An Interview with Ralph (Buz) Code, Trust & Estate: täielik transkriptsioon

unbelievable to many people. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.879 And we have three children and five grandchildren. 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:10.400 That's fantastic. 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:13.599 So, anyway, I'm very pleased to be in Rochester. 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.960 And what happened to me in law was interesting, I think. 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.319 Back when I started, it was 50 years ago, 51 years. 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.840 Well, more than that, 1970, I passed the bar. 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:28.400 And I started, as I said, with a large firm in Rochester. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.960 In those days, you really stuck with the firm that you started with. 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:34.560 It was very unusual to leave. 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:42.960 Today it's quite usual to change firms on an ongoing basis, not just law, but banking, accounting, everything. 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.680 But anyway, back then it was unusual to leave. 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:54.960 And what happened was that six of us, six of the same class of lawyers in this large firm at year three, decided we wanted to be on our own. 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:57.039 We thought we could do it better ourselves. 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:58.719 We were in the technology. 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:02.800 We were all first children in our family, which maybe account for a lot. 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:09.120 Uh, and so we uh left this large firm to start our own practice back in 1974. 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:15.439 The interesting thing is that we actually sent out our announcements, and our starting day was April 1st. 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:23.039 And of course, we got a million calls and responses about April Fool's Day, and no one believed it for a while. 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:27.919 But anyway, we were out on our own and we didn't have a client in the world. 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.439 And we grew the firm over the 50-year period. 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:34.000 We had a wonderful time, wonderful practice. 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:40.159 We were as large as 35 lawyers, and we went up and down, had a general practice. 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:52.560 We joined Bond, actually, as of March of this year, when we recognized that it was very hard to provide services at the level that we wanted to for our clients. 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.919 It was very difficult to compete in the marketplace with large firms for talent. 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:16.240 And in order for us to provide the kind of service we wanted and to provide the backup that we wanted in all of our areas, we made a very good decision of joining Bond, a firm, although it's large, is very similar to ours in culture, which we really, really liked. 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:21.680 So we've been here since March and been pursuing our ongoing practice. 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:24.639 My pursuit has been trust in estates. 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:32.720 And the reason I'm trusting estates is because that's where I was when I was in the large firm when we left. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:40.480 It was it was a choice of mine in the large firm after our rotation that I thought that this was a good area of practice. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.160 And it's changed a lot. 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.439 And I'll get into that a little bit later how I think it's changed. 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:51.920 But each one of us had an interest in different areas of the law, and it was a perfect mix when we started our firm. 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:59.279 I was in trust and estates, we had a corporate lawyer, we had a tax lawyer, we had litigator real estate. 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.240 So we had everything covered, and we grew from there. 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.560 And we went for 51 years, which I thought was a great success. 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:10.399 And now we're looking forward to our years with bond. 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:11.519 That's terrific. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.839 And we're glad that you that you joined us. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:20.000 And I want to thank you for sharing that background because I think that guests like to get to know who is speaking today. 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:20.959 So I appreciate that. 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:21.439 All right. 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:28.800 So I guess you teed it up that as a after your rotation as a junior associate, you chose trusts and estates. 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:30.319 So let's talk a little bit about that. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.240 I guess we should probably start because not all of our listeners are attorneys. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.720 What is trust and estates law? 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:43.279 Well, in its simple definition, trust and estates is there's two parts to it. 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:59.199 You do estate planning for someone, and the state planning is where you find out what they want to do with their assets, what they really want to do with their family with respect to their assets and wealth, and then draft the documents to accomplish that. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:03.040 The other part of trusts and estates is the administration. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:13.120 It's basically if someone dies, or if a trust that you set up ends, you have to administer it and settle it and bring it to a conclusion. 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:15.279 So that's the simple answer. 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:24.079 The the more difficult answer is it's the family relationships, I think, that are the most important piece of this area of practice. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.199 It took me a long time to realize this from the beginning. 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:37.439 When you when you start practicing, when you're very young, you really kind of just go through the steps of preparing wills and doing administration. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:50.399 But as you go along and you're dealing with more and more kinds of clients and dealing with all of their different needs, you become really experienced in how to help the client. 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.800 You

