رونوشت کامل 17. Ian Rumsby - Accessibility, Curiosity and Judgement

that's the tension or that dichotomy between, as soon as I read the psychology and sociology piece, I'm like, that makes sense. And then I thought, wait a minute, I know something that is not greatly known, that you ended up in the Navy. And I think that background makes sense around needing structure, but also there's definitely adventure and exploring in the Navy at the same time, correct? that's, there's a, yeah. Ian Rumsby: Yeah, there is. yeah, there is. Look, I I think it's very easy to sit here. Anyone talk to you about their career and their life experiences and so on. And I think it's, it's a, if someone tells you they've got things mapped out, they're either delusional or they're lying. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: There is a... retrospectively we can frame these things so that they fit with the path that we've taken. But at the time it was Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: really difficult to know. And I think when I look at sort of people stepping into their career now or in the early stages or wondering what to do next, know, there's, I still think there's a lot of people beat themselves up about the fact that, you know, they haven't. taken a particular direction or gone on a journey that they are expecting. For me, my studies at university exposed me to different ways of thinking. I mean, was a long Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: time ago, but London in the late 80s in the area of London which I was studying and working was a... It was a cultural collision in so many different ways, I? Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: it was, you know, sort of the studies of that kind of study and that kind of environment was made a huge impression on me. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: You then, California, Mexico thing was, you know, we're just a part that. But. Well, was some other. Jye Smith: I like how you casually got Mexico into that. Ian Rumsby: Yeah, yeah. Anyway. That was fun. I've still got the poncho, let's put it like that. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: But the Navy thing was, again, people sort of talk about a military background or military experience or... Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: Navy and you know the immediate, the obvious thing is it teaches you about leadership. It doesn't teach you about leadership in a sense of you know how you get people to do things in a specific structural way as people may think about it. What The military environment is about military doesn't even have doesn't even respond to current to regular civilian law. It has something called the Queen's Regs and the Queen's Regs is a whole different legal framework in which you operate. So it is a is more than an adjunct to civilian life. Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: People respond to you based on the number of stripes that they have on their sleeves. Or least you think so when you sort of come out of officer training and off you go. And what I learned like super, super fast is I came out of officer training. We need to move on to other things, but I went on to officer training,

came out of officer training. I went into fleet. I went into fishery protection and fishery protection is what it is. It's basically ensuring that, you know, people are, their nets are not too small. You're boarding French trawlers in the middle of the North Ocean, Atlantic. November in the North Sea it was a what do call it life-reinforcing I guess. There you go all of that but Jye Smith: Character development, character building. Ian Rumsby: you're on one of these vessels with only 40 people on it in those days just men. Most of the people in Fisheries Protection had been doing it for 30 years. They saw a new Jye Smith: Hmm. Ian Rumsby: sort of file of kids coming out of Officer Nate, you know, training with their polished buttons and a smart shirt and zero idea. And you learn how to, they are there to make your life challenging. and you learn very quickly that they actually have the power. They may not have the stripes, but they have the power. And that shifted the way in which I thought about bringing people on the proverbial journey to get things done together. And I think in some respects, certainly when I joined, I happened to join that particular ship, HMS Oldenay. This is a throwback. I haven't thought about this stuff for a long time. So this is a bit of a psychological journey for me as well. But I had to join that ship with a guy who obviously had very, out of officer training, who obviously had very high opinion of himself, which perhaps made my life on that boat a little easier because he was the one that got the attention, so to speak. Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: But it was fascinating. