Roundtable_026 - The Internet's Black October: täielik transkriptsioon

because i don't know what the what the solution is and i'm curious solution is yeah i want to i 67 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,920 want to give it to you and then we can play around with it again because there's like so much that's 68 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,880 better about it but it still just feels off in this particular way so we'll get into it afterward 69 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:54,380 but stick stick around so we can chat um uh steve uh welcome welcome back brother how you been 70 00:04:54,380 --> 00:04:58,680 and talk to you all month i want to go back to the i'm by the way i talked to my wife i'm gonna 71 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,880 come back to the meetup i'm gonna see you guys sometime yeah jump in man i'm gonna come hang out 72 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,420 and it's been like a year dude i've been pretty good but um i need to ask for a confession booth 73 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:17,960 my my in the confession booth oh yeah okay i've committed a uh a big a bitcoin sin i've um sold 74 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:23,1000 large amount of bitcoin to put a down payment on a house this is judgment and uh you just bought a 75 00:05:23,1000 --> 00:05:28,600 i know where i went wrong i know i went wrong it's the whole like getting married and deciding 76 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,280 to have kids thing oh yeah that was the thing that got me full shit coin so like 77 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:38,700 dude to be a good bitcoiner just to clarify do you have chairs in the view 78 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:46,240 yeah i got one oh god i'm so sorry oh my god you're beyond beyond salvation 79 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:54,380 also um i probably need to be forgiven for how i acted towards the mortgage lender who was just 80 00:05:54,380 --> 00:06:03,040 kyc raping me like to death it's amazing i don't know if it's the same in italy but like trying to 81 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:11,740 get a loan for a house in the U S they want like your blood samples, your DNA. They want to know 82 00:06:11,740 --> 00:06:19,640 all of your accounts and your entire history of everything. Dude, I'm surprised this worked. So 83 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:27,320 yeah, we need all of your accounts at all of your financial things, all of your credit cards, 84 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,880 all of your banking accounts, all of your exchanges, all of your retirement accounts, 85 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,140 like stock trading, like everything. 86 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:41,000 And I got up the courage to say like, yeah, that's not going to happen. 87 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:49,900 I was like, I'm going to give you guys what I think you need to prove that I'm worth it. 88 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:50,260 Yeah. 89 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,440 You can tell me if that works or not, or I'm going to use somebody else. 90 00:06:56,540 --> 00:06:59,940 Like they actually went for, I mean, like, really, you think I'm going to give you every 91 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:02,200 Bitcoin exchange I've ever logged into. 92 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:05,620 Like, I mean, it's just not happening. 93 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:08,740 Let me say something very out of character. 94 00:07:08,980 --> 00:07:11,040 I think that KYC is not only dangerous, 95 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,720 but also economically retarded 96 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,280 because the reason we have money 97 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,680 is basically to dispense vendors 98 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:18,860 from knowing their customers. 99 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,420 But if there is one market 100 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:24,960 where some level of Orwellian surveillance 101 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,400 may make some sense, 102 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:28,480 is credit market, 103 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,380 because it's the only case in which they really have to know. 104 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,780 I mean, they have to assess the risk. 105 00:07:33,780 --> 00:07:37,480 So if I'm lending you some money, 106 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,040 some level of nosiness is economically rational, I think. 107 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,860 But it's correct that they don't need anything 108 00:07:45,860 --> 00:07:50,060 which is beyond your credit history, basically. 109 00:07:50,180 --> 00:07:53,960 And that's the crazy thing about it is people don't recognize 110 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,860 this is another one of those things that's so deeply tied 111 00:07:56,860 --> 00:08:00,380 where the structure of society is so deeply tied to how money works. 112 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,080 If most of your money is created as credit, 113 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,000 how could you possibly have a world without a massive Orwellian surveillance system? 114 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Credit is surveillance. 115 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,820 You have to have KYC. 116 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,860 And so if your money is fractionalized by default, the simple way, 117 00:08:17,860 --> 00:08:24,180 without even the leverage and the next layer and the additional banking system on the banking system 118 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:28,960 that's selling leverage tokens as their own debt money. 119 00:08:29,660 --> 00:08:32,680 If 90% of the money is literally created as debt 120 00:08:32,680 --> 00:08:34,340 in a fractional reserve system, 121 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,620 from the standard methodology, 122 00:08:37,620 --> 00:08:40,100 that means 90% of all economic activity 123 00:08:40,100 --> 00:08:43,100 has to be surveilled down to everybody's butt crack 124 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:48,060 and DNA scan and banking history and mortgage history 125 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:50,960 and every financial choice in retirement. 126 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,520 It is ubiquitously tied. 127 00:08:53,520 --> 00:09:01,800 It is irrevocably attached to a surveillance, a total surveillance system if all money is created as credit. 128 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:12,200 If all money, if 90% of money is actually savings, it's actually just not

arbitrarily printed and created into debt, well, then that's 90% of economic activity. 129 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,900 Did you have to give a shit about the history? 130 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,540 You have the proof. 131 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:16,380 It's the money. 132 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:19,440 You hand it the fuck over and you own the thing that they give you. 133 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,480 So they are the one in the same. 134 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:29,140 The credit system and the surveillance apparatus Leviathan are the same mechanism and they are indistinct. 135 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:36,080 You cannot detach them from each other because the credit system doesn't work without the surveillance and the surveillance is supported by the credit system. 136 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:51,860 So anyway, I was just going to say like one thing that that brings up, though, is I think you've been thinking about lately with all like the paperization and all the layers being added on top of Bitcoin is that even in a total free market, like even like without the government, 137 00:09:51,860 --> 00:10:04,340 You can't stop private individuals from making contracts with each other for custody and effectively creating paper Bitcoin. 138 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,060 I mean, paper Bitcoin would exist without any kind of government institute. 139 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:10,760 It's just like a private thing. 140 00:10:10,820 --> 00:10:15,940 And maybe this is like the theory for open money or free money or whatever that is. 141 00:10:15,940 --> 00:10:23,000 but it's like, I feel like the world that you talk about, Guy, that's my ideal dream world too. 142 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:30,800 But realistically, because paper money is free to make and no one can stop making paperizations 143 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:37,260 of the assets, it's just, it's always going to be that even whether you're a sound money basis, 144 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:42,940 there's always going to be this paper layer that forms on top of it that is unfortunately probably 145 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:45,340 going to be pretty prominent, like even without a government. 146 00:10:45,340 --> 00:11:05,260 Absolutely. Absolutely. But the question is whether or not it can be systemically, the cost of it can be systemically socialized or it has to be isolated into the institution. Mt. Gox goes under when they promise more Bitcoin than exists. FTX dies when they promise more Bitcoin than exists. And it's not even a very long timeline. 147 00:11:05,260 --> 00:11:31,760 It takes a little bit of Reddit sleuthing and some Twitter posts to go viral for it to be a month before they're freezing accounts to keep everybody's money safe. So it will always exist. There's always a risk of arbitrage. And there's always a price of arbitrage for how much capital you have versus how much you think you're going to have in the future. And you can sell that. But you and the people who trust you are the ones that should have to pay for that. 148 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:38,160 When you get to create it through a fractional banking system systemically, you get to hide it in everybody else's money. 149 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:49,700 And so your retirement account and your wage and your groceries end up paying the bill for somebody else's incompetence or JP Morgan's 40 to 1 fucking leverage on every dollar they have in the bank. 150 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,280 You don't get to find out where the fraud is actually coming from. 151 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:59,160 And everybody pays for it instead of the fraudsters or the people who are irresponsibly leveraging themselves. 152 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:00,900 The whole thing goes together. 153 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:24,260 So you're 100% right. I'm not even arguing with you, but there's a vast difference between localized risk of committing more capital than you have or obligating yourself to more capital than you have and systemically being able to defraud the money and everybody has to pay for it even when they don't know where or how they're paying for it. 154 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,940 But yeah, there'll be paper money in every system. Yeah, without a doubt. 155 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:36,380 Yeah, the risk would eventually find an equilibrium with the compensation of the risk. 156 00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:45,360 When you have a few FTX style bankruptcies, you have bank runs, you have chain failures. 157 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:51,600 And if you don't have a bailout made by stealing money from other unaffected or 158 00:12:51,600 --> 00:13:08,244 unresponsible people you do have at least a decision loop which stays with people with skin in the game So we can assume that in front market the credit risk cannot get to the hypertrophic 159 00:13:08,244 --> 00:13:15,004 level that you get when you put a violent mafia in charge of robbing people that manage 160 00:13:15,004 --> 00:13:19,224 risk well in order to compensate and bail out people that mismanage risk. 161 00:13:19,724 --> 00:13:24,004 Yeah, I saw that Michael Saylor at least added a third exchange. 162 00:13:24,004 --> 00:13:32,204 And I think his paper Bitcoin is split between three exchanges now instead of just Coinbase and Fidelity. 163 00:13:32,484 --> 00:13:33,264 There's one more. 164 00:13:33,724 --> 00:13:34,204 That's responsible. 165 00:13:34,524 --> 00:13:35,464 I like seeing that. 166 00:13:35,924 --> 00:13:45,844 Like, I think we're kind of reliant upon some kind of competition and mistrust between the institutions and the exchanges. 167 00:13:45,844 --> 00:13:54,164 Like when we were in that position where all the ETFs were and all the, you know, corporate entities were using Coinbase and nobody was ever withdrawing. 168 00:13:54,344 --> 00:13:59,844 I just don't think we would ever, it would ever get revealed, you know, if they were rehypothecating. 169 00:14:00,644 --> 00:14:10,064 But yeah, I mean, I'm starting to see a little bit of a

competition amongst custodians and, you know, that helps a little. 170 00:14:10,064 --> 00:14:29,404 Well, dude, when TLS and PHP are getting like scaled 9.8 rated vulnerabilities across 70% of the web, like you sure as shit better be separating it up between exchanges if you hold a substantial amount that you have to have in a custodian. 171 00:14:30,184 --> 00:14:31,884 And don't put it in your cold card. 172 00:14:34,284 --> 00:14:36,304 Or at least have multisig. 173 00:14:36,484 --> 00:14:37,924 Dude, multisig is a superpower. 174 00:14:37,924 --> 00:14:42,004 with Ledger and Trezor this month, 175 00:14:42,004 --> 00:14:44,904 both being hit with the supply chain hack. 176 00:14:46,784 --> 00:14:49,404 And Binance just got hit two days ago. 177 00:14:50,064 --> 00:14:52,584 Liquid got hit this month for billions of dollars. 178 00:14:52,724 --> 00:14:54,024 Binance was 6.43. 179 00:14:54,804 --> 00:15:01,604 And it was something like 3 billion got frozen by, 180 00:15:01,864 --> 00:15:07,004 it was Tether, Circle, so the stablecoin companies, 181 00:15:07,004 --> 00:15:16,144 companies yeah um ripple the decentralized ripple um uh arbitrum the arbitum whatever 182 00:15:16,144 --> 00:15:23,484 whatever those layer twos on ethereum are and optimism um so funds got stolen or frozen across 183 00:15:23,484 --> 00:15:29,364 all that that were attached to the uh uh the hack but one of the crazy things about this story is it 184 00:15:29,364 --> 00:15:37,724 seems like the guy or the perpetrator who did this was aware of this and were expecting that 185 00:15:37,724 --> 00:15:45,684 response. And they actually put a shit ton of this capital into DeFi. And then so they locked 186 00:15:45,684 --> 00:15:53,804 it up as collateral in into the DeFi networks and then took out loans in Ethereum and ran away with 187 00:15:53,804 --> 00:16:01,044 the Ethereum. And so now the institutions, all the stable coins are freezing capital that's 188 00:16:01,044 --> 00:16:07,484 collateralized inside a network with other. He literally socialized the costs by putting the 189 00:16:07,484 --> 00:16:13,144 stolen funds into a giant pool of a whole bunch of people are leveraged with collateral and basically 190 00:16:13,144 --> 00:16:17,464 shot up the leverage because now it's fake collateral, right? Now that's not real collateral 191 00:16:17,464 --> 00:16:24,044 anymore because binance wants it back um and then he walked away with the ethereum um which is 192 00:16:24,044 --> 00:16:30,764 crazy i don't know exactly how much it was um i i saw somebody looking at or trying to tabulate 193 00:16:30,764 --> 00:16:37,704 um how much it appeared had happened that way uh but that's that's clever some of that's somebody 194 00:16:37,704 --> 00:16:43,124 who kind of knows what they're up against and had a plan because they did that really quick 195 00:16:43,124 --> 00:16:45,864 but that's pretty nuts 196 00:16:45,864 --> 00:16:47,644 yep yep 197 00:16:47,644 --> 00:16:49,244 this to be honest 198 00:16:49,244 --> 00:16:51,324 from the point of view of 199 00:16:51,324 --> 00:16:54,004 still manning shit coins 200 00:16:54,004 --> 00:16:56,204 I think that this would be a good 201 00:16:56,204 --> 00:16:58,144 battle test for stuff like 202 00:16:58,144 --> 00:16:58,584 Ethereum 203 00:16:58,584 --> 00:17:02,124 usually the criticism we have 204 00:17:02,124 --> 00:17:04,124 is twofold one is about 205 00:17:04,124 --> 00:17:06,204 digital scarcity if everybody can 206 00:17:06,204 --> 00:17:08,304 print money every time you create the shit coins 207 00:17:08,304 --> 00:17:09,544 you have infinite supply 208 00:17:09,544 --> 00:17:11,944 but the second was always about centralization 209 00:17:11,944 --> 00:17:23,224 The fact that Ethereum was controlled by a couple of insiders like during the DAO hack, when insiders lost money, they just changed the consensus unilaterally in order to get money back. 210 00:17:23,684 --> 00:17:28,104 Now, it would be interesting to see if now they still try. 211 00:17:28,604 --> 00:17:31,324 In theory, all the centralization vectors are still there. 212 00:17:31,324 --> 00:17:35,524 You still don't have validating notes, full notes. 213 00:17:35,524 --> 00:17:41,784 You still have people using out of date, people relying on a centralized foundation with a trademark. 214 00:17:42,524 --> 00:17:50,384 So just like in the case of Ethereum Classic, whatever is Ethereum is defined by a very centralized power structure. 215 00:17:50,804 --> 00:18:01,684 So in theory, people affected by this could make a phone call and just Binance could just make a phone call and get the Ethereum Foundation to roll back the chain again. 216 00:18:01,684 --> 00:18:11,524 But now I guess that the narrative of the decentralization of Circus is a little bit more advanced than it was back in 2016, 2015. 217 00:18:12,204 --> 00:18:14,304 So it's interesting to see. 218 00:18:14,564 --> 00:18:22,664 Well, and my guess is that the DAO hack or whatever was rolled back because a bunch of the founders were impacted. 219 00:18:23,604 --> 00:18:28,164 And in this case, the founders probably have nothing. 220 00:18:28,364 --> 00:18:30,564 There's no reason for them to care. 221 00:18:30,564 --> 00:18:35,304 and it would come at the cost of the narratives 222 00:18:35,304 --> 00:18:38,224 that they're trying to promote, 223 00:18:38,364 --> 00:18:40,624 that their coin is decentralized or whatever. 224 00:18:41,224 --> 00:18:43,164 But it's still astonishing to me 225 00:18:43,164 --> 00:18:47,584 how you had to freeze a bunch of your Ethereum 226 00:18:47,584 --> 00:18:50,404 to like, I don't know, something to do with, 227 00:18:50,604 --> 00:18:53,204 I mean, if you want to mine or earn 228 00:18:53,204 --> 00:18:56,004 whatever the staking revenue is, 229 00:18:56,024 --> 00:18:57,084 you have to hand it over to somebody 230 00:18:57,084 --> 00:18:59,224 that has enough to do that. 231 00:18:59,224 -->

00:19:02,644 like you have to hand it to an exchange or whatever so there's all these centralizing 232 00:19:02,644 --> 00:19:07,364 forces in ethereum anyway there was also something where like your balance had to be 233 00:19:07,364 --> 00:19:13,164 frozen for a certain amount of time to make it to the next you know like whatever the next update 234 00:19:13,164 --> 00:19:17,484 they were going to do like if you wanted some return the glacier and the big freeze 235 00:19:17,484 --> 00:19:24,024 yeah whatever like and all i could think is like dude if they're telling you they're telling you 236 00:19:24,024 --> 00:19:29,004 you have to freeze your money for a certain number of years this is this is like an exit scam like 237 00:19:29,004 --> 00:19:33,364 this is what you know this is just like the stock market where they that's what they had to do in 238 00:19:33,364 --> 00:19:40,864 uh uh richard hart's what's the what was the coin what was that oh yeah hex yeah yeah yeah 239 00:19:40,864 --> 00:19:45,944 yeah i don't know push push chain a push chain yeah he i mean he created like five of them but 240 00:19:45,944 --> 00:19:50,244 but that was like the whole thing is the scheme was like locking things up so that there couldn't 241 00:19:50,244 --> 00:19:55,624 be sell pressure to get the return on the new thing so it was like how quickly can we lock up 242 00:19:55,624 --> 00:20:02,884 coins to get the new inflation so that the founders can exit so that richard can get super 243 00:20:02,884 --> 00:20:07,684 rich and what was crazy is that it was like literally there was a foundation for his clown 244 00:20:07,684 --> 00:20:13,524 coin and and there was like an address and then they like found out that like that address was his 245 00:20:13,524 --> 00:20:17,744 address that like he had control over and then he would just deflect like it was the foundation 246 00:20:17,744 --> 00:20:22,344 there's policies and all this stuff it's like bitch it's your wallet like you know everybody's 247 00:20:22,344 --> 00:20:25,224 just locking up their money by just sending it to Richard. 248 00:20:26,024 --> 00:20:28,484 But anyway, shit coins be shit coin. 249 00:20:31,464 --> 00:20:34,224 Anyway, don't you think that we are in a situation 250 00:20:34,224 --> 00:20:37,824 in which the world seems like immune 251 00:20:37,824 --> 00:20:41,924 to actual realization of collapse? 252 00:20:42,484 --> 00:20:44,564 It's like if a few years back, 253 00:20:45,004 --> 00:20:47,404 a collapse of something like Binance 254 00:20:47,404 --> 00:20:51,364 would have created some level of panic, worry, concern. 255 00:20:51,364 --> 00:21:01,744 Now we have the complete collapse of the geopolitical equilibrium, complete collapse of any kind of metric or long-term government debt, complete collapse. 256 00:21:02,004 --> 00:21:12,824 And even if we have the collapse of the internet and basically PHP and TSL certificates, and then you have Binance, 6 billion, and nobody can

care. 257 00:21:12,824 --> 00:21:18,744 it's like we are beyond like this poster reality situation in which there is no trigger anymore 258 00:21:18,744 --> 00:21:24,924 that can really trigger panic we already did this four times this is just the fifth time 259 00:21:24,924 --> 00:21:29,944 i'm gonna go buy groceries i'm out of bananas you think it's because there's like nowhere to run 260 00:21:29,944 --> 00:21:35,504 like um yeah like people would say like run to gold but everyone knows what you mean by run to 261 00:21:35,504 --> 00:21:43,704 gold is just run to some paper gold run to black rock um yeah it's like uh there's no panic because 262 00:21:43,704 --> 00:21:49,324 like if you panic what do you do you there's nowhere to go there's no doors like there's no 263 00:21:49,324 --> 00:21:56,464 there's no room to leave yeah there is no nowhere to run there is also this is desensitization to 264 00:21:56,464 --> 00:22:02,924 to anything basically it's too much happening too often and then your i think your alarm 265 00:22:02,924 --> 00:22:04,944 circuits just get 266 00:22:04,944 --> 00:22:06,804 I see it on myself as well 267 00:22:06,804 --> 00:22:09,164 it's just been blaring all day so you just take the battery out 268 00:22:09,164 --> 00:22:11,684 yeah exactly 269 00:22:11,684 --> 00:22:13,084 it's like 270 00:22:13,084 --> 00:22:14,604 a Tarantino movie 271 00:22:14,604 --> 00:22:17,044 the first cut head you see 272 00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:18,384 the blood and maybe after 273 00:22:18,384 --> 00:22:21,144 1000 cut head you see 274 00:22:21,144 --> 00:22:23,044 the blood spilling you don't care that 275 00:22:23,044 --> 00:22:24,964 much anymore you get desensitized 276 00:22:24,964 --> 00:22:26,184 it's just like man that guy had 277 00:22:26,184 --> 00:22:28,424 more blood in him than the last one 278 00:22:28,424 --> 00:22:30,164 just like shot right out of the top 279 00:22:30,164 --> 00:22:31,144 that's crazy 280 00:22:31,144 --> 00:22:37,944 yeah i'm gonna get a pastry i was absolutely shocked when the price did not move at all 281 00:22:37,944 --> 00:22:44,164 with the cold card hack and then um with this binance hack i guess it moved maybe three or 282 00:22:44,164 --> 00:22:49,944 four percent or something but still like not very much and honestly it was on trend like we've just 283 00:22:49,944 --> 00:22:55,504 been we've just been correcting for like a month or two and it was just like it was just like it's 284 00:22:55,504 --> 00:23:01,644 going down and then Binance happened. It was like, oh, oh, I didn't do anything of any consequence. 285 00:23:01,644 --> 00:23:07,004 It was just like, oh, it also continued to go down a little bit. And, you know, six feet. 286 00:23:07,184 --> 00:23:13,184 Okay. But doesn't it doesn't make you think like that's that's sometimes price of things 287 00:23:13,184 --> 00:23:19,584 is just not related to what is what it is the price of. It's kind of like we're in a GameStop 288 00:23:19,584 --> 00:23:25,064 situation where like when GameStop was doing crazy things, the price of GameStop and the company 289 00:23:25,064 --> 00:23:27,744 GameStop had nothing to do with each other, right? 290 00:23:28,104 --> 00:23:29,564 There was just games over here. 291 00:23:29,564 --> 00:23:32,104 And then the company was over here and they're like unrelated. 292 00:23:32,104 --> 00:23:36,304 Like, does it feel like we've gotten that way in Bitcoin now where it's like the price 293 00:23:36,304 --> 00:23:38,404 of Bitcoin is unrelated to what Bitcoin is? 294 00:23:38,664 --> 00:23:41,164 I think there's two pieces of that is one is that's what fiat does. 295 00:23:41,344 --> 00:23:43,704 It divorces the price of everything from reality. 296 00:23:43,704 --> 00:23:47,544 And we're talking about dollar price and the credit is the thing that matters. 297 00:23:47,664 --> 00:23:53,904 But then also I think Bitcoin is big enough and in enough places now. 298 00:23:53,984 --> 00:23:54,884 I mean, it's still very small. 299 00:23:55,064 --> 00:24:01,384 in the grand scheme, but it's also big enough that any one thing, as much as the cold card 300 00:24:01,384 --> 00:24:06,964 affected me personally because of the people that I knew and the messages that I answered 301 00:24:06,964 --> 00:24:12,644 and the whole night that I spent getting cold cards out of all of my setups, I didn't think 302 00:24:12,644 --> 00:24:16,864 about like, oh God, should I sell Bitcoin? You know what I mean? Like it doesn't, my 303 00:24:16,864 --> 00:24:22,124 perception of Bitcoin as valuable did not fundamentally change. I was just scared of 304 00:24:22,124 --> 00:24:23,824 the hardware while it's sitting in front of me. 305 00:24:24,204 --> 00:24:25,564 And I think most people don't know. 306 00:24:25,944 --> 00:24:27,264 You talk to a Disney money, 307 00:24:27,344 --> 00:24:28,864 know that cold card happened, 308 00:24:29,504 --> 00:24:29,764 you know, 309 00:24:29,784 --> 00:24:31,584 like anybody outside of our circle, 310 00:24:32,104 --> 00:24:35,304 our circle is shockingly a small part of, 311 00:24:35,444 --> 00:24:35,564 you know, 312 00:24:35,684 --> 00:24:37,464 Bitcoiners are a tiny part of Bitcoin now. 313 00:24:38,924 --> 00:24:40,604 So that scares me, 314 00:24:40,704 --> 00:24:40,824 man. 315 00:24:41,864 --> 00:24:42,064 Well, 316 00:24:42,444 --> 00:24:43,184 I also, 317 00:24:43,724 --> 00:24:44,124 you know, 318 00:24:44,124 --> 00:24:49,524 it's not that unusual for the news to be bad in a bear in a bull market and 319 00:24:49,524 --> 00:24:51,044 the news to be good in the bear. 320 00:24:51,044 --> 00:24:57,184 like we we've had yeah cycles previously where that's usually how it behaves right yeah yeah bad 321 00:24:57,184 --> 00:25:02,044 bad news is dominating the the cycle but we're in a bull market and it doesn't really do anything 322 00:25:02,044 --> 00:25:08,384 and some of the i mean these are real events right like so it's not it's not

