رونوشت کامل Guest: Seth Holmes

There's just like in in all other sports, there's gonna be coaches that kind of hold your hands. 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:26.800 Sure. 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:34.319 And there's gonna be coaches that tell you to shut the fuck up and get to work because you are not going to get better unless you put the time in. 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:39.759 And if you, you know, you are paying me to make you get better, yeah. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.639 But you have to hold up your end of the deal. 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:44.560 I'm holding up my end of the deal. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:46.400 You have to put in the work to do it. 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:51.759 So sometimes you gotta be told shut up and kick the bag a hundred times. 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.479 Yeah, you know, yeah, it just it is what it is. 00:02:54.719 --> 00:03:00.639 What was it about Muay Thai that drew you, like versus other martial arts forms? 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:01.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:12.240 So um starting with that, whenever I was a kid, I really liked professional wrestling, the rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin and and Triple H and all those guys, right? 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.319 Hulk Hogan, just the the legends. 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:21.599 Yes, it was so cool, and it was something that as a kid, I used to do like the wrestling moves with like my older brother. 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:29.039 You know, we had a trampoline in our backyard and we would do backyard wrestling, and yeah, I would like choke slam my sister onto the couch and stuff like that. 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.039 Yeah, I'm sure your mom loved all of that. 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.479 Uh she she was always really supportive of it, to be honest with you. 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:35.360 Yeah. 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:42.159 Uh, but whenever this uh this pro wrestler, I I don't know if you're familiar with him at all, uh, Brock Lesnar. 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:49.039 Yeah, when he got into pro wrestling, I was like, holy shit, like this guy, he was my absolute favorite. 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:57.360 I mean, he is just like this unstoppable machine that can pick up guys like the big show who you know they build him as weighing like 500 pounds. 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:04.319 There's no way he was 500 pounds, but right he would just pick him up on his shoulders and like throw him over his head, all sorts of crazy stuff. 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:11.840 I was like enamored with this guy, yeah, you know, yeah, like holy shit, this dude is like the like they had to have like made him in a laboratory, yeah. 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:13.680 Yeah, he was just awesome. 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.279 I think it was around like 2007 or 2008, something like that. 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:21.680 He left the WWE and he he stopped professional wrestling. 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:23.920 He went to the NFL for a couple of years. 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.920 I think he played for the Vikings, but after that, he went to the UFC. 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.680 And when he went to the UFC, I stopped watching pro wrestling. 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:34.079 That's why I started watching MMA. 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:34.720 Interesting. 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:34.959 Okay. 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:37.199 After that, it was like, whoa. 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:51.759 You know, yeah, Muay Thai is the main basis of striking for mixed martial arts, and the reason why is because so it it goes back to Thailand, it's Thai boxing, it's so ingrained in the culture over there. 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:57.279 I mean, some some kids, like actual kids, start fighting at like six, seven, eight years old. 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:58.639 Like we do here for like wrestling. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:04:59.279 Exactly. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:04:59.920 Yeah. 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:05.439 So it's so it it is just such a part of their culture, but they they call it the art of eight limbs. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:14.800 So it is uh punching like boxing, it's kicking like kickboxing, but it's also uh striking with elbows. 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:16.800 Okay, striking with knees. 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:22.319 Uh so you know, you know, you have two fists, two elbows, two knees, two feet. 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:42.319 So it's it's the the art of eight limbs, but it also involves clinching, like uh like stand-up wrestling kind of yeah, sweeping, tripping, using your opponent's leverage against them, uh, outsmarting your opponent by you know setting up certain combinations with your hands and feet and then switching it. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:48.160 You know, you hit them with the same combination a couple of times, right, and then you switch it up on them and they don't know how to defend it. 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.720 So there's there's a mental game to it as well. 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:51.360 Gotcha. 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:56.399 And uh I I've done jujitsu, I've done some wrestling and um that kind of stuff. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.160 Uh for some reason with me, like rolling around on the ground. 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:16.319 Here's the thing I know enough of grappling to where if I'm ever in a situation on the street, you know, and I have to use it, nine times out of ten, the guy that you're fighting, if you do have, god forbid, you get in a street fight, they're not gonna know anything. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:17.839 I'm already way ahead of that. 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:18.399 Right. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.920 For me, what is most fun is striking. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:23.279 It's just so much fun. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:23.680 Okay. 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:32.399 It you know, from the the jab to elbows and then knees and kicking and and pivoting and and all the footwork involved. 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:34.959 And it's just so much fun. 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:36.800 That's what I really gravitated towards. 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:45.199 So after getting sober and and everything, I was like, man, I I I really want to

do something more active, something more than just lifting weights and doing the cardio stuff. 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.439 I want to get into a contact sport again. 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.399 My knees cannot handle running for 40-minute halves anymore with rugby. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:52.720 Right. 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:58.079 Uh so uh initially I got into boxing, I did that for like maybe a year, year and a half. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:59.279 It wasn't nearly as fun. 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.160 I wanted to learn how to kick and and all of that stuff. 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:06.160 So so then, yeah, so then I switched to MMA and and Muay Thai training. 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:06.720 Okay, yeah. 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:07.680 I love that. 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:12.800 Let's before we dive in, we met because we have a mutual acquaintance, Caitlin. 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:19.839 Yeah, and it's funny because you started talking about uh professional wrestling and it was like, oh, have you seen Jason wrestle yet? 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.120 Or no, I haven't. 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:22.000 No, no, no. 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:22.399 Okay. 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:27.439 I did it, I got to go to his like first sort of you know match that he actually was involved in. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:28.879 That was a ton of fun. 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.360 Yeah, I haven't really watched uh pro wrestling in like 20 years. 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:35.360 Okay, yeah, it's been a very long time. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.319 Well, I haven't actually in a really long time either. 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.319 It's funny, I probably stopped right around the same time you stopped for totally different reasons. 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.720 Yeah, but I got to go like just in person. 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:46.800 That it's a wild experience, by the way. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:47.519 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:58.720 Like, and I've not done like WWE level stuff, like I never went in person, but like to go and watch Jason and like watch all the people who are so into it, like still like into it is kind of awesome. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:06.399 When I was really young, my stepfather took me and my sister to go see WWF Monday Night Raw. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.160 I don't even think they were WWE. 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:08.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:14.160 I think they were still WWF Monday Night Raw, and that was like one of the coolest things ever. 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:14.959 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:15.279 Yeah. 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:16.879 Well, we met because of Caitlin. 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:22.160 She recommended, she reached out to me and she was like, okay, so I have a person that I think would be really, really good for the pod. 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.639 And then intros me to you. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:33.120 And I thought it was so interesting because she didn't actually say, Oh, so he's this guy that was on Inkmaster. 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.120 She was like, He's he's my tattoo guy. 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.679 That's how, that's like sort of how that came about. 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:52.080 And so, you know, I find out about the Inkmasters a little bit later because I go to your socials, I start looking up who you are, and then I actually get to talk to you and come to quickly find out, like, while that's so cool, it's only such a small piece. 00:08:52.240 --> 00:09:02.799 Like, I think probably anybody who's listened to this point and is already hearing how you're talking about Muay Thai, and you have this sort of all-in mentality about so many aspects of your life. 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:03.759 It's like everything. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.679 And I think that, and so that's what we're going to be talking about today. 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:12.799 And we'll we're gonna touch on a bunch of different sort of subtopics, but that's sort of the general topic. 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:16.799 So on that note, would love it if you would give a brief intro of yourself. 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:17.840 Yeah, sure. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:19.679 Uh my name's Seth Holmes. 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:24.240 I have been tattooing professionally for 13 years. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:32.000 In February, it'll be uh 14, and I've been working in the industry, uh, the tattoo industry for about 17 years now. 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:39.360 And that's the being a finalist on season 17 of Inkmaster is the thing that people most kind of recognize me for. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:40.159 Very cool. 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:50.879 So I want to start with Inkmasters because it's like the thing I think you probably talk about most, I would guess, in interviews and podcast type scenarios. 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:56.480 Uh, and like I said, it's you know, it's very interesting, but perhaps not even the most interesting thing about you. 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.159 Talk a little bit about how old you were when you started tattooing. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.960 So you said it's about 17 years, but how old were you when you started? 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:12.480 So I started working in a shop about 17 years ago, but uh I didn't start tattooing until about like four years after I actually started working at a shop. 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:12.960 Okay. 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:21.679 Uh originally I was working at a shop and like working the desk and uh doing like summer help and stuff like that at a local shop that I got tattooed at. 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:23.200 Uh, it was good for two things. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:29.840 One, I was like the the main thing that I was doing at that time was I was actually the vocalist of a uh metal band. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:39.840 And uh that was a good way for me to work, make money under the table, and I didn't have to worry about hiding my visible tattoos. 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:40.720 Yeah. 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.600 So I didn't have to wear like a uniform

or anything, you know. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:52.639 So I also worked part-time at Hot Topic because again, you know, with that store, they're like, oh, you're, you know, 19 years old and you have a neck tattoo. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:53.440 That's actually cool. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:04.399 That might help like, you know, get kids to buy more stuff if you like look the part, you know, like oh, you're the vocalist of a metal band, you have uh, you know, a full sleeve, a hand tattoo, a neck tattoo. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:12.080 Yeah, let's put you behind the register and get you to, you know, sell a bunch of jeans and t-shirts and like albums to kids, you know. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:22.240 So uh no, I I started tattooing a few years after I started working in a shop, and um, it wasn't even out of like a true love for like artwork or anything like that. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.480 I fell in love with tattooing before I actually fell in love with like really drawing. 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:40.639 I started tattooing out of necessity because with my band it had broken up, and like 99% of that was my fault because I was very heavily involved with drugs and drinking, and I was hiding a lot of it. 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:42.879 I mean, you know, we would party as a band and stuff. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:43.440 Sure. 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:52.399 I I was just a complete asshole to everybody and like overly controlling about every little thing in the band, and so it's it's completely my fault. 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:58.159 But whenever that fell apart, you know, bills were stacking up and I didn't know what to do. 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:06.960 And I did have a true love for tattooing, for getting tattooed, for having the look of being very heavily tattooed. 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:17.440 You know, I grew up looking at bikers and rappers and athletes that are just covered in tattoos, and I was like, yeah, I like I knew from the time I was a kid that I was going to look like that. 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:24.960 So I was in love with the craft of tattooing before I was in love with art. 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:33.600 So almost everything that I know about art, composition, color theory, all of that, I've learned through tattooing instead of the other way around. 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:33.919 Yeah. 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:45.200 Where most people go to art school first and then they go, Oh, how can I apply my love for art in a way where I'll still love my job and I'm not working at a desk doing like graphic design and stuff like that. 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:46.960 Oh, maybe I'll get into tattooing. 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:47.360 Yeah. 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:47.679 Yeah. 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.960 For the teabags who are listening, I this is the one time I have ever lamented the fact that this is audio only. 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:59.039 But you can you'll see pictures of Seth if you look him up on his Instagram. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:00.480 But he is tatted. 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:06.399 Like I'm looking at see face tat, I see like one on the side of your head, neck, like yeah. 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:08.799 So he's um he's not exaggerating. 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:10.159 That is that is the look. 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:11.200 Heavily tattooed. 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:12.159 Heavily tattooed. 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:12.559 Yeah. 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.559 How long had you been tattooing when you were asked to do Inkmasters? 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:18.559 Uh, which time? 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:19.840 I oh yeah. 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:21.840 I didn't know you had done multiple. 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:27.759 Yeah, for a for a period of time I worked at a shop in Massachusetts and uh up in Northampton. 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:36.639 And um, every year or so that I worked there, they would email asking me if I wanted to talk about doing the show. 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:37.200 Okay. 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:45.519 And uh I just always blew it off because, well, to be honest with you, I'd uh they tell you, like, you know, we want to talk to you about it. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.360 Oh, okay, cool, let's talk about it. 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:54.639 Okay, so you know, if you make it to the finale, you'll be gone filming for two months, and you can't do this, you can't do that, you know. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:01.039 Um, you can only drink whenever you're not filming, you can't uh like you can't do any drugs or anything like that. 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:09.120 And I was so far into my party phase that I'll be honest with you, I did not want to take two months off of doing drugs and drinking. 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:09.679 Wow. 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.960 So I kind of told them to go fuck themselves a few times. 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:13.679 Oh my god. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:14.879 In a nice and professional way. 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:15.919 Sure, sure, sure, yeah. 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:24.879 And then uh a couple of years had gone by after I got sober, I didn't hear anything from them, but with uh with COVID, it kind of like put a halt to production. 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:32.559 Then after getting sober and moving back to Pittsburgh, getting my life together, it's like, you know what? 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.360 If they reach out again, maybe I'll go for it. 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:36.080 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:41.440 Like I'm finally in a good place where you know I'm in a good mental health space. 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.960 I I I'm financially stable enough that if I have to take two months off of work, because they pay you dog shit. 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:47.200 Yeah. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.240 I mean, they pay you nothing. 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:48.879 Yeah. 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:52.559 Um, they they they pay you, but it's very, very little. 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:52.879 Right. 00:14:53.120 --> 00:15:03.039 So you're you're basically doing it for the exposure and for the like

if you have the competitive edge to get to that finale and and compete for$250,000. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:03.679 Right. 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:04.960 That's what you're doing it for. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.600 So I was like, yeah, why why not? 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:17.279 And then I yeah, I I got an email uh about you know, talking about the the next season, and all of a sudden from there, the first phone call went really well. 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:26.799 They set up for a Zoom or or like a Skype interview or something like that, which was going to be chopped up and edited and sent to producers. 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:27.279 Okay. 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:40.720 And then of all they don't even tell you how many people they talk to, but they you know, they talk to a lot of people that get sent to casting producers for the company, and then they hand select who's going to be on the show. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:41.279 Okay. 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:43.440 There was just something about it. 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.639 I I just like I knew it. 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.519 Like I knew whenever I did the Zoom interview that I nailed it. 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:49.840 Yeah. 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:55.360 And I had I I was basing everything in my life off of going to that. 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:55.759 Yeah. 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:56.240 Yeah. 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:03.919 Before even being called to say, like, hey, you've been selected, because you know, more than half of the people that actually do the Zoom interview don't get selected for the show. 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:04.399 Sure. 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:05.039 I just knew it. 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:05.519 You knew it. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:10.240 I I told my assistant, I was like, mark out this time in April to this time in June. 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.200 I'm gonna be gone. 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.759 I'm going to be in Vancouver, you know, like I'm gonna be filming this show. 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.639 And then, yeah, the you know, one of the main PAs, uh aunt, she's awesome. 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:22.240 Yeah, yeah, she's incredible. 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.320 She calls me and she goes, Well, you know, just wanted to let you know that you were selected for the show. 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.320 And it was like, All right, I'll see you at the finale. 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:32.320 And she goes, Oh, you're you think very highly of yourself, don't you? 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.120 It's like, no, I it's not that I think highly of myself. 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.720 I know that I'm going to get to the finale and I know I'm going to win. 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:43.120 And was it just like one of those like the universe just made you feel that way? 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.360 Or is it because you know how you're built? 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.200 Like, because you're super competitive. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:48.639 Yeah, I think that's what it is. 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:54.639 Once

