WEBVTT
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This is Stonewritten. I'm your host, Dr. Ron. Hello.
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I'm really just super excited. So I want to tell the audience a little bit about who you are.
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So I've done a little bit of internet sleuthing, just a little bit.
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And you tell me if any of this bio that I kind of pulled from multiple places
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is incorrect, but you grew up here in North Carolina.
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My memory is that your roots are in Asheville. Is that right?
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That's correct. So you came to Carolina for your JD, not for undergrad,
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but you came to pursue the law and then you did something very different.
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So I'll get there in a second. But you're from North Carolina. You're from Asheville.
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I feel like my memory of that time, which I didn't look this up,
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but was it civil rights and constitutional law? Yes.
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That was a really fascinating part of our thread. I know that you've been in
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the tech world for a little bit and then you've been freelancing.
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You've been writing for places like Vanity Fair and the New York Times and even
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something I remember it because it was just so like an outlier in terms of places.
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And I was like, Architectural Digest?
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I was like, I've written for all these places. So you're a professional writer.
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I think you would probably say by trade, but I would say that you're a professional
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storyteller and you love to travel because I stalk you voluntarily.
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It's not really stalked because you let me follow you on Instagram.
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So I know that you love to travel and you travel as much as you can.
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Some of that is because you're writing and you're traveling to write or maybe
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you're writing to travel.
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I don't know. But the point is that you're doing all these things.
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But I was so struck because of how you talked about growing up with your grandparents.
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So you were raised by your grandparents who had these expectations and you were like.
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I have something else that I feel called to do. So that's part of why I wanted you to come.
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So Jaha and I met because I was invited as a faculty member to attend a dinner with alumni.
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And I think the Alumni Association puts this on and they invite people to come.
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And I think once they get nine or ten people with faculty and we just sit down
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This is Stonewritten. I'm your host, Dr. Ron. Hello.
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I'm really just super excited. So I want to tell the audience a little bit about who you are.
00:00:15.217 --> 00:00:18.697
So I've done a little bit of internet sleuthing, just a little bit.
00:00:18.837 --> 00:00:22.277
And you tell me if any of this bio that I kind of pulled from multiple places
00:00:22.277 --> 00:00:26.597
is incorrect, but you grew up here in North Carolina.
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My memory is that your roots are in Asheville. Is that right?
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That's correct. So you came to Carolina for your JD, not for undergrad,
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but you came to pursue the law and then you did something very different.
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So I'll get there in a second. But you're from North Carolina. You're from Asheville.
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I feel like my memory of that time, which I didn't look this up,
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but was it civil rights and constitutional law? Yes.
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That was a really fascinating part of our thread. I know that you've been in
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the tech world for a little bit and then you've been freelancing.
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You've been writing for places like Vanity Fair and the New York Times and even
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something I remember it because it was just so like an outlier in terms of places.
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And I was like, Architectural Digest?
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I was like, I've written for all these places. So you're a professional writer.
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I think you would probably say by trade, but I would say that you're a professional
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storyteller and you love to travel because I stalk you voluntarily.
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It's not really stalked because you let me follow you on Instagram.
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So I know that you love to travel and you travel as much as you can.
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Some of that is because you're writing and you're traveling to write or maybe
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you're writing to travel.
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I don't know. But the point is that you're doing all these things.
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But I was so struck because of how you talked about growing up with your grandparents.
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So you were raised by your grandparents who had these expectations and you were like.
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I have something else that I feel called to do. So that's part of why I wanted you to come.
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So Jaha and I met because I was invited as a faculty member to attend a dinner with alumni.
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And I think the Alumni Association puts this on and they invite people to come.
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And I think once they get nine or ten people with faculty and we just sit down
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at a table and have dinner, we just break bread and parlay. Yes.
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And it was just incredible because the conversations that evening,
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you know, of course, you kind of led the conversation or started out by leading the conversation.
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But then everyone kind of contributed based off of their own background and their own experiences.
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And so it was a great conversation, great company.
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And the food was actually pretty good. The food was good.
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They invited me literally under the pretext of, hey, just come and talk as a faculty member.
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Talk about your work and how you came to Carolina.
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And I told that story about being recruited to come to Carolina to lead the
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Stone Center. And our conversation was really good that night,
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and we have just stayed in touch.
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And I knew from that conversation, because the way you talked about your background
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and the way we talked about the unexpected moves that happened to Carolina alum,
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that was really the turning point in our conversation.
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And when you started telling your story, Jahat, I mean, it was really profound and.
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You talked about who you are.
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So let me just say, in addition to doing the freelance work that you've done,
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you've published at least two books.
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Those Who Saw the Sun, African-American Oral Histories from the Jim Crow South,
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which in this moment has more relevance than you probably ever wanted it to have.
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Right. We want our books to be relevant, but we don't want them to be relevant
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because history is repeating itself. But then you also have a picture book called
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I Heard, An American Journey.
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Is that technically billed as a children's book? Is it a young adult book or
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no? Tell me how they billed that.
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So it is in the category of a picture book, but I like to call it more of an
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illustrated poem because it is written in rhyme.
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It spans over 400 years of African-American history in rhyme,
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and it was initially written as a poem.
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So I call it an illustrated poem. Yeah, an illustrated poem. I love that. I love that.
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So, I mean, not that you have to categorize yourself, but how do you describe
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yourself? I think of you, again, as a.
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--> 00:04:42.583
Professional storyteller. You tell stories and you figure out how to get those stories out.
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When people say, oh, what do you do for a living? What do you say?
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I do tell people that I am a storyteller or I will tell them that I'm a griot
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because that's really the foundation of all of my work.
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And so part of being a griot, of course, storytelling is a big part of that.
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But research is also a big part of being a griot because someone has to tell
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you what you then contextualize and share with others.
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That's what I tell people. And then I go a little more into it and let them
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know, hey, I'm a journalist. I am an author.
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Most recently, I am a harpist. Yeah, I saw that too, that you picked up the
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harp. And I was like, why the harp?
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I saw a Black woman on Instagram playing the harp.
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Yeah. And I thought to myself, So I don't think I've ever seen a black woman playing the harp.
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So I DMed her and I said, can you teach me how to play the harp?
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Wow. This was in the middle of the pandemic, of course. So I faced so many challenges
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because, of course, you can't just go out and buy a harp. It's a big instrument.
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Like, what kind of vehicle are you putting this harp in? What kind of vehicle?
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You know, the barrier of entry to begin playing the harp is very, very high.
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But I am in the very beginning phases of learning how to play a traditional
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West African harp, kora, and that has been a completely different experience with the instrument.
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And so both of them have been very fulfilling to me.
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Oh, my God. Okay. So many things.
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So listeners, now you know why I'm talking to Jahan because all of these wonderfully rich and dynamic,
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pieces of who you are. I strive to live my life so that I don't have to piecemeal myself together.
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And I want to create environments for people to be able to be their whole and full selves.
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And so here you are, you're like, no, I'm a storyteller. I'm a griot.
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I'm learning the harp, but I'm also going to the quora, right?
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I write. I'm a journalist, but I'm also a researcher.
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Unapologetically North Carolinian, Southern born and bred.
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Yeah. I'm a member of the Afro-Southern diaspora.
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And that is a very specific culture that we should be very proud of. I'm very proud of it.
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You know, I'm not going to let anybody make me, you know, people have such a
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proclivity to look down on Southerners.
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And I think it's ridiculous because Southern culture, though foundational,
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remains relevant, remains influential, especially Afro-Southern culture.
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So, yeah, I tell people I'm a proud Southerner.
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Did you always know that you were going to be a lawyer or wanted to go to law school?
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Would you say you've been delivered from the law? What would you say about this
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law degree that you have that you got from Carolina? What would you say about
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how the, I mean, yeah, how going to become a lawyer has shifted?
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Where does being a lawyer fit into who it is that you are and how you see yourself?
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Let me just say this. I always wanted to be a writer. When I was a kid, wanted to be a writer.
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I always wrote poetry, short stories and everything.
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My family, church, community, everybody was so supportive and encouraging of my writing.
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My grandparents told me, you can't make money as a writer. You don't go to law
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school. You're going to med school. You're going to grad school, something.
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You're going to be a doctor. Something. Lawyer or engineer.
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Throughout the Black diaspora, it's one of these three things that people are
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like, this is the tell of success. I would even say teachers.
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I had a lot of educators in my family. My grandmother was an old school educator.
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So, you know, that was always an option, too.
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I'm not faulting my grandparents or, you know, to me, especially then,
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it was a different world.
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Technology has really removed some of the barriers that previously existed in
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publishing and journalism.
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And I'm not saying that they're completely eradicated, of course,
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but we have access to more people and information than we did even when I was a little kid.
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And so they gave me information based on what they felt I would be able to do
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successfully to be able to have a beautiful life.
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And so I do appreciate them for pushing me in that direction.
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A lot of people have never heard anyone say that before, but I loved law school.
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And the reason that I felt that going to law school was the right choice for me,
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because I've always been interested in how
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can I use my skills and my talents to bring back to my community and create
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spaces for us to become empowered and to become educated and use my skills again to build my community.
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Law school was an amazing experience for me because I was able to learn from
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so many brilliant legal minds.
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I will say Carolina Law has excellent faculty members.
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And I was just, it was an incredible intellectual environment.
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And so when I graduated law school, of course, took the bar and,
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I felt like, OK, I have a law degree. I can I can work in the legal profession.
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Let me just check it out and see how it is. And I lasted for about a month and a half.
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Damn. I don't have the type of personality that does well in the legal profession.
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Even though you're even though you're a type A personality, what do you mean?
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What I mean by that is I'm a person that I need to see impact now.
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I can't work 50 years and see a little bit of impact from that last 50 years.
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I need to be able to do work that I can see and I can feel and the impact is there.
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And that is what really keeps me motivated.
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Well, part of what keeps me motivated in my professional career.
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And I'm like, I just cannot toil away, especially in civil rights law.
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You have to be willing to toil away your entire professional career and,
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You may only see a little bit of progress, but you know you're building something
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for that next generation to then stand upon, that next generation to stand upon.
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But you may not yourself see the impact of your work.
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I don't have the type of personality where I can continue to do that and not
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see the impact of my work.
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And so I thought to myself, you know, where am I going to be able to see that impact?
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So me going into startups was really more me thinking, how can I use this expensive
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law degree that I now have, but also be able to combine that with innovation,
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impact, me doing something that I can see the impact of.
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And that's how I ended up in startups.
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My first job out of law school was at Uber.
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That's an important caveat. Yes.
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When I started at Uber, nobody knew what Uber was. I was part of the team that
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brought Uber to the Southeast U.S.
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And it's funny to think that there was a time where you could mention Uber and
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literally no one knew what it was.
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I remember telling my family, yeah, I got this new job and everything.
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And they were like, okay, so you're basically going to put strangers in the
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car with other strangers and that's your job.
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I'm pretty sure they thought I was completely unemployed and just lying about this new opportunity.
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So I started there. It was exciting.
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It was wonderful at first, but Uber didn't necessarily scale with a lot of integrity.
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And so I ended up leaving Uber.
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And that was a huge lesson for me because I realized that I cannot stay at a
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company that is engaging in behaviors that doesn't match my ideals.
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So I walked away from Uber and trust me, that was a lot of money to be walking away from.
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Wait, so wait, hold on now. There's a step in there because what you said is
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just so profound, like staying at a place that doesn't represent what it is that you believe in,
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right? I work at UNC Chapel Hill.
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Fundamentally, I believe in that mission, but you're leaving money on the table,
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lots of money, lots of resource.
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Where did you get the courage? How did you know that you would be okay?
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Or did you not know and you just took a leap of faith?
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I knew that I was being asked to do things that did not align with my core beliefs.
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And you said something very important.
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You believe in the mission. At that point, I no longer believed in the mission.
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And so I just said, I can't in all good conscience know who I am as a person,
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face myself as a person. And so I left.