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: And I would do it again. It was an interesting time because it was just sort of around the start of the first Gulf War. So that kind of became Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: quite interesting. yeah, it shows my age, The war of the roses. Jye Smith: We're almost back to another war, so, you know. Yeah. So with that in the background, I saw it before. Ian Rumsby: I apologize for my cup. Sorry, it's a little bit colorful, it's Friday, right? Jye Smith: If we think about that as sort of you know, act one in the Rumsby tale, act two is certainly the PR man, the PR career. And 20 years in one agency is a long time. Sophia Brockman, who was on early in this show, she did 11 years at Wagner Edstrom from intern through to international planning director. But for you, what does it take to keep moving in one agency for that long? And what kept you there? Ian Rumsby: I think when people say that they've been with a company or firm or consultancy for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, whatever it may be, it almost sounds as if it was a sentence or a punishment. It's absolutely not. I you remember when Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: I joined, I left London with Grey, advertised GCI, and came here to help them set up an office. in Sydney for the Sydney Olympics, right? So was a long time ago. And it was at that time that Weber was formed. So I joined Weber-Shamwick right at the beginning where it was run out of New York, still is, run out of New York by some formidable characters who forced... Sandwick and Weber and others together to collaborate, to make something happen. And I think when you're when you're part of that, when you're sort of at the beginning of that particular journey, you're you you see how how the firm had a consultancy began to evolve and you were very much a part of it as well. So, you know, three years, five years passed incredibly quickly and reality is as well. I I think with these sorts of things it's you I happened to be involved in something that through the work and effort and energy of a lot of people rose to the top and I wouldn't say that I wrote on the coattails of that all but I was certainly I was fortunate to be surrounded by people who were very good at what they did very passionate about what they did and who were naturally and inherently looking for how do we go to the next stage and who within our firm today is able to help us do that. And so because I was with it, I think from the beginning, I was able to, you know, sort of considered a... hopefully a bit more than a safe bear of hands, but at least somebody that could actually take on opportunity and do something with it as well, which was all part of the learning experience in the beginning of the Weber-Shamank days. And you find yourself... It's like an international flight, right? mean, if anyone who's sort of flown from Sydney to London, I'm sure many of your listeners, watchers have, is the idea of how do I segment this journey into four meals Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: and two movies and one book and, you know, seven hours of sleep or whatever it is. And I think that my career at Weber in some respects is a bit like that. I look at it as a Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: series of careers that just happen to be in one place. Jye Smith: And that's it. sounds like to me it was more like business building than working inside an agency because you were there at those formative moments but also you kind of made the most of whatever the next iteration of agencies are. And if there's one thing that is certain, it's that agencies change quite organically, quite naturally, or sometimes structurally, you know, every four to five years anyway. Ian Rumsby: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, they do. there were certainly, you know, different stages of maturity that the Weber business went through. I think you probably, you if you looked at the numbers historically, if you're interested in that, you'd sort of see high trajectory of growth, a leveling out, another high trajectory. And Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: most businesses do that. It's really a bit of a ladder of growth, right, but just happens to go at a Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: 30 degree angle or something. Jye Smith: From the 2000s, quite literally 2000 for the Olympic Games, or I imagine a little bit before that, I think it was 98, 99, to when you

departed, how had you changed? Because I think for most of us who worked with you and for you, you'd kind of just see Ian, I'm like, yeah, I this is how he's always been, but I'm kind of convinced that you would have learned through that journey as much as the rest of us. Give me a sense for those big agency lessons that you learned. Ian Rumsby: I think that going from grey GCI into, yeah, I wasn't just going from one consultancy into another one. I was going from one city into another one. And Sydney 25 years ago was obviously a very different space. was sort of just beginning to believe itself, I think. Jye Smith: Yeah, yeah. Ian Rumsby: I think what changed, what changed about me with that move was Three things, accessibility, curiosity and judgment. Let me just explain what I mean by that. When it comes to accessibility, I was, as many people are from the UK, I was as British as they were and that meant struggling to sort of, you know... probably socialized beyond defined groups. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: was quite, it was like, and I always remember that moment when I arrived in Sydney and I'd sort of lived here for about two or three months or something. And that decision was a decision that was probably the least considered decision that I have made in my life. But it happened to, there was obviously a reason to do it, but I didn't give myself time to think about it, probably because I knew that Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: if I did, it wouldn't happen. And I think when I arrived here, I didn't know anyone in Sydney. I knew some people in Melbourne, but I didn't know anyone in Sydney. And you have to break through those sort of, you know, that time, that kind of very sort of British reluctance to go out there and just have a normal conversation with people. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: So there was a, that was a big change. In terms of the curiosity bit, think that's what speaks to itself. You have to go out and explore. is a, Sydney and London are fundamentally different places. There is much that is common, but there is a subtle misalignment between the two places. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: And to be able to... If you're going to live somewhere different, if you're going to join a different company, if you're going to marry someone different, whatever it might be, you kind of want to make sure that you you're throwing everything that you have into it. All Jye Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Ian Rumsby: of the time. Not because you have to, but because there is that, and I begin to sound cliche, I know, but there is that sort of richness of experience that comes through. exposing yourself to things that make you feel uncomfortable. And I'm sure we've heard Jye Smith: you. Ian Rumsby: that a hundred times from people, it was very much the lived experience for me. And not chasing something, but just letting stuff almost kind of wash over me and to see what I could catch as Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: that happened. The third element of it, because we love to speak in threes, right, as I said was was judgment and Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: I think that for me is the one thing that is so often overlooked by people. You know, we talk Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: about talent and knowledge and you know... Intelligence is a subset of talent really, as is knowledge as well. Judgment is what Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: is so overlooked. Judgment is bit sensory in some respects. It goes back to Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: maybe what we studied as a uni student. And I think if you allow yourself to be exposed to lots of different things, then you become better at assessing and judging those things. in a way which helps you make better decisions. So that for me was not, you know, this kind of chrysalis moment, but it was certainly, think those areas of accessibility and curiosity and judgment were certainly how I began to change as a consequence Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: of a different working environment with different people in a different city at a very different time as well. Jye Smith: I've had, I think, probably 20 people that I've interviewed so far. And I think in the course of my career, God knows how many people I've spoken to. I think that's probably the first time. And I've literally got goosebumps now, just so you know. I've really thought about judgment. And it's probably because of lots of things going on in my own life right now. But you're 100 % right. Definitely no one teaches you it. formally, but you do learn it through some of the hardest lessons and those situations, as you said, like curiosity brings you to uncomfortable experiences, puts you out of your comfort zone. Yes, it sounds cliche, but the thing it teaches you, the thing it gives you, if you're open to it, is that ability to judge the next situation. Ian Rumsby: Yep. Jye Smith: And I think Katie Chatfield once said, it's like integrity is a thing that you either know you have or you don't have when no one's looking. It's how you behave. I think for growing a business, building a business, being an agency, you are exposed to so many situations, especially in other countries. Like I spent seven years in Hong Kong and it does, teaches you things that you put you in situations you never think you'd have to be put in. Environments, cultures, people, and it does it. You really walk away with a sense of experience and then judgment on that next piece, which I think, you know, as we, you know, and I'm sure at some point we'll talk about AI, but that's really that difference between I have all the answers or I can do whatever I want but should I? What's the judgment I'm applying to this situation today? What's the judgment I'm putting to the next decision about my life and all those sorts of things? Yeah, it's a really, it is, it's sensory. Ian Rumsby: Yeah, it is. the thing about judgment that think you have to acknowledge is that, you know, it's not, you don't become better at judging things through the sort

of the world of hard knocks. You know, it's not about tough experiences that ensure their forms and frames your judgment in a better way. Because there's many people who've been through those sort of challenges, but have terrible Jye Smith: You Ian Rumsby: judgment. I do think judgment is sensory in that sense and I think, yeah, you can learn a little bit about it, but it also depends, as part of it is your demeanor and your approach to things. How, you know, can I deal with a situation in a calm, considered manner? Or am I going to get overly excited based both on my coffee intake and also my personality about certain situations? Do I jump to decisions quickly or all of those kind of things? you've got to be as our friend and mentor Tim Sutton used to say, he always used to use this word effortful, right? And I loved effortful as a concept because I think it just sort of highlighted really whether something was just required too much