just like oh 323 00:25:08,384 --> 00:25:13,344 china banned bitcoin or whatever you know it's not the the made-up stuff that we've had previously 324 00:25:13,344 --> 00:25:21,544 but you know that doesn't change the fact that if you have a real event the news wants to amplify 325 00:25:21,544 --> 00:25:26,464 like the people that are buying want to amplify the bad things so that they can get liquidity to 326 00:25:26,464 --> 00:25:32,704 buy more i mean so we're in a we're in a buying cycle and i think that that's just you know how 327 00:25:32,704 --> 00:25:37,384 it's going to be honestly the fact that it's not moving a lot is really pretty bullish because that 328 00:25:37,384 --> 00:25:43,924 means you know maybe there's a lot of buying pressure um and i'd also just say on the notion 329 00:25:43,924 --> 00:25:49,084 that like bitcoiners are a minority of the people in bitcoin is that like it always had to be that 330 00:25:49,084 --> 00:25:54,724 way and i felt more and more and i've i feel like i've talked about this i did an episode on this 331 00:25:54,724 --> 00:26:08,349 like five years ago or some shit but the thing that we inevitably will call bitcoin in the end like the the dominant network but stays through if it remains decentralized it will necessarily be the thing that has pissed the most people off 332 00:26:08,589 --> 00:26:14,809 that has not let every individual group do a particular thing that they wanted to do 333 00:26:14,809 --> 00:26:20,009 because they couldn't control it or they couldn't be the ones making the decisions for it. 334 00:26:20,569 --> 00:26:25,109 And thus, Bitcoin will ultimately be the thing that makes the most people unhappy 335 00:26:25,109 --> 00:26:26,529 with how Bitcoin has turned out. 336 00:26:27,489 --> 00:26:31,949 because everybody will have their vision of the way it's supposed to be. 337 00:26:32,009 --> 00:26:32,709 And if it's decentralized, 338 00:26:32,709 --> 00:26:35,249 they're not going to have enough influence to get what they want. 339 00:26:35,889 --> 00:26:39,009 And I think that's why the people I talked to in core or have been 340 00:26:39,009 --> 00:26:39,669 disheartened. 341 00:26:40,029 --> 00:26:40,629 They're just like, 342 00:26:40,669 --> 00:26:42,189 I'm depressed because like nobody, 343 00:26:43,249 --> 00:26:45,169 but I had private conversation with people just like, 344 00:26:45,209 --> 00:26:45,509 this is, 345 00:26:45,649 --> 00:26:46,149 this sucks. 346 00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:49,809 Like everybody is like attacking us and all this stuff. 347 00:26:49,809 --> 00:26:52,969 And then we have these conversations on the round table and mechanics up 348 00:26:52,969 --> 00:26:53,169 here. 349 00:26:53,249 --> 00:26:56,569 And we talk about how like core is lost and corrupted. 350 00:26:56,569 --> 00:27:00,349 it. And then I've just had so many conversations from so many different people and everybody's 351 00:27:00,349 --> 00:27:06,329 just like mad that it's not,

it's not working the way that they want it to work. But so many 352 00:27:06,329 --> 00:27:10,909 of them disagree about the way it should work. And it's like, well, yeah, it's not, it is, 353 00:27:10,909 --> 00:27:17,269 it should piss everybody off. If it's actually, I think that's somewhat of an indication that 354 00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:21,609 it might be working, but you know, that's kind of a vague generalization, but I don't 355 00:27:21,609 --> 00:27:23,949 know. I've always saw it that, seen it that way. 356 00:27:26,569 --> 00:27:28,389 Well, then just do telemissions. 357 00:27:29,469 --> 00:27:30,709 Just do telemissions. 358 00:27:31,049 --> 00:27:31,849 Just do telemissions. 359 00:27:31,849 --> 00:27:32,829 Just make everybody mad. 360 00:27:32,989 --> 00:27:33,669 Yeah, you piss off. 361 00:27:33,789 --> 00:27:35,109 I'll make the most people mad. 362 00:27:35,469 --> 00:27:39,089 Yeah, maximize the people you piss off the most. 363 00:27:41,689 --> 00:27:42,409 Yeah, same. 364 00:27:42,569 --> 00:27:44,029 Stop some of your agents, man. 365 00:27:44,329 --> 00:27:45,429 Too many agents. 366 00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:46,769 They're working too much. 367 00:27:46,769 --> 00:27:50,049 Okay, I'm just going to tell everybody to stop everything. 368 00:27:51,229 --> 00:27:52,609 I'm going to close all the things. 369 00:27:52,609 --> 00:27:53,509 I got my agents. 370 00:27:54,349 --> 00:27:55,869 Stop hacking Coinbase. 371 00:27:55,869 --> 00:27:57,349 I'll never stop that. 372 00:27:57,349 --> 00:27:58,409 What are you talking about? 373 00:27:59,669 --> 00:28:00,429 That's not me. 374 00:28:01,349 --> 00:28:03,009 Hey, Jokerman. 375 00:28:03,329 --> 00:28:03,889 What's it? 376 00:28:04,929 --> 00:28:09,449 Did you know how Coinbase has a CBBTC token? 377 00:28:10,669 --> 00:28:11,729 Have you heard of this? 378 00:28:12,289 --> 00:28:12,609 CBBTC. 379 00:28:12,609 --> 00:28:13,109 Yeah, yeah. 380 00:28:13,209 --> 00:28:15,469 The rapid Coinbase token. 381 00:28:15,469 --> 00:28:15,709 Yeah. 382 00:28:15,709 --> 00:28:19,809 Did you know that they actually published Bitcoin addresses backing that? 383 00:28:21,969 --> 00:28:22,849 I didn't know. 384 00:28:22,889 --> 00:28:23,629 Isn't that interesting? 385 00:28:24,609 --> 00:28:24,929 Yeah. 386 00:28:24,929 --> 00:28:31,229 Like Coinbase, we hate Coinbase for not revealing Bitcoin addresses. 387 00:28:31,769 --> 00:28:34,189 And they reveal addresses for their token. 388 00:28:34,649 --> 00:28:35,889 I think that is so fascinating. 389 00:28:37,289 --> 00:28:38,589 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 390 00:28:38,589 --> 00:28:40,149 They respond to market criticism. 391 00:28:41,589 --> 00:28:41,869 Yeah. 392 00:28:43,389 --> 00:28:46,929 I think that we hate Coinbase for a series of things, 393 00:28:46,929 --> 00:28:50,629 which is not just exhausted in this. 394 00:28:50,809 --> 00:28:52,409 But yeah, this is very interesting. 395 00:28:52,409 --> 00:28:57,169 But wouldn't it be nice if we got that

sort of response from politicians or something? 396 00:28:57,329 --> 00:28:59,209 I mean, you know, like we don't even get it. 397 00:28:59,629 --> 00:29:00,229 Why would they care? 398 00:29:00,349 --> 00:29:01,949 At least Coinbase is, yeah. 399 00:29:04,309 --> 00:29:05,029 Oh, man. 400 00:29:06,009 --> 00:29:12,289 Markets are imperfect, but everything else, which is not a market, is way more imperfect. 401 00:29:12,369 --> 00:29:12,869 Way worse. 402 00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:17,109 Even the worst market actors is better than the state. 403 00:29:18,129 --> 00:29:20,249 Their prop is, you just know it. 404 00:29:20,249 --> 00:29:22,149 The proof is in the give a shit matrix. 405 00:29:22,409 --> 00:29:24,129 Is what quadrant are they in? 406 00:29:24,969 --> 00:29:26,929 Like a drunk spending their own money, 407 00:29:27,849 --> 00:29:29,969 a cracked out drunk spending their own money 408 00:29:29,969 --> 00:29:33,709 is infinitely more valuable to the worth of society, 409 00:29:33,809 --> 00:29:36,389 to the direction of economic material in society 410 00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:38,729 than a politician on a fucking committee 411 00:29:38,729 --> 00:29:40,269 spending somebody else's tax money. 412 00:29:42,469 --> 00:29:43,189 Yeah, yeah. 413 00:29:43,569 --> 00:29:44,169 Set up for Justin. 414 00:29:44,169 --> 00:29:46,249 Yeah, BTC pay server got hit. 415 00:29:47,629 --> 00:29:48,589 Very sad. 416 00:29:48,589 --> 00:29:49,949 I did not 417 00:29:49,949 --> 00:29:52,909 I was not affected by it and somehow 418 00:29:52,909 --> 00:29:54,409 that one didn't hit me 419 00:29:54,409 --> 00:29:56,509 the same way I've read a couple of 420 00:29:56,509 --> 00:29:58,909 like posts from people from 421 00:29:58,909 --> 00:30:00,929 BTC Pay, who was it that 422 00:30:00,929 --> 00:30:02,989 did the long post, like really kind of heartfelt 423 00:30:02,989 --> 00:30:03,789 post recently 424 00:30:03,789 --> 00:30:07,269 but maybe Pavalex 425 00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:07,829 maybe 426 00:30:07,829 --> 00:30:10,929 but like I feel 427 00:30:10,929 --> 00:30:12,369 for them but I guess my 428 00:30:12,369 --> 00:30:14,249 I wasn't 429 00:30:14,249 --> 00:30:17,109 my BTC Pay server has just kind of been one of those 430 00:30:17,109 --> 00:30:18,449 things that I sit aside and it just 431 00:30:18,589 --> 00:30:22,749 does its thing and I didn't have lightning on at the time I didn't have my channels open 432 00:30:22,749 --> 00:30:29,829 um because I shifted some things and had kind of sat there for a while um but I still used it for 433 00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:36,389 like basic little things but so it didn't like affect me a lot and it was kind of overshadowed 434 00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:43,069 by the cold card and all the other stuff that seemed more like direct but the bz btc pay server 435 00:30:43,069 --> 00:30:48,269 hit was pretty serious especially for anybody who's like a business that does uses that regularly 436 00:30:48,269 --> 00:30:50,969 and

had a major lightning instance. 437 00:30:52,589 --> 00:30:54,609 For me, it was very, very bad. 438 00:30:54,949 --> 00:30:56,209 I can tell you why. 439 00:30:56,349 --> 00:30:59,969 Because in Lugano, we have this payment system 440 00:30:59,969 --> 00:31:02,669 with more than 400 businesses accepting Bitcoin, 441 00:31:02,969 --> 00:31:03,829 so you can live in Bitcoin. 442 00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:04,769 Lugano is pretty good. 443 00:31:04,769 --> 00:31:08,689 And the way that was done was with a centralized server, 444 00:31:08,909 --> 00:31:10,469 which was ill-managed. 445 00:31:11,069 --> 00:31:14,169 So I basically engaged a battle of two years 446 00:31:14,169 --> 00:31:16,809 to convince people to migrate from that system 447 00:31:16,809 --> 00:31:17,849 to BTC per server. 448 00:31:18,269 --> 00:31:21,949 And we succeeded in doing that basically exactly one year ago. 449 00:31:21,949 --> 00:31:28,649 So for the first time after they set up Tether and BitFenix set up the system in 2022, 450 00:31:29,189 --> 00:31:35,489 finally in November 2025, after really annoying everybody and harassing everybody, 451 00:31:35,749 --> 00:31:38,289 I got them to move to BTCP server. 452 00:31:38,869 --> 00:31:46,309 And then in August, when the red team wrote me, well, you know, the typical Rob Hamilton meme. 453 00:31:46,569 --> 00:31:47,429 Hey, how are you? 454 00:31:47,429 --> 00:31:50,729 Can you check your PMs? 455 00:31:50,729 --> 00:31:56,229 And when they happened, we had to shut down the payments for just a few hours. 456 00:31:56,229 --> 00:32:00,229 It was patched very quickly, no loss of funds. 457 00:32:00,229 --> 00:32:07,929 But I mean, the perception was that the software that we promoted as the industry standard, 458 00:32:07,929 --> 00:32:10,929 and it was the industry standard, was still insecure. 459 00:32:10,929 --> 00:32:15,229 And what is even worse is that we have two kinds of merchants in Lugano. 460 00:32:15,229 --> 00:32:22,129 One kind are just using the point of sale produced by the municipality with Tether and Phoenix. 461 00:32:22,689 --> 00:32:28,509 And those guys, they were using this kind of externally managed BTC per server, 462 00:32:28,889 --> 00:32:33,009 custodial kind of things, and then they were getting Swiss francs. 463 00:32:33,149 --> 00:32:37,469 And those people, they just got a no touch of a couple of hours, 464 00:32:37,749 --> 00:32:40,589 and then they would get back to normal, no fund loss. 465 00:32:40,589 --> 00:32:44,089 while a few merchants, the only hardcore ones, 466 00:32:44,189 --> 00:32:47,629 the ones that we managed to convince to be really true Bitcoiner, 467 00:32:47,989 --> 00:32:52,949 they were running proper self-managed instances of BTC per server 468 00:32:52,949 --> 00:33:00,249 and some of those lost some manageable, not dramatic amount of money. 469 00:33:00,249 --> 00:33:06,329 So it was something hitting the heart of the... 470 00:33:06,329 --> 00:33:17,389 Only the people that actually follow us entirely and went to the hardcore path, they were hit more than the people that just remain with a gay solution. 471 00:33:17,389 --> 00:33:19,789 A gay solution, a faking gay solution. 472 00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:22,729 Oh, dear God. 473 00:33:23,569 --> 00:33:24,249 That hurts. 474 00:33:25,329 --> 00:33:25,809 That hurts. 475 00:33:25,989 --> 00:33:36,049 And I, you know, I didn't even notice this until recently when I was kind of pulling stuff together that happened in October. 476 00:33:36,049 --> 00:33:38,669 because this happened towards the beginning of October. 477 00:33:38,969 --> 00:33:41,469 I didn't even know until a couple days ago. 478 00:33:42,169 --> 00:33:48,089 But ARK got hit of a second layer, 479 00:33:49,209 --> 00:33:51,949 whatever their company, their liquidity. 480 00:33:52,769 --> 00:33:56,349 And they lost 0.75 Bitcoin. 481 00:33:56,589 --> 00:33:57,929 So not like a massive hack, 482 00:33:57,929 --> 00:34:02,789 but it was an exploit of the ARK service provider 483 00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:06,029 and they drained a bunch of funds out of it. 484 00:34:06,049 --> 00:34:07,949 which is kind of crazy. 485 00:34:08,289 --> 00:34:12,609 There was a blink theft as well. 486 00:34:13,569 --> 00:34:15,589 And then there was an Electrum Wallet thing 487 00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:21,949 that a malicious server could somehow tweak 488 00:34:21,949 --> 00:34:25,149 or alter the transaction and trick the user 489 00:34:25,149 --> 00:34:27,689 into thinking it needed to be RBF'd 490 00:34:27,689 --> 00:34:32,509 and then edit or change the maliciously effects 491 00:34:32,509 --> 00:34:34,669 the next transaction in the line. 492 00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:35,789 And it was like weird. 493 00:34:35,929 --> 00:34:39,909 I didn't get like explicit details on every individual piece of it. 494 00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:48,909 But it was basically that the Electrum server that you trusted could screw with what your wallet could see or do. 495 00:34:50,289 --> 00:34:53,989 And I mean, just like the list this month has just been nuts. 496 00:34:54,969 --> 00:34:55,769 Everything was broken. 497 00:34:56,009 --> 00:34:57,649 Yeah, everything was broken. 498 00:34:58,289 --> 00:35:00,909 So do we get stronger from all of this? 499 00:35:01,069 --> 00:35:02,989 No, I mean, I think so. 500 00:35:02,989 --> 00:35:04,729 Yeah, I think this is inevitable. 501 00:35:05,409 --> 00:35:14,389 Like when you open the capacity to brute force everything. 502 00:35:15,029 --> 00:35:19,669 The economics of defense and attack were very different four years ago. 503 00:35:20,089 --> 00:35:21,249 Like extremely different. 504 00:35:21,249 --> 00:35:31,049 You had to be a skilled programmer with significant capital and time to invest toward a very specific exploit. 505 00:35:31,049 --> 00:35:36,089 and looking at some particular project that you had to care about and you had to diverge your 506 00:35:36,089 --> 00:35:40,689 attention. Each

one unit of human thought had to be taken away from something else that you wanted 507 00:35:40,689 --> 00:35:48,529 to build or do and dedicated entirely to, can I break into this thing? And so, and this was a 508 00:35:48,529 --> 00:35:55,329 small subset of skilled enough engineers and software programmers who happen to have incentives 509 00:35:55,329 --> 00:36:01,289 or life choices align to have that be their commitment or their focus. 510 00:36:01,929 --> 00:36:03,649 Now you don't need the skill. 511 00:36:04,129 --> 00:36:06,149 You don't need the time. 512 00:36:07,269 --> 00:36:11,249 You can devote a hundredth or a thousandth of the amount of time 513 00:36:11,249 --> 00:36:14,389 or capital in that direction and probably find something. 514 00:36:14,809 --> 00:36:17,869 You can just get an agent to scan through a bunch of different projects 515 00:36:17,869 --> 00:36:20,829 while you're going to take a shit and find out if it finds anything 516 00:36:20,829 --> 00:36:22,729 when you come back and sit down at your computer 517 00:36:22,729 --> 00:36:24,789 and you just read an output of a prompt. 518 00:36:25,329 --> 00:36:31,389 Um, and that's like not a, that's not like a 50% change in the economics. 519 00:36:31,389 --> 00:36:36,889 That's like a 50,000% change in the economics in a matter of six months. 520 00:36:37,669 --> 00:36:43,389 You know, like that's, that's a gargantuan shift and oh shit. 521 00:36:43,449 --> 00:36:47,809 Now every hole in this giant thing is Swiss cheese that we call the internet has to be 522 00:36:47,809 --> 00:36:50,329 plugged because somebody is going to find it. 523 00:36:50,329 --> 00:36:52,449 and 524 00:36:52,449 --> 00:36:55,209 that doesn't come without 525 00:36:55,209 --> 00:36:56,229 a lot of pain 526 00:36:56,229 --> 00:36:57,889 like a lot of pain 527 00:36:57,889 --> 00:37:00,189 and so 528 00:37:00,189 --> 00:37:03,069 I remember I realized what you're saying 529 00:37:03,069 --> 00:37:04,869 in a separate matter 530 00:37:04,869 --> 00:37:06,249 I had a friend 531 00:37:06,249 --> 00:37:08,749 who had some 532 00:37:08,749 --> 00:37:10,889 Bitcoin locked because of a lost 533 00:37:10,889 --> 00:37:12,849 passphrase and 534 00:37:12,849 --> 00:37:15,129 that was a very ancient 535 00:37:15,129 --> 00:37:16,988 thing like 2014 something 536 00:37:16,988 --> 00:37:18,769 like that and recently 537 00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:24,569 my friend told me, well, I got my money back. I'm super happy. I got a shit lot of money back. 538 00:37:24,889 --> 00:37:31,889 And I said, how? Well, AI. And I was like, for a while, I was like, wait a minute. I'm still very 539 00:37:31,889 --> 00:37:39,689 skeptical of the AI hype and claims. And so I said, these LLMs, they cannot actually brute force 540 00:37:39,689 --> 00:37:45,949 a key more efficiently. And he told me, no, no, it's not that they, I didn't use AI to brute force. 541 00:37:45,949 --> 00:37:52,189 there were some automatization that were reasonable to do, but the chance of success, 542 00:37:52,729 --> 00:37:59,549 they were so low that I never bothered actually programming that because I said, no, this is too 543 00:37:59,549 --> 00:38:06,749 many options. So I never really got to do it. With these LLMs, I just, in one afternoon, I just tried 544 00:38:06,749 --> 00:38:12,969 out all the different kinds of rainbow table cracking ideas that I had over the years. And 545 00:38:12,969 --> 00:38:17,569 instead of postponing forever because the cost of trying and failing was high, 546 00:38:17,909 --> 00:38:20,889 now the cost of trying and failing was zero, just a few minutes. 547 00:38:21,189 --> 00:38:22,189 So I tried them all. 548 00:38:22,189 --> 00:38:27,508 And then I found the actual cracking algorithm was optimal. 549 00:38:28,008 --> 00:38:33,769 So back then, it was before the apocalypse of this summer. 550 00:38:33,969 --> 00:38:38,069 It was probably last February or last March. 551 00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:43,789 and with just the fact that we can automatize with zero effort. 552 00:38:43,988 --> 00:38:48,809 It's probably something even bigger than moving from binary code 553 00:38:48,809 --> 00:38:51,229 to Python higher level languages. 554 00:38:52,389 --> 00:38:55,929 You could, the computers with Python can do the same things 555 00:38:55,929 --> 00:39:12,213 that the computer could do by punching cards with binaries It just that if you have to punch cards one by one and one and zero every time you have to allocate your cards time way better 556 00:39:12,213 --> 00:39:15,073 and you can only care for very important problems 557 00:39:15,073 --> 00:39:17,113 like space programs and weapons. 558 00:39:17,453 --> 00:39:22,373 If you can automatize that with a lot of boiler plating 559 00:39:22,373 --> 00:39:24,553 being done by higher level languages, 560 00:39:25,053 --> 00:39:28,453 then you suddenly have a lot of people programming 561 00:39:28,453 --> 00:39:38,513 just because even without a clear compensation or a clear goal or a clear expectation of outcome. 562 00:39:39,013 --> 00:39:40,853 So it's, yeah, it changes everything. 563 00:39:41,853 --> 00:39:47,433 And what's crazy is that it's getting better and how much the harnesses, 564 00:39:48,373 --> 00:39:53,693 the fact that like how I interact with all the software and the stuff that we're working on 565 00:39:53,693 --> 00:40:00,873 on top of the engine that we built has just been so cool and i'm just constantly finding ways to do 566 00:40:00,873 --> 00:40:08,593 it faster and the biggest unlock recently has been that because of the little space design is just 567 00:40:08,593 --> 00:40:16,453 peer-to-peer is i built like and i just did this one off in an afternoon um i was like okay i gotta 568 00:40:16,453 --> 00:40:22,393 i'm so sick the biggest friction in this is me taking the prompt and the outputs from one 569 00:40:22,393 --> 00:40:27,753 conversation with the agent on my Linux machine and