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Is that when you started freelancing? So at this point, I was snatched up pretty
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quickly to come and help build a nonprofit rideshare, which was the first one in the country.
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And so I worked there for four years.
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And then what happened was I got laid off at the very start of the pandemic.
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And so I got laid off. Did you have a nest egg or did you know it was coming?
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Could you feel it? I'm all in your pockets. I'm not pocket watching.
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I'm really just asking because I know that people listening are going to be
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like, hold on, wait, how do I make this choice?
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Because I know that there are people who are sitting in a job that they despise,
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are sitting in spaces that they feel rub against what it is they believe in
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their heart of hearts and their soul of souls.
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I know that they're going to want to know. And let me speak to that a little
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bit more, too, because I want to say that the decision to leave Uber wasn't
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an overnight decision or a quick decision.
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When things started going in a direction that I did not.
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Light. I spent months proposing and working on programs that I felt could kind
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of help tip the balance back in another way.
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Now, I don't believe in the gig economy. And I feel kind of ashamed of even
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having been a part of, you know,
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building one of the biggest companies in the gig economy that ushered in the
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gig economy. I don't believe in that now.
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And I did try to affect positive change from the inside.
00:15:16.875 --> 00:15:21.115
Some of those things were accepted. Some of them were not. And I do feel that
00:15:21.115 --> 00:15:29.015
there's something to be said for being in a space and doing what you can to improve that space,
00:15:29.015 --> 00:15:32.815
especially if you can't leave. You know, leaving is not always an option.
00:15:33.375 --> 00:15:36.975
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Literally at the very start of the pandemic, because, of course,
00:16:14.175 --> 00:16:19.575
operations were completely shut down because you didn't know how close you could be to someone.
00:16:19.755 --> 00:16:23.255
No one wanted to be in the car with anybody. Everyone was at home and we were in lockdown.
00:16:23.515 --> 00:16:27.515
So our whole entire product, it was made irrelevant overnight.
00:16:28.115 --> 00:16:34.355
So I was laid off. But that ended up being a really good thing for me in general,
00:16:34.355 --> 00:16:37.195
because we were getting the $600.
00:16:38.175 --> 00:16:43.155
Supplement at that time, the federal supplement. And so I told myself, Jahaf,
00:16:43.917 --> 00:16:47.057
It's now or never. You need to sit down.
00:16:47.437 --> 00:16:53.177
Because I had had things to write about for years, but I just never had the time.
00:16:53.317 --> 00:16:56.477
You know, working in a startup, it's just so hectic. You're always,
00:16:56.757 --> 00:16:59.937
it's a grind. It is a constant grind.
00:17:00.317 --> 00:17:04.297
And I said, I'm at home. We're in lockdowns.
00:17:04.717 --> 00:17:09.157
I don't have to worry about money right now because I'm getting unemployment.
00:17:09.157 --> 00:17:10.957
I'm getting, you know, supplement.
00:17:11.377 --> 00:17:15.557
I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write out everything that I have had
00:17:15.557 --> 00:17:18.217
on my heart to write over all of these years.
00:17:18.337 --> 00:17:23.957
I am going to learn how to get published in some of these publications.
00:17:24.577 --> 00:17:29.477
I am going to learn how to craft letters to editors, pitches.
00:17:29.917 --> 00:17:36.497
I literally used probably about a six-month period of time to just sit there,
00:17:36.737 --> 00:17:41.157
write, craft proposals and query letters and pitches and everything.
00:17:41.157 --> 00:17:44.037
And I just figured it out.
00:17:44.417 --> 00:17:49.497
I, unless literally the hand of God were to tap me personally and said.
00:17:50.237 --> 00:17:55.617
LaRonda, my whole government name, my whole name, I expect you to go into politics.
00:17:55.617 --> 00:17:57.157
I would not be a politician.
00:17:57.397 --> 00:18:03.917
But if I were, I would run on the platform of sabbaticals for everyone.
00:18:04.077 --> 00:18:08.097
What you're describing is exactly what the sabbatical space affords.
00:18:08.097 --> 00:18:15.317
It affords you the opportunity to reset, to prioritize, and it gives you the space, right?
00:18:15.477 --> 00:18:18.457
So it was an unintentional sabbatical,
00:18:18.457 --> 00:18:23.797
but it really did give you a moment to say, what matters to me?
00:18:23.917 --> 00:18:29.157
What is meaningful to me? And I want to commend you for embracing that because
00:18:29.157 --> 00:18:32.497
a lot of times you talked about the gig economy.
00:18:32.497 --> 00:18:36.997
Because we're moving from gig to gig, or we're trying to hustle and bustle and
00:18:36.997 --> 00:18:40.037
shuffle, which doesn't mean that we aren't meant to work hard.
00:18:40.037 --> 00:18:42.917
It just means that that kind of economy,
00:18:44.035 --> 00:18:52.195
It breeds lack of rest, breeds space where you aren't afforded time and opportunity to think and reflect.
00:18:52.535 --> 00:18:57.875
And so I just want to commend you for embracing that in a way that allowed you
00:18:57.875 --> 00:19:03.455
to transition your life. I mean, when I asked you how it is that you describe
00:19:03.455 --> 00:19:05.035
yourself, you said, I am a griot.
00:19:06.735 --> 00:19:12.755
And I'm just like, yes. You're like, I'm not just out here telling stories and
00:19:12.755 --> 00:19:14.235
writing for the sake of writing.
00:19:14.495 --> 00:19:19.955
I mean, the griots in traditional African and African-derived communities,
00:19:20.255 --> 00:19:24.315
the role of the griot, as you mentioned, is instrumental.
00:19:24.615 --> 00:19:31.035
They are the keepers of the stories. They are the continuity of community.
00:19:31.395 --> 00:19:36.775
And so what I hear you saying and what I know because I've read those who saw
00:19:36.775 --> 00:19:38.375
the sun is that's exactly right.
00:19:38.495 --> 00:19:43.395
I mean, you collected, you know, in a very, you know, that word collected.
00:19:44.015 --> 00:19:51.155
You curated, you know, stories. You pulled stories of people who had survived
00:19:51.155 --> 00:19:56.035
Jim Crow South because you recognized the value of community.
00:19:56.233 --> 00:20:00.633
Those stories not only being told, but being told from the perspectives of the
00:20:00.633 --> 00:20:02.273
people who lived through it.
00:20:02.493 --> 00:20:06.833
Which isn't the same as the WPA, the Works Progress Administration narratives,
00:20:07.073 --> 00:20:09.393
where people are like going, like the spirit behind the WPA,
00:20:09.473 --> 00:20:13.093
there are lots of problems with that, but the format and how it was acquired,
00:20:13.233 --> 00:20:14.633
etc. And the permissions, etc.
00:20:15.093 --> 00:20:19.873
But the spirit of it is exactly right, that these stories matter,
00:20:20.313 --> 00:20:24.133
that our past matters. The past is never just the past, right?
00:20:24.253 --> 00:20:28.973
The past lives into the present, and we need the griots.
00:20:29.153 --> 00:20:34.273
We need the storytellers to help us to understand, interpret, decipher.
00:20:34.593 --> 00:20:39.953
I mean, you know, griots have as much standing as all of the sacred religious
00:20:39.953 --> 00:20:45.353
figures in these communities, right? Because that role is vital.
00:20:45.893 --> 00:20:49.813
And so preserving our history and preserving our culture, come on,
00:20:49.873 --> 00:20:55.973
y'all, this is the Sonia Haines Stone Center for Research in Black Culture and History.
00:20:56.213 --> 00:21:01.493
And doing that truthfully, oh my goodness, I just want to commend you for committing
00:21:01.493 --> 00:21:07.293
to that because in this moment especially, it is a dangerous thing.
00:21:07.293 --> 00:21:13.633
Who knew that being able to state a truth of fact of the history of enslavement
00:21:13.633 --> 00:21:17.953
in America is actually risky because it is, in fact, true?
00:21:18.233 --> 00:21:23.013
Yeah. It goes back to the saying of those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
00:21:23.013 --> 00:21:27.493
What is happening now is exactly what has happened before.
00:21:27.493 --> 00:21:33.073
We've seen this before in this very country, pretty much following the exact
00:21:33.073 --> 00:21:40.753
same parallels that have happened before, which is why we need to know what those parallels are.
00:21:40.913 --> 00:21:46.673
We need to know how our ancestors resisted, how they found joy,
00:21:46.953 --> 00:21:51.873
how they preserved their culture, how they preserve their mental state,
00:21:51.933 --> 00:21:54.513
how they preserve their spiritual state.
00:21:54.593 --> 00:21:58.473
We need to know all of those things because those are lessons that,
00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:03.130
apparently are becoming more relevant than probably most of us ever imagined.
00:22:03.570 --> 00:22:09.050
My in-laws were visiting not that long ago, and, you know, they're in their 80s.
00:22:10.590 --> 00:22:15.150
And anyone who's in their 80s, you know, they know intimately,
00:22:15.430 --> 00:22:19.390
unfortunately, the perils of segregation. They know.
00:22:19.530 --> 00:22:23.630
And I said to them, I said, can you believe? And they were just like, we cannot.
00:22:24.310 --> 00:22:29.590
Yeah. We cannot believe that we are in this moment back.
00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:32.370
I mean, for them, it is going back.
00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:37.530
And we spent a little bit of time talking about, well, how did we get here?
00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:39.510
Not to cast aspersion or blame.
00:22:39.870 --> 00:22:44.850
And one of the things that we could agree on is this sense of falling asleep
00:22:44.850 --> 00:22:46.730
at the wheel, like, oh, everything is fine.
00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:49.670
You know, this sense of like, it's not that it's not important,
00:22:49.690 --> 00:22:53.450
but in terms of prioritizing the stories that we tell our children.
00:22:53.630 --> 00:22:59.390
We've wanted to protect them from it. And that protection, I think,
00:22:59.530 --> 00:23:05.790
has come at a cost and a potentially deadly one for us, you know, truly, you know.
00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:09.850
There are people, and let me just say this, I never thought those who saw The
00:23:09.850 --> 00:23:11.130
Sun was going to be a book.
00:23:11.270 --> 00:23:13.490
I didn't start doing this because it was going to be a book.
00:23:13.610 --> 00:23:17.590
I started interviewing people in my family because I wanted to document and
00:23:17.590 --> 00:23:19.010
preserve those stories because,
00:23:19.423 --> 00:23:24.603
because people were passing away. And then in hearing their stories,
00:23:24.863 --> 00:23:26.423
because me, I just love history.
00:23:26.623 --> 00:23:29.803
So they would mention something and I'm like, oh, I want to know more about
00:23:29.803 --> 00:23:33.163
this. So let me talk to this person that you talked about in your story.
00:23:33.363 --> 00:23:37.443
And so it kind of just grew from there. But again, it was more of a personal passion.
00:23:37.723 --> 00:23:39.663
It was more of a personal project.
00:23:39.963 --> 00:23:45.183
And this is something too, let me just quickly segue into saying,
00:23:45.383 --> 00:23:48.123
and the things that are part of our passions.
00:23:48.383 --> 00:23:52.723
Sometimes we want to keep them to ourselves because we feel like I'm not there
00:23:52.723 --> 00:23:54.983
yet. I shouldn't be speaking on this yet.
00:23:55.543 --> 00:24:00.083
I'm not to this certain, you know, mythical point that's going to all of a sudden
00:24:00.083 --> 00:24:02.683
allow me to be able to speak on what I'm doing.
00:24:02.983 --> 00:24:07.203
And I never had to shop a book around.
00:24:07.483 --> 00:24:12.043
My publisher actually came to me after reading one of my articles,
00:24:12.043 --> 00:24:19.063
and I got this mysterious invitation for Zoom chat.
00:24:19.323 --> 00:24:23.843
Who is this? This is obviously spam. I'm deleting this. But I said,
00:24:23.963 --> 00:24:26.743
no, Jahar, I'm going to Zoom, just see what's going on.
