رونوشت کامل Better Streets w/ Sara Stace

took. 00:05:40:11 - 00:05:46:03 John Simmerman Off he went. Well, that was last year or the year before. 00:05:46:05 - 00:05:51:18 Sara Stace Gosh, I think that was around about 2023 or thereabouts. 00:05:51:19 - 00:06:04:12 John Simmerman Oh my gosh. It's been it's also been a couple of years. Yeah, yeah. Now then you decided to take on the challenge of running a bunch of races. Bunch of marathons. Correct? 00:06:04:15 - 00:06:23:22 Sara Stace That's right. So I was just about to turn 50, and not to be outdone by my father, I thought I could have set a goal before I turned 50. And I thought, I've. I've always been a runner, but I've never run a marathon. I'd never even run a half marathon at that stage. And so I set myself a challenge of doing the Sydney Marathon. 00:06:23:24 - 00:06:37:11 Sara Stace And I absolutely loved every aspect of it. I loved the training, I loved the racing. Younger people who run with the part of my local running club, and I just love every single moment of it. 00:06:37:17 - 00:06:54:12 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. And this is a photo of you at the Sydney Marathon. You can see the smile on your face there. So yeah, you've you've basically got bitten by the running bug. And there's you in the Gold Coast Marathon. How many marathons are we up to now? 00:06:54:15 - 00:07:04:18 Sara Stace I think I've done five and I have two more to go. So in two weeks time I'll do the Sydney Marathon and then a month later is Berlin. 00:07:04:21 - 00:07:17:27 John Simmerman Oh oh my gosh. Fantastic. Now you and I met at Velo city. But you're going to have to refresh my memory. Was it velocity there in Leipzig, Germany? 00:07:18:00 - 00:07:20:16 Sara Stace It it was. That was the one where we met. Yes. 00:07:20:17 - 00:07:24:13 John Simmerman Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. So not far from Berlin. Yeah. 00:07:24:18 - 00:07:27:11 Sara Stace Yeah. That's right. We'll be heading back to the same part of the world. 00:07:27:13 - 00:07:48:01 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Now, I know that as part of that velocity conference, you were sort of angling to try to get velocity as a conference, interested in maybe getting over to Australia. Is there any, any luck that we might be able to do that at some point, at some point in the future? 00:07:48:04 - 00:07:50:05 Sara Stace No, unfortunately. 00:07:50:07 - 00:08:10:15 John Simmerman Yeah. So we met there at the Velocity in Leipzig, Germany. This coming year it will be in Japan. So sort of over in your neck of the woods a little bit, at least for me. I mean, it's just a hop, skip and a jump for, for me in Hawaii to get to Japan. Have you been to Japan? 00:08:10:15 - 00:08:18:15 John Simmerman Have you been able to make it to that part of the world and explore what they're doing from an active mobility infrastructure perspective? 00:08:18:16 - 00:08:51:21 Sara Stace I have actually, I a couple of years ago, I went to Japan to him, in fact, and met with the conference organizers. In fact,

at that point, they were being assessed for the for the EKF were actually there while I was there doing the assessment of the region. And yes, there was a this fantastic event event with about 10,000 locals and they ride across this beautiful part of Japan. 00:08:51:23 - 00:09:18:03 Sara Stace It's called the route and you don't do the whole route, the routes about 70km long. And I did that with my kids for about three days. And you can stay at these beautiful onsen on the way. But it's also got all these bridges, these really spectacular bridges. And normally when you're writing your on the side on the cycleway, but for this event, they open up the bridges, they close it to traffic and people can ride along it. 00:09:18:06 - 00:09:32:05 Sara Stace So we went on that event and it was just absolutely fantastic, as you can see, with those big smiles on our faces. So yes, that's where velocity will be in 2027, I believe in May it will be there. 00:09:32:07 - 00:09:36:10 John Simmerman Okay. I'll try to be there. 00:09:36:12 - 00:09:38:18 John Simmerman Are you going to try to make it as well? 00:09:38:21 - 00:09:46:10 Sara Stace Absolutely. Very much so. I think there'll be quite a few Australians, because it does feel like it's kind of in our neck of the woods, certainly much closer. 00:09:46:12 - 00:10:10:18 John Simmerman Yeah. Yeah. That, that's, that's for sure. And I'm going to pull up a photo of you from a triathlon. There's a connection here. So here you are completing the running portion of a triathlon. And the one and only time I've ever been to Japan, I was there to race a triathlon. 00:10:10:21 - 00:10:32:17 John Simmerman It was really, really fun. And it was. It was actually not far from where Hema is. It was actually, on Mia jima Island, which is in the Hiroshima Prefecture, which is just across the waterway from where the hymn is. So it's, I'm looking forward to returning to that area as well. 00:10:32:19 - 00:10:39:05 Sara Stace It is. And the Japanese do love their competitive sports like this. They love marathons and triathlons and so on. So yes. 00:10:39:05 - 00:11:03:21 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff. Good stuff. Well, we're not here to talk about athletics in sports. We're here to talk about trying to transform our built environment into more livable places. And you have been working on this for the last three decades or so, I would think, there in Australia. How are we doing over there? 00:11:03:23 - 00:11:33:00 Sara Stace We're doing better, I would say. So. I've got some photos to show you from when I last spoke to you in 2023, and since then we've built quite a bit of infrastructure projects. We're in play for decades in some cases, and I would say that the federal government has actually stepped up to the plate. So one of the campaigns I was running with a local charity that I founded about three years ago called Better Streets. 00:11:33:01 - 00:11:34:05 John Simmerman Okay. Well, we we. 00:11:34:10