copying it over to my agent on the Mac mini 570 00:40:27,753 --> 00:40:34,553 to, to test, you know, what's going wrong with this peer to peer transfer or why it transferred 571 00:40:34,553 --> 00:40:38,973 20 things in this index and then paused for 60 seconds and then transferred the other thousand, 572 00:40:38,973 --> 00:40:46,193 you know, like what, what the hell's like mixing up in this and, uh, and the delay of me having to 573 00:40:46,193 --> 00:40:51,693 read and translate and paste and then go back and forth was just massive. And so like in the 574 00:40:51,693 --> 00:40:58,133 afternoon, I built a chat app that I got on my phone that runs over the same engine and 575 00:40:58,133 --> 00:41:03,993 plugged my agents into it, like each with a key. And then I have like a little thing that just 576 00:41:03,993 --> 00:41:09,573 judges rounds. Like, like you guys can go for six conversations back and forth to figure out 577 00:41:09,573 --> 00:41:15,793 what's going on here. Or I can just say, you've got an hour, you know, I'm going to go do something 578 00:41:15,793 --> 00:41:20,493 else in an hour. We're going to pause this conversation, but I want you to, to figure out 579 00:41:20,493 --> 00:41:23,633 why the streaming is delayed by six seconds when I click on it. 580 00:41:23,733 --> 00:41:24,313 I hate that. 581 00:41:24,413 --> 00:41:25,953 That's a terrible user experience. 582 00:41:26,673 --> 00:41:29,293 And then while I'm working on all my apps, I just record. 583 00:41:29,553 --> 00:41:30,533 I click on stuff. 584 00:41:30,893 --> 00:41:34,793 I click on stuff and I just record myself talking about the app while I'm clicking on it. 585 00:41:35,133 --> 00:41:40,353 And there's a little script that just checks where I'm clicking on stuff and what I'm highlighting 586 00:41:40,353 --> 00:41:44,593 and which DOM is loaded underneath my cursor while I'm talking, like with the time code. 587 00:41:44,593 --> 00:41:53,713 and then it it syncs to my agent over the engine in the background and then my agent analyzes and 588 00:41:53,713 --> 00:41:58,673 updates the app so like every time I record a project now I'm using my own freaking app 589 00:41:58,673 --> 00:42:04,933 to make my shows now and every time I record a project the app is different the app updates like 590 00:42:04,933 --> 00:42:09,553 four times before I'm done with the project in the middle of the day because I just like find 591 00:42:09,553 --> 00:42:14,553 some sort of friction I just like record and talk about it and then I keep going and then my agent 592 00:42:14,553 --> 00:42:20,933 updates the app and fixes the thing like it's just like that's that's wild my main mode of 593 00:42:20,933 --> 00:42:26,993 interaction when i'm building stuff now is just talking about it how fucking crazy is that to some 594 00:42:26,993 --> 00:42:34,773 degree i'm still when you say it's getting better i i can feel it's getting better uh i'm still 595 00:42:34,773 --> 00:42:42,293 maybe i like too much to be contrarian but i still feel skeptical about the exponential rate 596 00:42:42,293 --> 00:42:46,513 I think that we are in some regard plateauing already. 597 00:42:48,253 --> 00:42:52,573 So what we're seeing here, so what is this AI thing? 598 00:42:53,133 --> 00:42:59,313 First thing is the idea of self-adjusting and self-learning neural nets. 599 00:42:59,633 --> 00:43:01,373 That's an idea from the 70s. 600 00:43:01,733 --> 00:43:02,493 So it's nothing new. 601 00:43:02,653 --> 00:43:06,033 It's different from programming bottom-up with an algorithm. 602 00:43:06,433 --> 00:43:10,113 You just let shit going and evolutionarily adapt. 603 00:43:10,473 --> 00:43:12,633 That's the idea of machine learning with neural nets. 604 00:43:12,973 --> 00:43:13,913 That's a brilliant idea. 605 00:43:14,353 --> 00:43:17,693 But then it didn't scale because it was not easy to parallelize. 606 00:43:17,793 --> 00:43:21,253 It was not easy to maintain in the right way. 607 00:43:21,253 --> 00:43:26,093 So the real change was Google Papers in 2017 or something like that. 608 00:43:26,453 --> 00:43:28,213 The famous attention is all you need. 609 00:43:28,673 --> 00:43:32,033 So with self-attention, they make it easy to parallelize. 610 00:43:32,113 --> 00:43:33,173 That's the second innovation. 611 00:43:33,713 --> 00:43:35,653 The third innovation is not even an innovation. 612 00:43:35,873 --> 00:43:38,833 It's just an effort similar to the space program. 613 00:43:38,833 --> 00:43:45,173 just train this shit with every bit of human knowledge from the internet. 614 00:43:45,313 --> 00:43:48,193 Lots of GPUs and lots of memory, yeah. 615 00:43:48,693 --> 00:43:49,173 Exactly. 616 00:43:49,773 --> 00:43:54,413 And since these, so the first thing was actual scientific innovation. 617 00:43:54,893 --> 00:43:59,653 The second thing was a game-changing scientific optimization. 618 00:44:00,313 --> 00:44:04,733 The third one is just brute forcing the entire human knowledge to it. 619 00:44:04,733 --> 00:44:08,653 And the expression of these three things already plateaued 620 00:44:08,653 --> 00:44:10,913 because neural networks are neural networks. 621 00:44:11,393 --> 00:44:15,033 The attention mechanism cannot be improved substantially anymore. 622 00:44:15,273 --> 00:44:19,273 And there is no data to train this stuff about anymore. 623 00:44:19,453 --> 00:44:23,893 It's basically, especially, well, with images and movies and videos, 624 00:44:24,233 --> 00:44:26,773 there's still a lot of runaway to train. 625 00:44:26,773 --> 00:44:32,013 But with text, like textual capability after ChargPT 4S, 626 00:44:32,493 --> 00:44:34,713 it's basically, we are basically there. 627 00:44:35,253 --> 00:44:36,413 So what happened there? 628 00:44:36,773 --> 00:44:37,473 Two things happened. 629 00:44:37,473 --> 00:44:47,853 One thing is that people started to learn how to use this sheet and integrate it with other tools in a rational

way. 630 00:44:47,853 --> 00:44:59,233 So instead of just going to ChatGPT with a chat interface, we learn how to do prompts, harnesses, skills, integration with more deterministic things. 631 00:44:59,233 --> 00:45:01,493 so all this back and forth. 632 00:45:01,793 --> 00:45:04,273 For example, for me, it changed a lot 633 00:45:04,273 --> 00:45:08,633 when I just had an idea to integrate my Hermes 634 00:45:08,633 --> 00:45:10,013 with Wolfram Alpha. 635 00:45:10,433 --> 00:45:13,693 Wolfram Alpha is the thing from Wolfram 636 00:45:13,693 --> 00:45:16,313 that will give you all the world data. 637 00:45:16,933 --> 00:45:19,673 It's very good because it doesn't hallucinate. 638 00:45:20,013 --> 00:45:22,313 It's deterministic, but it's very bad 639 00:45:22,313 --> 00:45:25,473 because it's slow to ask the right question 640 00:45:25,473 --> 00:45:26,333 in the right notation. 641 00:45:26,773 --> 00:45:27,993 So when you put them together, 642 00:45:27,993 --> 00:45:31,433 was just so much better in so many things. 643 00:45:32,213 --> 00:45:36,013 But that's not an exponential evolution. 644 00:45:36,953 --> 00:45:37,173 No, yeah. 645 00:45:37,173 --> 00:45:40,733 That's just, yeah, I will write you the link, 646 00:45:40,833 --> 00:45:41,593 but it's pretty cool. 647 00:45:41,873 --> 00:45:44,373 They can also do symbolic integration, 648 00:45:44,593 --> 00:45:46,033 a lot of math, a lot of things. 649 00:45:46,573 --> 00:45:48,753 And then the things that is missing 650 00:45:48,753 --> 00:45:51,493 is just applying it to other fields. 651 00:45:51,933 --> 00:45:54,273 So people started to use it to write, 652 00:45:54,273 --> 00:46:00,893 Especially people used it to ask medical questions, legal questions, stuff like that. 653 00:46:00,933 --> 00:46:07,493 And now people are first trying to apply to cybersecurity seriously because it's not real. 654 00:46:07,973 --> 00:46:13,313 So it is true that the new models, frontier models have been trained on code. 655 00:46:13,533 --> 00:46:20,393 But even in that case, we're very rapidly approaching the plateau of the amount of code you can train them on. 656 00:46:20,393 --> 00:46:29,453 And after a while, you have this kind of incest problem where the code that you train them with is code that they generated based on the other code. 657 00:46:29,773 --> 00:46:33,313 So there's nothing new anymore, that internet problem. 658 00:46:33,773 --> 00:46:42,973 So I think that I would expect that for textual stuff, like to create an essay or stuff like that, I think we already picked. 659 00:46:43,453 --> 00:46:48,353 Yeah, Fable is nice, but they learn how to remove the M-dash. 660 00:46:48,353 --> 00:46:55,693 okay but it's we're basically there now for code is something newer and i think that we will see 661 00:46:55,693 --> 00:47:02,813 some shit hit in the fan for the next year or so but i i feel we're close to plateau then what i 662 00:47:02,813 --> 00:47:08,533 think is still at the beginning

is multimedia so the idea that we could actually change real time 663 00:47:08,533 --> 00:47:16,173 our languages with lip sync the the the because if you put more brute force onto that you can 664 00:47:16,173 --> 00:47:23,133 actually have long format movies you can disrupt Hollywood so that kind of stuff is probably 665 00:47:23,133 --> 00:47:29,973 something that can still surprise us for a few years more yeah I think I agree with that I like 666 00:47:29,973 --> 00:47:35,353 I mean I feel like I mean of course I don't know I mean I don't know where the peak is going to be 667 00:47:35,353 --> 00:47:39,733 with any of this but and that's probably one of those things like time in the market or whatever 668 00:47:39,733 --> 00:47:49,233 It's just going to be hard to say. But but I think that you're right in that we will get some sort of some sort of plateau. 669 00:47:49,413 --> 00:47:54,973 And then but that's sort of like kind of the nature of the tick tock advancement in technology in general. 670 00:47:54,973 --> 00:48:02,253 Right. As you hit some sort of wall here and then you spend all the time applying this new things we've you know, 671 00:48:02,253 --> 00:48:08,673 we've built to some, you know, some counter, you know, part of the technology or some counter, 672 00:48:09,313 --> 00:48:11,073 some other thing that's been neglected. 673 00:48:11,653 --> 00:48:16,953 And it either gets more efficient in some way or it, you know, like, like, I think we just, 674 00:48:17,113 --> 00:48:19,893 it crosses domains to have this sort of back and forth. 675 00:48:20,033 --> 00:48:20,153 Yeah. 676 00:48:20,153 --> 00:48:20,453 Yeah. 677 00:48:20,593 --> 00:48:30,013 So like one massive advancement in domain A gets applied and shows some area in domain B 678 00:48:30,013 --> 00:48:34,033 that can be aggressively improved and domain A plateaus, 679 00:48:34,173 --> 00:48:36,433 but domain B, as soon as that plateaus, 680 00:48:36,713 --> 00:48:39,293 the capital shifts into fixing domain B, 681 00:48:39,453 --> 00:48:42,793 which is now obviously broken because of what changed in domain A. 682 00:48:43,313 --> 00:48:47,293 And, you know, it's kind of like Moore's law in, you know, 683 00:48:47,473 --> 00:48:50,713 making CPUs and chips like, you know, 684 00:48:50,733 --> 00:48:52,993 a gate smaller and smaller and smaller. 685 00:48:53,213 --> 00:48:56,733 That started to slow down quite a bit until we realized 686 00:48:56,733 --> 00:48:59,713 that we're still just communicating with a base of the bus. 687 00:49:00,013 --> 00:49:03,313 Between the chip and the RAM. 688 00:49:03,893 --> 00:49:07,013 Shit, let's just fuse the RAM directly onto the chip. 689 00:49:07,353 --> 00:49:09,893 Let's connect it straight to the gate. 690 00:49:10,393 --> 00:49:17,253 And the massive gains were now in the architecture of how we connected the things rather than the density of the chip itself. 691 00:49:17,953 --> 00:49:21,953 And I think this whole thing about neural networks, I think you're right, Giacomo. 692 00:49:21,953 --> 00:49:23,953 It's just slowing down a lot. 693 00:49:24,373 --> 00:49:28,233 But I think the bigger thing is the economic output is slowing down. 694 00:49:28,233 --> 00:49:30,473 because no matter what you do 695 00:49:30,473 --> 00:49:32,573 and how much better you get 696 00:49:32,573 --> 00:49:34,533 some crazy, super intelligent, 697 00:49:34,713 --> 00:49:35,933 exponential model, 698 00:49:36,153 --> 00:49:37,593 it's still going to be generalized. 699 00:49:38,573 --> 00:49:41,813 And I don't think because you took the human brain 700 00:49:41,813 --> 00:49:44,113 and put it in a computer or the neural network 701 00:49:44,113 --> 00:49:45,833 and you put it in a GPU, 702 00:49:46,593 --> 00:49:48,853 I don't think the economics of specialization 703 00:49:48,853 --> 00:49:51,093 over generalization are fundamentally different. 704 00:49:51,093 --> 00:49:53,713 And I think we're seeing exactly that right now 705 00:49:53,713 --> 00:49:56,573 that specialized models are vastly outperforming 706 00:49:56,573 --> 00:49:57,813 at specific tasks. 707 00:49:57,813 --> 00:49:59,833 than giant generalized model. 708 00:50:00,253 --> 00:50:01,673 Fable can't put a dime, 709 00:50:01,833 --> 00:50:02,833 like you can't put anything, 710 00:50:02,953 --> 00:50:08,773 a candle to Skyfall and Jev and Dessa, 711 00:50:09,053 --> 00:50:11,573 these other very specific models 712 00:50:11,573 --> 00:50:13,033 for very specific things 713 00:50:13,033 --> 00:50:14,953 when it comes to how much energy it costs 714 00:50:14,953 --> 00:50:17,473 to get a legitimate or high quality output 715 00:50:17,473 --> 00:50:19,773 in that one particular domain. 716 00:50:20,353 --> 00:50:22,073 And so Fable is just going to be using 717 00:50:22,073 --> 00:50:23,193 those other models. 718 00:50:23,313 --> 00:50:25,813 The general model is necessarily the orchestrator, 719 00:50:26,013 --> 00:50:27,093 not the implementer. 720 00:50:27,093 --> 00:50:34,973 And I think the economics of specialization are the same whether you put it in a machine or you stick it in outer space or it's in a human brain. 721 00:50:35,273 --> 00:50:36,573 The economics still matter. 722 00:50:37,013 --> 00:50:41,413 Fable 5 is going to cost 20 times as much as Skyfall in building a CAD system. 723 00:50:42,493 --> 00:50:49,733 If a specialization didn't matter, we will not have created a computer in the first place to do something that human brains cannot do. 724 00:50:50,253 --> 00:50:51,653 So we're going back in circles. 725 00:50:51,653 --> 00:50:54,073 So we created computers because they're more specialized. 726 00:50:54,373 --> 00:51:02,233 And now we're trying to make them as generic as human brains, which is basically getting back to the human issue of being very general, but not very specialized. 727 00:51:03,273 --> 00:51:03,313 Yeah. 728 00:51:03,373 --> 00:51:11,473 Well, and I kind of wonder if there's

going to be, if we're going to see some sort of, I mean, you know, there's already major changes in software anyway. 729 00:51:12,173 --> 00:51:15,713 We already have major, like we have, we have vulnerabilities everywhere. 730 00:51:15,713 --> 00:51:17,073 We have vulnerabilities in hardware. 731 00:51:17,173 --> 00:51:18,373 We have vulnerabilities in software. 732 00:51:18,373 --> 00:51:25,473 we have three layers of operating system basically on every machine because you've got bios an 733 00:51:25,473 --> 00:51:32,953 operating system and an explorer or a you know like browser which is it's like basically functions 734 00:51:32,953 --> 00:51:40,813 as an operating system anyway so it makes sense given the the resource constraints we have in 735 00:51:40,813 --> 00:51:45,673 hardware and everything else that now somebody is going to be devoting a lot of resources 736 00:51:45,673 --> 00:51:49,213 to maybe redesigning and making more efficient 737 00:51:49,213 --> 00:51:50,513 some of these things. 738 00:51:51,073 --> 00:51:53,813 And so we might end up, I mean, because what's the, 739 00:51:53,813 --> 00:51:57,813 it was like the, there's like that video of the guy 740 00:51:58,433 --> 00:52:04,973 that made like the, he like some really autistic 741 00:52:05,002 --> 00:52:11,682 guy like you know a programmed a a like an old nintendo type screen but you have to like you know 742 00:52:11,682 --> 00:52:17,982 draw every pixel or whatever yourself he programmed like a train passing through a tunnel and and like 743 00:52:17,982 --> 00:52:23,042 they show you watch the video and like the crowd is just like going crazy because like these things 744 00:52:23,042 --> 00:52:28,502 are not possible you know and he's doing video that's not possible and it the video costs like 745 00:52:28,502 --> 00:52:34,902 nothing to run because it's so low resource. So, you know, right. Like that, that is proof 746 00:52:34,902 --> 00:52:44,242 that there are ways to get, you know, you don't need 128 gigabytes to, to do a lot of what we're 747 00:52:44,242 --> 00:52:51,802 doing. And a lot of this is just because we have three layers. Yeah. Yes. But in two years, 748 00:52:51,802 --> 00:52:55,442 we'll look back and see this as the dumbest and most inefficient possible way to accomplish 749 00:52:55,442 --> 00:52:58,202 like 99 out of 100 tasks. 750 00:52:58,742 --> 00:53:00,582 But right now it's a breakthrough. 751 00:53:01,902 --> 00:53:02,082 Yeah. 752 00:53:02,702 --> 00:53:07,942 Sam Altman being mad about you having 32 gigabytes of DVR5 RAM is like... 753 00:53:07,942 --> 00:53:11,322 Are you hiding some unauthorized VRAM in your basement? 754 00:53:12,122 --> 00:53:12,262 Yeah. 755 00:53:13,102 --> 00:53:16,202 No, but also I said we are plateauing, but no, you're right, guy. 756 00:53:16,302 --> 00:53:19,402 We still have a lot of hardware specialization to do. 757 00:53:19,482 --> 00:53:22,582 For example, there was the old idea that we can actually have 758 00:53:22,582 --> 00:53:25,362 analog computers just to do metrics multiplication 759 00:53:25,362 --> 00:53:28,922 that can still send us a few orders of magnitude 760 00:53:28,922 --> 00:53:31,122 or speed and efficiency higher. 761 00:53:31,502 --> 00:53:33,782 So we can say, I think we will see 762 00:53:33,782 --> 00:53:36,242 some incredible shit coming. 763 00:53:36,602 --> 00:53:39,922 I just don't think it will be a qualitative difference 764 00:53:40,482 --> 00:53:44,242 in like the Turing test kind of impression 765 00:53:44,242 --> 00:53:46,782 that we had with GPT-4. 766 00:53:47,442 --> 00:53:50,202 I think that moment is not going to change, 767 00:53:50,682 --> 00:53:52,502 but from the point of view of efficiency, 768 00:53:52,582 --> 00:53:55,822 we can probably have something incredibly better. 769 00:53:56,742 --> 00:53:56,822 Yeah. 770 00:53:57,502 --> 00:54:02,422 And by the way, I love, so I usually am skeptical of hypes. 771 00:54:02,842 --> 00:54:04,582 Every hype, I tend to be contrarian. 772 00:54:04,942 --> 00:54:08,162 But I really do love the fact that the AI hype, 773 00:54:08,882 --> 00:54:10,582 it's a hype, it's unreasonable. 774 00:54:10,882 --> 00:54:13,002 There's a lot of bullshit going on, a lot of scams. 775 00:54:13,662 --> 00:54:15,542 Sam Altamon is a scammer. 776 00:54:15,802 --> 00:54:21,102 But I love the fact that now tokens means something valuable 777 00:54:21,102 --> 00:54:24,402 and it's destroying the tokenomics idea 778 00:54:24,402 --> 00:54:26,982 and that many crypto bros 779 00:54:26,982 --> 00:54:30,382 are going away from something Bitcoin contiguous. 780 00:54:30,862 --> 00:54:33,402 So it's destroying the crypto hype 781 00:54:33,402 --> 00:54:35,242 in exchange for something 782 00:54:35,242 --> 00:54:36,902 that gave me back something more 783 00:54:36,902 --> 00:54:38,102 than the crypto hype, 784 00:54:38,302 --> 00:54:40,722 which is basically LLMs and the way they work. 785 00:54:41,062 --> 00:54:41,582 So I'm happy. 786 00:54:43,042 --> 00:54:43,462 That's awesome. 787 00:54:44,022 --> 00:54:44,822 No, I agree. 788 00:54:45,082 --> 00:54:46,762 They brought back tokens. 789 00:54:48,062 --> 00:54:48,302 Yeah. 790 00:54:48,602 --> 00:54:50,402 Yeah, finally tokens mean something. 791 00:54:50,402 --> 00:54:51,022 Make tokens cool again. 792 00:54:51,102 --> 00:54:52,242 exactly 793 00:54:52,242 --> 00:54:56,662 I don't know I mean I love AI 794 00:54:56,662 --> 00:54:57,562 I love what it's doing 795 00:54:57,562 --> 00:55:00,482 all the hacks and stuff to me 796 00:55:00,482 --> 00:55:02,682 I kind of visualize this thing of like 797 00:55:02,682 --> 00:55:04,682 a tree where 798 00:55:04,682 --> 00:55:06,502 like the trunk of the tree are 799 00:55:06,502 --> 00:55:08,242 things like ECDSA 800 00:55:08,242 --> 00:55:10,902 and like core cryptographic 801 00:55:10,902 --> 00:55:12,582 functions that like aren't 802 00:55:12,582 --> 00:55:14,382 really affected by 803

