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David Bancroft: Hello and welcome to another episode of A Quick Brew. And it's another guest one and one I'm really excited about actually. This is someone that I've known for many, years. Probably haven't spoken to for a year or so, but this could be a good one. So without further ado, I'd love to welcome to center stage our guest for today, Nick Looby. You're very comfortable with the applause, Nick.
Nick Looby: it it sounds r it sounds what a dreadful way to start a podcast. It's not the first time I've heard applause,
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: but only because I speak on stage or used to speak on stage a lot. But that that's that sounds awful, doesn't it? Who's this bloke that that is that's that's absolutely loving the applause, yeah.
David Bancroft: You do. Yeah. No, I love that. I love it. Yeah, yeah. Some people are very uncomfortable with the applause. Other people have asked that maybe we could can it and it just follows them around with their everyday sort of life. Just press the button and yes, thank you, thank you. But no, you looked very comfortable there, which is great. But Nick, without further ado, if I can just ask you, customary intro so we can orientate our audience and listeners. If you can just please introduce who you are, what you do, and how you make your clients' lives better.
Nick Looby: Thank you very much, David. It's a great way to start. thanks for inviting me on to the Quick Brew podcast.
David Bancroft: My pleasure.
Nick Looby: very important podcast by the sound of it. yes, I'm I'm Nick Luby, I'm a communication specialist, but a human-centric communication specialist. which always sounds a bit strange when I explain what it is that I do. I help ultimately, I help individuals, teams, organisation communicate with one another. inside and outside the work, more like humans, in a time where there are so many alternatives to communicate in other ways. A lot of organizations will find, and anyone sitting there will know this is true, that when it really counts, when it really counts, you need to do something a little bit more than let the technology do the heavy lifting. So if you're gonna do it differently, people want to do it differently really, really well. And that's when
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: I come in. And this is flexing the human centric tools and strategies that we've kind of evolved to be really good at, but kind of forgot along the way.
David Bancroft: I love that Nick. And actually I've always been really interested by your work. And obviously I was introduced to you via my network and we have a very mutual contact in common, which is David Bell. He was on a, I think our Christmas episode. And today actually this marks another celebration. And actually literally just before recording this realized that this episode will be released on 30th September, which marks two. significant milestones for a quick brew. The first being, it's exactly one year of podcasting. So 30th September, 2025, our first pod dropped, it was actually a double episode. And the second milestone, and it's something that should be celebrated, I think, is that it will also be International Podcast Day. So it seems great that on such a day we have you speaking about communication, because that's what it's all about, isn't it?
Nick Looby: And and this this a lot of people talk at they they told Nick, Nick, you're anti technology, you're a Luddite. and at and I'm at pains to explain it's not it's not anti technology. I'm just pro human. Right. So if there's
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: if there's tech tools out there that enhance how we communicate with one another, brilliant.
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: Right? Use those tools for sure. Podcasts being
David Bancroft: Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: one of them. I imagine
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: imagine a year's worth of podcasts, the amount of information, the amount of the the the stuff people have learned from
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: a a year of the quick brew, which is great, great tools. and I'm a massive fan of the right tools f at the right time.
David Bancroft: Yeah, I appreciate that. And actually, Nick, what a great t-shirt that would be. I'm not anti-tech, I'm pro-human.
Nick Looby: Yeah. Yeah, I should wear that on stage, shouldn't I?
David Bancroft: Let's get them made up. Let's get them made up. Absolutely. So talking about these stages, because obviously I've been aware of you speaking at various events. You do all sorts of training. I've also been aware, I think, that you've spoken on TEDx stage as well. So where did this... Where did this begin? Because again, for most people, they see a stage, they run a mile, they don't want to be anywhere near it, let alone on it front and center with the sort of light glaring. But how did your love for sort of, you know, being on the stage begin, Nick?
Nick Looby: Really really good, really good question. I have to cast my mind back. because you're absolutely right. It fills a lot of people with with fear, massive fear, for all the right reasons, right? It's scary, scary stuff, right? Your ego's out
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: there, and if you don't do it very well, you're in trouble, right? Because it's a a massive opportunity, but a massive risk as well. And I
David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah.
Nick Looby: think as as a trainer. You know, you kind get used to working in front of audiences and giving of yourself.
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: and then if you if you want to ramp that up, then there are bigger opportunities if you're prepared to step onto stage and have actually got something to say that people want to
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: listen to, that people need to listen to. And that way you can it you know, it's a bit like training, but the st the the audiences are bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. and
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: and you get to make more of an impact. So a thousand
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: people in
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the audience for 45 minutes of really well crafted messaging
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: is is ridiculously powerful. and I I
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: I I I was always kind of I was never really extroverted growing up. I
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: was far more introverted, even now, more introverted than extroverted. so
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: it's referred to as an ambivert, right? So you you I I would lend myself
David Bancroft: Nick, sorry. That's a great, that is a great word. Sorry. I don't know if you've seen, but we have word of the day. Ambervert becomes word of the day instantly. There's no way we're not making Ambervert word of the day. Sorry. As you were.
Nick Looby: absolutely fine. it and you'll know you'll know you're you're doing this ambivert thing when yeah, you c you can really push yourself and be extroverted on stage. You you got no choice really. but you
David Bancroft: Mmm, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: got it really burns energy. I i it it's exhausting. bec
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: especially if you're more kind of introverted. But we c we can do it. Okay, we can do it. and I d I just I just loved it.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm.
Nick Looby: it's despite it being scary, and and still you can feel the adrenaline, you know, oozing
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: through every pore when you're
David Bancroft: You
Nick Looby: on stage. I I just like to do things slightly differently. So I'm I'm I'm I'm
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: I'm a quirky fella. So if you've ever
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: seen me on stage, it's it's not like, wow, this guy's just talking through a PowerPoint. It's actually
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: this this this is a message that ideally just is coming alive. And I I
David Bancroft: Yeah,
Nick Looby: just loved it. I absolutely love the opportunity to help and change people's lives from from that position.
David Bancroft: yeah, And isn't it nice when you cross over from that anxiety and fear of speaking to the excitement and adrenaline of building up to... the event because I too have been there myself and I was never raised on public speaking specifically. And I've mentioned on the pod before my daughter from a very young age was, so the school where she was were big advocates for public speaking and human connection engagement. And obviously that's all speaking very much to your, you know, agenda there. But yeah, she would happily stand on a stage in front of one person. 10, 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, and it would be the same process. She's comfortable in whatever environment. And in fact, throughout her life, she's had opportunities to stand on stages and she's 15 now and meet with people. She met a sitting prime minister and everybody through the process has always said, you are so comfortable. It's so unusual to see someone that's this. happy to speak in front of people, but it's cultural, it was in the way she was raised, I didn't have it, and getting back to my point, yeah, I would have been very anxious in the past or nervous, but now I've managed to cross over slightly whereby the nerves you feel are actually positive nerves, if that makes sense.
Nick Looby: Yeah, it it it makes perfect sense and applaud the the upbringing and the schooling that your daughters had. I never had that. Very shy. Very shy
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: growing up. just chose chose a career that didn't really lend itself to to being shy. Hi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might be shy, Nick, but you get up on that stage and and and change a few lives along the way. I so there's
David Bancroft: Exactly that. Yeah.
