TRANSKRIBEERI 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.520
Welcome to the Self-Cherapist Therapist.
00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:14.320
I'm Lorraine Moorhead, and this is a Therapist to Therapist podcast for mental health professionals who want practical, evidence-based skills they can actually use in session.
00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:28.320
Each week I'm joined by leading experts in the field as we talk interventions, modalities, client populations, clinical supervision, and sustainable self-care, the kind that helps you do meaningful work without burning out.
00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:36.719
If you're a therapist, counselor, social worker, psychologist, or graduate student looking for real continuing education, you're in the right place.
00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.439
Welcome back to Self-Care a Pist Therapist Podcast.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:45.520
Today we're welcoming guest Dr.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.039
Lisa Levine to talk all about compulsive reasoning.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:58.000
Just to get us started, how did you begin learning all about this and what has your trajectory with treating clients been like?
00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:59.119
Oh, sure.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:04.400
So I started working as an OCD specialist about 23 years ago.
00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:20.000
I was very blessed to have a wonderful mentor and teacher and boss, Charlie Mansueto, who kind of really taught me everything I needed to know and helped me along the way.
00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:29.760
I've had the privilege to treat many, many people with OCD, oftentimes pretty severe.
00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:42.000
I had noticed there was a problem happening with some clients who were doing well, external exposures, overt exposures, but were um were still stuck.
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:47.040
One had just come back from a residential OCD treatment center.
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:57.120
And she was saying, you know, she she achieved a lot, but no one had ever been able to help her learn how to stop compulsive reasoning or compulsive rumination.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:57.840
And she did.
00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:11.919
And um and around that same time I had another uh a new client who had come from um the West Coast and had had what seemed like really good treatment to me uh so far, but he really hadn't made any progress.
00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:39.520
And um as time went on with working with him, I saw that what what had happened was he did all these creative exposures with his previous therapist, but he had been compulsively reasoning or ruminating during the exposures, after the exposures, so so true response prevention was not actually happening, and he wasn't he wasn't benefiting um from the hard work that he was doing.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:58.479
In situations where you know there are overt um external convulsions, this is an issue, as well as for a lot of people um who don't have uh external compulsions, it's all or mostly mental compulsions um going on in in their head.
00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:02.319
We know that trying not to think about it doesn't work.
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.360
Um there's mindfulness, which is which is great.
00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:18.639
My boss had for many uh years, he had always talked to us about something called dead man's rule, which is this idea that you ask someone to do something rather than asking them not to do something.
00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:19.360
Yeah.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:24.879
Because a dead man cannot do something better than any live person can.
00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:35.199
So I was very much used to thinking in those along those lines, and what could we do according, you know, that that could help with this?
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:49.759
Um, and so that's really where where it came from, um, non-engagement responses, uh kind of an active uh strategic way of intervening with um compulsive reasoning and compulsive rumination.
00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.759
Um and uh yeah, that's kind of how it started.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:04:10.800
And um I uh I I you know I sometimes I I think what did I do those first uh five or six I'm so glad that you mentioned the folks that don't necessarily have an OCD diagnosis and find themselves doing this as well.
00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:16.800
I think we could call a lot of my population uh folks that fall into that category.
00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:22.879
I work a lot with high achievers, and in a lot of ways, reasoning has gotten them so far.
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:27.680
They're, you know, they're really, they've really landed into a lot of success.
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:40.240
And I've I I told you this, and you just mentioned the article that you wrote, but I've had several clients send that to me over the years because they've stumbled on it and really resonated.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.959
So I'll link that in the show notes for anyone listening.
00:04:43.120 --> 00:05:01.839
But I thought that was really important to hear that you can see clients who uh are on a recovery path with their OCD fall into now this type of reasoning, and you see it with people that wouldn't be diagnosed with OCD or don't identify with those symptoms also.
00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:02.480
Absolutely.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:10.480
Generalized anxiety disorder, or even not not necessarily clinical disorder, but just um, you know, a worrier, an overthinker.
00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:11.120
Yeah.
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.439
Could you give a little more detail about what that overthinking looks like?
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:28.639
It's important to differentiate, you know, between um what I would call compulsive reasoning versus uh actual problem solving.
00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:32.560
The difference um is several things.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:38.560
I would say the the biggest uh red flags are desperation and urgency, right?
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:58.240
So if you have a feeling of desperation to get an answer, and there's also a feeling of urgency, like you need the answer, you need it right
Load full transcript
now, you need to know for sure you're vulnerable to potentially be compulsively reasoning.
00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:09.040
Now, that in and of itself, you know, not necessarily there are some very, you know, important, urgent types of situations where you you do need, you know, to think in that way.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:21.600
But uh in a situation that isn't particularly externally urgent, um uh it's a it's a good kind of rule of thumb.
00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:32.560
Um another thing to kind of look for is how much the person is thinking about it, how long they're spending thinking about it, are they coming to any answers?
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.199
Um, or are they never kind of reaching a conclusion?
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:52.800
Or if they are coming to answers, do those answers uh hold basically, or do they end up coming back to the reasoning uh when kind of doubt doubt creeps in and kind of start all over again?
00:06:53.439 --> 00:07:04.639
Uh I would say it there's a kind of a hamster wheel feeling to compulsive reasoning, um, where you're you're expending a lot of energy, but you're really not getting anywhere.
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:10.160
Um and you you want to get off the hamster wheel oftentimes.
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:15.439
Sometimes you can you can be desperate to get off the hamster wheel, uh, but you you can't.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.959
You you don't know how.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.879
Um so so those are kind of important distinctions.
00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:29.519
A lot of people say, but how do I know, you know, that this time I I don't need to be thinking about it right now.
00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:40.000
The truth of the matter is that when a person is feeling an intense sense of urgency and desperation, they're probably not doing their best thinking at that time anyway.
00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:51.839
So uh you kind of can't go wrong using non-engagement right now until you know I you know I'm I'm in a better place uh to deal with this, perhaps.
00:07:52.079 --> 00:08:04.639
Oftentimes what happens is uh a person never never comes back to it when the when the anxiety, the the urgency has subsided, it tells, yeah.
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:16.399
Good good framework, also good little disclaimer that it could be worth a shot even if you're not seeing the degrees of urgency that you would need.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:16.959
Yes.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:29.680
If it's a subject matter that you where you find your you feel like you're overthinking about it, you're coming back to it again and again, you just feel kind of stuck, there doesn't necessarily have to be a high degree of urgency.
00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:40.320
Um but generally there would be some urgency, which is one of the things that's pushing the person back to revisit it again and again, again.
00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:41.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:48.480
Um how do you differentiate between obsessing and maybe even intrusive thoughts?
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:52.159
Like in your mind, how do you uh separate those three things?
00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:53.919
That's a really good question.
00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.240
So different people have different uh ways of thinking about this.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:04.639
Some people would consider all intrusive thoughts um the same thing as obsessing.
00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:16.399
You can look at an intrusive thought as um anything that that you you know you really don't want to be thinking about, yet you you are.