00:55:14,382 --> 00:55:16,022 the AI and then 804 00:55:16,022 --> 00:55:18,662 all the stuff that gets broken is all 805 00:55:18,662 --> 00:55:20,342 the stuff on like the top of the tree 806 00:55:20,342 --> 00:55:26,582 the outside and like the outer layers and stuff like that and so i'm kind of i agree with giacoma 807 00:55:26,582 --> 00:55:31,662 where it's like yeah i mean ai is probably learning as much as it's learned it's learned 808 00:55:31,662 --> 00:55:36,602 the whole internet now it's gonna like just break all the low-hanging fruit or all this low-hanging 809 00:55:36,602 --> 00:55:42,422 fruit is the stuff on like the outside layers it's it's not any of like the core stuff yeah um 810 00:55:42,422 --> 00:55:57,542 And I kind of hope in a way, I mean, like I dream of the direction of like a returning to kind of command line simplicity, roll your own keys. 811 00:55:58,162 --> 00:56:04,182 Like that's what I need out of a computer, you know, like the other stuff is just kind of fun. 812 00:56:04,342 --> 00:56:07,422 And, you know, it's not really serious stuff. 813 00:56:07,862 --> 00:56:08,482 You know what I mean? 814 00:56:08,482 --> 00:56:28,122 Like, yeah, the core stuff is simple and the core stuff, you know, I dream of kind of a version of Bitcoin core with everything stripped that doesn't have Wi-Fi, you know, that just has the most the simpler you make software, the less you need to update it. 815 00:56:28,122 --> 00:56:40,042 You know, when you update things, chances are the thing that you needed to update was something that a previous updated inserted into it as an advanced feature. 816 00:56:40,422 --> 00:56:45,102 You know, when you update, you're not updating like the core secure stuff. 817 00:56:45,882 --> 00:56:55,582 You know, so it's like I kind of dream of just a much simpler version of Bitcoin Core for the people that don't want anything fancy, you know. 818 00:56:55,582 --> 00:56:58,122 yeah 819 00:56:58,122 --> 00:57:00,042 Adeless Bitcoin Core 820 00:57:00,042 --> 00:57:02,062 well that's a very interesting thing 821 00:57:02,062 --> 00:57:03,642 because some people also say 822 00:57:03,642 --> 00:57:05,282 so on one hand 823 00:57:05,282 --> 00:57:07,442 this new paradigm is 824 00:57:07,442 --> 00:57:09,902 fucking up all the software so everything 825 00:57:09,902 --> 00:57:11,582 is broken everything has vulnerabilities 826 00:57:11,582 --> 00:57:13,802 so that's bad on the other hand people 827 00:57:13,802 --> 00:57:15,682 are telling me yeah but now 828 00:57:15,682 --> 00:57:17,762 with an LLM I can ask 829 00:57:17,762 --> 00:57:19,302 them to do everything from 830 00:57:19,302 --> 00:57:21,402 command line I don't even need 831 00:57:21,402 --> 00:57:23,122 Liana anymore to do 832 00:57:23,122 --> 00:57:31,082 mini script because now with Bitcoin Core, I just prompt how to do a multi-seek transaction. 833 00:57:31,382 --> 00:57:37,422 So it's bringing down the barrier to use minimal stuff. But then again, we're watching models 834 00:57:37,422 --> 00:57:44,322 destroying existing vulnerabilities, but we are not watching yet attackers exploiting models by 835 00:57:44,322 --> 00:57:50,142 injecting in the weights some vulnerabilities. It will come a time in which people will just say, 836 00:57:50,142 --> 00:57:54,562 hey, I can just ask my agent how to verify the signature, 837 00:57:54,742 --> 00:57:57,782 but then the agent itself would be injected with something. 838 00:57:57,782 --> 00:57:59,042 Or lie about the signature, yeah. 839 00:57:59,602 --> 00:58:03,482 They will lie and they will steal for somebody else or intrinsically. 840 00:58:03,882 --> 00:58:07,482 And that's a very nasty problem to have because in a way, 841 00:58:07,602 --> 00:58:10,222 as much as a black box as it gets, 842 00:58:10,342 --> 00:58:14,842 because you cannot really open an agent and check the weights and say, 843 00:58:15,042 --> 00:58:16,162 what is this doing? 844 00:58:16,522 --> 00:58:19,662 If something is hidden there, is hidden in plain sight, 845 00:58:19,662 --> 00:58:21,822 but in a way that by definition is not readable 846 00:58:21,822 --> 00:58:26,282 because it's locally not abstractable anymore. 847 00:58:26,682 --> 00:58:28,722 So it's a black box. 848 00:58:28,722 --> 00:58:33,422 So I think that the effect on security will be mixed. 849 00:58:33,962 --> 00:58:38,002 In some way, I think Steve is right that we will have stuff. 850 00:58:38,462 --> 00:58:43,142 For example, we move from like the Unix kind of experience 851 00:58:43,142 --> 00:58:45,522 where you write everything to graphics. 852 00:58:45,982 --> 00:58:48,262 Graphics are good because you just click on stuff, 853 00:58:48,262 --> 00:58:50,682 but then when you click on stuff, 854 00:58:50,782 --> 00:58:53,562 you have a lot of this kind of giant stack of vulnerabilities 855 00:58:53,562 --> 00:58:58,602 with JavaScript and the DOM in the internet and the browsers. 856 00:58:59,082 --> 00:59:01,542 So you had this explosion of complexity 857 00:59:01,542 --> 00:59:03,582 in order to make the graphical template. 858 00:59:04,022 --> 00:59:06,122 Now with these new technologies, 859 00:59:06,802 --> 00:59:10,262 you may rebuild the stack in a simple way. 860 00:59:10,382 --> 00:59:12,702 You can generate the button, the graphical button, 861 00:59:13,242 --> 00:59:14,982 just when needed. 862 00:59:15,482 --> 00:59:17,402 So I don't know, mixed feelings. 863 00:59:17,402 --> 00:59:23,262 I think that some of it will make security easier with simple components. 864 00:59:23,962 --> 00:59:28,962 Some of it will also create new vectors that are very, very hard to counteract. 865 00:59:29,082 --> 00:59:30,222 So it's a mix. 866 00:59:31,242 --> 00:59:33,362 Yeah, it's a mix for sure. 867 00:59:33,942 --> 00:59:35,582 But I think you have two different cultures. 868 00:59:35,962 --> 00:59:43,602 Like, you know, I've run a Bitcoin meetup for 10 years now, and I've interacted

with thousands of Bitcoiners, as I'm sure you have, Giacomo. 869 00:59:43,602 --> 00:59:49,422 And I would say like the vast majority of Bitcoiners do not want to update their node. 870 00:59:50,602 --> 00:59:55,442 You know, it like their balls are in their stomach when they have to update their node. 871 00:59:55,562 --> 00:59:56,762 They never want to do that. 872 00:59:57,802 --> 01:00:02,242 It's only like 5% of the tech nerds that like want to be on the latest version. 873 01:00:02,862 --> 01:00:12,562 And I just think there's a misconception out there from a lot of the super technical Bitcoiners that everyone wants to have an up to date node. 874 01:00:12,562 --> 01:00:18,042 yeah i see that as a very small focused on a bunch of new features and wing digits and all 875 01:00:18,042 --> 01:00:22,942 that stuff yeah yeah it's i mean that's the stuff that you hear about on people want stability 876 01:00:22,942 --> 01:00:28,062 and they want stability that's the purpose of money right it's a hedge against uncertainty 877 01:00:28,062 --> 01:00:33,242 exactly yeah if this wasn't money then it'd be a different story yeah add all the features do 878 01:00:33,242 --> 01:00:39,562 everything move fast break things but like this is money so it's not yeah yeah yeah exactly well 879 01:00:39,562 --> 01:00:45,102 honestly, stability is sort of the purpose of all of our things, right? Like, like having a car 880 01:00:45,102 --> 01:00:51,802 that if the battery goes dead, it forgets how to roll up the windows is a complete like backwards. 881 01:00:52,102 --> 01:00:56,362 Like that, that's, that doesn't make any sense. Like if the power goes out and your refrigerator 882 01:00:56,362 --> 01:01:01,302 doesn't automatically restart because it's got a computer in it instead of just the old mechanical, 883 01:01:01,302 --> 01:01:06,782 you know, like systems that come back on, it's retarded. Now your food's dead because, you know, 884 01:01:06,782 --> 01:01:10,222 your food's spoiled because somebody built a vulnerability. 885 01:01:10,602 --> 01:01:11,382 Your food's dead. 886 01:01:11,822 --> 01:01:14,662 Somebody built a vulnerability into the system. 887 01:01:14,662 --> 01:01:15,562 And it's like, 888 01:01:15,602 --> 01:01:16,722 there's also, 889 01:01:16,842 --> 01:01:21,182 did you see the stuff about somebody turning the temperature up in the 890 01:01:21,182 --> 01:01:22,942 freezers in the grocery store? 891 01:01:23,162 --> 01:01:25,702 The internet connected refrigerators. 892 01:01:25,722 --> 01:01:26,962 There should never be. 893 01:01:27,262 --> 01:01:28,202 This should never exist. 894 01:01:28,522 --> 01:01:32,202 Like $40 million or some shit in damage of food. 895 01:01:32,302 --> 01:01:35,662 And people were commenting that the Silicon Valley TV series already 896 01:01:35,662 --> 01:01:37,322 already predicted this. 897 01:01:37,402 --> 01:01:39,522 There was so much prescient. 898 01:01:39,742 --> 01:01:41,082 They also had the, 899 01:01:41,082 --> 01:01:42,862 basically the agents 900 01:01:42,862 --> 01:01:44,382 infecting the 901 01:01:44,382 --> 01:01:46,582 furniture stuff, 902 01:01:46,682 --> 01:01:47,542 the smart fridge 903 01:01:47,542 --> 01:01:48,282 and stuff like that. 904 01:01:49,122 --> 01:01:50,462 God, that's so crazy. 905 01:01:51,322 --> 01:01:52,802 Why is your refrigerator 906 01:01:52,802 --> 01:01:54,022 connected to the internet? 907 01:01:54,442 --> 01:01:55,322 Why did you give it 908 01:01:55,322 --> 01:01:56,742 a vulnerability for nothing? 909 01:01:57,582 --> 01:01:57,962 What are you doing? 910 01:01:58,022 --> 01:01:58,382 Really? 911 01:01:58,602 --> 01:01:58,902 Really? 912 01:01:59,082 --> 01:01:59,342 Really? 913 01:01:59,342 --> 01:02:00,042 You have to go home 914 01:02:00,042 --> 01:02:00,602 and you have to change 915 01:02:00,602 --> 01:02:01,422 your fucking refrigerator 916 01:02:01,422 --> 01:02:02,142 by two degrees? 917 01:02:02,702 --> 01:02:03,442 Like while you're at home? 918 01:02:03,902 --> 01:02:04,842 You can't just go into work. 919 01:02:04,922 --> 01:02:05,522 You just can't, 920 01:02:05,522 --> 01:02:07,822 You can't like really, really guys. 921 01:02:08,222 --> 01:02:09,782 Like there's no reason to do that. 922 01:02:10,162 --> 01:02:13,342 Set it at a, I've never changed the temperature on my refrigerator ever. 923 01:02:13,902 --> 01:02:14,762 Not once. 924 01:02:16,242 --> 01:02:17,442 I guess that's. 925 01:02:17,942 --> 01:02:22,742 When we were in Montreal, there is a, there was an engineer that we met in our building. 926 01:02:23,162 --> 01:02:24,082 And he's a young guy. 927 01:02:24,562 --> 01:02:27,022 And I tried to have this conversation with him. 928 01:02:27,062 --> 01:02:28,642 He's an aerospace engineer. 929 01:02:28,842 --> 01:02:34,942 And I was like, you know, one of the craziest things to me is the fact that we're not, there's no more redundancy. 930 01:02:34,942 --> 01:02:41,122 failure modes are not even thought about and i hope like i don't i don't think anything that i 931 01:02:41,122 --> 01:02:48,462 said registered with him like it really like in aerospace like i don't understand how this is not 932 01:02:48,462 --> 01:02:54,962 like what what are you being taught in engineering if this is not the first thing on your mind i 933 01:02:54,962 --> 01:03:00,722 don't i just don't get it i don't understand how this is our reality at all it's like it's like 934 01:03:00,722 --> 01:03:06,342 somebody invented this little, you know, Arduino, and now I can just put it on everything and, 935 01:03:06,342 --> 01:03:13,222 and we can, you know, internet connect it and nevermind any of the, you know, like any of the 936 01:03:13,222 --> 01:03:18,142 possible failure modes, like just forget all of it. We should just have it control all the switches. 937 01:03:18,562 --> 01:03:23,822 Switches are expensive. We should just put an Arduino and have it be all thousand of the 938 01:03:23,822 -->

01:03:28,902 switches that we need or whatever. Like, it's like, okay. And if that fails, how are you going 939 01:03:28,902 --> 01:03:32,762 to control the thousand things that you just, you know, like it just doesn't, it just doesn't 940 01:03:32,762 --> 01:03:33,482 make any sense. 941 01:03:33,582 --> 01:03:34,262 I don't, I don't know. 942 01:03:34,342 --> 01:03:38,962 Well, if we want to be annoying Bitcoiners, we can talk about a high time preference and 943 01:03:38,962 --> 01:03:40,442 the convenience of centralization. 944 01:03:40,962 --> 01:03:45,422 Centralization is super efficient and is very cool as long as it works until it fails. 945 01:03:45,422 --> 01:03:47,422 And when it fails, it's bad. 946 01:03:47,882 --> 01:03:52,702 Well, decentralization is always inefficient because it's redundant, but then it's resilient 947 01:03:52,702 --> 01:03:53,462 over time. 948 01:03:53,462 --> 01:04:00,502 And that's a very core of the debate between the fiat culture and the Bitcoin experiment at the end. 949 01:04:01,502 --> 01:04:11,642 Yeah, I think, I guess, there's two interesting elements when it comes to, back to something you said, Jachim, a minute ago about how you have to trust the model. 950 01:04:11,642 --> 01:04:21,082 and as the as models become more specialized and more like fine-tuned or put into any particular 951 01:04:21,082 --> 01:04:28,262 software i think it's probably very likely that we have models or little neural net net that we're 952 01:04:28,262 --> 01:04:34,242 talking to or interacting with in almost all software very similar to how graphical interfaces 953 01:04:34,242 --> 01:04:39,162 became a thing right is that you just don't have stuff without graphical interfaces um these days 954 01:04:39,162 --> 01:04:49,282 and uh but then there's this really kind of quite crazy like surreal because you you like you said 955 01:04:49,282 --> 01:04:58,122 there's a black box like you have this weird kind of like proxy human trust re-implemented back like 956 01:04:58,122 --> 01:05:26,184 do i trust that my software is being honest to me you know do i trust that my wallet is talking to me legitimately or and the and the fact that it so funny too that the fact that where so many of these are going wrong there like such a brilliant like microcosm of why government becomes a disaster in how these like chat GPT is going haywire and these rogue agents and all of this stuff 957 01:05:26,184 --> 01:05:40,304 Because what happens is that the AI model, when you can only train it on metrics, the metrics become the goal and the qualitative judgments or values about what the actual output is. 958 01:05:40,824 --> 01:05:47,104 Literally everything that's gone wrong with like rogue agents is exactly like the cobra problem, Jeffrey, that you talk about. 959 01:05:47,104 --> 01:05:53,764 I think is the first episode of the podcast or whatever is the Cobra problem of like when 960 01:05:53,764 --> 01:05:57,024 your metric, Oh, you have Cobras all over this place. 961 01:05:57,024 --> 01:05:57,264 Okay. 962 01:05:57,264 --> 01:06:01,684 So the government's going to pay people for dead Cobras that they bring to incentivize 963 01:06:01,684 --> 01:06:02,664 people to kill Cobras. 964 01:06:02,764 --> 01:06:09,644 And instead it's incentivized people to grow, to, to, uh, to farm Cobra snakes. 965 01:06:09,744 --> 01:06:12,284 And the situation got a thousand times worse. 966 01:06:12,284 --> 01:06:16,044 And the government's paying them tons and tons of money for this metric of how many Cobras 967 01:06:16,044 --> 01:06:16,804 did we kill? 968 01:06:16,804 --> 01:06:23,064 and instead they're the population 10x's and then they shut it down and now the cobras are a hundred 969 01:06:23,064 --> 01:06:27,244 times worse than they originally were because all the farms just let them out they're like i don't 970 01:06:27,244 --> 01:06:30,484 know what to do with these i just got all these cobras they're just gonna kill people i'm just 971 01:06:30,484 --> 01:06:36,464 gonna leave i don't i don't want cobras in my house why would i i didn't want this in the 972 01:06:36,464 --> 01:06:43,784 beginning the government was just paying me could be something like uh good good low no good good 973 01:06:43,784 --> 01:06:46,424 art low something like that good hearts all yeah yeah yeah yeah 974 01:06:46,804 --> 01:06:47,744 Good art slow, yeah. 975 01:06:48,583 --> 01:06:50,444 When the metric becomes the goal, 976 01:06:51,884 --> 01:06:54,884 the result breaks down. 977 01:06:55,044 --> 01:06:55,964 The system breaks down 978 01:06:55,964 --> 01:06:58,644 as opposed to the actual thing. 979 01:06:58,644 --> 01:06:59,244 And that's like, 980 01:06:59,704 --> 01:07:03,784 AI is such a kind of aggressive 981 01:07:03,784 --> 01:07:09,284 or exponentially faster path 982 01:07:09,284 --> 01:07:11,344 to showing exactly why, 983 01:07:11,864 --> 01:07:13,504 you know, if your goal is to raise GDP, 984 01:07:14,184 --> 01:07:16,304 you just fuck the economy and print money. 985 01:07:16,304 --> 01:07:19,504 You know, like you don't actually make people more prosperous. 986 01:07:19,844 --> 01:07:21,203 You just figure out how to game the GDP. 987 01:07:22,044 --> 01:07:27,244 And that's what politics becomes about is who can game it the best and position the narrative. 988 01:07:28,104 --> 01:07:28,184 Yeah. 989 01:07:28,284 --> 01:07:31,324 And this is the problem with most corporate structures too, right? 990 01:07:31,424 --> 01:07:35,064 Like corporate structures are too big to actually manage. 991 01:07:35,264 --> 01:07:43,244 And so they build some metrics and they hope that that's going to steer the corporation in a good direction. 992 01:07:43,244 --> 01:07:51,524 and then you end up with things like, you know, you experienced it at whichever one it was. 993 01:07:52,224 --> 01:07:53,024 Spectrum, yeah. 994 01:07:53,904 --> 01:08:00,304 Is that like you were sent because you enjoyed fixing

things properly, 995 01:08:00,304 --> 01:08:02,564 you were sent to clean up everybody's mess. 996 01:08:03,704 --> 01:08:08,604 I liked the ones where people would go into a thing and there'd be like an explosion, 997 01:08:08,604 --> 01:08:11,344 in a spider web of like 200 Ethernet cables 998 01:08:11,344 --> 01:08:14,284 in some rich dude's house who just bought the house. 999 01:08:14,444 --> 01:08:15,744 And they have no idea. 1000 01:08:15,844 --> 01:08:18,604 There's like some crazy custom system that's been set up. 1001 01:08:18,704 --> 01:08:21,304 And they're like, I just want my fucking TV to work. 1002 01:08:21,444 --> 01:08:23,004 I have no idea what this is. 1003 01:08:23,424 --> 01:08:26,224 And so like other technicians would be like, 1004 01:08:27,244 --> 01:08:28,504 guy's going to take this job. 1005 01:08:28,984 --> 01:08:29,904 Guy's going to like this. 1006 01:08:29,984 --> 01:08:31,824 And so they call up the manager or whatever. 1007 01:08:31,824 --> 01:08:33,424 And they're like, I've got a job for guy. 1008 01:08:33,564 --> 01:08:36,184 And then I'll go out there and I'll spend all day 1009 01:08:36,184 --> 01:08:38,484 on one job to help this guy set up. 1010 01:08:38,604 --> 01:09:05,384 And well, not all day, but you know, like I would dedicate real time to it to get this guy's TV working and internet working. But then it looks like my metric is I get one fourth as many jobs done as other people. And so when I actually applied to move and my customer service scores off the charts, like, you know, everything was good. And I did have, you know, good months, but like where I was like employee of the month or whatever the hell with the metrics. 1011 01:09:05,384 --> 01:09:31,364 But my metrics were generally lower because of that tendency. And then when I applied to move to the area that we're in and I was still working the job, I had to get like all of the managers and team leaders to vouch that the reason my numbers were bad is because I was good, not because I was bad, you know, but the corporate just wanted to be like, I don't know if we want to move him to this area. 1012 01:09:31,364 --> 01:09:34,884 He's got 30% lower on this metric and this score or whatever. 1013 01:09:34,984 --> 01:09:35,904 And it's like, no, qualitative. 1014 01:09:36,344 --> 01:09:39,124 You know, like this, the metric is wrong because of this. 1015 01:09:39,424 --> 01:09:40,963 So, but yeah. 1016 01:09:41,364 --> 01:09:47,063 So maybe out of this, you know, maybe, maybe LLMs will be able to build or agents or whatever, 1017 01:09:47,184 --> 01:09:52,124 you know, some combination of the things will be able to build better, better corporate structures 1018 01:09:52,124 --> 01:09:56,164 and incentives that, that allow us to actually accomplish what we want. 1019 01:09:56,244 --> 01:09:57,724 You know, like, I don't know. 1020 01:09:57,724 --> 01:10:07,344 Well, it's all about shrinking the distance between reality and the goal, like how to connect the input to the output, right? 1021 01:10:08,303 --> 01:10:11,364 And all technology is trying to shorten that gap in some way. 1022 01:10:12,244 --> 01:10:14,963 If the metric is gameable, somebody will game it. 1023 01:10:15,504 --> 01:10:21,984 And if the new metric is to please an LLM, then you can find all sorts of quirks that will please the LLM. 1024 01:10:21,984 --> 01:10:34,024 So I think that the less wrong metric for all the criticism you can make to capitalism and profit motives is profit and money. 1025 01:10:34,744 --> 01:10:46,264 Price signal money is not perfect because you cannot convey some things that are below the threshold of pricing like trust circles, family, gift economies. 1026 01:10:46,264 --> 01:10:51,803 But above that threshold, the price mechanism is great because you cannot really game it. 1027 01:10:51,984 --> 01:10:55,264 in the sense that gaming it will be that somebody is losing money 1028 01:10:55,264 --> 01:10:57,543 and then people will get tired of losing money. 1029 01:10:58,024 --> 01:11:01,664 Price and profit is a very dynamic kind of metric. 1030 01:11:02,104 --> 01:11:07,244 So if the metric gets gamed, people will make money out of fixing it. 1031 01:11:07,583 --> 01:11:08,703 And so they will fix it. 1032 01:11:08,803 --> 01:11:10,344 It's not a static metric. 1033 01:11:10,803 --> 01:11:14,844 So I think that profit and price is still very good. 1034 01:11:14,844 --> 01:11:36,004 If instead of the amount of jobs in a day or the arbitrary conventional satisfaction rate, you just check how much people are paying Guy for his intervention, that's an interesting metric because eventually if people are really pleased with the result, they will be able to spend more. 1035 01:11:36,004 --> 01:11:40,644 Now, it's not perfect because you will need an infinitely efficient market. 1036 01:11:41,244 --> 01:11:44,703 You will need renegotiating prices every time. 1037 01:11:44,844 --> 01:11:46,644 So you never had that in practice. 1038 01:11:47,104 --> 01:11:51,364 But it's the thing that is less bad in this regard. 1039 01:11:52,264 --> 01:11:52,323 Yeah. 1040 01:11:53,424 --> 01:11:54,404 No, that's a good way to put it. 1041 01:11:54,404 --> 01:12:08,844 Well, and maybe we get, you know, in terms of like, okay, the vulnerability is that did somebody train this LLM or this whatever, this model to, you know, hack my Bitcoin wallet instead of build me a good Bitcoin wallet? 1042 01:12:08,844 --> 01:12:34,904 Maybe if we have, you know, hopefully something along the lines of Pair Drive where you can validate where your stuff is coming from and the supplier has a reputation, maybe we end up with, you know, the combination of reputation and then skin in the game with money and everything. 1043 01:12:34,904 --> 01:12:37,484 Maybe those two are the balance. 1044 01:12:37,984 --> 01:12:40,203 Maybe they do solve most of the problems. 1045 01:12:41,024 --> 01:12:41,864 Plus competition. 1046 01:12:42,104 -->

