Ryan and Amanda Moore: A Federal Lien, Seized Bank Accounts, and No Charges: täielik transkriptsioon

operating procedure. speaker-2: At any point during this period of time did you think stay on up to something? speaker-0: Not really. speaker-3: Did you think we should be worried? speaker-1: No, we not at that point, no. speaker-0: No, and the sale went through you know, 'cause yeah. I used to be a financial advisor for about ten years. I have an MBA. I'm not like the I'm not I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, right? So we structured every right now truck. speaker-3: Well cider truck, perhaps. speaker-0: But we structured our business in every legal conceivable way you could to do everything we wanted to do. speaker-2: Surrounded by lawyers. this is what I'm hearing too. you have lawyers, all the lawyers and the CPAs, all the professionals. speaker-0: Yeah, after we did it. 'Cause I thought I know what I'm doing, right? And so we structured all this stuff. And so fast forward we go th December twenty second rolls around. We have money from the sale of the farm. December twenty sixth we bought a house in Nashville. We bought a house in Nashville. speaker-1: We wanted to move closer to my family down in Asheville and so we bought a house down there. speaker-0: 'Cause we didn't know anything was going on. We're just gonna live our lives and move. So we bought a house to remodel. speaker-1: And then we we sell we go to sell our house in Michigan, we list it, we get a s an offer the day that it goes on the market. We start going through escrow, and all of a sudden the escrow company calls us and says, There is a lien on your house from the federal government. And speaker-3: Your real estate agent is like what? speaker-1: Yeah. And the and also the escrow lady was like they definitely know about this. Okay, so the government tells people No, no, no. They didn't tell us. No. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: So that's speaker-3: Yes. Yes. speaker-0: And and to be fair, right? Because people don't understand civil forfeiture. People don't understand any of the tricks that AUSAs have. So this is now this is twenty twenty three, February like twenty second, twenty first. This son of a bitch. He didn't actually seize our property. speaker-3: But it is pendants. speaker-0: He didn't put a Liz Pendants on. In Michigan, in Michigan, you can put an affidavit of lien, which is not a lien, which never has to be explored or entertained by a judge to hear any motion to remove it if you're using the MCR dot whatever the F it is, it never has to be explained to anybody. speaker-3: And so federal government put that on the property. speaker-0: So they never had so we could never we couldn't fight it. We couldn't ta say tell us why. Because it's nothing real, right? It's nothing real. It's I could put an affidavit line on your house right now. It doesn't mean shit. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: But it does cloud the title. speaker-2: So you can't sell your own. speaker-1: Well, we were told we could go through with the sale, but then the US marshals would show up at closing and take the proceeds. speaker-0: We're backing out. Nobody's put any money down. There's been no earnest money. There's been nothing, right? So that's so you know what? We're taking it off the mark. speaker-3: But to be clear, what that means is you were about to sell a house, you didn't know you're under investigation, and the federal government just says no you can't. speaker-0: No, no, no, they gave us an email that said the Moors may sell their house. speaker-3: But we're gonna hold them up. speaker-0: We're gonna hold the money. The US Marshals will show up and they will take the proceeds. speaker-3: And at that point, did they start telling you what? speaker-1: We had to retain several speaker-0: No. speaker-1: criminal attorneys before they would tell us anything that was going on with the case. Our civil attorney tried to meet with them and he said the the government said we won't talk to you. speaker-3: So talked about that process. most people who in your situation no run ins the law, you have no idea how to find a federal criminal defense attorney like we like we are. So how did you go about doing that? Is it just first name in the phone book, first name a friend gave you? What happened? speaker-0: This is 2023. speaker-1: Yeah, and we did have quite a relationship with a civil attorney from business transactions we had been through. speaker-0: And all the money we've paid. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: So we went to him. We were like, who should we hire as a criminal attorney? And they didn't have anyone at their firm. He had just retired. And so they gave us the name of the two most, you know, well known defense attorneys in Detroit that you want representing you. They've represented celebrities and all this. speaker-0: They've done they they they are the you can't get better than Brian and Wally. Okay. speaker-2: And we're talking about Detroit royalty here, right? Like and Okay. Yeah. speaker-1: So we met them and that's who we hired because we wanted to find answers and so speaker-0: Yeah, it w it's a strange process, right? speaker-2: Isn't it I find it to be really interesting and Alex and I have talked about this because you kind of like it's so strange. Like when you if you were to be diagnosed with a serious illness, you would probably talk to a couple of different lawyers. But in this scenario, for some reason, and it like it happened to my family, I think it happens to every family, you kind of just like ask somebody you know, hire very quickly whoever is recommended to you and move. Yeah, it's like you're not. speaker-1: Right. You want answers quickly and you can't get them unless you hire someone. speaker-2: And you feel like if you wait one more day, then the FBI is gonna show up at your house. speaker-3: no context for knowing is this person markedly different than this person? Right. you just have no speaker-0: Yelp. speaker-3: Yeah. Right. Right. And if there were, would you trust it? speaker-0: Right.