I got sober, my my drive for competition came back very, very strongly. 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:55.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:57.440 Talk a little bit about the process. 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:04.160 Like, so you're saying April to June, so you're only filming for like a few months, and that's that's start to finish. 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:05.200 You film for two months. 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:06.000 Two months, okay. 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.200 And it's start to finish. 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.279 They don't do a live finale anymore like they used to. 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:10.000 Oh, okay. 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:15.440 Yeah, they they used to do this thing where if you made it to the finale, then you would go back for X amount of weeks. 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:15.839 Okay. 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:22.079 And you would do a uh like a full back piece split up in multiple sessions over time. 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:30.000 And now what they do is they film it all the way through, and the master back piece that you do at the end of the show, you have to do in two days back to back. 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:30.559 What? 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:32.880 How long would that typically like take you? 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.440 A back piece is usually anywhere between like six and eight sessions. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:38.000 Okay. 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.039 And you have to depending on the size of the back. 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:47.839 Yep, and you have to do an entire back piece in two 12-hour sessions back to back. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.400 You only get 24 hours to do an entire back. 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:59.279 And while that has to be wildly uncomfortable for you as a tattoo artist, it also would have to be wildly uncomfortable for a person getting tattooed. 00:17:59.440 --> 00:17:59.759 Yeah. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:00.559 That's crazy. 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:00.799 Yeah. 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:04.400 How many people do they start with, like contestant-wise or yeah, contestant wise? 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:06.000 It's always different every season. 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:16.240 Sometimes it's like, you know, oh, we we brought 30 people and now you all have to do a tattoo marathon, and we're only picking 15 of you. 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:16.799 Oh, okay. 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.359 So 15 of you are getting eliminated right away, you know. 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:28.400 Uh so it it's sometimes it's like, oh, well, we're, you know, we start with 16 and then all 16 of you just start the competition right now. 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:28.880 Okay. 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:33.039 With my season, it was a little bit of a mix between the two. 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:38.240 So we started with 15 people, but there was only 12 spots on the show available. 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:45.440 And we had to do a three-part test to be selected to even get onto the show. 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:47.920 What did the test encompass? 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:54.559

It was like um, so we we all go up and we meet the judges and we're in this giant warehouse. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.119 Yeah. 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.759 And it turns out that this warehouse also had a scene from The Last of Us. 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:00.240 Okay. 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.279 Uh filmed in it. 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:07.119 It was like this subway scene where Ellie was like going through and like shooting a bunch of like mushroom zombies in the head and stuff like that. 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:13.119 So we're we're in that same warehouse, and there's a whole bunch of whiteboards on both sides of us. 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.519 Okay. 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.279 So there's 15 whiteboards set up. 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.480 There's 15 of us. 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:27.599 The host, Joel, says, uh, to be an Inkmaster, you have to be able to, you have to be able to draw, you have to be able to replicate, and you have to be able to do one more thing. 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.240 I think he said like adapt or something like that. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:41.680 So the first thing that we had to do was we had to draw on a whiteboard using dry erase markers, something out of our head with no reference. 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:42.880 Yeah. 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:45.920 Draw drawing without reference is very, very difficult. 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:47.440 And do you remember what you drew? 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.440 Yeah, I drew like a bird and a flower. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:50.400 You know, yeah. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:56.480 But the the really difficult thing about that challenge was with dry erase markers, they start drying out very, very quickly. 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:10.720 So okay, typically what I do in my drawing process is I start with a light color like a yellow, and then I refine that with uh like a medium color, like an orange, and then I'll refine that on top of it with a darker color like a dark red. 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:11.119 Okay. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:11.519 Okay. 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.319 So I'll get the basic shape first with the yellow. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:22.079 I'll start mapping out my design in the orange, and then in the dark red, I'll go through and finally refine. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.559 Okay. 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.799 Well, I learned very quickly that first of all, you only have five hours to do this. 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.319 You can't do that with dry erase. 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:40.559 I laid out, I took like an hour to lay out this design in yellow to get the basic shape, and then I started working with an orange dry erase marker over top of it, and it started erasing all of the yellow. 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:51.440 I was as soon as you started saying it, I was like, oh shit, that's like that's how you get stuck on dry erase marker off of your dry erase board, is to take another marker and just go right over top of it. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:52.079 I didn't know that. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.759 I hadn't worked with dry erase markers since I was in like sure middle school. 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:56.720 Yeah, why would you have? 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:57.359 Yeah, right. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:58.880 So I had no idea. 00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.519 Oh god. 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.720 So I start freaking out. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.119 Sure. 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:08.720 So then I just take a black marker and I just start drawing over stuff and I'm trying to like get my outline, you know, for the tattoo idea. 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:20.400 Uh, and then uh I go through and I'm trying to fill in solid areas of color, but as I'm filling in the solid areas, the marker is drying out and then erasing everything that I just filled in. 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:20.799 Yep. 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.480 So my my my whiteboard drawing looks fucking hideous. 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:24.960 Oh no. 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.000 It looks so bad. 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.799 Oh no. 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:33.920 And from everybody that did a dry erase drawing, they only picked like eight of us to actually do a tattoo. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:34.480 Wow. 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:40.240 And then only a few people of those eight actually got a shop, like got a spot on the show from that. 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:40.559 Really? 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.519 So that was the first part of the first test. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.000 The second part was replicate. 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.079 And Inkmaster has to be able to replicate. 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.119 So you have to do a uh realism tattoo. 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:51.599 Okay. 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:58.880 Everybody who didn't get a shop and then had to do a realism tattoo based off of an animal from like your hometown. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.839 There's no good animals in Pittsburgh. 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:02.799 What am I gonna do? 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.880 A squirrel or a white-tailed deer. 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:06.559 Right. 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.000 So I was like, screw it. 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:09.599 I'm gonna think outside of the box. 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.000 My high school mascot was a tiger. 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:13.519 So I'm gonna do a tiger. 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:13.839 Yeah. 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.960 It's like, oh, you know, growing up, going to the Pittsburgh Zoo. 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:17.440 Right. 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:18.480 You see tigers. 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:21.759 It's like, look, if you want to see an animal in Pittsburgh, you go to the fucking zoo. 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:22.160 Yeah. 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:23.599 So I did that. 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:29.279 And things, things were getting in my head like very, very quickly, right at the very start of the show. 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.839 Because I was listening to everybody who got to tattoo the day before, which I didn't get to. 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:36.720 And they were

like, that clock is no joke. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.240 You only have five hours. 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:47.440 Like you go way smaller than you think that you're able to do, you know, like try to work in some like design elements to try to like hide stuff. 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:48.799 I was like, oh fuck. 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.039 So like the pressure really does get to you. 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.279 It got to me, but in such a weird way. 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.039 I'm a very fast tattoo. 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:55.519 Really? 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.119 I do huge tattoos in five to six hours daily. 00:22:59.279 --> 00:22:59.440 Okay. 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:06.160 And I was doing that every day leading up to the show because I knew that's that's what the show is just from watching it for so long. 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:12.960 You have to do these huge, bright, bold tattoos, and you only get five or six hours to do it based off of the challenge. 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.039 I did not trust my speed. 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:15.839 Oh no. 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:21.279 So I cram everything into this tiny little realistic tiger head tattoo. 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:22.799 It's only like this big. 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.559 It it, you know, maybe four and a half, five inches tall. 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:27.440 It's tiny. 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.799 I still like the tattoo, it was still a good tattoo, but they chewed my ass apart for that. 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:33.440 Really? 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.000 Yeah, because I was done in like two and a half hours. 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.200 Oh my god. 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.279 I got done with the tattoo so fast. 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.119 Um like worked against you a little bit. 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.200 Yeah, so I still didn't get a shot. 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:53.359 So it's like now they're now we're down to the third part of the the first challenge, yeah, and this is the final chance that I'll even be able to compete on the show. 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:54.000 Right. 00:23:54.240 --> 00:24:06.480 And so the the third part of the challenge was I I think it was called Adapt, where we had to take our original idea from our dry erase marker design. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:15.759 Yes, but now we finally get to draw on paper with reference, and now we finally get to show them what we are actually capable of. 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:25.359 And I took that bird and that flower and I totally flipped it and redrew it and did this huge neo-traditional tattoo on the side of this girl's calf. 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.599 Uh, and it like blew the judges away. 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:29.759 They were like, dude, this shit is bulletproof. 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:31.599 This is exactly what we wanted to see. 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.119 This thing is fucking killer. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.440 Color theory's on point, foreground, middle ground, background, it tells a story. 00:24:37.519

--> 00:24:39.920 Like this, this is what we want to see from everybody. 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:41.599 And then I I finally got a shop. 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:43.039 It was like right at the very end. 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:46.960 Were you like relieved, or were you like, yeah, I knew, I knew I was gonna get on? 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.680 Well, okay, so well, here's the thing. 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:58.319 I knew that I was gonna get on whenever I was doing the tattoo, and during that that process, they have the other people who already got a shop. 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:07.279 Okay, they come, they have them come through and look at what everybody is tattooing during the process, and they try to build some drama, make you sweat a little bit, you know. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.440 But everybody that was coming over was like, holy shit, dude, this rules. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.720 This is really cool. 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.720 And then I was like, okay, nice. 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.200 Not not that I can coast, you can't coast. 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:17.519 Sure. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:18.960 You can never coast in a competition. 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.000 But now I was like, okay, I could take a breath. 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:22.720 Yeah. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.920 I know I'm getting a shop with this tattoo. 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:26.319 Yeah. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:26.640 Yeah. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.880 So from there, how that's and that's just to get in, right? 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:32.720 So that's like one of the 12 spots. 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:33.119 Yep. 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.799 And so the competing, you get like tell for the teabags, like, tell them how far you got. 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:40.400 Uh, I was a finalist. 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:41.680 I made it all the way to the finale. 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:42.000 Yeah. 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:43.599 So it was you and you and one other person. 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:46.000 Uh no, there was actually four people in the finale. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:46.400 Yeah. 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:48.799 They typically typically they only do three. 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:53.200 The reason why they did four this year was because the the competition was stacked. 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:54.640 Like, take me out of it. 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.319 It is talent-wise, it's the best season of Inkmaster. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:25:58.880 Really? 00:25:58.960 --> 00:25:59.279 Yeah. 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.039 Take me completely out of it. 00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:05.519 Everybody that was there, all 15 of us were hitters. 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:11.519 So because the competition was so stacked, they were like, This year, we're, it was actually a twist at the end. 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:11.680 Yeah. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:20.559 Because everybody is like, you know, we we get to the episode before the finale, there's five of us left, and we're all thinking, there's only three spots. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.519 What are we gonna do? 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:21.920 Right. 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:23.440 You know, yeah, who's going home? 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:23.759 Right. 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:25.839 All of that stuff starts playing in your mind. 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.440 Like, did you do enough? 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.799 And I knew I was making it to the finale based off of my critiques. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.039 Okay. 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:34.720 Okay. 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.440 Yeah. 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.960 Uh I had no doubt in my mind whatsoever. 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:46.799 But so because they did four, then uh me and Luca were eliminated, and then it came down to Ishnard and Matt. 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:55.200 And then they had like a special guest judge, so it comes down to like five people who basically get a vote as to who wins, and then Matt ended up winning. 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:55.599 Okay. 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:56.079 Yeah. 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.160 And so you said it's like a$250,000 prize for the winner. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:02.400 And do does anybody get anything else? 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.480 Are there any, are there any like prizes for second, third, fourth? 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.519 No, no, no, no. 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:15.359 You either so you either win or you get the exposure of millions of people from all over the world. 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:16.559 It's an international show. 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:16.880 Right. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.480 From all over the world seeing your work. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:18.799 Right. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:24.720 Uh actually I had the guy that did the voiceover for me in Portuguese for the Brazilian audience. 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:25.119 Oh god. 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:26.559 He hit me up on Instagram. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.200 No way. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.240 Yeah, and he was like, hey man, I'm doing the voiceover for you. 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.319 I don't know if you win yet, but I'm just like, I I love your story. 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:35.839 I really hope that you win. 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.160 Not just because I do your voice, but just because I I love everything about you and like I love your tattoos and your drive. 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.000 And uh man, I just really hope you win. 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:44.319 Yeah. 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:45.759 So that was the wildest thing to me. 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:46.720 It was that's so cool. 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:51.200 I never knew that I was gonna have voice translators, right? 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.240 You know, or like voiceovers in other languages. 00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:00.319 Yeah, I just had no idea outside of the US and Canada how how much this show actually had a reach. 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:00.799 Yeah. 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:06.240 It it's actually really interesting for me to hear about it too, because like, I mean, I know that the show