become experienced in dealing with all of the different issues that come up. 00:06:55.199 --> 00:07:05.759 And I found that it became much more of a personal matter in dealing in trust and estates, and for example, in corporate or banking or things like that. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.000 Uh, those are institutional clients. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:13.279 Those are oftentimes one-off transactions that you do and you never see the client again. 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:19.439 With trust and estates, and I have to say, I've always called it the people's department. 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:38.079 I I've never, everything else in a law firm is dealing with transactions and institutional clients, but you're really dealing with people, you're dealing with maybe the executives behind the corporations, and but mostly just ordinary people that come in, regardless of what their wealth is. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.800 And they all have different needs. 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:46.399 And someone with not as much wealth, it's pretty basic. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:53.439 You help them get their wills in place for their children, and they're worried about their children's education, things like that. 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.639 There is a make sure their insurance is in the right place. 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:10.079 But as I practiced, I became um more involved with wealthier clients, people with high net worth that had a lot of issues as far as what to do with the wealth and how to deal with their children. 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.800 People don't want to give too much wealth to their children. 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:19.439 Uh, they worry that it'll it'll hurt them and not make them a very productive member of society. 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:26.240 So working around those issues became very important to some of my clients. 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:34.639 A lot of my clients had intentions for charitable giving that they needed help and what to do with their wealth as far as charities are concerned. 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:39.120 A lot of my clients had businesses that they spent their life building. 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.480 And as they get near the end of it, what do they do with their business? 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:44.080 Do they give it to their children? 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.960 Or what if their children don't talk to each other? 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:48.320 How do you deal with the business there? 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:55.039 There's so many issues that are involved, and they come to rely on their attorneys and their other advisors. 00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:01.919 And I always try to fill the role, and you've heard this bandied about, I suspect, as a trusted advisor. 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:02.399 Yes. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:18.960 And so what you want to do as an estate planner, and especially with clients that have complicated situations, and that usually is complicated when you have a lot of wealth and when you have a lot of entities like corporations or partnerships. 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:30.000 Trusted advisor is a person who can help them direct what they want to do with these uh assets, how they want to deal with their family. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.799 And it's a very rewarding thing. 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:42.720 I I've oftentimes met with have family meetings where I meet with the children and try to explain, you know, what the parent wants to try and accomplish with them. 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:50.879 We involve children in private family foundations as a way of teaching the children how to give back to the community. 00:09:51.120 --> 00:10:00.080 We involve the children in the family partnerships in order to teach the children how to run a business or deal with investments. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:14.720 So it's a you can provide tools to these families to at least for the second generation to imbue the values of the parents and try to get those children on the right path according to what the parents want. 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:17.600 So that's the estate planning side of things. 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:19.519 And that's what we try to aspire to. 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:20.799 That's pretty amazing. 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.559 And I've been at firms where we've called that private client, right? 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:29.600 Because that, like you said, it's you're the trusted advisor, these are personal issues for these individuals. 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:35.200 So it's different than the other work we do at the firm, which is much more corporation-based. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.159 Well, these are clients that become friends. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:38.559 Yeah. 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:50.480 And and that's almost the hard part because as you move into the second phase, which is the administration, it's it's heartbreaking oftentimes to administer your friend's estate. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:11:00.960 But on the other hand, if you're close with a family and you've been an advisor, even even advisors for people without a great deal of wealth, it doesn't have to be just the wealthy. 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:15.679 You have to develop a certain degree of empathy and feelings of wanting to help the family and especially the surviving spouse through this next phase of their life, which is to continue on without their spouse. 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:16.080 Yeah. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.399 Or children without their parents. 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:31.279 And it becomes even harder sometimes when some oftentimes you hear of when the parents are gone, the children, all the baggage comes up from youth, and the kids start squabbling. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:39.120 And oftentimes the role becomes rather as a rather than being a comforter, uh, more of a referee. 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:42.240 So you have to know how to handle family situations. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:46.000 And if you if you've done it enough, you've probably seen almost everything. 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:54.960 And

that is a role that I feel I can have value added to the situation and to the administration of the estate. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:01.759 So is that some of what's kept you interested in this field, being that trusted advisor and doing this for five decades? 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.639 Five decades is a very long time. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.720 So something must keep me interested. 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.159 And I think probably there's really two things. 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.279 There's I certainly like connection with people. 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:25.600 And I think that I have a way of making people feel comfortable, which is important, if you want to be a trusted advisor or if you want to help them through a very uh traumatic situation, such as the death. 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:26.960 So, yes, I like that. 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.279 I like I like the personal connection. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:34.639 I've stayed active in practice because I really enjoy what I'm doing. 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.919 I enjoy working with the people, working with my clients. 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:39.840 It's also very challenging. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:45.360 I mean, it's not just a social event, it's the challenge really is in the tax laws. 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:46.000 Yes. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:53.440 And the tax laws are quite intimidating when you're trying to do planning at a at a pretty high level. 