Nick Looby: there is obviously a craft to it. I've spent a long time
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: learning that craft.
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: see I see speakers get up there and wonder why they've had the opportunity to get on stage because it's it's crap. You know, they're just
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: just just trolling through content that everyone's heard before in ways that everyone's you know, that everyone's experienced. And i if
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: if you really if you're really serious about it, man, that the the work that needs to go in to what is it I've got to say? How can
David Bancroft: Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: I say it in a way that massively resonates.
David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah.
Nick Looby: with this particular audience. And all of those all of those things take a lot of thought. You know, a
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: lot of people say, I've got I've got stuff to say and here it is without really
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: considering, well, no, who who are your audience? What what's going on with them? And how
David Bancroft: Mm-mm. Yes.
Nick Looby: are you going to craft this stuff that you've got? So it massively resonates.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've sat in bids and tenders and presentations and again, respectfully, sometimes people have literally read verbatim word for word, what's on their PowerPoint, at which point you would have to question, well, is there any value in them being there? And might I not just have read that in my own time at some point? you know, personally, when I structure something and I'm not necessarily speaking about a seminar, but more so a presentation, perhaps a bid or tender. I like to have bullet points, so jumping off points or milestones that I know I have to hit through the conversation. But I like to think I'm comfortable enough with the topic that I can find my way from point to point to point and make it a slightly more engaging process.
Nick Looby: And it comes with practice, right? I I used
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: to I used to work off cue cards and little little little
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: set of cards with with notes and in the earlier days those notes would be extensive. You know, there'd be loads written down on those
things and I I'd very, very rarely refer to them because you know if you you you should know your content.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: and I'd I'd I'd a bit vain, right? I'd when I couldn't really wear contact lenses. enough. I don't
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: really want to wear glasses on stage back then when I was a younger man. I so
David Bancroft: Yes
Nick Looby: I I I j I stopped using the the note cards and trusted
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: myself that I know my content, I know how to tell a story, I I
David Bancroft: Yeah,
Nick Looby: I know how to engage an audience. And if push comes
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: to shove, if you've ever seen my my first TEDx talk, I just play catch with the entire audience. You know this will get a point across.
David Bancroft: have, I have, and actually we'll link it. We'll link it in the show notes if you don't mind Nick, because I think that would be,
Nick Looby: Okay, it's kind.
David Bancroft: yeah, I think that would be great. seen it on YouTube actually, not having been there in person, but I've seen it on YouTube. no, awesome. So, so what makes a good and engaging talk? Is it that interactive piece? Is it scenario based? Is it putting people in the first person of, of, of your content? How do you really engage an audience on mass? Because it's very different if you're speaking to someone in a in a coffee shop, isn't it? As opposed to, you know, a one way sort of presentation,
Nick Looby: it's it is different, but not as different as people think. if if you're gonna be authentic, if you're gonna be very human, it's a bit like a chat in a coffee shop, but on
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: stage it's bigger. Everything's bigger because your audience is is bigger. And
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: I think that your your first your first port of call is realistically what are you looking to achieve for the audience? what would
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: be a really good day, really good result for them if they left.
David Bancroft: Yes, brilliant.
Nick Looby: knowing, thinking, doing the following things. Right. So brilliant result for them would be this. Okay, how am I going to get there? Right. Based
David Bancroft: Yeah,
Nick Looby: on who they are, right? What's going on in their world? What how old
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: are they? How much time do they have? What what is what is what does their environment kind of look like?
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: and then crafting your content, your stories, choosing your stories appropriately. So it it absolutely resonates with each and every one. of those audiences. And the
David Bancroft: Mm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: the the conversation in the coffee shop, if you and I were sitting having a having a quick brew in a coffee shop rather than on on the podcast, would
David Bancroft: Love that Nick.
Nick Looby: it it would it would be similar, right? We would we would exchange stories, we would
pick up on what resonates, what doesn't resonate, and and we would explore this this beautiful dance of communication that we've evolved,
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: be amazing at.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: On stage it's slightly different because you're doing all well a lot of the talking.
David Bancroft: doing the heavy lifting.
Nick Looby: Yeah, you're guiding where the conversation goes. I
David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: I love it when the audience get involved. And I've I've done talks before that have have only been that. That
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: I I turned up once to do to do a talk and there was there was a massive screen. I and
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: and I said, there's there's there's a big screen for for your content. I said, I I d don't any content. I'm not I'm not a big fan of of of
David Bancroft: I'm the content.
Nick Looby: slides. I don't have don't have anything to put up on the big screen. I thought you were here to talk about such and such a subject. So no, no, I I'm I'm gonna I thought I was gonna talk about this subject. And big confusion. Someone had organized
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: the event and someone else was there and crosswires. So I tell you what, why don't we just ask the audience? We
David Bancroft: Let's do it. Mm.
Nick Looby: ask the audience what they want. And this the this audience was was a university, so a massive room of students. Why don't we ask them what they want? I'm a communication guy. If it's communication, sign me up. So
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: all we did all for the for the whole event, just ask them, okay, what what what what do you want help with? What do you what what do you need to know? And it turns out
David Bancroft: They're amazing.
Nick Looby: it an an older student audience, all they want to know, David, is how do I how can I tell if they fancy me and how do I communicate in an interview? And if I covered those two things, it was a great event. All right. But
David Bancroft: Wow, winning.
Nick Looby: they just fire any question you like at me. And you know, I I I'm an old bloke now, so I've been around the block. I've got
David Bancroft: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: I've got some stuff to offer.
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: so for me it's more of a conversation, even though
David Bancroft: Amazing.
Nick Looby: on stage, you know, you you you need to know exactly where you're going with it.
David Bancroft: Yeah, no, I love that. and what, what, I mean, two topics. How do I know if someone fancies me and how to say a job interview? It's funny because obviously, as you'll be aware, I'm a recruitment professional and I spend a lot of my time speaking with job seekers, candidates, applicants, people that are going to sit in an interview. and often just the framing of the environment changes people's minds so much. So they have a complete shift. So I always tell my, my. candidates, you have to remember that everybody
in the process wants you to be successful. You're not, you're not, you haven't been asked into someone's HQ in the big shiny office with this panel of people all hoping you're going to fail. They're backing you. They want you to be successful. They want you to, to blow their socks off and be what they hope you will be. And again, framed in the right way. That's such a positive reinforcement for you walking through the door and look, you know, I've watched the apprentice plenty and we're all familiar with the grilling session towards the end of the series, It's not like that in reality. It's rarely, I've rarely ever heard of an interview process like that. Everyone wants you to be successful. And if, if you know you have that support just off the bat, you should feel good about. you know, the opportunity that you're walking into.
Nick Looby: Yeah, very true. It's it' you know, good for TV, but not a a reflection on reality. I've similarly, I've never been into an interview process that has been, you know, like being thrown into a shark tank. Of course not. You know, people people
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: peop generally people are nice. Same with audiences if you're on stage. They want you to be engaging, successful,
David Bancroft: Yes. Yep.