exists. 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.720 I would catch like pieces of it here and there. 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:10.400 It wasn't something I followed. 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.240 I have tattoos, but I'm not like a big, like I just don't follow, right? 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:20.559 Yeah, and so I knew it was like a big show, like everybody knows about Inkmasters, but 17 seasons, yeah. 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.880 Like that, that I think was shocking to me. 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.839 I don't think I realized how long that it had been on. 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:31.920 And I think hearing about the international component of it as well, I think that was mind-blowing for me. 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.440 Yeah, the the winner on my season was from Australia. 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:36.160 Oh, okay. 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:36.559 Yeah. 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:42.559 Ishnard was originally from Brazil, but owns a shop in Dublin, Ireland. 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.000 Uh, and and Luca is uh from Montreal. 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.400 So I was the last American. 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.119 Wow. 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.799 I was the last American standing, and I was the yeah, wow. 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:54.960 Yeah, very cool experience. 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:58.240 Let's go back in time a little bit. 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.880 I want to talk about your childhood a bit. 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:01.359 Okay. 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.640 So let's start with where were you born? 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.119 And because you moved around quite a bit as a kid. 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:07.359 Yeah. 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:09.039 So let's talk a little bit about that. 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.440 How did you end up in Pittsburgh? 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:13.119 Uh, okay. 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.640 This is a very long story, so I'll try to keep it as concise as possible. 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.119 It's okay. 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:24.960 I was actually born in Stoneboro in Mercer County, and my mom always jokes that I was born in a chicken coop. 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:29.039 Uh because I I wasn't actually born in a hospital. 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:34.720 I was born at a midwife's uh like a midwife center, or but I can't remember what they call them. 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:45.279 But so yeah, I was born like to a midwife, and it was like actually like like the the area where they did like the births was converted from an old chicken coop. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:46.400 Oh my god. 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.880 So like that's the joke is like I was born in a chicken coop, you know? 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:51.519 Yep. 00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.319 But when I was younger, we we moved around a lot. 00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:04.880 My biological father is a very kooky individual, like undiagnosed neurological issues for sure. 00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:12.640 Delusions of grandeur, delusions of thinking that the uh the end times

are always always coming. 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:13.039 Yes. 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.680 Um delusions of the government is coming after him, you know, that kind of stuff. 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.079 So we we traveled around a lot. 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:25.039 My younger sister was born in Fort Worth, Texas, so we lived there for a while. 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:29.279 So that was in '92 that she was born there. 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:49.200 After the I was too young to remember, obviously, but from the like stories that my mom tells, it was like after the Waco stuff happened, yeah, because there may or may not have been some involvement in like the David Koresh kind of stuff. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:49.599 Sure. 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.880 My mom was like, You gotta get us the fuck out of here. 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:53.200 Yeah. 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:55.759 Because Waco is not that far from Fort Worth. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:05.839 So after that, we ended up moving to Anchorage, Alaska, and that's kind of where all my first memories of being a very young child all stem from. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:06.160 Okay. 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:07.519 Okay. 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:07.839 Yeah. 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.559 And you're there with and you're both your parents, right? 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.000 Your dad was was still with you guys. 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:12.160 Yes. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:12.480 Yeah. 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:13.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:22.480 So he was like physically, verbally abusive to the whole family, uh, just not a very good living situation. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:32.559 And one day he comes home and there's an RV, and we're just packing up and we're living all across the country. 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:33.759 Oh wow. 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.319 We're driving all over the place. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.640 His story is really dodgy. 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:43.119 There's no real reason as to why. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:52.559 But long story short, we end up going to a spot in Beaver County, which is his adoptive mother. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:54.240 So, like, in a way, my grandmother. 00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:54.720 Okay. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:00.640 We go to her house, and he ends up getting arrested like in the driveway. 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:02.000 Oh wow. 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:02.400 Yeah. 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:07.839 And for what so we drove from Anchorage to Beaver County, Pennsylvania. 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.160 Yeah. 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.160 Like just an hour north of Pittsburgh. 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:10.640 Right. 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:12.640 And he ends up getting arrested. 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:22.640 And there was some uh like financial kind of embezzlement stuff from the company that he was working for. 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:40.160 And as far as I understand, the reason why that was done was because he had a severe gambling addiction and needed large sums of money

to pay off like loan sharks who were looking for him and that kind of stuff. 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:41.599 So so yeah. 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:48.160 So I lived in an RV with a fugitive uh biological father. 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:52.480 Uh how old were you when so let's go let's go back to Texas for a second. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.319 I know you said you were too young to remember any of that. 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:55.200 I was two. 00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:56.000 You were too young. 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:57.359 I was born I was born in ninety. 00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:57.839 Okay. 00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.200 My sister was born in ninety two. 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.920 So you were in Texas, like you were two when you were in Texas, two two when you leave Texas, right? 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:04.559 Two or three? 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:05.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:05.680 Yeah. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:06.000 Okay. 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:06.240 Yeah. 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:07.440 And so how long were you with? 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:14.960 I mean, we may have moved to Texas before that, but um, like like it, I don't think that we like moved there and then moved out in the same year. 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:15.440 Right. 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.920 You know, I I was too young to remember, so we may have moved there like right after I was born. 00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:21.680 I don't I have no idea. 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:26.160 All I know is my sister was born in Fort Worth in uh in 92. 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.200 That's that's all I know. 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.640 And then you move away. 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:29.200 Yeah. 00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:30.000 Oh yeah. 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:32.960 But my mom was like, She was like, peace out, we're done. 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:33.920 Okay. 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:36.960 And so yeah, not getting involved in that. 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:37.279 Yeah. 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:37.759 Yeah. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:46.000 But you had you had mentioned that there was, you're pretty certain, like some religious fanaticism at the core of some of your dad's stuff anyway, right? 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:47.519 Yeah, there there always has been. 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:53.200 I mean, one of the last like voicemails I remember him leaving me, because I I haven't talked to him since I was maybe 15 or 16. 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:53.839 Okay, yeah. 00:33:54.079 --> 00:34:10.639 But one of the last voicemails he left me was like, Hey, you know, like I know that you don't want anything to do with me, but I need you to know that the global flood is coming, there's gonna be a massive typhoon, and that you need to stock up on canned goods and bottled water and all this. 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.679 Surely enough, global flood never happened, right? 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:25.920 You know, but it's just it's always one of those things, you know, he believes that like the government is putting microchips in the produce, he wants to grow his own produce so that he knows that the government's not tracking him and all that crazy shit. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:26.559 Right, right. 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:27.119 Yeah, okay. 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:30.960 Yeah, and so by the time you're back in Beaver County, how old are you? 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:46.639 I think seven because then me and my siblings were put through the foster care system for a minute after he was arrested because he had told the cops that my mother was involved, which was a complete lie. 00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:47.599 Right, right, right. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:53.679 And it took a while for like the charges against her, so like she was taken in too, you know. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:55.199 Yeah, so you have to investigate. 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:55.920 Right, right. 00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:06.159 So it took a while to investigate, and during that process, we were I remember we stayed with my uncle for a very short period of time in, I believe, Wyoming. 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:12.239 And but I I was so young, I can't remember if that was before or after being in the foster system. 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:19.840 I'm assuming we were put into the foster system first, and then my uncle was like, okay, we'll we'll take him in for a little bit of time. 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:26.079 So yeah, we we were in like the I do remember the the foster family being like physically abusive too. 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:26.880 Wow. 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:27.679 Yeah. 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:31.679 Like, so what are you doing for school at this point? 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.280 Like, were you did he like allow you to go to school? 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:39.519 We were doing home homeschooling, like hooked on phonics got it kind of shit. 00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:40.159 Got it. 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:40.559 Okay. 00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:46.639 And then um after my mom got out, we were able to go live with her again. 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:52.400 So then we're back in Beaver County and then we start going to like regular regular school school, yeah. 00:35:52.559 --> 00:36:03.360 And did this so all the moving around and the homeschool style learning that you were doing, did that impact like how when what grade you were able to start in, or were you able to just go in and no? 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:04.639 I was I was able to go in. 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.840 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:06.559 Nice. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:08.639 And then what kind of a kid were you? 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:10.480 Were you like, were you good in school? 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.679 Were you like playing sports when you were little? 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:15.760 No, I I wasn't playing sports. 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:17.920 I'd I wanted to, but we were so poor. 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:23.519 I mean, we were living in a trailer, yeah, you know, we were so poor that I couldn't even afford like football gear and stuff like

that. 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:29.519 So my sports were like backyard wrestling and skateboarding, and you know what I mean? 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.960 So I was still pretty active whenever I was younger. 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:36.079 It was all things that we could do like relatively cheap. 00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:36.559 Sure. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.679 Yeah, sure. 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.280 And what about like what kind of student were you? 00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.079 I was, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I was a pretty good student. 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:44.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.039 Yeah, I graduated with like good grades and everything. 00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:47.519 Yeah. 00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:56.639 The only times I ever got in trouble were whenever I would get done with my schoolwork faster than the majority of everybody else in the class, and then I would start fucking around. 00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.119 Of course. 00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:57.920 Yes. 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:04.079 Or like got into a couple of fights growing up, but who doesn't as a as a young boy? 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:12.639 But yeah, I mean, other than that, I like I did I ruffled some feathers a few times for wearing like offensive t-shirts, you know what I mean? 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.519 Yes, yes, of course, that kind of stuff. 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:21.119 Like I remember I came into school one day with uh I had a I had a shirt that just had like a skull on it. 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.960 And they gave me a bunch of shit for that. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.960 Oh yes, those back in those days they still could do that, would do that. 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:30.559 Yeah, yeah, that's why you have one under the skin on your face, dude. 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:32.480 It's like, yeah, everybody's got one. 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:33.119 I don't know what to do. 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:34.719 Your meat suit goes on top of it. 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:40.239 Yeah, so I think I wore a shirt with like a like a revolver on it or something one time, and they were like, no, no, you can't do it. 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:41.280 That'll get you. 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:42.239 Yes, yes. 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.159 So what about like friend groups? 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:45.519 Did you make friends easily? 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:48.079 Did you have like a good core group of friends? 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.960 Uh a tight group of friends. 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:55.119 I'd I'll be honest with you, I'd I kinda here's the thing. 00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:09.519 Once I started getting into like high school and I started like drinking Robotussin before school, yes, I'd I don't have a ton of memories of it, but I'd I don't remember having any like strong beef with anybody or any type of like group. 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:20.320 The school that I went to, there wasn't a whole lot of like oh, the the jocks don't really hang out with like the whatever, you know. 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.639 Yeah, there were clicks, obviously. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:34.239 There's always gonna be clicks in in high school, but I mean I remember playing hacky sack with like the the weird kids who you know would wear like pants that were way too tight. 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.960 Um, but then I would also, you know, go to house parties where like the jocks were. 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:39.360 Yeah. 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.119 So I I didn't really care. 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.719 I just kind of tried to like get in where I fit in. 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:45.119 Yeah. 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.960 It does feel a little bit like your generation, I think, was getting away from some of that a little bit more. 00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:57.039 I know I've talked to even my generation, I'm Gen X, I'm like squarely in the middle of Gen X. 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:09.440 And even I would say in my generation, there was a difference between older Gen X and like younger almost Xennials, where that click shit was really prevalent for older Gen X. 00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:16.960 And I think by the time I don't know, I definitely experienced it, but not to the same degree where it was like groups didn't talk to each other. 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:20.239 Like that wasn't really a thing that was happening so much for me. 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.800 Yeah, so I love 80s movies. 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:32.880 Whenever, whenever you see in the 80s movies where like the jocks will pick on a nerd and like give them a wedgie and then like shove them into the locker and then like lock it. 00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:38.000 I don't remember any of the like the football players or basketball players or anything like that happening. 00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:47.199 I I don't remember that happening with no no, but did you find so any kind of stuff like that was usually like hazing within the in-group. 00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:54.480 Yeah, it wasn't exactly it wasn't people from an outside click fucking up somebody from a different clique, right? 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.000 Typically, typically, yeah. 00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.119 I I would kind of agree. 00:39:57.199 --> 00:39:59.199 I think that was already kind of going away for me too. 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:00.320 Yeah, yeah. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.679 Out of curiosity, because I know you said your dad was abusive, so you grew up with a lot of that, at least early on, right? 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:09.519 And then after a time you're with your mom. 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.000 Do you have a lot of contact with your dad after that? 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:25.199 Like I know you said once you hit like 15, not so much, but like when he got out of prison, I tried to reestablish a relationship with him, and I think I was between 14 and 16. 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:26.960 I don't remember exactly when it was. 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:36.400 Okay, but I do remember I went to go live with him during a summer, and he

was he's a fucking con man. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:45.599 Yeah, you know, he he was like a quote unquote contractor that would like do roofs or siding or whatever, but would just cut corners. 00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:56.000 And he I remember he like put me on a roof, you know, helping like move just like move shingles and doing whatever I could as a scrawny, you know, right little teenager. 00:40:56.480 --> 00:41:07.280 But I remember I got so sunburnt to the point where I had blisters all over my my back and my neck and my ears, and and it was really, really bad. 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:18.000 And uh because I was a teenager at that point and I was starting to kind of develop the skill of learning when somebody is full of shit. 00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:22.639 Yep, I kind of I kind of learned, and then I just never never went back. 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:26.239 I feel like you learn that younger when you're a product of abuse. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.320 I think you're your bullshit meter. 00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:29.679 That it that's in my opinion. 00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.000 Yeah. 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:35.599 I too grew up in an abusive situation, physical abuse, verbal abuse. 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:53.199 Yeah, and yeah, I think I think you tend to have a meter not just of bullshit, but also of like what's gonna piss somebody off or put you into a situation where that person could potentially like the trigger gets gets like the switch gets flipped, I guess, is more it. 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:53.679 Yeah. 00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:57.599 Curious to know how old you were when you started playing guitar. 00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.920 13 or 14. 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:00.400 Okay. 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:01.039 Yeah. 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.000 And was that because you were like way into music? 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.519 Was it because mom was like, you need to do something to focus on something? 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.280 It was just something you came to. 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:11.760 Well, in a way. 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:20.400 When I was a really young kid and we were living with my grandmother, like my biological father's adoptive mother, right? 00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:32.159 We were living with her for a while, and she was like this massive Jesus freak, and she had this piano, and I remember her teaching me how to play piano from like that very young age. 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:32.880 Yeah. 00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:42.480 Then uh one year for uh a holiday, maybe like a birthday or something, uh, because I wanted to keep like experimenting with different musical instruments. 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:44.719 Uh my mom got me a harmonica. 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.039 And it was in the key of A, I remember. 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:47.519 Yeah. 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.239 So it's like a real bluesy harmonica. 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:50.800 Okay. 00:42:51.199 --> 00:43:01.440 And then um I I'd like always gravitated towards music, even as a really young kid, whether it was singing or playing music or whatever. 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:07.760 Uh, music was a really good way for me and my friends to bond over things going through like middle school. 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:14.000 You know, one of my best friends, Deshaun, we bonded over uh uh you know Bone Thugs and Harmony? 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:14.320 Sure. 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.519 Yeah, so we bonded heavily over Bone Thugs and Harmony. 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:18.159 I love it. 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:18.480 Yeah. 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:22.639 In fact, the the Nissan Rogue that we just totaled a couple weeks ago. 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:23.199 Oh no. 00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:27.519 I had it in all my payment apps for parking as the thugish, roguish bone. 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.079 Yes. 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:29.199 Oh, that's amazing. 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:29.920 I love it. 00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:30.480 Yeah. 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:36.000 So we bonded from a very like very young age um over uh Bone Thugs and Harmony. 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:42.880 Yeah, I just so I I love when musicians take their talent to the extreme. 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:43.280 Yeah. 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.039 Don't get me wrong, I like pop music. 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:45.440 Who doesn't? 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:46.719 Sure, it's catchy. 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:59.760 But whenever, like, like Bone Thugs, for example, would mix melody and harmony together, but then they would all sh also push the like limits of what you are able. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:07.199 To do and how you were able to rhyme and how you were able to mix rapping and singing with harmonizing on top of it. 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:17.280 It was just for me, it was like this is like the pinnacle of what you can do with human mouths over top of a beat. 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:18.960 Yeah, it was incredible to me. 00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:28.079 So I I've always just loved uh uh especially music, but when musicians push themselves to a point of like, how the fuck are you doing that? 00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:30.880 How are you rapping so fast? 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:34.480 Yeah, but I can still understand every word that you're saying. 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:38.880 Yeah, how are you able to put these rhyme schemes together? 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:48.320 It's like it's poetry, it's emotion, it's all of these things all combined together, all while at the same time you're talking about murdering people. 00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:54.719 You know, it's like it's the like to like a 13-year-old boy, it's the coolest fucking thing you've ever heard, right? 00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:55.440 Yeah. 00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:04.480 My sister, my younger sister was always into like pot punk, like Green Day and uh the offspring and stuff, and and I love that stuff too. 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:04.960 Yep, right. 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:13.760 Same she got a guitar uh one year, maybe for her birthday or Christmas or something, and she