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:43.840
It could be an image too, um, it could be um really could be anything, uh, an idea, um uh thoughts about this terrible thing's gonna happen, something that is ego dystonic, meaning it's not in line with your values, it doesn't feel like something that um you want to be doing uh or that is ultimately helpful.
00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:45.279
It's driven out of fear.
00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:47.600
You're doing it because you're afraid.
00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:59.279
While I think of an intrusive thought as more of like a one sentence or like I said, like an image or a word where an obsessing involves all of that.
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:12.559
Um but uh I think of it as more kind of like oh no, this bad thing, you know, this is gonna what if this happens, I need to do something about this.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.759
That's the the kind of obsessing part.
00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:32.159
And then the when it comes to compulsive reasoning, the the compulsive part is the trying to figure out a reason what to do uh with the fear, what to do about it, how to resolve it, trying to get some kind of an answer.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:47.519
So, so within the the whole kind of process of compulsive reasoning, there there are obsessions in there, but the whole process itself, with the it's like a back and forth mental ping-pong kind of thing, really.
00:10:47.919 --> 00:11:01.679
Um, the whole process is uh undertaken to strive to to grasp for an answer, um, which is which is you can think of it as a behavior, it's a mental behavior.
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:07.120
You're striving for something, you're trying to achieve something, and that's the compulsive part.
00:11:45.429 --> 00:11:45.750
Okay.
00:11:45.990 --> 00:11:47.589
Yeah, that's really helpful.
00:11:47.829 --> 00:11:59.029
So you might see pieces of all three at any given time, but the uh compulsive reasoning part is really like that next step of like, and what do I do about it?
00:11:59.110 --> 00:12:02.709
And how do I exact how do I solve for that?
00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:06.709
Okay, I loved um I the dead man's rule.
00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:08.149
I'm glad that you talked about that.
00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:11.750
In my mind, I was thinking it's also similar to like the toddler rule.
00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:12.709
Exactly.
00:12:13.029 --> 00:12:16.629
If we tell them not to do it, that's the first thing that's gonna happen.
00:12:17.350 --> 00:12:32.389
Really, and for for
for the for our folks that we're talking about that are so action-oriented and really want to take an action, do something, it it makes a lot of sense that it would it would just feel more useful.
00:12:32.709 --> 00:12:34.629
And uh oftentimes more doable.
00:12:34.949 --> 00:12:37.189
Um like how do I just not do anything?
00:12:37.429 --> 00:12:39.909
Um it's helpful with with with that.
00:12:40.069 --> 00:12:48.549
We do know that the more important something is to a person to be able to suppress, to not think about, the harder it is to suppress that.
00:12:48.789 --> 00:13:03.509
So when it's something really, really important to you, you know, uh you some if it's driving you crazy, I don't want to think about this during my, I don't know, my daughter's birthday or whatever, um, it's gonna be even harder.
00:13:03.669 --> 00:13:09.269
You know, the more important it is to a person to be able to not think about something, the harder it is.
00:13:09.589 --> 00:13:16.549
I think it might be helpful here to give a few examples of like maybe the common clusters.
00:13:16.709 --> 00:13:25.350
I think um for m the ones that I see most often would be health related, needing to take a health action.
00:13:25.589 --> 00:13:28.629
Maybe we'd call it the same umbrella, but sleep related.
00:13:28.949 --> 00:13:35.189
So not being able to sleep, but for keeping ourselves then wound up and concerned about the sleep.
00:13:35.589 --> 00:13:55.589
And then I'm also thinking uh for parents or new parents, kind of safety related about keeping about the kids, and maybe post-COVID, we saw an uptick of this too, thinking about how to engage the baby, but also keeping them safe and keeping them healthy.
00:13:55.750 --> 00:14:08.309
And then I think the last one dating and predicting how to show up in a relationship, in a new relationship, or wanting to date and kind of checking how did the date go?
00:14:08.469 --> 00:14:09.909
Did I perform okay?
00:14:10.149 --> 00:14:11.909
What is are they gonna call me?
00:14:12.069 --> 00:14:12.870
Should I call them?
00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:14.629
Right of thinking.
00:14:15.589 --> 00:14:26.629
For all of those situations, and I would say particularly health and and dating, no matter how long you spend thinking about, you're not gonna know.
00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:34.469
You can you can think about it for hours, and well, it might be positive because of this, but no, it's probably negative because of this.
00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:49.509
Without the information, you're just not gonna know, but you you can and you are going to suffer more and get uh deeper into that pit of anxiety by trying to know.
00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.429
There's just in that type of situation, there's there's missing information.
00:14:53.589 --> 00:14:59.350
Same thing with um with the dating situation, you're just not gonna know at that time.
00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:14.549
Um, and so rather than trying to know, which is impossible, if you keep ruminating about it, um, you might need something else.
00:15:14.709 --> 00:15:23.429
And so one of the non-engagement responses uh it's just uh affirmation of uh uncertainty, you know, agreeing that you don't know.
00:15:23.589 --> 00:15:26.949
I I don't know right now, and I'm not gonna know right now.
00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:34.149
I'm not going to waste my time and energy continuing to think about it.
00:15:34.389 --> 00:15:39.350
Um, but it's actually even worse than wasting your time uh for for many people.
00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:41.589
It it actually makes you more anxious.
00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:50.230
So it's an acknowledgement of the reality that I am not gonna know what it's gonna be with certainty right now.
00:15:50.469 --> 00:15:52.069
That's just the fact of the matter.
00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:59.829
And so the person's response, you know, and let's say the thought is, what if this sickness really is something to worry about?
00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.069
And I think I do need to go to the doctor.
00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:06.789
Well, right now, like in this moment, um, I'm not gonna know for sure.
00:16:06.949 --> 00:16:10.949
That might be a situation where the person does have to make a decision, right?
00:16:11.110 --> 00:16:19.990
And um, but in a case like that where a decision is needed, the person can give themselves like a period of time.
00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:33.189
I can think about this for 10 minutes, recognizing that outside of that 10 minutes or even like that five minutes, probably not longer than that, there's not any more information that's gonna come up.
00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:35.509
There's nothing new that's gonna happen.
00:16:35.669 --> 00:16:39.990
But another situation, let's say where you're waiting for test results, you are not gonna know.
00:16:40.230 --> 00:16:43.350
You have the thoughts like, well, what if it's what if it's this?
00:16:43.669 --> 00:16:45.029
I'm not gonna know right now.
00:16:45.189 --> 00:16:48.069
I don't know right now, and I'm not gonna know for sure right now.
00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:52.949
And then, of course, you know, that usually the anxiety is not just gonna stop there, right?
00:16:53.269 --> 00:17:02.069
You know, kind of press on and be like, well, it would be terrible if it's, you know, you should think about like that family history or whatever.
00:17:02.309 --> 00:17:05.670
And then it's just like, I'm not gonna know for sure right now.
00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:09.750
You're just reaffirming that, and that's all it gets, that's all the anxiety gets.