Nick Looby: they want you to be interesting, share some really cool stories. They're on your side.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: You know, why why wouldn't I want to perform for them?
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. And again, fun enough to switch him back to the interview thing. It's as much an opportunity for candidates to interview the client as it is for the client to interview the candidates. So if they are being, you know, frankly, a bit of a dick, then that's gonna, that's gonna affect how you see them and the opportunity of working with them day to day, would have thought. yeah, it's a,
Nick Looby: Yeah, wants to who wants to work? Christ, work's hard, right? And work is long. Who wants to work for a load of dicks? Sot that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm glad
David Bancroft: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: that came out in the interview because it would have been a big mistake to find that out six months' time. Yeah. Absolutely, mate.
David Bancroft: Dodged a bullet. Yeah, dodged a bullet. So no, that is interesting. So where has speaking taken you? Because obviously I see you popping up at all sorts of amazing events and on stages, but what's maybe the most unusual or unlikely place that this speaking gig has ever taken you, Anything off the top of your head comes to mind?
Nick Looby: Yeah, there it's it's it's amazing, right? So I'm I'm I'm a bit of a planner, so given half a chance, I I want to see the venue. I want to speak to the the the tech team. I
David Bancroft: Yeah, nice. That's good.
Nick Looby: I I went to military boarding school, right? So one thing in military boarding school is you're never ever late. In fact you're ridiculously early. But
David Bancroft: Yes.
Yep.
Nick Looby: I'd rather be an an an hour early than five minutes late. So I I'll turn
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: up to a venue and I've been to speaking venues before and and helped them with the chairs because I'm there that early. and yeah, yeah. How can I help, right? Ha how can I help? If I can help in any way,
David Bancroft: Wow. So literally putting the chairs out and preparing the, wow, you are invested. You're invested in this. I love that. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: not necessarily just, you know, it's your turn to get on stage,
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: I'm up for it. I'm up for it. the the most I guess the most tricky one I I didn't know the venue. And I was I was on stage, I followed, I'm trying to think of the guy's name. one of the the pilots, actually the co pilot who was shot down in the one of the early wars, his tornado was shot down. His name's John. Great, great speaker. he it was it was oddly enough, it was it was a head teachers, primary school head teachers conference. And for some reason they've got this this guy he w weird recognize him because he w him and his pilot were shot down behind enemy lines. They were captured
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: and tortured for a number of weeks. The the prison they were in eventually got bombed and they escaped. but
David Bancroft: Wow.
Nick Looby: there was pictures on the front of the sun of of them two beaten up, and the the headline was What have they done to our boys?
David Bancroft: That sounds familiar actually, Nick. That does sound familiar. And I
Nick Looby: Yeah, yeah. John I
David Bancroft: should know that actually. And it kind of frustrates me that I don't off the top of my head. But yeah, that's familiar to me.
Nick Looby: I d and well it frustrates me. I was there, right? I was there. And I'm sitting I'd like sitting back
David Bancroft: Not in the tornado.
Nick Looby: I'd sit at the back of the room, right, and I like to make notes on what the other
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: speakers are talking about so I can refer to it. and if any of the
David Bancroft: Mm. Yeah, that's good.
Nick Looby: sorts of things I'm gonna talk about have already been covered, I can scrub them from the talk, right? Nice,
David Bancroft: Yeah, avoid the duplication. Yeah.
Nick Looby: nice human thing to do. So I'm sitting at the back of the room, John comes on, and the first two minutes of his talk are are simply images on the big screen of tornadoes doing amazing things, right? Flying at that ridiculous speeds. And he's got bat out of hell playing over the sound system. And I'm I'm
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: in there, I'm I'm at the back of my little book and I've just written totally top gun. Right.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.
Nick Looby: How am I supposed to follow this? Right? my god. And it was great, right? It was great. The audience loved it. I don't know what how relevant
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: the content was for primary school head teachers. But guys got a story to tell and I'd be yeah, Nick, you're next. Best of luck. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I d I think I might
David Bancroft: Amazing, isn't it? Lost my voice. Amazing.
Nick Looby: have started by saying, Well, I haven't been shot down. and behind enemy lines captured and tortured for six weeks. but I do have some really cool and useful content for ya.
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, no, probably that's fair. And I love that idea of actually making notes on previous speakers, because I've been to in the past whereby clearly it's pre-prepared material and content. And often, unfortunately, you'll get a situation where someone does almost repeat in echo of the first speaker, because they're speaking about similar topics. And then you immediately lose traction. You immediately lose engagement, don't you? Because you've... you know, it just feels like a deja vu and yeah, there's no value to that. So I think that's good to be responsive and receptive to that. That's good. Nick, tell me about, I'm just going to kick off with the title. Tell me about being a modern zombie
Nick Looby: this thing, right? And
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: and I'm delighted you've already seen this on the on on the podcast before. Thank you, David Bell. A Christmas cracker indeed.
David Bancroft: Bookcase recommendation? Yep, bookcase. Yes, indeed. Yes.
Nick Looby: so as a speaker, important
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: for me to not just be able to share thoughts, ideas, from stage, but share them in other formats as well. and In the old days, and to a degree still today, sharing those ideas in a book form, good idea. Two years of sweat, blood, and tears to get what's in here
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: into a form that actually kind of works for people
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: reading it. Book got me in trouble, however. so it's a book about us. All right, the tagline,
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: how to how to stay ahead of the horde and communicate your way to incredible success. But it's a book about us, and it's a book about
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: how the way we communicate with one another has changed, and we are becoming
David Bancroft: Okay.
Nick Looby: more zombie than human in the way that we communicate. And once you kind of get that idea in your head, you think, well, yeah, that this is very true. You can't walk down the street now without seeing modern zombies everywhere. But people don't like to be called modern zombies. we know it's true, we know it's us. And we know we are more zombie than human to our detriment, but we don't like that being pointed out to us.
David Bancroft: So modern zombie being sort of just walking around with your phone and digitally connected constantly, is that what you're referencing there, Nick?
Nick Looby: So it it is. It's it's it's all of those those moments where you allow the technology into your world when
David
Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: realistically you shouldn't. When it when it really matters, you
David Bancroft: Okay, yes. Yeah.
Nick Looby: you you you you should choose a more human option. But because the tech is so good, because it's been
David Bancroft: Mmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: designed by the best psychologists on the planet, and
David Bancroft: course.
Nick Looby: they know we're cognitively vulnerable. They know we're easily manipulated. And, you know, whoever devised these things, these fruit machines that we all carry with us, they're not daft. They've got everything on there. There's there's a reason
David Bancroft: Mm. No. Yeah.
Nick Looby: there's an alarm clock, a torch, you know, a compass, a maps, and everything. Why would you why would you leave home without it? It's got it's
David Bancroft: You can't do without it, yeah.
Nick Looby: it's it's the digital Swiss army knife, right? my god, how useful is this? but but we know we know we're we're we're vulnerable to it. Right, we know it's more powerful than we are. We know trying
David Bancroft: Mmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: to separate ourselves from it is ridiculously difficult. It's all done on purpose. Right? So
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Nick Looby: we are far more zombie now than we used to be. We're more zombie now than when I started writing the book.