played it for about two weeks and then gave up. 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:18.800 And it was this like cheap, like you know,$50 Ibanez Geo guitar. 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.920 And I was like, Well, shit, if you're not gonna play it, yeah, I'll pick it up and I'll learn how to play it. 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:24.800 Love it, you know. 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:31.599 And then I I started uh I started learning easy songs like uh like Misfits, you know, very, very easy. 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:38.400 Punk is if you want to learn how to play guitar and you like punk, you'll be playing all of those songs in a week and a half. 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.039 Yeah, because well, there's so many punk artists also who like historically will say, Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.920 I didn't know playing the guitar, it's picked it up, it made noise. 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:48.400 I learned three chords, and every song is those same three chords. 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:48.960 Exactly. 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:49.599 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:50.400 Yeah, exactly. 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:56.639 So I got into that, and then that was like, okay, so the Misfits are now my favorite thing in the world. 00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:10.320 And then it turned into well, especially because I I love old horror movies and all of their songs' lyrics, you know, 90% of Misfits lyrics are just retelling the stories of old like Vincent Price horror movies. 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:10.719 Yes. 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:11.199 Yeah. 00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.360 So fell in love with that. 00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:18.000 That turned into how far can I push this with playing guitar? 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:19.760 How good can I get at playing guitar? 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.239 Do you feel like I would just want to hit pause there for a second? 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.199 Do you feel like that's the earliest memory you have of the how far can I question? 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:27.599 Yep. 00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:28.239 Was music. 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:28.639 Yep. 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:29.039 Okay. 00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:29.440 Yep. 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:29.760 Okay. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.119 How far can I push this? 00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:32.400 How good can I get at this? 00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:32.960 Okay. 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:43.920 Well, if they're playing this, then oh my god, Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine, he's doing weird shit with a guitar that I've never heard before. 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:44.320 Right. 00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:49.360 He's pushing it to a like he's playing the guitar like a DJ scratches records. 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:50.639 That's incredible. 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:58.320 And it also has this like hip-hop element to it that I love too, which then led me into again, how far can I push this? 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.639 Who are the best guitarists that are out there? 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:01.519 Metal. 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:02.559 Metal guitars. 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:02.880 Yeah. 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:06.079 See, I'm not gonna disagree with you because metal has always been my first love. 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:06.559 Okay. 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:07.039 Yeah. 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:07.840 Yeah. 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:13.920 So metal, metal was a love that I ended up developing based off of my love for playing guitar. 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:19.360 Because I never liked like the the real like aggressive vocals and stuff. 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:24.079 I actually ended up developing an extreme appreciation for that through playing guitar. 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:29.679 But even that goes back to like, okay, who's who's like the best at guitar? 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:32.239 Mom, who's the best guitar player? 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:32.639 Yeah. 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:33.360 Prince. 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:34.079 Oh. 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:38.000 So I had a prince obsession for like nine months straight. 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.039 I gotta learn how to play prince. 00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:46.000 Right, of all the obsessions that you can have though, what a great one, like just through guitar. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:46.239 Yeah. 00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:50.079 Because oh my god, the path you can take through music is amazing. 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:54.079 And then it was like, okay, so I'm learning how to play all this stuff. 00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:54.480 Yeah. 00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:57.440 Now, how can I push this even more faster? 00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:57.840 Yeah. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.199 Now I gotta play faster. 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:00.400 Who plays faster? 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:01.440 Iron Maiden. 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:01.679 Yeah. 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:08.639 Not only does Iron Maiden play faster, but now they're playing all of these like neoclassical pieces that sound like Mozart on fucking guitar. 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:09.519 This is incredible. 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.679 This brings my love for piano back into it. 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:12.800 Okay, cool. 00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:14.320 How can I push this even further? 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:16.320 Metallica, megadeth. 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.480 They're playing 200 beats per minute. 00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:19.280 You know what I mean? 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.159 It's like, okay, cool, how can I push this even further? 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:23.199 Dream theater. 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:23.599 Yes. 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:26.800 You know, it's like so then I got into progressive. 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:31.519 All of this stuff just all compounds onto how can I push this further? 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.480 How can I get as good as I could possibly get? 00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.639 And so you end up starting a band. 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.199 Like, how old were you when you started a band? 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:41.039 I think 16. 00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:50.320 And this is

like so what's funny about this all, because we started talking about tattooing, and we are going to end up getting back there at some point, but you basically already said it. 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.920 You did not get into tattooing because of any love of drawing. 00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:54.239 No. 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:55.039 Your creative. 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:56.639 It was a love for tattooing. 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:57.039 Yes. 00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.360 But your whole creative was always my creative. 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:08.880 So let's talk about how old you were when you started using substances because that happened at a relatively young age. 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:09.280 Yeah. 00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:09.760 Okay. 00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:10.559 How old were you? 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:13.679 I think 14 was the first time that I had smoked weed. 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:14.480 Smoked weed. 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:15.039 Okay. 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:15.519 Okay. 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:17.039 Were you a cigarettes guy? 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:17.440 No. 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:17.760 No. 00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:18.559 Okay. 00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:19.360 Asthma. 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:20.239 Really? 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:30.320 You know what's really funny is weed never flared up my asthma, but I do remember, uh, my mom's gonna kill me, but I remember stealing a Paul Mall cigarette out of her purse. 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:31.039 No way. 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:31.840 Yeah. 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:36.400 And I had like a bic lighter like stashed under the couch, right? 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:43.360 So I grabbed the lighter and I sneak the cigarette out of her purse and I run as fast as I can down to the local train tracks. 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:52.800 And before I could even catch my breath, I pop that cigarette into my mouth and I light it and I take the biggest drag ever. 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:54.320 And I start coughing. 00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:55.119 Oh my god. 00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:55.920 So bad. 00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:57.599 That had to have hurt so badly. 00:49:57.920 --> 00:49:58.400 So bad. 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:02.159 And I I remember vividly throwing up all over the train tracks. 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:02.719 Oh wow. 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:06.559 And I was like, well, I guess I'm just not a cigarette guy. 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:08.079 I love that. 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:12.079 And uh yeah, I've I so I've never smoked cigarettes. 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.679 Um, yeah, I'd I smoked weed for a very, very long time. 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.159 Okay. 00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:30.639 That turned into, you know, like, oh, like some of the kids that I uh grew up hanging out with that were wearing like fishnet arm stockings and listening to the cure and nine-inch nails and shit like that, because I I like that stuff, you know. 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:33.519 Um they're drinking Robotussin before school. 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.039 So hey, let me try some of that. 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:36.639 Whoa, this gives me a weird trip. 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.800 This makes like patterns kind of like move and breathe and stuff like that. 00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:42.159 This is really fucking cool. 00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:44.719 What if I drink Robotussin before playing guitar? 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:46.320 What kind of sounds can I make with that? 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:46.719 You know? 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:47.360 Interesting. 00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:54.000 So this is so this is all like happening parallel path as you're getting into music. 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:54.480 Yeah. 00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:58.480 And so it's also contributing to your experience of music, would you say? 00:50:58.639 --> 00:50:58.960 Yeah. 00:50:59.280 --> 00:50:59.599 Okay. 00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.440 And you actually said, I kind of want you to talk about this a little bit. 00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:12.559 You considered weed your gateway drug, even though, like, most of us would say weed is not really a gateway drug to things, but you were like 100% it was a gateway drug for me. 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:13.440 Completely, yeah. 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.079 Okay, so you already mentioned Robotussin. 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:19.920 What other things then did you end up getting yourself into? 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:24.000 So Adderall wasn't around at the time, but it was Ritalin. 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:33.039 So I would be taking my friend's Ritalin, you know, and it was like, whoa, I feel like I'm like, like I can I can see sounds. 00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:33.280 Yeah. 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:36.000 You know, like this is whoa, this is cool. 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:38.079 I've been also helpful when you're a musician. 00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:40.639 Yeah, I've never been more focused in my life. 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:40.960 Yeah. 00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:48.079 What can I oh how good am I gonna get a guitar if I take a bunch of fucking Ritalin before playing it and like learning a new song, you know? 00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:50.960 But yeah, weed, weed was definitely a gateway drug for me. 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:51.519 Absolutely. 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:51.840 Yeah. 00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:52.400 Yeah. 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:53.599 Did your did you feel it? 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.239 That sounds very like reefer madnessy, but it doesn't. 00:51:56.639 --> 00:51:58.480 Uh but yeah, it absolutely was. 00:51:58.559 --> 00:51:58.800 Yeah. 00:51:58.880 --> 00:51:59.039 Yeah. 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.360 It doesn't sound reefer madnessy only because you're talking about your own personal experience. 00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:05.119 You're not warning other people away from it. 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:06.800 You're just saying this is how it worked for me. 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:07.280 Yep. 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:14.320 Do you also feel like the Ritalin maybe worked like to focus you because I mean that is what it does, but it does

that for people with ADHD. 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:15.519 Did you feel like you had that? 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:16.559 Were you diagnosed with it? 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:17.519 I was never diagnosed. 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:18.239 Never diagnosed. 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:18.559 Nope. 00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:19.119 Okay. 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.360 So it just actually focused you. 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:29.840 Yeah, but then what I noticed was uh the weirdest side effect with Ritalin and and then later, like in college, finding Adderall, yeah. 00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:37.360 Was that it gave me the ability to drink, and then whenever I would get drunk, it would let me keep drinking. 00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:38.159 Gotcha. 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:38.559 Yeah. 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:38.960 Okay. 00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:40.880 And when did the drinking start for you? 00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:44.079 Probably around 15, probably, probably around the same time. 00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:44.320 All right. 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:45.360 It's just everywhere. 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:47.920 I mean, it was it was everywhere. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:49.679 It was so readily available. 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:50.159 Yep. 00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:59.519 Pretty much at all times, you know, kids would sneak alcohol to school and or or yeah, or like the Robotussin or or weed. 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:00.960 I mean, here's the thing. 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:12.800 I I went to a high school where like we had drug dogs come by all the time and like sniffing lockers, and kids were yeah, kids, I mean, kids were selling weed, there was like gang activity, there was there was a whole bunch of shit going on. 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:13.119 Yeah. 00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:13.440 Yep. 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:14.000 Yeah. 00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.360 I didn't so addiction is not my affliction. 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:18.480 I have other afflictions. 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:20.239 Just addiction is not one of them. 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:22.800 So I didn't have that same path. 00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:30.480 And I like weed was my drug of choice, and it was still pretty like it was sporadic. 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:31.760 It was social for me. 00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:37.599 Um, sometimes it got a little bit more than social, like, because it, you know, obviously people think it calms them. 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:46.400 There are whole other like results of that, I think, in adulthood that make it less appealing to me, like as a grown-up, but alcohol as well. 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:48.400 And I did, I was a cigarette smoker. 00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:50.719 And and so those those are like my things. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:53.039 It never really progressed for me beyond that. 00:53:53.199 --> 00:54:03.440 And honestly, I had kids young, and so like I stopped drinking by the time I was legally allowed to drink, like drinking, drinking, you know, like partying and whatnot as well. 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:04.719 So