effort and energy to actually garner the reward or benefit from it. Jye Smith: All right, yeah. Ian Rumsby: Judgment is the habit of making good decisions Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: and as such we need to have a heightened level of self-awareness about how we deal with certain environments very often that are outside of our control. And this does sort of play Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: into the AI piece a little bit. And my, you know, I Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: think my views on that and there's lots of people with lots of views on it. but yeah, quality decision-making is based on the ability to make judgments and I, I, genuinely feel that when we look at our industry and you know I'm sort of more on the of the advisory to some degree policy corporate fair stuff now Jye Smith: Hmm. Ian Rumsby: but that's what clients look for they're not looking for you to understand Jye Smith: Yeah, yeah. Ian Rumsby: everything about their business they're actually infuriating I think for organizations when somebody walks in and says let me tell you what I think When someone listens and asks the right questions and provides considered judgement, that's someone you can work with. Jye Smith: Yeah, I think you've just made me reflect on the last 10 years of my life. Am I the hyped up caffeine person? It's a bit too loud. But Ian Rumsby: No, I wasn't making a comment on you at all. Jye Smith: you know, it's you've got me thinking about can you teach it? Can you learn it? And I agree with you. think just, you know, lots of people that's been through challenging situations and still make terrible calls. I think if I reflect on myself, the piece I got better at was learning to slow down. So maybe it's that my judgment is still the same, but the way I approach judging things is that change like yeah that self-awareness who are you in that situation am I asking enough questions before I make a judgment Or who am I judging who I need to be in this situation? For a lot of our clients, it's the conviction of believing in what they're about to do or giving them the reassurance sometimes, even if it's just emotional more than rational. But I think that's something everyone could think about in terms of how do they judge? Are they a good judge? Can they consistently make good decisions or what to do when you make a bad one? Ian Rumsby: Yeah, it's like I said earlier, I think I really think this is about self-awareness. It's a really important part of it. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: the trick for anyone in anyone's career is understanding what our strengths are and playing to those. I it's not, think, you know, I still to this day, almost every day, find myself in a situation that I find uncomfortable because I'm certainly not the smartest person in the room when it comes to dealing with that particular issue. And today I'm Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: surrounded in the work that I do by a huge number of incredibly intelligent people who are incredibly well informed about an awful lot of things. And that's fabulous. I wouldn't say it's intimidating, but it certainly makes you just go, okay, how do I navigate through that particular environment? Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: that doesn't matter whether that's 30 years ago or whether it's today for me. By understanding what your... or being honest with yourself about where your strengths are and what you can contribute and bring to the working environment or the conversation or whatever it might be. That's when Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: people just begin to sort of settle into themselves. That's when you become a little bit more calm and that's actually when your judgment... begins to thrive as well. So the Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: self-awareness piece is super important. We are on a self-awareness podcast right now, aren't we? This is where this is going. Jye Smith: You know what, did have this, know, again, Sophia who brought it up said one of the best lessons she learned was from Brian who we both know as well. Ian Rumsby: Right. Jye Smith: Brian Keenan, when he said to Sophia one day, like, you've got to be the last person who speaks in a meeting because that was the best cue because Sophia is of my personality of like, I could just answer this right now and in this meeting. one of lessons she shared was that Brian taught her that if you speak last, not only will that have the most gravitas, but you'll probably have a better answer as well. And it is, it's that pause reflection and seeing who you are in a room and I think that's where she made that leap from mid-level strategist who was the smartest person in the room to senior leader in the business who could help a client through an actual challenge. Ian Rumsby: I would counter that and say it's important to be the second last person to speak in the room because simply from an experience I had in Tokyo once where a member of a very large international airline, senior person there, I was sort of there as the sole westerner in the room. And I was working on the principle of

