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Well, welcome to the Table Talk Podcast.
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My name is Dre Clark, and I am the discipleship pastor here at the Table Community Church.
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And today I am joined by our lead pastor, Dr.
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Bill Stewart.
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And we are so glad that you've joined us as we sit down and talk about what we are learning together as a church.
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Bill, so glad that you're here this morning.
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Great message this Sunday.
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I thought I was talking to you before the podcast.
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I thought it was just a really well-presented applicational message.
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I really, really liked it, liked the style.
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So go ahead and just fill people in on um and maybe if they missed it or just kind of a reminder of what we talked about this Sunday.
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Yeah.
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So we are continuing in our series in the book of Acts called to the ends of the earth.
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And the passage that we were focused on yesterday was Acts 15, verses 6 through 21, which covers a big section of what's referred to as the Jerusalem Council.
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So the Jerusalem Council was this big meeting of the church.
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And the way that I explained it in the message was basically to determine how Jewish the movement of the church was going to be.
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And so there's some debates in that related to following the Old Testament law and things like that.
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And so that's really what we covered.
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Yeah.
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I thought it was really um good the way that you approached this message too, is really kind of unique in the sense of, you know, you're taking this issue that's really deeply rooted in kind of the history of the early church, uh, but you brought it into kind of our day and age too, of um helping us really struggle with maybe what was being struggled with in this passage.
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So talk more about kind of just kind of your approach and kind of what you um, you know, did to kind of bring us into that moment of this, you know, climactic uh part in the book of Acts.
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Yeah, so you know, we've talked about like wanting to pull the curtain back um in terms of like message preparation in this podcast and stuff.
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And so for me to think about that and and then share that piece of this story is really interesting.
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Because as I was going through my own study, just like I always do, you know, read the passage, you know, think about it, look at commentaries, do all the things, like I got to the end of what I normally would do, and I had no idea what I was gonna talk about.
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And it wasn't that I didn't know what the passage meant.
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That's not the issue.
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Like I knew it was like this hugely significant decision for the future of the church that really set the direction.
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And so I understood the significance for us and what it means for us generally as non-Jewish people and our participation in the church and things like that.
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But like from an applicational perspective, I just didn't know what to do, like for a long time, like way longer than normal.
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And so I was just kind of thinking about it and then like reading the passage again, rereading the passage again.
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And then I kind of backed up um into the previous section that I did not read yesterday, where it says in verse five of Acts 15, but some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said it's necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
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And like for whatever reason, like that verse really stuck out to me.
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And I was like, man, okay, now I want to I want to think about this.
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If if I were there, what what role would I have played in this argument?
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Right?
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It might be a little bit arrogant to think that I would have a say in any of that, but like putting myself in that in that role, I think I would have thought, but rules are important.
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And so then I started to think about that a little bit and ruminate on that.
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So okay, so how can I develop a message related to that?
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And then that's where the um kind of I got the idea of stories that I love and hate.
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And so I also told the story of the prodigal son and the story of the workers in the vineyard, which fit well um thematically and story-wise with Acts 15.
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Um and so you can kind of restate kind of the same point in a slightly different way.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so I mentioned that in these stories that I love and hate, I love them because of what they mean and the significance of what they mean for me, but hate them because of the conviction that they bring when I really let the story, you know, penetrate into my heart or the spirit working through the text of scripture to do that.
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And so, like with the story of the prodigal son, I feel like I'm a lot more like the older brother.
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The story of the parable of the workers in the vineyard.
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So Jesus told this
Load full transcript
story.
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The workers who are hired in the morning get paid the exact same amount as those who are hired at the end of the day.
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And I mentioned that I feel often like the ones who are hired in the morning who say, wait a minute, it's not fair.
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Um, and that really brought us then into Acts 15, where it's like, you know, there is this perspective of these Pharisees who were not, this is so important to kind of uh shift our thinking from the way that we understand Pharisees in the stories of Jesus, as you know, Jesus is um like almost his enemies during his time and stuff like that.
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And then even then to think too, because we've seen this in the last couple of weeks in the message, that it's the Jews who show up and cause problems for Paul.
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And so these Pharisees aren't those people either.