David Bancroft: So this is what wanted to ask you, Nick, because I've been aware of this book for many years. It predated Dave Adnett to the virtual QuickBrew bookcase. But when did you write it and when was it released? Because again, I think you were rather ahead of the curve on this, you?
Nick Looby: yeah, I didn't at the time I didn't think so, but it's it's more it's more relevant now than I think it's ever been. If I I I'm
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: I'm writing the follow-up and no surprise there's a big chunk in the follow up book that are all about AI, of course, because it wasn't really much of a thing. Well, I so it was published
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. Not as we know it now, yeah.
Nick Looby: published in twenty seventeen. and
David Bancroft: Wow.
Nick Looby: so I was writing it twenty fifteen, sixteen, A decade ago. and a decade ago, I I would
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: I'd be fascinated by walking around and and seeing modern zombies,
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: right? People people who are out and about with one another and they're just on their devices. And I used to take pictures. I thought, look,
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Nick Looby: modern zombies. I'll take a discrete little picture, right? Some sort of stalker in me, obviously. and and then I
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: thought, well, that's no point, right? Because they're absolutely everywhere.
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: We know it's true, right? The moment we're bored, right? B boredom never really used to be a thing. We used to fill our time, but the moment we're bored or the
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick
Looby: moment we're kind of tranquil,
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: we reach for our devices. And then suddenly
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: the boredom goes and the tranquility goes. And that that beautiful human kind of thinking processing time disappears because
David Bancroft: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: it's filled with just noise.
David Bancroft: Yeah, interesting. Can't wait for the follow-up actually. And it's funny you saying about, you know, walking and not being aware of your surroundings. I recently posted on LinkedIn, I was walking in a forest and someone had, and I don't know how they did this. I'd love to know. They had hung a soft toy monkey about 60 foot up a tree. And for the vast majority of people in that forest, they didn't see that. They're out enjoying nature. they're walking their dog, they're with their family or friends, but still people are walking along, just scrolling and looking at notifications and updates. None of them have seen this monkey hanging out of a tree. I'll put it on the episode actually. I'll drop it on this bit of video here, but yeah, what random things, but it sort of acted as a reinforcement that it's amazing what you see when you actually look up, isn't it?
Nick Looby: It it it is amazing what you see, and it's amazing what you can the ideas you can come up with and the things you can think, but we we
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: we we don't allow it anymore. You know, or the tech doesn't allow it anymore because it's got its hooks
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm.
Nick Looby: into us. and and and the thing is people say, no, that's that's not me. I I I warn people when I'm on stage. I say I'm gonna tell
David Bancroft: Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: you stuff, it's true, but you don't want to hear it. All right.
David Bancroft: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: And one of those things is that you're far more zombie than you you've ever ever
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: been. No, no. Yeah. And I said, Well, chances are you've been out to date night, right? You've been out to dinner with your lovely partner. You've been sitting,
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Nick Looby: you've been sitting having a conversation, lovely. Okay, and you're thinking, This is this is what life should be like. But the couple next
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: to you on the next table, they are only on their devices, aren't they? All night blooming long. And and half
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: of our conversation is, look at that lot. Look at the state of their relationship. They're all on their devices.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Nick Looby: What a shame, you know? And then and then your partner gets up to go for a wee. Instantly you pick your phone out of your pocket. what have I missed? Who am I? What's going on with the world? You know, we're
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: we're we're itching and twitching to bring out the fruit machines and add to this this ocean of noise that is drowning us all.
David Bancroft: Yeah, it's just one and the same. We're all doing it. So two things. You said you got in trouble with the book. What was the trouble and how did that happen?
Nick Looby: It makes people uncomfortable. Right? They don't you know, I'm I'm on stage and I'm saying, all
David Bancroft: Yeah okay so that was the pushback.
Nick Looby: right, yeah, you know, this this we're modern zombies, right? We're we lost the zombie war, by the way. Okay,
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: this is the right, this is how we used to communicate. Okay, and everywhere all us humans, we know this is the case. Right. We we used
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: to communicate with with with empathy and and rapport building and in a way that massively resonated, right? This was
David Bancroft: Yes, yeah.
Nick Looby: we've evolved for thirty million years to be brilliant. At communicating empathy, rapport and resonance. yes. my goodness gracious. We we know it when we
David Bancroft: You
Nick Looby: feel it. and we fell in love with cheap, easy and convenient tools. Right. And and
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: I I'll ask the audience, said, Right, imagine Kate, you you you you've got loads of let's call them friends for want of a much, much better word on Facebook, for example. So and so instead of instead of Facebook reminding you that it it's such and such's birthday. If Facebook gave you a button that you could press that instead of reminding me it's someone someone's birthday, please wish them happy birthday on my behalf. Would you push that button? And most
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: people in the audience, yeah, I'd push that button, because they know full well wishing someone
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: happy birthday on Facebook, for example, is meaningless. Absolutely
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: zero value whatsoever. Okay, but
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: but that's because we love cheap, easy, convenient, that's the
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: direction we've gone in. If you're lucky, you might get a text. You very
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
Nick Looby: you you you get very, very few phone calls on your birthday now, because it's more effort. Yeah, you you know, you you
David Bancroft: Yeah, true interaction. Yeah.
Nick Looby: probably don't get a lot of cards for a host of reasons, but you i if it really mattered, you'd do something
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: different, you'd do it bit, you know, a bit more challenging and pick up a phone. But no, you just you just send
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, it's sad.
Nick Looby: a message cheap, easy, convenient. my goodness gracious, yes, please. Emails, right?
David Bancroft: Yeah, it is sad.
Nick Looby: Right, just sit on the backside and send emails all day. Even even even the important stuff. And think
David Bancroft: Mmm, yeah. Mmm.
Nick Looby: we'll think, and this is the issue, we'll think that
that's job done. Right? but but it you
David Bancroft: Yeah, yes.
Nick Looby: imagine you imagine I it it it Imagine
David Bancroft: Just half baked, isn't it? It's a...
Nick Looby: if it really mattered you picked up the phone and said I'm I
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: I will email email you, I just to have a chat with you first and what I'll do, I'll summarize this chat
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: and I'll I'll ping it on an email, but I just want to have a chat. I just want to talk to you about this or that. and the thing is we we f we flexed this for for we've evolved to be brilliant at it. Brilliant at
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: it. Then our phones came along twenty odd years and we fell in love with it, replaced all of the good stuff with the
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: stuff that isn't as good.
David Bancroft: The second thing I was going to ask you though, just following on from something we were referencing a minute ago, doom scrolling and captive to the algorithm and the design of this is, you presumably seen the meta Facebook? I don't know if it's court case or whatnot, whereby they have been made to modify their algorithm for, I think it's under 16. So have you seen this recently, Nick?
Nick Looby: Yeah, very interested, because okay, my my my my stuff's not anti technology, but I am very, very disappointed in big tech. and they hoodwinked us and they'll do the same with AI, that please don't police us and our industry. We need to excel. so we'll police ourselves. And they
David Bancroft: Yep. Yep.
Nick Looby: they didn't police themselves at all. They did everything they they could to manipulate us. I didn't care about their audience. just simply
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: wanted to make a load of money for their shareholders. like
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: most technology starts off pretty good and then
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: you just get rinsed essentially.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: because you as a customer not really not really relevant money to be made.