being the last person to speak and therefore sort of to be able to capture everybody else's smarts and say and therefore. Jye Smith: Go. Ian Rumsby: But that didn't happen because he looked at me and said, can I ask why you're here and what you're contributing? Jye Smith: Ha ha ha! Ian Rumsby: So don't be the last person, be the second last. Jye Smith: Okay, that's really good. So moving ahead, was the pandemic and then you founded AEO, one of the best names of A-E-I-O for those of you playing at home, Ian Rumsby: Mm-hmm. Jye Smith: in comms and social innovation consultancy. And then it was acquired by Stonehaven about 18 months later. Tell me what it was about founding your own consultancy and then tell me about the decision to be acquired or to have it acquired. Ian Rumsby: So one of the gigs I had at Weber was in their organisational design and culture transformation piece. also led the sustainability work of the business as well. And I think it always struck me that those things were quite disconnected, but actually they were fundamentally Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: aligned. And it wasn't something that the company was looking at at that particular time. It was also something that... You know, I felt I'm not an activist, far from it. But I felt that I'm a father of two now young men, but two kids Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: who, you know, there's this sense of what am I? We just sort of pushing these sort of corporates in terms of, you know, is this all about valuation ultimately? And there seemed to be a lot of organizations that were They had a business strategy and then somewhere in some part of the corporate warehouse was this ESG sustainability piece. I felt that there at the time, that there was an emerging disconnect between strategic direction and imperatives within an organisation, commercial ambition and need. Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: And then there was this thing called ESG, which no one quite really understood what it meant. And if you think about, you know, environment, social, societal and governance, I mean, they are all connected, but they are, it's a pretty broad church. And look, I mean, I left Weber, you know, but it was COVID and circumstances dictated it. And thought long and hard about what to do next. And This, for me, felt like it was not so much the right thing to do at all. It just felt like a really interesting and exciting opportunity. I had the opportunity to be able to do that at the time. And so that's what we did. There was two or three clients that... that were keen to work. so that business became a business about sustainability strategy design fundamentally. And I think when you start, and you know this, Jye, from your own work, and you were involved in the early days in AI as well, and as much as you own with DoubleStar, and I think that the... You know, you have these ambitions for these organizations that very often are not realized simply because you actually find that what the need is is slightly different to what you thought it was going to be. And so you adapt Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: and change. But I felt the model of AO was what really made it. flourish and work and that was I was able to work with probably half a dozen people from very different worlds. were not kind of outside of consultancy for the most part. You know, worked in big sort of FMCG companies, they're independent freelancers themselves and they brought a very sort of real experience to the projects that we were working on. It was also a what you might want to call a value billing based model in that that, you know, if you have $10 as your Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: budget, then you're basically saying to your, you know, consultant partner, I'm going to give you $2 and I'm going to give you $3 and you know this is what I need you to do. So we weren't Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: watching time sheets or any of that and it gave us much more, I think a lot more sort of flex in the way in which we were able to work on particular programs and I'm really proud of what we did there. Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: But you asked the question the kind of why the Stonehaven thing and It was quite simple really. I when you're doing something like an AO business, which I loved and was remarkably successful in many respects, because Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: you know, you're never quite sure how these things are going to work. Because I think it was the right thing at the right time, despite what Joe Asden had to say about it. Jye Smith: Ha ha ha ha. Ian Rumsby: And the bit that was missing, I think, was twofold. One was that there was clearly a need for greater substance and longevity to what we were trying to do. And that came through research and it came through a particular Jye Smith: Hmm. Ian Rumsby: knowledge and understanding of some of those sort of communities that exist within the sustainability space, particularly NGOs and others as well. And what Stonehaven did, because there was a colleague of mine, a WebA colleague, who was actually working with them at the time, they were able to bring that capability to support what I was trying to do. And at the same time, I was able to help them with some work. The other part of it, and this is sort of a... And it was a moment that again, sort of just reinforced some of my own thinking, was that when you run your own business and the model that I was using at that particular time, which is to surround yourself by supporters, contributors, than necessarily hiring lots of people, I realized very quickly that for me, an essential part of what I actually do when it comes to work is contribute my learning experience to lift up others and to give people others, you know, the opportunity of that experience. Simple as that. And I would hope that anyone who's been around for a while would see that I find that incredibly rewarding, genuinely rewarding when you see other people who you're working with and alongside benefit from what you can