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I think they're genuinely good-hearted people who are saying, but rules are important.
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You know, God gave us the Old Testament law for us to follow.
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We can't just do whatever.
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And that's where I feel like, man, if I were there in the drama of that event, I think I would have said, but rules are important.
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And then thinking about, okay, so what does that mean?
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What does that mean for my own life?
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Um, and so that's really where the development of the message came from.
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Yeah, no, I think that, you know, Acts 15, 5 is is such a key, it kind of sneaks up on you as you're reading it, but like you're in this scene, and it says that the Pharisees are included into this.
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And so I always think, too, when Jesus comes on the scene, you know, back in Luke, the first part of this book, you see the disciples wrestling with the message of Jesus.
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Though all these, you know, these stories that Jesus is telling, and he's talking to who?
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Jewish believers, people who are, who think they're following the rules, who think that they have it right, who are just off a little bit.
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And it's cool to see that now that the disciples go through their process with Jesus.
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And really the book of Acts is now the continuing work of what the Holy Spirit's doing through these uh disciples and through the apostles.
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And so you see the Pharisees that are here, they're wrestling with the same things that were back earlier.
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So I think tying that thematically was really brilliant.
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I mean, bringing in here's what the disciples had learned, and now we're handing this on, and it's being talked about at this Jerusalem Council.
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And then, by the way, hello, there are Pharisees.
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There are people that have responded well.
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Um, they're not all just bad guys.
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Yeah.
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They're they're Jewish believers, um, they're devote Jewish believers.
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Uh, they're the ones that Jesus was trying to get to respond during his ministry.
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Um, and he's not done with them yet.
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He they're still there, they're involved, and now they're coming together and they're kind of learning with um what's happening with the disciples in this council what God is coming.
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And they're talking about the same thing.
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They're talking about um, you know, all the way back to Amos, they're talking back to uh what the old testament said was gonna happen.
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Um, the Messiah is gonna come, and now they're trying to wrestle with this reality that why have the signs of this new era been applied to Gentiles?
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You know, what's going on and they're wrestling with this and they're coming in agreements and they're sending Paul out in agreements.
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And so it's a huge, huge important thing, but they're a part of it.
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Yeah.
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And God is still using, you know, his his work and his words to work on them.
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And so I think that's a really applicable thing to us.
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Um, well, kind of more on that a little bit, I want to talk through just some of the things that you said.
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So I really thought that you know, opening up with the things that you the stories that you love and hate, you know, and there is this reality within us that we wrestle with our way versus kind of God's way.
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And in our way typically is I earned that.
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I deserve that.
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And so I think your message kind of rightly brought us to the point where I think really everybody needs to get to in their faith, we don't deserve any of this.
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And so you you ended with these great points.
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Remember, we are a recipient of the redundancy of undeserved grace.
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You brought that out.
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Um, and we are the ones that that are also part of this too.
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And so kind of relating with whether you relate with the Pharisees that are there, you relate with people who know nothing about God and you're just learning about all this stuff, uh, we all are in the same boat.
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And so kind of talk about that a
little bit more of just bringing this message to that kind of gospel climax.
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What do you see as is important for us to understand about just that message itself?
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Yeah, I mean, I think where I wanted us to get to, and I say us, like because I do feel like this message was very personal.
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And so it was really uh uh my me sharing my own journey with the text, you know, and the message.
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But I think it is getting us to the place where we recognize that we have received God's grace, and the more that we live in light of that, like consciously at the forefront of our thinking, that's what changes our attitudes towards others.
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Um and I think I think that's what was happening with the witnesses too.
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I mentioned it in the message.
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So the witnesses of Peter and Paul and James, why did they say what they did?
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It's because they had really deeply received the grace of God and wanted other people to receive that too.
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Um, and and so that's highly significant, just to think about that, to welcome the conviction of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
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If we say that we're followers of Jesus, then the most important thing is living a life that pleases Jesus.
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The only way we can do that is to have the Holy Spirit convict us of those things that we get wrong, even though they're hard or we don't want to think about them.
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Um, and then the last, like that piece of the application was like the works piece, right?
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The things that we do as a result of faith, not a prerequisite for it, um, which is really important too.