00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:25.990
It doesn't get um justification or um defense uh or like kind of putting bringing more information into it that for the anxiety to then just use and kind of throw back at the person.
00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:28.710
And that's that's just one of the non-engagement responses.
00:17:29.029 --> 00:17:32.150
Um, but in general, that's how they're used.
00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:42.070
Um you the kind of
expect actually that the anxiety is gonna try to, it's gonna persist, it's gonna try to keep pulling you in.
00:17:42.310 --> 00:17:53.269
Um, but just like uh like in a court of law where one of the attorneys says asked and answered, and then the opposing attorney tries again and asked and answered.
00:17:53.350 --> 00:17:54.070
Like that's all it gets.
00:17:54.470 --> 00:17:55.590
I love that too.
00:17:55.830 --> 00:17:56.390
Yeah.
00:17:56.630 --> 00:17:57.269
Yeah.
00:17:57.590 --> 00:18:07.110
Uh there's sort of like a broken record element to that asked and answered where it becomes very predictable.
00:18:07.350 --> 00:18:18.870
And once you strengthen that muscle, it's very predictable that any angle that that anxiety tries, you're being kind of apparent in the checkout line.
00:18:19.110 --> 00:18:20.390
Can I have the candy bar?
00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:35.350
No, it's gonna be dinner, and then we give that broken record kind of response that asked and answered, asked and answered, because anytime we deviate, we can kind of prolong and extend that dialogue.
00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.590
Yes, um, reaction or any new response.
00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:40.550
Right, right.
00:18:41.350 --> 00:18:44.150
You're not the toddler in the in the grocery store line.
00:18:44.310 --> 00:18:48.070
What happens first is the the kid escalates, right?
00:18:48.310 --> 00:18:50.630
So that's called an extinction burst, right?
00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:53.029
The the kid is is testing, right?
00:18:53.190 --> 00:19:00.950
Testing the parent says no, you yell louder, you know, beg more, you know, throw yourself on the floor, whatever.
00:19:01.590 --> 00:19:10.550
And then if the parent gives in at that point, well, the the kid has learned, okay, like I need to I need to scream louder, and then I'll get what I want.
00:19:10.790 --> 00:19:18.070
So oftentimes the anxiety increases, the thoughts become even more catastrophic.
00:19:18.310 --> 00:19:24.950
You can think of it kind of as it's almost like the anxiety is saying, you know, you you have to think about this now, but what about this?
00:19:25.269 --> 00:19:40.710
You basically hold your ground and you do not give it um anything other than a non-engagement type of response, uh, just like the toddler eventually will see, you know, okay, this is not not working right now.
00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.750
It's the same thing with the anxiety.
00:19:43.990 --> 00:19:51.509
Um, but to to speak to um that bully metaphor, oftentimes this is this is used with OCD.
00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:53.509
It does kind of operate like a bully.
00:19:53.590 --> 00:20:07.670
It's trying to intimidate you, and um, you know, your engagement with it um is really the thing that um feeds it, right?
00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:21.670
Now when I talk about a bully, I I don't mean it in a in a kind of a scary type of way where you're giving your anxiety this this like extra power as it like this it's this big, you know, scary thing.
00:20:21.830 --> 00:20:23.029
It feels that way.
00:20:23.190 --> 00:20:29.670
It definitely feels that way, and and that's how bullies, you know, feel too very intimidating.
00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:37.509
But oftentimes with bullies, uh when the bully is not getting engagement, right?
00:20:37.670 --> 00:20:45.670
Like they're not getting a reaction or you know, the attention that they wanted or whatever it is, they back off.
00:20:46.070 --> 00:21:11.269
Um and so knowing how to deal strategically with a bully, you know, not fighting with the bully, or as in that video that you're gonna link, you know, not defending yourself, not arguing back, um, but instead uh putting out there these assertive answers um that allow you to respond.
00:21:11.430 --> 00:21:20.070
So you're not um you're not in the position of kind of like a victim or or being trod upon, right?
00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:28.710
But you are but these are the types of answers that ideally leave the bully with not much to say.
00:21:29.590 --> 00:21:33.990
Um so so in that way, anxiety is is like a bully.
00:21:34.070 --> 00:21:47.830
It's kind of uh on the outside, big and bad, it feels very scary, but but what we see is if we approach it, right, rather than running from it, scrambling compulsive reasoning, rumination.
00:21:47.910 --> 00:21:51.350
You're you're running from the anxiety, you're trying to resolve it.
00:21:51.590 --> 00:21:52.710
That makes it worse.
00:21:52.870 --> 00:21:55.990
It's like being uh like being chased by a dog, right?
00:21:56.070 --> 00:21:59.350
If you run from a dog, it is definitely gonna chase you.
00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:02.470
It's the best way to get a dog to chase you, is to run from it.
00:22:03.110 --> 00:22:06.550
Uh and it's the same, it's the same, same with this.
00:22:06.790 --> 00:22:11.110
So, a metaphor that I like to use is the Wizard of Oz.
00:22:11.350 --> 00:22:27.029
Um, most people have seen that movie, and uh the part where they're in the in the room with the the big green head that is Oz, you know, he's he's very scary looking and they're shaking, and uh and he sends them away on a basically what he thinks is an impossible task.
00:22:27.110 --> 00:22:27.910
He sends them away.
00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:30.070
He does not want them to come closer.
00:22:30.550 --> 00:22:37.269
Uh and when they come back and and Toto actually runs behind the little curtain.
00:22:38.070 --> 00:22:41.670
What's revealed is that it's just a little old man behind the curtain.
00:22:41.750 --> 00:22:46.710
And they never would have seen that had they kept running from it.
00:22:46.790 --> 00:23:11.430
You have to basically facing it, approaching it, um, is the thing that shows you oftentimes what felt so scary and powerful, it crumbles when it is not fed with our uh grasping and scrambling and striving, which is intuitive, right?
00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:12.470
That's that's the problem.
00:23:12.550 --> 00:23:17.830
It's the intuitive thing to do is to try
to find a way to feel better, right?
00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:25.910
So anxiety has uh an upper the upper hand in that in that the intuitive thing to do is generally the thing that feeds anxiety.
00:23:26.070 --> 00:23:35.910
Um but when it doesn't have that, uh what's revealed oftentimes is it is a little old man behind the the the curtain.
00:23:36.070 --> 00:23:38.390
Um it's it loses its power.
00:23:38.790 --> 00:23:39.430
Yeah.
00:23:39.750 --> 00:24:03.269
It it feels like the extra layer of like, I don't know if it's irony here, is that there have probably been rewards for continuing to comb over these issues and and folks feel like this is my superpower, that I can get to the bottom of these things, that I can see all the angles.
00:24:03.590 --> 00:24:05.269
I'm actually really skilled at that.
00:24:05.350 --> 00:24:08.310
I've I've gotten reinforcement for it in the past.
00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:24.070
And so it feels almost like letting down a part of their identity or their safety to get to the behind the curtain would feel like really a letting go of this is who I am and this is a great strength of mine.