contribute from, make it their own, do something with it and off they go, whether they stay within that Jye Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Ian Rumsby: firm or not. So specific at the capability set, which was missing within AI, which we'd had to have hired in at. huge cost was available to me then. And Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: a more sort of both selfish and selfless recognition that when you've got a lot of people that you can work with, they can just absorb a huge amount from you. And I've just, I Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: took an enormous amount of reward from that. Jye Smith: Yeah. You know, it's the selfish and the selfless people where it's like, I know that makes me the happiest to see my guys move on. Like it's the strangest thing, but you know, Ian Rumsby: Yeah. Jye Smith: one of them was just a creative director at a really big PR firm. And I'm like, when he walked in, he was our junior designer. Ian Rumsby: Yeah. Jye Smith: And like, was a joy to help someone see beyond the Adobe Photoshop and say, well, this is actually how you lead people to a great idea that you've had. And this is how you structure it and being able to see that in him. Yeah, it's the whole reason you do it which is, you know, altruism to him. Ian Rumsby: Well, kind of it is, right? And I think it's, you know, it's not sort of a flimsy sort of wokey idea of, we're not, we're corporates, we're commercial, we're not charities in that instance anyway. Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: And you have to make some, you know, hard business decisions. Everybody does at some point. And so there's going to be plenty of people who, you know, where you're no longer on their Christmas card list. But... Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: Part of that, part of what inspires you to do what you do, beyond sort of culture stuff, is about what can you actually bring to other people as part of this? We're very, Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: very focused on our clients because we're in client Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: service sector and that's a question that we are always asking of what we can bring our clients. For me, it's about what can we bring those people that we work with every day as well, because that, Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: in many respects, if not as important, certainly very much more important sometimes. Jye Smith: Yeah, absolutely. If we move forward to APCO, you one of the things that you chair is the forum conversation on the geopolitical and the geocommersal space and all the different situations that are involved in that. From my point of view, anything geopolitical now, even locally political, comes down to communications. What's your read on that? Is that because we're comms people, so we think everything's about communications, or is it just the world we live in now where narrative trumps truth, you know, almost every time? Ian Rumsby: I... I think we need to understand the difference between advocacy and influence. I think I've Jye Smith: Mmm, yeah. Ian Rumsby: come from a world where advocacy generation, it almost sort has a particular stop point. What are you asking people to do? Influence is a very different skill and task which... is aligned with advocacy, but it's actually focused on something different. APCO is a business that I've known for 30 years. When I was in London, there was an association between the APCO business of those days and the company I was working with at the time. so some of those people who now lead the APCO business globally were people that I'd spent a little bit of time with. when I was in the UK, remembering that that was a time when I was neither accessible, curious or good at judgment. Jye Smith: You Ian Rumsby: And they were so impressive. Those people were Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: so impressive. I mean, really, you really did feel like the sort of the, you know, the muppet at the dinner table sometimes. Jye Smith: Ha Ian Rumsby: But I've had the privilege to work with you know, within 4APCO now for actually for longer than the time that I've been with them because I did some work for them in Australia when I had the AIO business as well. But yeah, mean, they are, you know, they're a firm that with their roots in DC and Washington policy, public affairs, government relations orientated, but very quickly sort of moved into the comms and advocacy space. And now... you know, really it's all that intersection of risk, advocacy, Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: policy and influence. But this point about influence is that this is, and I'm not sure that I've answered your question, maybe it was the concept of fake news that threw me, but I think that, you know, how, what, who do we influence and for what purpose and over what period of time is a... it becomes a bit of a totem on Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: the type of work that needs to be done and that organisations and clients need to be thinking about as well. yeah, can pat ourselves on the back sometimes in this industry of ours when we... you know, you're