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: and it's taken it's taken twenty years for governments, organizations, industries to r to to get on top of the issues,
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: the harm, the problems, only just starting to do something
David Bancroft: Or at least challenge it, at least try and challenge it. I mean, whether they're on top of it or not is debatable, but bits of step in the right direction, I would have thought.
Nick Looby: Yeah, I think the response is getting better, but it's been pathetic. And I I liken
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: it. so the the the idea that and I did the same, right? My kids go into senior school with these devices, you know, for all what I thought were the right reasons.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: I liken it to that us now giving our kids this tech because we think it's the right thing to do, I
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: liken it to Smoking during pregnancy. Okay. And
David Bancroft: It's hard hitting Nick.
Nick Looby: asking the question, why did we not know? Right? Because now we know, right? Smoking during
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: pregnancy is ridiculously harmful. But back
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: in the day, we didn't know. Similarly,
David Bancroft: Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: we thrust devices into the hands of our kids,
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: thinking it was the right thing, thinking it was okay, but We will look back at now and think, why did we not know? And just like Big Tobacco,
David Bancroft: really interesting.
Nick Looby: Big Tech, same playbook, have played
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: all they've played us. Just like Big Tobacco
David Bancroft: It's really interesting.
Nick Looby: did.
David Bancroft: Yeah, because we had a guest, Mike Tarber from Every Child Online, which is a charity that I'm an advocate for. I support them at Expos, etc. And at the heart of their mission, they take, if you haven't heard of Mike or the charity, they take unwanted or used devices. They could be desktop laptops, mobile phones, could be old servers, screens, even old cabling, et cetera. They'll then clean them, destroy data, certified destruction for the donor companies. And then they'll look to donate those devices into social causes, scores, vulnerable groups, et cetera, et cetera. That's all good. But there is an element of putting a device into the hand of a child that maybe hasn't had one before. And Mike takes that with great... know, responsibility and they've devised training courses, engaging projects, try and make sure that they're not exploited because they now have this Pandora's box. and B that they hopefully use it in, the right way. But I'm with you. and, I, my daughter has a phone and has had for many years now, but there is the flip side, isn't there of exclusion. So if you don't have a device, then you're not in the conversation. You know, you're not on the WhatsApp group. You're not maybe seeing the posts that people are speaking about in the playground. You know, I used to go into playground and talk about the football from Saturday and everyone's aware of it. Everyone knew what the score was, what went well, what went badly. But now it's very much more in real time, you know, on the bus into school, you know, what someone said on social. So without that connection, without those devices that... they are excluded socially in a way that they wouldn't have been in the past. So it's a fine balance, isn't it?
Nick Looby: A very difficult issue. and we are only realistically only just getting on top of it. And it's
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: ridiculously too late. Right? The whole generation,
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: whole generation, right? We look around and think, well, why is there an increase in all of these kind of mental health issues and and various
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick
Looby: other things? and and realistically there is a there is a a root cause to it all. But you're right, there's a massive
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: dilemma.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: Of how how how do I strike the right balance? And what what hasn't helped us parents, adults, helping our youngsters navigate, what hasn't helped is the big tech on purpose changed the narrative. Right? They changed our language. and quite insidiously, they changed the way we use words. Okay, so the way we use the word friend. The way we use the word like, the way we use the word social, right? And there's nothing social about social media. they're
David Bancroft: Yeah, I think that's fair,
Nick Looby: not really friends online, right? They're not there's that in it, right? If you if you're broken
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: down midnight and it's raining and you're you're not gonna go onto Facebook
David Bancroft: You
Nick Looby: and pick at random one of these hundreds of friends, right? And it
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: and and that that they they just changed how How we see the world, you know, it's just like ridiculous. That doesn't mean what it used to mean anymore.
David Bancroft: I've never thought of it that way, Nick, but that does make perfect sense.
Nick Looby: Yeah, we we we are being changed. Hence the you know, kind of the modern zombie kind of feel to it. We are
David Bancroft: Mmm
Nick Looby: changing how the words we use, how we see the world, not because we have decided, because we are being manipulated down a particular road. And AI and AI will do will do more than its fair share of this as well.
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: Despite the tools, despite all the good stuff. Right? I'm not I'm not anti it. I brilliant. Innovation.
David Bancroft: Hmm. No, no, no. Yeah.
Nick Looby: Brilliant. All the good stuff, all the tools. If the if
David Bancroft: Hmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: if these tools enable more human, bring it on. If they replace the human, I got a question mark. Okay. and we know, we know AI will replace the human in a whole host of ways.
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: But the the the currency that that social media have used is attention, right? That's their currency. They want your attention, right? They will steal your
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: eyeballs. that's that's their currency of choice. Brilliant at it. Absolutely brilliant. Stealing
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: your eyeballs, stealing away from all the other things, away from your friends and family and everything. So attention, that's their currency. AI's currency is attachment. All right. You talk to it, you're the best thing. All right. You'll it'll tell you whatever you want to hear. Okay.
David Bancroft: Mm-mm.
Nick Looby: plus, yeah, I'll do that for you, David. Don't worry, don't you don't you worry
David Bancroft: Yeah, yes.
Nick Looby: about putting those slides together. I'll do that for you. I'll do this. You've got a report
David Bancroft: Yeah, yes.
Nick Looby: to write. Just tell me what you roughly. I'll do that for you.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: until you're so attached you can't really do anything without it. And here's here's the real issue behind it, if you
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: if if you'll indulge me. any muscle that you stop using will atrophy.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Nick Looby: All right. let me give you a a simple example. Okay. Our ability to remember long form numbers. Okay, telephone numbers.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yes.
Nick Looby: Don't worry. We haven't had to remember telephone numbers for a long time. They're all stored in our devices. You need to know
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: two telephone numbers. You need to know your own. Not
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: so bad. You need to know one other, bit more of a challenge, in case you lose your device. Right. Who you're going to
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: call on someone else's device if you lose your phone. Right. Right.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yes, my wife's number and my number. Yeah.
Nick Looby: So so let's say they're the only two you need to know. Okay. Fine, because everything else stored in your device. If you don't know your wife's number, you're going to find it very difficult to remember it because we've not had to do it for so long. That
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: muscle that's in our head has atrophied and we can no longer do it.
David Bancroft: That's a great example because it used to be like a roller deck on demand, didn't it? You could phone your mate, could phone your mum, you could phone your wife, you could phone your daughter, child, but they were all there, weren't they? But you're right.
Nick Looby: Yes. No drama, because we don't need to. Right? Similarly, simple maths. All right. How many
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: times have you that there's there's there's a very bit of simple maths there, it's right there. Realistically,
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: you should you should know the answer because it's it's simple. You reach for your phone,
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: you let the phone do it, and of course it is. Of course it is. You know, silly me. Of course it is.
David Bancroft: Yeah, it's that convenience taking over,
Nick Looby: That is another muscle that we've allowed to atrophy, right? We don't we don't do simple maths anymore.
David Bancroft: Mmm. Mmm.