00:24:24.470 --> 00:24:25.190
Right, right.
00:24:25.350 --> 00:24:40.310
Well, I and I think it's it's important to kind of clarify if a person, you know, is enjoying or you know, or or or engaging in the thinking because they want to.
00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:48.230
It it's what feels right and warranted to them, versus feeling like they're kind of trapped, right?
00:24:48.390 --> 00:24:50.390
Like trapped on a hamster wheel.
00:24:50.550 --> 00:24:53.590
That's it's a different, it's different, a different situation.
00:24:53.670 --> 00:25:09.110
You know, that there's nothing wrong with you know deep thinking as long as it's the person is the one driving that process, as opposed to the anxiety being the thing that is driving that process.
00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:14.630
Um but it is hard to let go of because it feels it can feel safer.
00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:14.790
Yeah.
00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:17.990
And if you think it through a million times over, it's safer.
00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:19.830
Um, it's really not true.
00:25:19.990 --> 00:25:28.390
There's only a finite amount of you know conclusion that you can uh even even get to.
00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:33.910
Um uh so it it it it's a safety behavior, right?
00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:36.230
It feels like you're keeping yourself safe.
00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:43.029
Yeah when in reality the behavior is feeding the anxiety.
00:25:43.269 --> 00:25:47.750
It's that scrambling, it's that desperation that's feeding the anxiety.
00:25:48.070 --> 00:25:50.470
Yeah, I think that's a great differentiation.
00:25:50.710 --> 00:26:10.790
I think because for a lot of people it feels important, you know, and I don't know if they would say it feels good, but it's also leading to other problems that comfortable or familiar, maybe, but they re they get to a point where they realize like, wow, this is keeping me up, it's making me sick, it's leading to panic.
00:26:11.509 --> 00:26:15.830
Um and and I'm no better, you know, better for it.
00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:18.950
I don't I still don't have the answers or I still don't have that certainty.
00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:20.150
Exactly.
00:26:20.550 --> 00:26:25.430
A person can end up feeling like they're doing the responsible thing, right?
00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:35.190
So that's that's the reinforcement um when a person can feel like they're being irresponsible if they're not um you know agonizing over it.
00:26:35.509 --> 00:26:35.750
Yeah.
00:26:36.070 --> 00:26:46.310
Um but I would say that is a I would say that's a lie kind of put out there by the anxiety bully to you know to keep you hooked.
00:26:46.470 --> 00:27:11.830
Uh you're bad if you, you know, you know, you you know, what if uh you had just thought this through more than XYZ wouldn't have happened to, you know, it's a guilt, uh, hyper responsibility, all of these things are oftentimes involved, and recognizing those things as hallmarks of the anxiety bully uh is is important.
00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:17.430
It can be very helpful to uh rec I call it recognizing no surprise.
00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:31.350
And certain things, you have certain thoughts, and this is super common in OCD, um, but I think this happens to everyone with uh any kind of um significant anxiety.
00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:34.790
Certain thoughts are are very predictable, right?
00:27:35.029 --> 00:27:39.990
So for one person it might be that that feeling of responsibility, you know.
00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:42.630
Well, I have all these people counting on me.
00:27:42.790 --> 00:27:51.269
Um, you know, it it is appropriate to uh you know agonize over this for hours and and hours and hours.
00:27:51.590 --> 00:28:02.390
Um it's I would say uh that's kind of like the the the hook, and and it's no surprise, right?
00:28:02.550 --> 00:28:07.910
Like if for one particular person it's always what it would be irresponsible not to.
00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:16.470
Or for another person, um, it might be something like, well, you know, if you just think it through a little, like maybe you'll get to the answer.
00:28:16.630 --> 00:28:21.029
These are kind of patterns, and so if you can recognize them, right?
00:28:21.110 --> 00:28:29.750
So when that voice in your head says, you're being irresponsible if you don't, oh, no surprise, no surprise you'd go there, anxiety.
00:28:29.830 --> 00:28:32.470
Like basically that was as predictable as the sun rising.
00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:33.830
No surprise there.
00:28:33.910 --> 00:28:36.790
Um, you know, could have seen that coming a mile away.
00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:48.230
And that can be very helpful because um, with certain thoughts, right, uh, you know, oh, something terrible could happen, you're being irresponsible, you're letting people down.
00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:56.550
You know, we we we have I call the oh no reaction sometimes,
like, and then we default, right, and do something about it, right?
00:28:56.790 --> 00:29:01.190
So recognizing no surprise, like, wait a minute, like this is not new.
00:29:01.350 --> 00:29:04.310
This is like I could have seen this coming a mile away.
00:29:04.630 --> 00:29:11.110
It it interrupts that um that that default into like do something.
00:29:11.269 --> 00:29:12.550
I need to do something.
00:29:12.790 --> 00:29:13.029
Yeah.
00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:27.670
Having this response be so familiar that it's hard, it's hard to let go of it because it feels like this is my intuition telling me this bad thing is going to happen if I don't, versus like, oh, it's really just a real well-rehearsed mechanism.
00:29:28.070 --> 00:29:29.750
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:35.029
And so in that type of situation, you know, identifying patterns, right?
00:29:35.110 --> 00:29:42.310
Like familiar patterns, you know, if it's say worry about a family member's safety or something like that, right?
00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:49.430
Uh, if that's a common, you know, thing that comes up, it's easier to recognize.
00:29:49.590 --> 00:30:05.670
But uh it's also the type of situation with with that particular example that thinking it through, reasoning about it, um is not going to really uh do anything.
00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:10.630
Now, I'm I can already think of the the but um you know response to that.
00:30:10.870 --> 00:30:18.390
Well, but you know, if I if I did call my child's friend and you know found out, then maybe this would keep them safe.
00:30:18.550 --> 00:30:38.310
Um so it when it's not OCD uh or or you know um I would say like clinical uh clinical GAD or uh when it's really I think more just worrying, you have to think about um, you know, what uh what is the cost of what you're doing?
00:30:38.550 --> 00:30:40.470
Are you in the driver's seat?
00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:47.269
Um and and I mean and that can actually you can end up compulsively reasoning about that too.
00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:52.230
But then I go back to that urgency and desperation kind of rule of thumb.
00:30:52.470 --> 00:31:02.870
Um, you know, and and knowing, you know, what kind of as I was saying, like what kind of things get you, you know, that that can be that can be helpful.
00:31:03.110 --> 00:31:03.430
Yeah.
00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:04.630
Yeah.
00:31:05.110 --> 00:31:10.870
Could you give me the next NERS and an example?
00:31:11.350 --> 00:31:12.150
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:17.830
So uh the first non-engagement response I usually teach people is the gentlest one.
00:31:18.070 --> 00:31:20.070
Um, I call it the gentlest one.
00:31:20.310 --> 00:31:21.110
It's hard, right?
00:31:21.190 --> 00:31:25.430
It's like it's hard to say, uh, I don't know if that's gonna happen.
00:31:25.590 --> 00:31:26.950
It's very difficult.