00:24:27.083 --> 00:24:29.543
And it ended up being my now editor.
00:24:31.003 --> 00:24:36.923
We chatted about the work that I was doing, the books that he had acquired in the past.
00:24:37.023 --> 00:24:40.823
And I just happened to mention to him, yeah, I've been interviewing Black elders
00:24:40.823 --> 00:24:44.583
for years. is something that is very near and dear to my heart.
00:24:44.783 --> 00:24:50.063
I consider myself a vessel to share their stories for us to learn from.
00:24:50.483 --> 00:24:57.383
And I did not shop it around to any publishers. And so I just wanted to mention that,
00:24:58.214 --> 00:25:01.654
the things that we are interested in, don't keep it to yourself.
00:25:02.014 --> 00:25:05.694
Share it with people because you never know who is watching you.
00:25:05.834 --> 00:25:10.354
You never know who is appreciating who you are, what you're putting out there.
00:25:10.534 --> 00:25:17.574
And I just never thought that me writing this one particular article about the
00:25:17.574 --> 00:25:25.374
place of Black bookstores in the political space would then lead to all of this.
00:25:25.814 --> 00:25:28.654
So that's kind of how that came about.
00:25:28.874 --> 00:25:38.394
But I was going to say, it also goes back to the importance of culturally relevant journalism.
00:25:38.674 --> 00:25:46.134
And what I mean by that is, if you send a white reporter into a situation like
00:25:46.134 --> 00:25:49.774
this, where having that shared culture,
00:25:50.314 --> 00:25:55.694
having that shared background, having that understanding of what.
00:25:56.378 --> 00:26:01.298
These are part of our traditions. Makes a difference in journalism.
00:26:01.298 --> 00:26:06.758
It makes a difference in history and who's telling history and who's going to
00:26:06.758 --> 00:26:08.738
be comfortable in speaking about history.
00:26:08.738 --> 00:26:17.178
I was in Selma, Alabama for the 60th anniversary of Bloody Sunday and 60 years,
00:26:17.438 --> 00:26:19.498
which is not, it's not that long.
00:26:19.698 --> 00:26:22.458
We think of it as being so long ago.
00:26:22.598 --> 00:26:29.338
It feels like this long, this ancient history, but it is very much alive.
00:26:29.818 --> 00:26:34.698
Yes. Two of the original foot soldiers, which are people that actually marched
00:26:34.698 --> 00:26:39.658
on that day, on Bloody Sunday, they were there, their sisters,
00:26:40.038 --> 00:26:46.158
and I kind of stood nearby because they were being interviewed by two young
00:26:46.158 --> 00:26:48.658
white journalists. They were being interviewed.
00:26:49.118 --> 00:26:52.718
I stood there because I was just waiting to tell them I need to give y'all a
00:26:52.718 --> 00:26:56.358
hug and just thank you, thank you, thank you for what you did,
00:26:56.358 --> 00:27:01.218
for the courage that you have that day. And mind you, they were young.
00:27:01.498 --> 00:27:06.338
They were 13 and 16 on Bloody Sunday when they marched. And so I stood there
00:27:06.338 --> 00:27:08.578
just waiting to hug them.
00:27:09.118 --> 00:27:13.838
And I'm overhearing the interviews. And one of them started talking about how
00:27:13.838 --> 00:27:18.438
she was beaten by a police officer to the point where she passed out.
00:27:18.678 --> 00:27:22.798
She blacked out on the Pettis Bridge and she woke up in the hospital.
00:27:23.018 --> 00:27:26.818
To this day, she has no idea how she got to the hospital.
00:27:27.078 --> 00:27:31.798
Mind you, her sister, her younger sister, was looking for her and just told
00:27:31.798 --> 00:27:35.898
the story from her perspective of just the terror that she felt,
00:27:36.118 --> 00:27:40.158
not knowing where her sister was, what had happened, because they lost each
00:27:40.158 --> 00:27:42.698
other, but she saw her sister being beaten.
00:27:42.918 --> 00:27:49.758
And so the trauma that that created and the journalists were doing fine.
00:27:49.758 --> 00:27:54.398
They were doing fine. But me I just knew.
00:27:55.144 --> 00:27:58.964
If they were sharing this story with somebody that looked like them,
00:27:59.164 --> 00:28:05.644
with somebody who has sat in at the kitchen table like they probably have talking
00:28:05.644 --> 00:28:11.624
about interacting with the police, things that you need to do as a black person
00:28:11.624 --> 00:28:13.084
to be able to make it home.
00:28:13.504 --> 00:28:18.404
Those questions, that conversation would have gone much differently.
00:28:18.684 --> 00:28:24.844
And also the end result would have been richer and deeper.
00:28:25.884 --> 00:28:31.404
So it made me just think about the and it goes back to the WPA project to the
00:28:31.404 --> 00:28:35.784
people who were asking the questions, the people who were answering the questions.
00:28:36.364 --> 00:28:39.224
And it's the same thing. It's the same thing.
00:28:39.444 --> 00:28:44.644
And so, you know, there's been very little effort to empower culturally relevant
00:28:44.644 --> 00:28:48.304
journalism across the board. But that's a whole nother topic.
00:28:52.824 --> 00:28:59.324
Yeah Jahan I could talk to you About this all day But there is something That you said that,
00:29:00.015 --> 00:29:05.855
triggered for me something that you wrote in Those Who Saw the Sun.
00:29:05.975 --> 00:29:09.375
And I want to read a little excerpt because it came from the intro.
00:29:09.795 --> 00:29:13.775
And again, you know, for listeners, the book was Those Who Saw the Sun,
00:29:13.955 --> 00:29:16.035
African-American Oral Histories from the Jim Crow South.
00:29:16.175 --> 00:29:22.375
I'll always have references and links to these resources in the notes on the episode.
00:29:22.755 --> 00:29:27.255
And the book came out in 2023. And I just want to read this little part of it.
00:29:27.335 --> 00:29:29.955
And I want your reaction, if you can give me your reaction.
00:29:30.175 --> 00:29:35.235
So it's a second page and you talked about getting all of these stories and
00:29:35.235 --> 00:29:38.635
learning stories from your grandfather and your grandparents.
00:29:38.635 --> 00:29:41.795
And you talked about your grandparents having gone to Shaw University.
00:29:42.115 --> 00:29:46.115
I didn't know if it would come up in the podcast, but it just so beautifully
00:29:46.115 --> 00:29:47.935
fits in. I'm quoting from here.
00:29:48.215 --> 00:29:51.115
Then there were the stories that I couldn't understand.
00:29:51.695 --> 00:29:53.335
They were stories about a world
00:29:53.335 --> 00:29:57.515
that no longer existed, a world that was hard for me to even imagine.
00:29:57.735 --> 00:30:00.515
It was ruled by somebody named Jim Crow.
00:30:01.075 --> 00:30:06.555
In these stories, my grandparents had to jump off the sidewalk when a white person walked by.
00:30:06.975 --> 00:30:11.595
In these stories, when my grandmother visited the Ambassador Theater in Raleigh
00:30:11.595 --> 00:30:16.035
as a college student, she had to sit in the balcony because Black folks weren't
00:30:16.035 --> 00:30:17.435
allowed on the ground level.
00:30:18.209 --> 00:30:23.289
These stories saw my family placed under police protection in the 60s because
00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:28.069
of their work in the civil rights movement, where evil people placed bombs under
00:30:28.069 --> 00:30:30.469
their cars to stop them from protesting.
00:30:31.149 --> 00:30:35.929
I couldn't imagine anyone seeing my grandparents as something other than what
00:30:35.929 --> 00:30:44.009
I knew them to be—kind, generous, exceedingly intelligent, brave, highly capable people.
00:30:44.849 --> 00:30:50.349
Racism, at its core, is nonsensical. And so as a young girl,
00:30:50.589 --> 00:30:52.689
I struggled to make sense of the senseless.
00:30:53.149 --> 00:30:58.149
Why had my grandparents been treated that way? My grandmother passed away in 2011.
00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:02.829
It occurred to me then that if my family hadn't been listening to her stories
00:31:02.829 --> 00:31:05.749
and her life advice, it would have been gone forever.
00:31:06.289 --> 00:31:11.389
I realized then the importance of documenting the things that seem ordinary
00:31:11.389 --> 00:31:16.809
to us, because one day our ordinary will be history to someone else.
00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:22.309
Someone yet to be born will look back and wonder, what was it like?
00:31:23.249 --> 00:31:28.969
This is especially true for African Americans, because for centuries in this
00:31:28.969 --> 00:31:33.029
country, we were not able to document and preserve our own stories.
00:31:33.429 --> 00:31:38.869
Our ancestors were brought to America in chains, torn from their native land,
00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:43.109
languages, and communities. Forbidden from learning to read or write,
00:31:43.329 --> 00:31:47.549
they did what they had to do to survive American slavery.
00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:53.689
I realized how privileged I was to be living in a time where I can read and
00:31:53.689 --> 00:31:58.909
write, seek higher education, and speak the truth about my own experiences.
00:31:59.329 --> 00:32:04.549
So I decided to use that privilege to do what so many generations of African
00:32:04.549 --> 00:32:08.629
Americans could not, tell the truth about history.
00:32:09.459 --> 00:32:14.599
End quote. Can we still tell the truth in this moment?
00:32:14.979 --> 00:32:18.959
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00:32:49.357 --> 00:32:54.417
And we still tell the truth. Yes, I do it every day. I try to.
00:32:54.737 --> 00:33:00.097
A lot of my work, especially the things that I'm working on in this present
00:33:00.097 --> 00:33:02.117
moment, is still to that end.
00:33:02.977 --> 00:33:07.097
I don't think the question is necessarily, can we tell the truth?
00:33:07.257 --> 00:33:12.037
But it is, what consequences may we face for telling the truth?
00:33:12.217 --> 00:33:15.737
Because you can always tell the truth. I mean, back then they theoretically
00:33:15.737 --> 00:33:19.577
could have told the truth, but what are the consequences going to be?
00:33:19.937 --> 00:33:25.857
And are they consequences that we are ready for and willing to face?
00:33:26.157 --> 00:33:29.097
That's the question. I ask it all the time of myself, like day to day.
00:33:29.397 --> 00:33:34.097
What's at stake and is it worth it? That's exactly right. Part of my plan for
00:33:34.097 --> 00:33:41.377
surviving and thriving over these next few years and however many years it takes.
00:33:42.377 --> 00:33:47.437
Reverberations, yes. One thing that I decided to do, and I had already been
00:33:47.437 --> 00:33:51.377
doing this, but I'm even more committed to it now.
00:33:51.657 --> 00:33:58.197
And that is creating and documenting spaces that are that centered Black joy
00:33:58.197 --> 00:34:03.097
and documenting spaces that are that centered Black joy.
00:34:03.597 --> 00:34:08.057
And and let me be clear. And I do say this in Those Who Saw the Sun as well.
00:34:08.177 --> 00:34:12.777
Our story is not one of trauma. And I think we know that. Yeah. Most of us do know that.
00:34:13.077 --> 00:34:20.257
To me, the African-American story is one of complete joy and resilience and
00:34:20.257 --> 00:34:24.197
creativity and innovation. Yeah. Talent.
00:34:24.597 --> 00:34:26.897
I mean, that is who we are as people.
00:34:27.497 --> 00:34:32.957
Waymaking. I mean, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. It is a story of empowerment for me.
00:34:33.357 --> 00:34:36.837
And those are the things that I try to focus on.
00:34:36.957 --> 00:34:45.837
In my work, I don't contextualize us through the white gaze and the lens of white supremacy.
00:34:46.477 --> 00:34:48.137
I try to...
00:34:49.105 --> 00:34:52.765
Now, of course, we have to engage with those things because we live in America.
00:34:52.945 --> 00:34:58.685
We have no choice but to engage with those things, especially in a historical context.