Well, super lawyers, right? Okay. So So speaker-3: So that is reliable as yell. Right. speaker-0: by this time, Jaffe, which was the firm in Detroit for a hundred years, represented the purple gang. I mean, they represented outlaws when they started, right? And everybody knew Jaffe, right? You want Jaffe. So that's who we went with with the civil stuff. And then they merged with Taft. And like, so now they're part of 1,500 lawyers. And every goddamn lawyer on the firm's webpage is a super lawyer or top five hundred. I know. you have fifteen hundred they're advertised fifteen hundred lawyers strong, but you go to everybody's individual page, they're all on super doesn't mean sh speaker-3: fifteen hundred Supermen. Yeah. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Here's how we decided on Chris. Chris is was made the papers for winning like ev for like the last five years, Chris has won the biggest civil lawsuits for like five, fifteen, twenty million dollars. And it makes the paper. And you're like, when we were referred to him, I'm like, hmm. Well, I don't see anybody else talking about fifteen, twenty million dollar wins, right? So then if the guy who works with Chris says Brian and Wally, and the only thing you can find is these celebrity notices, there's not people like us who well, I I hope someday we can make the paper and refute The horrible article written about me that was four pages long. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: But to get back to the attorneys, we should have done more due diligence because we should have trusted our gut when we met them and it speaker-0: Tell them tell about the first call with tell about the first speaker-1: We we hire these two attorneys, they go in and meet with the government and that we're like on the edge of our seats waiting for a phone call, yeah. And so finally one of them calls us back at the end of the day and he was like, Ryan, when I have something to tell you, I will call you. You do not need to call me. Wow. And that should have been a red flag, like a major red flag to us that they were not the right attorneys for us. speaker-3: Yeah, it's not the approach you want. speaker-0: Like I'm I we were both in financial services, customer centric, right? Me, speaker-3: Yeah. speaker-0: I give you advice, but you don't own me. Yeah. So I don't think I own somebody else for their professional services. But but at seven fifty an hour, if I leave a message for you that I'd like you to call me back to tell me what happened at the nine thirty morning and you call me back with my wife on the phone and it's three o'clock in the afternoon and treat us like that, yeah. We should have speaker-1: We should have. speaker-2: But it's hard because you're in you're in process. And you feel like if you switch it can disrupt everything. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: So we rode that horse. speaker-3: And so did you learn that day, hey, they're looking at you for federal crimes? Yes. And what was your first reaction to that? speaker-1:

That they just they don't understand the situation. We Yeah speaker-3: they can't be possibly believe speaker-1: I was like we can just we can send them some of our business paperwork and Ryan is incredible at documenting everything and keeping track and doing things the right way. Yeah. I was like, we just need to send them some of our documents and misunderstanding. speaker-3: Clear it all. speaker-0: problem. speaker-3: And then how many years ago was that? speaker-0: That was that was February of twenty twenty three. speaker-3: So three and a half years ago. speaker-2: Right? No, and my husband speaker-3: Exactly atmosphere. speaker-1: It's the same story. speaker-2: had the same reaction. He's like, I'll just I'll I can clear this up. I don't know what is going on over there, but if I just explain the facts to them, we'll be fine. speaker-0: To your point though, what we've found out in this process now over the last seven months is, and I'm I'm I'm gonna w I'm I'm gonna walk the line here, but someone, I'm not saying it was Stan Dixon, but someone in January of 2021 filed a report with the local FBI office. In April 27th of 2021, the FBI opened its official investigation into us. Who could listen, I've Stan called his lawyers, lawyer What who cares? I I don't know, right? The AUSA asked Chris at after our reverse proffer, he's like, Well, why do you think this investigation's happening? And Chris is like, We all know why it's happening. Stan came to you, he's like, Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, you're right, which is speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: I mean, what do you want me to leave with, right? speaker-2: Well let's talk about that, the reverse proffer. Because okay, so you're under you're under investigation. The lawyers talked to the FBI in that first conversation they just spoke or that was the reverse proffer? No. They speaker-1: No, they just spoke. speaker-2: just spoke. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: So how did you get to a reverse proffer and share what that means for those lucky souls that haven't been through that process? speaker-1: So it was quite a few it was two years later that we got to a reverse profit. speaker-2: Two years. speaker-1: Two years. And before that, you know, they used the civil f civil forfeiture process to take our bank accounts and speaker-2: So they did that okay, so they have the speaker-3: You got your house, got your bank accounts. speaker-1: and they were they were, you know, fishing around, sending out a lot of subpoenas to a lot of different people. So and one of our s criminal attorneys told us that's what they do. They try to bankrupt you so that you accept a plea. speaker-0: Well that's what the AEOSA told Wally and Brian. He's like, Your clients will be bankrupt in a matter of months and then you'll be ready to deal with me. speaker-3: And I hope that prosecutor at some point comes to Jesus and whatever his religious beliefs may be, because that's just the sort of shit that is so unethical and so ridiculously like abusive. speaker-1: if you really have a good case, why would you need to bankrupt us in the process? speaker-2: Right. speaker-0: I know. Threatened every one of my attorneys. I was like, listen, motherfucker. Pick a date. I have you we've never FaceTime, but if you FaceTime me, my office is in our basement, which is unfinished. It's a rental home. Behind us, my background is I think it's thirty-two boxes of Big Red Orchard, Conlin Abu, all of our business records, every single goddamn receipt down to like buying caramel for the caramel apples. Yeah. Yeah. And I have threatened every lawyer, pick a date. Tell Partica, I'm driving up, I'm going to the corner, I'm gonna be right across Lafayette I Coney Island, and I will walk those boxes up to his office and I will sit there for as long as he wants, right? I will I I will spend days taking him through every single receipt, every single I mean emails. I have I have sixty-five gigabytes of twenty years worth of emails and attachments. speaker-3: I think it's interesting that we we we talked in another episode about how important it is to understand what the other side is thinking, what the other side side is doing, why they're doing what they're doing, right? And and I think sometimes people and look, I worked at the US attorney's office, I have a lot of friends, many of whom work here now at the firm, who are former prosecutors, they're really good prosecutors. There are also some idiots who are assistant US attorneys and who are in that office who aren't that bright. Who aren't that nice. and you know, if somebody gets to them and says, Hey, this guy did a bad thing, and they just have no ability or curiosity to actually care what the answer is. And I think people don't realize, the public doesn't realize, if that's who you've got kind of looking at you, that's about as bad of a situation as you can get. Right. Because one, he's gotta understand what those records say. He's got to give enough of a damn to look through them. Yeah. And not just take the word of whichever, you know. person who he knows and trusts and says, hey, this is a bad guy. And and I think, if once they say Ryan's a bad guy, then with some prosecutors, you don't get another shot. And and it's we don't talk a lot about it. We don't like admit that like there is a scale and a spectrum of good and bad prosecutors. But when you get the dumb meat mean ones, like that's the worst. I'd much rather have a smart, noble-minded kind of G-man who shows up and you know cares about his job and wants to do the right thing and'll work really hard. Because my client's innocent, well then he'll work really hard to figure that out. Yeah. what you're describing is unfortunately I think what people don't understand also happens, which is the dumb mean folks. speaker-1: Well and I think aside from the prosecutor, it was the FB. speaker-3: Yeah. that's a hundred percent. Same goes for both. speaker-1: That's the process.