00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:38.150
Um uh and actually just uh before I move on from that, I I want to say too that the the tone and the attitude matters so much, right?
00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:42.070
So you're not saying, I don't, I don't know, I'm not gonna know.
00:31:42.310 --> 00:31:46.390
It's more of a it's more of like a I don't know, and I'm not gonna know.
00:31:46.550 --> 00:31:48.790
That so that's very that's very important.
00:31:48.950 --> 00:31:55.670
The tone, the you you don't want to be um kind of responding like you're like you're a victim.
00:31:55.750 --> 00:31:59.029
Uh it's the exact opposite is is the purpose.
00:31:59.269 --> 00:32:02.150
So, so back to uh affirmation of anxiety.
00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:08.630
I call it affirmation of anxiety, which is that you're you're just agreeing and acknowledging, yes, I feel anxious.
00:32:08.790 --> 00:32:11.509
Yes, that's a really anxiety-provoking idea.
00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:24.310
So instead of um, you know, if the thought is something like, uh, well, you know, what if um, you know, I don't know, what if uh I lose my job, right?
00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:27.910
Um, that's a very anxiety-provoking idea.
00:32:27.990 --> 00:32:28.950
It certainly is.
00:32:29.269 --> 00:32:30.630
You know, and then it's going to continue.
00:32:30.790 --> 00:32:37.910
Well, like maybe you should think about, maybe you should finish this project early, or you know, if you don't, like your boss could be upset with you.
00:32:38.070 --> 00:32:40.310
That's an anxiety-provoking idea, too.
00:32:40.790 --> 00:32:49.750
Um you know, well, you know, that would be terrible if you lost your job, because you know, you definitely an anxiety-provoking idea.
00:32:49.910 --> 00:33:03.670
So what you're doing is you're you're just acknowledging the anxiety that's already there, it's already there, instead of being in the position of trying to get rid of it, trying to get rid of it, trying to get rid of it.
00:33:04.070 --> 00:33:05.029
You're agreeing.
00:33:05.269 --> 00:33:12.150
And that in that way, you're you're it gives you it's something to still to strategically agree to.
00:33:12.310 --> 00:33:14.950
And that's very important with the non-engagement responses.
00:33:15.110 --> 00:33:18.710
There's an element of strategic agreement, right?
00:33:19.110 --> 00:33:22.310
So, yes, that's a really anxiety-provoking thought.
00:33:22.390 --> 00:33:23.509
It most definitely is.
00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:29.190
Or, yeah, um, I am not gonna know right now, or some of the other non-engagement responses.
00:33:29.350 --> 00:33:31.910
Yeah, maybe anything's possible, right?
00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:55.670
There's this strategic agreement that is um central to non-engagement responses, um, that uh is particularly um difficult, I guess you could say, for the anxiety bully to then come back at you with, because you're essentially agreeing in some way, right?
00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:58.790
Like, yeah, that would be really bad, you know.
00:33:58.870 --> 00:34:06.870
Um, and the bully video that you mentioned is a great um example of of the power of strategic
agreeing.
00:34:07.190 --> 00:34:09.909
Not like a victim, though, not in that way at all.
00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:12.150
It's strategic, it's masterful.
00:34:12.710 --> 00:34:16.230
Uh any kind of element of agreement we can get in there.
00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:28.469
So I would, you know, tell somebody not not just a that's an anxiety-provoking idea, even better if there's, yeah, that really is like you're agreeing with it.
00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:36.789
Um, and and kind of by doing that, you're uh you're you're beating the anxiety at its own game, which is exactly what we want to do.
00:34:37.190 --> 00:34:37.590
Yeah.
00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:49.509
Um, I have told this story for like decades now, but in an adolescent group, there was a a kid that all the other kids really grew to love.
00:34:49.670 --> 00:34:51.109
And it was exactly for that.
00:34:51.269 --> 00:34:55.670
A different kid said, Cool shirt, do they sell men's clothes where you bought that?
00:34:55.909 --> 00:34:59.670
Instead of saying, It doesn't even look like a women's shirt.
00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:00.949
What are you talking about?
00:35:01.109 --> 00:35:05.429
And the kid responded, That's the greatest compliment I've ever received.
00:35:05.670 --> 00:35:10.469
And the whole group was howling, including the one who had lodged the critique.
00:35:10.789 --> 00:35:16.389
And every day it was something like that where he made the funnier joke out of it.
00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:19.670
And I definitely hear elements of that.
00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:20.230
Exactly.
00:35:20.469 --> 00:35:25.190
He found a way to kind of to go with it, right, rather than against it.
00:35:26.069 --> 00:35:34.389
Um and uh and and that that's that's such an important um thing with if with anxiety treatment and anxiety work.
00:35:34.549 --> 00:35:37.349
Um there's there's something called a Chinese finger puzzle.
00:35:37.429 --> 00:35:38.549
I don't know if you've ever heard of that.
00:35:38.629 --> 00:35:45.750
It's like a little straw, yeah, right, where you put your fingers in, and the more you try to pull them out, the tighter it gets.
00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:49.829
Really, the the way you get your fingers by pushing them together, right?
00:35:50.149 --> 00:35:54.069
So you're you're not going against it, you're not fighting it.
00:35:54.230 --> 00:35:57.829
It's doing the opposite, kind of going with it strategically.
00:35:58.389 --> 00:36:02.309
That is the thing that is setting you free.
00:36:02.949 --> 00:36:04.789
Um you mentioned humor.
00:36:05.190 --> 00:36:05.349
Yeah.
00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:05.829
Yeah.
00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:11.589
If anxiety is trying to warn you, then to acknowledge, like, yeah, great warning.
00:36:11.750 --> 00:36:12.069
Thanks.
00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:16.149
Yep, I can see how that would be an anxiety-provoking thought.
00:36:16.309 --> 00:36:16.549
Yeah.
00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:16.869
Sure.
00:36:17.109 --> 00:36:17.589
About humor.
00:36:17.909 --> 00:36:18.149
Sure.
00:36:18.469 --> 00:36:19.269
Sure, exactly.
00:36:19.429 --> 00:36:29.109
Yes, but so you know, that's a getting humor in there is a a really good way to stay in that kind of masterful strategic place, right?
00:36:29.429 --> 00:36:41.029
So one of the other non-engagement responses is affirmation of difficulty, which you know, when when people first hear this, you know, without the explanation, it can seem like, what?
00:36:41.190 --> 00:36:42.469
That is so cruel.
00:36:42.710 --> 00:36:44.309
You know, how could you say that to someone?
00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:48.710
How could you so really what it is is agreeing, like, yeah, that would really suck.
00:36:49.029 --> 00:37:01.190
Um but the reason that it's uh it's effective as opposed to super depressing and scary is because you're saying it in a way, right?
00:37:01.269 --> 00:37:05.589
Like, so well, you you could have cancer, uh, or what if you have cancer?
00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:08.869
Well, like, duh, that would suck.
