The Policy Paradox: Why More Rules Create Worse Leaders

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Some of you may take this as a surprise, but there may have been one or two policies named after me.
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I'm not surprised.
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The problem is, is so many policies are given a name like the Josh policy, and we write them because Josh screwed up or Josh did something that someone didn't like, and now the rest of the company has to suffer.
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Have you ever seen that?
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Yes, yes.
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I've also seen it in like sports.
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Like all of the sports rules that are written that are Cleveland based are all because we did something horribly stupid.
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So yes, for those of you that are in Cleveland, you know exactly what we're talking about.
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We're going to talk about policy.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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How is Europe?
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It was wonderful that long vacation that I told everybody.
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I would say I took it.
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We had a great time.
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My team didn't need me at all.
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No. Which I mean, when you mentioned that when you came back, you're like, no, they didn't.
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I I'm assuming they were relieved that you were gone.
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They were perfectly happy that I was not there.
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And then they were excited that I came back.
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But they did not.
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They did not call me or need anything.
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That's amazing.
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That's fantastic.
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Yeah.
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It's true.
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That is a testament to the take several weeks and no one like I come back and I'm like, what's going on, Alice?
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She's like, here's like we had a fifteen minute download and like, Julie had like a twenty minute download because she asked like a couple questions about Europe.
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But I mean, that was, that was it.
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Yeah, I like, so how was Europe?
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I mean, was it it was a good vacation.
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It was a good vacation.
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We had a great time.
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I think like at one point in time, I texted my husband who was not with me because I was with our kids and he was doing something else.
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And I'm like, I never have to do this for this long with our children ever again.
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He's like, good.
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Me either.
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So we loved our kids.
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We love our kids.
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We have a great time.
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But like maybe one week at a time, maybe one week, maybe like four days, maybe we don't ever need to take them to like they can take us to Europe.
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But like we just kept saying, like when they would ask about things, I'm like, did you pay for the trip?
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Did you pay?
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Like at one point in time, Caleb's like, why am I sitting here on the airplane?
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I'm like, cause you're going for free.
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So. You don't get to be bougie.
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You have no budget.
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Right, right, right.
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Quote, mow some lawns and come back and we'll talk about it.
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Correct.
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So he's just saying like, how can I fly first class?
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And I'm like, well, first of all, we didn't none of us flew first class, but, you know, go get a job.
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Okay.
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Right.
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So he's like, dad, can you teach me how to trade?
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Because of course, you know, right to a day trader.
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And so he's like, no, not yet.
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Fourteen year old.
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No, you cannot learn how to trade.
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No, that sounds like a that sounds like a bad idea, doesn't it?
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Yeah.
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My kid who can hack his school like system.
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Yeah.
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No, he doesn't need to know how to trade yet.
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No, he definitely does not.
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What have you been up to?
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I mean, you had a giant around.
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I crossed state lines, lots of them.
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And country lines.
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Yeah.
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We, uh, a friend of mine and I, we rode around Lake Erie, which is a cool trip.
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Um, I talked with a lot of people about it and we did it on, on the motorcycles.
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Separate motorcycles.
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Nice.
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Not a bicycle built for two.
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No, no, no. Um, but yeah, no, it was interesting because like I post about it online in a motorcycle group and they're like, man, that had to be a great couple of days.
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And I'm like, no, no, it was one.
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Um, seven hundred and twenty miles.
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I literally pulled out of the driveway at five o'clock on the dot, and I pulled in the driveway at nine forty five p m, and the next day I was completely useless.
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It was a great adventure.
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Um, plenty of great stories from it.
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We like like the four hundred and one across Canada.
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It's flatter than this table.
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And we fought a crosswind for two hours, right?
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Just blowing us all over the road.
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And I'm like, well, this is not fun.
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But once again, it's the stories and it's why we.
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It's why we love it.
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Um, there were no rules made by this ride either, though.
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Oh, nice.
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So there's no new rules.
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Okay.
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There's no new policies.
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We didn't have any international incidents while we were in Europe.
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We may have maybe picked a fight with someone on an airplane, but we were good.
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And all I can go back to is the scene with vegetable lasagna on Seinfeld's.
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When you were mentioning, like, the trip and how you.
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You and Steve were sitting separate?
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Yes.
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I thought of like Elaine and Putty in some cases, like the the three or four times they broke up and got back together on the trip and I thought, I wonder if those arguments are happening on the trip.
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Maybe I love it.
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That being said, we talk all the time.
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Getting back to business.
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Now that you're off vacation, I'm back from my.
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Yeah, consistency is what builds your culture, the model, what you mandate, those types of things.
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I mean, today we're we're going to we're going to flip to the dark side of that because there's so many people that feel culture like they they think they're building culture and all they're doing is they're creating a ginormous war and peace sized dusty binder that like, I feel I always feel bad for the people in HR because they have to lift this thing.
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Yeah.
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Or they have to download it or they have to upload it, right?
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They have to download or upload this.
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And at that point, you just, I mean, you just click the upload button, you go home and then you come back tomorrow and sometime after lunch it's done.
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Um, pretty much we talked before about like emotional reactions and pulling some of the emotional emotion emotionally out of it, pulling some of the emotion out of it.
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Because you and I both know leaders write so many policies as emotional reactions to problems, or they buy that generic templated handbook to cover their assets.
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But then they make the one off exceptions because they want to be nice, or they see a quicker way around it.
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And they just.
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So yeah, we're we're going to cover like a policy with exceptions isn't a policy.
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It's a suggestion.
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We're going to cover some of this today.
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And I feel it's so important because so many people have this rule book I'm going to talk about like how they need to just, I don't want to say light it on fire, but they need to, they need to go through their rule book with a paper with a shredder handy.
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Yeah.
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Um, because that don't burn the whole thing.
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There is good stuff.
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There's stuff that you have to have.
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Correct.
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Like the, the, the thing that I like here is we like my notes say we've got a dusty fifty page handbook.
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That's nothing.
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I feel like that's the introduction.
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Yes, that's the foreword.
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Uh, that's the who we are.
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Correct?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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That was built by marketing.
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Yes.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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The Vic who we are and why you should care, which we know you're going to ignore because it's fifty pages.
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It's in a forgotten Google Drive folder.
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It's in the drawer.
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Uh, it is part of what I like to call in the office, the dust collection system, because it hasn't moved in so long.
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CEOs and HR departments in so many cases, like take this thing so seriously.
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And they draft this with all the the love and care of like Stephen King writing a novel.