- 00:11:53:15 John Simmerman Changed locations and hopefully have a stronger bad band with at this point in time. But Sarah, you were just saying that things are looking up and we're seeing a little bit more investment in infrastructure. I'm going to pull up some of the photos that you sent along are walk us through some of these images that we have here. 00:11:53:22 - 00:12:23:04 Sara Stace This is a project called the Greenway. So it connects a river called the cooks River through to Sydney Harbor. It runs about 5 or 6km west of the center of Sydney, the CBD of Sydney. And again, it's a project that's been in play for something like 20 years, so possibly longer actually. They built a light rail, and when they built the light rail, they were meant to build a share path network. 00:12:23:04 - 00:12:44:01 Sara Stace But somebody, somewhere decided that that could be put off to a later. And the problem is often with the infrastructure, if you don't build it at the time, coming and trying to retrofit it is incredibly expensive and very time consuming. And so the community really rallied around this project for decades to get it up and running and built. 00:12:44:04 - 00:13:05:06 Sara Stace And this is the day that it opened, and it was absolutely flooded with members of the community who just adored it. And politicians turned up and snipped the ribbon and got a whole lot of kudos out of it, etc.. So it was a really, really, very well loved community project, this one, and it's about 6 or 7km long. 00:13:05:09 - 00:13:06:18 John Simmerman Okay. 00:13:06:21 - 00:13:20:03 John Simmerman And one would think, you know, that since this is a great opportunity for those ribbon cutting, and it is so beloved that these should get easier, one would think, right. 00:13:20:04 - 00:13:21:17 Sara Stace You would, you would. 00:13:21:18 - 00:13:42:17 Sara Stace Think so. This is another project that took decades. I think I actually started on this in 2008. And Fiona Campbell, who is in that photo there, a lot of people from Australia and internationally know her. She's been working on it for even longer. And as you can see, it has the Harbor Bridge in the background. It used to have 55 steps. 00:13:42:17 - 00:13:57:29 Sara Stace It now has a beautiful ramp, and the pattern on there is an indigenous pattern showing eels moving in and out amongst one another. And also in the background is the family of Mahkota Strat, who's been visiting extremely recently. 00:13:58:01 - 00:14:02:03 John Simmerman Wow. So this was like literally just a couple of days ago. 00:14:02:05 - 00:14:04:23 Sara Stace It was exactly fantastic. 00:14:04:23 - 00:14:37:04 John Simmerman Fantastic. Yes. And Marco has been on the channel before, so I'll be sure to include the link to his episode in the show notes for this as well. Talk a little bit about that opportunity to have Marco over and, you know, speak to, you know, folks in the city. Is that something that happens frequently is that you get to visited by active transportation, Dutch royalty? 00:14:37:06 - 00:14:37:23 Sara Stace Exactly. 00:14:37:27 - 00:15:08:21 Sara Stace Actually, we do sometimes get Dutch or Danish royalty here, literally, because the Queen of Denmark is in fact our sorry, the Princess of Denmark. But we do occasionally. I think it's important to get international guests visiting wherever you are in the world, because they bring a different perspective. And often politicians or senior bureaucrats are more likely to listen to them and to get an audience with them than if they hear the same message from the locals. 00:15:08:28 - 00:15:34:15 Sara Stace So yes, Micah has been doing the rounds. Who's been in New Zealand and different cities around Australia, and getting in front of the public transport audiences as well as active transport audiences. So I think it's really important to get that exposure. And he talked about the hill of Hysteria. So it's this hill that you have to overcome where just before the decision gets made to proceed. 00:15:34:15 - 00:15:50:18 Sara Stace So all of the previous work has been done, you're just about to press go. And the hysteric hysteria is at its very highest, and that's when projects are most likely to be canned. And we see that over and over again. So it was a really interesting presentation that he gave. 00:15:50:21 - 00:15:52:29 John Simmerman Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:53:01 - 00:16:25:15 John Simmerman My sense is that there's a lot of parallels. He just mentioned that he was also in New Zealand, which makes perfect sense if you're going to travel all the way from the Central European area to, to Down Under that you hit Australia and New Zealand. I was just in New Zealand in March to attend the transportation conference there in Wellington, and spent several days filming and interviewing folks. 00:16:25:17 - 00:16:52:24 John Simmerman My impression, and some of the things that I kept hearing from some of the Kiwis that I was interviewing is that they were just kind of like a little bit flummoxed and a little bit frustrated by the fact that you're the reality, at least for New Zealand, was that they, you know, have one of the highest per capita car ownership rates and incredibly car dependent and yet an absolutely beautiful, beautiful country. 00:16:52:24 - 00:17:18:21 John Simmerman And you have such wonderful natural resources all over, but they really feel like they've gotten to the point where they're just so incredibly car dependent. You pretty much have to drive to get to anything. Or is there similarities with, with Australia? I mean, obviously it's a much, much bigger situation in terms of scale there. Is it similar in terms of the car dependency rates? 00:17:18:23 - 00:17:58:00 Sara Stace I would say it's probably similar. I don't know the exact statistics for the New Zealand cities, but what I would say is that, yes, as with many Anglosphere countries, we're very car dependent. And however, in

Australia a lot of our cities are quite compact in the inner centers. And so yes, Australia is absolutely vast in its area. But the city that we refer to as Greater Sydney, where I live, is about geographically about the same size as the Netherlands. 00:17:58:00 - 00:18:01:07 Sara Stace Ronstadt. I've probably completely butchered the pronunciation. 00:18:01:07 - 00:18:01:29 John Simmerman Of that, right? No. 00:18:02:05 - 00:18:27:19 Sara Stace That encompasses, yes, Utrecht and Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Delft and so on. And so we tend to think of our cities. I don't know whether the US probably does seem like LA is just huge. We don't think of them as all these separate cities. Whereas in someone like the Netherlands it's treated as separate cities with all of their own transportation and bike network systems within them. 00:18:27:23 - 00:18:57:13 Sara Stace And then you might catch a train between those cities, whereas the way we can see them somewhere like Greater Sydney or Melbourne, probably Auckland as well, is we think them as one enormous mega region and then wonder why the transportation system doesn't work, particularly for bikes. So I think it's even just the way we conceive of the planning for the city and the scale of it is that doesn't really make sense when you're trying to think about walking and cycling. 