00:37:09.029 --> 00:37:14.069
Like, so matter of fact, you're treating the question like it's a dumb question, right?
00:37:14.629 --> 00:37:19.190
Um, it like over the the answer is is obvious, right?
00:37:19.269 --> 00:37:22.549
Like, so what if uh, you know, what if I get fired, right?
00:37:23.029 --> 00:37:24.149
Uh that would suck.
00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:25.750
Like, what do you mean, what if you get fired?
00:37:25.829 --> 00:37:28.230
Like, that'll be terrible, like dumb question.
00:37:28.629 --> 00:37:30.789
You know, so like a little sarcastic.
00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:36.389
Uh, and it's thought it, it's that's really what the question is asking.
00:37:36.549 --> 00:37:38.069
Anxiety doesn't want it answered that way.
00:37:38.149 --> 00:37:42.230
And was, well, this would happen, and this would happen, and what if this happens?
00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.429
But what if I like well that would be really hard.
00:37:45.509 --> 00:37:47.589
Like that would be like dumb question.
00:37:48.149 --> 00:37:50.069
That's how how you can use it.
00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:53.269
Um, not everybody likes that non-engagement response.
00:37:53.349 --> 00:37:54.469
Some some people love it.
00:37:54.629 --> 00:38:17.190
Uh, you know, depend it you use what is what uh what's effective for you, but um, but that is a uh one where it's particularly important to use some um some humor in order to have it work for you and make it uh masterful where you know you're taking the reins by putting that out there.
00:38:17.509 --> 00:38:28.389
You're not giving you're not giving it your your energy, your time, your um, you know, the importance.
00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:36.069
You're not validating the the worry or the the what if uh with attention, right?
00:38:36.230 --> 00:38:50.629
So, you know, if we spend two hours worrying about, I don't know, um, you know, what if what if my car breaks down or you know, the you just validated that that worry.
00:38:50.710 -->
00:38:57.989
Like you're it's now gonna feel more possible and really like for your car to break down, right?
00:38:58.389 --> 00:39:04.230
Or let's say, let's say you're coming back from vacation and the worry is what if someone broke in, right?
00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:08.789
And you spend so much time thinking about did I lock every door?
00:39:09.029 --> 00:39:10.309
Did I put the alarm on?
00:39:10.469 --> 00:39:11.670
Which neighbors are home?
00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:20.789
Who is like the more time you spend, the more real of a possibility, or or I should say more probable it feels.
00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:25.509
It just feels like more of a threat because you're treating it like one, right?
00:39:26.309 --> 00:39:35.190
So uh, you know, you can think of it as you could even um induce uh a fear that way, like by by treating it.
00:39:35.349 --> 00:39:53.829
If uh somebody was made to um, you know, uh before they back out of a parking space, um, get out of their car, look, you know, um take a mirror and just this ridiculous stuff for five minutes before you back out.
00:39:54.149 --> 00:40:01.429
Backing out of your parking spot is going to feel more dangerous if if you're doing behaviors like that.
00:40:01.909 --> 00:40:06.389
The compulsive reasoning feeds anxiety, it validates the fear.
00:40:06.710 --> 00:40:08.629
That example hits close to home.
00:40:08.789 --> 00:40:11.909
I have a car that beeps when I back up.
00:40:11.989 --> 00:40:15.670
If anybody's within a 50 mile radius, it feels like.
00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:30.389
It's so interesting how the more layers you add on, the more protections, not only the more do you continue to want to add on, um, but also the more anxiety it adds because it's give it sending the message.
00:40:30.710 --> 00:40:34.629
It sends the message that it is a threat, it validates the threat.
00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:40.469
Um, and of you know, uh another another example, this happened with a client of mine.
00:40:40.549 --> 00:40:50.949
She was waiting to hear back from graduate schools, and she was checking her email so many times throughout the day, just so many times.
00:40:51.269 --> 00:40:55.509
And to the point that I mean, she it was all she could think about.
00:40:55.829 --> 00:40:57.190
And it was very difficult.
00:40:57.349 --> 00:41:00.869
We we put a limit, I think we started with three times an hour.
00:41:00.949 --> 00:41:08.469
We started with that, and then work like lower, and her anxiety improved about like, is she gonna get in to this pro?
00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:16.069
But she really had no chance, right, to not feel terribly anxious about it all day with constantly checking it like that.
00:41:16.230 --> 00:41:21.509
And so, you know, that's that's a physical behavior, but same thing with the mental behavior, right?
00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:28.629
Um, you can be you can be mentally checking, am I um I don't know, am I being careful enough?
00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:33.269
Uh, you know, was what I said um appropriate?
00:41:33.670 --> 00:41:43.109
Whatever it is, yeah uh if we if we treat it like a threat, it's going to feel more like a threat.
00:41:43.589 --> 00:41:52.069
Strategic agreement is where you're you're getting in, if you can, some kind of agreement with the threatening thought, right?
00:41:52.230 --> 00:42:00.309
So the threatening thought is um, you know, well, maybe XYZ means this is gonna happen.
00:42:00.469 --> 00:42:01.909
Yeah, yeah, maybe it does.
00:42:02.069 --> 00:42:03.109
Anything's possible.
00:42:03.429 --> 00:42:04.309
Could be.
00:42:04.549 --> 00:42:16.069
Um and I guess I'll just say this last thing, too, with non-engagement, particularly um affirmation of possibility and affirmation of uncertainty, um, which I don't know.
00:42:16.230 --> 00:42:18.710
And it's also um maybe, maybe not.
00:42:18.949 --> 00:42:26.949
It's important to just know that what you're doing there, you're not you're not trying to convince yourself that the bad thing's gonna happen.
00:42:27.109 --> 00:42:33.109
You're just acknowledging the the reality that for the most part, almost anything's possible.
00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:36.629
Your car could be on fire outside your house right now.
00:42:36.789 --> 00:42:38.710
Like it's not impossible.
00:42:38.869 --> 00:42:40.549
Um, you're not worried about it.
00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:46.309
People can acknowledge this uh with whatever it is that they're not worried about, right?
00:42:46.389 --> 00:42:48.149
Uh driving, I mean, that's a good example.
00:42:48.389 --> 00:42:50.469
Probably the most dangerous thing we do.
00:42:50.710 --> 00:42:55.750
Nobody would deny it's possible, you know, something terrible could happen.
00:42:55.989 --> 00:42:57.109
We all know it's possible.
00:42:57.269 --> 00:43:02.949
We don't worry about it for the most part because we, you know, drive safely and do the reasonable things.
00:43:03.269 --> 00:43:07.429
But I don't think, you know, someone would say, no, it's impossible.
00:43:07.589 --> 00:43:10.710
I'm 100% guaranteed safe.
00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:13.190
Um that's just not the case.
00:43:13.349 --> 00:43:19.750
So sure, sure it's possible, but it's kind of more of like, I don't need to go there though, right?
00:43:19.909 --> 00:43:21.190
Like we don't need to.
00:43:21.750 --> 00:43:27.989
So that's what maybe, maybe not is it's instead of pushing back, like, is it gonna happen?