yeah, yeah. 00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:11.039 So it is interesting when I hear you say that weed was like your gateway drug because it just it never progressed for me beyond that. 00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:21.119 But well, I it it's funny, I I was like just surrounded by people who um were older than me, but would just let you drink. 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:22.079 Yeah, totally. 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:27.679 And and similarly, I would say, like, we I don't really know people bringing it to school, like at my high school. 00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:37.039 Okay, but we all were friends with like older kids, and they would go either use their fakes or they were old enough and still hanging around high school kids, which is problematic in and of itself. 00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:41.360 Oh, yeah, but you don't think about that when you're 14 and 15, you're like, I just need beer. 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:48.159 Oh yeah, and so there was always somebody willing to go grab you like Milwaukee's best, yep, which was so fucking cheap. 00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:49.679 Like we would all put our money together. 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:52.960 Awful, yeah, terrible, yeah, but that's what we did. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:54.239 Yep, yeah, yeah. 00:54:54.400 --> 00:55:00.239 I remember, I mean, yeah, God, I remember um drinking like E and J. 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:05.599 Because we yeah, E and J uh like specialty brandy or whatever they call it. 00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:13.360 But it's like the the grossest, most bottom shelf shit, but it's because nobody could afford Hennessy because we were all poor, you know what I mean? 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:15.519 So yeah, it's just stuff like that. 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:22.000 I remember oh my god, uh there was a local bar that I would go to that I would drink at those ages, no, no, no. 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:29.119 Oh, okay, a little bit older, but like 17, 18, 19, yeah, still not legal, still nowhere near legal, right? 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:35.519 But drinking underage in these bars, and then whenever I turned 21, we had to go celebrate at a different bar. 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.239 Oh god. 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:39.119 Because they didn't, because they thought you were already old enough to drink. 00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:39.679 Yep. 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:40.400 Damn. 00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:41.360 Yep, damn. 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:42.159 Yep. 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:48.480 Did you so did the did the drinking and the drugs impact school? 00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:50.480 I mean, obviously it didn't impact your grades. 00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:52.480 No, did it impact like friend groups? 00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:53.679 Were you guys all doing it? 00:55:53.920 --> 00:56:01.519 No, everybody, everybody was doing it, or if they didn't, nobody I can't remember anybody actually like pressuring anybody. 00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:02.480 You know what I mean? 00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:03.039 Yeah, for sure. 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.320 Well, there were there was pressure with drinking. 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:15.519 I don't remember anybody pressuring people to smoke weed or to take ecstasy or to rail some fucking Ritalin or anything like that. 00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:19.440 Yeah, I do remember people going like, hey, take a shot, pussy. 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:23.119 You know, I I remember that kind of mentality just around alcohol. 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:27.119 I don't really remember it much around any other illicit drug use. 00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:27.599 Okay. 00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:28.079 Yeah. 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:37.760 When did you realize, like at what was the the point, I guess, where you've realized you weren't just using anymore that you had an addiction? 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:45.599 Not until not until like right before I tried getting sober. 00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:53.599 And and how long until then, I was just having fun, I was partying, I was living my life as a you know, in my my twenties. 00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:56.320 Uh you know, I was doing what everybody does. 00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:56.800 Yeah. 00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:03.280 And you were still able to be creative and you like still had the band at that point. 00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:08.960 So when did the band fell apart when I was 23? 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:09.760 Okay. 00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:13.199 But yeah, I mean, yeah, I was still like heavily using. 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:13.679 Yeah. 00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:18.000 But you had said that you kind of like were able to mask it as an addiction. 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:19.760 I I hid it from everybody. 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:20.320 Everybody. 00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:22.480 I hid it, I hid it from everyone. 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:30.079 And whenever even whenever I told my wife, like, hey, I I'm I really have a problem and I need to quit this. 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.719 She was very supportive, but she did not even think that I had a problem. 00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:35.119 Yeah. 00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:35.599 Yeah. 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:38.000 Like, oh no, you just you just party. 00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:39.039 You just party a lot. 00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:39.280 Yeah. 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:41.920 You just party every day, you know? 00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:48.000 But it it wasn't something where it's like I'm still showing up to my appointments or functional, functional. 00:57:48.159 --> 00:57:48.320 Yeah. 00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:48.559 Yeah. 00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:49.760 I was completely functional. 00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:53.360 I was it wasn't it wasn't impeding my work. 00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:00.559 Um, it was impeding my creativity, but the the excuse that I told myself was that I needed it to be creative. 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:01.199 I see. 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:05.119 And was that at that point, was that not just with the band, but also with tattooing? 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:05.599 Oh, yeah. 00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.119 No, with tat with tattooing, yeah. 00:58:07.280 -->

00:58:07.519 Tattooing. 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:08.239 Yeah, for sure. 00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:08.719 Yeah. 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:17.039 No, I needed to take a bunch of Molly so that I could have a good role and a good trip and and get creative ideas. 00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:22.880 And I needed to drink every night because I had to unwind from a hard day. 00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:28.639 Or I I needed to to do a bunch of coke because I just drank a whole bunch and I can't drive home. 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:32.079 So I gotta sober up a little bit before I can drive home. 00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:39.360 And I need to do a bunch of Adderall during the day because I'm so hung over and fucked up from the night before. 00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:40.880 I can't function without it. 00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:47.119 So I need to snort 30 milligrams of Adderall and chase it with a extra large red bowl. 00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:50.239 And and that was my daily life for a long time. 00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:54.800 But most of that was it, it came to at its worst whenever I lived in Massachusetts. 00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:55.360 Okay. 00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:56.800 Talk a little bit about that. 00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:56.960 Yeah. 00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:04.719 Because again, at this point, you're still you still have not said to your wife until you until after you're in Massachusetts, is that right? 00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:05.119 Yeah. 00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:05.440 Yeah. 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:14.079 And I'll be honest with you, I didn't even realize that I had a problem with it until so at the time, she does hair now, but at the time she was actually a middle school English teacher. 00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:14.559 Okay. 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:23.440 And when I finally realized that I had a legitimate problem was whenever I would drink a little bit in front of her. 00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:29.840 And then because she had to be up so early to get ready for school, you know, she had to be up at like five o'clock in the morning. 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:30.400 I didn't. 00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:32.159 My appointment didn't start until noon. 00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:32.559 Right. 00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:40.159 So I would go to bed after her and I would wait until she would go to bed and then I would slam booze. 00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:40.719 Okay. 00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:41.199 Yeah. 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.320 And that's when And that's how I was able to hide it for so long. 00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:44.880 Got it. 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:48.559 Was because I would wait, I would wait for her to go to bed and then I would drink it. 00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:55.199 Or I would have something stashed in my car and I would go out, I'd be like, oh yeah, I I left my backpack in the car. 00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:57.119 I would like to leave my backpack in the car. 00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.360 Oh, I gotta go get my backpack out of the car. 00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:00.480 I forgot to bring it in. 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.440 Whenever I drove home from work, I gotta go grab that. 01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:08.880 I would go out there and I would, you know, steal a few swigs out of a bottle that I had under my front seat. 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:09.199 Yeah. 01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:11.119 And then grab my backpack and go in. 01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:25.599 And so the once I realized that I was hiding how much I was using things from somebody that I loved so much, that's whenever I had my like come to Jesus moment. 01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:26.000 Got it. 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:28.000 Where I was like, okay, dude. 01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:37.280 Not only did you just go to the doctor and get diagnosed with metabolic syndrome at like 28 years old, which should not be happening. 01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:37.840 Right. 01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:43.519 Like you haven't seen the gym in years and you weigh 250 pounds, you know? 01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:44.159 Yeah. 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:46.079 What what the fuck is going on? 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:46.400 Yeah. 01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:48.000 So your health is like in the shitter. 01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:49.199 I'm killing myself. 01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:49.599 Yeah. 01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:50.159 Yeah. 01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:54.719 I'm killing myself and I'm killing my relationship and I didn't even realize it. 01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:55.360 Really? 01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:55.519 Yeah. 01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:57.519 Like, say a little bit about that. 01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:03.679 Well, uh, it's because once you start hiding something from somebody, then you're inherently being dishonest. 01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:04.239 Got it. 01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:04.639 Okay. 01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:07.280 So I think that's what I what I was trying to understand. 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:16.400 Because if you're saying she didn't really even recognize it as problematic, but you're saying you recognize that I'm I'm actually harming my relationship. 01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:18.000 I was lying to myself for years. 01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:20.639 Once I started lying to her, then I realized how bad it was. 01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:21.119 Got it. 01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:21.679 Okay. 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:26.639 So your all-in mentality, also, I think it's safe to say. 01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:27.360 Oh yeah. 01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:29.199 You were all in on partying. 01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:30.320 You were, yeah. 01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:33.599 If I'm gonna party, I'm gonna be the best partier that I can. 01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:34.000 Yes. 01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:34.239 Yep. 01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:34.559 Yeah. 01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:36.880 I'm gonna do the most amount of drugs that I can. 01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:39.440 I'm gonna drink the most amount of booze that I can. 01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:39.840 Yeah. 01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:44.320 And I'm still gonna show up to work on time just to prove to you motherfuckers that it's not a problem. 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:44.960 Right.

01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:46.800 But mostly trying to prove it to yourself. 01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:47.039 Yep. 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:47.760 Yeah. 01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:50.639 So you make the decision that it's it's time. 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.079 I gotta get sober. 01:01:52.320 --> 01:01:54.960 What what like where were you when that happened? 01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:56.320 Were you still in Massachusetts? 01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:56.960 Okay. 01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:58.639 And how did you get sober? 01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.480 So it it took me a few times. 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:10.320 So um, like I said, at 28, when I went to the doctor, and they were like, dude, you've got high blood pressure, you're pre-diabetic, you know, all of this stuff. 01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:13.519 It's like your lifestyle is really taking a toll on you. 01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:17.360 You know, your your BMI is obese, like all of this crazy shit. 01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:18.639 It's like, whoa, okay. 01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:20.559 That's a bit of a wake-up call. 01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:29.679 And then realizing that I was being dishonest to the person who's been supportive of me the entire fucking time that all of this is going down. 01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:35.039 It's like, okay, well, it took me a couple of years to actually quit. 01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:35.679 Okay. 01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:36.159 Yeah. 01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:38.320 It it took me multiple tries. 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:42.559 And I did it without meetings, I did it without like anybody helping me. 01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:54.159 I just knew that once I realized that I was killing myself, I was being dishonest to myself, and I was being dishonest to the people that I love, then I it was just time to change. 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:54.639 Okay. 01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:54.960 Yeah. 01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:56.400 And you did all of that on your own. 01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:56.719 Yeah. 01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:59.519 You you then went all in on getting sober. 01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:00.000 Yep. 01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:00.559 Okay. 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:02.559 And what were some of the things that you did? 01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:04.960 Was it just like, oh, I'm just gonna quit cold turkey? 01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:09.599 Was it I'm quitting this first, then these other things? 01:03:09.840 --> 01:03:14.559 How did you manage that without rehab meetings, etc.? 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:26.559 Well, at first, um, I was using at first I was using weed as a way to get through like the alcohol withdrawals and stuff. 01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:29.760 So I was I was using it as like a medicine, you know? 01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:30.159 Yep. 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:31.679 I was like, oh, this is cool. 01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:34.400 I don't have to be completely sober, I could be California sober. 01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:35.760 I love Cali sober. 01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:37.920 I could be that, you know, the weed guy. 01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:38.239

Yeah. 01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:40.639 I'm just I'm totally fine with being the weed guy. 01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:41.119 Yeah. 01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:44.320 And so that helped me get through like the alcohol withdrawal. 01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:56.239 But the the main problem is that because weed like lowers your your inhibitions, I would get to a point where, you know, the first time I quit drinking, I was like, holy shit, I haven't had a drink in like two months. 01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:58.079 I've got this thing under control. 01:03:58.239 --> 01:03:58.559 Yeah. 01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:02.800 I can go have a few beers after work and be totally fine. 01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:03.199 Yeah. 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:17.119 And I went and had a few beers, and next thing you know, I'm calling my coat guy at four o'clock in the morning and I'm getting an eight ball, and I'm and then I'm railing out of all the next day again because I I would I didn't get any sleep and I have an appointment at noon and my drawing's not done. 01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:21.119 I gotta get my drawing done, and and then the excuses start piling up again. 01:04:21.199 --> 01:04:28.719 And was your wife more aware of it after you after you had like started the process of okay, I can't do this anymore? 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.960 You came clean about like yeah, you know, I feel like I'm being dishonest. 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:37.760 Was she then more aware and then able to see when you would like backslide? 01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:38.320 Yes. 01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:39.760 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:42.960 Yeah, and I was like, okay, well, that was a disaster. 01:04:43.119 --> 01:04:44.719 Two months is not enough time. 01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:52.000 Then I went through a period of like six months where all I did was smoke weed, but I didn't drink for six months, you know. 01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:57.039 And I did like a little bit of Molly here and there and a little bit of coke and whatever, but I but I didn't drink. 01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:01.679 So okay, six months without booze. 01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:04.400 I totally have this thing under control. 01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:04.880 Yeah. 01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:07.039 Same fucking thing happened again. 01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:07.519 Yeah. 01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:10.320 And I was like, okay. 01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:18.159 What I realized was after so me and Lindsay were supposed to get married in 2020. 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:20.559 COVID happened, pushed it back a year. 01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:21.119 Okay. 01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:31.199 The day that we were supposed to get married was the day that I finally actually decided to get sober, like for real. 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:31.760 Okay. 01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:38.320 Because it had been a period of time at that point where it was like between eight months and a year, finally, right? 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:39.679 In that two-year time span. 01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:42.480 It