00:18:57:13 - 00:19:02:15 Sara Stace But if you instead conceived of it as a series of smaller cities, in fact it probably would stack up. 00:19:02:22 - 00:19:04:07 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:19:04:10 - 00:19:24:10 John Simmerman Now, this is a joyful photo right here, because I know you've got a very special guest, you know, or I should say, you have a very special, I don't want to call this a person. It's a very special family member on board. 00:19:24:12 - 00:19:47:16 Sara Stace That is my dog that is called Pia. She's my running companion. And, she also goes in. We call this the puppy pram. This is her special form of transport to get around. And in the background of my real children, the two young men off to one side. So this was for the opening ceremony of the Oxford Street cycleway. 00:19:47:17 - 00:19:59:03 Sara Stace And it's also the route that the annual Mardi Gras goes down. And so I was that's why I'm dressed up in my car really tell. But it's a rainbow sparkles jumpsuit. 00:19:59:05 - 00:19:59:13 John Simmerman 00:19:59:19 - 00:20:20:00 Sara Stace And the and a gold helmet to celebrate the occasion. But again, this is another project that took us many, many years to get constructed. And so it was a huge celebration where the Lord mayor and many others. And there again, that's another part of it. That's Campbell again with her dogs in the front of her cargo bike. 00:20:20:03 - 00:20:21:04 John Simmerman Yeah. 00:20:21:06 - 00:20:41:06 John Simmerman So let's talk a little bit about that. These projects that are literally taking decades to bring about, you and I talked about this in the first episode, is

that we don't have the luxury of just inching along slowly. We need to move and accelerate these things a lot more quickly. 00:20:41:09 - 00:21:00:19 Sara Stace Yeah, absolutely. And it takes guts and it takes resilience. Years and years of pressure. And a lot of people who work in this sort of space end up burning out. I've certainly had to take a step back in the last few months because after years of campaigning, I thought it was time for me to take a bit of a break and get refreshed. 00:21:00:19 - 00:21:02:21 Sara Stace And at some point I'll jump back in. 00:21:02:23 - 00:21:04:09 John Simmerman Yeah, well. 00:21:04:09 - 00:21:07:12 John Simmerman I'm glad you're at least having this conversation as part of your. 00:21:07:12 - 00:21:11:24 John Simmerman Your your your recovery. 00:21:11:27 - 00:21:12:07 John Simmerman 00:21:12:09 - 00:21:18:25 John Simmerman I do want to show a couple more new bits of infrastructure that you passed along. It looks like we have a new bridge here. 00:21:18:28 - 00:21:41:11 Sara Stace Yes. In Brisbane. So Brisbane doesn't have a harbor, but it does have a river that weaves in and around the city. And the Brisbane City Council has been building a lot of bridges. I think they've built three in the last few years. And so this is one of the more recent bridges that's just opened in the last, I think, 18 to 18 months or so. 00:21:41:13 - 00:21:48:15 Sara Stace And so I thought I'd include that to just show that it's not only Sydney that's getting the new infrastructure that's better for people walking and cycling. 00:21:48:19 - 00:21:51:24 John Simmerman Right, right. 00:21:51:27 - 00:22:16:24 Sara Stace And this is another cycleway that was took many years to build. This is the Castle Street cycleway. And whilst I'm mentioning all these separate cycleways, they do in fact all stitch up together. So now in the middle of the central business area of Sydney, you've got a whole network of interconnected cycleways now. So you can literally go east to west and north to south without having to leave a separated cycling infrastructure. 00:22:16:27 - 00:22:18:18 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:22:18:21 - 00:22:47:24 John Simmerman So when you look at the work that you've been doing over the decades, and we've just addressed the fact that many of these cycle network pieces have taken decades to get to fruition. To the point where you do feel like it sounds like you're pretty positive and pretty gung ho about the fact that the network is taking shape and is stitched together. 00:22:47:27 - 00:23:15:18 John Simmerman Are you starting to see the uptick and enthusiasm of all ages and all abilities, you know, saying, yeah, hey, in Sydney, in the greater Sydney area, it is possible to do this and people are doing it with, you know, their loved ones, their family, their, their puppy dogs. You know, you've got your kids here. You're gonna you're going to get jump on the bike and go places. 00:23:15:19 - 00:23:17:05 John Simmerman Is that starting to happen now? 00:23:17:12 - 00:23:37:24 Sara Stace To some extent. So all of the infrastructure I've shown you though, is in a very, very small core in a part of the city. It's not extending its way through those broader areas that I mentioned. And so that's a problem. But you have to start somewhere. And we also know that with cycling it has to be a network effect. 00:23:37:25 - 00:23:57:03 Sara Stace You can't just build a little scrap here and a little scrap there and hope that people will pick it up. And so we are building that network from the center out. But the other effect that we're seeing is the share bike phenomenon. I call it the Timothy Shalom effect, where Lime Bikes is is one of the more prominent ones. 00:23:57:03 - 00:24:25:07 Sara Stace There are obviously many share bike companies out there, but we I think it's that plus the oil crisis. I don't know about the United States, but certainly in most other parts of the world, and particularly in Asia and Oceania, our petrol prices have almost doubled. And so people are choosing not to drive anymore. And we have seen a huge boom in share bike usage in since basically January this year. 00:24:25:10 - 00:24:42:29 Sara Stace So the share bike companies have told us they've pretty much tripled in their ridership in the last in that time. And I think it's partly because we've had all this new infrastructure come on board. It's partly because it's kind of cool. That's what I call the committee effect, and partly because they don't want to have to drive. They can't afford to. 00:24:43:06 - 00:24:50:21 Sara Stace So I think it it as with everything, there's a system here. It's not just one component. It's many components coming together. 00:24:50:23 - 00:24:52:10 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:24:52:12 - 00:25:14:12 John Simmerman I want to pull up, the image that we used as our thumbnail for, our first episode and we were, you know, reflecting on the fact that I know this is one of your favorite photos, too. It's like this, this sense of just, hey, I'm relaxed, we're carefree. We're we're getting to where we need to go to. 00:25:14:13 - 00:25:33:05 John Simmerman As you know, young women here, and we talk about this, that this should be the new paradigm for our streets is that streets should not be a hostile environment. It should be a place where people feel comfortable getting around and getting to their meaningful destinations. 00:25:33:07 - 00:26:00:05 Sara Stace Yeah, that's right. And it is a paradigm. That's certainly what I talked about at length in that presentation three years ago. And since then I've been doing a lot of thinking about what does a paradigm shift take. So it's all very well saying it's not good enough now or you need to go and advocate, etc.. But I've been really digging down into what do we mean when we say you need a paradigm shift? 00:26:00:07 - 00:26:17:17 Sara Stace Not it. We listen to so many podcasts, we see