getting some news or you're getting support from somebody or there is a, you know, there's lots of, I mean, you see it on LinkedIn every day. Couldn't be more proud of this and so on. But maybe that's another, maybe that's a whole nother conversation. Jye Smith: Yeah, just ended. Ian Rumsby: But understanding the difference between advocacy and influence is really important and Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: influence requires... cadence and longevity as well and that's very much what we're focused on. Jye Smith: Yeah. When we think about that broadly, you're on the board for Cure Cancer for eight years, and you've just joined the advisory board for Global Women in PR. What draws you to these organizations, and those two in particular, that is close to your heart, or what's the pull there? Ian Rumsby: I think it is probably what you would expect and that is that there is a problem that needs solving in both of those areas and if I can make a contribution to solve that problem then I

will. Cure Cancer is a wonderful organisation. It's all about seed funding for young researchers. It's cancer agnostic in that it covers all forms of cancer. And from the day that I joined it, the only reason I stepped down from that board was simply just because of the amount of time I was having to spend overseas. And there are other people that were able to give more time. But I think that inherent within charity-based organisations, you have an incredibly passionate and capable team that are running these organisations and in Cure Cancer that's always been the case. Extremely good at what they're doing, particularly when it comes to around fundraising. But I think what happens, and this is the role of the board in those instances, what happens in charities is that strategy often acquiesces to urgency. The urgency Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: and the need to raise funds, the urgency of the task or the issue at hand becomes such that it's just a case of go, just do it. And there's much merit in that, but sometimes... not necessarily with acute cancer, but in some instances you can find organisations losing their way because they chasing the dollar that's required to support the task. The role of board in those instances is very much around both governance but also guidance as well. And if we're talking about sort of learned experience and maybe the judgement piece comes into this. Maybe the person speaking second last in the room comes to this point as well. Because I think your role on the boards of those sort are to understand the challenges and the needs of the executive team within the charity of the organisation and to provide a point of view on how... be able to progress in some areas. Now there is no doubt that when you join those sorts of boards, you're joining it because in part of your relationships in the corporate world or whatever it might be, and ability to therefore raise awareness and possibly even draw in some funding as well. But I found that my time at cancer And we've, so many of us have been touched by cancer. I certainly have, our family have. And you see the work of young people who are overwhelmed by the administrative burden of just gaining research Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: grants. That if you could help them in that area, if you can help them overcome that administrative hurdle, if you can help them, if you can sort of lift them up and give them the opportunity to... to connect with other researchers, which is basically the way in which research works. Ideas and formulations are obviously a consequence of a number of different things, of unexpected things colliding and that's where research-based medical discovery really exists and there's much we can learn about that in the way in which we run organisations as well. But for me, it was a fascinating time and any... any guidance I was able to provide was made it a great experience. Jye Smith: It's really meaningful and impactful and you're right, there's a, I don't

want to say practical nature because it dresses it down, but there's an immediacy to how that contributes, how that helps. It's not up in the air, it's very focused. Ian Rumsby: Yeah. Jye Smith: If we think about the next chapter for you, and APCO is obviously a big part of that, Ian Rumsby: Hmm Jye Smith: how do you start to make those decisions or what guides you or are you 21 and curious about everything so you'll give it a go if it feels right? Because I think anyone who knows you probably wouldn't know that you vibed your way through the front of it, which I think is a great, refreshing, real human piece. But what do you think about next? Ian Rumsby: I'm I think about my kids and their future. I Jye Smith: Yeah, yeah. Ian Rumsby: got one at ANU, at the tail end of his engineering degree. I've got another one doing humanities and unbeknown to him studying sociology and psychology at Macquarie. I like, what? Jye Smith: Yeah Ian Rumsby: I'm sure if I told him that, had to manage my enthusiasm for that because it caused a natural response would have been like, I'm going to go to the science and do something completely different. No, I'm shh. Jye Smith: Well, I hope he doesn't listen to this. Ian Rumsby: I'm sure. Maybe you never know. Maybe you never know. Jye Smith: You Ian Rumsby: What I think about, I mean, the... The work that we're doing at APCO, not a plug, I mean, I just think the work we're doing at APCO is super interesting. It's a very, it's a, I said already, it's a very