00:12:53.600 --> 00:13:07.519 And frankly, as I've gotten older, I'm finding that this kind of challenge and uh the rigorous aspects of keeping abreast of the tax laws is probably keeping my mind going. 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:12.320 And I'm I'm going to be able to keep out of the nursing home maybe even longer. 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:17.360 Because I I truly think that the tax laws is very stimulating. 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:22.559 Many people might know a tax provision might run a page long without a sentence. 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.399 So if you can work through that, you could probably work through almost anything. 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.320 I think our mutual friend Rob Nassau would completely agree with you. 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.360 Rob Nassau is an amazing tax lawyer. 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:38.159 He's a professor at Syracuse Law School and very close to this firm, I know. 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:45.200 And he was able to take a very complicated tax situation and make it understandable even to me. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.159 And if anyone could do that, he's a darn good professor. 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:55.840 What's interesting about what's happened in the law over the past five decades, and it's changed a lot. 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.080 Back when I started, taxes were very important, tax planning. 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:05.279 In fact, when you're doing estate planning, taxes were important for everyone. 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.200 There was not much of an exemption. 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.799 There was only a$60,000 exemption back in the 70s. 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:12.559 Now it's$15 million. 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.799 And you can imagine what that means. 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.440 Back in the early days, you always had to worry about estate taxes. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:25.120 If you owned a farm or you owned a business, you were facing how do you pay the taxes? 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:30.240 Now, with a$15 million exemption, you don't have that worry anymore. 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:35.600 So a lot of the planning that we did years ago is just not there. 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.000 Certainly for what are smaller estates. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.559 New York doesn't have as high exemption. 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:46.559 It's around$7 million, as many people might know, practice in New York. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:58.480 But other states have lower exemptions than the federal exemption also, which means the federal taxes are not as important focus as state taxes are. 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.360 So a lot of our tax planning now involves tax planning for New York. 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:14.000 And that means that the level of assets, the amount of assets that someone has can be lower in order for us to do some tax planning for them. 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:20.080 And that's in the$7 to$10 million range of the states, really require tax planning. 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.879 Without the estate tax planning, there's other things that we've had to move into. 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:30.000 For example, income taxes have always been an important piece of this. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:37.519 And we always have to think about the income tax consequences of how you take retirement plans out. 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:51.200 We have to consider a lot of current seminars and presentations by top name presenters in the law profession are focusing on allocation of basis on assets. 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.799 It's not as important to get stepped up worrying about basis. 00:15:55.200 --> 00:16:01.039 And the other thing that people are concerned about is in charitable giving, how they can reduce their income taxes. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.879 So we we work on that too. 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:08.559 People are also concerned about the costs of nursing home in long-term care. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:09.440 That's right. 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:17.279 And there are ways to, especially uh clients who have assets that are in the one to two million dollar range. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:28.559 It's a real concern that if they were to go into a nursing home, with the nursing home costs today, it could be eaten up very quickly, especially because people are just living longer nowadays. 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:34.639 And there isn't a very good health care system to protect their assets at that point. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:40.879 So we do some planning, we do planning in that area of how to save long-term care costs. 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:53.919 Yeah, I believe that

the tax law is, you know, if you're practicing in trusted estates or TE as we call it, it really allows you to think expansively and creatively within the law to solve for what the client's goals are. 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:55.840 Is that how it really works out? 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:03.679 Well, I think you have to, when you recognize that clients have very many needs, and you have to be able to respond to whatever those needs are. 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:21.680 So you have to kind of know everything for a client that is just starting out in life and has children, they want to protect and have money for college for the kids, to the wealthy person who wants to protect the kids from having too much money and what do I do with my business and that sort of thing. 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:28.160 So you have to understand all the different planning techniques to help those people accomplish those goals. 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:37.599 Some of them are very simple planning techniques, some are very tax-driven planning techniques that have income tax implications that aren't good if you do it wrong. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:55.279 Recognizing the other needs that people have, such as worrying about the basis of their assets to save on income taxes, trying to save their assets from long-term care costs to what to do with their retirement accounts and how best to use them. 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:11.359 Those are all things that are challenging, and you have to be able to be very light on your feet to move from one to the other so that when you're talking with a client, you recognize that they have a particular need that they might not even recognize that they have. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:13.920 Yeah, that makes perfect sense, right? 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:18.400 They come in thinking they have one need, but then as you think about it, you realize there may be other things. 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.559 You have to be able to move them to the different things that can help them. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:23.839 Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.240 Do you mind if we shift the conversation a little bit? 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:33.920 Because I mentioned in the opening that you've been very active in a number of community organizations, particularly in the Greater Rochester area. 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.599 Can you talk a bit about that deep commitment to community service? 