00:43:28.069 --> 00:43:30.149
What if it means it's yeah, maybe it will.
00:43:30.309 --> 00:43:31.190
Like, you never know.
00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:34.069
Sure, it could be anything's possible in this world.
00:43:34.309 --> 00:43:36.549
That's that's kind of how you're using it.
00:43:36.789 --> 00:43:37.429
Yeah.
00:43:39.589 --> 00:43:54.389
I can understand how that stops the hamster wheel because um when you try and say, well, no, that's not gonna happen, your brain can produce another example or at least keeps you in that cycle of thinking.
00:43:54.629 -->
00:44:01.429
But just acknowledging, like, well, sure, of course, anything you can think of basically is possible.
00:44:02.469 --> 00:44:03.109
Right, right.
00:44:03.269 --> 00:44:09.750
It's just it's just affirming the reality that you know we accept all day long without thinking about it.
00:44:09.909 --> 00:44:13.589
You know, it's possible you could get food poisoning the next time you eat at a restaurant.
00:44:13.829 --> 00:44:15.029
I mean, who thinks about that?
00:44:15.269 --> 00:44:23.909
If you're if you are wanting to stay off the hamster wheel, uh, you know, then you use these strategies.
00:44:24.230 --> 00:44:31.670
I should say though, you know, there are for so many people, it's that's not even necessarily about wanting to stay off the hamster wheel.
00:44:31.829 --> 00:44:33.670
Sometimes that is exactly what it is.
00:44:33.829 --> 00:44:37.750
A person feels desperate, especially in OCD, to get off the hamster wheel.
00:44:38.149 --> 00:44:47.429
Just like they do anything to get off the hamster wheel, but can't, as you had mentioned before, there there's ambivalence, you know, I should maybe doing this.
00:44:47.509 --> 00:44:54.869
Like there's not confidence that it's excessive necessarily, right?
00:44:55.269 --> 00:45:10.069
So um, so again, like back to these kind of rules of thumb using urgency, time spent, even things like um, you know, is there even external information?
00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:16.629
Like, is there is there information that you know could come just from your mind, right?
00:45:16.789 --> 00:45:20.710
Like that you could, is that is that even the case, right?
00:45:21.190 --> 00:45:28.149
Um, you know, are you going to have you think, you know, are you are you going to, so am I going to get fired?
00:45:28.230 --> 00:45:33.349
Uh let's say that's a a common worry, or let's say someone has gotten fired from multiple jobs.
00:45:33.589 --> 00:45:39.349
So so I I have a I have a client who had a kind of bad history with that and would always worry about that.
00:45:39.509 --> 00:45:49.109
Um but that's a you know, it's a it's understandable, um, but um but frequent that that's not serving the person.
00:45:49.829 --> 00:45:59.589
And um, you know, aside from, you know, of course, like doing, you know, your job and doing just am I could what about the look on her face?
00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:06.069
Did this mean she didn't like like that's not gonna, that's not gonna tell you if you're gonna get fired or not.
00:46:06.149 --> 00:46:08.230
You're not gonna be able to figure that out.
00:46:08.549 --> 00:46:13.750
Um so uh so it's really just kind of really keeping it basic.
00:46:13.909 --> 00:46:15.989
Am I gonna, am I gonna know for sure?
00:46:16.069 --> 00:46:17.589
Am I gonna know for 100%?
00:46:18.230 --> 00:46:27.670
And if it's oftentimes if it's anything less than 100% or almost in in an OCD's case and significant anxieties, it has to be 110%.
00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:31.269
Um it's it's just impossible.
00:46:31.429 --> 00:46:41.190
Um, and so you are not going to engage, you're not gonna play this game that you know you cannot possibly win.
00:46:41.349 --> 00:46:42.389
You're not gonna do it.
00:46:42.549 --> 00:46:44.149
It doesn't make sense.
00:46:44.869 --> 00:46:51.989
Yeah, I think that's a great way to think about it, even when we're guiding our clients.
00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:55.989
Is any of this making it more possible to know?
00:46:56.469 --> 00:47:02.469
And oftentimes it is the opposite of the you know, thinking making it more clear.
00:47:02.789 --> 00:47:05.670
So much of the time it makes it less clear, right?
00:47:05.909 --> 00:47:25.269
You know, the so the more you are thinking about it, the less clear it becomes, the more confused you're, you know, sometimes I'll say, you know, it's kind of like like if you're looking at a pen, you know, if you're looking at it like this closely, you can't even see it, right?
00:47:25.589 --> 00:47:29.989
Um so it's the only thing you can see, yet you can't really see it.
00:47:30.549 --> 00:47:32.389
It's it's ineffective, right?
00:47:32.629 --> 00:47:41.349
It's not it, but not only is it ineffective, it I mean it makes it it makes it more um uh unknowable or more confused.
00:47:41.589 --> 00:47:50.549
I think what just um maybe one thing to mention about uh coping responses or supportive uh statements as opposed to non-engagement responses.
00:47:51.109 --> 00:48:07.190
Um so a lot of um a lot of kind of what's out there on social media and um you know, just in hearing about uh people are calling certain things non-engagement responses, like um uh you know, I don't need to think about that right now.
00:48:07.349 --> 00:48:09.269
I'll be able to handle that if that happens.
00:48:09.509 --> 00:48:12.549
Now, not that those are bad things at all to say.
00:48:12.710 --> 00:48:14.789
Um those can be very good things to say.
00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:23.509
And if the person is able to say to themselves something like, you know, I'll handle it if it happens, and then they can move on, excellent.
00:48:23.750 --> 00:48:30.309
So good, but if you know, something like I'll handle it if it happens, then you get caught.
00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:31.349
But how do I know I'll handle it?
00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:33.029
How will I know it'll happen?
00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:35.029
What are the signs it's happening?
00:48:35.269 --> 00:48:38.069
How will I react when it does happen?
00:48:38.949 --> 00:48:39.109
Right.
00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:40.710
And what if I don't handle it?
00:48:40.949 --> 00:48:48.789
Yeah, or another one is you know, um, this a lot of people are calling a non-engagement response is I don't need to figure this out right now.
00:48:48.949 --> 00:48:52.789
And again, that's not a bad thing to say to yourself.
00:48:53.029 --> 00:48:58.549
Um, if reminding yourself of that allows you to move on, then awesome, use it.
00:48:58.629 --> 00:49:00.469
You know, use what works
for you.
00:49:00.789 --> 00:49:15.029
But if what ends up happening is, you know, to I don't need to figure this out right now, but maybe I do, you know, maybe I do need to maybe it's irresponsible not to, then it's just keeping you on the wheel.
00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:30.389
So these coping responses, like like really any coping strategy, uh, I think, you know, can be very helpful as long as um, you know, well, at least with OCD, the really the measure is can you are you moving on?
00:49:30.469 --> 00:49:46.389
Or is it is it just keeping you in the butt with anything, um, yeah, if telling yourself and it's gentler in a lot of ways, I'll handle it, or um, you know, anything if that helps you move on, fantastic.