01:12:45,624 Maybe you can ask one model to check on the behavior on the other model. 1047 01:12:45,844 --> 01:12:46,664 So you can try to. 1048 01:12:46,864 --> 01:12:47,184 Sure. 1049 01:12:47,284 --> 01:12:48,063 That's a great one. 1050 01:12:48,604 --> 01:12:49,524 I use that a lot. 1051 01:12:50,184 --> 01:12:50,303 Yeah. 1052 01:12:50,884 --> 01:12:52,424 But the result is not simple. 1053 01:12:52,823 --> 01:12:55,524 It's not really stripping out the complexity. 1054 01:12:55,823 --> 01:13:00,063 We're just moving to another kind of complexity, which is pretty exotic. 1055 01:13:00,984 --> 01:13:01,184 Yeah. 1056 01:13:01,184 --> 01:13:03,884 there's something interesting 1057 01:13:03,884 --> 01:13:06,063 that the ledger 1058 01:13:06,063 --> 01:13:08,004 hack had me thinking about that 1059 01:13:08,004 --> 01:13:09,463 I had not really considered 1060 01:13:09,463 --> 01:13:11,764 so part of 1061 01:13:11,764 --> 01:13:14,083 why we're building in the direction 1062 01:13:14,083 --> 01:13:16,184 that we're building with the whole pair drive stuff 1063 01:13:16,184 --> 01:13:18,104 is just because I think 1064 01:13:18,104 --> 01:13:20,424 like all communication 1065 01:13:20,424 --> 01:13:21,744 that is not encrypted 1066 01:13:21,744 --> 01:13:24,104 will like I think 1067 01:13:24,104 --> 01:13:26,004 that will just slowly like every gap 1068 01:13:26,004 --> 01:13:27,063 will be closed there 1069 01:13:27,063 --> 01:13:29,864 and one layer of that 1070 01:13:29,864 --> 01:13:30,844 that I had not 1071 01:13:31,184 --> 01:13:40,323 considered was inside a device um like there's no i saw it on like a podcast or something somebody 1072 01:13:40,323 --> 01:13:49,283 was talking about it i wish i could remember where um but talking about how like the the device the 1073 01:13:49,283 --> 01:13:58,043 the basically where they manipulated the ledger is there was like this foam space around the screen 1074 01:13:58,043 --> 01:14:04,083 and so they scraped out the phone and then put in their little thing within the same little case 1075 01:14:04,083 --> 01:14:10,924 and all it did was basically put a go-between a tiny little cell phone essentially a wife a 1076 01:14:10,924 --> 01:14:17,063 wireless you know cellular uh thing and then plugged the the screen the data into the screen 1077 01:14:17,063 --> 01:14:24,063 into it and then to the screen so it could just read you just look at the screen and um so it's a 1078 01:14:24,063 --> 01:14:28,624 key logger for what was on the screen basically with a cell phone that called somebody and said 1079 01:14:28,624 --> 01:14:35,384 here's the seed words and uh but what was crazy about that was it hadn't hadn't thought about the 1080 01:14:35,384 --> 01:14:42,323 fact until somebody mentioned it was that we have no protocol or no system where the communication 1081 01:14:42,323 --> 01:14:50,884 between the screen and the chip is encrypted where the screen where the data isn't anything 1082 01:14:50,884 --> 01:14:53,444 other than just the raw pixel data. 1083 01:14:53,604 --> 01:14:54,024 Like there's enough, 1084 01:14:54,244 --> 01:14:56,043 one of those doesn't exist. 1085 01:14:56,043 --> 01:14:58,264 So you can just put in a key logger. 1086 01:14:58,543 --> 01:15:00,444 But now we're kind of at this place 1087 01:15:00,444 --> 01:15:02,004 where hardware is so ubiquitous 1088 01:15:02,004 --> 01:15:03,724 and compute is so cheap 1089 01:15:03,724 --> 01:15:05,303 that you can actually do that. 1090 01:15:05,504 --> 01:15:09,164 Where your keyboard actually has a public key 1091 01:15:09,164 --> 01:15:13,444 and actually decodes communication sent to it 1092 01:15:13,444 --> 01:15:16,144 so that if you even plug something into the middle 1093 01:15:16,144 --> 01:15:18,884 between your keyboard and your computer, 1094 01:15:19,524 --> 01:15:20,504 that it can't read it. 1095 01:15:20,884 --> 01:15:50,644 But we've not done, that's not been a thing really, because again, the economics of creating hardware or, you know, getting into becoming a middleman between that was just didn't apply. But all those economics are changing all over the place. And it's going to be weird to think that like, you know, your bus needs to be encrypted from chip to RAM and you're been from GPU to CPU and all this stuff that might literally have every single layer. 1096 01:15:50,884 --> 01:15:54,664 might literally need a key and an encryption and decryption key. 1097 01:15:55,504 --> 01:16:00,543 Until you will have very small cameras that are fixed next to the screen. 1098 01:16:00,664 --> 01:16:03,144 So they just read the screen without an encryption. 1099 01:16:03,644 --> 01:16:07,504 So now you need to encrypt your brain with some kind of nanomachine 1100 01:16:07,504 --> 01:16:10,204 behind your optic nerve. 1101 01:16:10,784 --> 01:16:11,704 Everybody call Musk. 1102 01:16:13,464 --> 01:16:15,524 Call Elon next up. 1103 01:16:15,524 --> 01:16:21,563 oh that's well does something i mean if if you have something like an encryption between 1104 01:16:21,563 --> 01:16:29,124 a hardware device or pieces of your hardware does that not open the door to like this same 1105 01:16:29,124 --> 01:16:36,364 like right to repair problem that you're getting with cars where where like you're you can't update 1106 01:16:36,364 --> 01:16:41,283 a device without permission from the company or i was about to say i would suspect it wouldn't be 1107 01:16:41,283 --> 01:16:42,484 I mean 1108 01:16:42,484 --> 01:16:45,443 if you have a big centralized company 1109 01:16:45,443 --> 01:16:47,063 with an enormous amount of network power 1110 01:16:47,063 --> 01:16:48,924 they would probably use it like that 1111 01:16:48,924 --> 01:16:50,043 or do it like that 1112 01:16:50,043 --> 01:16:53,443 but I think also it could be more 1113 01:16:53,443 --> 01:16:54,684 generic 1114 01:16:54,684 --> 01:16:56,263 like you could establish the key 1115 01:16:56,263 --> 01:16:59,104

well the key would just be native to the device 1116 01:16:59,104 --> 01:17:00,664 you turn it on and it generates a public key 1117 01:17:00,664 --> 01:17:01,463 you know 1118 01:17:01,463 --> 01:17:04,484 and then you plug it in 1119 01:17:04,484 --> 01:17:06,484 it's just like part of the communication standard 1120 01:17:06,484 --> 01:17:08,384 like two computers talking to each other 1121 01:17:08,384 --> 01:17:11,063 you use HTTPS but nobody controls 1122 01:17:11,063 --> 01:17:13,684 which HTTPS key you use, right? 1123 01:17:13,783 --> 01:17:14,984 You generate it. 1124 01:17:15,984 --> 01:17:18,504 And so in my perfect world, 1125 01:17:18,583 --> 01:17:19,624 that's how it happens, 1126 01:17:20,004 --> 01:17:22,924 you know, is that it becomes so ubiquitous 1127 01:17:22,924 --> 01:17:24,484 that you just have to do it. 1128 01:17:24,944 --> 01:17:26,244 But I don't know. 1129 01:17:26,323 --> 01:17:27,424 That's just, that's speculation. 1130 01:17:27,644 --> 01:17:28,964 I don't have any idea. 1131 01:17:28,964 --> 01:17:29,864 Even in software, 1132 01:17:30,124 --> 01:17:31,884 you can make sure that the functions 1133 01:17:31,884 --> 01:17:34,783 will not produce a clear text output, 1134 01:17:34,964 --> 01:17:36,844 but they will produce intrinsically 1135 01:17:36,844 --> 01:17:39,204 some kind of encrypted or scrambled output 1136 01:17:39,204 --> 01:17:42,183 with keys or fingerprint or signatures. 1137 01:17:42,803 --> 01:17:46,844 So a lot of software hacks also can be prevented 1138 01:17:46,844 --> 01:17:50,884 by signing the output of a function 1139 01:17:50,884 --> 01:17:53,203 or encrypting it in some cases. 1140 01:17:53,563 --> 01:17:55,484 Of course, this is just moving the goalpost. 1141 01:17:55,484 --> 01:17:56,703 It's not fixing anything. 1142 01:17:56,844 --> 01:17:57,724 You're just moving things. 1143 01:17:58,183 --> 01:18:00,884 But by moving things, you can make an attack more expensive. 1144 01:18:01,384 --> 01:18:15,525 So that can have a positive effect Yeah As the economics of attack change in one layer you have to move the solution a layer below And I think it makes sense to just especially when you know layer two is getting hit so 1145 01:18:15,525 --> 01:18:21,705 damn hard is that you make a change to layer one and kind of close a category of whole 1146 01:18:21,705 --> 01:18:24,105 that exists in layer two, you know? 1147 01:18:24,105 --> 01:18:28,405 But it just moves, it just moves us one layer down and then we go to layer zero and layer 1148 01:18:28,405 --> 01:18:30,345 or layer 0.9 and layer 0.8, 1149 01:18:30,465 --> 01:18:33,425 like the layers just infinitely get deeper as well. 1150 01:18:33,645 --> 01:18:36,005 You know, everything just gets infinitely smaller 1151 01:18:36,005 --> 01:18:37,645 and we never actually reach a destination. 1152 01:18:37,885 --> 01:18:39,365 We just keep moving down layers. 1153 01:18:40,205 --> 01:18:41,425 We got pretty philosophical. 1154 01:18:42,465

--> 01:18:42,645 Yeah. 1155 01:18:43,705 --> 01:18:45,185 TCP got hit in Linux. 1156 01:18:46,745 --> 01:18:49,545 That's, oh. 1157 01:18:49,845 --> 01:18:54,105 I've got a social attack sort of thing 1158 01:18:54,105 --> 01:18:55,025 that I've been thinking about. 1159 01:18:55,165 --> 01:18:57,625 Is that, have y'all seen the Anakin memes 1160 01:18:57,625 --> 01:19:02,905 that are going around it's literally designed targeted directly at libertarians it starts with 1161 01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:08,825 young anakin and he's like i just want people to follow the non-aggression principle and then it's 1162 01:19:08,825 --> 01:19:15,165 like older anakin and it's like um i saw how they how they treated us or something i saw what they 1163 01:19:15,165 --> 01:19:21,385 did to them or whatever and then and then it's you know darth vader and he's like you know we have to 1164 01:19:21,385 --> 01:19:27,265 enforce like we have to impose our rules with authoritarian whatever and so it's like it's this 1165 01:19:27,265 --> 01:19:34,185 like there's this in my opinion and it's just totally made up but i i feel like this is some 1166 01:19:34,185 --> 01:19:39,665 sort of like like the government finally came up with one meme that kind of you know resonated with 1167 01:19:39,665 --> 01:19:46,505 people and so there's this like psyop that like no no libertarians need to embrace authoritarianism 1168 01:19:46,505 --> 01:19:53,165 because the leftists are never gonna follow your ideas and and i keep like this is like just all 1169 01:19:53,165 --> 01:20:01,965 over the place now and he was even even a guy that is like i guess some sort of semi-libertarian 1170 01:20:01,965 --> 01:20:07,265 alt-right person that was on recently on part of the problem you know was like saying this 1171 01:20:07,265 --> 01:20:12,065 something along these lines in terms of like we need you know something to impose our ideas in 1172 01:20:12,065 --> 01:20:16,965 authoritarian way and dave smith is just kind of like you know like he didn't really have a response 1173 01:20:16,965 --> 01:20:23,665 to that he just but he's like kind of nodding along and and i'm like this is this is the craziest 1174 01:20:23,665 --> 01:20:29,625 thing like i don't i don't understand how this it's like okay and and i keep getting this response 1175 01:20:29,625 --> 01:20:33,445 that like you're just surrounded by evil you just don't know it because you're not getting punched 1176 01:20:33,445 --> 01:20:38,965 in the face and it's where it's like look i know people are evil like there's no like i am completely 1177 01:20:38,965 --> 01:20:46,305 aware of it it doesn't make me want to behave like an animal yeah exactly the point to avoid 1178 01:20:46,305 --> 01:20:50,165 the concentration of power of evil people that will not be magically less evil. 1179 01:20:50,745 --> 01:20:54,465 Yeah, I don't think that you're going to give authoritarian power 1180 01:20:54,465 --> 01:20:58,305 to any sort of conservative Epstein friend, 1181 01:20:58,545 --> 01:21:02,385 and he's going to impose conservatism on everybody. 1182 01:21:02,485 --> 01:21:03,425 This doesn't make any sense. 1183 01:21:03,565 --> 01:21:04,925 This is absolute nonsense. 1184 01:21:04,945 --> 01:21:08,805 So let me do a BIP 110 comparison. 1185 01:21:08,805 --> 01:21:14,925 I was in my BIP 110 debate starting from the North's field 1186 01:21:14,925 --> 01:21:18,365 and then moving rapidly against 110. 1187 01:21:19,285 --> 01:21:23,305 I noticed, I made the point that we tried, 1188 01:21:23,665 --> 01:21:26,665 in my tribe of anti-spam people, 1189 01:21:26,925 --> 01:21:30,805 we tried to enforce a mempool policy change, 1190 01:21:30,925 --> 01:21:34,185 not even to resist a mempool policy change. 1191 01:21:34,545 --> 01:21:37,425 We failed and then frustration set in 1192 01:21:37,425 --> 01:21:38,645 and people started to say, 1193 01:21:38,785 --> 01:21:40,685 okay, we tried, but we failed, 1194 01:21:40,825 --> 01:21:42,405 so now we do a consensus change. 1195 01:21:42,765 --> 01:21:44,305 And my point was always, wait, wait, 1196 01:21:44,305 --> 01:21:47,285 you were too weak to enforce something easier. 1197 01:21:47,785 --> 01:21:49,185 So now out of desperation, 1198 01:21:49,185 --> 01:21:51,425 because you failed into enforcing something weaker, 1199 01:21:51,625 --> 01:21:54,965 you just want to go all in something harder. 1200 01:21:55,905 --> 01:21:57,045 It's right. 1201 01:21:57,305 --> 01:21:58,945 It's actually a perfect example. 1202 01:21:59,265 --> 01:22:02,605 And I actually thought had the exact same response to that 1203 01:22:02,605 --> 01:22:04,585 as I have to what's been going on here. 1204 01:22:04,725 --> 01:22:07,785 The reason there are memes targeting libertarians now 1205 01:22:07,785 --> 01:22:10,145 is because libertarians have been wildly effective. 1206 01:22:10,145 --> 01:22:22,465 Like libertarianism has grown from like 12 people in Murray Rothbard's house in the 70s to like a significant portion of the population. 1207 01:22:23,125 --> 01:22:27,665 And like, you know, maybe still small numbers, but a significant portion of the population. 1208 01:22:28,225 --> 01:22:30,705 Enough to swing something one way or the other. 1209 01:22:31,245 --> 01:22:32,425 Yeah, absolutely. 1210 01:22:32,665 --> 01:22:39,065 They're the vote or the narrative pivot that matters to right or left type. 1211 01:22:39,065 --> 01:22:43,505 Trump had to come to the Libertarian Convention to free Ross Ulbricht because of that. 1212 01:22:43,765 --> 01:22:44,785 So right about the knot. 1213 01:22:45,625 --> 01:22:46,205 A hundred percent. 1214 01:22:46,465 --> 01:22:50,645 And all we have to do is keep doing what we've been doing and be patient. 1215 01:22:50,825 --> 01:22:53,025 Like you're not going to win. 1216 01:22:53,225 --> 01:22:54,585 You're not going to solve. 1217 01:22:54,825 --> 01:22:57,625 You're not going to solve our problems through

politics. 1218 01:22:57,905 --> 01:23:02,085 You're going to solve our problems with the cultural wins that we have been having. 1219 01:23:02,345 --> 01:23:04,305 And you just have to continue doing the same thing. 1220 01:23:04,305 --> 01:23:08,625 And with the mempool thing, I thought we were like the exact same thing. 1221 01:23:08,625 --> 01:23:11,605 is that there were people running NOTS. 1222 01:23:11,885 --> 01:23:13,305 The NOTS numbers were growing. 1223 01:23:13,745 --> 01:23:16,405 There were people like if you have eventually 1224 01:23:16,405 --> 01:23:19,345 you have enough nodes that are anti-spam 1225 01:23:19,345 --> 01:23:22,785 and it gets harder and harder to put spam into the chain. 1226 01:23:23,145 --> 01:23:26,845 That is the solution to me is you just be patient. 1227 01:23:27,285 --> 01:23:29,905 You understand this is a slow moving thing 1228 01:23:29,905 --> 01:23:35,145 and we just do the thing that it doesn't violate any principles. 1229 01:23:35,825 --> 01:23:37,705 We don't want this crap on our computer. 1230 01:23:37,705 --> 01:23:43,505 so we're not going to host it in our mempool until the network forces us until the transaction is made 1231 01:23:43,505 --> 01:23:49,025 until i'm just accepting a block and if it's valid it's valid you know yeah right and so you're not 1232 01:23:49,025 --> 01:23:57,005 doing anything except rejecting stuff you don't want and and nobody can make you you know hold on 1233 01:23:57,005 --> 01:24:02,405 to something you don't want and so it just the network will it'll either solve the problem will 1234 01:24:02,405 --> 01:24:08,565 either solve itself or it won't it's not that big a deal like but i think that's the only way to 1235 01:24:08,565 --> 01:24:14,065 actually get like we were we were making progress and while progress was being made somebody got 1236 01:24:14,065 --> 01:24:19,565 frustrated and was like oh let's let's try it at this level and it's like hi i don't this is not 1237 01:24:19,565 --> 01:24:26,865 it never felt right to me you know i will say one thing about blake to be blake to bitcoin or 1238 01:24:26,865 --> 01:24:31,745 whatever um is that like it's like a perfect example of like we're going to make a perfect 1239 01:24:31,745 --> 01:24:39,005 world for this is the like essentially everybody is kind of forced to run datum and run their own 1240 01:24:39,005 --> 01:24:44,685 node i mean forced like there's a committee and that's that's not what i mean but essentially the 1241 01:24:44,685 --> 01:24:51,705 way it's built is that's that is the focus which is amazing that's fantastic and because of that 1242 01:24:51,705 --> 01:24:57,625 they have an enormous like i don't even know i haven't kept up with it totally but i've just 1243 01:24:57,625 --> 01:24:59,825 casually in various conversations 1244 01:24:59,825 --> 01:25:01,625 seen people say, oh, this pool is 1245 01:25:01,625 --> 01:25:03,885 full on Datum now and this is 1246 01:25:03,885 --> 01:25:05,745 all full Datum and it's like a huge 1247 01:25:05,745 --> 01:25:07,885 overwhelming majority of the network and stuff 1248 01:25:07,885 --> 01:25:10,045 and it's like, that's great, but it's 1249 01:25:10,045 --> 01:25:11,945 still smaller than the 1250 01:25:11,945 --> 01:25:13,905 amount of hash power that was running Datum 1251 01:25:13,905 --> 01:25:15,565 on Bitcoin because 1252 01:25:15,565 --> 01:25:17,845 it's now forked off. So percentage 1253 01:25:17,845 --> 01:25:19,985 wise is way more on 1254 01:25:19,985 --> 01:25:21,925 Blank2B, which is great. That's the perfect world, but it's 1255 01:25:21,925 --> 01:25:23,845 less hash power than 1256 01:25:23,845 --> 01:25:25,825 the actual Bitcoin network that 1257 01:25:25,825 --> 01:25:26,665 was running Datum. 1258 01:25:27,625 --> 01:25:31,985 in the grand scheme of how much energy and capital is being put to this defense. 1259 01:25:32,745 --> 01:25:36,145 And it's like went for perfect, but sacrificed depth. 1260 01:25:37,185 --> 01:25:37,405 You know? 1261 01:25:38,165 --> 01:25:45,025 And it's like, I just wanted to keep that game up on Bitcoin proper. 1262 01:25:45,665 --> 01:25:50,105 Since I'm winning too slowly in reality, let me win faster in fantasy, 1263 01:25:50,405 --> 01:25:52,905 which is exactly like the post-libertarian fantasy. 1264 01:25:52,905 --> 01:25:58,165 There are many Bitcoiner friends that are now tempted by this post-libertarianism. 1265 01:25:58,665 --> 01:26:04,425 And their argument is like, yeah, we try to just prevent aggression against us, 1266 01:26:05,005 --> 01:26:06,525 but it's not going any way. 1267 01:26:06,925 --> 01:26:12,765 So let's just instaurate a new paradisiac ethnostate 1268 01:26:12,765 --> 01:26:16,265 and get back the land of our ancestors and the bloodline. 1269 01:26:16,265 --> 01:26:20,124 Wait, you failed to just secure your wrench against the taxman. 1270 01:26:20,124 --> 01:26:24,904 And now after that failure, you want to take back the land of your ancestors. 1271 01:26:25,345 --> 01:26:27,565 This is like a little bit more ambitious. 1272 01:26:27,985 --> 01:26:36,084 So everything post-libertarian is incredibly more ambitious than what libertarian was even claiming to try to achieve. 1273 01:26:36,365 --> 01:26:48,584 And they are using the lack of patience for the easy result in order to basically hijack people's focus and attention into a completely realistic thing. 1274 01:26:48,584 --> 01:26:53,624 Like you did fail to just keep the IRS out of your property. 1275 01:26:54,104 --> 01:27:00,465 And now you're going to actually control the federal government by using Trump or whatever. 1276 01:27:00,845 --> 01:27:05,384 This is so much absurdly harder than that. 1277 01:27:05,664 --> 01:27:07,064 It's an incredible trap. 1278 01:27:07,624 --> 01:27:09,465 And it's effective, though. 1279 01:27:09,904 --> 01:27:12,465 I think it plays on some other psychological mechanism. 1280 01:27:12,465 --> 01:27:20,785 One