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Yes.
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Markedly less interesting.
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Um, they put it out there into the world and by day two it is completely ignored.
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Why?
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Why?
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Why does this happen?
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Well, I think there's a lot of reasons, but I think the first is, you know, a lot of times handbooks are written from fear and they're not written from leadership.
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You know, someone did something ridiculous one time, and instead of having a direct conversation with that person, the company now writes a policy for everyone.
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I am surprised you didn't look at me square in the eyes.
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And I know you're reading that.
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That's true.
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You you are the guilty party.
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I mean, but that's why you wind up with that fifty page handbook that reads like it was written by a lawyer, one very tired HR person in a conference room.
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It's also why I think large corporate.
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It's not.
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I think it's why it's why large corporations usually have a significant handbook, because they've had a lot of people that have done those one off policies that have given them those one off lawsuits.
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And now they're like, we have we have a five hundred page handbook.
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Um, but listen, and I will tell you, I mean, I'm running HR company.
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You like documentation, I love documentation, I love a good handbook.
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I mean, I do.
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Is that what you read at night?
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Yes I do.
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I'll read handbooks.
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I mean, I believe in policies, I believe in documentation.
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I believe in clarity.
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So the problem though, is when we confuse having the handbook with actually leading.
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Oh yeah.
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So I mean, the handbook should not be a juncture for every bad thing that has ever happened in an organization as it relates to people.
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All right.
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We need a diary.
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No, it's not a diary.
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It's not a it's not a disaster log.
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Okay.
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So we have three P's for handbook purpose practice and protection.
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Ooh, I like those.
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Yeah.
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So first piece that comes in is purpose.
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And when we talk about purpose, we're talking about the policy.
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So like why does the policy exist?
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What is the purpose.
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All right.
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Is it protecting people?
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Is it creating fairness?
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Is it helping those managers make consistent decisions?
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Is it helping employees understand expectations?
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Or did we write it because Bob abused the PTO policy in twenty seventeen and now everyone is being punished until the end of time?
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So that's the trap.
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First is purpose.
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Damn it, Bob, I know that's it.
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So we've got purpose and then comes practice.
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And so if the policy says one thing but leaders do another.
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The policy is dead on arrival, right?
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Employees do not follow the handbook.
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They follow what leadership tolerates one hundred percent.
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And you said it at the beginning of the podcast, and we say it all the time.
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We model what we mandate.
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So as the head of the organization, as the CEO, as the business leader, as the manager, follow your freaking handbook.
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All right.
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As the manager, I love how angry you get about this because this is this is ninety percent of the problems that we get called in on.
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Josh on the HR side are because people did not follow the policy that they created.
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It's not because they didn't have a policy, it's because they didn't follow the policy.
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I get it.
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So I mean, I'm just trying I'm trying to save you money.
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All right.
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So as the manager, when someone comes to you, part of your job is knowing what the guardrails are and employees like guardrails.
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So what does the handbook say about this and how do we make sure we're being what we want to see in the organization?
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That's the key.
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So we're going to practice it.
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We model what we mandate.
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So we have the purpose.
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Why do we have this policy?
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We practice it.
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We do the things that we're supposed to do.
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And then finally this is protection.
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And this is really more about the policy.
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And a good policy should protect the business and it should also protect the employee.
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And it should create, I know, dare I say clarity and not confusion.
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We've got fairness.
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We're not creating fear.
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We're giving clear expectations for everyone.
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No one should fear the handbook either.
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Like it's not.
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Yeah, I feel there are times that people are like, oh my gosh, what's that?
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When the handbook comes, when they see the handbook come out, you almost you hear the the you feel the room darken.
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Yes.
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And then then you hear the ominous music start to play in the background.
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Well, it is, and I think the problem with these giant handbooks, especially, is that employees don't see them as helpful.
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They experience them as something they sign once during their onboarding and never saw again until someone gets in trouble.
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So like when you see the handbook, you're like, oh, this is bad.
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So I mean, and if the only time people hear about a policy is when it's being used against them, don't be shocked when they don't trust it, when they're like, oh, I don't want to talk about the handbook.
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I'm not gonna do that.
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I mean, I'm, I know, I don't, I don't trust things if I don't hear about them regularly.
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So policy should be living tools, not dusty documents.
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And if your handbook only comes out when someone is in trouble, it's not culture, it's evidence.
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Oh it's funny.
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Like the, the handbook thing is, uh, I have this visual in my head of it being like, kind of, like you said, being used as a weapon.
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Yeah.
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And it's literally the cartoon that comes up in my head is someone getting walloped upside the head with a handbook instead of a phone book.
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Yeah.
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And it just the anvil that we're throwing at people.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Someone's just grabbed.
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I mean, they grab onto it with both hands and just swing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That it's just not the right way to go.
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No, we talk like we talked in the nice leader trap about how dangerous it is to want to be liked.
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Yes, the good old Michael Scott syndrome want them to love me.
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I want everyone to be afraid of how much they love me.
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No. How?
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Like, how does a leader's habit of making the you know, just this once exception to the HR policy.
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Like, how does that completely rot the team's sense of psychological safety?
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Fairness.
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I mean, we've shot consistency at this point.
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Yeah.
00:13:54.940 --> 00:14:02.240
So it's where the nice leader becomes dangerous because just this once almost never stays just once ever.
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.940
And, and leaders do this with good intentions because we want to be kind.
00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:07.406
They want to be flexible.
00:14:07.406 --> 00:14:08.173
They want someone.
00:14:08.173 --> 00:14:09.139
They want to help someone out.
00:14:09.139 --> 00:14:11.972
You know, it's just I just feel bad for this person.
00:14:11.972 --> 00:14:20.139
But if the exception is not thoughtful, documented and available under the same criteria to others, it's going to start to feel like favoritism.
00:14:20.139 --> 00:14:22.906
And it starts to feel like favoritism because it is.
00:14:22.906 --> 00:14:24.340
And that's an inequity tax.
00:14:24.340 --> 00:14:30.039
So if your team starts asking why did they get that exception?
00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:31.740
Why was I told no?
00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:32.840
You know, and then there's the other one.
00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:36.072
Like why does this rule apply to me but not them?
00:14:36.072 --> 00:14:46.173
I mean, heaven help you if you're making those exceptions for the brilliant jerk like you just I mean, you might as well just, you know, pave the way for everybody to leave you.
00:14:46.173 --> 00:14:50.273
I mean, and we've unlocked the door, locked the door for you.