00:34:59.165 --> 00:35:05.965
With my work, I aim to focus on the essence of who we are and uplift who we
00:35:05.965 --> 00:35:10.985
are as people, spotlight those things, empower those things.
00:35:11.345 --> 00:35:16.905
And so that is the aim of my work. And so I think that that's more needed now
00:35:16.905 --> 00:35:22.385
than ever. I think that telling the truth can mean a lot of different things
00:35:22.385 --> 00:35:24.905
because it's also about who's truth.
00:35:25.245 --> 00:35:32.625
And me as a person who works in oral history mainly, the truth is many different things.
00:35:32.885 --> 00:35:39.925
And so we have to also be open to that idea of engaging with many different
00:35:39.925 --> 00:35:42.905
truths that may exist at the same time.
00:35:43.085 --> 00:35:49.085
But yeah, I 1000% believe that we can tell the truth. I plan to continue telling
00:35:49.085 --> 00:35:56.625
the truth about history and uplifting those truths. I am committed to focusing on that in my work.
00:35:56.665 --> 00:36:02.265
And I think that that is going to be what I have to do to make it in these next years.
00:36:02.305 --> 00:36:07.545
I have to focus on us as a community, us as a people, and the work that I'm
00:36:07.545 --> 00:36:11.725
committed to doing for the ancestors, for ancestral justice,
00:36:11.725 --> 00:36:15.165
as well as for social justice today.
00:36:15.165 --> 00:36:19.745
And so my answer would be yes, emphatically, yes.
00:36:20.045 --> 00:36:24.825
Many people, including many folks who are going to listen to this episode,
00:36:25.125 --> 00:36:28.425
are wondering what the strategies are and should be.
00:36:28.425 --> 00:36:34.105
And I think that you've just given us several that we could take.
00:36:34.205 --> 00:36:35.865
One is about creating joy.
00:36:36.205 --> 00:36:40.105
Well, let's go back. Even before that, your story really is.
00:36:40.643 --> 00:36:47.303
Emphasizes embracing courage, embracing courage to figure out what really is
00:36:47.303 --> 00:36:51.143
meaningful and matters to you, right? So there's that courage piece.
00:36:51.623 --> 00:36:55.323
There's that, you know, I like to call it living in the perpetual sabbatical
00:36:55.323 --> 00:36:57.803
state and embracing that sensibility piece.
00:36:58.323 --> 00:37:00.723
Then there's also the finding joy.
00:37:01.283 --> 00:37:04.443
It's also dealing with the trauma because you didn't say, well,
00:37:04.543 --> 00:37:08.363
we're just going to pretend it doesn't exist, but it's also recognizing that
00:37:08.363 --> 00:37:11.183
we are more than that, right?
00:37:11.343 --> 00:37:16.883
And so it's cultivating joy and doing that even at the expense of risk.
00:37:17.343 --> 00:37:21.163
You know, sometimes that's physical safety, sometimes that's financial safety
00:37:21.163 --> 00:37:24.143
or professional safety. You know, you talk about the ancestral forces.
00:37:24.343 --> 00:37:28.063
Hey, now you're right in my alley. Now we're here, you know?
00:37:28.503 --> 00:37:33.743
Yeah, you know, I've written about that extensively about the power of connecting
00:37:33.743 --> 00:37:39.283
and communing with ancestral forces who have been down these roads,
00:37:39.303 --> 00:37:43.623
who also give us lessons and insights from which we can certainly learn,
00:37:43.743 --> 00:37:46.463
which is why it's so important to tell these truths.
00:37:46.663 --> 00:37:49.743
And I think that people know that, which is also why they're afraid of it.
00:37:49.903 --> 00:37:55.863
You know, I think that's also very, very relevant to this moment that we're
00:37:55.863 --> 00:37:59.783
in. And so, yeah, I'm really grateful for all of those just gems.
00:38:00.083 --> 00:38:03.543
Black truth and Black empowerment has always been a threat to America.
00:38:04.623 --> 00:38:10.123
And so, but that's why we need to lean into it even more.
00:38:10.403 --> 00:38:14.543
Yeah. And in an ultimate sense, it's because it forces accountability.
00:38:15.523 --> 00:38:21.183
We cannot lie about who it is that we say we as a nation are if we look at,
00:38:21.756 --> 00:38:24.816
at the truth of our histories, right? We cannot lie.
00:38:24.956 --> 00:38:30.136
And if we do, we are fooling ourselves and others who would believe that these
00:38:30.136 --> 00:38:36.136
things didn't happen or existed, or that they're so far back in the past.
00:38:36.256 --> 00:38:37.796
Well, actually, they are not.
00:38:38.276 --> 00:38:42.116
And they are resurfacing. I think that if we are not careful,
00:38:42.676 --> 00:38:47.136
which of course is a worry for me occupying and stewarding a space like the
00:38:47.136 --> 00:38:48.716
Stone Center, If we are not careful,
00:38:48.996 --> 00:38:54.176
these stories will be rewritten in such a way that we are not a part of the
00:38:54.176 --> 00:38:58.356
narrative and we simply cannot allow that to be. Yeah, we cannot.
00:38:58.756 --> 00:39:07.336
And I want to say, too, for people who are strategizing on their plan over the next couple of years,
00:39:07.536 --> 00:39:14.396
for every Black person particularly, part of that plan should be talking to elders in your family,
00:39:14.776 --> 00:39:17.476
elders that you know, interviewing them,
00:39:17.896 --> 00:39:24.416
documenting their stories, and gleaning from the lessons that they will be able to share.
00:39:24.416 --> 00:39:30.156
As a millennial who has studied history, who has, you know, such a respect and
00:39:30.156 --> 00:39:33.316
a deep level of knowledge of our history.
00:39:33.896 --> 00:39:40.136
These are times that are unlike anything that I've seen in my lifetime.
00:39:40.836 --> 00:39:45.856
And so it is scary. You know, I there is something to be said about finding
00:39:45.856 --> 00:39:48.576
that courage. But the fact is, it is scary.
00:39:49.116 --> 00:39:56.776
Yeah. And so I'm not trying to minimize that. But I read about the civil rights
00:39:56.776 --> 00:40:00.116
movement and the planning that took place and heard all the stories from my
00:40:00.116 --> 00:40:01.736
grandparents, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:01.936 --> 00:40:06.156
But I've never had to jump off the sidewalk for a white person to walk by.
00:40:06.416 --> 00:40:12.936
You know, there are certain things that are unfolding before our eyes that are
00:40:12.936 --> 00:40:17.156
things that we as millennials have never experienced.
00:40:18.296 --> 00:40:19.256
And there.
00:40:19.821 --> 00:40:26.921
We're privileged in that way. But with that privilege also comes the responsibility
00:40:26.921 --> 00:40:30.221
of carrying those lessons of our forebears.
00:40:30.481 --> 00:40:38.361
And now they are going to be relevant to us in a way that we probably haven't even seen yet.
00:40:38.361 --> 00:40:43.861
So I think that a part of that strategic plan should definitely include leaning
00:40:43.861 --> 00:40:49.861
back into the oral history tradition that existed centuries before our ancestors
00:40:49.861 --> 00:40:54.041
even heard of America or Europe or whatever.
00:40:54.441 --> 00:40:58.961
And so that, I think, is going to be a powerful strategy, no matter who you
00:40:58.961 --> 00:41:01.221
are, no matter what it is that you do.
00:41:01.381 --> 00:41:09.041
We need to return to the oral history tradition in a way that helps us strategize
00:41:09.041 --> 00:41:11.841
and arms us for what's to come.
00:41:14.001 --> 00:41:16.901
Strategizing for us to have a better sense of what happened,
00:41:17.241 --> 00:41:18.601
arming us for what's to come.
00:41:18.861 --> 00:41:23.121
That is a great insight.
00:41:23.301 --> 00:41:27.741
And it's really sage insight. You're leaning into your griot sensibility.
00:41:28.001 --> 00:41:32.981
I'm tremendously grateful for it. And I know that listeners will also be.
00:41:33.161 --> 00:41:35.321
Well, I also know that time is precious.
00:41:35.621 --> 00:41:39.301
We can't get it back. And we could go. I mean, we could go on.
00:41:39.521 --> 00:41:45.241
And we have lots of TBDs. We have, you know, some collaborations that we have coming up.
00:41:45.281 --> 00:41:51.801
So I'm really excited about all that is to come for us, but also I'm just so grateful for,
00:41:52.904 --> 00:41:56.884
Again, that courage that you have to lean into that sensibility,
00:41:57.144 --> 00:41:59.524
but not just theoretically, but in practice.
00:41:59.824 --> 00:42:05.004
It's clear to me from what it is that I see, but also that I hear and I'm learning
00:42:05.004 --> 00:42:07.484
from you, that it's not just lip service.
00:42:07.664 --> 00:42:13.244
And I'm grateful for all that you are doing in this world, millennial.
00:42:15.104 --> 00:42:20.384
All that you are doing and bringing in this world, millennial with an old soul, y'all, truly.
00:42:20.844 --> 00:42:25.284
Old soul, yeah, for sure. Yeah, clearly Jaha has been here before, as we would say.
00:42:25.464 --> 00:42:28.944
So I'm really, really grateful for you. I wanted to make sure,
00:42:29.104 --> 00:42:33.104
is there anything else that you want listeners to hear or to know?
00:42:33.284 --> 00:42:36.764
I mean, pick up an instrument, keep with practice of some sort.
00:42:36.984 --> 00:42:40.044
It also seems another strategy to lift up.
00:42:40.124 --> 00:42:43.484
Is there anything else that you want listeners to know about you,
00:42:43.684 --> 00:42:47.664
Jaha, Avery, or anything else that you want to share?
00:42:48.364 --> 00:42:53.164
Coretta Scott King once said, and I'm paraphrasing, that freedom must be fought
00:42:53.164 --> 00:42:55.024
and won by every generation.
00:42:55.803 --> 00:42:59.263
It's our turn, y'all. I mean, that is just the bottom line.
00:43:00.163 --> 00:43:03.223
Our four bears did what they were supposed to do. And
00:43:03.223 --> 00:43:08.863
we are in this moment now where we have to pick up the mantle and we have to
00:43:08.863 --> 00:43:14.503
equip ourselves so that we can do that in a way of where we win the fight for
00:43:14.503 --> 00:43:18.943
our generation and empower the next generation for their fight.
00:43:19.123 --> 00:43:20.803
So it's not going to be over.
00:43:21.103 --> 00:43:24.423
I don't think there's ever going to be an end point per se.
00:43:24.703 --> 00:43:30.163
But again, that's the wisdom of the elders that every generation is going to have their turn.
00:43:30.423 --> 00:43:34.523
And this is it. People are going to know where the episode title now comes from,
00:43:34.583 --> 00:43:37.643
because I never know until I'm in the episode, it's our turn.
00:43:37.823 --> 00:43:40.903
That's a great reminder, but also call to action.
00:43:41.263 --> 00:43:45.423
So thank you so much, Jahaf, for all the great work you do.
00:43:45.763 --> 00:43:50.143
Listeners, this is a good, good one. Because not only are we going through geography
00:43:50.143 --> 00:43:55.083
and biography, but also that strategy, giving folks something to take with them,
00:43:55.143 --> 00:43:57.443
some nourishment, I think is also really key.
00:43:57.963 --> 00:44:00.703
Especially in this time, we need as much sustenance as we can get.
00:44:00.823 --> 00:44:06.503
So thank you for giving us such good, good sustenance and for causing good trouble.
Professional storyteller. You tell stories and you figure out how to get those stories out.
00:04:42.963 --> 00:04:45.923
When people say, oh, what do you do for a living? What do you say?
00:04:46.123 --> 00:04:51.083
I do tell people that I am a storyteller or I will tell them that I'm a griot
00:04:51.083 --> 00:04:54.623
because that's really the foundation of all of my work.
00:04:54.963 --> 00:04:59.323
And so part of being a griot, of course, storytelling is a big part of that.
