help others doing the same no matter where you are in your own journey. 01:20:24.100 --> 01:20:25.779 I hope that can be said of me as well. 01:20:26.340 --> 01:20:49.939 The goal of eliminating gatekeeping in beer isn't to pretend there was never anything on the other side of that exclusionary gate, but to instead provide access to knowledge for anyone who wants it while accepting everyone wherever they are on that path, even if they plan to stay where they are beer is for everyone everyone gets to enjoy it how they want and if that means growing in knowledge for you ask us anything you'd like. 01:20:51.220 --> 01:20:58.260 Some of the topics Scott and Chris and I discussed around flavor language tie back to some noteworthy past episodes of Bean to Barstool. 01:20:58.659 --> 01:21:11.699 The very first seed of this podcast was planted out of a talk I gave back in 2019 about culturally informed flavor vocabulary and how the tasting experience can bring us together to learn more about each other. 01:21:11.939 --> 01:21:15.380 And the very first episode of Bean to Barstool focused on that. 01:21:15.619 --> 01:21:18.340 A little while later I spoke with the inimitable Dr. 01:21:18.420 --> 01:21:18.579 J. 01:21:18.739 --> 01:21:21.140 Jackson Beckham about this in further detail. 01:21:21.300 --> 01:21:26.100 I will link to both of those past episodes in the show notes as well as my conversation with M. 01:21:26.260 --> 01:21:29.220 Souter who was mentioned in today's conversation. 01:21:29.779 --> 01:21:41.939 One quick craft chocolate note before we sign off I just saw that Gansett Craft Chocolate has released a Battlecry whiskey bar using a whiskey from Sons of Liberty Spirits. 01:21:42.019 --> 01:21:51.699 So they used a 2017 batch of Battlecry beer barrel finished whiskey soaked Peruvian chuncho cacao nibs in it and made a 70% bar out of it. 01:21:51.859 --> 01:22:00.500 It looks like it is only available out of their craft chocolate shop, not online if anybody's had a chance to try it I would love to hear what you thought about it. 01:22:00.739 --> 01:22:03.859 Thanks so much to Scott and Chris for joining me on the show today. 01:22:04.019 --> 01:22:08.979 Thanks to everyone else for listening I hope you enjoyed this episode of Bean to Bar Store