00:14:50.273 --> 00:14:51.173
Just run.
00:14:51.173 --> 00:14:56.639
I mean, and once employees believe that the rules are subjective, psychological safety is going to start to crack.
00:15:53.860 --> 00:16:00.093
And so again, as a definition of psychological safety means people understand what to expect.
00:16:00.093 --> 00:16:01.993
It doesn't mean that there are no rules.
00:16:01.993 --> 00:16:04.160
It means that rules are fair, they're predictable.
00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:05.725
And again, they're applied consistently.
00:16:05.725 --> 00:16:12.725
And so we have the ability to speak up in an organization when we have an issue arise, or even when we don't think the rules are being applied evenly.
00:16:12.725 --> 00:16:16.660
So let's go back to purpose, practice and protection, right?
00:16:16.660 --> 00:16:21.360
If the purpose of the policy is fairness, but the practice is favoritism.
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.360
The protection disappears.
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:23.926
Yes.
00:16:23.926 --> 00:16:24.759
Yeah.
00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:33.926
So that's where your high performers and your quiet superstars are going to start quietly checking out, not because they need everything to be perfect, but because they can see the inconsistency.
00:16:33.926 --> 00:16:38.826
Reliable people hate inconsistent leadership.
00:16:38.826 --> 00:16:40.225
You know what I'm going to say?
00:16:40.225 --> 00:16:40.460
Yep.
00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:40.926
Go ahead.
00:16:40.926 --> 00:16:44.493
If I'm walking into a shitstorm, I want to know which way the wind is blowing.
00:16:44.493 --> 00:16:44.826
Yes.
00:16:44.826 --> 00:16:48.426
If I have no idea which way the wind is blowing, I am leaving the shitstorm.
00:16:48.426 --> 00:16:49.026
Yes.
00:16:49.026 --> 00:16:52.460
And nothing makes a strong employee lose trust faster than watching leadership.
00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:57.626
Bend the rules for a favorite, a star performer, or the person they're afraid to confront.
00:16:57.626 --> 00:16:58.293
Right.
00:16:58.293 --> 00:17:01.360
And this is where leaders can fuse that flexibility with inconsistency.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.625
Flexibility says we have a clear process for exceptions.
00:17:05.625 --> 00:17:11.460
Inconsistency says, well, it depends on who you ask, what mood I'm in and whether I want to deal with conflict today or not.
00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:11.960
Right.
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:13.893
Those are not the same thing.
00:17:13.893 --> 00:17:16.925
If you don't like the answer mom gives, go ask dad.
00:17:16.925 --> 00:17:25.725
Go ask dad and I will tell you this if you want, as a manager, if you want to be like so badly that you stop enforcing standards, you're not being kind, you're creating confusion.
00:17:25.725 --> 00:17:28.692
So get over yourself, all right?
00:17:28.692 --> 00:17:32.992
Your decision making when it comes to making exceptions, should not have to be ready by your team.
00:17:32.992 --> 00:17:35.593
They shouldn't have to read it like a weather pattern.
00:17:35.593 --> 00:17:36.292
All right.
00:17:36.292 --> 00:17:37.893
Favoritism is flexibility.
00:17:37.893 --> 00:17:39.992
Without fairness.
00:17:39.992 --> 00:17:43.826
I have to say this just because it's me.
00:17:43.826 --> 00:17:44.960
The get over yourself.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:45.526
Yes.
00:17:45.526 --> 00:17:46.692
No one likes you anyways.
00:17:46.692 --> 00:17:48.660
I know you know what I mean.
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:49.826
It's right.
00:17:49.826 --> 00:17:52.359
But so many bosses, they're like, I want to be liked.
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:53.792
No, they don't like you anyways.
00:17:53.792 --> 00:17:55.160
No, they really don't know.
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:55.893
They really don't.
00:17:55.893 --> 00:17:59.093
And even if they do like you, they're not going to like you the way that you want to be liked.
00:17:59.093 --> 00:18:00.492
So just stop it.
00:18:00.492 --> 00:18:01.059
Correct.
00:18:01.059 --> 00:18:03.792
Go make friends somewhere else.
00:18:03.792 --> 00:18:04.460
At least try.
00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:05.292
At least try.
00:18:05.292 --> 00:18:07.492
I mean, this is not you are not going to make friends.
00:18:07.492 --> 00:18:09.059
You don't make friends with your subordinates.
00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:10.460
It is a different dynamic.
00:18:10.460 --> 00:18:14.225
And if you got promoted, be prepared to make that dynamic change.
00:18:14.225 --> 00:18:30.059
We've talked about this before a few times, a few times from the strategic and legal standpoint on this, those unenforced policies that are on the books, but not necessarily, like I said, enforced.
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:35.425
Do those create more liability for a business than having no policy at all?
00:18:35.425 --> 00:18:36.460
Yeah.
00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:41.059
Like how it's expensive really.
00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:43.425
I'm assuming in a legal sense, you said it gets expensive.
00:18:43.425 --> 00:18:46.026
It does, because written policies create expectations.
00:18:46.026 --> 00:18:52.793
When you write something down, you are telling employees, regulators, attorneys, and anyone else who may review your practices.
00:18:52.793 --> 00:18:54.793
This is how we operate.
00:18:54.793 --> 00:19:00.593
So if your handbook says one thing, but your actual behavior says another, now you have a gap.
00:19:00.593 --> 00:19:02.326
And that gap is where risk lives.
00:19:02.326 --> 00:19:04.559
This is where your insurance, your employee practices, liability.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.125
People are like, woo hoo! This is why we have a job.
00:19:07.125 --> 00:19:12.125
So this is why I can say, you know, policies are a double edged sword.
00:19:12.125 --> 00:19:12.992
It's exactly right.
00:19:12.992 --> 00:19:14.360
They're like, whew, this is me.
00:19:14.360 --> 00:19:17.826
So a clear enforce policy is protection.
00:19:17.826 --> 00:19:20.826
A written ignored policy is exposure.
00:19:20.826 --> 00:19:32.293
So for example, if your policy says overtime has to be approved in writing, but managers routinely allow people to work unapproved overtime and never correct it.
00:19:32.293 --> 00:19:39.793
You may have created a past practice, but in plain English, your real policy is becoming what you actually allow, not what your handbook says.
00:19:39.793 --> 00:19:44.625
Because oftentimes when we're dealing with an employee issue and it's like they call us in.
00:19:44.625 --> 00:19:45.625
Well, what does your handbook say?