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.359 Yeah, I have a theory on working in that type of thing. 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.440 It what you don't want to do is take on too much. 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.400 When I was early in my career, I was generally on maybe three boards at a time. 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.880 And that may be too much. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:03.119 And I think what you want to accomplish on a board is to, well, I should back up, involve with an organization with the goal of getting on the board. 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:03.599 Right. 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:10.720 And so you can get on a lot of organizations and be on the board, but you want to be able to make an impact, I think. 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.279 I always strove to be on a board. 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:18.880 I became president of most organizations that I was involved with for a while. 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.319 There's a couple that I'm particularly interested in in Rochester. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:27.359 One is the Seneca Park Zoo Society, and the other is Lifespan of Greater Rochester. 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:32.640 I'm trustee emeritus of both, and I've been involved with each for over 35 years. 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:43.680 Now, why I chose those, I really, when I'm asked by young attorneys what they should do, I kind of say, have at least two boards or two organizations that you're interested in. 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:47.279 I think you need to have an interest in order to want to do it. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:47.920 Yeah, so true. 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.519 And to spend the time on it. 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.799 I chose one organization that was kind of one of the crown jewels of the community. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:02.559 Uh crown jewels are like the philharmonic or the museums or the theaters or the zoo in this case. 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:11.039 Uh I also wanted to be on one that was more socially oriented, that would be helpful to some phase of society. 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:25.039 And I chose Lifespan, which is an organization that is oriented towards the elderly issues and the aged and provides actually, it's become quite nationally recognized for its programs against elder abuse and things like that. 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.480 So I think in order to put the time in, you need to have some kind of a passion for the organization. 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.279 And also choose well. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:43.920 You want you are in business and you are trying to put yourself out there, lawyer is to be recognized uh in the community. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:21:11.680 So if you can not only benefit an organization that you want to really benefit, yeah, uh, but if you can also become recognized as a leader of that organization and you're involved with other people in the community who are what I would call maybe drivers of the community or or some of the people who are important to the community, then you really become part of that group. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:25.039 And that's not a bad place to be as a young lawyer as you're aging and as you get older in a community, to be part of a recognized group that is helping the community become a better place to live. 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:30.000 And in both cases, lifespan and the zoo really help this community. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:35.519 And I think my connection with both of those is helpful to me and has been helpful to me. 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:45.759 Lifespan in particular, because there's a natural bridge from what they do to what I do, which is to most of my clients, as I am,

have gotten old. 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:49.519 And I found that lifespan has been very helpful to them. 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:53.680 And I've called on my friends at Lifespan to really help some of my clients. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.759 It's been a nice opportunity. 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:12.319 And it's also great as a lawyer, you know, when we have obviously we provide legal services, but to have other resources for our clients and for you, particularly in your area, you know, knowing what lifespan provides and being able to connect clients to them is another resource for them. 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.559 It's been helpful, absolutely. 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:24.079 And I have to say that they're much older now, but when they were little, my kids uh we would bring them out to that to the Seneca Park Zoo and um enjoy time there as well. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.799 So that is truly a great family experience. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.400 And there's I love animals and I like the family experience. 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.640 So that that was my attraction to the zoo. 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:39.519 Whenever I go to a city, for one reason or another, I try to make time to go see the city zoo. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:43.680 A lot of times just to compare it to ours and see what we need to do, make it better. 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.119 But I like the zoos. 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:46.960 Yeah, that's fantastic. 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:56.160 Well, I mean, you talked about part of this, but why is it particularly important for attorneys to give back to the communities where they live in practice? 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:06.640 I think a lawyer is is probably viewed in a lot of communities as being someone who can and should make things happen in a positive way. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:06.880 Yeah. 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:16.079 I mean, quite obviously that isn't the case always with lawyers, but many lawyers are involved with business activities and corporations. 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:21.759 Lawyers are always involved in municipal issues, things that are happening in government. 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:22.160 Yep. 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:28.799 So, governor lawyers are always present where things need to be done or are being done. 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:35.200 And I think that you just, and I don't know what there is about lawyers that maybe makes them do that. 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:39.119 It's more than just being out there and trying to get clients. 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.039 It ought to be something more than that. 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:48.240 It ought to be where you feel like you want to really be a positive force in the place that you live. 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.759 Because lawyers are in a position to be a positive force. 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.519 They know a lot of people. 00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:03.359 A lot of organizations I'm on, I always end up on the governance committee, which means to go and try and find new board members because I know a lot of people. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:10.799 So lawyers can open up doors for these organizations, and knows they know a lot of people for fundraising. 