wonderful things or you hear all the problems. And I really wanted to dig much more into and that's what I've spent the last three years doing, is going on a bit of a journey about how do we do that, what's the systems change that is required to achieve that? 00:26:17:24 - 00:26:18:19 John Simmerman Yeah, and. 00:26:18:19 - 00:26:24:29 John Simmerman I'll pull up your website right here. And this is part of your new venture. Introduce us for us. 00:26:25:01 - 00:26:47:10 Sara Stace Yeah. So this is decision Tools. It's an experiment for me at the moment. I'm hoping it I'll continue to expand it. But essentially this is so many people contacting me saying they want to have some advice. Can you check my CV? I'm thinking of changing industries, I want to do a studies, etc. and I also get asked to do a lot of speaking on keynotes and so on. 00:26:47:10 - 00:26:53:12 Sara Stace And so I thought, I'll put together a website and look at where that takes me over time. 00:26:53:15 - 00:26:55:10 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah, fantastic. 00:26:55:10 - 00:27:14:09 John Simmerman And it's great to because it dives deeper into your background and your history and some of the great things that you have done over the years. Do you want. To peel back the onion a little bit and look at some of the, the, the things that you have in your presentation? 00:27:14:11 - 00:27:40:18 Sara Stace Yeah, I did share a presentation with you, which again it's work in progress. I've got a few workshops coming up, so I'm moving more from presenting as a 20 minute presentation with Q&A into how can I run workshops at conferences. So I thought I'd share a few slides from a workshop that I've been developing. I've done a first test run, and I've got another one coming up soon for an actual conference. 00:27:40:25 - 00:28:02:27 Sara Stace So last time we spoke, I talked about this framework of the hardware being the infrastructure that we build, the software being on strategies and guidelines and funding, and then the org where which is that political and community support. But what I've since realized it was missing a really fundamental component, which is why is known as the Overton window. 00:28:02:29 - 00:28:33:27 Sara Stace And the Overton window, which is on the next slide is where you're thinking about, what is currently policy or popular. It fits within the Overton window. So I've given some examples here. The idea that you retain all parking on streets, we don't necessarily need more new parking. That's slightly outside of the it's, you know, perhaps sensible or slightly reducing parking is sensible. 00:28:33:29 - 00:29:04:19 Sara Stace But to then the same with 50km an hour, which I believe is about 40 miles an hour. I conversion is not great. Fits within the Overton window. But then if you said, hey, we're going to remove all parking mandates or switch to 30km an hour or 20mph, that's it's in the unthinkable component. And so when we're working in advocacy and we're wanting to get major change, in fact, we're trying to shift policy outside of the Overton window. 00:29:04:19 - 00:29:26:21 Sara Stace And that's the hard part. So if you move to the next slide, you can see that. I then thought that diagram that I presented last time was limited because in fact, we're trying to move that whole Venn diagram off to one side to a different Overton window. We're trying to shift the overs and window, and that's why it feels just so damn hard to achieve that. 00:29:26:28 - 00:29:27:21 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:29:27:22 - 00:29:54:23 Sara Stace So this is a work in progress where I've developed this framework and I'm still working on it. So if your viewers have any suggestions to how to shape it, I'd most appreciate it. But essentially I've looked at these entrenched eight systems that I come across over and over again in my work and in my advocacy. And it's basically saying that our land use systems are particularly in the Anglosphere. 00:29:54:23 - 00:30:15:06 Sara Stace We tend to want to expand. If you need more housing, we'll just build on more and more and more land. I'm sure you would have seen that in Houston is a particularly strong example of that. But right throughout North America and Australia and New Zealand, we tend to think we've got so much land. We'll just keep expanding the city boundaries. 00:30:15:09 - 00:30:39:27 Sara Stace And the problem with that is it's then creating travel demand in a very jargon fashion, where in order to get from your home to the shops or to a job or to school, you're creating this need to travel. And the most natural thing is to drive. Which leads us to the second component, which is transport, is expected to solve that problem that was created by land use. 00:30:39:29 - 00:31:05:10 Sara Stace And so everything after that is trying to catch up with the fact that people need to move. And so then we get this sort of bias through our incentives and institutional practices and so on that essentially are about, well, car travel and speed and large vehicles are all what we need to enable. And walking in cycling is nice, but kind of trivial to that. 00:31:05:12 - 00:31:28:16 Sara Stace And then I look at some other components, like I've said, opposition politics. That's basically where your politicians and the assume that the community hates the idea. And you will get that. As I mentioned, Marco to Brahmastra, it's presentation about the Hill of Hysteria or Janette said it. Khan talked about street fight. It's where you get fake news or you get people really angry, almost pull a pitchforks out. 00:31:28:23 - 00:31:49:09 Sara Stace And so politicians don't want to end up in that situation with their community. And so they either don't get involved at all or they retract at the last minute. And I can keep going around the circle. But you get the idea. I'm trying to find ways where if you can not just look at the initial, what do I see happening in this situation?