00:19:45.625 --> 00:19:47.259
Well, it says this, but this is what we did.
00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:49.160
We're like, okay, what do you normally do?
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.192
Oh, well, we normally do what we don't want to do anymore.
00:19:52.192 --> 00:19:53.393
It's like, okay, well.
00:19:55.425 --> 00:19:58.425
For an HR person, that is terrifying.
00:19:58.425 --> 00:19:59.192
Oh my gosh.
00:19:59.192 --> 00:19:59.393
Yeah.
00:19:59.393 --> 00:20:02.259
Because, I mean, this is where those HR people start drinking more coffee.
00:20:02.259 --> 00:20:13.893
They start blinking a lot when they're dealing with some of these issues, because it doesn't matter how good your HR department is, when your leadership is inconsistency, it voids all of your policies.
00:20:13.893 --> 00:20:17.826
And that's why we got to go back to practice purpose and intention.
00:20:17.826 --> 00:20:25.226
So this is why practice matters just as much as purpose, because you cannot write your way into compliance if you lead your way into consistency.
00:20:25.226 --> 00:20:25.860
Yep.
00:20:25.860 --> 00:20:27.259
You don't lead your way out.
00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:28.226
No. Does that make sense?
00:20:28.226 --> 00:20:31.726
No. You can't write your way into compliance if you don't lead your way into consistency.
00:20:31.726 --> 00:20:32.326
I love that.
00:20:32.326 --> 00:20:33.026
Yeah.
00:20:33.026 --> 00:20:41.093
And from a strategic standpoint, you've got those unenforced policies, those damage your culture all the time because employees start to learn that the handbook is fake.
00:20:41.093 --> 00:20:42.160
The rules are negotiable.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.660
Oh, well, you know, there's that document, but we never follow.
00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:48.826
I signed it, but does it really matter because we don't follow the PTO plan.
00:20:48.826 --> 00:20:50.360
We don't follow the overtime rules.
00:20:50.360 --> 00:20:55.326
We don't follow the the exceptions for, you know, I mean, we have a no shorts policy.
00:20:55.326 --> 00:20:58.259
But, you know, Janet wears like shorts all the time.
00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:00.759
Like what we have, we're supposed to wear closed toed shoes.
00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.360
But you know, Bob wears flip flops.
00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:04.559
I mean, so the handbook becomes the doorstop.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.360
It's not something that we're actually using.
00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:07.826
And that's bad for morale.
00:21:07.826 --> 00:21:14.093
It's bad for accountability, and it's bad for legal defensibility That's the one that I think is going to shock a lot of people.
00:21:14.093 --> 00:21:19.026
Is that the same book that you think is covering your butt can be the thing that exposes your butt?
00:21:19.026 --> 00:21:19.992
Well, it absolutely can.
00:21:19.992 --> 00:21:25.692
So before you add another policy, because I know that's the other part is you're like, oh crap, I just need to add some more policies and everything will be better.
00:21:25.692 --> 00:21:29.125
No. Here are things I want you to ask yourself before you like.
00:21:29.125 --> 00:21:31.125
Go to start adding another policy.
00:21:31.125 --> 00:21:34.793
Number one is are we actually willing to enforce this?
00:21:34.793 --> 00:21:44.093
So if I say I have a zero tolerance on people on their cell phones during the day when they're working on the employee shop floor, do I really?
00:21:44.093 --> 00:21:45.593
Are we sure?
00:21:45.593 --> 00:21:48.326
Because your best worker may be like, just make sure.
00:21:48.326 --> 00:21:50.026
I mean, are you going to enforce it?
00:21:50.026 --> 00:21:50.660
All right.
00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:52.925
Can our managers explain it?
00:21:52.925 --> 00:21:54.293
That's a big one.
00:21:54.293 --> 00:21:54.759
Oh, huge.
00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:59.759
If you can't talk about it and you can't explain why this policy exists, you may have a problem.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.125
The next one is, you know, can our managers explain it?
00:22:02.125 --> 00:22:04.226
But then can our employees actually follow it?
00:22:05.393 --> 00:22:06.226
Is that possible?
00:22:06.226 --> 00:22:12.526
And then after that, it's does it protect the business without Push, punishing the ninety nine percent of people who are doing everything right.
00:22:12.526 --> 00:22:17.026
And if the answer is no to any of those questions, don't write it yet.
00:22:17.026 --> 00:22:18.526
Take a break.
00:22:18.526 --> 00:22:21.593
Because a policy you won't enforce is not protection.
00:22:21.593 --> 00:22:23.925
It's pretend protection.
00:22:23.925 --> 00:22:24.992
We can't.
00:22:24.992 --> 00:22:29.226
We can't write our way into compliance if we're not going to lead our way into consistency again.
00:22:29.226 --> 00:22:35.125
We have to make sure that we're we're leading our way into compliance and we're leading into consistency.
00:22:35.125 --> 00:22:38.460
I want to go back to the managers explain it thing.
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:38.960
Oh, gosh.
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:39.259
Yeah.
00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:54.393
Because you and I have talked about this, like the way our personalities are, if there is a rule and we understand why the rule is in place and why, like why that exists, you and I will follow that.
00:22:54.393 --> 00:22:56.192
Like it's a commandment, correct?
00:22:56.192 --> 00:22:58.393
It may as well be in stone.
00:22:58.393 --> 00:23:01.526
This is I will live and die by this rule.
00:23:01.526 --> 00:23:02.125
Yes.
00:23:02.125 --> 00:23:09.026
If you don't explain it to me and you just tell me that this is a rule, and I think it's baloney feathers.
00:23:09.026 --> 00:23:10.625
I will treat it as such.
00:23:10.625 --> 00:23:11.793
Exactly.
00:23:11.793 --> 00:23:12.992
Exactly.
00:23:12.992 --> 00:23:14.526
And if you act like it.
00:23:14.526 --> 00:23:16.526
Like if you don't pay attention to that rule.
00:23:16.526 --> 00:23:17.992
I'm not paying attention to that.
00:23:17.992 --> 00:23:25.893
No, no. So if you tell me that we, we we have a strict rule that we end work every day at five p m but everybody's working till seven.
00:23:25.893 --> 00:23:26.960
I'm working till seven.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:31.160
Like you've got to make sure that you've got explanations as to why.
00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:32.259
Why don't we push this button?
00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:33.026
Why don't we do this?
00:23:33.026 --> 00:23:33.860
Why don't we wear this?
00:23:33.860 --> 00:23:34.293
Why don't we?