Nick Looby: we let the tech do the heavy lifting. So what happens in a number of years' time, take take those two minimal examples and extrapolate to
David Bancroft: Mm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: what we allow AI to do, there will come a time, I believe, that we won't be able to realistically think for ourselves. Because we're looking with just every chuck it all into AI. Right. And it's it's the
David Bancroft: It's a scary thought.
Nick Looby: results are great, right? that's brilliant. Thanks very much. That
would have taken me an hour to do, and AI's done it in two minutes. Why wouldn't I use that tool? But there'll come a point like the long form phone numbers, like the fact
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: that we can no longer concentrate long enough to lose ourselves in long form fiction. We don't have the attention spans. Your kids don't read anymore.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: the parents don't like that. My kid reads. yeah, how old are they? They're eight. All right. Have they got a smart
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: device? Not yet. Well you wait. Right? Our attention spans
David Bancroft: Mm-mm-mm.
Nick Looby: aren't long enough. Right? Unless unless you are practiced
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: at long form fiction. You you just can't y no wonder social media are going to short form video. Right?
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: Because we can't our attention span we can't even read the bloody stuff anymore. Two hundred words, no thank you. Give me a short video. 'Cause my attention span can't handle
David Bancroft: It's funny to say that,
Nick Looby: it.
David Bancroft: yeah, my co-host James spoke right towards the beginning of the pod actually. And he spoke about the optimization of short form and specifically working on both sides and not only what people are sort of taking from their device, but actually films are being optimized around the probability. that people are actually gonna be scrolling at the same time. So, whereas in the past you'd have a film like, I don't know, I think the example we used was Inception, where if you're not dialed in, sorry, just turn the thing off because you're gonna lose it. But these days, they don't wanna make content like that because they know for a period of that film, you're actually gonna be looking at your device. You're not even gonna be looking at, you've sat down, you've got your popcorn, and you're gonna be looking at a device rather than consuming. the thing you've actually sat down to watch, which is again, a sad evolution of where we are with filmmaking, I think. And it shows, doesn't it, in the programming that's on TVs and many of the films that are released, they're not as deep, they're not as thoughtful as maybe they would have been in the past.
Nick Looby: We we we can't concentrate like we used to. We don't we don't c we haven't got the attention span, the the ability to concentrate.
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: We haven't got w realistically, we we've not got the scope to think
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: about the really difficult stuff. because we can't concentrate long enough. So we'll we'll outsource
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: that to AI and AI will do whatever and we we we'll just get worse at it. Right? We'll g
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: we'll just you know, back in the day we used to w every car we've ever owned, chances are we knew the number plate. All right. And then we get a new car
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: and we gotta take a f photo of the number plate 'cause at some point some
David Bancroft: Well... Yeah...
Nick Looby: some you're in some pub and you've got to let the pub know you've parked your car and you can't remember your
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: own photo We've lost the skills.
David Bancroft: Yeah, don't ever forget to put your number plate in it with a spoon. That's all I'm going to say. We'll
Nick Looby: Yeah.
David Bancroft: leave that one there. But no, you're right. It's funny. National insurance number. You just used to know it. Bank account number, the other bank account number, the number plate, the birthdays even, the birthdays, the phone numbers. You had it all stored, hard copy, and you could just access it on demand.
Nick Looby: Yeah. And I'm not saying we need you know, need to go back in time and start, you know, keeping a paper diary that
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: David Bell takes the mick out of me constantly about, or, you know, a Rolodex. because it's all stored in our device. Okay, so which we're fine as long as the device is fine. it's just it's just that we not it's not the fact we don't need to, it's the fact that we
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: no longer can because that
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: muscle has withered away. And my
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: my worry is there are other muscles us humans have that will similarly wither away. Our ability to think way outside the box, because thinking
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: new diff difficult stuff, that's that's hard work. Okay. We used to go away for
David Bancroft: interesting.
Nick Looby: a day, you know, a corporate day to do some real constructive thinking.
David Bancroft: Mm. Mm.
Nick Looby: We don't do that anymore, right? Because AI will think for us. Right, so you know what's what's the point? We'll be easy to replace because
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: we we we haven't got that cognitive ability that we used to have.
David Bancroft: One thing I've never allowed myself to do, Nick, is use the prompts that are within LinkedIn, for example, or some of the sort of email clients that now may sit on top of Outlook. I've never allowed myself to use an autonomous response because I have identified that A, that's a slippery slope, and B, I'm communicating without comprehending. So if ever that's referenced in the future, I won't remember what I've emailed because actually I wasn't really involved. just pressed the send automation. But yeah, you're right. It's sold as a benefit. It's great. know, LinkedIn will respond to that post, acknowledge that engagement, but it's not an acknowledgement. It's a palm off. It's, it feels at best a courtesy, but there's nothing memorable about that for the recipient or the originator is there.
Nick Looby: What what's what's happened? We've let it happen, right? We we we never knew we were fighting a zombie war. We didn't know until it was too late.
David Bancroft: Mm, mm.
Nick Looby:
We've we've allowed the the blurring. two two big big blurs. One the the
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: the blurring between connection. We thought that was important. I've got a thousand friends, yeah. And connected. Right? Huge difference. Huge difference.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yep.
Nick Looby: Connection, easy peasy, being connected takes a lot more effort.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: and the difference between transactional and
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: something that's more interaction. Or interactional if that's a word. Most
David Bancroft: Okay. I like it.
Nick Looby: most of the tech, brilliant at transactions. Brilliant.
David Bancroft: Yeah, of course.
Nick Looby: doesn't need any empathy, right? Tech tech empathy free, transactional, right? And auto response to email, let AI respond to this, LinkedIn to this or whatever, prompt.
David Bancroft: No.
Nick Looby: Transactional. All right. And if your business, if
David Bancroft: Yeah, lose it.
Nick Looby: you if you run a transactional business, it's great. What a great time to be alive. But most of
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: us, if we're still in the people business, we've we've got to work harder at the interactions. What does it mean to to them? Amazon Amazon, brilliant transactional company. You don't have relationship with them. You
David Bancroft: Of course. Yeah, No.
Nick Looby: more likely have a relationship with a delivery driver than you do the organization because it it's designed
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Nick Looby: to be perfectly transactional.
David Bancroft: frictionless.
Nick Looby: Want this, you've got this. Absolutely. our businesses, because we deal with people, you in recruitment, of course, it's a people thing, right? Then it's interactions.
David Bancroft: How fun is this, Nick? I regularly speak with both my clients and candidates alike. I'm speaking more specifically about target clients that I want to work with and candidates I'm engaging. So many, so often will say to me, Dave, can't believe you phoned me today. And for me, that's just mind blown. Yeah, I mean, I've been in recruitment for a long time now and it's ultimately a phone based job and it always should be. If you're not on the phone, then perhaps you're out meeting someone. There's still connection there. But this concept that target clients would be surprised that I pick up the phone and want to speak with them or candidates who I'm trying to represent and further their careers should be surprised that there's a person in the mix. Again, I just think it shows you where we are, doesn't it? More now than ever.