00:04:59.503 --> 00:05:05.163
But research is also a big part of being a griot because someone has to tell
00:05:05.163 --> 00:05:09.723
you what you then contextualize and share with others.
00:05:09.983 --> 00:05:14.803
That's what I tell people. And then I go a little more into it and let them
00:05:14.803 --> 00:05:17.183
know, hey, I'm a journalist. I am an author.
00:05:17.603 --> 00:05:22.543
Most recently, I am a harpist. Yeah, I saw that too, that you picked up the
00:05:22.543 --> 00:05:24.723
harp. And I was like, why the harp?
00:05:24.903 --> 00:05:28.843
I saw a Black woman on Instagram playing the harp.
00:05:29.063 --> 00:05:33.943
Yeah. And I thought to myself, So I don't think I've ever seen a black woman playing the harp.
00:05:34.103 --> 00:05:38.103
So I DMed her and I said, can you teach me how to play the harp?
00:05:38.463 --> 00:05:43.003
Wow. This was in the middle of the pandemic, of course. So I faced so many challenges
00:05:43.003 --> 00:05:46.603
because, of course, you can't just go out and buy a harp. It's a big instrument.
00:05:47.483 --> 00:05:51.123
Like, what kind of vehicle are you putting this harp in? What kind of vehicle?
00:05:51.423 --> 00:05:57.103
You know, the barrier of entry to begin playing the harp is very, very high.
00:05:57.103 --> 00:06:01.983
But I am in the very beginning phases of learning how to play a traditional
00:06:01.983 --> 00:06:08.543
West African harp, kora, and that has been a completely different experience with the instrument.
00:06:08.803 --> 00:06:11.863
And so both of them have been very fulfilling to me.
00:06:12.423 --> 00:06:14.483
Oh, my God. Okay. So many things.
00:06:15.683 --> 00:06:25.423
So listeners, now you know why I'm talking to Jahan because all of these wonderfully rich and dynamic,
00:06:26.101 --> 00:06:32.301
pieces of who you are. I strive to live my life so that I don't have to piecemeal myself together.
00:06:32.501 --> 00:06:38.261
And I want to create environments for people to be able to be their whole and full selves.
00:06:38.421 --> 00:06:42.161
And so here you are, you're like, no, I'm a storyteller. I'm a griot.
00:06:42.781 --> 00:06:46.601
I'm learning the harp, but I'm also going to the quora, right?
00:06:46.921 --> 00:06:50.141
I write. I'm a journalist, but I'm also a researcher.
00:06:51.841 --> 00:06:55.901
Unapologetically North Carolinian, Southern born and bred.
00:06:56.341 --> 00:06:59.741
Yeah. I'm a member of the Afro-Southern diaspora.
00:06:59.941 --> 00:07:05.121
And that is a very specific culture that we should be very proud of. I'm very proud of it.
00:07:05.657 --> 00:07:09.397
You know, I'm not going to let anybody make me, you know, people have such a
00:07:09.397 --> 00:07:11.157
proclivity to look down on Southerners.
00:07:11.297 --> 00:07:15.157
And I think it's ridiculous because Southern culture, though foundational,
00:07:15.657 --> 00:07:20.277
remains relevant, remains influential, especially Afro-Southern culture.
00:07:20.517 --> 00:07:22.877
So, yeah, I tell people I'm a proud Southerner.
00:07:23.477 --> 00:07:27.577
Did you always know that you were going to be a lawyer or wanted to go to law school?
00:07:27.797 --> 00:07:30.637
Would you say you've been delivered from the law? What would you say about this
00:07:30.637 --> 00:07:34.117
law degree that you have that you got from Carolina? What would you say about
00:07:34.117 --> 00:07:41.157
how the, I mean, yeah, how going to become a lawyer has shifted?
00:07:41.577 --> 00:07:46.397
Where does being a lawyer fit into who it is that you are and how you see yourself?
00:07:46.637 --> 00:07:51.857
Let me just say this. I always wanted to be a writer. When I was a kid, wanted to be a writer.
00:07:52.377 --> 00:07:55.517
I always wrote poetry, short stories and everything.
00:07:55.697 --> 00:08:01.677
My family, church, community, everybody was so supportive and encouraging of my writing.
00:08:02.297 --> 00:08:06.477
My grandparents told me, you can't make money as a writer. You don't go to law
00:08:06.477 --> 00:08:10.017
school. You're going to med school. You're going to grad school, something.
00:08:10.517 --> 00:08:13.557
You're going to be a doctor. Something. Lawyer or engineer.
00:08:14.677 --> 00:08:19.017
Throughout the Black diaspora, it's one of these three things that people are
00:08:19.017 --> 00:08:21.837
like, this is the tell of success. I would even say teachers.
00:08:22.057 --> 00:08:26.097
I had a lot of educators in my family. My grandmother was an old school educator.
00:08:26.437 --> 00:08:28.777
So, you know, that was always an option, too.
00:08:29.729 --> 00:08:34.849
I'm not faulting my grandparents or, you know, to me, especially then,
00:08:34.849 --> 00:08:36.309
it was a different world.
00:08:36.549 --> 00:08:41.689
Technology has really removed some of the barriers that previously existed in
00:08:41.689 --> 00:08:43.049
publishing and journalism.
00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:45.829
And I'm not saying that they're completely eradicated, of course,
00:08:45.949 --> 00:08:51.929
but we have access to more people and information than we did even when I was a little kid.
00:08:52.529 --> 00:08:59.489
And so they gave me information based on what they felt I would be able to do
00:08:59.489 --> 00:09:02.609
successfully to be able to have a beautiful life.
00:09:02.769 --> 00:09:06.129
And so I do appreciate them for pushing me in that direction.
00:09:06.389 --> 00:09:11.169
A lot of people have never heard anyone say that before, but I loved law school.
00:09:11.349 --> 00:09:16.149
And the reason that I felt that going to law school was the right choice for me,
00:09:16.469 --> 00:09:19.569
because I've always been interested in how
00:09:19.569 --> 00:09:25.889
can I use my skills and my talents to bring back to my community and create
00:09:25.889 --> 00:09:36.509
spaces for us to become empowered and to become educated and use my skills again to build my community.
00:09:36.969 --> 00:09:43.749
Law school was an amazing experience for me because I was able to learn from
00:09:43.749 --> 00:09:45.609
so many brilliant legal minds.
00:09:45.789 --> 00:09:49.989
I will say Carolina Law has excellent faculty members.
00:09:50.749 --> 00:09:56.229
And I was just, it was an incredible intellectual environment.
00:09:56.389 --> 00:10:02.469
And so when I graduated law school, of course, took the bar and,
00:10:03.136 --> 00:10:08.276
I felt like, OK, I have a law degree. I can I can work in the legal profession.
00:10:08.496 --> 00:10:13.616
Let me just check it out and see how it is. And I lasted for about a month and a half.
00:10:13.836 --> 00:10:19.016
Damn. I don't have the type of personality that does well in the legal profession.
00:10:19.916 --> 00:10:23.196
Even though you're even though you're a type A personality, what do you mean?
00:10:23.476 --> 00:10:29.456
What I mean by that is I'm a person that I need to see impact now.
00:10:29.456 --> 00:10:35.016
I can't work 50 years and see a little bit of impact from that last 50 years.
00:10:35.196 --> 00:10:40.716
I need to be able to do work that I can see and I can feel and the impact is there.
00:10:40.936 --> 00:10:44.196
And that is what really keeps me motivated.
00:10:44.556 --> 00:10:47.676
Well, part of what keeps me motivated in my professional career.
00:10:47.676 --> 00:10:51.576
And I'm like, I just cannot toil away, especially in civil rights law.
00:10:51.716 --> 00:10:56.536
You have to be willing to toil away your entire professional career and,
00:10:57.033 --> 00:11:01.473
You may only see a little bit of progress, but you know you're building something
00:11:01.473 --> 00:11:05.873
for that next generation to then stand upon, that next generation to stand upon.
00:11:05.993 --> 00:11:09.473
But you may not yourself see the impact of your work.
00:11:09.653 --> 00:11:15.573
I don't have the type of personality where I can continue to do that and not
00:11:15.573 --> 00:11:16.953
see the impact of my work.
00:11:17.073 --> 00:11:21.653
And so I thought to myself, you know, where am I going to be able to see that impact?
00:11:22.313 --> 00:11:27.653
So me going into startups was really more me thinking, how can I use this expensive
00:11:27.653 --> 00:11:33.693
law degree that I now have, but also be able to combine that with innovation,
00:11:34.293 --> 00:11:38.053
impact, me doing something that I can see the impact of.
00:11:38.353 --> 00:11:40.273
And that's how I ended up in startups.
00:11:40.693 --> 00:11:44.053
My first job out of law school was at Uber.
00:11:44.493 --> 00:11:46.693
That's an important caveat. Yes.
00:11:47.833 --> 00:11:51.753
When I started at Uber, nobody knew what Uber was. I was part of the team that
00:11:51.753 --> 00:11:54.353
brought Uber to the Southeast U.S.
00:11:54.593 --> 00:11:58.573
And it's funny to think that there was a time where you could mention Uber and
00:11:58.573 --> 00:12:00.533
literally no one knew what it was.
00:12:00.673 --> 00:12:03.593
I remember telling my family, yeah, I got this new job and everything.
00:12:03.793 --> 00:12:07.933
And they were like, okay, so you're basically going to put strangers in the
00:12:07.933 --> 00:12:11.253
car with other strangers and that's your job.
00:12:11.553 --> 00:12:16.373
I'm pretty sure they thought I was completely unemployed and just lying about this new opportunity.
00:12:18.073 --> 00:12:21.013
So I started there. It was exciting.
00:12:21.213 --> 00:12:27.313
It was wonderful at first, but Uber didn't necessarily scale with a lot of integrity.
00:12:27.493 --> 00:12:29.933
And so I ended up leaving Uber.
00:12:30.153 --> 00:12:36.313
And that was a huge lesson for me because I realized that I cannot stay at a
00:12:36.313 --> 00:12:41.533
company that is engaging in behaviors that doesn't match my ideals.
00:12:41.893 --> 00:12:48.093
So I walked away from Uber and trust me, that was a lot of money to be walking away from.
00:12:48.787 --> 00:12:54.247
Wait, so wait, hold on now. There's a step in there because what you said is
00:12:54.247 --> 00:13:02.467
just so profound, like staying at a place that doesn't represent what it is that you believe in,
00:13:02.607 --> 00:13:04.867
right? I work at UNC Chapel Hill.
00:13:05.787 --> 00:13:10.147
Fundamentally, I believe in that mission, but you're leaving money on the table,
00:13:10.547 --> 00:13:12.727
lots of money, lots of resource.
00:13:13.447 --> 00:13:17.247
Where did you get the courage? How did you know that you would be okay?
00:13:17.507 --> 00:13:20.067
Or did you not know and you just took a leap of faith?
00:13:20.627 --> 00:13:26.247
I knew that I was being asked to do things that did not align with my core beliefs.
00:13:26.527 --> 00:13:28.907
And you said something very important.
00:13:29.207 --> 00:13:33.967
You believe in the mission. At that point, I no longer believed in the mission.
00:13:34.507 --> 00:13:40.567
And so I just said, I can't in all good conscience know who I am as a person,
00:13:40.567 --> 00:13:44.287
face myself as a person. And so I left.
00:13:44.567 --> 00:13:49.647
Is that when you started freelancing? So at this point, I was snatched up pretty
00:13:49.647 --> 00:13:55.867
quickly to come and help build a nonprofit rideshare, which was the first one in the country.
00:13:56.567 --> 00:14:00.307
And so I worked there for four years.
00:14:00.507 --> 00:14:05.047
And then what happened was I got laid off at the very start of the pandemic.
00:14:05.587 --> 00:14:09.567
And so I got laid off. Did you have a nest egg or did you know it was coming?