00:31:49:09 - 00:32:17:01 Sara Stace Like my community doesn't want to be a parking space, but to actually then think, well, what is the underlying system that's causing that in the first place? So you're moving away from blaming the individual or the individual circumstance into thinking more about what is the system and all of the supporting systems that are causing the system. This problem to occur because it's only then that you can really start to tackle that at a more in depth and address that. 00:32:17:03 - 00:32:17:25 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:32:18:03 - 00:32:53:04 John Simmerman And you know it, it's it's obvious, you know, when you when you look at the, the starting point there with land use, I mean that's what's causing the cascade because it goes from there in that sense. And in fact, that's kind of the, the example that you go through here is you take a look at land use and you look at the land use systems, and then you start to see how that decision, that land use pattern that's been adopted, sort of dictates the challenges that then flow through throughout one's life. 00:32:53:09 - 00:33:15:29 Sara Stace Yeah. That's right. And so this one here is looking at two different people. So it basically says one is Alicia and she lives in the outer suburbs in an area that's got housing that's very separated from any reasonable transport options. And she can't access her daily needs without a car. So she's going to spend her childhood being dependent on mum and dad to drive her around. 00:33:16:05 - 00:33:42:04 Sara Stace Then when she becomes driving age and then and has kids of her own, she's driving them around and then towards the end of her life, she might get glaucoma or Parkinson's or something like that, and she can no longer drive. And so she's dependent on others again. And so her whole life is locked into this car dependency. And then I compare that with Zahra, who lives in a townhouse and has a lifetime range of options from walking and cycling and public transport. 00:33:42:06 - 00:34:07:01 Sara Stace And so from quite young, she can be fairly independent and even into her old age when she can't isn't of driving age. She has many options, and I wanted to highlight the fact that in Australia, 40% of our population does not have a driver's license, and that's because there are the two young or two old, or they can't afford to, or they're living with a disability. 00:34:07:07 - 00:34:39:21 Sara Stace And so we haven't designed our transport systems around that, those people who need that access. And then this diagram here tries to show that how land use and transport intertwines. So you start with this issue of we need more housing. And that's a very hot topic in many countries at the moment that it's unaffordable. So the solution in Australia and many other countries is let's just go and build somewhere in the outer areas because it's cheap to build, and that then embeds that car travel that we I mentioned. 00:34:39:23 - 00:35:10:05 Sara Stace Then you need to expand the roads that are existing and then you don't have any money for active and public transport. And so you can't avoid that need to travel or build roads. We just keep spending billions and billions on road infrastructure. And on the next slide I say, well, what if instead of doing that expansion, you still build new housing, but you build it into the well serviced areas that do have good public and active transport, and that might be through infill or transit oriented development. 00:35:10:07 - 00:35:32:01 Sara Stace And then that kind of creates this virtuous circle where you can invest that into public and active transport, and there's less demand for expanding roads. So it does start with the land use. And because I'm an architect by training and I work with a lot of planners, I really wanted to illustrate how it is that land use and transport are completely intertwined. 00:35:32:01 - 00:35:34:19 Sara Stace You can't have one without the other. 00:35:34:22 - 00:35:36:13 John Simmerman Yeah. 00:35:36:16 - 00:35:41:16 John Simmerman Do you think that message is getting through? 00:35:41:18 - 00:36:10:12 Sara Stace I think it's understood, but it's inconvenient. So, you know, and we'll come up with lots of ways of saying yes, but people want the space. They want a big block for their children to play or to fit their multiple motor vehicles. And I think ultimately, it's actually not that many people who want it or they'd be okay with a full backyard if it then meant that they have access to shops and so on. 00:36:10:12 - 00:36:31:13 Sara Stace And it was affordable. But we're kind of not really creating that, that situation. And people often think of density as high rise, where you might not even have a balcony. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about where you might have townhouses. So some of my other research shows that the in effect, Jane Jacobs said this as well. 00:36:31:13 - 00:37:00:09 Sara Stace But to get more people walking you basically need medium density housing. So not big houses on big Lots. But if you get about 70% of your housing into the sort of townhouse development or walk up flats, semi-detached, which is where you might have two houses sharing a common wall, etc., you're walking significantly increases. And so that's the type of development I'm talking about rather than necessarily high rise. 00:37:00:11 - 00:37:01:22 John Simmerman Right, right. Yeah. 00:37:01:24 - 00:37:29:24 John Simmerman For sure. And you know, when you think about this challenge of the entire intertwined nature of land use and transport and we and really, I think the key thing here is the point number two is, you know, build that housing in well-served areas. And one of the things that I keep harping on is that what we're talking about here is not a war on cars. 00:37:29:27 - 00:37:58:01 John Simmerman You know, what we're talking about here is to try to create more

mobility choices, more independence of movement and mobility. And so when we look at our transport systems, if really the only option that is viable, that's really being promoted and funded, you know, at the, you know, the national, state, local government levels is drive everywhere for everything in a single occupancy vehicle. 00:37:58:04 - 00:38:24:24 John Simmerman You're leaving a lot of people behind. Like you said, you know, 40% of the population is non drivers. And that's the numbers that we see here in the United States as well. And so that's. I think really hard for some people to understand because of this concept. You know, the car brain thinking motor normativity, the Ian Walker coined the term. 00:38:24:24 - 00:38:55:28 John Simmerman And of course he and Marco were on my podcast to talk about a normativity and some of the joint projects that they're working on. And it's, it's baffling to to some people when they think, well, of course we're going to drive, we always drive. And but that's not necessarily the case. And so when you're going through this and you're having these conversations with folks and given your background in architecture and planning, do. 00:38:55:28 - 00:38:56:16 John Simmerman You. 00:38:56:18 - 00:39:13:29 John Simmerman Think that that's landing de people? Are you saying that they get the fact that there's an inner twined nature of land use and transport? Do you think that they're also getting that this is part of the problem is that we just automatically assume that everyone's going to drive. 