speaker-0: You guys have talked about this a few times, right? The system is the problem. Mm-hmm. And it's it's it's systemic. It's been the it's been manipulated over time to encourage idiots and bad play. speaker-2: Yes. speaker-3: You lacked speaker-0: Whether it's cases cleared, assets seized, right? It doesn't matter. And, you know, soul on the r saw on the road to Damascus, you saw the light. Great. The firm we hired with Jahan Williams, right? Flannery George Alice. It's made up entirely in thirteen locations across the country of former AUSAs who have seen the light, right? Which is kinda like was attractive to Jahan, right? Of course. Like 'cause I'll take a convert. I don't care, right? Yeah. But I'm also of the mind that, you know, you can say A cab, right? But that doesn't mean they all are. Right. It's a system, right? It's just the bad ones rise front. speaker-3: Well, because if you're if you're really good at your job and you eventually leave, that's what a lot of folks do. the people who stay are really two categories true believers or folks who don't have any other options. And when that equation becomes it's a lot more the folks who don't have options than the true believers, that's a problem. And the true believers can be problems too, because sometimes that true belief that they're doing the right thing blinds them to some really obvious like realities about the world. But I'd much rather have a true believer who's honest and willing to look at a situation than the folks who are just there because I think they can get a job somewhere else. speaker-2: I the other thing too, the AUSAs, the FBI agents, they are essentially tasked with becoming experts in these myriad businesses and industries. And th they aren't. And so they can't possibly understand like how the process works, what is going on. I also think which we haven't touched on, which is a separate issue though, is around kind of motivation. So if we think about the fact that most people leave, most prosecutors leave the office and go into private practice, they will need to build a client roster. And when you have say I was to go in and refer someone for a crime, I don't know that the FBI would listen to me or the prosecutors would listen to me. But I know that if I was a billionaire work speaker-3: With a lot of work to do. speaker-2: to do could be influential. speaker-0: Well, and it's not even him being a billionaire. And you guys talked about this somewhere else and you said it a few times, right? Money money's great. Lots of money, that's also great. It's not that though. Stan owns a bank, sits on the board of construction companies that do all the road work in Michigan, right? I mean, we are talking about pure unadulterated power. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: It's not just money, right? What can he do for you that might not be bribery, that might not do something, but like you do a favor for Stan, Stan's gonna do a favor for you, right? I mean, that's the world that Stan operates in, right? Because you need money, he can do make that happen. speaker-3: And that's I it's I I don't know if there's anything wrong with that idea, right? you do good things for people, they h they help you, that th that idea. But I do think people don't understand the ways that can show up in negative circumstances like you guys face. speaker-2: And the system should not allow it to. And that is where the system is broken because there should be protections within the system. speaker-0: Well speaker-3: Other piece, I guess, I think maybe listeners would know this, but if you're a district attorney in a state somewhere and there's a crime, somebody gets murdered, you have to investigate that crime and if you catch somebody, you prosecute them. Assistant US attorneys don't have to take a single case. The federal government has sort of supplemental authority to come over the top and they see what's interesting. And the abuse of that question of what's sort of sufficiently h federal interest, I think people don't realize that, you know, because they have nothing they have to do. The choice about what they should do becomes really political or it becomes really sort of targeting or, you know, politiciz because it's a system that is not just we're just taking the cases that come in. It's like give me the next arrest off the sheet. That's not it at all. speaker-0: And that's the thing that was scary for us, right? Because every again, this this took years, right? not twelve like Rick Renzi, but I mean, we're talking years, months on in our life, right? And so our guys, whether it was Wally and Brian or Jahan and our investigator Carol, were meeting with these guys. I'm not gonna say like every week, but a lot fairly regularly. I am turning over hundreds of spreadsheets and receipts and bank statements and and putting together things. And every time it wasn't enough. And the meeting would end with, Well, if Ryan doesn't make a decision or we don't see something soon, we're just gonna indict you. And I'm like, How fast do I have to move? What else do you just and that's why I kept saying, I I will drive up there. What do you you're not you're not telling me what you need to go away. speaker-3: Well, it's the proving the negative problem. That's the it's the how do we prove that there aren't aliens? speaker-2: Or unicorns. speaker-3: Or unicorns. That may be a better example, 'cause there may be aliens. We'll stick with the unicorns. You know, the prosecutor says, I'm gonna indict you if you can't prove that there aren't unicorns. Right. And if you have something on the other side who's not reasonable, I mean there's nothing you can do about it. They're gonna say, Well, gosh, I think they're unicorns, so they're gonna indict So they speaker-2: They they have the lien on your house, they've seized your assets, fired speaker-0: We got fired by our attorneys. speaker-2: by your attorneys, you and they're f the grand jury fishing the