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Yeah.
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Well, I want to go back to what you said earlier, too.
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You brought this out in the message, and I thought it was really good.
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This idea of why didn't Peter, why didn't these Jewish leaders go ahead and just make a system where they could have all the power?
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Um, and it's what we're saying earlier.
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It's because they had already gone through this process.
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They'd already asked Jesus, hey, who's gonna sit at your right hand?
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Peter had already made his big mistake and denied Jesus, and then Jesus shows up and redeems him.
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And so even the people that had every right probably to be, hey, we set the rules, we're in charge, they understood, no, it's we're not good either.
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You know, we need grace too.
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So they they've worked through this process of um, once again,
all have sinned.
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You know, uh we have messed this up and we need a savior.
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And so they've gone through this.
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And so in this moment, like you said, they had a chance to build whatever they wanted to build, but they're not.
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They've already learned that and they're relying on that grace.
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And so um then I want to go to the second thing you just said and ask kind of a follow-up question, too, just for application.
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So, all of this process in our life of receiving grace and what it does in us, and and realizing that we don't earn anything, that we don't do anything for God, you kind of ended with this uh statement that that works aren't a prerequisite, uh, but they do result in it.
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So I want to kind of just walk through with you practically what are, because I think people get confused here, kind of moving on from the story, what works are a result of proper faith?
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You know, for instance, you know, this is what they're gonna continue to talk about.
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And I think uh a lot of Paul's works are gonna talk about, well, what things should you do?
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Um, you know, what rules from the Old Testament do we keep?
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Do we bring in?
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Is it, you know, uh, this the Ten Commandments?
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Is that all we bring over?
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Or, you know, do we, you know, circumcision, idolatry to meet, you know, Jewish lifestyle.
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In fact, the very next section of the book that we're not gonna cover in this series, you know, Paul has this letter that he's gonna go off with from the council so he can kind of show everybody, hey, you know, here's what we've all agreed upon, but even that has a list of here's the things that we you're not gonna do, here's the rules.
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So, so yeah, works aren't a prerequisite, but they're a result of it.
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What works are a result of faith?
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Yeah, it's really interesting to think about even just the specific uh decision that was made by the church, right?
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This issue of food offered to idols, uh in part because Paul later says, hey, some people abstain, others eat, up to you in your own conscience, but like you should be willing to give up something for the sake of another person's faith and stuff like that.
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So even like there is this later decision that's like, let's not pay attention to that, you know, specifically anymore.
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But so as we think about the application for us, like the big thing that I I want to be really careful of, I wanted to be really careful of is to not have people think, well, it doesn't matter what I do, because it does.
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And the reason being, God wants us to experience life.
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And and so we can try to do things on our own, but inevitably that leads to death.
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But living in light of who God is and all that he's instructed to us, that's where life is found.
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And so thinking specifically about the results of our faith and what that looks like, I don't know that it's as I think about it, I don't think like ceremonial sort of stuff, but it is the works of the fruit of the spirit.
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Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, kindness, self-control.
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Um, it is the ethical things that Jesus talked about.
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You know, when he said uh, you know, you've heard it said don't murder, but I tell you don't even hate your brother if you do, you've committed murder in your heart.
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So it's this character transformation.
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Um so it's not just right doing the right things, but it is the transformation that comes from our hearts.
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So it's the the character transformation that leads to a different way of life, a life of humility, a life of service, um, a life of love for others.
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I mean, Jesus said, You will all men will know you're my disciples if you love one another.
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So it's that too.
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Um, so it's not it's not just showing up at church, it's not just giving, it's not just reading your Bible or like all of those things are important, but it's why they're important, it's not the what, you know, and and and so it is the it's more the the character transformation piece um that grows out of a life of faith.
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And those things, you know, like I said, it's not a prerequisite for faith.
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So it's not get yourself straightened up and then you can come to faith.
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It's come to Jesus with all the mess and let him put the pieces back together and bring about the transformation.
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Yeah.
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No, I love how you're you know mentioned character, and I think that's a key part to what Christ has done with us.
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You know, God is not expecting us just to have this list of rules, and and I think that's the we way we treat the Bible.