00:14:09.767 --> 00:14:13.107
Could you feel it? I'm all in your pockets. I'm not pocket watching.
00:14:13.107 --> 00:14:16.667
I'm really just asking because I know that people listening are going to be
00:14:16.667 --> 00:14:18.407
like, hold on, wait, how do I make this choice?
00:14:18.487 --> 00:14:22.147
Because I know that there are people who are sitting in a job that they despise,
00:14:22.307 --> 00:14:27.987
are sitting in spaces that they feel rub against what it is they believe in
00:14:27.987 --> 00:14:29.867
their heart of hearts and their soul of souls.
00:14:30.047 --> 00:14:34.007
I know that they're going to want to know. And let me speak to that a little
00:14:34.007 --> 00:14:39.187
bit more, too, because I want to say that the decision to leave Uber wasn't
00:14:39.187 --> 00:14:41.847
an overnight decision or a quick decision.
00:14:41.847 --> 00:14:45.627
When things started going in a direction that I did not.
00:14:46.195 --> 00:14:50.575
Light. I spent months proposing and working on programs that I felt could kind
00:14:50.575 --> 00:14:54.575
of help tip the balance back in another way.
00:14:55.295 --> 00:15:02.415
Now, I don't believe in the gig economy. And I feel kind of ashamed of even
00:15:02.415 --> 00:15:05.495
having been a part of, you know,
00:15:06.095 --> 00:15:10.195
building one of the biggest companies in the gig economy that ushered in the
00:15:10.195 --> 00:15:12.595
gig economy. I don't believe in that now.
00:15:12.775 --> 00:15:16.295
And I did try to affect positive change from the inside.
00:15:16.875 --> 00:15:21.115
Some of those things were accepted. Some of them were not. And I do feel that
00:15:21.115 --> 00:15:29.015
there's something to be said for being in a space and doing what you can to improve that space,
00:15:29.015 --> 00:15:32.815
especially if you can't leave. You know, leaving is not always an option.
00:15:33.375 --> 00:15:36.975
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Literally at the very start of the pandemic, because, of course,
00:16:14.175 --> 00:16:19.575
operations were completely shut down because you didn't know how close you could be to someone.
00:16:19.755 --> 00:16:23.255
No one wanted to be in the car with anybody. Everyone was at home and we were in lockdown.
00:16:23.515 --> 00:16:27.515
So our whole entire product, it was made irrelevant overnight.
00:16:28.115 --> 00:16:34.355
So I was laid off. But that ended up being a really good thing for me in general,
00:16:34.355 --> 00:16:37.195
because we were getting the $600.
00:16:38.175 --> 00:16:43.155
Supplement at that time, the federal supplement. And so I told myself, Jahaf,
00:16:43.917 --> 00:16:47.057
It's now or never. You need to sit down.
00:16:47.437 --> 00:16:53.177
Because I had had things to write about for years, but I just never had the time.
00:16:53.317 --> 00:16:56.477
You know, working in a startup, it's just so hectic. You're always,
00:16:56.757 --> 00:16:59.937
it's a grind. It is a constant grind.
00:17:00.317 --> 00:17:04.297
And I said, I'm at home. We're in lockdowns.
00:17:04.717 --> 00:17:09.157
I don't have to worry about money right now because I'm getting unemployment.
00:17:09.157 --> 00:17:10.957
I'm getting, you know, supplement.
00:17:11.377 --> 00:17:15.557
I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write out everything that I have had
00:17:15.557 --> 00:17:18.217
on my heart to write over all of these years.
00:17:18.337 --> 00:17:23.957
I am going to learn how to get published in some of these publications.
00:17:24.577 --> 00:17:29.477
I am going to learn how to craft letters to editors, pitches.
00:17:29.917 --> 00:17:36.497
I literally used probably about a six-month period of time to just sit there,
00:17:36.737 --> 00:17:41.157
write, craft proposals and query letters and pitches and everything.
00:17:41.157 --> 00:17:44.037
And I just figured it out.
00:17:44.417 --> 00:17:49.497
I, unless literally the hand of God were to tap me personally and said.
00:17:50.237 --> 00:17:55.617
LaRonda, my whole government name, my whole name, I expect you to go into politics.
00:17:55.617 --> 00:17:57.157
I would not be a politician.
00:17:57.397 --> 00:18:03.917
But if I were, I would run on the platform of sabbaticals for everyone.
00:18:04.077 --> 00:18:08.097
What you're describing is exactly what the sabbatical space affords.
00:18:08.097 --> 00:18:15.317
It affords you the opportunity to reset, to prioritize, and it gives you the space, right?
00:18:15.477 --> 00:18:18.457
So it was an unintentional sabbatical,
00:18:18.457 --> 00:18:23.797
but it really did give you a moment to say, what matters to me?
00:18:23.917 --> 00:18:29.157
What is meaningful to me? And I want to commend you for embracing that because
00:18:29.157 --> 00:18:32.497
a lot of times you talked about the gig economy.
00:18:32.497 --> 00:18:36.997
Because we're moving from gig to gig, or we're trying to hustle and bustle and
00:18:36.997 --> 00:18:40.037
shuffle, which doesn't mean that we aren't meant to work hard.
00:18:40.037 --> 00:18:42.917
It just means that that kind of economy,
00:18:44.035 --> 00:18:52.195
It breeds lack of rest, breeds space where you aren't afforded time and opportunity to think and reflect.
00:18:52.535 --> 00:18:57.875
And so I just want to commend you for embracing that in a way that allowed you
00:18:57.875 --> 00:19:03.455
to transition your life. I mean, when I asked you how it is that you describe
00:19:03.455 --> 00:19:05.035
yourself, you said, I am a griot.
00:19:06.735 --> 00:19:12.755
And I'm just like, yes. You're like, I'm not just out here telling stories and
00:19:12.755 --> 00:19:14.235
writing for the sake of writing.
00:19:14.495 --> 00:19:19.955
I mean, the griots in traditional African and African-derived communities,
00:19:20.255 --> 00:19:24.315
the role of the griot, as you mentioned, is instrumental.
00:19:24.615 --> 00:19:31.035
They are the keepers of the stories. They are the continuity of community.
00:19:31.395 --> 00:19:36.775
And so what I hear you saying and what I know because I've read those who saw
00:19:36.775 --> 00:19:38.375
the sun is that's exactly right.
00:19:38.495 --> 00:19:43.395
I mean, you collected, you know, in a very, you know, that word collected.
00:19:44.015 --> 00:19:51.155
You curated, you know, stories. You pulled stories of people who had survived
00:19:51.155 --> 00:19:56.035
Jim Crow South because you recognized the value of community.
00:19:56.233 --> 00:20:00.633
Those stories not only being told, but being told from the perspectives of the
00:20:00.633 --> 00:20:02.273
people who lived through it.
00:20:02.493 --> 00:20:06.833
Which isn't the same as the WPA, the Works Progress Administration narratives,
00:20:07.073 --> 00:20:09.393
where people are like going, like the spirit behind the WPA,
00:20:09.473 --> 00:20:13.093
there are lots of problems with that, but the format and how it was acquired,
00:20:13.233 --> 00:20:14.633
etc. And the permissions, etc.
00:20:15.093 --> 00:20:19.873
But the spirit of it is exactly right, that these stories matter,
00:20:20.313 --> 00:20:24.133
that our past matters. The past is never just the past, right?
00:20:24.253 --> 00:20:28.973
The past lives into the present, and we need the griots.
00:20:29.153 --> 00:20:34.273
We need the storytellers to help us to understand, interpret, decipher.
00:20:34.593 --> 00:20:39.953
I mean, you know, griots have as much standing as all of the sacred religious
00:20:39.953 --> 00:20:45.353
figures in these communities, right? Because that role is vital.
00:20:45.893 --> 00:20:49.813
And so preserving our history and preserving our culture, come on,
00:20:49.873 --> 00:20:55.973
y'all, this is the Sonia Haines Stone Center for Research in Black Culture and History.
00:20:56.213 --> 00:21:01.493
And doing that truthfully, oh my goodness, I just want to commend you for committing
00:21:01.493 --> 00:21:07.293
to that because in this moment especially, it is a dangerous thing.
00:21:07.293 --> 00:21:13.633
Who knew that being able to state a truth of fact of the history of enslavement
00:21:13.633 --> 00:21:17.953
in America is actually risky because it is, in fact, true?
00:21:18.233 --> 00:21:23.013
Yeah. It goes back to the saying of those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
00:21:23.013 --> 00:21:27.493
What is happening now is exactly what has happened before.
00:21:27.493 --> 00:21:33.073
We've seen this before in this very country, pretty much following the exact
00:21:33.073 --> 00:21:40.753
same parallels that have happened before, which is why we need to know what those parallels are.
00:21:40.913 --> 00:21:46.673
We need to know how our ancestors resisted, how they found joy,
00:21:46.953 --> 00:21:51.873
how they preserved their culture, how they preserve their mental state,
00:21:51.933 --> 00:21:54.513
how they preserve their spiritual state.
00:21:54.593 --> 00:21:58.473
We need to know all of those things because those are lessons that,
00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:03.130
apparently are becoming more relevant than probably most of us ever imagined.
00:22:03.570 --> 00:22:09.050
My in-laws were visiting not that long ago, and, you know, they're in their 80s.
00:22:10.590 --> 00:22:15.150
And anyone who's in their 80s, you know, they know intimately,
00:22:15.430 --> 00:22:19.390
unfortunately, the perils of segregation. They know.
00:22:19.530 --> 00:22:23.630
And I said to them, I said, can you believe? And they were just like, we cannot.
00:22:24.310 --> 00:22:29.590
Yeah. We cannot believe that we are in this moment back.
00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:32.370
I mean, for them, it is going back.
00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:37.530
And we spent a little bit of time talking about, well, how did we get here?
00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:39.510
Not to cast aspersion or blame.
00:22:39.870 --> 00:22:44.850
And one of the things that we could agree on is this sense of falling asleep
00:22:44.850 --> 00:22:46.730
at the wheel, like, oh, everything is fine.
00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:49.670
You know, this sense of like, it's not that it's not important,
00:22:49.690 --> 00:22:53.450
but in terms of prioritizing the stories that we tell our children.
00:22:53.630 --> 00:22:59.390
We've wanted to protect them from it. And that protection, I think,
00:22:59.530 --> 00:23:05.790
has come at a cost and a potentially deadly one for us, you know, truly, you know.
00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:09.850
There are people, and let me just say this, I never thought those who saw The
00:23:09.850 --> 00:23:11.130
Sun was going to be a book.
00:23:11.270 --> 00:23:13.490
I didn't start doing this because it was going to be a book.
00:23:13.610 --> 00:23:17.590
I started interviewing people in my family because I wanted to document and
00:23:17.590 --> 00:23:19.010
preserve those stories because,
00:23:19.423 --> 00:23:24.603
because people were passing away. And then in hearing their stories,
00:23:24.863 --> 00:23:26.423
because me, I just love history.
00:23:26.623 --> 00:23:29.803
So they would mention something and I'm like, oh, I want to know more about
00:23:29.803 --> 00:23:33.163
this. So let me talk to this person that you talked about in your story.
00:23:33.363 --> 00:23:37.443
And so it kind of just grew from there. But again, it was more of a personal passion.
00:23:37.723 --> 00:23:39.663
It was more of a personal project.
00:23:39.963 --> 00:23:45.183
And this is something too, let me just quickly segue into saying,
00:23:45.383 --> 00:23:48.123
and the things that are part of our passions.
00:23:48.383 --> 00:23:52.723
Sometimes we want to keep them to ourselves because we feel like I'm not there
00:23:52.723 --> 00:23:54.983
yet. I shouldn't be speaking on this yet.
00:23:55.543 --> 00:24:00.083
I'm not to this certain, you know, mythical point that's going to all of a sudden
00:24:00.083 --> 00:24:02.683
allow me to be able to speak on what I'm doing.
00:24:02.983 --> 00:24:07.203
And I never had to shop a book around.