00:23:34.293 --> 00:23:44.093
I mean, like, it's I realize that there are times as a manager, you may feel like you're parenting a toddler because why, why, why, why it's important to be able to explain it.
00:23:44.093 --> 00:23:47.360
It's funny because I said so doesn't work when you said to wear this.
00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:47.526
Yeah.
00:23:47.526 --> 00:23:51.793
I mean, it goes back to the the episode about Casual Friday that The Office did.
00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:57.793
Like every piece of clothing in there is the reason why there's a dress code.
00:23:57.793 --> 00:23:58.860
Yeah.
00:23:58.860 --> 00:23:59.360
That's it.
00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:11.559
And I know I will tell you, I mean, from, from a perspective with a UI, we had the longest dress code ever for the longest time and it was so stupid, but it was because so many people had done so many things and were like, what?
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.360
And so finally it was just like, please dress appropriately.
00:24:14.360 --> 00:24:16.226
If you need a definition, please ask us.
00:24:16.226 --> 00:24:19.093
But like, please dress appropriately for the season.
00:24:19.093 --> 00:24:19.492
Yeah.
00:24:19.492 --> 00:24:23.492
And you'd see the like people coming in and flip flops.
00:24:23.492 --> 00:24:26.492
And I do not want to see that or not wearing shoes at all.
00:24:26.492 --> 00:24:32.093
Like there's other, I mean, we've had organizations that we've had to work with and had the conversations with employees are like, you have to wear shoes.
00:24:32.093 --> 00:24:33.759
Well, it's not in my handbook.
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.460
You have to wear shoes just in general from a health and safety perspective.
00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:37.925
It doesn't.
00:24:37.925 --> 00:24:46.125
I understand that you may not think you need to wear shoes, but I'm telling you that different states in the union mandate that you wear shoes to work.
00:24:46.125 --> 00:24:47.726
You have to wear shoes.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:49.860
Thank you.
00:24:51.226 --> 00:24:52.559
So yeah.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.259
So, Josh, I know you hate operational bloat.
00:24:56.259 --> 00:24:56.826
Yes.
00:24:56.826 --> 00:24:58.160
You love lean machines.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.625
So how do we operationalize this?
00:25:00.625 --> 00:25:10.093
How does a leader audit their existing rules, prune the dead ones and build accountability and a system that actually sticks without micromanaging people or going insane themselves.
00:25:12.992 --> 00:25:14.226
Well, the insanity part.
00:25:14.226 --> 00:25:15.293
I've got bad news.
00:25:15.293 --> 00:25:16.593
You're kind of late.
00:25:16.593 --> 00:25:18.393
There you are.
00:25:18.393 --> 00:25:19.992
A little bit late.
00:25:19.992 --> 00:25:22.160
Like, probably like thirty years later.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.492
But as you're gonna, you're gonna take a weed eater to somebody's handbook.
00:25:24.492 --> 00:25:25.526
What are you gonna do with it?
00:25:25.526 --> 00:25:26.393
One hundred percent.
00:25:26.393 --> 00:25:30.593
So to me, like, get out the pruners, get out the big pruners.
00:25:30.593 --> 00:25:39.226
To me, one of the things that I like so many people, they have a tough time differentiating between what's an SOP and what's a rule.
00:25:39.226 --> 00:25:39.893
Yes.
00:25:39.893 --> 00:25:41.026
Oh, you're so right.
00:25:41.026 --> 00:25:45.759
Because they think they're kind of interchangeable and they are very much not.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.026
The SOP is like how we get it done.
00:25:49.026 --> 00:25:49.660
Mhm.
00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:54.925
The the rules are just do this or you're outside of the boundaries.
00:25:54.925 --> 00:25:55.660
Yes.
00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:57.226
Very different things.
00:25:57.226 --> 00:26:02.226
The thing that so many people fall into is what I like to call the cop trap.
00:26:02.226 --> 00:26:15.192
Oh, Yes, people rely on the rulebook to create culture and dictate behavior, and you force managers to act like cops and treat every employee like a suspect the whole time.
00:26:15.192 --> 00:26:15.559
Oh gosh.
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:16.259
Yeah.
00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:23.660
Like they walk around like I've seen, I've worked at places where they're walking around trying to catch you doing something wrong.
00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:24.026
Yes.
00:26:24.026 --> 00:26:26.059
Or referee with a whistle?
00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:26.826
Yes.
00:26:26.826 --> 00:26:27.793
I'm a red card.
00:26:27.793 --> 00:26:28.192
I'm.
00:26:28.192 --> 00:26:30.059
I'm one of your top salesmen.
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:31.759
Why are you concerned?
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:36.259
Like, why are you looking to make sure that my phone stats are up to par.
00:26:36.259 --> 00:26:38.826
I'm your like, I'm hitting the numbers.
00:26:38.826 --> 00:26:39.660
I'm.
00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:42.160
I'm far exceeding like the bell curve.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.192
I'm over way over here on the right hand side of this.
00:26:45.192 --> 00:26:51.192
Like, why are you concerned that my phone time is just a little bit less than some others?
00:26:51.192 --> 00:26:51.925
I'm efficient.
00:26:51.925 --> 00:26:53.059
Right?
00:26:53.059 --> 00:26:56.793
I mean, when you have that, you have zero psychological safety.
00:26:56.793 --> 00:27:01.192
No one is going to come to you about anything because you're the cop.
00:27:01.192 --> 00:27:03.860
I mean, unless you're in stranger danger.
00:27:03.860 --> 00:27:04.692
Yeah.
00:27:04.692 --> 00:27:06.026
No one's coming to you.
00:27:06.026 --> 00:27:18.625
No, no. I mean, if the in so many cases, I have been in companies where you walk around and you can tell the culture is.
00:27:18.625 --> 00:27:20.093
Snitches get stitches.
00:27:20.093 --> 00:27:20.625
Yes.
00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:24.393
I've seen those organizations too.
00:27:24.393 --> 00:27:25.826
I've seen this.
00:27:25.826 --> 00:27:32.625
So to me, it's looking at SOPs as enablement rather than rules for enforcement.
00:27:32.625 --> 00:27:34.293
So that that's the first thing.
00:27:34.293 --> 00:27:41.226
And that's you have to make that differentiation there to say, this is an SOP or this is a rule or policy.
00:27:41.226 --> 00:27:44.826
The SOPs are designed to enable the team to succeed.
00:27:44.826 --> 00:27:46.860
Show them the runway.