subpoenas. It's also something to note because it disrupts all of your relationship. speaker-1: We were doing renovations on the house that we had bought in Asheville and the financing company got a subpoena. And so they pulled that line of credit right away and we had to sell that house. Yeah, speaker-0: A week of getting it, yeah. speaker-1: what it was down to the studs. So speaker-2: And that's your business too, Amanda, right? that's what you do. speaker-1: Yeah, and that so it speaker-0: She designed it. speaker-1: was just an investigation. Yeah, we had not been accused of any I speaker-0: the blast zone, as I think you guys call it, right? We moved to Asheville to be close to family. Her family, her aunt and her uncle, he is a contractor who does like all these like historical things. I mean, he's amazing, right? So who did we hire to do our house? Her uncle, of course. What was the scope of the project? Not small. Our money gets seized, they're not gonna give us any more of our draw. speaker-3: He can't get paid. speaker-1: Business gets you know takes a speaker-0: 'Cause that was supposed to be a year job for speaker-3: And he's paid the contractors, he's got subs, he's doing the whole thing. So talk about the, if you're if you're open to it, the the lawyer firing part. Because people don't often the relationship between lawyer and client, I think, depicted one way in the media, and just, you know, what we see on TV, it can often be contentious. it can often be the most important relationship as you go through this. So how did that first sort of you get from the lawyers you had at the beginning to the lawyers you liked better at the end? How how did that happen? speaker-1: So we had our first two attorneys for almost two years, year and a half. speaker-0: Yeah, twenty, yeah. speaker-1: And then once our bank accounts got seized and we had no cash. speaker-0: I was driving I was driving back from Detroit. speaker-1: Yeah. One of them fired us. It was speaker-3: Because of money. Yeah. speaker-1: like I don't know how you're gonna pay this bill, so we have to fire you. And the other one kept us as clients for a few more months. No was it a few more weeks? speaker-0: A few more weeks. A few more weeks. speaker-1: Yeah, and then fired us. And so we were like, my gosh, what are we gonna do? And that's when we started reaching. I found your attorneys that you had used and called one of them and we were like, Can you help us refer to somebody that can help us? Yeah. And we ended up finding a criminal attorney that was wonderful and such a different approach. and that was a fantastic speaker-3: So it was a blessing. speaker-1: Yes. I wish we had fired them earlier. speaker-3: Yeah, I think people don't I think so many people come to us at Litzen after their first or second attorney. I mean, you know, it's like that you know, this one's gone bad, that one's go bad, they they get to us finally. And I think so I see a lot of how relationships can

go bad between attorneys and clients. And I I think that defendants and targets don't recognize the amount of agency they actually do have. I think you feel like I've, this guy I'm trusting with my life. So it's like, it's almost as if I use the medical analogy all the time. You're in surgery and you don't want to tell the surgeon to maybe switch out, get somebody new, because you're half open and vulnerable. But if you don't, you got this really bad surgeon in the room, right? And I think that it's so hard for people, especially in that time of crisis, to be like, hey, I need to advocate for myself and what you're doing, I really don't like. but it's so important because bunch once you got good counselor, like it's Total breath of fresh air. Totally It's not even gonna perfect because the situation's not perfect. But having a different person standing beside you who you trust is just a different ballgame. speaker-1: Yeah, but it is so difficult to make that choice because you feel like you've spent so much money and already invested in like getting this attorney up to speed and it's like, gosh, I can't do that all over again But then it didn't cost nearly as much to get the right person up to speed as it did, you know? So speaker-2: How did you like when you were going in at this moment in time, they've seized your money, the blast radius widens. Like, did you ever feel as if there wasn't any hope? No. speaker-0: no. No. Mm mm. I'm unbeatable. You can do whatever you want. speaker-1: We planned on getting indicted, going to trial. We would win this. Yeah. speaker-0: I and listen, back in we told you about the November like I started looking up stuff and I'm like on the internet, I'm like ninety eight percent fuck it, we'll be in the two, right? Yeah. speaker-3: We know that we know that story. speaker-2: When when when When my he laughs because when my husband got a target letter, I called Alex and I was like, Well what are the chances he isn't indicted after he got this target letter? And Alex thought a beak of three percent and I was like, All right, there's a chance. speaker-3: You know what? Can we made that three percent happen? Yeah. speaker-0: And the thing is, we told that to Wally and Bryan, we told that to Chris, we told that to Jahan. And, God love attorneys, right? we live in a world of ish. My Chris jokes with us all the time. He's been a 38-year partner at Taft and you know, every answer, and I'm sure you live with this is it depends. Yeah. It depends. So we live in a world of it depends. But I tell them, I don't care what it depends, we're not. Losing. We just won a five million dollar covert relief award, which is like one in what? speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: A billion? We're not losing. You want you wanna take our shit? You wanna threaten me? Keep coming. Keep coming. speaker-3: I think some people hear that and that's that's just so crazy view to take. But having seen people who succeed in navigating through this sort of maze,