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We come to it, we're trying to figure out what does the Bible say about this, this, and this, this.
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Well, some of the things we're asking, you know, are foreign to the Bible.
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It didn't even exist back then.
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But whenever we start talking about
character, or we start talking about righteousness, or we start talking about loving God well, loving others, we start talking about looking back to God's design for humanity.
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You know, what does it mean to be an image bearer?
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What does it mean to rule underneath God's rule?
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Um, and you start working on, I think you remember you saying this in a sermon a long time ago, that the longer we sit with God's word, the more it just begins to naturally shape us.
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And so I think instead of trying to look through, okay, here's the situation, what does the Bible say about it?
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I think we look through, okay, what does God call me to be as I go into this situation?
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It's kind of reversing it.
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And that's um, I think that's part of how we begin to recognize works aren't the thing that gets us there.
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Works are the outcome of what God's done in us.
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And so the more we dwell and remain in God, the more that we um are in his word, the more we begin to see the world like he sees it, to see ourselves like he sees us, to understand our brokenness, you know, back to the beginning of this, understand our the grace we've been given.
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That process of renewing our mind, transforming us begins to equip us for um a whole bunch of applications.
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You know, you started this message saying, What's the application here?
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There's a lot of applications that you can pull from any scripture.
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Um, you know, there's one kind of meaning that's there, but the applications are kind of endless to the amount of situations you find yourself in.
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But these stories shape us, these stories remind us this isn't, you know, it's what you're getting at.
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We are undeserved recipients of what God has done.
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Um, this is not our works.
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And so it we don't ever earn, no matter how early we get to the vineyard, we don't ever earn what God's doing.
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And then understanding that, um, that character-forming truth, it begins to shape us into what we move into.
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And so, yeah, Paul in this next part of Acts is gonna give some very specific kind of things that, you know, I don't think any of us are, you know, wrestling with what does it say in um the end of 15, you know, uh the list of stuff uh of abstaining from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that's been strangled.
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Like I don't know if you've struggled with things that have been strangled lately.
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I've never even thought about it.
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Never even thought about it, right?
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Um, but for them, that was the outworking in this moment because they're going into these Jewish communities.
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You know, he's going on mission to check.
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And so these are uh why these things?
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Well, these are very Jewish things that will probably be obstacles, stumbling blocks.
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So Romans is gonna talk about this.
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And so, yeah, the outworking of the application is specific to the context that God is moving Paul and Silas into later.
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Um, and that's what the letter he has.
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But for us, it may be different.
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Uh, but it's understanding that character, those core truths, and walking into that.
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Great.
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Well, any more kind of this thoughts overall, kind of close up um, kind of the behind the scenes from this week's message.
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Anything you want to add?
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You know, the only thing that I would say, again, going back to the sh sort of the structure of the message as a whole, the importance of knowing biblical stories.
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Um, and I just encourage that for people that maybe aren't as familiar with the Bible, maybe haven't read the Bible as much.
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Um because all of this the stories, the ones that I mentioned, um, the ones that I mentioned in the beginning, in the introduction to the message, like all of those stories, they really do shape us.
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They help us understand who God is and how God is at work and what God wants to do with us.
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And so, you know, that's just kind of a like a foundational thing for us as a church, is like hopefully everything that we do is built off of what God has said in his word.
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And so I want to make sure that I want to do everything that I can to encourage people to be in God's word on a regular basis, even though it many of the stories are super foreign to us because they're ancient stories written to ancient people, but like those stories are really significant and and and it's the way that God, you know, really shapes us and and helps us to know who he is.
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Which is exactly what happens in this week's story.
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That you've got these people that are looking back at the story of God, they're looking back to scripture, Amos, and they're saying, What was God doing then?
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What is he doing now?
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And they're connecting the dots and they're moving forward.
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So great word for us today.
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Well, thanks so much, uh Pastor Bill, for a great message and for um just uh serving the church well with that.
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And thanks again for listening today to the Table Talk Podcast.
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We hope you'll join us next week as we have another episode.
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And if you're not connected with the Table Community Church, we'd love to invite you to check us out on a Sunday at 9 or 10 30 a.m.
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here in North Forth Worth.
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And until then, we hope you have a great week.