00:39:14:01 - 00:39:36:01 Sara Stace We definitely assume that everyone's going to drive. And in fact, is that a a public town meeting the other day and there was a crowd of about 200 people who were very much against this proposal, and I was there to present as a community member for the proposal. And I mentioned that that fact about the 40% of people who don't drive. 00:39:36:04 - 00:39:54:11 Sara Stace And one of the municipal councilors said to me, oh, does that include children? And I said, yes. And the audience laughed. And I thought, you know, how unfair for kids that it's just irrelevant. In fact, it's funny that they don't drive. 00:39:54:13 - 00:40:26:17 Sara Stace Yeah. I mean, and, you know, we want our kids to be autonomous. I want my children to be able to get to their friends houses without me having to drive them. Why should they ask me? They should be able to catch the bus or ride a bike or walk if they want to get to school, or go to the gym, or see their friends or take the dog, why should they have to ask or beg their parent to put down the computer, or put down the pan, or whatever it is you're doing and go and take them somewhere, is grossly unfair on both the parent and the child. 00:40:26:19 - 00:40:48:11 Sara Stace And the same as we move into older age as well, where, you know, imagine that point where you're at the doctor and the doctor says, I'm really sorry, but John, you your isolates gone really poor. I'm really concerned that you're going to have a car crash. I can't let you renew your driver's license. Imagine being in that meeting. 00:40:48:11 - 00:41:09:15 Sara Stace Where or that appointment where this happens. You are devastated because your entire social network is dependent on this. Just being able to survive and go to the shops or whatever it takes is being taken away from you. And so I totally get it that that's grossly unfair, but that's the way we've built our cities and that's the way we've built our social expectation. 00:41:09:16 - 00:41:15:22 Sara Stace And I guess that's where the Motor Normativity comes into. It's just baked into everything that we do. 00:41:15:24 - 00:41:18:23 John Simmerman Are we? 00:41:18:25 - 00:41:45:13 John Simmerman Just not getting it? Are we in our own little bubble and we don't understand that, you know, maybe these parents don't want their kids to have that level of independence. And, and yeah, they're, they're non drivers and that's the way we want it because we want to shuttle them everywhere. I mean, I don't think that's the case, but I mean, I'm not a parent. 00:41:45:13 - 00:41:47:10 John Simmerman You are. 00:41:47:12 - 00:42:09:00 Sara Stace I wonder whether for some parents I have heard people saying, but that's the time that I get to spend with my kid. And we have conversations and that is our social connection. And I get that, you know, that's you spend an hour in the day and that's the time you get with your kid. I totally understand why. If you said, well, you no longer get that sort of thing, well, what else is there to replace it? 00:42:09:03 - 00:42:12:00 Sara Stace Well, maybe you could just go for a bike ride together or go for. 00:42:12:00 - 00:42:14:06 John Simmerman A walk when. 00:42:14:06 - 00:42:19:13 John Simmerman They're little. They could. They could share space with the puppy dog. 00:42:19:16 - 00:42:19:28 John Simmerman Yeah. 00:42:19:29 - 00:42:20:27 John Simmerman No. 00:42:20:29 - 00:42:21:18 John Simmerman I was. 00:42:21:21 - 00:42:57:07 John Simmerman Being a little. Officious with that in terms of just. It is kind of mind boggling that we're having such difficulty with, you know, this issue of, of like, really know you. We do want to, to have independent kids that are able to, to grow and mature and have a certain level of self-efficacy and self-confidence and feel like they can make it to the next stage, in the next stage and next stage. 00:42:57:09 - 00:43:27:01 John Simmerman And Lenore and I, you know, talked about the grow organization that, you know, she and Jonathan Wright and Peter Gray, helped form and, you know, doing what we can to, you know, make. It legal again, you know, especially in the United States, make it legal again for parents to be able to let their kids get out and, and Rome and be able to, to, to play by themselves, because it has gone way overboard. 00:43:27:01 - 00:43:46:10 Sara Stace Exactly,

exactly. And as they reach adolescence as well. So my, my two kids are now teenagers, and my 16 year old was approaching his or he was just about to turn 16 and he was saying, the day I turned 16, I'm going to race out to the and get my learner's permit so I can start to learn to drive. 00:43:46:10 - 00:44:12:00 Sara Stace That's the age in New South Wales that you can get that. And I was like, okay, that's fine, but we don't really drive much, so it's not going to get much chance to practice. But instead I got him a bike. Now he already had an e-bike, but I went and got him the fat bike because they're cool. And in here you're not legally allowed to ride them on the roadway, but we got one that is compliant, but it can be over overridden. 00:44:12:06 - 00:44:35:18 Sara Stace But at least we got one. That is, it is actually compliant because we wanted one that on outward appearances looks cool for his friends but also is compliant. And then, he loves it. He goes absolutely everywhere on it every single day. And actually, funnily enough, when Marco was visiting, we provided his family with bikes so they could travel around Sydney. 00:44:35:21 - 00:44:54:15 Sara Stace While they were here. And I said to my son. Oh, can we take your bike? It's just for a few days. And he was horrified. He was like, you cannot take my bike. This is my life. How dare you? I kind of said it as a joke. I figured that would be the response, but I thought, gosh, isn't that fascinating. 00:44:54:16 - 00:44:57:29 Sara Stace He has become so dependent on this form of transport that. 00:44:58:04 - 00:44:58:27 John Simmerman It's mobility. 00:44:58:28 - 00:45:00:04 Sara Stace It's a way. 00:45:00:06 - 00:45:00:23 John Simmerman Yeah. 00:45:01:00 - 00:45:10:10 Sara Stace Well his independence, he was like, I don't want to get back on the bus again. It takes far too long. And that's the kind of response we want. 00:45:10:12 - 00:45:17:23 John Simmerman It sounds like a lot of what we need to do is to reframe the idea, walk us through this. 00:45:17:25 - 00:45:47:11 Sara Stace So I got on to reading this book by Katherine Hayhoe. And it's actually about climate change, but it really, really applies to active transport, because what she says is that when you're going to talk to a community about something that, as I said, that that Overton window, I don't think she uses the frame Overton window. But when you're talking about something that sits outside of their current realm of understanding or interests, you don't convince them by going to talk about what you care about. 