you have to have that sort of approach that like, look, we are undeterred, we are undaunted. I if you don't, it's gonna beat you down. It's gonna beat you down. speaker-2: Well, I also think I I hearing both of you, and I'm an entrepreneur, my husband's an entrepreneur, and Alex is an entrepreneur too, which is I think one of the reasons his lawyering is different and creative. Because to be an entrepreneur, you have to have just like I mean, you have to be delusional. A little speaker-1: It's a little bit of a creepy. speaker-2: bit delusional in the belief in what you can do. Yeah. Or you wouldn't begin. And so in this case speaker-3: You have to be optimistic. Yeah. And this is a whole process that is meant to kill your optimism. speaker-0: Totally. speaker-3: And what's I mean, think again to bring sort of the listeners into this, like you're years into this, you don't know when it's going to end. You don't know if the next day they're gonna say we're gonna charge you. And they've done everything they can to deprive you of your resources and your community. Right. did it help the two of you that well, did it strengthen or make the relationship between the two of you harder. 'Cause I've seen it go b both ways for couples. speaker-1: I think it strengthened our relationship. Absolutely. speaker-0: Absolut. speaker-3: Same lifeboat. speaker-0: Yeah. Same lifeboat, right? speaker-1: I have absolute trust in whatever business things he did leading up to this. speaker-0: And I have listened to her counsel since before this all started, right? When she put me through a psychological exam at Northwestern and like, this is who you are. Why aren't you doing it? And I was like, so then I started doing it. Yeah. And things speaker-1: I was his business coach. speaker-3: study, I would I would venture a guess that the support, either spousal or familial, is like a deciding factor in people who navigate this successfully. It is so and Amy is a gold star example of that. But it's so important to have that support. P. G. Sittenfeld had said, when he told his wife he was getting indicted, all she said was for better or for worse. You know, just no question, no hesitation. No like, what do you mean, or how this is gonna affect me? and that's a lot harder to do than it is to say. so com massive kudos to the two of you for pulling that off. speaker-0: I spent hours in the basement reading US codes. I spent a whole weekend reading the 400 pages of the DOJ manual of like speaker-3: I'm sorry. Yeah. speaker-0: and I'm like, well, it says right here, you're not supposed to be proceed the case if you don't believe. And I'm telling her this, and I'm writing position papers to our attorney who's, you know, I'm paying her to read them and she'd get mad about why you're paying Jahan to read this. It's 49 pages of bullshit. It's you talking to Chad GPT or Claude. I'm like, but I'm I'm taking the thing and then I'm going to their website at the DOJ and I'm reading this. This is I know it's not a plain reading, it's not a layman's reading, 'cause I'm not in that position where I don't understand any of this. But she's like, Okay, we'll send it off. Like, let's see what Jahan says. And then Jahan says, Well it all depends. And then I said speaker-1: It all depends. speaker-2: I do think but I d I do think, this is not all for nothing. I think people who go through this process and don't dive in and get very involved, like they can't make it. speaker-3: You got to. And to be clear, so at the beginning did they say, Ryan, we were coming after you? And at what point did they say, by the way, Amanda, we're gonna indict you too? Like how did that dynamic speaker-0: The company is set up as a C Corp. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-3: The shareholders. speaker-0: So there's shareholders. Yep. Amanda has 51%. At the end of the day, it didn't matter that we were protected through a C Corp, even though I was the manager and signing the thing, right? So even though it says like the person signing isn't really on the hook, right? they decided to say, well, Amanda. So they did two things. We don't believe the corporate records you have supplied that shows Ryan selling Amanda an extra 1% of his to be $51.49. We think that's a lie. speaker-2: Just because. speaker-3: Just because. We don't speaker-1: Just 'cause it works for their narrative. Right. speaker-3: have any documents that suggest that, but that's how I woke up to you. speaker-0: So anyways, and he then it was that after that meeting where we provided that, they said, Well, Amanda's a fifty one percent majority owner if we believe that, so we'll just go after her too. And I looked at her and I said, What do you want to do? speaker-3: What was your answer to that? speaker-1: well I said we are absolutely not go well, that was when we were talking about what we would offer. speaker-0: Right. We did we did have a conversation about what we would offer. speaker-1: And so we were like, we would pay back a certain amount of money, but there is under no circumstances are we s doing anything where we have to say that we committed fraud. Because we absolutely did not. speaker-2: And I think it's important to know that fraud requires intent. speaker-3: You speaker-0: Requires four things. speaker-3: can't fumble. You can't tumble your way into fraud. speaker-1: Yeah. No, and we we checked with our attorney before we made the decisions. We checked with an accountant on the numbers that we used. It doesn't matter. speaker-0: Doesn't matter. speaker-2: And I think everybody thinks they'll be protected. I talked to my CPA, I talked to my attorney. But sometimes if if the government wants to build a case against you, they're kind of like, We'll just we'll just forget about that or like put put it off to the side or didn't really matter, you didn't give them enough information. Like just tear it all down. speaker-0: Yeah, I think if we had had a stronger AUSA still as dumb, but stronger