00:27:46.860 --> 00:27:51.360
A rule by definition is designed to catch them failing.
00:27:51.360 --> 00:27:52.860
Mhm.
00:27:52.860 --> 00:27:55.625
The rule that I want to talk about here is speed limits.
00:27:56.992 --> 00:28:00.492
Everyone in many cases, like when you're driving.
00:28:00.492 --> 00:28:06.526
There's people that I pass on the freeway that are doing fifty miles an hour, and they are not safe drivers, even at fifty miles an hour.
00:28:06.526 --> 00:28:12.960
Yeah, there is times where I have done maybe slightly more than the posted speed limit, and I am still very safe.
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.093
Once again, that is a rule.
00:28:15.093 --> 00:28:19.326
Instead of the like, hey, look, we could probably have an SOP for this.
00:28:19.326 --> 00:28:20.460
Mhm.
00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:22.460
You're talking about somebody who just came from the Audubon.
00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:23.692
I'm totally right.
00:28:23.692 --> 00:28:24.925
Let's talk about speed limits.
00:28:24.925 --> 00:28:25.425
Right.
00:28:25.425 --> 00:28:27.559
Exactly, exactly.
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.026
I only ride like that sometimes.
00:28:30.026 --> 00:28:34.360
So to me, like an SOP is the map while the rule is barricades.
00:28:34.360 --> 00:28:44.259
So the SOP is going to provide the how to that's going to give your team that confidence to execute things and give them the ability to do with speed and precision.
00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:45.860
It's that clear runway.
00:28:45.860 --> 00:28:47.492
It is the guardrails.
00:28:47.492 --> 00:28:50.692
It is not the it is not the speed limit.
00:28:50.692 --> 00:28:51.826
It is not the.
00:28:51.826 --> 00:28:53.293
Like the helicopter overhead.
00:28:53.293 --> 00:28:55.860
It is not a cop every fifty feet.
00:28:55.860 --> 00:29:00.093
It is guardrails saying, here's the lane that we need to stay in.
00:29:00.093 --> 00:29:04.992
A rule in so many cases, and I know you've seen this is the reactive fix.
00:29:04.992 --> 00:29:07.860
We had a speed bump once and so.
00:29:07.860 --> 00:29:10.026
Or we had an issue once.
00:29:10.026 --> 00:29:13.559
And we want everyone to slow down because we had this one issue one time.
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:16.526
So we installed this giant speed hump.
00:29:16.526 --> 00:29:27.960
And if you don't know what speed humps are, you need to look them up on YouTube because they are hilarious to see cars going down streets at fifty miles an hour, hitting a speed hump and going over them like the Dukes of Hazzard.
00:29:28.992 --> 00:29:29.692
Yep.
00:29:29.692 --> 00:29:31.692
Don't do that to your employees.
00:29:31.692 --> 00:29:35.759
Don't take the guy that's got his brand new Corvette that's just going to drive down the street.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.326
He may be going a little fast.
00:29:37.326 --> 00:29:39.026
Don't make him jump his Corvette.
00:29:39.026 --> 00:29:40.393
No. And you've got to tell them why.
00:29:40.393 --> 00:29:46.559
If you're going to do anything one hundred percent, don't secretly do it.
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:48.526
Don't put up enough signs.
00:29:48.526 --> 00:29:51.526
Give people some warnings with that.
00:29:51.526 --> 00:29:53.393
When you rely too heavily on the rules.
00:29:53.393 --> 00:29:59.759
The thing that I always like to see with this is you turn the workplace into an obstacle course where everyone's walking around.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:02.960
I mean, what was the, uh, was it Wipeout?
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.992
What was that show?
00:30:04.992 --> 00:30:05.860
Wipeout.
00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:18.925
I mean, you've, you've now, now you've turned your process into Wipeout where they're just trying to avoid the spinny thing that's going to knock him into the water instead of making it a smooth runway where they're like, hey, if I just took two steps over here, I'm able to do this.
00:30:18.925 --> 00:30:38.460
But they've got to have the guidelines to be able to do that, to build that high performance culture, you have to stop policing behavior and start enabling, like convert those restrictive, restrictive, thou shalt not yes into clear and empowering.
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.992
Here's how.
00:30:39.992 --> 00:30:40.259
Yes.
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:42.460
Once again here and give that.
00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:44.425
Here's how limits.
00:30:44.425 --> 00:30:45.992
But it's a. Here's how it's.
00:30:45.992 --> 00:30:49.125
Here's the direction we'd like to go with that.
00:30:49.125 --> 00:30:55.593
You're going to get that movement in unison is what I like to call it is when you build a culture where everyone's moving in in unison.
00:30:55.593 --> 00:30:58.393
There's this clear, logical.
00:30:58.393 --> 00:31:00.425
There's these shared SOPs.
00:31:00.425 --> 00:31:02.826
Everyone knows what they are.
00:31:02.826 --> 00:31:06.059
It's not a bunch of rules.
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:08.726
It's not like it's not the.
00:31:08.726 --> 00:31:10.393
It's not the police.
00:31:10.393 --> 00:31:12.460
It's definitely not the police.
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:18.893
The example I like to give about this too, is I played soccer thirty years ago.
00:31:18.893 --> 00:31:21.360
Um, World Cup just ended recently.
00:31:21.360 --> 00:31:30.226
And like the number of like, if you watch soccer and the premise of soccer ball and goal, no hands except for the dude.
00:31:30.226 --> 00:31:31.360
Yes.
00:31:31.360 --> 00:31:32.860
That's really simple.
00:31:32.860 --> 00:31:34.192
Correct.
00:31:34.192 --> 00:31:35.425
Look at all the rules now.
00:31:35.425 --> 00:31:36.393
Oh my gosh.
00:31:36.393 --> 00:31:36.826
Right.
00:31:36.826 --> 00:31:37.425
Yes.
00:31:37.425 --> 00:31:41.393
This is and this isn't and this is whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
00:31:41.393 --> 00:31:42.960
Put ball in goal.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:44.393
No hands except for the dude.
00:31:44.393 --> 00:31:44.492
Yeah.
00:31:44.492 --> 00:31:46.192
And half the time, they don't even know what the rules are.
00:31:46.192 --> 00:31:47.093
Correct.
00:31:47.093 --> 00:31:48.093
Uh, unknown.
00:31:48.093 --> 00:31:48.460
Unwritten.
00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:49.160
We just made that up.
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:50.393
Rule, right.
00:31:50.393 --> 00:31:51.526
Like what?