was like between eight months and a year that I haven't had a drink. 01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:45.519 And I was like, okay, you know, Lindsay's really sad. 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:47.360 It's the day that we were supposed to get married. 01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:51.760 It was May 1st, um, which is our like together anniversary. 01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:52.400 Yeah, you know? 01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:55.440 So it was like we've been together all of this time. 01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:57.679 This is the day we were supposed to get married. 01:05:57.840 --> 01:05:59.360 I'll have a drink with you. 01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:02.719 And I had a drink with her. 01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:06.400 And then later on, she goes to bed. 01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:08.400 And I'm up playing video games. 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:13.039 And all I could think about was drinking the rest of that bottle. 01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:13.599 Yeah. 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:18.159 And I drank the majority of the rest of that bottle of Hennessy. 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:18.800 Oh wow. 01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:19.920 After she went to bed. 01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:20.159 Yeah. 01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:24.639 And I was so sick for like three days straight. 01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:25.119 Yeah. 01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:29.119 So that was the day that I decided, all right, I'm done. 01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:29.519 Yeah. 01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:30.079 This is it. 01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:31.679 And no more alcohol since then. 01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:32.159 None. 01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:36.079 And now, of course, you've learned so much more since, right? 01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:44.400 From just nutritional science and understanding what it was that you were doing every time you went back and started using those substances again. 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:49.039 Well, so after I finally quit drinking, I was able to quit everything else. 01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:53.119 So that was like the almost like the glue that was keeping you keeping you. 01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:58.960 If I'm not if I'm not up and hammered, then I don't need to get coke to sober myself up to drive me back home. 01:06:59.119 --> 01:06:59.519 That's right. 01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:05.280 I don't need to take a bunch of Adderall during the day because I'm not hungover every single day. 01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:09.280 It's like every other drug issue that I had disappears. 01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:10.400 Completely disappeared. 01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:10.639 Yeah. 01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:11.039 Yeah. 01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:11.920 That's wild. 01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:18.960 I did I I stopped taking Molly because I didn't I didn't like the times that I took Molly and I wasn't drinking. 01:07:19.199 --> 01:07:19.679 Really? 01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:20.079 Yeah. 01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:20.559 Okay. 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:22.159 And it's the same thing with weed. 01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:29.039 I quit smoking weed because I didn't realize that the thing that I loved most was mixing alcohol and weed together. 01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:34.880 And I gotta tell you, from a purely personal perspective, that it makes me sick to even think about it. 01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:37.440 I couldn't, I could never it was my favorite thing. 01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:40.719 Drinking cognac and smoking a blunt was my favorite thing. 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:42.079 It made me so ill. 01:07:42.239 --> 01:07:42.400 Yeah. 01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:44.480 Ever mixing any alcohol with weed. 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:45.679 You get the spins? 01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:46.239 Yep. 01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:46.880 I love that. 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:47.760 Do we really? 01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:48.320 Oh yeah. 01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:49.199 Oh my god. 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:49.760 Oh yeah. 01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:50.400 Oh my god. 01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:51.039 You know what though? 01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.440 I'm a little bit prone to like motion sickness and shit too. 01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:56.880 So I'm wondering if that's like that's the greatest ever. 01:07:57.039 --> 01:07:59.599 And like, oh my god, I want to vomit just thinking about that. 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:06.480 Yeah, no, I would, I would, I would drink a bunch of Hennessy and smoke a blunt to the face and be like, all right, let's go out and do something. 01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:07.119 My God. 01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:07.519 Yeah. 01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:08.000 Wow. 01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:08.480 Yeah. 01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:13.119 How do you feel like sobriety has affected your creativity? 01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:24.399 Because only because, you know, earlier in the conversation when we were talking about it, you were like, it really kind of fueled, in your opinion, it fueled your creativity and your exploration of it. 01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:25.680 Well, I think it does at first. 01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:26.159 Okay. 01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:41.039 I think it does at first, but once it goes past the point of using these things to have fun and expand your mind to using these things to cope with a life that you are not happy with, then it loses all of that edge that it used to give you with creativity. 01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:45.840 Because now you're not using it, now you're not using it to expand your mind anymore. 01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:49.119 Now you're actually using it to close your mind off to the things that you don't like. 01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:49.680 Right. 01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:51.439 So you're using it as a crutch. 01:08:51.680 --> 01:08:52.880 Can you share a little bit? 01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:58.880 And you don't have to if you don't want to, but can you share a little bit about the things that you that were making you unhappy? 01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:03.840 I was not happy with the situation that I was in at the the shop that I was at. 01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.920 The grass is not always greener. 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:15.359 Sometimes when people say, you know, do not meet your idols because they will

only disappoint you, they are very, very true. 01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.720 That warning I did not heed whatsoever. 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:19.199 Okay. 01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:23.199 Because I thought at the time, like, hey, we're we're like best friends. 01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:23.600 Yeah. 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:24.000 You know? 01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:24.319 Yeah. 01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:29.760 And when this shit was killing me and I decided to get sober, all of a sudden I was the black sheep. 01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:32.159 And well, yeah, it changes, right? 01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:33.359 It changes the dynamic. 01:09:33.439 --> 01:09:33.680 Yeah. 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:35.199 And some people can't handle now. 01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:43.600 All of a sudden, to this, you know, this person who was one of my best friends, now all of a sudden he thinks that I believe I'm better than him. 01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:44.079 Ah. 01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:51.920 Because I decided to get sober to take advantage of my health and change my life around and all of that stuff. 01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:56.079 So so yeah, it there was a lot of stuff that I was coping with. 01:09:56.159 --> 01:09:58.239 I I almost quit tattooing because of it. 01:09:58.479 --> 01:09:58.800 Okay. 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:03.439 Uh I thought that I hated tattooing and it had nothing to do with that. 01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:04.960 It was just the situation that I was. 01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:06.239 Sure, sure. 01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:11.760 So, okay, again, back to how do you feel like sobriety affected or impacted your creativity? 01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:15.199 Well, I think it took a long time to build it back. 01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:16.239 To build it back, yeah. 01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:16.560 Okay. 01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:16.960 Yeah. 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:17.359 Yeah. 01:10:17.600 --> 01:10:18.640 I think it took a long time. 01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:31.760 There was, I mean, just you know, years and years and years more than a decade of excuses of using these substances saying that this is what gives me the creativity and and all of that stuff. 01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:38.319 So whenever you stop doing that, you kind of like fall out of love with the things that you used to do while you were fucked up. 01:10:39.199 --> 01:10:42.319 So it took it, I mean, it took a lot of like soul searching. 01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:55.439 Uh, but eventually, like, you know, what's funny is like in in my in my sixth year of sobriety now, I'm doing the best tattoos I've ever done in my entire career. 01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:58.960 How long did it take you to build and feel that? 01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:03.680 Like well, the the creativity came back whenever my drive for competition came back. 01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:05.439 And that that I just think takes time. 01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:08.720 It takes time for your brain to rebuild the ability to even produce dopamine. 01:11:08.880 --> 01:11:10.239 It takes, you know what I

mean? 01:11:10.399 --> 01:11:12.800 And and I did it all without medication. 01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.760 I didn't take any antidepression medications. 01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:20.319 I didn't I didn't go to any meetings, I didn't have any support groups or anything like that. 01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:22.079 I did everything on my own. 01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:24.239 Not not the smart way to do it. 01:11:24.319 --> 01:11:24.399 Yeah. 01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:28.399 If I could go back and do it again, I'd probably go to some meetings or listen anyway. 01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:31.119 Any way you can do it is the smart way, right? 01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:31.760 Sure. 01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:32.000 Yeah. 01:11:32.319 --> 01:11:34.560 I would say maybe not the easiest. 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:37.439 You probably picked maybe the hardest possible way. 01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:39.600 I have a track record for doing that. 01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:40.079 Yes. 01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:40.479 Yeah. 01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:44.399 Um, you ended up taking to not just sobriety, but your health. 01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:44.880 Yeah. 01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:48.399 Again, with that all-in competitive sort of attack. 01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:48.800 Yep. 01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:51.760 You talk a little bit about the things that you've done for your health too. 01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:55.760 So when I got sober, I got really into powerlifting. 01:11:56.399 --> 01:12:06.560 Uh, because again, with lifting weights, it like it wasn't enough to just build muscle and tone up and lose body fat and and all of that stuff. 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:08.800 I dove headfirst into everything. 01:12:08.960 --> 01:12:13.039 So I got two nutrition science certifications. 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:18.560 I started uh reading as much literature on strength training as I could. 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:26.159 And then I wanted to dive headfirst into powerlifting because again, I was like, how far can I take this? 01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:26.800 Yeah. 01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:29.359 How strong can I possibly get? 01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:29.760 Yeah. 01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:30.560 Yeah. 01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:33.600 But then again, I took that to an unhealthy level too. 01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.479 Because then I ended up woking up to 240 pounds. 01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:51.760 And while I was mostly muscle and I was the strongest I had ever been, I squatted 500 pounds, I pulled, you know, a 600 pound deadlift, I'd I repped 365 on bench, I was 240 pounds and had high blood pressure, and I was uh losing my breath whenever I would bend over to tie my shoes. 01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:52.079 Right. 01:12:52.239 --> 01:13:03.439 So again, that wasn't healthy, which gets into okay, so if I'm going to like I've pushed my body to the point to where I am as strong as I could possibly get. 01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:10.560 And I had to stop with that because I had ended up tearing my groin twice from really heavy squatting. 01:13:10.640 --> 01:13:10.800 Yeah. 01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:13.840 It's like, okay, maybe powerlifting just isn't for me. 01:13:14.079 --> 01:13:15.039 But I need something. 01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:15.439 Yeah. 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:16.079 You know? 01:13:16.319 --> 01:13:23.199 So I still lift weights and I still watch what I eat, and I'm still a nut about my nutrition and protein intake and all of that stuff. 01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:27.279 But um, that's whenever I was like, okay, maybe I need a contact sport. 01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:27.680 Yeah. 01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:28.159 You know? 01:13:28.319 --> 01:13:28.560 Yeah. 01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:29.119 Okay. 01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:38.800 Well, my knees can't handle rugby, so why don't I go into, you know, mixed martial arts or something. 01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:43.439 So started with boxing and then eventually moved into to Muay Thai. 01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:49.680 And and uh again, the reason with Muay Thai is I I feel like it's like the hardest thing that you can do as far as striking goes. 01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:51.199 Again, that kind of thing. 01:13:52.319 --> 01:13:56.159 It's like that competitive thing in you where you're like, what is the most difficult thing? 01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:57.279 Yeah, that's the one that's right. 01:13:57.439 --> 01:13:59.760 That's what I want to do, and that's what I have to get good at. 01:13:59.920 --> 01:14:00.159 Yeah. 01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:00.720 Yeah. 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:01.439 All right. 01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:04.239 Let's go back to tattooing for a minute. 01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:09.920 Because again, I feel like this is another extension of going all in on something. 01:14:10.720 --> 01:14:14.720 Because as we mentioned before, like in and I found this in interviews with you. 01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:17.600 Like, I was reading some print interviews, um, and you've mentioned it. 01:14:17.680 --> 01:14:20.560 You weren't particularly drawn to tattooing because of drawing. 01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:21.039 No. 01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:25.680 You liked it for other reasons and you got into it for it was the culture. 01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:26.159 Yeah. 01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:26.640 Yep. 01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:27.359 Yeah. 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:40.640 But you're also fairly vocal about not being pigeonholed in like a singular style, but like being proficient in all styles, which again, I think, speaks to sort of that nature that I'm gonna learn every single thing. 01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:44.560 And even sometimes like mixing styles is kind of like your your MO. 01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:50.319 Talk a little bit about that and how you feel like that, having that mindset elevates your tattooing. 01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:57.359 So after my band broke up and I couldn't put anything together with that, I was still working part-time at a tattoo shop, right? 01:14:57.760 --> 01:15:00.239 So it was like, okay, bills are piling up. 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:03.680 I need to be able to do something

to start making some money. 01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:08.560 I drew a little bit as a kid, but once I got a guitar, I didn't really care about drawing anymore. 01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:09.039 Sure. 01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:14.319 So I was like, well, uh, you know, I've been around, I've been in the tattoo industry for like four years. 01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:17.920 I've got a really good, uh I have a really good like uh position. 01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:19.600 I I've got a good foot in the door. 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:25.760 So I bought some Prismacolor colored pencils and I bought some toned paper and I just started drawing my ass off. 01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:32.079 And I just dove headfirst into getting as good as I possibly could at drawing to earn an apprenticeship. 01:15:32.239 --> 01:15:33.920 And it only took me a few months. 01:15:34.159 --> 01:15:34.479 Okay. 01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:35.039 Yeah. 01:15:35.359 --> 01:15:37.039 That's very fast, it feels like. 01:15:37.359 --> 01:15:38.479 But it was all day, every day. 01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:48.159 It was, you know, since I was working the desk and I was piercing at the time, when I when people weren't cashing out or getting a piercing, I was at the desk drawing. 01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:48.720 Drawing. 01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:53.439 And tracing and drawing and tracing and drawing and tracing and doing everything that I could. 01:15:53.520 --> 01:16:02.399 And eventually the owner of the shop that I was at at the time, you know, after a few months of that, she comes over and she's kind of peering over my shoulder at one of the drawings that I'm working on. 01:16:02.800 --> 01:16:06.000 She goes, you know, um, that's pretty good. 01:16:06.239 --> 01:16:09.279 There's no reason you shouldn't be tattooing. 01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:15.039 So in my mind, I was like, ch-ching! I can start taking walk-ins and paying my fucking bills. 01:16:15.359 --> 01:16:15.840 There you go. 01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:16.319 There you go. 01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:32.079 So I bought some machines and started tattooing on everything I could get my hands on: oranges and pumpkins and watermelons and and uh there was a there was a uh uh little Mexican shop down the street from us called Las Palmas and uh in uh Brookline. 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:32.560 Okay. 01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:33.119 Yeah. 01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:37.760 And in the back, in like the the butcher section that they had, they sold pig ears. 01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:39.600 So I was tattooing pig ears. 01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:40.399 No way. 01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:45.119 So I would get there early every morning before we opened and I would draw. 01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:49.279 And I would tattoo, you know, I I've tattooed myself. 01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:51.680 I'd I was tattooing pig ears or whatever. 01:16:51.840 --> 01:16:59.039 We would open and I would work all day and I would draw in between everything else that I was doing, whether it was clean in the shop, scrubbing tubes, all