00:45:47:13 - 00:46:08:16 Sara Stace You go and talk to them about what they care about. And she gives some really great examples. She talks about going to church groups or she talks about in one instance, she's talking to a group of people who do scuba diving. And so you frame your the way you propose the problem to them or the issue. How is it going to affect them? 00:46:08:16 - 00:46:39:19 Sara Stace What's in it for me? So before she goes into any audience, she really thinks carefully about what matters to the audience that I'm connecting with. And how do I really get down into something that they deeply, deeply care about? And so an example would be instead of saying, we need to have reduced street speeds here, you might say, your kids walk to school, and I really want to make sure that they're going to be safe as they walk to school or they have a dog. 00:46:39:21 - 00:46:59:18 Sara Stace You know, we don't want your dog to get hit by a car in this street. And there's been several dogs killed on the street or something like that. So you're really trying to connect with what they deeply care about rather than what you deeply care about? Yes. And that's exactly what that's saying, is you, you resonate with the audience rather than them trying to understand your perspective. 00:46:59:19 - 00:47:07:21 Sara Stace And I think that that's, it's actually surprisingly hard to do that, but that's the way to get the cut through. 00:47:07:23 - 00:47:08:25 John Simmerman Isn't that funny, though? 00:47:08:27 - 00:47:09:04 John Simmerman It's. 00:47:09:05 - 00:47:22:06 John Simmerman Like, surprisingly hard to do it. But as you're saying it, it's like, well, of course that's what we need to do. It's like obvious, right? 00:47:22:09 - 00:47:45:12 Sara Stace So yeah, why don't you give this story of grace? This is great. She's on an electric tricycle, and you can just see on the very front there, it's got a picture of a wheelchair, and she struggles to walk. So she has a mobility issues, but on her electrical tricycle, she can go everywhere. So she goes to church, she goes shopping, she goes to the local cafes. 00:47:45:12 - 00:48:09:28 Sara Stace You can see here she's in a very busy pedestrian mall. And I was talking to Grace and I asked her if I could take her photo, and then I had to go and talk to, a senior bureaucrat, Lucy. And as I was talking about, I was basically working on cycling infrastructure project, and I could see Lucy's eyes were glazing over. 00:48:09:29 - 00:48:33:29 Sara Stace She was like, yeah, this is all very interesting. But then I showed the photo of Grace and I explained Grace's story, and I said, we're building this cycling network for Grace. And Lucy. Suddenly it was like the penny. She said, oh, I get it. We're building this for someone who needs it, who just needs to get to the local shops and get to church and get to the cafe. 00:48:34:01 - 00:48:59:10 Sara Stace And if if Grace tries to walk, she's painfully, painfully slow so she can't walk to the bus stop. And it's too expensive for her to catch taxis and Ubers everywhere. But the bike is her freedom. And so it really highlighted to me how important it is to come to that person and give them this storytelling from the perspective of someone who embodies what matters to them, right? 00:48:59:11 - 00:49:20:16 John Simmerman Yeah. And how beautiful. What a

great story too, because the biggest challenge that we have when we look at creating these networks of all ages and all abilities, infrastructure, it can sometimes just get, you know, brushed aside and say, oh, you're just doing this for the cyclists. It's like, no. 00:49:20:16 - 00:49:21:10 John Simmerman No, no, no, no. 00:49:21:17 - 00:49:42:07 John Simmerman We're not just doing it for the cyclists. Cyclists don't need this. They can do whatever they're probably, you know, bold and and you know, and they can control the lane. You know, it's, you know, it's the triathletes, it's the, the, the road racers. I mean, no, that's not who we're doing this for. We're doing this for all ages, all abilities. 00:49:42:15 - 00:50:14:07 John Simmerman It's the graces in the of the world. And so when Lucy can kind of see that, then that starts to, to open things up because we, we have, you know, I'm glad you had this the, this particular graph here that, you know, kind of looks to this concept of appealing to the majority, where, you know, you've got your passionate advocates on one side and you've got your haters on the far other side, and then somewhere in between is is like either slightly interested or the oblivious, etc.. 00:50:14:10 - 00:50:17:18 John Simmerman Where would you have put Lucy? 00:50:17:21 - 00:50:21:18 Sara Stace I think Lucy probably sits in the neutral to oblivious, you know. 00:50:21:19 - 00:50:22:06 John Simmerman And. 00:50:22:09 - 00:50:23:18 John Simmerman Then the. 00:50:23:21 - 00:50:54:22 Sara Stace She's not anti. Yeah, exactly. But she's a decision maker. And What so this comes from it's my visual interpretation of Greg Settle the book called Cascades. How to I can't quite read that here. How to create a movement that drives transformational change. Again, another book that isn't talking about active transport at all. But what I liked in his description is he said, you'll get all these passionate advocates, which, you know, which you and I and probably a lot of your listeners sit in that. 00:50:54:25 - 00:51:20:23 Sara Stace And then if if you're trying to reach a politician, they don't want to hear from the passionate advocates. I can jump up and down all I like, like that little diagram there. I'm not going to be heard because I don't represent the majority of people. And so what I need to do is, is, reach out, find ways to reach across the chasm through that storytelling, through ways that people relate to. 00:51:20:25 - 00:51:47:06 Sara Stace And ideally, it's so that, you get to the ordinary person. And if you're a politician. The reason why I think parking outside the shops is such a touch point, like everyone knows that it's the business owners hate getting rid of parking outside their shot for the cycleway. I think it's partly because the shop owner represents the everyday person in my electorate. 00:51:47:09 - 00:52:19:06 Sara Stace The types of people who are going to vote for me at the next elections, and so they need to hear that or hear from someone who represents the slightly interested, or preferably the neutral to oblivious, because then they're more likely to win the issue if they go and build a cycleway, or they put in the wider footpath, or they make that change to the street, that they're going to be supported, and they're not going to have all the haters jumping up and down their throat and have the street fight. 00:52:19:09 - 00:52:34:06 Sara Stace And so, yeah, I guess that's what I'm trying to say is we need to do that, reach across the chasm to get past that tipping point of people feeling like they're no longer just slightly interested or oblivious to something they actually care about, and they're willing to stand up for. 00:52:34:09 - 00:53:10:28 John Simmerman Yeah. And I think how we're framing things, because if we're if we're framing things in a way that just like suddenly illuminates this to being obvious to the Lucy's, it's like, oh, that's what you mean. Oh, I get it now. This is for all ages and all abilities. This is empowering. This is mobility, independence and freedom that, you know, makes all the difference in the world when you're, you know, trying to, I think, get that green light, trying to get that a okay from from that decision maker and that politician. 00:53:11:00 - 00:53:17:10 John Simmerman We know that the haters are going to scream bloody murder because that's what they do. And we know the passionate advocates are going to be like. 00:53:17:10 - 00:53:18:12 John Simmerman Go, go, go go. 00:53:18:12 - 00:53:29:28 John Simmerman Go faster, faster, faster, more and more and more. But again, the vast majority of people are just trying to live their lives and they're not thinking about this the way we are. 00:53:30:00 - 00:53:51:03 Sara Stace That's exactly right. Yeah. And also, you just used that word all ages and abilities. And I will always write that sort of phrasing into policy that I write. But if I'm going to go talk to Lucy and say the word all ages and abilities, it has almost no meaning. It does have meaning. When I put Grace and Grace's photo in her story. 