Nick Looby: Yeah, 'cause your audience is another human. Right? It's it's it's an organization,
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: but the organisation made up of of humans. So why wouldn't you flex the human centric skill of communicating human to human? Okay, the moment
David Bancroft: It's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: you you all of your I've got a candidate
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: and their skills look like this, and it here's your C V and a and a covering letter on an email.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: you know, that AI can do that.
David Bancroft: Yeah, well, absolutely. And RECTECH, so recruitment technology, is enjoying a boom time currently, and they're selling something for everyone, all wrapped in a shiny AI sleeve, obviously. But yeah, humans are still at the centre. And funny enough, I've seen perhaps in the industry, so from industry side, recruitment side, I've seen many of the bigger agencies now resisting. some of the automations that they were running to before. I've seen them resisting some of the, again, those frictionless processes that seem like the most obvious workflows in favor of injecting people back into the process. And they're the wins. And this isn't a spoiler alert, but for recruiters, that's the win. Keep yourself as a human in the center of a human process. A client is a human, a candidate is a human, you as a recruiter in the middle, you connect the two entities, you're a human. If you try and automate that way, then things get lost in communication. Things get completely missed. But if you remain present and connect people, you'll probably be successful. Now, again, more than ever, I'd say in the recruitment industry. But getting back to long form, this is a nice segue, I think, into what would be your book recommendation. We've spoken about modern zombies
Nick Looby: About modern zombies.
David Bancroft: and I'm happy for that to be the recommendation if you like, Nick. But...
Nick Looby: No, I c that'd be dreadful. I I started this podcast be saying, yeah, I don't mind applause and no well yeah, it's my book. What the nonsense,
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: nonsense. I'm a nice guy, right?
David Bancroft: Absolutely. So what have you got for us? What would you like to add to the virtual Quick Brew bookcase?
Nick Looby: Okay, this this this this changed my world. Right. It's The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. Okay, so essentially
David Bancroft: Awesome. Yes, got that.
Nick Looby: this this took ever all everything I was thinking
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: and proved it with the science. Right. So there's big sections
David Bancroft: Wow, okay.
Nick Looby: here on the decline of the play-based childhood, and then a massive section
David Bancroft: Yep.
Nick Looby: on the rise of the phone-based childhood. So what Jonathan's
David Bancroft: Wow.
Nick Looby: managed to do And it is amazing. Is
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: take these are all the issues that are creating a generation that are massively anxious. This is what's caused it. Here's the scientific
David Bancroft: Yep. Yep.
Nick Looby: proof. And this is what we can do about it. For the first time, you know, we'd spent years and years kind of thinking, well, something's not quite right,
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: not
knowing, not really yet put our finger on the science. And Jonathan has put his finger on the science. And
David Bancroft: Love that.
Nick Looby: absolutely essential reading, not just for you know, parents, but
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: anyone who thinks actually something's not quite right. Something's
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: something along the way has gone a gone amiss with me, with my relationship, with with the way I I I I run my life, my satisfaction and why are my kids so anxious. He
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: he's absolutely nailed it.
David Bancroft: So he's crystallized the issue and he's doubled down with a science that supports that.
Nick Looby: Yeah. And I've I listened to him on a podcast and he said if he if he was rewriting the book now, he he
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: he the thing he missed, 'cause he he looked at there's a massive problem with with a generation that are anxious, the
David Bancroft: Hmm.
Nick Looby: thing he said he missed was attention. They they
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: we've our attention, as we've discussed, has has been decimated.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's no, that's a, love that recommendation, Nick. And I haven't heard of the book let alone read it. So no, appreciate that. And that would be a good addition. And it's funny. You talk about attention and deficit. We reach most people via this pod in short form, re-auss, clips, soundbites, talking head, 30 second, you know, if you push it to a minute, you've got the jeopardy of losing your audience. And we have a... a loyal following which I'm grateful for that do consume whole episodes and do speak about the content as a whole. But most people that reference the pod to me will be as frank as to say, don't actually listen to the pod, but love what you say on it. And that's an interesting concept to try and wrap your head around. And again, it's just a way in which people consume things. And you just hope that that will lead into their greater engagement, as in put the time aside, have a quick brew. and listen to the pod, listen to the conversations. So that's interesting. Talking of a quick brew, you might've noticed I'm drinking this away and pull a slightly funny face after drinking this. This is a cup of tea, Nick, but it's made with coconut milk. I'll be honest, wasn't best prepared. He's spoken about preparation today. Didn't have milk in the office, but there was some coconut milk. So I've indulged myself. And every time it catches me out, it's a surprise, coconut. I think I like it, but I'm not used to it. But have you ever had coconut milk in tea?
Nick Looby: I had I I applaud trying things differently, right? and
David Bancroft: Yeah
Nick Looby: on on the back of our conversations, people are trying things to do things differently less because they're they're they're we've in the despite being surrounded by time saving devices, we have
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: no we'd no more time on our hands than ever before. The big promise
David Bancroft: with you. Yeah.
Nick Looby: of AI is, man, your AI will do it and you can go walk in in nature. Nonsense. No one's going out there walking in nature. AI is going
David Bancroft: No. No.
Nick Looby: to give them more time to send more emails. Right? We're going to do get more stuff done. I have had coconut milk. I had a year as a vegan for let's try this. Let's try this. only
David Bancroft: Cool. Yeah.
Nick Looby: a year. a year was enough to tell me it was too hard. I absolutely applaud those people that stick to it. I missed eggs and cheese and milk and stuff. I'm vegetarian, so kind
David Bancroft: Okay, yeah.
Nick Looby: of halfway. But
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: yeah, I I've I've experienced different things and it's
David Bancroft: Hmm. Yeah.
Nick Looby: it's an interesting taste.
David Bancroft: Yeah, I think I like it, but I'm just surprised every time I take a sip, it just throws me off a little bit, obviously, but maybe I could get used to it.
Nick Looby: Ma may maybe this is the analogy we need, right?
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: So I tried this human centric thing. You know, I I know I
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: used to be good at it. I tried it and I I wasn't sure if I liked it or not, you know. But
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: I I made a phone call instead of sending ten emails.
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: I'll try it again. I'll try it again. Yeah, 'cause like most things, right? The more you do it, making phone calls to the younger generation scary, right? Because they've never had to do it. We're we're fine,
David Bancroft: Yeah, there you go. That's strong. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Mm.
Nick Looby: right? We used to do it We we've done it for loads, so shouldn't be an issue for us. We just we just stopped doing it.
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: but if if it's scary, good, right? Do it do it a bit more. If it if it really matters, if it counts,
David Bancroft: try new things is good. I love it. I think it's great. I applaud that. Are you still running? I know that when I last met with you, were running all sorts of marathons, half marathons and running rings around most people. you still doing that?
Nick Looby: Despite getting older, yes, David, I am still running. And
David Bancroft: keeping you young.
Nick Looby: fairly new news. David Bell
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: and I are running London Marathon next year together. yes.
David Bancroft: Are you? what, who are you supporting?
Nick Looby: We are running for the Tribe Freedom Foundation, anti modern
David Bancroft: Okay.
Nick Looby: slavery charity. and but there'll be there'll be lots of noise about it. David and I are really gonna kind of really go in for it. so yes. My my
David Bancroft: Hmm. I can well imagine. I can well imagine.