00:24:07.483 --> 00:24:12.043
My publisher actually came to me after reading one of my articles,
00:24:12.043 --> 00:24:19.063
and I got this mysterious invitation for Zoom chat.
00:24:19.323 --> 00:24:23.843
Who is this? This is obviously spam. I'm deleting this. But I said,
00:24:23.963 --> 00:24:26.743
no, Jahar, I'm going to Zoom, just see what's going on.
00:24:27.083 --> 00:24:29.543
And it ended up being my now editor.
00:24:31.003 --> 00:24:36.923
We chatted about the work that I was doing, the books that he had acquired in the past.
00:24:37.023 --> 00:24:40.823
And I just happened to mention to him, yeah, I've been interviewing Black elders
00:24:40.823 --> 00:24:44.583
for years. is something that is very near and dear to my heart.
00:24:44.783 --> 00:24:50.063
I consider myself a vessel to share their stories for us to learn from.
00:24:50.483 --> 00:24:57.383
And I did not shop it around to any publishers. And so I just wanted to mention that,
00:24:58.214 --> 00:25:01.654
the things that we are interested in, don't keep it to yourself.
00:25:02.014 --> 00:25:05.694
Share it with people because you never know who is watching you.
00:25:05.834 --> 00:25:10.354
You never know who is appreciating who you are, what you're putting out there.
00:25:10.534 --> 00:25:17.574
And I just never thought that me writing this one particular article about the
00:25:17.574 --> 00:25:25.374
place of Black bookstores in the political space would then lead to all of this.
00:25:25.814 --> 00:25:28.654
So that's kind of how that came about.
00:25:28.874 --> 00:25:38.394
But I was going to say, it also goes back to the importance of culturally relevant journalism.
00:25:38.674 --> 00:25:46.134
And what I mean by that is, if you send a white reporter into a situation like
00:25:46.134 --> 00:25:49.774
this, where having that shared culture,
00:25:50.314 --> 00:25:55.694
having that shared background, having that understanding of what.
00:25:56.378 --> 00:26:01.298
These are part of our traditions. Makes a difference in journalism.
00:26:01.298 --> 00:26:06.758
It makes a difference in history and who's telling history and who's going to
00:26:06.758 --> 00:26:08.738
be comfortable in speaking about history.
00:26:08.738 --> 00:26:17.178
I was in Selma, Alabama for the 60th anniversary of Bloody Sunday and 60 years,
00:26:17.438 --> 00:26:19.498
which is not, it's not that long.
00:26:19.698 --> 00:26:22.458
We think of it as being so long ago.
00:26:22.598 --> 00:26:29.338
It feels like this long, this ancient history, but it is very much alive.
00:26:29.818 --> 00:26:34.698
Yes. Two of the original foot soldiers, which are people that actually marched
00:26:34.698 --> 00:26:39.658
on that day, on Bloody Sunday, they were there, their sisters,
00:26:40.038 --> 00:26:46.158
and I kind of stood nearby because they were being interviewed by two young
00:26:46.158 --> 00:26:48.658
white journalists. They were being interviewed.
00:26:49.118 --> 00:26:52.718
I stood there because I was just waiting to tell them I need to give y'all a
00:26:52.718 --> 00:26:56.358
hug and just thank you, thank you, thank you for what you did,
00:26:56.358 --> 00:27:01.218
for the courage that you have that day. And mind you, they were young.
00:27:01.498 --> 00:27:06.338
They were 13 and 16 on Bloody Sunday when they marched. And so I stood there
00:27:06.338 --> 00:27:08.578
just waiting to hug them.
00:27:09.118 --> 00:27:13.838
And I'm overhearing the interviews. And one of them started talking about how
00:27:13.838 --> 00:27:18.438
she was beaten by a police officer to the point where she passed out.
00:27:18.678 --> 00:27:22.798
She blacked out on the Pettis Bridge and she woke up in the hospital.
00:27:23.018 --> 00:27:26.818
To this day, she has no idea how she got to the hospital.
00:27:27.078 --> 00:27:31.798
Mind you, her sister, her younger sister, was looking for her and just told
00:27:31.798 --> 00:27:35.898
the story from her perspective of just the terror that she felt,
00:27:36.118 --> 00:27:40.158
not knowing where her sister was, what had happened, because they lost each
00:27:40.158 --> 00:27:42.698
other, but she saw her sister being beaten.
00:27:42.918 --> 00:27:49.758
And so the trauma that that created and the journalists were doing fine.
00:27:49.758 --> 00:27:54.398
They were doing fine. But me I just knew.
00:27:55.144 --> 00:27:58.964
If they were sharing this story with somebody that looked like them,
00:27:59.164 --> 00:28:05.644
with somebody who has sat in at the kitchen table like they probably have talking
00:28:05.644 --> 00:28:11.624
about interacting with the police, things that you need to do as a black person
00:28:11.624 --> 00:28:13.084
to be able to make it home.
00:28:13.504 --> 00:28:18.404
Those questions, that conversation would have gone much differently.
00:28:18.684 --> 00:28:24.844
And also the end result would have been richer and deeper.
00:28:25.884 --> 00:28:31.404
So it made me just think about the and it goes back to the WPA project to the
00:28:31.404 --> 00:28:35.784
people who were asking the questions, the people who were answering the questions.
00:28:36.364 --> 00:28:39.224
And it's the same thing. It's the same thing.
00:28:39.444 --> 00:28:44.644
And so, you know, there's been very little effort to empower culturally relevant
00:28:44.644 --> 00:28:48.304
journalism across the board. But that's a whole nother topic.
00:28:52.824 --> 00:28:59.324
Yeah Jahan I could talk to you About this all day But there is something That you said that,
00:29:00.015 --> 00:29:05.855
triggered for me something that you wrote in Those Who Saw the Sun.
00:29:05.975 --> 00:29:09.375
And I want to read a little excerpt because it came from the intro.
00:29:09.795 --> 00:29:13.775
And again, you know, for listeners, the book was Those Who Saw the Sun,
00:29:13.955 --> 00:29:16.035
African-American Oral Histories from the Jim Crow South.
00:29:16.175 --> 00:29:22.375
I'll always have references and links to these resources in the notes on the episode.
00:29:22.755 --> 00:29:27.255
And the book came out in 2023. And I just want to read this little part of it.
00:29:27.335 --> 00:29:29.955
And I want your reaction, if you can give me your reaction.
00:29:30.175 --> 00:29:35.235
So it's a second page and you talked about getting all of these stories and
00:29:35.235 --> 00:29:38.635
learning stories from your grandfather and your grandparents.
00:29:38.635 --> 00:29:41.795
And you talked about your grandparents having gone to Shaw University.
00:29:42.115 --> 00:29:46.115
I didn't know if it would come up in the podcast, but it just so beautifully
00:29:46.115 --> 00:29:47.935
fits in. I'm quoting from here.
00:29:48.215 --> 00:29:51.115
Then there were the stories that I couldn't understand.
00:29:51.695 --> 00:29:53.335
They were stories about a world
00:29:53.335 --> 00:29:57.515
that no longer existed, a world that was hard for me to even imagine.
00:29:57.735 --> 00:30:00.515
It was ruled by somebody named Jim Crow.
00:30:01.075 --> 00:30:06.555
In these stories, my grandparents had to jump off the sidewalk when a white person walked by.
00:30:06.975 --> 00:30:11.595
In these stories, when my grandmother visited the Ambassador Theater in Raleigh
00:30:11.595 --> 00:30:16.035
as a college student, she had to sit in the balcony because Black folks weren't
00:30:16.035 --> 00:30:17.435
allowed on the ground level.
00:30:18.209 --> 00:30:23.289
These stories saw my family placed under police protection in the 60s because
00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:28.069
of their work in the civil rights movement, where evil people placed bombs under
00:30:28.069 --> 00:30:30.469
their cars to stop them from protesting.
00:30:31.149 --> 00:30:35.929
I couldn't imagine anyone seeing my grandparents as something other than what
00:30:35.929 --> 00:30:44.009
I knew them to be—kind, generous, exceedingly intelligent, brave, highly capable people.
00:30:44.849 --> 00:30:50.349
Racism, at its core, is nonsensical. And so as a young girl,
00:30:50.589 --> 00:30:52.689
I struggled to make sense of the senseless.
00:30:53.149 --> 00:30:58.149
Why had my grandparents been treated that way? My grandmother passed away in 2011.
00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:02.829
It occurred to me then that if my family hadn't been listening to her stories
00:31:02.829 --> 00:31:05.749
and her life advice, it would have been gone forever.
00:31:06.289 --> 00:31:11.389
I realized then the importance of documenting the things that seem ordinary
00:31:11.389 --> 00:31:16.809
to us, because one day our ordinary will be history to someone else.
00:31:17.509 --> 00:31:22.309
Someone yet to be born will look back and wonder, what was it like?
00:31:23.249 --> 00:31:28.969
This is especially true for African Americans, because for centuries in this
00:31:28.969 --> 00:31:33.029
country, we were not able to document and preserve our own stories.
00:31:33.429 --> 00:31:38.869
Our ancestors were brought to America in chains, torn from their native land,
00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:43.109
languages, and communities. Forbidden from learning to read or write,
00:31:43.329 --> 00:31:47.549
they did what they had to do to survive American slavery.
00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:53.689
I realized how privileged I was to be living in a time where I can read and
00:31:53.689 --> 00:31:58.909
write, seek higher education, and speak the truth about my own experiences.
00:31:59.329 --> 00:32:04.549
So I decided to use that privilege to do what so many generations of African
00:32:04.549 --> 00:32:08.629
Americans could not, tell the truth about history.
00:32:09.459 --> 00:32:14.599
End quote. Can we still tell the truth in this moment?
00:32:14.979 --> 00:32:18.959
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00:32:49.357 --> 00:32:54.417
And we still tell the truth. Yes, I do it every day. I try to.
00:32:54.737 --> 00:33:00.097
A lot of my work, especially the things that I'm working on in this present
00:33:00.097 --> 00:33:02.117
moment, is still to that end.
00:33:02.977 --> 00:33:07.097
I don't think the question is necessarily, can we tell the truth?
00:33:07.257 --> 00:33:12.037
But it is, what consequences may we face for telling the truth?
00:33:12.217 --> 00:33:15.737
Because you can always tell the truth. I mean, back then they theoretically
00:33:15.737 --> 00:33:19.577
could have told the truth, but what are the consequences going to be?
00:33:19.937 --> 00:33:25.857
And are they consequences that we are ready for and willing to face?
00:33:26.157 --> 00:33:29.097
That's the question. I ask it all the time of myself, like day to day.
00:33:29.397 --> 00:33:34.097
What's at stake and is it worth it? That's exactly right. Part of my plan for
00:33:34.097 --> 00:33:41.377
surviving and thriving over these next few years and however many years it takes.
00:33:42.377 --> 00:33:47.437
Reverberations, yes. One thing that I decided to do, and I had already been
00:33:47.437 --> 00:33:51.377
doing this, but I'm even more committed to it now.
00:33:51.657 --> 00:33:58.197
And that is creating and documenting spaces that are that centered Black joy
00:33:58.197 --> 00:34:03.097
and documenting spaces that are that centered Black joy.
00:34:03.597 --> 00:34:08.057
And and let me be clear. And I do say this in Those Who Saw the Sun as well.
00:34:08.177 --> 00:34:12.777
Our story is not one of trauma. And I think we know that. Yeah. Most of us do know that.
00:34:13.077 --> 00:34:20.257
To me, the African-American story is one of complete joy and resilience and
00:34:20.257 --> 00:34:24.197
creativity and innovation. Yeah. Talent.
00:34:24.597 --> 00:34:26.897
I mean, that is who we are as people.
00:34:27.497 --> 00:34:32.957
Waymaking. I mean, et cetera, et cetera. Yes. It is a story of empowerment for me.
00:34:33.357 --> 00:34:36.837
And those are the things that I try to focus on.