00:31:51.526 --> 00:31:51.960
This.
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.726
I mean, the rulebook should not be that thick, but it is.
00:31:55.726 --> 00:31:57.492
Put ball in goal.
00:31:57.492 --> 00:32:01.660
No hands except for the dude that like that is your SOP.
00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:03.125
Yes, that is how that happens.
00:32:03.125 --> 00:32:14.625
And once again, as you do that, you'll see the teams start to work together towards that instead of it just being the one dude that is trying to do the one thing.
00:32:14.625 --> 00:32:22.460
Having a good culture around this prevents the issues and it it, I guess I don't want to say it polices it.
00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:25.893
It prevents those issues because everyone's moving in the same direction.
00:32:25.893 --> 00:32:26.893
Yes.
00:32:26.893 --> 00:32:31.425
If you've just got a bunch of rules, people are going to do what they can to work around that.
00:32:31.425 --> 00:32:36.925
Yeah, I was as a as a teenager, I was supposed to be off the phone at ten o'clock.
00:32:39.526 --> 00:32:41.093
Ask my parents how that worked.
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:46.093
Right.
00:32:46.093 --> 00:32:48.326
I mean, people are gonna find ways around it.
00:32:48.326 --> 00:32:50.625
So if you get them to move in unison.
00:32:50.625 --> 00:32:50.925
Yes.
00:32:50.925 --> 00:32:56.293
Now you've got something that's going to work other than like, like I was a handful.
00:32:57.360 --> 00:33:00.160
Like trying to police me was not an easy job.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:05.393
The fact that my parents are eighty one and still have any sanity left is just a tribute to their resiliency.
00:33:06.793 --> 00:33:08.093
Yeah, I would say so.
00:33:08.093 --> 00:33:09.759
Right, right.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:12.660
We've only worked together for a couple of years and I'm wearing on yours.
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:13.726
Yeah, I was a joy.
00:33:13.726 --> 00:33:15.860
I did all the things I was supposed to do all the time.
00:33:15.860 --> 00:33:17.093
I was that kid, so.
00:33:17.093 --> 00:33:17.460
Right.
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:17.726
Yeah.
00:33:17.726 --> 00:33:19.526
No, I may not have been.
00:33:19.526 --> 00:33:21.759
So to me, I never got in trouble.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:22.026
Trouble?
00:33:22.026 --> 00:33:22.992
I got in mischief.
00:33:22.992 --> 00:33:23.692
A lot of mischief.
00:33:23.692 --> 00:33:24.759
A lot of mischief is.
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:27.026
But once again, it's trying to police that.
00:33:27.026 --> 00:33:33.460
Whereas if there's a culture where you're where you have everyone moving towards that common goal, it becomes so much easier.
00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:36.992
So now how do we decide between the rule and the SOP?
00:33:36.992 --> 00:33:40.793
First one you touched on this is this actually procedural?
00:33:40.793 --> 00:33:45.893
Is this a procedural runway that enables velocity, or is this just a restrictive speed bump?
00:33:45.893 --> 00:33:49.593
Is this just a hey, we need to narrow this down through this funnel.
00:33:49.593 --> 00:33:51.726
Is this an administrative constraint?
00:33:51.726 --> 00:33:55.660
I mean, do you need to like once again, do you need to hire more cops for this purpose?
00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:55.960
Yeah.
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:56.393
Right.
00:33:56.393 --> 00:34:00.460
Like if you need to hire more cops for it, then it's probably not procedural.
00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:04.625
It's a rule if it will work within the flow of things.
00:34:04.625 --> 00:34:08.726
If it works to contribute to the flow of things, then it's an SOP.
00:34:08.726 --> 00:34:12.559
No, sandals is not an SOP.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:16.125
No, that's a rule, right?
00:34:16.125 --> 00:34:20.192
The fact that we said that in unison just shows that culturally we think alike.
00:34:20.192 --> 00:34:20.625
Chrissy.
00:34:20.625 --> 00:34:22.592
And again, you must wear shoes to work.
00:34:22.592 --> 00:34:24.425
I'm just going to keep harping on that.
00:34:27.759 --> 00:34:31.726
The other thing is, is do we know why this rule is here?
00:35:09.056 --> 00:35:12.655
I call this and once again we're picking on Bob the Bob test.
00:35:12.655 --> 00:35:17.690
I love this Bob didn't do the three the thing three times so we made it a rule.
00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:28.422
This does not work because once again you now have to police this, making it a company wide rule because one person failed to execute is the laziest kind of leadership.
00:35:28.422 --> 00:35:31.322
And you're like, I'm taking control of the situation.
00:35:31.322 --> 00:35:34.556
No, you're giving control of the situation to the handbook.
00:35:34.556 --> 00:35:35.556
Yeah.
00:35:35.556 --> 00:35:37.056
Handbooks don't control things.
00:35:37.056 --> 00:35:39.489
No. They're guardrails.
00:35:41.155 --> 00:35:58.722
Like so with that, when you see those issues, address the individual failures with the work, the sweaty ten minute conversation, instead of punishing the entire staff because we've all been there, we've all been in that meeting where we're like, great, we've got a new policy because Bob did the thing.
00:35:58.722 --> 00:36:00.489
We've all sat through those meetings.
00:36:00.489 --> 00:36:02.989
It sucks because you're like, why?
00:36:02.989 --> 00:36:04.489
Like, he's the one that screwed up.
00:36:04.489 --> 00:36:06.555
Why am I paying for this?
00:36:06.555 --> 00:36:11.355
But like, I would wear shoes, they'd be vented, but I'd wear a shoe.
00:36:11.355 --> 00:36:13.955
Now we've got to wear steel toe and all this like, right?
00:36:13.955 --> 00:36:15.622
We got ruined it for all of us.
00:36:15.622 --> 00:36:17.022
Ruined it for all of us.
00:36:17.022 --> 00:36:17.622
Yes.
00:36:17.622 --> 00:36:19.189
Bob needs to know about the problem.
00:36:19.189 --> 00:36:20.389
Not everyone.
00:36:20.389 --> 00:36:23.755
Um, let's go back to the mistake or pattern.
00:36:23.755 --> 00:36:24.589
Episode two.
00:36:24.589 --> 00:36:28.355
If it happens once, forget about it.
00:36:28.355 --> 00:36:31.622
I even spelled it in my notes as you did.
00:36:31.622 --> 00:36:33.489
Does it look like I got that right in the notes?
00:36:33.489 --> 00:36:34.055
Good job.