smart organization. It's an ego-less organization. I am very fortunate to work with a lot of very, very smart people who don't have the need to spend a lot of time talking about themselves for the simple reason Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: that they're smart and they can, they want to make a contribution. And for me, that's really the future for now. I feel like we're in one of those sort of Hello Magazine moments where, know, it's like, yes, these two people are in perfect unison and then suddenly it all evaporates or something. yeah, APCO is doing some really interesting work and it's an independent company. So it's able to sort of invest where it needs to or wants to invest and I'm know blessed to have the chance to work with some some great people but you know, you know my family right? I mean there is My wife Most likely sort of stopped doing what she does as a day job at some point in the next five years or so but here's the thing about about careers and about the work in which that we do so I don't get sort of go off on a tangent about family I think that you get to a point in your career or the work that you do, and we're very fortunate in consultancy because we're exposed to so many different things, is that actually, and some people this is not, doesn't feel right, but actually what I do for a living is not a sort of a job that fuels my life. It's actually Jye Smith: Mmm. Ian Rumsby: completely connected. just, you know, I think if you're interested in stuff

and want to make a contribution and, you know, create some sort of commercial enterprise at the same time, then actually there's sort of, there is this flow of what's a social event and what's a work event and, you know, what are we doing? that contributes to our relationships. There's an interdependency in some respects in the kind of my life in all of its aspects as well. And I'm certainly not a person that when I decide to pull a sort of a cloak over my career, I'm not someone who's gonna be lost and wonder what to do next. Not at all, because it's my... because of all the stuff we've talked about, I think. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: I will say this though, and I mean this to be understood in the right way. For me, sort of coming out of rural Suffolk in the UK, the countryside of the UK, I think I kind of entered the workforce. with a sense of interest and imagination but little expectation. Jye Smith: Mm, mm. Ian Rumsby: And rightly or wrongly, I've probably held onto that Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: sense. And so therefore, by definition, I'm at a point now where I've exceeded my expectations and probably Jye Smith: You Ian Rumsby: the expectations of many other people as well. Not because I sort of look at my, I'm not a point where I'm reflecting on my career at all. I just think that I've been incredibly fortunate, but I've also put myself in the right places. So much of people's career are based on luck, that that's a known quantity, but it's also based on taking the opportunity to sort of... force yourself into human interactions that maybe you wouldn't naturally want to do. The most interesting people are the people that I would have thought were the least interesting people. Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: And I think as long as that's your sort of, if you can make that your philosophy, and kind of understand that you can make an enormous contribution to someone's life in some way without even thinking about it or knowing about it. if you sort of force yourself to explore the views of things that are the views of others and this is particularly true in this sort of polarised world in which we live in. Judgment is not about judging others. It is about, as I say, making good decisions. And that's a very important definition. you know, I'm not a moment of sort of retrospection, is that a word, where we Jye Smith: Yeah. Ian Rumsby: are sort of looking back and reflecting at what could have been done different or better or Jye Smith: Mm. Ian Rumsby: goodness me, what's in the next, you know, the final third of my life at all. It is just a case of... How do I stay enthusiastic about what I do? Jye Smith: It's incredible. One of the things I was gonna, and I didn't because I realized I wouldn't have to, was talk about how your life and work does intertwine because I knew it was from passion. The second thing I was gonna say was, you're never the person I'd ask if you do things differently. I don't know what it was. I just knew that wasn't a right question. wasn't appropriate almost because I know that's probably not what drives you, but I think you put it wonderfully well, is, it's a lot of judgment, it's a lot of luck, but I think you have always made the most of all those opportunities and I think that's what I try and tell everyone around me because that's what I live and breathe by and you've been a great mentor and person who validates that kind of thinking because to other people it can look like chaos and to everyone else it must be really good at what I do and I'm like no, it's a lot of luck. Ian, thank you so much for sharing all that and as Ian Rumsby: It's a pleasure. Jye Smith: usual I've walked away with a whole new set of things to think about. So I really appreciate your time. Ian Rumsby: It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure and hopefully it brings a point of view which is, if not helpful, and certainly interesting to others. But it's been great to catch up, Jye, so thanks.