00:34:36.957 --> 00:34:45.837
In my work, I don't contextualize us through the white gaze and the lens of white supremacy.
00:34:46.477 --> 00:34:48.137
I try to...
00:34:49.105 --> 00:34:52.765
Now, of course, we have to engage with those things because we live in America.
00:34:52.945 --> 00:34:58.685
We have no choice but to engage with those things, especially in a historical context.
00:34:59.165 --> 00:35:05.965
With my work, I aim to focus on the essence of who we are and uplift who we
00:35:05.965 --> 00:35:10.985
are as people, spotlight those things, empower those things.
00:35:11.345 --> 00:35:16.905
And so that is the aim of my work. And so I think that that's more needed now
00:35:16.905 --> 00:35:22.385
than ever. I think that telling the truth can mean a lot of different things
00:35:22.385 --> 00:35:24.905
because it's also about who's truth.
00:35:25.245 --> 00:35:32.625
And me as a person who works in oral history mainly, the truth is many different things.
00:35:32.885 --> 00:35:39.925
And so we have to also be open to that idea of engaging with many different
00:35:39.925 --> 00:35:42.905
truths that may exist at the same time.
00:35:43.085 --> 00:35:49.085
But yeah, I 1000% believe that we can tell the truth. I plan to continue telling
00:35:49.085 --> 00:35:56.625
the truth about history and uplifting those truths. I am committed to focusing on that in my work.
00:35:56.665 --> 00:36:02.265
And I think that that is going to be what I have to do to make it in these next years.
00:36:02.305 --> 00:36:07.545
I have to focus on us as a community, us as a people, and the work that I'm
00:36:07.545 --> 00:36:11.725
committed to doing for the ancestors, for ancestral justice,
00:36:11.725 --> 00:36:15.165
as well as for social justice today.
00:36:15.165 --> 00:36:19.745
And so my answer would be yes, emphatically, yes.
00:36:20.045 --> 00:36:24.825
Many people, including many folks who are going to listen to this episode,
00:36:25.125 --> 00:36:28.425
are wondering what the strategies are and should be.
00:36:28.425 --> 00:36:34.105
And I think that you've just given us several that we could take.
00:36:34.205 --> 00:36:35.865
One is about creating joy.
00:36:36.205 --> 00:36:40.105
Well, let's go back. Even before that, your story really is.
00:36:40.643 --> 00:36:47.303
Emphasizes embracing courage, embracing courage to figure out what really is
00:36:47.303 --> 00:36:51.143
meaningful and matters to you, right? So there's that courage piece.
00:36:51.623 --> 00:36:55.323
There's that, you know, I like to call it living in the perpetual sabbatical
00:36:55.323 --> 00:36:57.803
state and embracing that sensibility piece.
00:36:58.323 --> 00:37:00.723
Then there's also the finding joy.
00:37:01.283 --> 00:37:04.443
It's also dealing with the trauma because you didn't say, well,
00:37:04.543 --> 00:37:08.363
we're just going to pretend it doesn't exist, but it's also recognizing that
00:37:08.363 --> 00:37:11.183
we are more than that, right?
00:37:11.343 --> 00:37:16.883
And so it's cultivating joy and doing that even at the expense of risk.
00:37:17.343 --> 00:37:21.163
You know, sometimes that's physical safety, sometimes that's financial safety
00:37:21.163 --> 00:37:24.143
or professional safety. You know, you talk about the ancestral forces.
00:37:24.343 --> 00:37:28.063
Hey, now you're right in my alley. Now we're here, you know?
00:37:28.503 --> 00:37:33.743
Yeah, you know, I've written about that extensively about the power of connecting
00:37:33.743 --> 00:37:39.283
and communing with ancestral forces who have been down these roads,
00:37:39.303 --> 00:37:43.623
who also give us lessons and insights from which we can certainly learn,
00:37:43.743 --> 00:37:46.463
which is why it's so important to tell these truths.
00:37:46.663 --> 00:37:49.743
And I think that people know that, which is also why they're afraid of it.
00:37:49.903 --> 00:37:55.863
You know, I think that's also very, very relevant to this moment that we're
00:37:55.863 --> 00:37:59.783
in. And so, yeah, I'm really grateful for all of those just gems.
00:38:00.083 --> 00:38:03.543
Black truth and Black empowerment has always been a threat to America.
00:38:04.623 --> 00:38:10.123
And so, but that's why we need to lean into it even more.
00:38:10.403 --> 00:38:14.543
Yeah. And in an ultimate sense, it's because it forces accountability.
00:38:15.523 --> 00:38:21.183
We cannot lie about who it is that we say we as a nation are if we look at,
00:38:21.756 --> 00:38:24.816
at the truth of our histories, right? We cannot lie.
00:38:24.956 --> 00:38:30.136
And if we do, we are fooling ourselves and others who would believe that these
00:38:30.136 --> 00:38:36.136
things didn't happen or existed, or that they're so far back in the past.
00:38:36.256 --> 00:38:37.796
Well, actually, they are not.
00:38:38.276 --> 00:38:42.116
And they are resurfacing. I think that if we are not careful,
00:38:42.676 --> 00:38:47.136
which of course is a worry for me occupying and stewarding a space like the
00:38:47.136 --> 00:38:48.716
Stone Center, If we are not careful,
00:38:48.996 --> 00:38:54.176
these stories will be rewritten in such a way that we are not a part of the
00:38:54.176 --> 00:38:58.356
narrative and we simply cannot allow that to be. Yeah, we cannot.
00:38:58.756 --> 00:39:07.336
And I want to say, too, for people who are strategizing on their plan over the next couple of years,
00:39:07.536 --> 00:39:14.396
for every Black person particularly, part of that plan should be talking to elders in your family,
00:39:14.776 --> 00:39:17.476
elders that you know, interviewing them,
00:39:17.896 --> 00:39:24.416
documenting their stories, and gleaning from the lessons that they will be able to share.
00:39:24.416 --> 00:39:30.156
As a millennial who has studied history, who has, you know, such a respect and
00:39:30.156 --> 00:39:33.316
a deep level of knowledge of our history.
00:39:33.896 --> 00:39:40.136
These are times that are unlike anything that I've seen in my lifetime.
00:39:40.836 --> 00:39:45.856
And so it is scary. You know, I there is something to be said about finding
00:39:45.856 --> 00:39:48.576
that courage. But the fact is, it is scary.
00:39:49.116 --> 00:39:56.776
Yeah. And so I'm not trying to minimize that. But I read about the civil rights
00:39:56.776 --> 00:40:00.116
movement and the planning that took place and heard all the stories from my
00:40:00.116 --> 00:40:01.736
grandparents, et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:01.936 --> 00:40:06.156
But I've never had to jump off the sidewalk for a white person to walk by.
00:40:06.416 --> 00:40:12.936
You know, there are certain things that are unfolding before our eyes that are
00:40:12.936 --> 00:40:17.156
things that we as millennials have never experienced.
00:40:18.296 --> 00:40:19.256
And there.
00:40:19.821 --> 00:40:26.921
We're privileged in that way. But with that privilege also comes the responsibility
00:40:26.921 --> 00:40:30.221
of carrying those lessons of our forebears.
00:40:30.481 --> 00:40:38.361
And now they are going to be relevant to us in a way that we probably haven't even seen yet.
00:40:38.361 --> 00:40:43.861
So I think that a part of that strategic plan should definitely include leaning
00:40:43.861 --> 00:40:49.861
back into the oral history tradition that existed centuries before our ancestors
00:40:49.861 --> 00:40:54.041
even heard of America or Europe or whatever.
00:40:54.441 --> 00:40:58.961
And so that, I think, is going to be a powerful strategy, no matter who you
00:40:58.961 --> 00:41:01.221
are, no matter what it is that you do.
00:41:01.381 --> 00:41:09.041
We need to return to the oral history tradition in a way that helps us strategize
00:41:09.041 --> 00:41:11.841
and arms us for what's to come.
00:41:14.001 --> 00:41:16.901
Strategizing for us to have a better sense of what happened,
00:41:17.241 --> 00:41:18.601
arming us for what's to come.
00:41:18.861 --> 00:41:23.121
That is a great insight.
00:41:23.301 --> 00:41:27.741
And it's really sage insight. You're leaning into your griot sensibility.
00:41:28.001 --> 00:41:32.981
I'm tremendously grateful for it. And I know that listeners will also be.
00:41:33.161 --> 00:41:35.321
Well, I also know that time is precious.
00:41:35.621 --> 00:41:39.301
We can't get it back. And we could go. I mean, we could go on.
00:41:39.521 --> 00:41:45.241
And we have lots of TBDs. We have, you know, some collaborations that we have coming up.
00:41:45.281 --> 00:41:51.801
So I'm really excited about all that is to come for us, but also I'm just so grateful for,
00:41:52.904 --> 00:41:56.884
Again, that courage that you have to lean into that sensibility,
00:41:57.144 --> 00:41:59.524
but not just theoretically, but in practice.
00:41:59.824 --> 00:42:05.004
It's clear to me from what it is that I see, but also that I hear and I'm learning
00:42:05.004 --> 00:42:07.484
from you, that it's not just lip service.
00:42:07.664 --> 00:42:13.244
And I'm grateful for all that you are doing in this world, millennial.
00:42:15.104 --> 00:42:20.384
All that you are doing and bringing in this world, millennial with an old soul, y'all, truly.
00:42:20.844 --> 00:42:25.284
Old soul, yeah, for sure. Yeah, clearly Jaha has been here before, as we would say.
00:42:25.464 --> 00:42:28.944
So I'm really, really grateful for you. I wanted to make sure,
00:42:29.104 --> 00:42:33.104
is there anything else that you want listeners to hear or to know?
00:42:33.284 --> 00:42:36.764
I mean, pick up an instrument, keep with practice of some sort.
00:42:36.984 --> 00:42:40.044
It also seems another strategy to lift up.
00:42:40.124 --> 00:42:43.484
Is there anything else that you want listeners to know about you,
00:42:43.684 --> 00:42:47.664
Jaha, Avery, or anything else that you want to share?
00:42:48.364 --> 00:42:53.164
Coretta Scott King once said, and I'm paraphrasing, that freedom must be fought
00:42:53.164 --> 00:42:55.024
and won by every generation.
00:42:55.803 --> 00:42:59.263
It's our turn, y'all. I mean, that is just the bottom line.
00:43:00.163 --> 00:43:03.223
Our four bears did what they were supposed to do. And
00:43:03.223 --> 00:43:08.863
we are in this moment now where we have to pick up the mantle and we have to
00:43:08.863 --> 00:43:14.503
equip ourselves so that we can do that in a way of where we win the fight for
00:43:14.503 --> 00:43:18.943
our generation and empower the next generation for their fight.
00:43:19.123 --> 00:43:20.803
So it's not going to be over.
00:43:21.103 --> 00:43:24.423
I don't think there's ever going to be an end point per se.
00:43:24.703 --> 00:43:30.163
But again, that's the wisdom of the elders that every generation is going to have their turn.
00:43:30.423 --> 00:43:34.523
And this is it. People are going to know where the episode title now comes from,
00:43:34.583 --> 00:43:37.643
because I never know until I'm in the episode, it's our turn.
00:43:37.823 --> 00:43:40.903
That's a great reminder, but also call to action.
00:43:41.263 --> 00:43:45.423
So thank you so much, Jahaf, for all the great work you do.
00:43:45.763 --> 00:43:50.143
Listeners, this is a good, good one. Because not only are we going through geography
00:43:50.143 --> 00:43:55.083
and biography, but also that strategy, giving folks something to take with them,
00:43:55.143 --> 00:43:57.443
some nourishment, I think is also really key.
00:43:57.963 --> 00:44:00.703
Especially in this time, we need as much sustenance as we can get.
00:44:00.823 --> 00:44:06.503
So thank you for giving us such good, good sustenance and for causing good trouble.