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:11.359 Sure. 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.480 Um, and that's important for any organization. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:29.359 So I think lawyers have a particularly good opportunity to help these organizations, and they should because the lawyer is part of the community, and the better the community, I think the better the practice will be. 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:29.920 Yes. 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:43.039 And if you're helping an organization and helping a community be better, people will come to you uh because they recognize that you are an important part of what they want in the community that they want to live in. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:43.359 Yeah. 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:48.160 So I just think that it's another way of saying giving back to the community. 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.279 And that's that's almost the same wording that I use for my wealthier clients. 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.720 That there's a lot of clients that just hold on to their money and they don't need it. 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:09.680 And I promote a lot of the organizations in town, as charitable organizations, to clients, and and basically the mantra is you know, give back to the community. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:14.880 So the lawyers' time in dealing with these organizations is a way of giving back to the community. 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.480 Yeah, it's very important. 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:26.240 I know mentorship is also important to you, and I've seen you know, some of the folks that you've mentored over the years and then the new crop that you're going to be mentoring. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.720 So I guess maybe we should close out with a question. 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:34.400 So, what advice would you give to a law student looking to practice trust and estates law? 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.519 Well, I have to start out by saying I love mentoring young lawyers. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:39.839 Yeah. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:52.400 And one of the things that I'm very happy to see happening to me now coming to Bond is that I'm having a little bit more time to work with younger lawyers in my department. 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:52.880 Yeah. 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.119 It's it takes a while to really become good at something. 00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:25.039 And you have to really, I believe, have someone uh who's experienced a lot of things and can explain different ways of doing things, especially in how to deal with clients, because I think dealing with clients is a very big part of a TE practice and guiding clients to the proper result of what they need for their plan as it relates to assets, taxes, and their children and family, all of that. 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.559 So what do you tell a young lawyer as far as getting there? 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:50.559 I think spend

time on becoming familiar with tax law, with the basic procedures in the court, take opportunities to actually work on difficult aspects of the practice, such as doing an estate tax return for a large estate, doing a difficult accounting. 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:58.400 The more of these things that you do, you'll become more comfortable with and you'll be able to supervise others down the road. 00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.319 A lot of this type of training has to come from the firm. 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:08.000 I mean, a young lawyer can't just go out and just say, I'm gonna do a tax return. 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:13.920 Someone has to recognize that the young lawyer needs that and give it to the young lawyer. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:26.880 So that may mean the young lawyer has to be a squeaky wheel in a firm and make sure that the people who are doing this work are willing to give it to the young lawyer. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:36.559 And the young lawyer needs to recognize all of the various parts of this TE puzzle they have to work on because there's an awful lot, there's a lot to it. 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:37.759 That's great advice. 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:39.839 I mean, it's about building that relationship, right? 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:48.799 The person who wants to mentor and being engaged as the junior person and interested and curious and excited and doing the work to learn. 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.440 It's a it's both parts are needed. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:28:10.000 And I will tell the young lawyer when they take on work like that, in order to do a good job, think of the person giving them work as the client and make sure the job is done like they would do for a client and uh do the best job possible for that, and then work will come back to them. 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.119 Yeah, I agree. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:11.839 That's terrific. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.359 Well, I thanks, Buzz, so much. 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:15.599 Thank you for joining us on the podcast today. 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:24.319 It's been really a pleasure to get to know you since this conversation started, but to speak with you today and learn more about your practice and your incredible career. 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:29.200 So I hope you'll come back and talk to us again, maybe about some tax laws or something like that. 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.359 Well, Kim, I enjoy this very much. 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.279 And it was a new experience for me. 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.960 So I look forward to maybe doing some more podcasts. 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:39.119 Anything that comes up, I'm here. 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.640 I I appreciate that. 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.599 Thank you. 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.000 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Legally Bond. 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:56.240 If you're listening and have any questions for me, want to hear from someone at the firm, or have a suggestion for a future topic, please email us at legally bond at bsk.com. 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.720 Also, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Legally Bond wherever podcasts are downloaded. 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.799 Until our next talk, be well. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.720 Bond Shenick and King has prepared this communication to present only general information. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:17.119 This is not intended as legal advice, nor should you consider it as such. 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.279 You should not act or decline to act based upon the contents. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:27.039 While we try to make sure that the information is complete and accurate, laws can change quickly. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:33.519 You should always formally engage a lawyer of your choosing before taking actions which have legal consequences. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:42.799 For information about our communication, firm, practice areas, and attorneys, visit our website, bsk.com. 00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.119 This is attorney advertising.