Nick Looby: I've applied for London forever and a day, never got in through the ballot. I David David is is he's more focused than
I am. He said, I've
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: got I've got myself a charity place, Nick, and I've I've emailed them to see if they've got another place for you. And there we are. We're we're
David Bancroft: Cheers mate.
Nick Looby: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, careful what you wish for, Nick. Yeah.
David Bancroft: Thanks. I wasn't actually being serious. There's a reason I didn't try too hard.
Nick Looby: Mm-hmm.
David Bancroft: Is Dave ready for a marathon, a full marathon? Has he done one or?
Nick Looby: we've got a few months. I don't think he's ever run a full marathon. So he's in he's in for some he's in for some adventures. Yeah.
David Bancroft: Awesome. Yeah. absolutely. I'm going to give you this as a... send you on your way with that. That's awesome. No, that good, good. So in answer to the question, still very much running. And again, I'll link the charity in the show notes. Sounds like an interesting,
Nick Looby: Brilliant. That's very kind.
David Bancroft: sounds like a good one. Quick fire questions then, because I'm conscious we're running out of time and you know, really enjoyed this chat Nick. Vanity metrics, obviously we've spoken about likes and the distortion of what that word even means. Vanity metrics, should they just be scrapped entirely from social media? Should you see a like count in your opinion or should that just be lost?
Nick Looby: I I I kind of I I think it's I think it's gone wrong that I think that was been we've been manipulated to only think about that. Only think about how many views, how many likes has my content got, rather than is it good content? but
David Bancroft: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: I but there is a certain, you know, a social proof. You know, my
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: my tribe think this is good, so it's a decent recommendation.
David Bancroft: Yes. That's a point. Yeah, that's a good point. There is.
Nick Looby: So it's a th there is a balance, but I think I think that balance has been cast to one side and
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: and we've manipulated to to think only about the views and the likes rather than
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: is this content of value? That's probably why a lot of short form video is just people mucking about, you know, and and you're
David Bancroft: Yeah, totally.
Nick Looby: scrolling constantly through TikTok and occasionally giggling. there's no value in it.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: It's but it it's it's it's gone down to the kind of the most basic level of trying to steal your eyeballs.
David Bancroft: So if you had a five minute video on YouTube, you know, would you favor 10 people watched all five minutes of it with concentration or a thousand people liked it?
Nick Looby: Well, d you know, I'm I'm I like the idea that a thousand people liked it. But but but but on on on reflection on reflection,
David Bancroft: We'll just work with that as the example.
Nick Looby: I'd rather one person got benefit from it than
David Bancroft: There you go.
Nick Looby: than a million people kind of the metric set
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: I I I did some short form videos on TikTok. I th I thought this is this is a bit fairly new in the UK at the time. This is this is a format. Let me see if I can reach a different audience. I did
David Bancroft: Yes.
Nick Looby: very short form, here's a human-centric communication strategy, I think you might like. I did about 10 of them. the most popular one by far was
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: how to get into a conversation with someone I don't know. How to talk to a stranger essentially, right? Very popular in 16
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: to 18 year old Americans, according to the
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: the analytics and that that that one
David Bancroft: The analytics, yeah.
Nick Looby: that one went viral and that that made me feel good. And then what I did, I looked in to to the to the stats and looked
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: at the an analytics and think, look at 10,000 views almost overnight. Wow. Everyone's watching it for about a second. The the algorithm did that, nothing to do with my content. The algorithm
David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: somehow bumped that up. More people saw it, but only for a second. They said, middle aged white bloke, I'll scroll on to someone for in pens in bottles, much more entertaining.
David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Looby: And I I thought, well, it's a waste of time. So I stopped. I think they're still on TikTok, but and I think that's the most evil of the social media platforms. so I stopped. I stopped yeah tell
David Bancroft: Okay, heard it here first. Yeah.
Nick Looby: you what David, if and any of your listeners, if you've got TikTok on your phone, all right, do me a favor, delete it. Right
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. I don't have it. I don't have it, Nick. And I've resisted. And again, there is some exclusion there. People are talking like, did you see that on TikTok? Or, you know, I'll put it on TikTok. Yeah, not interested. I don't have TikTok.
Nick Looby: Yeah, yeah, have but have it on your you know, your laptop, your whatever. But there's if it's on your laptop, same with any social media, okay? Unless it's your business, get it off your phone, right? 'Cause it's steal it's stealing your life away. Have it on your laptop.
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: There's a just enough barrier of entry there. Because you've got to power up, you've got to go log on. You know, it doesn't
David Bancroft: Yes, yeah, little resistance, yeah.
Nick Looby: mean you you can't do that if you you know, Facebook users, for example. You can do it on your laptop, you don't need it on your phone.
David Bancroft: Mmm.
Nick Looby: Right, 'cause that
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: is stealing your life. And not just your
David Bancroft: Yeah.
Nick Looby: life, stealing it away from you and all the people that you care about.
David Bancroft: Yeah, no, I think you're right. So Nick, wrapping up then, because again, I think we could chat all day, but yeah, I mean, we've already alluded to the lack of probability people will listen to long forms. So have to be a little cautious here, but I'd love it if you would to indulge us please with your final four, in essence, your golden nugget. So what's the one thought, lesson or piece of advice you'd like to leave our listeners with? Give you a little drum roll. We're building this up, Nick.
Nick Looby: Boom When it matters, take the stairs. I'll explain what I mean. Imagine a set of stairs, and next
David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Looby: to the set of stairs is an escalator. All right.
David Bancroft: Mm-hmm.
Nick Looby: Human-centric communication is akin to taking the stairs, whereas letting your technology do the heavy lifting is akin to riding the escalator. Escalator, ev I don't know where they go in, but everyone's on it. The stairs, human-centric communication, they're more difficult, they take more effort and longer. It's harder.
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: Essentially to take the stairs. They're better for us, metaphorically and physically. but when it really matters, you've got to take the slightly more difficult choice and choose
David Bancroft: Mm.
Nick Looby: a human centric option, even though it's more difficult than riding the escalator.
David Bancroft: Yeah. Nick, I'm going to give you one more. I could give this all you get. is the last. Amazing. dopamine. Amazing. Nick, superb. A great final thought, a fitting analogy, I think, to round off with. And I can't wait to share it with our audience. So it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Amazing catching up again after a little while. It's nice, isn't it? It's a chat rather than just engaged socially.
Nick Looby: Great job a channel.
David Bancroft: Nick, no doubt, we'll speak again soon. Thank you so much.
Nick Looby: Absolute pleasure. Thanks, David.
David Bancroft: there you go, guys. Another excellent episode and actually a great chat. Haven't spoken to Nick, as I said there, just for some time now. And it was great catching up and probably more than anything, just a reminder, you know, a reminder to keep communication front and center, a reminder that human process must prevail and that technology for all of its benefits and and shiny proposition, yeah, we need to keep it on the shelf as much as is possible. Use it if it's helpful, but don't allow it to run you or run the way in which you communicate. So really appreciate your time. I think it's gonna be the record length of episode. Testimony to what good engagement can lead to with Nick there. And until the next one, guys, thank you.