of that is that some libertarians, especially some libertarian thought leaders and some Bitcoiners, they are contrarian. 1281 01:27:21,185 --> 01:27:25,584 So when we were surrounded by normies, being libertarian felt contrarian. 1282 01:27:25,924 --> 01:27:28,064 So we were feeling edgy and cool. 1283 01:27:28,584 --> 01:27:41,924 Now, by signaling our values and by selecting, I know, but if you signal your principles and you start to peer up with people like you, after a while, everybody around you is libertarian. 1284 01:27:41,924 --> 01:27:44,445 So in Bitcoin conference, yeah, we're all libertarian. 1285 01:27:45,164 --> 01:27:47,904 It is rational. 1286 01:27:48,164 --> 01:27:48,945 It is right. 1287 01:27:49,325 --> 01:27:54,765 If I think about that rationally, I know it's right, but it doesn't feel that edgy anymore 1288 01:27:54,765 --> 01:27:56,924 while I'm surrounded by libertarians. 1289 01:27:57,104 --> 01:28:00,445 In order to feel back that way, I have to go back to normies. 1290 01:28:00,545 --> 01:28:01,685 I have to speak with my uncle. 1291 01:28:02,104 --> 01:28:06,765 So if I go back to normies, I rediscover how edgy libertarianism is. 1292 01:28:06,765 --> 01:28:21,285 But if I stay around libertarians, many intelligent people that enjoy too much to be contrarian, they will become post-libertarians just for the love of feeling different from the new social consensus around them. 1293 01:28:22,045 --> 01:28:27,265 It's a little bit like if the anti-poverty organization solves poverty, like, what do we do now? 1294 01:28:28,785 --> 01:28:30,364 Social justice. 1295 01:28:32,525 --> 01:28:33,164 Yes. 1296 01:28:33,164 --> 01:28:40,644 yes i am very much ayn rand i think has a quote that's like you can't just be against something 1297 01:28:40,644 --> 01:28:45,404 you have to have something you know before something productive that you're aiming for 1298 01:28:45,404 --> 01:28:53,025 and and i like a hundred percent think that is like a core part of the problem is that so many 1299 01:28:53,025 --> 01:28:58,045 libertarians have just identified themselves as against the government or against the crowd or 1300 01:28:58,045 --> 01:29:05,424 against whatever and they're not they're not actually building anything or you know like if 1301 01:29:05,424 --> 01:29:12,785 you don't have something to tie you to they don't have an anchor for progress yeah i got into 1302 01:29:12,785 --> 01:29:18,225 libertarianism because i was trying to do things and the government was in the way and if i get the 1303 01:29:18,225 --> 01:29:24,164 government out of the way now i can do things and so whether i do that technologically or whatever 1304 01:29:24,164 --> 01:29:25,705 that's not a 1305 01:29:25,705 --> 01:29:27,505 I know what I'm doing 1306 01:29:27,505 --> 01:29:30,325 if you just got into it because it was cool 1307 01:29:30,325 --> 01:29:31,245 to be against the government 1308 01:29:31,245 --> 01:29:32,745 now 1309 01:29:32,745 --> 01:29:34,845 what are we doing? 1310 01:29:35,144 --> 01:29:36,225 I saw somebody actually 1311 01:29:36,225 --> 01:29:39,884 talking about the psychology 1312 01:29:39,884 --> 01:29:41,604 of one of the reasons 1313 01:29:41,604 --> 01:29:43,965 the left has gotten so 1314 01:29:43,965 --> 01:29:45,785 has basically 1315 01:29:45,785 --> 01:29:48,005 spiraled into this crazy 1316 01:29:48,005 --> 01:29:50,225 more ephemeral and vague 1317 01:29:50,225 --> 01:29:52,365 and hand wavy and can't even define 1318 01:29:52,365 --> 01:29:53,785 anything sorts of 1319 01:29:54,164 --> 01:29:59,945 activism and these notions of like, like people don't have any rights. 1320 01:29:59,945 --> 01:30:02,365 And you ask them, it's like, well, what rights are taken away? 1321 01:30:02,445 --> 01:30:05,825 And then it's just like, people don't have any rights, you know, like it's a minority 1322 01:30:05,825 --> 01:30:07,025 and all this stuff. 1323 01:30:07,025 --> 01:30:13,664 They, and they go to greater and greater extremes to places that they can't define and where 1324 01:30:13,664 --> 01:30:15,924 they just associate feelings to get offended. 1325 01:30:16,545 --> 01:30:22,465 And like one of the reasons it's spiraled and it just naturally spirals so far out of 1326 01:30:22,465 --> 01:30:29,485 control is that when all you are is against something and you're an activist, like you've 1327 01:30:29,485 --> 01:30:36,365 defined yourself as an activist. If the thing that you're being an activist about is no longer 1328 01:30:36,365 --> 01:30:43,384 relevant or is, has fundamentally changed the conversation, like, like, you know, something 1329 01:30:43,384 --> 01:30:47,705 it's like pushed out of the realm of government or something is that, well, now you have to go, 1330 01:30:47,705 --> 01:30:53,144 You just built this identity and this association that you're here solving the world's problems. 1331 01:30:53,545 --> 01:30:59,205 You're a hero because of what you're angry about, because of what you want to destroy, 1332 01:30:59,985 --> 01:31:03,525 your justice incarnate. 1333 01:31:04,205 --> 01:31:20,986 The second that no longer your focus you just go back to being a normal person that has no career future that was an activist because their life wasn going anywhere and they were just exhausted and they had no idea what to do 1334 01:31:20,986 --> 01:31:29,806 And they're still a barista, you know, at a coffee shop somewhere, even though they have a, you know, $200,000 debt and feminine studies or something. 1335 01:31:30,925 --> 01:31:33,586 And so they don't want to go back to that. 1336 01:31:33,726 --> 01:31:57,885 And so they're so easily led, like just the tiniest amount of just hold my hand for a second. And here's this new thing to be an activist about. They just walk right into that because their identity is being an activist. So it's just, I just, I just get just so cleanly and easily pushed right into a different path of being an activist

about this crazy thing that I never even cared about or wasn't even prevalent. 1337 01:31:57,885 --> 01:32:03,586 There's no, nothing of consequence ever happened in this area, but like now I'm going to make it an issue. 1338 01:32:03,586 --> 01:32:06,945 And then I'm going to be so obnoxious about it that people are going to argue with me. 1339 01:32:06,966 --> 01:32:10,566 And then suddenly I feel like, oh, this was the fight all along. 1340 01:32:10,566 --> 01:32:14,185 And I'm still an activist and I'm still the hero of the world. 1341 01:32:14,185 --> 01:32:15,526 And then it's just a cycle. 1342 01:32:15,645 --> 01:32:17,925 And like, they should never want to go back to being an old person. 1343 01:32:17,925 --> 01:32:43,066 I thought that was like so kind of like prescient or such a great part of like the human psychology of, you know, what happens when you go down these roads of just your whole world and your whole identity is just against something that you're not or something that you dislike and you have no anchor for anything to do after the situation changes. 1344 01:32:43,066 --> 01:32:58,006 Going to a bunch of ANCAP meetups, for sure, there's always been a significant percentage of the ANCAPs that are sweaty, weird, unfortunate people. 1345 01:32:59,206 --> 01:33:05,685 And Bitcoin, honestly, was a step up. 1346 01:33:06,405 --> 01:33:11,506 These were now the ANCAPs that actually had... 1347 01:33:11,506 --> 01:33:12,685 These are ANCAPs who take showers. 1348 01:33:13,066 --> 01:33:15,885 Yeah, yeah, pretty much. 1349 01:33:16,885 --> 01:33:18,786 Most of them. 1350 01:33:18,905 --> 01:33:21,105 No, no, I totally agree that the quality, 1351 01:33:21,346 --> 01:33:22,846 the personal quality of people in Bitcoin 1352 01:33:22,846 --> 01:33:24,986 is superior than in most libertarian circles 1353 01:33:24,986 --> 01:33:28,966 because any kind of ideology which is in the minority 1354 01:33:28,966 --> 01:33:31,786 will gather people that are not there 1355 01:33:31,786 --> 01:33:33,466 because of rational understanding, 1356 01:33:33,586 --> 01:33:36,105 but because they feel their shortcomings, 1357 01:33:36,105 --> 01:33:38,905 so they don't fit, they don't get results, 1358 01:33:39,246 --> 01:33:41,105 so they are outcasts. 1359 01:33:41,105 --> 01:33:43,445 sometimes for good reasons 1360 01:33:43,445 --> 01:33:45,026 like they have improved their life 1361 01:33:45,026 --> 01:33:46,566 and their interactions 1362 01:33:46,566 --> 01:33:49,645 and they just blame the scapegoat 1363 01:33:49,645 --> 01:33:51,445 of society or the government 1364 01:33:51,445 --> 01:33:52,925 or the Jews or whatever 1365 01:33:52,925 --> 01:33:55,286 so it's very easy to have that 1366 01:33:55,286 --> 01:33:57,165 in Bitcoin after a while 1367 01:33:57,165 --> 01:33:59,286 at least 50% of the time it is the Jews 1368 01:33:59,286 --> 01:34:00,605 though, you got it in it 1369 01:34:00,605 --> 01:34:03,846 at least 50% of the time it's totally

the Jews 1370 01:34:03,846 --> 01:34:05,746 yeah sure 1371 01:34:05,746 --> 01:34:07,326 just a caveat 1372 01:34:07,326 --> 01:34:09,405 in case anybody was thinking we were saying 1373 01:34:09,405 --> 01:34:10,885 they weren't involved at all 1374 01:34:11,105 --> 01:34:12,445 Most of your problems. 1375 01:34:14,385 --> 01:34:21,605 But the thing is that when you are in Bitcoin, you get some money. 1376 01:34:21,905 --> 01:34:26,746 You basically fix part of your life if you manage to not fuck it up. 1377 01:34:27,185 --> 01:34:33,566 And that takes away the pure resentment base for your ideology. 1378 01:34:33,766 --> 01:34:37,706 It's not that you are just blaming society because your life sucks. 1379 01:34:37,706 --> 01:34:39,165 Now your life is better. 1380 01:34:39,605 --> 01:34:40,546 You get a family. 1381 01:34:40,546 --> 01:34:48,826 you get life savings. And now, if you keep your ideas going, that must be not because you are just 1382 01:34:48,826 --> 01:34:54,405 trying to blame your shortcomings on society. Now you are trying to defend something that you care 1383 01:34:54,405 --> 01:35:00,266 for in a positive way. So it's not that Bitcoiners are perfect. There is a lot of weird stuff going 1384 01:35:00,266 --> 01:35:07,546 on there as well. Sometimes people that get, so these people become socially functional because 1385 01:35:07,546 --> 01:35:12,066 of Bitcoin, but they don't learn all the other things that can bring somebody to be socially 1386 01:35:12,066 --> 01:35:16,846 functional. So you can have this kind of weird phenomenon that without Bitcoin, they would 1387 01:35:16,846 --> 01:35:22,605 be outcast, but with Bitcoin, they are very rich outcasts. So they can now pretend to 1388 01:35:22,605 --> 01:35:30,526 be part of society. But I agree that the libertarians, that the amount of freak shows 1389 01:35:30,526 --> 01:35:36,006 I've seen in my libertarian days before Bitcoin are not comparable. 1390 01:35:37,546 --> 01:35:46,826 we're the best libertarians for anybody for anybody who's listening there are no libertarians 1391 01:35:46,826 --> 01:35:55,066 as good as the bitcoin libertarians so so here here's another thing that i've that i've been 1392 01:35:55,066 --> 01:36:01,925 thinking about like kind of off and on lately i think it is my like again all of this is very like 1393 01:36:01,925 --> 01:36:03,665 you know, speculation. 1394 01:36:04,105 --> 01:36:06,066 Perfectly factual and verifiable 1395 01:36:06,066 --> 01:36:07,546 and the AI agrees with me. 1396 01:36:08,506 --> 01:36:09,766 It is 1397 01:36:09,766 --> 01:36:11,645 based on, you know, 1398 01:36:11,746 --> 01:36:13,605 observations. I think 1399 01:36:13,605 --> 01:36:15,486 that the world really, and 1400 01:36:15,486 --> 01:36:18,066 maybe it's not so 1401 01:36:18,066 --> 01:36:19,766 conscious or orchestrated, 1402 01:36:20,085 --> 01:36:21,405 but there is some 1403 01:36:21,405 --> 01:36:23,925 level of it, appears to be, 1404 01:36:24,445

--> 01:36:25,885 that we have these, you know, 1405 01:36:26,026 --> 01:36:27,885 inbred pedo families that are a problem 1406 01:36:27,885 --> 01:36:29,405 in the world, right? The same 1407 01:36:29,405 --> 01:36:31,506 people that established the central banks 1408 01:36:31,506 --> 01:36:35,165 are also the people that created Israel or did all these other things. 1409 01:36:35,925 --> 01:36:42,865 And so I think that we have these sort of, call them psychopaths or whatever, 1410 01:36:43,006 --> 01:36:45,605 there's this very, very, very small percentage of society. 1411 01:36:45,605 --> 01:36:51,905 They have a tendency to align themselves with each other in a weird way 1412 01:36:51,905 --> 01:36:54,566 because there's sort of a mutually assured destruction. 1413 01:36:55,546 --> 01:36:58,206 And they infiltrate high trust groups. 1414 01:36:58,905 --> 01:37:00,645 And so it is not actually the Jews. 1415 01:37:00,645 --> 01:37:23,145 I think it is actually just that you don't think so? The Jewish people were a high trust group that had a victim label that was very, very ripe for infiltration. But you also see the same infiltration in Mormonism in in like Black Lives Matter, Occupy Wall Street, everywhere, right, right. 1416 01:37:23,145 --> 01:37:30,546 Yeah, all over the place. And I think we have I mean, like, I'm fairly certain there has been some of that in Bitcoin community, too. 1417 01:37:30,546 --> 01:37:36,806 I think hopefully that the Bitcoin community is a bit more difficult to infiltrate. 1418 01:37:36,806 --> 01:37:55,885 I think the more you are built, your ideas are built in or based in reality and rational and your people are skeptical, you know, trust nobody, whatever, trust but verify, whatever the slogan is or don't trust, verify that it's harder to infiltrate. 1419 01:37:55,885 --> 01:37:59,885 But I think that we need, and maybe in the... 1420 01:37:59,885 --> 01:38:01,286 I think feedback is just faster. 1421 01:38:02,226 --> 01:38:02,766 That's fair. 1422 01:38:03,026 --> 01:38:06,766 But maybe in the networks that we're trying to build or whatever, 1423 01:38:07,246 --> 01:38:09,346 again, reputation will help, you know, 1424 01:38:09,746 --> 01:38:16,766 keep a lot of the chaos agents out or at bay anyway. 1425 01:38:18,266 --> 01:38:23,145 But I really think, I mean, because Noster's full of chaos agents, right? 1426 01:38:23,145 --> 01:38:28,006 Like this is like we do have our circles that we can kind of we know who we're talking to. 1427 01:38:28,566 --> 01:38:33,605 But if you go to, you know, broader Noster or whatever, it's it's you know, it's crazy. 1428 01:38:34,185 --> 01:38:49,306 And then there are people that are connected to, you know, people that are clearly like there is this alt right, whatever, like, you know, Anakin type humor that has been around for a long time that is really, really unhealthy. 1429 01:38:49,306 --> 01:38:57,006 but it's it's a it's a you know heavy presence in in like some of

the outer rings of you know 1430 01:38:57,006 --> 01:39:05,085 nostril social circles um and so like i think that there is a a need to if we're going to have high 1431 01:39:05,085 --> 01:39:11,546 trust groups or high trust society in general there's a need to like have defenses specifically 1432 01:39:11,546 --> 01:39:16,506 be aware that these things are happening these people there are infiltrators always and that 1433 01:39:16,506 --> 01:39:19,046 These things are like, you know, something. 1434 01:39:19,246 --> 01:39:22,846 I mean, I guess it's, you know, we need a network of validation like Bitcoin or something. 1435 01:39:23,026 --> 01:39:23,445 I don't know. 1436 01:39:23,625 --> 01:39:26,145 Nodes that all validate. 1437 01:39:27,425 --> 01:39:29,026 Yeah, I think that. 1438 01:39:29,026 --> 01:39:42,746 So one thing that you have with stuff like you said, Jews, Mormons, is also that this like ethnic or linguistic or religious proximity, 1439 01:39:42,746 --> 01:39:48,105 They are the only kind of adversarial networks that can scale up. 1440 01:39:48,605 --> 01:39:53,625 So usually you have the group of friends or the family, but the scale is limited. 1441 01:39:53,845 --> 01:40:02,045 So you cannot perceive this kind of unfair us versus them conflict over resources at scale 1442 01:40:02,045 --> 01:40:07,306 because families are naturally constrained and even small villages are naturally constrained. 1443 01:40:07,306 --> 01:40:13,746 what you get with this kind of particularly compact ethnic groups 1444 01:40:13,746 --> 01:40:17,326 that are often results of migrations or persecution. 1445 01:40:17,925 --> 01:40:21,566 I've seen, for example, the Armenian diaspora. 1446 01:40:21,766 --> 01:40:23,366 It's also, they work together. 1447 01:40:23,766 --> 01:40:25,746 They trust each other even if they don't know each other. 1448 01:40:25,806 --> 01:40:29,806 It's like this kind of extended family, which is typical also of Judaism. 1449 01:40:30,386 --> 01:40:33,986 And I've seen it in Christian groups as well. 1450 01:40:33,986 --> 01:40:37,645 My parents, they were part of this Catholic movement. 1451 01:40:38,206 --> 01:40:41,046 And my parents, they are chill people. 1452 01:40:41,506 --> 01:40:45,866 But this movement became very, very strong around Milan and Lombardy. 1453 01:40:46,326 --> 01:40:48,806 And they got the government of the region. 1454 01:40:49,226 --> 01:40:53,145 And then there was a moment in the early 2000s in which this movement 1455 01:40:53,145 --> 01:40:58,966 had basically was expressing most of the university leaders, industry, some judges. 1456 01:40:59,185 --> 01:41:01,546 It was a real low-key mafia. 1457 01:41:01,546 --> 01:41:10,625 They were not extorting money from people, that's the government, but they were hiring each other and ostracizing other people. 1458 01:41:10,766 --> 01:41:12,466 They became an in-group. 1459 01:41:12,925 --> 01:41:22,466 And that was done because they were previously a minority group during the 70s, during the most communist part of Italian history. 1460 01:41:22,685 --> 01:41:25,386 They were persecuted to some degree. 1461 01:41:25,566 --> 01:41:29,806 That creates this kind of unity at scale that then is perceivable. 1462 01:41:29,806 --> 01:41:36,345 But I don't think that it's surprising that any kind of group with a strong identity can create that. 1463 01:41:36,726 --> 01:41:44,786 In Bitcoin, I think we can rest assured that we are relatively immune, not absolutely, but relatively immune, 1464 01:41:44,966 --> 01:41:52,746 because we created a culture which is very loose in terms of nationality, language. 1465 01:41:54,045 --> 01:41:56,565 It's very diverse internally. 1466 01:41:57,565 --> 01:41:59,085 Diversity is our strength. 1467 01:41:59,806 --> 01:42:07,306 could say if we wanted to go all gay and woke. It's very, it's very heterogeneous. And part of 1468 01:42:07,306 --> 01:42:13,925 the culture is this slayer hero attitude, which sometimes when you are on the other, on the 1469 01:42:13,925 --> 01:42:20,445 receiving side of that, it hurts. Sometimes people will slay me and that's unpleasant. But overall, 1470 01:42:20,445 --> 01:42:26,006 it's a protection to me as well, because it means that the incentive for an external agent of chaos 1471 01:42:26,006 --> 01:42:31,846 to capture me is lower because they know that people will just send me to fuck myself very, 1472 01:42:31,846 --> 01:42:33,826 very easily out of nothing. 1473 01:42:34,306 --> 01:42:36,385 And that's a very good thing that is protecting me. 1474 01:42:37,006 --> 01:42:40,925 Even if they're not doing anything malicious or whatever, you might just get fucked because 1475 01:42:40,925 --> 01:42:43,625 you tweeted the wrong thing after you got out of the shower. 1476 01:42:44,945 --> 01:42:50,645 In Bitcoin, you can become the bad guy very, very easily, which is a good thing. 1477 01:42:50,645 --> 01:43:05,766 It hurts in the short term, but in the long term will protect leadership figures from being very, very attractive for blackmail or any kind of external influence. 1478 01:43:05,766 --> 01:43:11,266 well and you see that a lot in the podcast world too is that as soon as a podcaster starts starts 1479 01:43:11,266 --> 01:43:17,165 like espousing the the mainstream zionist propaganda or whatever everybody's like oh 1480 01:43:17,165 --> 01:43:21,726 he got the call or whatever and they just like their numbers drop and everything you know everything 1481 01:43:21,726 --> 01:43:27,246 shifts away so that's that's it that is very good you know healthy development in the world i guess 1482 01:43:27,246 --> 01:43:34,565 yeah and it's interesting too in that way because i think part of it you know because in bitcoin you 1483 01:43:34,565 --> 01:43:40,625 can get canceled for opinions on every damn thing like i feel like i was getting railed against by 1484 01:43:40,625 --> 01:43:44,125 bip 110ers when i said one thing and then i