00:53:51:05 - 00:54:02:22 Sara Stace So I think a big part of it is when we're doing that storytelling, we need to present it through the eyes and experience of a real person whose real mobility is affected. 00:54:02:24 - 00:54:52:04 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. And I think it's also important. This next slide that you have is really, you know, creating coalitions around a vision. This is incredibly important as well, is that it has to be a broad based coalition. I had this discussion with Karen Ormond with Bike Auckland, and we were talking about the fact that the most effective way that Bike Auckland can advocate for more cycling infrastructure and more all ages and abilities approach to that infrastructure in Auckland is to be a part of a coalition that's broad based, that, you know, is organizing with organizations that have

absolutely nothing to do with cycling, but they have to do with livability and creating a higher quality 00:54:52:04 - 00:54:54:03 John Simmerman of life within the in the city. 00:54:54:05 - 00:55:21:21 Sara Stace Yeah, absolutely. And I think that realization for me has again, taken many years. I used to be on the board of a cycling organization in New South Wales, and they used to be mostly focused on arguing with a similar cycling organization on the other side of the state border. And I don't know if you've seen the Monty Python sketch with the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of GDR, it's exactly that. 00:55:21:24 - 00:55:44:24 Sara Stace And they agree on 99% of the things, but they pick the 1% that they don't agree on, and that is how you divide and conquer. So instead, that was one of the reasons why, with a few others, we co-founded Better Streets, which is a national charity, and the purpose behind that is to bring all these organizations together. So we're not replacing them. 00:55:44:24 - 00:56:10:25 Sara Stace We're just saying, let's get together with parents for the climate. Or in the UK it might be mums for lungs, or let's get together with the School Teachers Association or people who care about their local street, etc. so bring them together and then give them a reason to unite around an idea. And so yeah, this is one of the videos we created. 00:56:10:28 - 00:56:36:13 Sara Stace And so we've got these five key aims. And the key aims are firstly that we want to support local businesses with things like outdoor dining and exactly the sort of things that you see here. And with street beautification, we want people to be able to cross the street easily with more crossings. We want to get more school kids, to be able to walk to school independently, walk and ride and catch public transport. 00:56:36:16 - 00:57:04:22 Sara Stace We want to have, slower street speeds so that you're less likely to be hit by a car. And then fifth, we want to have more cycleways. So there are five key asks, and any organization that supports that, or any individual can just sign up for free and be a coalition partner or an independent member. And so that's the idea behind that is to say, we all have the same overall vision or recommendations and you keep your organization. 00:57:04:22 - 00:57:19:12 Sara Stace We're not replacing you. Just come and join our voice. Let's amplify our voices together. And so we're now a national charity with tax deductibility status and have over 120 organizations as part of our coalition. 00:57:19:15 - 00:57:56:04 John Simmerman Yeah. No that's brilliant. And that's exactly what I advise, you know, folks, to do is try to break out of being a single subject only advocacy organization, or if you are going to do that and you're going to stick to that, that's great. Please align yourself through a coalition with other, you know, organizations and entities that are striving to try to make the city or the region or the state or whatever your, your your geographic area is a better place for everyone, all ages and all abilities. 00:57:56:06 - 00:57:57:29 John Simmerman Yeah, absolutely. 00:57:57:29 - 00:58:19:16 Sara Stace And I think a few components of that. One is that when you're trying to sell a cycle way to a city, to a community, it is important that you don't sell it as a cycle way because all they think of is cyclists. In fact, if you can frame that as it's a streetscape upgrade, so it benefits everyone walking and your shop owners and so on. 00:58:19:16 - 00:58:28:03 Sara Stace So it's creating a much more, I guess, a Complete Streets approach to the way you're framing that, because you are going to improve the street for everybody. 00:58:28:05 - 00:58:42:03 John Simmerman Yeah. And and going back to what we learned from earlier in terms of, you know, when we try to reframe the idea again, going back to this touchstone. 00:58:42:05 - 00:58:56:24 Sara Stace Yeah, that's right. If they're not a bike rider, they're not going to be interested that there is nothing in it for them if you only sell it as a cycle way. They said, well, I don't ride a bike. In fact, I don't know anyone who rides a bike that isn't in Lycra. And so why do I want this? 00:58:57:00 - 00:58:58:09 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. 00:58:58:11 - 00:59:07:15 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. Sara, this has been so much fun. Is there anything that we haven't mentioned that you want to make sure to share with the audience. 00:59:07:17 - 00:59:43:06 Sara Stace Are I'm a co-host of a podcast called The Squeaky Wheel, and we run a monthly podcast that gets broadcast. We do have Marco to Bomber Stretch coming up soon as one of our one of our interviewees. So yes, jump in and have a listen to that. And then also for anyone who does work in the advocacy space and you want to have a personalized session with me about what it takes, you can always book me online on my website that you showed earlier. 00:59:43:07 - 00:59:54:05 Sara Stace Yep, I've got Book of Chat and so you can book a time to have a chat with me, whatever that is. And there are different kinds of see, just pick a time and off we go. 00:59:54:07 - 01:00:01:18 John Simmerman Fantastic. And we'll include all of those links in the show notes. Sarah, thank you so much. This has been an absolute joy and pleasure. 01:00:01:22 - 01:00:03:07 Sara Stace Thank you for having me on again. 01:00:03:10 - 01:00:19:06 John Simmerman Thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Sarah. Stay sane. If you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and be sure to ring that notifications bell. 01:00:19:11 - 01:00:37:06 John Simmerman And once again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my words by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. Hey, super easy to do right here on YouTube. You can just click on the join button down below. You can also leave a YouTube super thanks for this episode or navigate over to Active Towns Dog. 01:00:37:09 - 01:00:59:04 John Simmerman Click on the sport tab on the top of the page, and there's several different options, including making a donation to my nonprofit advocates for Healthy Communities. Or you can become a Patreon supporter. 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