constitutionally, I would have been indicted. speaker-2: Huh. Wow. Right? Yeah. speaker-0: But I I sat across from this guy for an hour and forty three minutes and the FBI agent while they went through their little bullshit PowerPoint. speaker-1: The reverse process properly. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Again. That happened in February of this year. Okay. speaker-3: So go back, it's you've been under investigation now for over two years. The government is basically holding all your money, has said you can't sell your home, you've got no access to the bank accounts, and we think you've done something, but we're not confident enough to charge you. We're just hoping at some point you just sort of wave the white flag. And so at this point, to kind of give context to listeners, you are asked to come in to sit down and watch a PowerPoint. Where the prosecutors are going to go through their greatest hits of all the strong evidence they think they have to prove that you are a felon. speaker-0: Correct. speaker-2: Would you like yeah pause for a minute though because sometimes I think these things like people who have not gone through this system, if you sit there and you're like, So they wanna put you in prison so they give you a PowerPoint. Like it's it's true and it is as insane as it sounds. speaker-3: I think there could be really good skit hey, you're going to prison. Here is a picture of the prison. But it's not even a speaker-0: Good powerful. speaker-1: No. speaker-3: It's a government PowerPoint. speaker-2: There's no animation. No animation. Yeah. speaker-0: It's it's br it's awful. I mean listen, I I'm not the best public speaker, but I think I'm pretty good. She's trained people, I've trained people, we've all you know speaker-3: Would you've rather had a really sexy presenter be like and now on the next slide? speaker-1: But a little more pizza. speaker-2: Some background music. speaker-3: You're subject to twenty years in prison! speaker-0: Jush that thing up and we might have a conversation. But here's the problem. Early on, they sent Wally and Brian a first lawyers. speaker-3: Yeah. speaker-0: They sent Wally and Brian a twelve page where they are in the investigation. Yep. I'm trying not to use bad words here. speaker-2: Just got words. speaker-0: I can't because the FBI agent, I learned in the 80s growing up that if you want to work for the FBI, you have to have a J D or an accounting degree. That was like that. That was back in the 80s, that's what they said. Like if you want to be there, that's not the case anymore. The FBI agent who was assigned to us or came after us or whatever was a former Macomb County Sheriff who got into a training program with the FBI and now is pretending he works for goddamn JG Wentworth or some Ernst and Young. And he commingled the accounts to make his case. He commingled corporate, he commingled an LLC, he commingled personal, he commingled Amanda's accounts. I mean speaker-1: Yeah, good

speaker-0: So out of the five million dollars, just as an aside, because this just pisses me off so bad, out of the five million dollars that they tracked through all these accounts saying you misspent this and misspent that, Brent Nida, special agent Brent Nyda's big, big getcha, his big gooch to me, right? The last item on the spreadsheet was $66 at a Macomb County adult store. speaker-3: Well clearly that's fraud. speaker-0: Right. And I was like speaker-3: You're like, sir, I don't fuck out of here. You're right, that is fraud. That was not me. Right? So never been there. Don't know don't know the place. So speaker-0: So now I know what he's capable of. So then when we go to the reverse proffer, we had also in the meantime gotten a tracing speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-3: The money. Which speaker-0: Again? Okay. You can use all the icons from windows you want. you can use little buildings, little banks, little houses, little people, right? They've had my kids on there. They had their Ross, they had their IRAs, everything. But it was like arrow this, arrow that, going back, no numbers, because it it was it was drawn by a child. I I think my daughter would have drawn better by crayon, right? So now we have a second thing that we know this idiot AUSA is relying on, which is this twelve page report, which is counters itself all throughout the thing. It's just so stupid. Then we get this crayon drawing of money moving around, right? And so Going into that reverse proffer, this is my level of expectation. And he went even lower. speaker-2: god. speaker-0: So it's on a bigger screen than this. It's like on their 85-inch roll card thing. And he's done it. So on the left side is their affidavits for all their seizing stuff, all these court transcripts from the trials that we've gone through, right? And on the right is supposed to be the proof, right? For 94 minutes and I think it was sixty-four or fifty-four slides. Everything on the left that they were using as evidence, there was no proof, but what he did was he highlighted what was there and pulled it out and put over here. Like reading it twice was supposed to like instill feel speaker-3: Yeah, I think it's interesting because the FBI often feels like if you earn money and then you spend it, you've committed a crime. Yeah. I I think they're we represent J Todd and Julie Christly and we've we've did a podcast with them our first episode. But I remember so distinctly being blown away at how idiotic the idea was. At their trial they introduced the fact that they had through their business purchased Chick fil A. Yeah. Because clearly that meant that the business wasn't real. And I I was like, guys, we buy we pay for everybody's lunch every Friday. Like, that's not me eating that three hundred dollars of Uber Eats on the Friday, right? Yeah. But it but to the government just it's hey, look, that's a that's a personal expense, that's a corporate account, that's fraud. And you're just like, Do you guys have like, do you get out of the office? speaker-0: They don't know how it works. speaker-3: So what happened at this point is you sit here, you go through this, you remember how slides it was? Was it speaker-0: It was fifty it w it was an hour and a half and it was fifty four, sixty-four slides and Brent Nita is the one who gave the presentation. speaker-3: And the way this is supposed to work, again, I mean the way this is supposed to work is as prosecutor, if I were doing this, I'm saying to the other side, listen, if we go to trial, there's no way you win. Like we're going to win. The evidence here is overwhelming. I'm giving this as an opportunity to tell you, let's work out a deal, save me some time, save you some potential jail time. speaker-0: So Amanda didn't drive up with me because she was taking care of our two youngest children who at the time were eight and six. Well speaker-1: Just this year. speaker-0: that was before birthdays. Yeah. It was February. So she wasn't with me. And I will say this, Amanda stated very early on at some point, I am now on every phone call with any attorney you have. speaker-3: Smart. speaker-2: Sure. speaker-0: Because I'd