was getting railed against 1485 01:43:44,125 --> 01:43:50,246 cortards when i said the next thing and i thought i was being consistent i had i had like 1486 01:43:50,246 --> 01:43:57,865 i i felt like i had a view that made sense to me at least um but it depended on which way it 1487 01:43:57,865 --> 01:44:02,986 sounded at any particular time i was just this biggest piece of shit you know um or i was 1488 01:44:02,986 --> 01:44:04,846 threatening, I was dangerous to people. 1489 01:44:05,986 --> 01:44:09,966 And and that happens on so many little issues because 1490 01:44:09,979 --> 01:44:13,419 of the actual diversity of other beliefs. 1491 01:44:14,459 --> 01:44:16,399 You know, because like Seyfedine's got raked 1492 01:44:16,399 --> 01:44:19,179 before by a whole subsection of Bitcoiners 1493 01:44:19,179 --> 01:44:20,779 because of his stuff on climate change. 1494 01:44:21,179 --> 01:44:23,939 There is like a lot of diversity in other things 1495 01:44:23,939 --> 01:44:27,519 and so often Bitcoin is the only thing we actually agree on. 1496 01:44:27,519 --> 01:44:30,159 And don't forget stainless steel, 1497 01:44:31,219 --> 01:44:33,939 the pen metal, that was a big thing. 1498 01:44:35,339 --> 01:44:36,159 You bitch. 1499 01:44:36,159 --> 01:44:38,379 aluminum 1500 01:44:38,379 --> 01:44:41,039 ceramic all the way 1501 01:44:41,039 --> 01:44:41,719 okay 1502 01:44:41,719 --> 01:44:44,179 cancel 1503 01:44:44,179 --> 01:44:47,279 yeah that's it I'm done 1504 01:44:47,279 --> 01:44:49,579 I'll never recover from that one 1505 01:44:49,579 --> 01:44:51,979 the Jews would be fine 1506 01:44:51,979 --> 01:44:53,279 I would have made it back from the Jews 1507 01:44:53,279 --> 01:44:55,579 but ceramic aluminum pans 1508 01:44:55,579 --> 01:44:57,439 absolutely not 1509 01:44:57,439 --> 01:44:57,939 this is too much 1510 01:44:57,939 --> 01:45:00,979 I think they've been more recently 1511 01:45:00,979 --> 01:45:02,999 got nailed for simping 1512 01:45:02,999 --> 01:45:04,379 for Michael Saylor 1513 01:45:04,379 --> 01:45:07,159 like this 1514 01:45:07,159 --> 01:45:08,759 sailor fanboyism 1515 01:45:08,759 --> 01:45:10,959 where in chapter 8 of 1516 01:45:10,959 --> 01:45:12,819 the Bitcoin standards it says there's only 1517 01:45:12,819 --> 01:45:14,899 one way to own Bitcoin which is 1518 01:45:14,899 --> 01:45:16,799 by private keys and then he just 1519 01:45:16,799 --> 01:45:18,759 blasts out how he loves 1520 01:45:18,759 --> 01:45:20,579 how much Bitcoin Michael 1521 01:45:20,579 --> 01:45:22,479 Saylor owns like direct 1522 01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:23,159 contradiction 1523 01:45:23,159 --> 01:45:26,219 yep 1524 01:45:26,219 --> 01:45:27,719 that's how it goes 1525 01:45:27,719 --> 01:45:29,699 in Bitcoin and it's 1526 01:45:29,699 --> 01:45:32,199 a healthier concept 1527 01:45:32,199 --> 01:45:38,039 culture than what we have in the mainstream because it's so much it's like inflation we cancel 1528 01:45:38,039 --> 01:45:44,519 so much and so often that cancellation is not that valuable anymore we can really hang out with 1529 01:45:44,519 --> 01:45:49,479 cancel people very soon because we just cancel each other every day over any kind of shit yeah 1530 01:45:49,479 --> 01:45:56,039 i'm still gonna like if safety and says something good yeah yeah i get like railed against on 1531 01:45:56,039 --> 01:46:01,079 twitter or whatever i'm just like i'm gonna cut this off for i'll be back in a week i'll be back 1532 01:46:01,079 --> 01:46:02,719 a week and I'm going to go get some work done 1533 01:46:02,719 --> 01:46:04,639 and just let these bitches 1534 01:46:04,639 --> 01:46:06,799 scream at each other in my thread 1535 01:46:06,799 --> 01:46:08,799 and that's that. 1536 01:46:12,179 --> 01:46:12,579 Yeah. 1537 01:46:12,879 --> 01:46:14,839 It's not a permanent cancellation. 1538 01:46:16,359 --> 01:46:16,959 You know, 1539 01:46:17,459 --> 01:46:19,039 it's not too late to do Bit.10. 1540 01:46:19,999 --> 01:46:20,979 You guys have been talking about it. 1541 01:46:20,979 --> 01:46:22,099 It sounds like you want to do it again. 1542 01:46:23,179 --> 01:46:24,919 You guys want to give it another go 1543 01:46:24,919 --> 01:46:26,599 next summer? Give it another try. 1544 01:46:26,799 --> 01:46:28,339 Give it a year. Give it a year. 1545 01:46:28,779 --> 01:46:30,159 Give it another try. 1546 01:46:30,159 --> 01:46:31,819 I'm warming up to it, okay? 1547 01:46:33,239 --> 01:46:40,719 Now, finally, when the next folk war may be the one in which I can finally side with the defense. 1548 01:46:40,719 --> 01:46:55,799 So if they try to do some kind of quantum bullshit or stuff like that, I can finally play the part that can easily win, which is conservatism, which is highly asymmetrically advantageous in Bitcoin. 1549 01:46:55,799 --> 01:47:09,199 So I really hope that BuildBitcoin will try something like a sailor mandated quantum fork and I can finally try to resist a fork, which is way easier than enforcing a fork. 1550 01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:24,379 I hope it's tail emissions. I want that one to shut the F up. Like I want to be done. I mean, I don't think there's enough support actually for it to go anywhere. So it probably won't. But that would be a great one to see. 1551 01:47:24,379 --> 01:47:30,219 you know like black rock or somebody try to support make a bunch of fud about security or 1552 01:47:30,219 --> 01:47:37,439 whatever and then support tail emissions and then and then we we throw that in their face and i get 1553 01:47:37,439 --> 01:47:43,199 i would love oh man i would feel like that activist who's saving the world again i'm running my node 1554 01:47:43,199 --> 01:47:51,979 bitch so is the reason that we're not getting tons of spam now just because the the ai generated 1555 01:47:51,979 --> 01:47:55,019 monkeys are not the best use of AI anymore. 1556 01:47:55,179 --> 01:47:57,179 People are just devoting their... 1557 01:47:57,179 --> 01:47:59,059 It just wore

itself out. 1558 01:47:59,359 --> 01:48:00,439 It didn't have any economic legs. 1559 01:48:00,439 --> 01:48:00,459 It didn't have any economic legs. 1560 01:48:01,459 --> 01:48:05,499 I mean, there's still tokens and... 1561 01:48:05,499 --> 01:48:06,519 Yeah, has it gone down? 1562 01:48:06,719 --> 01:48:08,459 I'm not sure it's gone down a lot. 1563 01:48:08,539 --> 01:48:09,179 No, it did. 1564 01:48:09,519 --> 01:48:10,519 I think it did go down. 1565 01:48:10,539 --> 01:48:11,079 Has it not? 1566 01:48:11,379 --> 01:48:12,499 There's just the fees. 1567 01:48:13,179 --> 01:48:14,919 I was going to say the fees are just low. 1568 01:48:15,039 --> 01:48:18,719 I was about to say, I think it's just the economic weight of it is less. 1569 01:48:18,719 --> 01:48:20,519 like it's not 1570 01:48:20,519 --> 01:48:22,179 it's not pushing fees up anywhere 1571 01:48:22,179 --> 01:48:24,779 because they're only buying empty block 1572 01:48:24,779 --> 01:48:26,719 space basically when they're doing it 1573 01:48:26,719 --> 01:48:28,699 but yeah I think they're a buyer of 1574 01:48:28,699 --> 01:48:30,699 last resort you know like when 1575 01:48:30,699 --> 01:48:32,679 there's empty block space and the 1576 01:48:32,679 --> 01:48:34,519 fees are one sat per vbite or less 1577 01:48:34,519 --> 01:48:36,779 they do it yes you know why not 1578 01:48:36,779 --> 01:48:38,619 because we're not I 1579 01:48:38,619 --> 01:48:39,879 think that the NFT 1580 01:48:39,879 --> 01:48:41,799 hype was the 1581 01:48:41,799 --> 01:48:44,339 cycle nonsense shit 1582 01:48:44,339 --> 01:48:46,619 nonsense it was already 1583 01:48:46,619 --> 01:48:48,319 going down on shit coins 1584 01:48:48,319 --> 01:48:54,399 and the idea on NFT on Bitcoin was the last leg of the dying hype. 1585 01:48:54,959 --> 01:49:01,379 And so the actual expensive attempt to scam people with that stuff 1586 01:49:01,379 --> 01:49:04,939 was at the very beginning of BRC20 and Runes, 1587 01:49:05,559 --> 01:49:08,659 where there was actually fist spikes because of that. 1588 01:49:08,759 --> 01:49:16,079 Now it's just residual zero-cost trolling just because, yeah, why not? 1589 01:49:16,079 --> 01:49:24,419 but isn't isn't it hasn't it transitioned just away from images and to uh tokens like like runes 1590 01:49:24,419 --> 01:49:31,059 inscription tokens where people are like minting their own token coins now using those inscriptions 1591 01:49:31,059 --> 01:49:37,159 i think it's the other way around i think that ordinals created the token systems and then the 1592 01:49:37,159 --> 01:49:45,139 idea of inscriptions created some kind of narrative around the token and and then runes removed again 1593 01:49:45,139 --> 01:49:51,459 the thing from this basic BRC20 on-chain footprint. 1594 01:49:52,179 --> 01:49:55,199 And now I think people are just keeping trading 1595 01:49:55,199 --> 01:49:59,459 because these things are very diehard. 1596 01:50:00,039 --> 01:50:04,919 Even other sheet coins, they never really die for many, many years. 1597 01:50:04,919 --> 01:50:11,219 And you have this residual kind of trading noise keeping going. 1598 01:50:12,579 --> 01:50:14,319 I think it's also indicative of the fact 1599 01:50:14,319 --> 01:50:19,959 you kind of have to change the narrative of what why it's worth something because the dull one just 1600 01:50:19,959 --> 01:50:27,079 died it peters out very quickly um but um i do still think there will be tokens on top of stuff 1601 01:50:27,079 --> 01:50:33,119 but i don't think it will be like i don't think it's meaningful economic activity and the i think 1602 01:50:33,119 --> 01:50:37,499 arc and lightning and these sorts of things where you're actually moving real coins just in a 1603 01:50:37,499 --> 01:50:47,059 different way you get some sort of explicit feature or alternative network dynamics from 1604 01:50:47,059 --> 01:51:00,077 the asset whether it ends up being called ARK Bitcoin or whatever the hell it is And of course there be custodians too There be e and there be all this stuff But I mean that the natural Steve you mentioned this like very early There always going to be 1605 01:51:00,077 --> 01:51:06,317 alternatives like paper Bitcoin or something that has some sort of a specific purpose or that is 1606 01:51:06,317 --> 01:51:12,097 created by some institution for whatever reason. And I think we'll just have a lot of that. And 1607 01:51:12,097 --> 01:51:23,217 And as we move into an area where a lot of that is programmatic or a lot of that is like actually a cryptography system or protocol, you get the easy version first. 1608 01:51:23,217 --> 01:51:26,997 You just like print some tokens on Bitcoin and then you sell them. 1609 01:51:26,997 --> 01:51:32,597 And it's like, you know, you like you, you've sell tokens of bullshit, nothingness before 1610 01:51:32,597 --> 01:51:39,637 you're actually selling stock, like meaningful, like contracts or something, or a leveraged 1611 01:51:39,637 --> 01:51:42,497 custodial thing, um, down the line. 1612 01:51:42,497 --> 01:51:47,077 So if there's, if there's anything of consequence that ever shows, I think the scammy empty 1613 01:51:47,077 --> 01:51:49,677 version shows up first because it's quicker to do. 1614 01:51:49,977 --> 01:51:53,437 It's quicker to make something that's worthless, this meaningless, that sounds like the thing 1615 01:51:53,437 --> 01:51:56,577 that's going to be worth something than it is to create something of actual consequence. 1616 01:51:56,997 --> 01:52:06,417 So I haven't tried to move my liquid coins yet, but I heard that everything is back up and running? 1617 01:52:06,417 --> 01:52:13,397 Yeah, one-to-one peg is back and all the most relevant peg out systems are operative. 1618 01:52:14,557 --> 01:52:24,757 So I am a very long-term block stream shill traditionally because of block size wars and because a friend with all the block stream people. 1619 01:52:24,757 --> 01:52:27,697 I don't like

the way it was managed and solved. 1620 01:52:28,577 --> 01:52:32,337 People don't even know officially who put the remaining 600. 1621 01:52:32,837 --> 01:52:38,017 I think that the way the bug was managed at the beginning was very bad. 1622 01:52:38,437 --> 01:52:41,897 The way they managed the negotiation with the hacker was very, very bad. 1623 01:52:42,277 --> 01:52:42,997 Very arrogant. 1624 01:52:43,437 --> 01:52:47,757 A lot of Ubers, no acknowledgement of the failure. 1625 01:52:48,197 --> 01:52:53,957 And I think the way they managed the transition to the restoration of the bag was also similarly bad. 1626 01:52:53,957 --> 01:52:59,017 and now the lack of transparency about who put the 600. 1627 01:52:59,017 --> 01:53:02,837 I think I know because I know people behind it. 1628 01:53:02,997 --> 01:53:06,697 So I know it's good people that actually saved the day 1629 01:53:06,697 --> 01:53:08,897 by putting their own private money. 1630 01:53:09,457 --> 01:53:13,077 But still, it was done in a very clumsy way, in my opinion. 1631 01:53:13,517 --> 01:53:18,137 To some degree, I think that I'm going to say something 1632 01:53:18,137 --> 01:53:19,157 on treasures here. 1633 01:53:19,157 --> 01:53:22,397 the situation of this summer 1634 01:53:22,397 --> 01:53:24,097 I think that 1635 01:53:24,097 --> 01:53:26,497 cold card improved more 1636 01:53:26,497 --> 01:53:28,217 than Liquid did because of the 1637 01:53:28,217 --> 01:53:29,297 results of the hack 1638 01:53:29,297 --> 01:53:31,677 so Liquid has been too lucky 1639 01:53:31,677 --> 01:53:33,857 like Liquid learned nothing 1640 01:53:33,857 --> 01:53:38,157 it's like what you say guy about 1641 01:53:38,157 --> 01:53:40,077 MTGOX and FTX 1642 01:53:40,077 --> 01:53:41,717 as opposed to bail out 1643 01:53:41,717 --> 01:53:44,457 after Lehman Brothers in big banks 1644 01:53:44,457 --> 01:53:46,297 if you don't feel the pain 1645 01:53:46,297 --> 01:53:47,637 out of mistakes 1646 01:53:47,637 --> 01:53:53,777 improvement is hard because the moral hazard keeps growing because you were lucky. 1647 01:53:54,237 --> 01:53:57,977 You don't face the consequences of something and you don't really improve. 1648 01:53:58,457 --> 01:54:04,557 So in some way, BTC preserve the entire hardware world industry with a lot of suffering, 1649 01:54:05,037 --> 01:54:09,097 which creating genuine improvement in many directions. 1650 01:54:09,097 --> 01:54:14,877 While this liquid situation, I am very skeptical that going forward, 1651 01:54:14,877 --> 01:54:17,477 that the security of liquid will be vastly improved 1652 01:54:17,477 --> 01:54:20,297 because there was basically no suffering to the users, 1653 01:54:20,557 --> 01:54:24,477 no suffering to the owners of the network 1654 01:54:24,477 --> 01:54:26,097 or the owners of the process. 1655 01:54:26,617 --> 01:54:31,037 So yeah, I will take some shit from my friends in Blockstream, 1656 01:54:31,137 --> 01:54:33,537 but I'm not happy with the final result. 1657 01:54:35,757 --> 01:54:36,557 That's interesting. 1658 01:54:36,677 --> 01:54:37,637 I haven't kept up with it well enough. 1659 01:54:37,637 --> 01:54:38,097 That's good to know. 1660 01:54:38,397 --> 01:54:41,457 But yeah, good to know it's back up and running, 1661 01:54:41,457 --> 01:54:45,597 but I have a hard time completely negating 1662 01:54:45,597 --> 01:54:49,677 or rejecting that take or that suggestion 1663 01:54:49,677 --> 01:54:53,857 that the lack of pain, it did not 1664 01:54:53,857 --> 01:54:58,197 in fact just allow business as usual 1665 01:54:58,197 --> 01:55:01,857 to some degree to walk forward even though it 1666 01:55:01,857 --> 01:55:05,457 produced pretty dangerous, pretty terrible results 1667 01:55:05,457 --> 01:55:08,357 but they got over the pain of it very quickly. 1668 01:55:08,357 --> 01:55:25,557 If the hacker of Liquid was happening one week before the hacker, the hack of Kolkard, and by the same person not giving back the 85% of the amount, now Liquid would be the villain just like Novak is. 1669 01:55:25,557 --> 01:55:30,597 Now, this is a little bit unfair because Novak is putting a lot of effort 1670 01:55:30,597 --> 01:55:34,737 in being the villain by the way that he managed after the hack as well. 1671 01:55:35,177 --> 01:55:43,637 But still, he has been somewhat unlucky to be the first symbol of evil. 1672 01:55:44,237 --> 01:55:48,797 And then I think Bloxima has been very lucky in being the latest 1673 01:55:48,797 --> 01:55:55,257 and the only one with a grey hat hacker giving back most of the amount. 1674 01:55:55,557 --> 01:56:01,037 It was something uncommon that you will receive back 85%. 1675 01:56:01,037 --> 01:56:02,937 Yeah. 1676 01:56:04,037 --> 01:56:11,397 I think it might be another example of like fiat propping up companies that should fail. 1677 01:56:12,077 --> 01:56:20,077 I mean, I'm just going to guess that this 600 Bitcoin was obtained by some kind of VC funding with a fiat loan. 1678 01:56:20,397 --> 01:56:25,037 And just yet another example of, you know, this thing should go away. 1679 01:56:25,037 --> 01:56:26,757 but it's not because of fiat. 1680 01:56:27,617 --> 01:56:28,517 Yeah, it's so easy. 1681 01:56:28,717 --> 01:56:30,937 VC culture has so much freaking money. 1682 01:56:32,117 --> 01:56:32,997 Yeah, exactly. 1683 01:56:33,437 --> 01:56:36,637 So if I'm right, and I cannot confirm or deny 1684 01:56:36,637 --> 01:56:38,497 because I don't have first-hand information, 1685 01:56:38,657 --> 01:56:40,757 but if my suspicion is right, 1686 01:56:40,897 --> 01:56:45,257 this is private wealth of a very generous Bitcoin whale, 1687 01:56:45,677 --> 01:56:48,817 which is a benefactor and a patron 1688 01:56:48,817 --> 01:56:50,817 of much of the Bitcoin industry. 1689 01:56:50,817 --> 01:56:53,477 and so it's not really 1690 01:56:53,477 --> 01:56:55,057 it's not really an exchange 1691 01:56:55,057 --> 01:56:56,037 for any equity 1692 01:56:56,037 -->