of that stuff. 01:16:59.119 --> 01:17:03.199 And then at night when we would close, I would go to the bar and I would drink all night and I would draw. 01:17:03.359 --> 01:17:10.640 And so it was just that over and over and over again to the point where my apprenticeship only lasted like six months before I was taking walk-ins. 01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:16.720 So you're like, I mean, you're obsessive when you focus on a specific thing. 01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:18.399 I'm obsessive over everything. 01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:19.039 Yeah, like once you get it. 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:19.920 And you're driven. 01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:24.399 Yeah, once I get into something, yeah, it's not enough to just be interested in it. 01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:26.319 It's not enough to just be okay at it. 01:17:26.479 --> 01:17:29.359 I have to be the absolute fucking best that I can be at it. 01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:29.920 Got it. 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:34.239 Is there anything in your life that you do for just funsies? 01:17:34.479 --> 01:17:38.079 Like things that you are like, I don't have to be the best at this. 01:17:38.239 --> 01:17:39.840 I can just I can just play around. 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:41.439 No, it's not like a single thing. 01:17:41.680 --> 01:17:47.520 No, really, no, even if I were to get into like fucking pickleball, like I'm I'm gonna, I'm the best. 01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:48.720 You're just gonna keep doing it. 01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:51.119 I've gotta beat your ass at pickleball. 01:17:51.279 --> 01:17:51.600 Got it. 01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:51.840 Yeah. 01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:52.239 Okay. 01:17:52.399 --> 01:17:52.800 Yeah. 01:17:53.039 --> 01:17:55.199 Remind me to never play pickleball again. 01:17:55.840 --> 01:17:57.119 I enjoy pickleball. 01:17:57.279 --> 01:17:57.520 Yeah. 01:17:57.760 --> 01:17:59.119 Yeah, regardless of what it is. 01:17:59.279 --> 01:18:00.399 I I don't know what it is. 01:18:00.560 --> 01:18:08.399 I have to be even in and here's the thing is like, if I can't be the best in the world, I have to at least be better than you. 01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:09.119 Really? 01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:15.359 So your competition is that's really, I think it's interesting to me because I am fiercely competitive. 01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:19.920 But what I have learned about myself over time is I'm always competing with myself. 01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:20.560 Yeah. 01:18:20.800 --> 01:18:25.920 It's never really for me about competing with, I don't care if I'm better than you at something. 01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:26.319 Yeah. 01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:28.319 Because to me, that's all relative. 01:18:28.560 --> 01:18:34.560 But I think for me, it matters that I continue to get better at things myself. 01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:36.399 No, I I view it the same way. 01:18:36.479 --> 01:18:36.640 Okay. 01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:37.920 I view it through a different lens. 01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:38.319 Okay. 01:18:38.479 --> 01:18:43.920 So if we start by playing pickleball and you crush me on every game, right? 01:18:44.399 --> 01:18:48.640 I end up getting so good that I end up coming back and whipping your ass in pickleball. 01:18:48.720 --> 01:18:48.880 Yeah. 01:18:49.039 --> 01:18:51.840 That means that I've gotten significantly better than I was before. 01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:52.319 Sure. 01:18:52.479 --> 01:18:52.720 Yeah. 01:18:52.880 --> 01:18:53.119 Sure. 01:18:53.359 --> 01:19:02.960 So it it is a mark, a mark of like mileage of bettering myself through having a goal to strive for. 01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:14.720 If I cannot be the best in the world, then I need to be better than something else that is attainable, which most of the time is like the figurative you. 01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:15.279 Okay. 01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:15.680 Yeah. 01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:17.359 And I'm realistic about it. 01:19:17.439 --> 01:19:22.319 I know that there's like there's guys at the gym that I trained Muay Thai at that are always going to be better than me. 01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:29.199 But as long as I keep striving to become better than them, then I will always continuously be progressing. 01:19:29.439 --> 01:19:30.000 Got it. 01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:30.479 Okay. 01:19:30.880 --> 01:19:35.039 So let's talk a little bit about how you started your business and your approach to the business model. 01:19:35.199 --> 01:19:47.279 Because I also feel like the mentality that you've developed over time, I think offered a really interesting perspective on how you viewed the tattooing as a business. 01:19:47.520 --> 01:19:47.760 Yeah. 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:51.520 So talk a little bit about your shop and the model that you use. 01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:52.159 Okay. 01:19:52.560 --> 01:19:57.039 Uh my model is the there's there is no model. 01:19:57.119 --> 01:20:02.640 I'm trying to kind of like forge the model for what is um available for a tattoo shop in Pittsburgh. 01:20:03.119 --> 01:20:22.960 Everything that we do in the shop is all based off of things that while I was um a regular client, or during the things that I saw in all of the shops that I've worked at up until this point, opening my own, everything that I hated about those experiences, or everything that I hated about the shops that I worked in, I'm doing the exact opposite in my shop. 01:20:23.279 --> 01:20:33.039 So most of the shops that I went into whenever I was just a client, you walk in and everybody kind of acts like like they didn't want you to be there as the client. 01:20:33.279 --> 01:20:35.439 I've experienced that in every tattoo shop I've been in. 01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:36.000 Yeah. 01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:43.119 There's there's uh it's kind of a meme now where you walk into a tattoo shop and the guy behind the counter is like, you want to fucking tattoo? 01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:44.960 Get out of here, get out of my face. 01:20:45.600 --> 01:20:46.960 What do you mean you want me to do my job? 01:20:47.119 --> 01:20:48.720 You can go fuck yourself,

right? 01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:52.479 So uh I went the exact opposite of that. 01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:58.239 Or like I would go into a shop and like, hey, don't get me wrong, I like death metal, right? 01:20:58.399 --> 01:20:59.840 I have a soft spot in my heart for it. 01:20:59.920 --> 01:21:02.239 It's not my favorite, but I can appreciate it. 01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:02.720 Sure. 01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:05.920 Every shop that I went into that was just blasting death metal. 01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:08.640 Hey, dude, I'm getting my ribs tattooed for seven hours. 01:21:08.800 --> 01:21:11.279 The last thing that I want to hear is cannibal corpse. 01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:11.600 Yes. 01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:12.560 Okay, yes. 01:21:12.800 --> 01:21:15.119 So could we tone it down except a little bit? 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:18.079 Yeah, so I'm very selective about the music that that gets played. 01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:20.560 Not to the point to where like nobody else can play music. 01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:23.199 Obviously, you could play whatever the hell you want in there. 01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:28.720 I just don't want it to be like 200 BPM of just aggressive cookie monster vocals the entire time. 01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:29.760 Right, you know? 01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.279 Um love that. 01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:38.239 Yeah, when you walk into the shop, it's uh extremely inviting from the the the warmth of the color scheme, right? 01:21:38.399 --> 01:21:52.560 So um we have uh like chair rail, you know, like a third of the way up the wall, and it's just like jet black on the way down, and everything up from the the top above there is like a very warm, velvety cherry cola color. 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:52.880 Yeah. 01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:57.680 So as soon as you walk in, it's warm and it feels welcome. 01:21:57.840 --> 01:21:59.680 We don't have a lobby, we have a lounge. 01:21:59.840 --> 01:22:02.479 Okay, you know, you go in and fucking kick your feet up. 01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:04.479 There's a fully stocked fridge at all times. 01:22:04.640 --> 01:22:08.800 You can come in, grab a drink, uh, make yourself a hot tea if you want to. 01:22:09.119 --> 01:22:12.399 There's a snack bin on top with like really awesome snacks. 01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:15.920 You're lucky if you get a bottle of water and a Kit Kat bar for most tattoo shops. 01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:19.760 I've never gotten a Kit Kat bar, I've never gotten offered a snack at a tattoo shop. 01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:20.640 Oh, yeah, by the way. 01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:23.439 I am constantly feeding you snacks whenever you come in. 01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:23.680 Yeah. 01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:23.920 Yeah. 01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:24.159 Yeah. 01:22:24.319 --> 01:22:28.560 There's a giant neon sign that says make yourself at home as soon as you walk through the door. 01:22:28.720 --> 01:22:37.039 You know, if you end up getting cold from the uh the adrenaline dump that you get, we actually have like branded blankets

that we can give to you, and then you get to take it home. 01:22:37.119 --> 01:22:38.800 It's like a really nice little fleece blanket. 01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:43.520 Yeah, you know, and we're like always fully stocked with merchandise and and all of this stuff. 01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:48.640 But the main thing about the shop is that the entire thing is based around the client experience. 01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:51.600 From the moment you walk through the door until the time that you leave. 01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:54.399 You enter as a stranger and you leave as a friend. 01:22:54.479 --> 01:22:54.800 Yeah. 01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:58.319 That's the entire purpose of everything that I built around it. 01:22:58.479 --> 01:23:05.680 Nobody at the shop is a smoker, so nobody's taking, you know, 20-minute smoke breaks every half an hour while you're getting tattooed. 01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:07.119 Which is annoying as fuck. 01:23:07.359 --> 01:23:13.840 You come in for a five-hour tattoo session, you get tattooed for an hour and a half of it, and the majority of it is them not having their drawing prepared. 01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:20.880 They had to draw the rest of it, and then they're taking a smoke break every fucking 30 minutes and taking forever, and you're just sitting there bleeding all over the floor, you know? 01:23:21.199 --> 01:23:21.520 Right. 01:23:21.680 --> 01:23:24.239 Uh, and then you get charged for five hours of tattooing. 01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:24.640 Yeah. 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:24.960 Yeah. 01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:26.479 Um, we just don't do that. 01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:34.319 I loved when you were first talking to me about this model because to me it sounds like the spa. 01:23:34.720 --> 01:23:38.560 You're you're you have created uh kind of a little bit. 01:23:38.720 --> 01:23:47.760 I mean, that it is anything that is around making a client feel welcome and relaxed and you have warm blankets, that's spa-like. 01:23:47.840 --> 01:23:48.079 Yeah. 01:23:48.319 --> 01:23:52.079 So you've basically created almost a tattoo spa in a way. 01:23:52.239 --> 01:23:52.479 Yeah. 01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:55.680 And well, it still has that tattoo shop feeling, though. 01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:57.600 Well, I mean, it would it is a tattoo shop. 01:23:57.680 --> 01:23:57.760 Yeah. 01:23:57.920 --> 01:23:59.039 So of course it's gonna feel like that. 01:23:59.119 --> 01:23:59.279 Yeah. 01:23:59.359 --> 01:23:59.600 Yeah. 01:23:59.840 --> 01:24:01.920 That's the thing, is trying trying to ride that line. 01:24:02.079 --> 01:24:02.319 Sure. 01:24:02.479 --> 01:24:06.239 You know, it's not like you walk in and it's like, oh, is this a tattoo shop or a salon? 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:06.560 Right. 01:24:06.640 --> 01:24:07.600 You know, right, right, right. 01:24:07.840 --> 01:24:10.640 You still know right away from from walking in. 01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:22.479 But it yeah, everything is just based around like, I want every single person that comes in to not only be happy with the tattoo, but I want them to leave with a really good memory. 01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:22.800 Yeah. 01:24:23.039 --> 01:24:26.479 Because every time you look at that tattoo, you're gonna remember how good of a time you had. 01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:28.239 And then it's gonna make you want another one. 01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:42.479 I mean, here's the here's the thing is like I'd rather be covered in mediocre tattoos from somebody I really enjoy being around and getting tattooed by than have like a masterpiece back piece that every session was just a drag because the guy was a complete asshole. 01:24:42.640 --> 01:24:42.880 Yeah. 01:24:43.039 --> 01:24:44.560 I actually really love that perspective. 01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:45.039 Yeah. 01:24:45.279 --> 01:24:56.960 One of the things that I thought was so cool about the sort of why behind what you're doing was also because you talked a little bit about the oversaturation of tattoo artists. 01:24:57.119 --> 01:24:59.600 Can you just talk a little bit about that as well? 01:25:00.720 --> 01:25:01.680 Well, okay. 01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:06.720 So I think the the oversaturation with tattoo artist thing is a little bit overplayed. 01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:12.880 There's a lot of artists that are quitting the industry right now because they either got into it like right at the COVID boom. 01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:22.079 And now that we're going through a slower time in the the tattoo industry, they're like, oh, fuck this, and they're abandoning ship, which if that's the case, good riddance. 01:25:22.319 --> 01:25:24.000 You weren't welcome here in the first place. 01:25:24.239 --> 01:25:29.680 Uh, if you saw tattooing as just a way to pay your bills, then okay, yeah. 01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:31.520 But this is like my life. 01:25:31.840 --> 01:25:33.279 I this is my culture, right? 01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:33.840 Right. 01:25:34.079 --> 01:25:35.840 So goodbye, who cares? 01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:57.680 But I'm seeing a lot of really, really amazingly talented tattooers right now who are quitting that cannot book to save their life, and they are blaming it on oversaturation, they're blaming it on too many tattoo artists in too small of an area, and everybody's just undercutting them, and they're not able to charge what they feel that they're worth, and blah, blah, blah. 01:25:57.840 --> 01:25:59.119 Here's the thing, man. 01:25:59.439 --> 01:26:01.920 Maybe your bedside manner just fucking sucks. 01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:04.720 Maybe people just do not like being tattooed by you. 01:26:04.960 --> 01:26:05.439 Gotcha. 01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:06.239 Yeah. 01:26:07.119 --> 01:26:10.479 Because here's the thing is like I I charge a premium. 01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:16.800 And I and I think that I'm a great tattooer, but I don't think that I'm the best tattooer. 01:26:17.359 --> 01:26:25.600 You could probably go somewhere else and you could pay less money and maybe get a better tattoo, but I'm telling you

right now, you are not going to get a better experience than what I provide at the shop. 01:26:25.760 --> 01:26:27.680 And that's just that that just is what it is. 01:26:27.840 --> 01:26:28.000 Right. 01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:34.479 And I think it's because I didn't have a love for visual art first, but I had a love for the tattoo industry first. 01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:34.640 Yeah. 01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:37.439 And I had a love for the client experience first. 01:26:37.760 --> 01:26:45.680 I think that that's why I've been able to stay busy through every single slow season that we've that we've endured, in at least in my time of tattooing. 01:26:45.920 --> 01:26:46.079 Yeah. 01:26:46.239 --> 01:27:04.960 I think one of the interesting things that you had mentioned that I found probably there's some truth here, just even as a consumer, as I'm viewing, is that social media helped to create a boom, but I think it also helps to create a format where people can see somebody's work too. 01:27:05.359 --> 01:27:15.680 And so if they're not gonna have a good experience, they've got all these other people that they're seeing on social media that they can go choose from to go get a different experience somewhere. 01:27:15.840 --> 01:27:16.079 Yep. 01:27:16.319 --> 01:27:22.079 You can go anywhere in Pittsburgh and you can get a tattoo almost as good as a tattoo that we provide at the show. 01:27:22.159 --> 01:27:22.800 I gotta say, almost. 01:27:22.880 --> 01:27:23.039 Yeah. 01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:23.840 Yeah, of course. 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:24.319 Of course. 01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:27.359 Or or or just as good, being completely honest. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:38.399 But I I do not think that there's gonna be any other shop that you can go to in Pittsburgh where you will feel as welcome or you will have as good of a experience as a client. 01:27:38.560 --> 01:27:38.880 Yeah. 01:27:39.119 --> 01:27:49.119 And then talk a little bit about your client return rate, because as a person who has worked in, first of all, marketing adjacent like career, your shop is a marketer's dream, by the way. 01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:58.560 Anything that touches on client experience, the way that you're talking about it, oh my God, it's like marketing for that is has to be amazing and and fun and fulfilling. 01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:04.640 But also the component That I think is also really important is data, and yeah, I come from that background. 01:28:04.800 --> 01:28:12.800 And so when you started talking about like oh yeah, the numbers and like your client returning it, I was like, Oh my god, this is so amazing! You're like doing data-driven tattooing. 01:28:13.039 --> 01:28:13.840 This is so cool. 01:28:14.079 --> 01:28:14.720 Do you have the number? 01:28:14.800 --> 01:28:15.199 I don't remember. 01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:17.119 I don't have it on in my notes. 01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:20.800 I think it was something around like a 64% client return rate. 01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:22.239