00:49:46.629 --> 00:50:00.949
Um, but I do differentiate uh with something like that and a non-engagement response in that the non-engagement response, it really has to involve um some element of strategic agreement, right?
00:50:01.190 --> 00:50:06.069
So even though you can be strategically agreeing, yeah, like who knows, anything's possible.
00:50:06.309 --> 00:50:22.069
Of course, the anxiety can still say something back, you're not giving it more, you're not defending, you're not justifying, um, you're not uh um reassuring, like you're not giving it anything to use.
00:50:22.629 --> 00:50:27.429
Um in a lot of ways, it's it's kind of like um dealing with a narcissist, right?
00:50:27.829 --> 00:50:33.509
Where um it's best not to defend yourself, it's not it's best not to justify your behavior, right?
00:50:33.589 --> 00:50:36.389
Uh agree to disagree, noted, right?
00:50:36.629 --> 00:50:38.149
You don't want to engage.
00:50:38.469 --> 00:50:39.670
Same type of thing.
00:50:40.069 --> 00:50:56.230
I think those are such good reminders that sort of um transfer across different areas our clients are dealing with that can be helpful not to jump in and really engage.
00:50:56.389 --> 00:50:58.149
There are real opportunities.
00:50:58.309 --> 00:51:13.670
You know, DBT has opposite action where our instinct is to get in and really sort through it, and that might be helpful in some areas and to be able to just notice sometimes, like, wow, I'm doing this response that I've been conditioned to do.
00:51:13.909 --> 00:51:17.989
And instead, I just want to acknowledge like, yeah, it could happen.
00:51:18.149 --> 00:51:18.549
Uh-huh.
00:51:18.789 --> 00:51:20.469
I could have this experience.
00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:26.389
Yeah, but if these thoughts, no wonder I'm feeling anxious because they're anxiety-provoking.
00:51:26.710 --> 00:51:28.149
Exactly, exactly.
00:51:28.309 --> 00:51:34.549
And you have to remember with non-engagement responses, you know, why you are strategically agreeing, right?
00:51:34.789 --> 00:51:35.829
That's very important.
00:51:36.069 --> 00:51:45.429
So, you know, if you're saying, yeah, well, anything's possible, it could happen, you know, you throw you're you're agreeing that it's possible uh strategically, right?
00:51:45.589 --> 00:51:52.789
You're agreeing because you're not going to fight to prove something that can't be proven, right?
00:51:52.949 --> 00:51:56.469
And keep yourself it's anything is possible.
00:51:56.629 --> 00:52:14.309
So you have to remember kind of um what position you're you're in, what position you're trying to stay in, and why, yeah, why you are using this strategy in order for it to be used to empower you rather than for it to feel depressing, right?
00:52:14.549 --> 00:52:17.269
Or or like you're uh resigned.
00:52:19.429 --> 00:52:29.429
I I love that as just sort of a closing note that knowing what you're using, you know, do I have a response that I use that's effective?
00:52:29.589 --> 00:52:29.829
Great.
00:52:29.989 --> 00:52:31.750
Is it a non-engagement response?
00:52:31.909 --> 00:52:46.549
Not necessarily, you know, so that you know when the when the time comes up what it what those exactly look like and why a coping response that has been effective isn't effective in this other scenario, because it really isn't.
00:52:46.629 --> 00:52:49.670
You are engaging, it is an engagement response in some ways.
00:52:49.989 --> 00:52:54.549
And if almost like by definition, there is that element of a of agreement.
00:52:54.710 --> 00:53:04.230
Um, and that is how you are strategically not engaging, kind of like you're you're not engaging by strategically agreeing in some form.
00:53:05.509 --> 00:53:17.909
I like to ask everyone this as we close down with your clients or with you specifically, is there anything that you integrate or recommend for self-care or burnout prevention?
00:53:18.869 --> 00:53:27.029
Uh so I'm very frequently stressing giving yourself credit for doing these very hard things.
00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:36.789
Um, you know, with with OCD and anxiety treatment, exposure and response prevention is um is very effective, but it's a it's hard.
00:53:37.109 --> 00:53:39.429
Um it requires a lot of bravery.
00:53:39.589 --> 00:53:49.190
And uh, you know, even you know, outside of that, you know, telling yourself, um, yeah, well, anything's like that's hard.
00:53:49.429 --> 00:53:50.069
It is hard.
00:53:50.230 --> 00:53:51.989
It takes bravery, it takes courage.
00:53:52.309 --> 00:53:59.750
So I think um giving yourself the credit that you deserve, uh, like that that was not easy.
00:53:59.909 --> 00:54:04.789
And and also recognizing sometimes people say, well, why should I give myself credit?
00:54:04.949 --> 00:54:13.989
Like, you know, anyone can easily uh, you know, just not engage with a scary thought for, you know, why do I deserve credit for that?
00:54:14.309 --> 00:54:16.869
It's because uh how hard it is, right?
00:54:16.949 --> 00:54:20.389
Like courage is is different from fearlessness.
00:54:20.710 --> 00:54:24.949
You have to be scared in order to have courage, right?
00:54:25.269 --> 00:54:30.149
Um it means that you're you're scared, but you're you're doing it anyway, right?
00:54:30.629 --> 00:54:35.909
Um, so it doesn't matter what it what what you're scared about, right?
00:54:36.069 --> 00:54:38.869
It doesn't matter if it's something that everyone can relate to.
00:54:39.029 --> 00:54:50.549
Like it's scary to run into a burning building to save someone, you you know, deserve a lot of credit, or it's scary um acknowledging that you're not gonna know and like keeping that up.
00:54:50.710 --> 00:55:00.149
So they're both scary, and and the more scary something is, you know, uh the more credit you deserve, right?
00:55:00.309 --> 00:55:14.149
So and with some for someone uh with OCD or or or even without, you know, if it's some a really big worry, like not going there can be legitimately extremely scary.
00:55:14.710 --> 00:55:26.389
Um so though giving yourself credit, I think, is is so important because it's deserved and also because it will help you next time um do it again.
00:55:26.469 --> 00:55:33.109
It's a bit you're associating, you know, um something good uh associated with it as well.
00:55:33.909 --> 00:55:35.190
Such a great point.
00:55:35.349 --> 00:55:40.869
Uh well, Lisa, thank you so much for uh being here today and talking through this.
00:55:40.949 --> 00:55:44.389
I think this is gonna be so helpful for folks to know more about.
00:55:45.909 --> 00:55:49.029
Thank you for listening to the Self-Cherapist Therapist.
00:55:49.190 --> 00:55:55.429
I hope today's conversation gave you insight, clarity, or a tool you can take straight into your clinical work.
00:55:55.670 --> 00:56:03.190
If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
00:56:03.349 --> 00:56:07.670
It helps other therapists find the show and keeps these conversations going.
00:56:07.909 --> 00:56:12.789
Until next time, keep learning, stay curious, and take care of yourself too.