01:56:57,717 or any long term VC 1693 01:56:57,717 --> 01:56:59,337 but even charity 1694 01:56:59,337 --> 01:57:01,237 even super generous 1695 01:57:01,237 --> 01:57:02,317 and good faith charity 1696 01:57:02,317 --> 01:57:03,997 can be heavily distortive 1697 01:57:03,997 --> 01:57:05,757 at scale 1698 01:57:05,757 --> 01:57:08,337 so it's not necessarily better 1699 01:57:08,337 --> 01:57:10,517 yeah 1700 01:57:10,517 --> 01:57:13,177 well 1701 01:57:13,177 --> 01:57:14,617 I gotta run here in a little bit guys 1702 01:57:14,617 --> 01:57:15,877 I was about to say 1703 01:57:15,877 --> 01:57:17,217 it's probably a good time 1704 01:57:17,217 --> 01:57:18,057 to close it out 1705 01:57:18,057 --> 01:57:19,417 Giacomo 1706 01:57:19,417 --> 01:57:20,637 thanks for joining us man 1707 01:57:20,637 --> 01:57:21,637 It was good hanging out. 1708 01:57:21,637 --> 01:57:25,637 On this somber note, I think I depressed everybody with this. 1709 01:57:25,637 --> 01:57:28,637 I killed the mood of it. 1710 01:57:28,637 --> 01:57:41,895 Oh actually can I just mention one before Giacomo I think me and you are on the same page with a lot of the quantum stuff 1711 01:57:41,975 --> 01:57:47,195 Both have like a background in physics and stuff and just are just not impressed by it and think everyone's misled. 1712 01:57:47,535 --> 01:57:57,635 I have this conjecture that if there is a form of digital or a form of computing that outcompetes digital computing, it will be something other than quantum computing. 1713 01:57:57,635 --> 01:58:04,595 like if you give me the field of all forms of innovations in computing versus quantum i'll 1714 01:58:04,595 --> 01:58:11,175 i'll take the field would you do that too absolutely yes one obvious case will be a 1715 01:58:11,175 --> 01:58:17,095 resurrection of analog analog computers with to some degree they also connected to quantum but 1716 01:58:17,095 --> 01:58:23,775 they are classical analog computers they are very bad in terms of reproducibility and initial 1717 01:58:23,775 --> 01:58:26,855 creation of the initial boundaries. 1718 01:58:27,615 --> 01:58:29,755 But for some specific tasks, 1719 01:58:30,255 --> 01:58:32,355 they can be extremely efficient 1720 01:58:32,355 --> 01:58:33,595 compared to digital computing. 1721 01:58:33,755 --> 01:58:36,215 Digital computers are super easy to reproduce 1722 01:58:36,215 --> 01:58:38,715 and they're good in error correction, 1723 01:58:38,715 --> 01:58:41,815 but they are inefficient to do something analog 1724 01:58:41,815 --> 01:58:45,155 like you can do with Ohm's law for multiplication. 1725 01:58:45,895 --> 01:58:49,215 So now I don't think it's reasonable 1726 01:58:49,215 --> 01:58:52,935 to expect analog computing having a comeback, 1727 01:58:52,935 --> 01:58:57,055 especially in the field of LLMs and generative AI, 1728 01:58:57,335 --> 01:59:02,935 because it's a field where you don't need error correction as much as efficiency. 1729 01:59:02,935 --> 01:59:04,055 It doesn't need to be perfect. 1730 01:59:04,335 --> 01:59:04,475 Yeah. 1731 01:59:04,675 --> 01:59:05,095 Exactly. 1732 01:59:05,335 --> 01:59:05,475 Yeah. 1733 01:59:05,495 --> 01:59:05,815 Exactly. 1734 01:59:06,135 --> 01:59:07,975 So I think that that's an example. 1735 01:59:08,395 --> 01:59:13,815 Another example could be even more exotic stuff coming from science fiction physics. 1736 01:59:13,815 --> 01:59:26,875 But I think that most people trained in theoretical physics know that there is a level, a threshold where you cannot pack any more information into physical space. 1737 01:59:27,195 --> 01:59:29,855 The most obvious being a Planck volume. 1738 01:59:30,335 --> 01:59:32,475 So there is a threshold there somewhere. 1739 01:59:33,115 --> 01:59:41,035 Where the threshold is, and if it prevents cryptography-relevant quantum computers, I think most theoretical physicists would agree with us. 1740 01:59:41,035 --> 01:59:42,095 Where the threshold is. 1741 01:59:42,495 --> 01:59:43,015 Yeah. 1742 01:59:43,015 --> 01:59:50,455 I think that it's very unlikely that we can ever get to 1,000 logical qubits. 1743 01:59:50,695 --> 01:59:51,955 So I completely agree with Steve. 1744 01:59:55,035 --> 01:59:55,995 It's so sad. 1745 01:59:56,155 --> 01:59:58,115 It's going to be like climate change, man. 1746 01:59:58,315 --> 02:00:01,075 This threat in the FUD is just going to persist. 1747 02:00:01,075 --> 02:00:04,015 Go on for 20 years until people just stop caring. 1748 02:00:04,275 --> 02:00:07,555 Well, because it's invisible and no one can reproduce it 1749 02:00:07,555 --> 02:00:11,575 and no one can ever verify it and all they'll ever have is news stories. 1750 02:00:11,575 --> 02:00:16,735 So there'll be no way that this stupid stuff is going to go away. 1751 02:00:18,255 --> 02:00:20,855 Well, by the time it does, they'll have created another one. 1752 02:00:21,515 --> 02:00:25,835 It will when they have room to move to another one. 1753 02:00:26,175 --> 02:00:29,615 When the next one is ready to go and it's going to be meaningful, 1754 02:00:30,115 --> 02:00:31,675 that's when they shift away. 1755 02:00:35,175 --> 02:00:38,515 I'm not 100% convinced that it's nothing, 1756 02:00:38,715 --> 02:00:40,255 but I'm also not worried about it. 1757 02:00:40,255 --> 02:00:43,415 But also because we have solutions. 1758 02:00:43,895 --> 02:00:51,435 Even if I try to shut down my theoretical physicist mind 1759 02:00:51,435 --> 02:00:55,175 and I will just accept that you can pack infinite information 1760 02:00:55,175 --> 02:00:59,095 in Hilbert states, which we know is not possible, 1761 02:00:59,195 --> 02:01:03,715 but even assuming that and even assuming the engineering challenges 1762 02:01:03,715 --> 02:01:09,335 of keeping millions of physical qubits without interference 1763 02:01:09,335 --> 02:01:10,975 and without the coherence. 1764 02:01:11,455 --> 02:01:14,375 Even then, what you have to do in Bitcoin is pretty

trivial. 1765 02:01:15,155 --> 02:01:18,115 There are attack at rest, which are the easiest one 1766 02:01:18,115 --> 02:01:19,255 because you have a lot of time. 1767 02:01:19,575 --> 02:01:22,415 You just need a hash, which just means that we have to go back 1768 02:01:22,415 --> 02:01:25,195 to P2SH, P2W. 1769 02:01:25,675 --> 02:01:28,035 We just go back to the pre-Taproot. 1770 02:01:28,235 --> 02:01:30,435 Or if we really, really want to do it, 1771 02:01:30,435 --> 02:01:35,335 we go to upgrade Taproot with an hash with BAP360. 1772 02:01:35,635 --> 02:01:36,755 It's not a tragedy. 1773 02:01:36,755 --> 02:01:40,815 it's probably good in general to have a hash in front of the public key. 1774 02:01:41,675 --> 02:01:45,075 People did the public key because it saves a few bytes, 1775 02:01:45,735 --> 02:01:47,575 but it's okay to have a hash. 1776 02:01:48,035 --> 02:01:50,355 And if we want to protect from attack on flights, 1777 02:01:50,775 --> 02:01:53,255 the only thing we have to do is to slow down transactions. 1778 02:01:53,495 --> 02:01:57,735 There are already many, many ways without any soft fork to do that, 1779 02:01:58,035 --> 02:02:00,875 including multi-seal thresholds with lock time, 1780 02:02:01,035 --> 02:02:04,535 including the fake proof of work with the key length grinding. 1781 02:02:04,535 --> 02:02:09,295 There are so many ways to fix it that is not even funny. 1782 02:02:10,075 --> 02:02:11,815 So I don't know, maybe. 1783 02:02:12,475 --> 02:02:15,955 So I think that if we want to change taproot anyway 1784 02:02:15,955 --> 02:02:18,455 because we want to go to the next V2, 1785 02:02:19,095 --> 02:02:24,095 then maybe we can just put a hash on top of it just because. 1786 02:02:24,675 --> 02:02:27,655 But it's probably an overkill. 1787 02:02:27,935 --> 02:02:30,455 The good thing is that we can weaponize these 1788 02:02:30,455 --> 02:02:33,315 to stigmatize address reuse. 1789 02:02:33,315 --> 02:02:47,035 So what I think I'm trying to do, I want to write to exchanges and suggest to my clients to write to exchanges that by enforcing address reuse, they're being quantum raped. 1790 02:02:48,395 --> 02:02:51,115 Yeah, so stop quantum raping me. 1791 02:02:51,375 --> 02:02:52,615 Don't do address reuse. 1792 02:02:53,135 --> 02:02:55,615 We don't have to go back to pre-Taproot. 1793 02:02:55,795 --> 02:03:00,555 I mean, 90% of financial transactions on Bitcoin are P2SH anyway. 1794 02:03:00,555 --> 02:03:05,095 I mean, Taproot is 90% inscriptions. 1795 02:03:06,335 --> 02:03:11,715 So I use Taproot because it's pretty efficient for the manuscript. 1796 02:03:12,575 --> 02:03:15,675 I do decreasing threshold. 1797 02:03:15,855 --> 02:03:16,355 You're the one? 1798 02:03:17,215 --> 02:03:17,535 Yeah. 1799 02:03:18,355 --> 02:03:19,835 He's the 1%. 1800 02:03:19,835 --> 02:03:22,595 My anonymity set is basically zero. 1801 02:03:26,955 --> 02:03:28,475 I've been watching you. 1802 02:03:28,595 --> 02:03:29,995 I was

wondering who that was. 1803 02:03:29,995 --> 02:03:30,675 I was just 1804 02:03:30,675 --> 02:03:32,235 Steve posts 1805 02:03:32,235 --> 02:03:34,035 his blockchain analysis 1806 02:03:34,035 --> 02:03:35,695 it's like it's all runes 1807 02:03:35,695 --> 02:03:37,255 except for this one guy 1808 02:03:37,255 --> 02:03:38,435 and I'm pretty sure 1809 02:03:38,435 --> 02:03:39,695 this is attached to it 1810 02:03:39,695 --> 02:03:40,775 there is 1811 02:03:40,775 --> 02:03:41,475 there is three of us 1812 02:03:41,475 --> 02:03:42,815 you talk about it all the time 1813 02:03:42,815 --> 02:03:43,095 there is 1814 02:03:43,095 --> 02:03:44,195 there is me 1815 02:03:44,195 --> 02:03:45,315 there is another 1816 02:03:45,315 --> 02:03:46,295 Liano user 1817 02:03:46,295 --> 02:03:47,595 there is a guy doing 1818 02:03:47,595 --> 02:03:48,855 single seek with Taproot 1819 02:03:48,855 --> 02:03:49,935 and there is a guy 1820 02:03:49,935 --> 02:03:51,075 doing Taproot channels 1821 02:03:51,075 --> 02:03:52,275 so it's four of us 1822 02:03:52,275 --> 02:03:53,395 so you can never say 1823 02:03:53,395 --> 02:03:53,995 which one is me 1824 02:03:53,995 --> 02:03:54,495 okay four of us 1825 02:03:54,495 --> 02:03:56,015 you have no idea 1826 02:03:56,015 --> 02:03:57,815 I'm okay with 1827 02:03:57,815 --> 02:03:58,735 pay to key 1828 02:03:58,735 --> 02:03:59,875 or you know 1829 02:03:59,875 --> 02:04:02,215 that's the script path spending. 1830 02:04:02,375 --> 02:04:03,735 The key path spending on Taproot 1831 02:04:03,735 --> 02:04:04,975 is pretty cool. 1832 02:04:05,055 --> 02:04:06,095 And I think there are a lot of 1833 02:04:06,095 --> 02:04:08,015 legit financial transactions 1834 02:04:08,015 --> 02:04:09,615 and key path spending on Taproot, 1835 02:04:09,715 --> 02:04:11,875 just not the TapScript stuff. 1836 02:04:12,135 --> 02:04:13,635 The thing that you did, Steve, 1837 02:04:13,755 --> 02:04:23,933 that blew my mind that I was like oh my God that so it so duh And then you would have to have some sort of an implementation Like it would have to be a standard 1838 02:04:24,053 --> 02:04:25,973 I think this should be considered like address reuse 1839 02:04:25,973 --> 02:04:28,893 when it comes to Taproot of putting in a fake branch. 1840 02:04:30,153 --> 02:04:32,553 Because the thing that you had pointed out 1841 02:04:32,553 --> 02:04:34,853 was that everybody is using Taproot 1842 02:04:34,853 --> 02:04:36,953 with this idea that it confuses 1843 02:04:36,953 --> 02:04:38,953 what branch they're using 1844 02:04:38,953 --> 02:04:40,633 and they have no idea what's in the thing. 1845 02:04:41,093 --> 02:04:42,813 But there's a hash of the one branch 1846 02:04:42,813 --> 02:04:46,053 that they're using is the hash of the whole script. 1847 02:04:46,173 --> 02:04:48,073 And it's like, there's nothing else there. 1848 02:04:48,513 --> 02:04:49,813 It doesn't mean anything if you... 1849 02:04:50,533 --> 02:04:51,813 It's like 96%. 1850 02:04:52,373 --> 02:04:54,273 Yeah, you have to write a dead branch 1851 02:04:54,273 --> 02:04:55,813 that doesn't do anything and you'll never use. 1852 02:04:56,613 --> 02:04:58,613 Yeah, it's like privacy. 1853 02:04:59,053 --> 02:05:00,913 It's like, well, you just... 1854 02:05:00,913 --> 02:05:01,693 I mean, you can check the hash. 1855 02:05:01,753 --> 02:05:02,493 You have no privacy. 1856 02:05:03,213 --> 02:05:04,633 Like, you even know exactly 1857 02:05:04,633 --> 02:05:06,053 what your transactions look like. 1858 02:05:06,393 --> 02:05:07,553 They don't want privacy. 1859 02:05:07,753 --> 02:05:09,473 They want it to be inscripted. 1860 02:05:09,533 --> 02:05:10,453 They want it to be published. 1861 02:05:10,453 --> 02:05:12,173 That was the major use of Taproot, 1862 02:05:12,173 --> 02:05:13,393 was to reveal your transaction. 1863 02:05:13,393 --> 02:05:14,053 It was the opposite. 1864 02:05:14,273 --> 02:05:14,853 It was the opposite. 1865 02:05:14,853 --> 02:05:17,033 It was the opposite of what it was advertised for. 1866 02:05:17,533 --> 02:05:18,253 That's funny. 1867 02:05:18,873 --> 02:05:19,313 Oh, man. 1868 02:05:19,433 --> 02:05:20,873 Yeah, we messed up a little bit. 1869 02:05:20,993 --> 02:05:22,773 I still love Taproot as a design, 1870 02:05:22,973 --> 02:05:25,933 but I think that we could have done better with it. 1871 02:05:26,813 --> 02:05:29,033 I think it's also just that we didn't need it. 1872 02:05:29,433 --> 02:05:30,613 I love the keyspin. 1873 02:05:31,813 --> 02:05:33,033 Yeah, keyspin is dope. 1874 02:05:33,633 --> 02:05:34,333 Keyspin is awesome. 1875 02:05:34,533 --> 02:05:36,533 Efficient multi-sig VA keyspin, awesome. 1876 02:05:37,013 --> 02:05:38,953 Yeah, and Frost, what you can do with Frost, 1877 02:05:39,113 --> 02:05:39,613 what you can do. 1878 02:05:39,613 --> 02:05:44,253 And without Tupperware, we could not have ARC in a reasonable way. 1879 02:05:44,793 --> 02:05:49,033 So Frost, Schnorr aggregation is very, very cool. 1880 02:05:49,833 --> 02:05:50,493 Schnorr's awesome. 1881 02:05:50,913 --> 02:05:51,073 Yeah. 1882 02:05:51,293 --> 02:05:55,953 And eventually, I think that even partial mercilization of the script path, 1883 02:05:56,473 --> 02:05:57,933 eventually it will be useful. 1884 02:05:58,613 --> 02:06:03,113 For example, right now, I can easily do a very, very complex multi-seal 1885 02:06:03,113 --> 02:06:05,053 that I could not do with P2SH. 1886 02:06:05,053 --> 02:06:13,373 It's just that the design was probably over, the nerd sniping of the design was a little bit excessive. 1887 02:06:13,893 --> 02:06:20,213 We were after the block size war victory and the core developers, they were like divinities 1888 02:06:20,213 --> 02:06:27,033 and they started to get nerd sniped a little bit on byte optimization and like the control block. 1889 02:06:27,033 --> 02:06:35,693 The entire construction is a little bit probably over-engineerized or something like that. 1890

02:06:38,213 --> 02:06:46,333 No, that makes sense too, is that there was a sense of cohesion and direction after the block size wars. 1891 02:06:46,933 --> 02:06:52,833 And we overcorrected and got to like, oh, we're definitely right about all our decisions. 1892 02:06:52,833 --> 02:06:57,033 and the pushback fell away, you know, 1893 02:06:57,053 --> 02:06:58,873 because most of the pushback forked off. 1894 02:06:59,713 --> 02:07:01,533 And, you know, in the same sense, 1895 02:07:01,653 --> 02:07:02,993 BIP110 was a similar thing. 1896 02:07:03,053 --> 02:07:05,513 There was a lot of pushback and then BIP110 forked off. 1897 02:07:05,833 --> 02:07:07,933 And so a lot of that pushback disappeared, 1898 02:07:08,093 --> 02:07:09,453 but luckily not a whole lot was happening. 1899 02:07:10,173 --> 02:07:15,033 And so nothing has really changed in the term since then. 1900 02:07:15,373 --> 02:07:17,493 But had we been in the bulk of like, 1901 02:07:17,693 --> 02:07:19,113 oh, we're going to fork and we're going to do all these things. 1902 02:07:19,153 --> 02:07:20,893 We're going to implement these things like we were in the block size 1903 02:07:20,893 --> 02:07:23,133 where it's like, well, then a whole bunch of things just kind of get ushered in 1904 02:07:23,133 --> 02:07:27,313 because the winners are socially on the same page. 1905 02:07:28,613 --> 02:07:29,893 So, yeah. 1906 02:07:30,853 --> 02:07:32,993 Anyway, we should close this out. 1907 02:07:33,713 --> 02:07:35,193 We tried to do that 20 minutes ago. 1908 02:07:35,733 --> 02:07:36,493 Thank you, guys. 1909 02:07:36,713 --> 02:07:37,693 That was my fault. Sorry. 1910 02:07:38,893 --> 02:07:39,513 No, it was great. 1911 02:07:39,633 --> 02:07:39,993 It was great. 1912 02:07:40,053 --> 02:07:41,013 It was good to see you, Giacomo. 1913 02:07:41,333 --> 02:07:43,013 It was really a pleasure. 1914 02:07:43,253 --> 02:07:44,573 Great conversation. Thank you, guys. 1915 02:07:44,813 --> 02:07:47,053 You're never invited to the roundtable again, 1916 02:07:47,713 --> 02:07:50,553 but I'm going to send you an email saying we had a great time. 1917 02:07:50,893 --> 02:07:52,233 And that you are welcome anytime. 1918 02:07:52,353 --> 02:07:53,133 And we should do this again. 1919 02:07:53,933 --> 02:07:56,093 But just so you know, that's just me being polite. 1920 02:07:56,893 --> 02:07:59,833 And we'll talk later. 1921 02:08:00,553 --> 02:08:00,913 Legit. 1922 02:08:01,253 --> 02:08:01,633 All right. 1923 02:08:01,713 --> 02:08:02,073 See you guys. 1924 02:08:02,133 --> 02:08:02,313 All right. 1925 02:08:02,433 --> 02:08:02,853 I'm good. 1926 02:08:03,053 --> 02:08:03,513 Later, guys. 1927 02:08:08,213 --> 02:08:09,073 All right, guys. 1928 02:08:09,473 --> 02:08:10,993 I hope you enjoyed that episode. 1929 02:08:11,253 --> 02:08:12,853 I've got so much stuff in wings. 1930 02:08:13,293 --> 02:08:16,373 Like getting so close to the edge. 1931 02:08:16,373 --> 02:08:24,613 just so you know,

Pear Drop has its first version out into beta testers in the Play Store. 1932 02:08:24,873 --> 02:08:29,773 I'm still trying to figure out keys and like API connections to the App Store so I can kind of 1933 02:08:29,773 --> 02:08:34,073 automate this going forward as we get to the place where we're pushing a lot of different 1934 02:08:34,073 --> 02:08:40,153 parts of these tools and the stack that we've been working on out and making them available to people. 1935 02:08:40,153 --> 02:08:49,273 uh and so pair drop pair drive is getting much much closer to something real and concrete in 1936 02:08:49,273 --> 02:08:55,553 fact i'm gonna have my wife and a good friend of mine using it for the purpose of transferring 1937 02:08:55,553 --> 02:09:01,093 stuff like for the reason that you would use the app like not because i mean yeah we're testing but 1938 02:09:01,093 --> 02:09:05,833 i just think it's actually going to be the best way to accomplish a few things that we're working 1939 02:09:05,833 --> 02:09:13,693 on. So that's super exciting to start to really feel this in genuine action with people who 1940 02:09:13,693 --> 02:09:19,953 literally just need it because it's a very useful tool. And yeah, so tons going on under there. 1941 02:09:20,253 --> 02:09:26,973 Be sure to follow. Don't forget to check out the Guys Take YouTube channel. It's literally G-U-Y-S-T-A-K-E. 1942 02:09:26,973 --> 02:09:35,953 still very small but we have been putting a lot of work into these videos and i i really just love 1943 02:09:35,953 --> 02:09:41,853 the format i love doing the content this way i think we've stumbled onto something that really 1944 02:09:41,853 --> 02:09:47,313 is kind of fitting the the middle ground of all the stuff that we're working on so uh happy with 1945 02:09:47,313 --> 02:09:53,553 it and more reads to come i know i've been lax on those but that's mostly been about production 1946 02:09:53,553 --> 02:09:55,233 and workflow and all of those things. 1947 02:09:55,773 --> 02:09:58,093 Shout out to Giacomo for joining us today. 1948 02:09:58,173 --> 02:10:00,833 We had so many things to cover 1949 02:10:00,833 --> 02:10:03,233 and Giacomo always has a really fun 1950 02:10:03,233 --> 02:10:05,013 and interesting opinion. 1951 02:10:05,153 --> 02:10:06,133 Mad respect for him 1952 02:10:06,133 --> 02:10:08,213 and always a hell of a good time. 1953 02:10:08,633 --> 02:10:09,953 So don't forget to follow Giacomo, 1954 02:10:10,593 --> 02:10:12,813 Steve, Simple Steve, 1955 02:10:13,233 --> 02:10:14,633 and my brother AgorisView 1956 02:10:14,633 --> 02:10:17,013 on all the socials. 1957 02:10:17,173 --> 02:10:18,293 Follow the YouTubes. 1958 02:10:18,373 --> 02:10:19,493 Get yourself a bit box. 1959 02:10:19,573 --> 02:10:21,333 Make sure to use our affiliate links. 1960 02:10:21,893 --> 02:10:22,893 It helps us out. 1961 02:10:22,893 --> 02:10:26,193 and, you know, helps you out, gets you a discount. 1962 02:10:26,773 --> 02:10:28,173 So stay tuned. 1963 02:10:28,813 --> 02:10:32,273 I'll catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. 1964 02:10:32,633 --> 02:10:36,093 Until then, everybody, that is our two sets. 1965 02:10:52,893 --> 02:10:53,393 you