I I think you might be right. 01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:24.000 Yeah, I think that's right. 01:28:24.159 --> 01:28:24.319 Yeah. 01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:26.319 Let me find you in my notebook. 01:28:26.399 --> 01:28:26.479 Yeah. 01:28:26.720 --> 01:28:29.119 Because I probably would have written in my my scribble. 01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:33.760 And that that's not just for that, that's not for the shop, that's just for me personally. 01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:34.319 Okay. 01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:34.800 Yeah. 01:28:35.039 --> 01:28:35.359 Okay. 01:28:35.600 --> 01:28:44.479 For the shop in general, it's probably higher because I see the artists that work at my shop, they are constantly tattooing the same people over and over and over again. 01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:46.000 That was spot on, by the way. 01:28:46.159 --> 01:28:46.640 64. 01:28:46.880 --> 01:28:47.439 64%. 01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:50.960 Hey, ever since I got sober, my memory hasn't been that bad. 01:28:51.439 --> 01:28:52.079 I love it. 01:28:52.239 --> 01:28:52.800 I love it. 01:28:52.960 --> 01:28:53.279 Yeah. 01:28:53.520 --> 01:29:03.119 Before we wrap, I actually want to move totally away from all the things we were just talking about and go back to something that you were talking about earlier, which was you had this early love of the WWE. 01:29:03.359 --> 01:29:03.760 Oh, yeah. 01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:06.640 And so I have to ask who is your favorite wrestler? 01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:07.439 And why? 01:29:07.760 --> 01:29:09.520 Well, I'm gonna give you my top five. 01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:10.720 Okay, let's go. 01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:12.000 Uh, Brock Lesnar. 01:29:12.319 --> 01:29:12.880 Yes. 01:29:13.119 --> 01:29:21.600 Um, because corn fed human specimen, just the most impressive human being I have ever seen with my eyes. 01:29:21.680 --> 01:29:21.920 Okay. 01:29:22.079 --> 01:29:22.399 Yep. 01:29:22.560 --> 01:29:25.439 Number two would be uh Shawn Michaels. 01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:25.760 Okay. 01:29:26.000 --> 01:29:26.800 Heartbreak Kid. 01:29:26.880 --> 01:29:27.039 Yeah. 01:29:27.199 --> 01:29:30.000 Sweet chin music, my favorite finisher of all time. 01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:30.560 Love it. 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:33.600 Like just runs up and kicks you right in the jaw. 01:29:33.760 --> 01:29:41.760 His pants were always cool, you know, like like with the the like the broken like zebra hearts or the you know what I mean? 01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:44.560 And like the entrance music was just fucking insane. 01:29:44.640 --> 01:29:48.720 Like everything about Shawn Michaels was just like the coolest. 01:29:48.960 --> 01:29:57.439 Stone Cold Steve Austin, Texas Rattlesnake, yes, Stone Cold Stunner, I mean, come on, of course, yeah, just yeah, absolutely. 01:29:58.399 --> 01:30:21.439 Jeff Hardy just because of the his style was so cool, and like the face painting and like the things he would wear on his arms, and the high flying shit, doing front flips onto people from like on top of the Titentron

through tables and like the stuff that he put his body through for our entertainment is unreal. 01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:21.920 Yes. 01:30:22.560 --> 01:30:38.960 And then I would have to say, um I have my PC answer, which is um Kurt Engel, because he's from Pittsburgh, and Kurt Engel just rules, won a gold medal uh at the Olympics with a with a broken neck, just amazing. 01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:48.000 Uh but my actual number five would probably be a tie between Kane and The Undertaker. 01:30:48.239 --> 01:30:48.560 Okay. 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:48.960 Yeah. 01:30:49.119 --> 01:30:49.439 Okay. 01:30:49.520 --> 01:30:49.760 Yeah. 01:30:49.920 --> 01:30:54.640 I think that that would probably be the only one of your top five that would be in my top five with the The Undertaker. 01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:55.920 Brothers of Destruction. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:57.600 Just of course, so cool. 01:30:57.840 --> 01:30:59.359 The Undertaker was my all-time favorite. 01:30:59.439 --> 01:31:00.000 Oh, yeah. 01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:01.039 My all-time favorite. 01:31:01.199 --> 01:31:01.439 Yeah. 01:31:01.520 --> 01:31:01.680 Yeah. 01:31:01.840 --> 01:31:02.079 Yeah. 01:31:02.159 --> 01:31:03.119 He's in my top five. 01:31:03.199 --> 01:31:11.600 And if you ask me tomorrow, that that the the you know, the list might change with the the the the movement might, you know, might be like, oh fuck it, Shawn Michaels, dude. 01:31:11.680 --> 01:31:11.760 Yeah. 01:31:11.840 --> 01:31:12.560 All day, every day. 01:31:13.039 --> 01:31:13.279 Of course. 01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:13.920 Of course. 01:31:14.239 --> 01:31:14.479 Love it. 01:31:14.720 --> 01:31:16.159 Okay, so who are who are your top five then? 01:31:16.319 --> 01:31:16.800 So that's just it. 01:31:16.880 --> 01:31:25.279 I don't know if I've ever looked at it from the top five perspective, but if I if I had to pick, well, Undertaker for sure, is is in my top five. 01:31:25.439 --> 01:31:27.760 Um, Mankind is in my top five. 01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:28.479 Mick Foley. 01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:29.439 I love McFoley. 01:31:29.600 --> 01:31:31.039 Cactus Jack, dude love, love. 01:31:32.000 --> 01:31:34.000 Like every character he did. 01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:34.399 Yeah. 01:31:34.720 --> 01:31:37.520 And also, total sidebar, love him as a writer. 01:31:37.680 --> 01:31:38.000 Yeah. 01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:39.359 His writing is amazing. 01:31:39.439 --> 01:31:39.680 Yeah. 01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:41.199 So Love Mankind. 01:31:41.359 --> 01:31:44.159 I had this thing when I was a kid for Jake the Snake. 01:31:44.399 --> 01:31:46.079 Oh, yeah, Jake the Snake Roberts. 01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:46.479 Why? 01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:46.880 Of course. 01:31:47.279 --> 01:31:49.920 Could not tell you why, but there was something about that. 01:31:50.079 --> 01:31:50.399 Yeah. 01:31:50.640 --> 01:32:00.239 It's so fucking cheesy as a grown-up to go back and look at old footage and to see that whole like the snake out of the bag, and oh my god,

it was so stupid. 01:32:00.479 --> 01:32:05.920 I still remember seeing the clips of him tying up uh macha man in the ropes and then having the snake bite him. 01:32:06.640 --> 01:32:07.199 Yes, yeah. 01:32:07.600 --> 01:32:08.640 So Jake the Snake. 01:32:08.720 --> 01:32:09.359 Yeah. 01:32:09.760 --> 01:32:21.600 Um, I'm gonna have to say, and and I don't know if this counts as one or two because they were tag team partners, but I was always like this massive fan of the road dog Jesse James and Badass Billy Gunn. 01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:22.880 Degeneration X. 01:32:23.039 --> 01:32:30.960 And I didn't love all of Degeneration X because I hated fucking Triple H so but so much, but love badass Billy Gunn. 01:32:31.039 --> 01:32:31.119 Yeah. 01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:32.800 And I loved Shawn Michaels. 01:32:32.960 --> 01:32:36.479 And yes, I always had a love-hate thing for Shawn Michaels. 01:32:36.720 --> 01:32:40.640 But and then, so that's if that counts as two, then that's five. 01:32:40.720 --> 01:32:42.159 But if it counts as one because it stags. 01:32:43.279 --> 01:32:47.680 I'll count him as one because I counted um Kane and Undertaker as one of Brothers of Destruction. 01:32:48.239 --> 01:32:48.640 Fair enough. 01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:54.159 Then I I think I have to say, and this is I it's so kicking at old school, but Andre the Giant. 01:32:54.479 --> 01:32:55.119 Oh yeah. 01:32:55.279 --> 01:32:56.319 Yeah, but come on. 01:32:56.479 --> 01:32:56.720 Yeah. 01:32:56.880 --> 01:33:03.199 But I mean, he was like, so some of those guys, like D Generation X and The Rock, and I mean you were of that age. 01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:03.600 Yeah. 01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:07.119 Well, and I was of that age when like here's the thing. 01:33:07.199 --> 01:33:13.520 With the I think The Rock and Ric Flair, when it comes to promos, nobody was better than nobody was better than The Rock. 01:33:13.680 --> 01:33:13.920 Yeah. 01:33:14.079 --> 01:33:14.720 No, I agree. 01:33:14.800 --> 01:33:14.960 Yeah. 01:33:15.039 --> 01:33:16.319 And I'll give you Ric Flair too. 01:33:16.399 --> 01:33:19.359 He's a little bit of a cheesy, cheesy one, but yes. 01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:19.600 Yeah. 01:33:19.840 --> 01:33:20.720 I totally agree with you. 01:33:20.960 --> 01:33:21.039 Yeah. 01:33:21.199 --> 01:33:21.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:21.840 Yeah. 01:33:21.920 --> 01:33:24.399 Although Stone Cold, I always thought was really good at that too. 01:33:24.560 --> 01:33:27.279 You know, he improved the Austin 316. 01:33:27.920 --> 01:33:28.319 What? 01:33:28.479 --> 01:33:28.960 Yep. 01:33:29.199 --> 01:33:31.600 Did I know he improved that in the promo? 01:33:31.680 --> 01:33:32.000 Yeah. 01:33:32.239 --> 01:33:32.560 Wow. 01:33:32.720 --> 01:33:32.960 Yep. 01:33:33.199 --> 01:33:34.000 Well, it was brilliant. 01:33:34.399 --> 01:33:36.560 Austin 316 says, I just whooped your ass. 01:33:36.640 --> 01:33:37.600 Yeah, he improved that. 01:33:37.680 --> 01:33:40.000

And it was the most genius thing that you could have ever done. 01:33:40.239 --> 01:33:40.399 Yeah. 01:33:40.720 --> 01:33:43.039 It's it is weird to me, like how I love it. 01:33:43.439 --> 01:33:47.520 That's the highest selling t-shirt from the WWE of all time is the Austin 360. 01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:48.239 Is it really? 01:33:48.319 --> 01:33:48.640 Yep. 01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:49.520 That's wild. 01:33:49.680 --> 01:33:55.840 That's I have a um I have a Stone Cold Steve Austin Christmas ornament, and I also have an Undertaker Christmas ornament. 01:33:56.000 --> 01:33:56.479 That's amazing. 01:33:56.720 --> 01:34:01.680 Yes, they're they're balls, they're just like little Christmas balls, and they have yeah, the Undertaker and Stone Cold on them. 01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:01.920 Yeah. 01:34:02.159 --> 01:34:04.079 Did you have a favorite wrestling faction? 01:34:04.239 --> 01:34:05.279 Was it DX? 01:34:05.920 --> 01:34:07.760 Um, that's a really great question. 01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:10.960 No, I don't think I did. 01:34:11.279 --> 01:34:11.600 Okay. 01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:13.760 I don't really think I did. 01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:22.720 But that era, I thought was it's so interesting because I know it speaks to like men like a lot. 01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:23.119 Yeah. 01:34:23.359 --> 01:34:26.319 And it should not have spoken to me the way that it did. 01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:27.359 Well, no, no, no. 01:34:27.439 --> 01:34:28.720 My younger sister loved it too. 01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:29.039 Really? 01:34:29.199 --> 01:34:29.520 Oh yeah. 01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:29.840 Yeah. 01:34:29.920 --> 01:34:35.520 I always I sometimes when I have conversations like that with people, Leto, like I get that tr Trish uh Trish. 01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:38.159 And uh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:51.600 But yeah, I I there was something about I think, I think just be like having a more metal mentality growing up, it always felt silly that people would put like these rules about like etiquette and how you're supposed to act. 01:34:51.760 --> 01:34:57.520 And so to me, that whole attitude era was like the big fuck you to all of that. 01:34:57.680 --> 01:34:59.439 Yeah, and that's that spoke to me. 01:34:59.680 --> 01:35:00.479 Oh, it's punk rock. 01:35:00.640 --> 01:35:01.039 I loved it. 01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:02.239 Yeah, absolutely loved it. 01:35:02.399 --> 01:35:06.399 That's why I love so my favorite faction of all time, even though none of them are in my top five. 01:35:06.479 --> 01:35:08.239 My favorite faction is the NWO. 01:35:08.399 --> 01:35:08.800 Really? 01:35:08.960 --> 01:35:09.199 Yeah. 01:35:09.359 --> 01:35:11.600 Oh, I do okay, yeah, yeah. 01:35:11.840 --> 01:35:16.800 Just Hulk Hogan, you know, like laying people out and spray painting NWO on their back. 01:35:16.960 --> 01:35:18.079 Like, how disrespectful are you? 01:35:18.479 --> 01:35:19.119 Very disrespectful. 01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:25.279 And uh Razor Ramon and Diesel went over and and just went by their real names, and and like, yeah. 01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:26.800 I did love Kevin Nash. 01:35:26.960 --> 01:35:29.039 Oh, he's yeah, big sexy. 01:35:29.279 --> 01:35:38.000 Yes, yes, but it is funny because like the WWE was like this thing that I absolutely loved, like when I was a kid, and then like in young adulthood. 01:35:38.159 --> 01:35:40.079 Yeah, and then it went away for me. 01:35:40.159 --> 01:35:44.079 And I will tell you, like, John Cena never got into him as like a wrestler. 01:35:44.159 --> 01:35:44.720 Yeah, me neither. 01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:46.319 I fucking love him as a human being. 01:35:46.479 --> 01:35:47.279 I love him as an actor. 01:35:47.439 --> 01:35:49.600 Oh my god, he's great as in in comedy. 01:35:50.079 --> 01:35:51.600 All of his comedy movies are so good. 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:53.199 So much better than The Rock. 01:35:53.359 --> 01:35:53.600 Yep. 01:35:53.760 --> 01:35:54.560 There, I said it. 01:35:54.720 --> 01:35:55.840 Yep, way better. 01:35:56.079 --> 01:35:57.119 I don't even think it's close. 01:35:57.279 --> 01:35:58.159 Yeah, way better. 01:35:58.319 --> 01:35:58.960 No, yeah. 01:35:59.199 --> 01:36:01.600 Well, Seth, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. 01:36:01.840 --> 01:36:02.880 I had like a ton of fun. 01:36:03.119 --> 01:36:03.439 Thank you. 01:36:03.520 --> 01:36:05.920 Yeah, this was uh really, really fun for me.