be going off and she'd be like, You're not yelling at them. You have to l you have to s just slow down, speak clearly. And Jahan told me on the phone before I drove up with a man on the phone, okay, we're gonna do this. We're gonna go in, and if you say a word. speaker-3: We're getting you out of here. We're losing I'm stopping this car, I'm pulling over. speaker-0: We're leaving. Yeah. And so I sat there quietly 89 minutes. speaker-2: Was that really hard to sit quietly? speaker-0: Brutal. Brutal. Because it's all li I mean, yeah, we have proven lies. I mean, I've heard you guys say, right? I mean, proven lies in the affidavit. It's not true. These things never happened. All this stuff. But I'm listening to it again for like the millionth time, reading it on PowerPoint both sides. I'm biting the inside of my cheek. And I'm I'm I am just eyeball. I told Carol, our investigator. I'm just gonna sit there and I fuck this guy because fuck him. No, so I sat there and I just supposed to be speaker-3: Yeah. Not in a good way. speaker-0: I just looked at Brent. I didn't move for ninety minutes. I didn't sip water, I didn't sip coffee, I just stared at him for ninety minutes. And at the end of that, Partique goes, So Mr. Moore and puts up a slide and takes me through all their charges, what it could mean, and you know, you're a first time offender, so we can give you a discount. And here's what we're looking at. Twenty seven months and a five million dollar payback. But then here's the crazy thing. It was like a month later that Jahan was talking to Partica and they came back with what was it? speaker-1: So our attorney was talking to the AUSA. Yep. speaker-0: And came back with one point five in like fourteen months. And speaker-2: where's the one point five number from? Yeah, they're speaker-1:

No. speaker-2: just they're just like, okay. speaker-0: I call Cotaldo up and I'm I tell him this before I even go in the house to tell Amanda because you know Chris has been with us for seven, eight years, right? We've gone through negotiation after negotiation, sitting down with judges, mediation, all this stuff. So I I get 1.5 in 14 months. I call I call Chris up and I'm like, listen, I'm not a poker player. Okay. But if I'm the flop, you just pulled back over half your pot. speaker-3: Tells me something. speaker-0: Buck them, we're going forward. I go in and I tell her and I go, this is a sign of a a wimp. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Right? This ain't for real. That's why I said you can't beat me. Cause there's you don't speaker-1: You don't have anything. speaker-0: have anything. And no matter what you try to manufacture, and I listen, I've had judges exclude all sorts of things, right? But at some point, what is it? What is it? the moral arc of the universe is long and it bends towards justice. Yep. Right? I I must have said that speaker-3: How long after that reverse proper they tried to convince you falsely that they were going to indict you, did they finally give up? speaker-1: Well they kept saying so the reverse proffer was in February. February. And then the statute of limitations ended in May. speaker-3: So they're just kinda holding out for three more months, maybe they'll get you to the table, maybe they'll get you the table. Yeah. And then faced with push comes a shove, they they folded. speaker-0: They fold it on the criminal. speaker-3: As they should have. speaker-2: And where were you the moment that you found out? speaker-1: I don't remember that one. speaker-0: I was in the office in my basement and I set it up so I can have speakerphone through my computer while I'm typing. I saw it was Jahan. And I just said, Hold on, I took it off and I'm walking upstairs and she's like, Do you want the bad news or the good news? speaker-1: Well no, that was when it was done completely. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: when it was done completely. speaker-0: And so I'm walking upstairs to get her because I want, you know, her to hear what's happening and I can't find her. I'm like, well give me the bad news and so then I yell to her and I Jahan's on speaker, I sit in our pink chair in our dining room and I'm like, all right, well that's and then she gets to the good news part and I'm like, Amanda, get over here, right? And we are and she's like, What? You were shocked. speaker-1: yeah. 'Cause I've envisioned that moment where they just stop investigating and say they're gonna return everything a single speaker-0: Years, everything speaker-1: day. Yeah. Yeah. And then it finally happened and it was like, my god. speaker-0: It was yeah. It was a relief for you. I I'll be honest, I I don't think I'm relieved yet. speaker-3: Yeah. speaker-2: Why not? speaker-0: because, you know, we can go make more money. it sucks that they took it all and it got spent paying attorneys and all this, right? we're grateful for the time. We're grateful, you know. I've gotten to go to school, drop off my girls every day for four years, right? And pick up when we can. And we've still gone on trips and we've made things happen, right? I don't think I've gotten over because I It's not a game, right? It's not a game. So it's my life. I still haven't figured it out because I'm still like in battle mode, right? speaker-1: Yeah, this all just ended in vlog. speaker-3: It's it's all PTSD too, yeah. it's you're in this moment of transition. speaker-0: I'm not done. I'm not I'm I what do I want to do? I wanna go in and I wanna clear out the idiots, right? I wanna clean up the DOJ. I wanna get rid of the Jeromes who like are taking over and they're just goddamn fools, right? Who don't have the wherewithal to look at a case and say, why are we spent you spent money on this. speaker-2: And and it's and it's taxpayer money, right? this is this is we're we are funding the system. Huge. Ridiculous. Huge. Completely. speaker-3: I mean, was your reaction different? I mean, was it just relief and feeling like, okay, now we can turn the corner? speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause now we're able to sell our house in Michigan and like it it just feels like we can move forward in a way that we haven't been able to for the last four years. speaker-2: Do you ever worry someone told me once, like once the government puts you in their crosshairs, like they're just gonna keep you there? And we have seen people, you know, that probably have lived that out, but like do you ever worry that they'll come back? speaker-3: 'Cause they I'm speaker-0: She doesn't want me to say names, right? every time I've said a name, she's like, I can feel her cringe, right? I'm a baby. I was born and raised a documentary filmmaker, a journalist, right? I know what the line between listen, anybody can sue anybody. So if you want to come after me for slander or libel, bring it. I do not threaten me with a good time. Do not threaten me with a good time. speaker-2: You know that I'm a believer in naming I'm a believer in naming all names. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: But speaker-0: Are they really gonna come after us for something like that? The statute of limitations is passed. every day that goes by, this chances of them finding something new lessen, but it also makes us think, well, what's our next move? What's our next business? What are we gonna do, right? speaker-3: Once you've been falsely accused, you realize that the line that that it doesn't actually matter whether you've done something wrong. Right. Yeah. It's just be in the wrong place the wrong time or the wrong person wants you in trouble. And that's I mean, that's a scary thing to realize. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Amanda's done a great job, probably better than me, right? And I thank God every day for Amanda building our home, building her house, doing her thing. And I think for the most

part, feel free to disagree, but our children have been blissfully unaware or unaffected by this. speaker-3: What do you want them and did you think there was times during the middle of this where you're like, I know this obviously decision is going to affect the entire family, especially my children? What did you want them when they're older to know about you in the process? speaker-1: I think I just wanted them to know that we went through this incredibly difficult thing that changed our life dramatically, but they never felt it. Yeah. They never knew it was going on because we were able to absorb it all, you know. speaker-3: Well bigger than that, what did they want you what would you want them to know when they're old enough to understand about how you did it? speaker-1: I think I want them to know that this really ugly thing was happening to us, but we chose to find the beauty in all of it and to like really sink into our life with them. as opposed to getting angry and I mean we certainly had to fight. But speaker-3: you didn't give in to despair though, is the idea. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: That's a really hard thing to not give into. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: And I mean and your kids are really lucky that you didn't. And I think you should give yourself a lot of credit for it. speaker-1: I think that will always be my biggest, you know, flex in life is just that they didn't ever feel any of that. Yeah. At least I don't think they did. All speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-3: They'll tell you when they're oldest, don't you? speaker-1: right. speaker-0: I want to know it, right? I'm trying to write this book. It's proving very difficult. but I want them to know that, right? You can be unbeatable. You can bend reality to your will. You just have to believe it, right? And I try to instill that in them all the time. Like when they say, I can't do this, yeah, you can't, you can do this. Try it, try it, you know. And if they can take that, right, they're they're gonna be fine. speaker-3: And you've showed them look the th I was a three percent who was told I was a target and didn't get indicted, right? You know, I you can you can win with against those odds. Yeah. if you went back to the beginning, if you had the chance to go back to yourselves when you found out about that lien you were selling the house, when you got that grand jury subpoena, what would this version of you tell that earlier version of you? What advice would you give her or him? speaker-1: Well, number one, I would tell them to take some cash out of the bank and keep it in a safe. I guess that's helpful. 'Cause you don't know when they're gonna seize your accounts, but they probably will. but I think also just to trust your intuition. And if something feels off, whether it's with your attorney or somebody else, figure out what that is and try to fix it sooner rather than later. speaker-3: Don't ignore the red flags. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-3: Ryan, what about you? speaker-0: we talked about this earlier too. It's kind of funny because I started telling her and she looked at me, I'm like, I I grew up in Detroit and in the wall of my bedroom for like ten years was a little picture of Winston Churchill that my dad had given me, I don't know, like must have been nine or ten, right? But it was never, never, never, never, never, never, never give up. Right. And I think that's why I don't have a fight or flight response. I only have a fight, because I grew up looking at that every morning, right? And I would just tell myself, keep remembering that, right? you are the man in the arena, right? Yeah. Nothing can beat you but yourself. speaker-2: That's beautiful. speaker-3: I'm so grateful you guys decided to share your story. a lovely time talking to you and I'm very excited that you can now kind of turn to the rest of rest of your life and put this behind you. speaker-0: Excited. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-3: Right. Absolutely. Thank you. This is the Target Podcast. Every week we're gonna sit down with someone who's been in the crosshairs of an investigation, sometimes federal, sometimes state. People have been indicted, exonerated in some cases, some who've been pardoned, some who've been convicted, and some who've been acquitted. speaker-2: This isn't about guilt or innocence. It's about what they wish they'd known on day one. speaker-3: Every single one of the people we're going to talk to has a day one story. That's because most people don't understand how this system works. speaker-2: Until they're standing inside of it.