00:36:34.055 --> 00:36:41.989
Um, if it's a procedural reason, if it's something that fits with procedure, if it's broader reaching, then yes, it's probably there.
00:36:41.989 --> 00:36:42.589
Yeah.
00:36:42.589 --> 00:36:43.355
The last one.
00:36:43.355 --> 00:36:48.689
Does this have a measurable downstream value other than I don't have to look at Bob's feet.
00:36:51.355 --> 00:36:56.222
I mean, some people might say that's enough, but I understand where you're going, right?
00:36:56.222 --> 00:37:01.689
As I said that the look of I'm going to throw up on your face was was pretty good there.
00:37:01.689 --> 00:37:09.155
Every step in an SOP policy has to have like in an SOP, it has to have that measurable downstream value.
00:37:09.155 --> 00:37:12.889
If it doesn't, then why is it there?
00:37:12.889 --> 00:37:14.355
I mean, this is one of the first things.
00:37:14.355 --> 00:37:17.689
And this is when you can go through and you start tearing pages out of the book.
00:37:17.689 --> 00:37:20.789
If it doesn't offer downstream value, get rid of it.
00:37:20.789 --> 00:37:26.089
And suddenly your manual can go from like something that people can look at.
00:37:26.089 --> 00:37:29.922
Like before this, it was probably the Tldr.
00:37:29.922 --> 00:37:30.889
Mhm.
00:37:30.889 --> 00:37:32.655
Like, yeah, I'm gonna sign this.
00:37:32.655 --> 00:37:35.322
I haven't the foggiest idea what's in here too long.
00:37:35.322 --> 00:37:37.089
Didn't read sign.
00:37:37.089 --> 00:37:41.889
I, I mean, come on, you send the onboarding and they sign it all back and you get it in less than fifteen minutes.
00:37:41.889 --> 00:37:43.489
They never read the handbook.
00:37:43.489 --> 00:37:45.289
No one's ever read it.
00:37:45.289 --> 00:37:46.355
Create a quiz.
00:37:46.355 --> 00:37:51.055
You create a sign in the middle of the handbook that says, if you come back to me with this, I'm going to give you a candy bar.
00:37:51.055 --> 00:37:55.689
Like, I mean, there's a reason why college professors hide information in their syllabi.
00:37:55.689 --> 00:37:56.589
Oh, yeah.
00:37:56.589 --> 00:37:57.055
Yeah.
00:37:57.055 --> 00:37:58.789
They just, they want you to read it.
00:38:00.255 --> 00:38:01.055
The candy bar thing.
00:38:01.055 --> 00:38:02.589
I'm gonna look for that next time.
00:38:02.589 --> 00:38:04.222
If you give me something to read.
00:38:04.222 --> 00:38:06.655
I fully expect it to have that in there.
00:38:06.655 --> 00:38:13.822
The other thing is too, is if and this is our favorite explanation for everything, we've always done it this way.
00:38:15.255 --> 00:38:15.955
Oh yeah.
00:38:15.955 --> 00:38:20.355
Once again, I feel like this is the episode where I'm going to make Chrissy throw up.
00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:28.989
Here's the other piece to that is the zero expectations versus standard adaptation.
00:38:28.989 --> 00:38:33.289
You talked a lot about this, Chrissy, on the like just this once is never once.
00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:34.789
It never is not.
00:38:34.789 --> 00:38:44.889
And I laughed really when you said that because we both know I've made exceptions and I'm like, well, we'll do this once a week forever.
00:38:44.889 --> 00:38:46.355
I mean, it's human nature.
00:38:46.355 --> 00:38:49.889
I mean, we do it like we do it in our relationships, our personal relationships.
00:38:49.889 --> 00:38:50.855
We do it with our kids.
00:38:50.855 --> 00:38:51.789
We do it with our pets.
00:38:51.789 --> 00:38:52.389
Oh, it's just fine.
00:38:52.389 --> 00:38:53.655
I'll just sleep in our bed one time.
00:38:53.655 --> 00:38:53.989
Yeah.
00:38:53.989 --> 00:38:54.689
No.
00:38:54.689 --> 00:38:55.055
Yeah.
00:38:55.055 --> 00:38:59.555
No, I totally get it that as soon as you say that, it's it's done.
00:38:59.555 --> 00:39:02.789
As soon as you say it's just once it's you've given everyone.
00:39:02.789 --> 00:39:05.155
You have to say this applies to everyone.
00:39:05.155 --> 00:39:05.455
Yes.
00:39:05.455 --> 00:39:06.555
All the time.
00:39:06.555 --> 00:39:13.055
As soon as you do that, the small deviations in your SOPs work the same way as those policies.
00:39:13.055 --> 00:39:13.355
Yes.
00:39:13.355 --> 00:39:15.355
If you let it deviate, guess what?
00:39:15.355 --> 00:39:19.389
You are actively training your team that the rules are optional.
00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:20.189
I feel like we're in.
00:39:20.189 --> 00:39:22.389
Uh, what what, uh, whose line is it anyways?
00:39:22.389 --> 00:39:26.289
Where the rules don't matter and the points or the points don't matter, right?
00:39:26.289 --> 00:39:27.922
Oh, I can't remember it, but it was good.
00:39:27.922 --> 00:39:28.755
Yes.
00:39:28.755 --> 00:39:34.955
It's that very short leap from skipping a CRM entry into ignoring safety standards or HR policies.
00:39:34.955 --> 00:39:38.589
Yeah, it's it once again, it's, it's, it's the gateway drug.
00:39:38.589 --> 00:39:38.722
Yeah.
00:39:38.722 --> 00:39:40.622
And they're like, oh, is it really that big of a slippery slope?
00:39:40.622 --> 00:39:41.922
Yes it is.
00:39:41.922 --> 00:39:43.855
Yes it is.
00:39:43.855 --> 00:39:44.222
Sorry.
00:39:44.222 --> 00:39:48.122
You can call me the fun sucker, but yes, don't do it.
00:39:48.122 --> 00:39:50.755
Just this once is the gateway drug.
00:39:50.755 --> 00:39:52.622
And I'm old enough to remember the.
00:39:52.622 --> 00:39:53.822
This is your brain.
00:39:53.822 --> 00:39:55.189
This is your brain on drugs.
00:39:55.189 --> 00:39:56.322
Add the.
00:39:56.322 --> 00:40:03.589
The other thing that sometimes we get is we will get a client that wants us to bend our process.
00:40:03.589 --> 00:40:04.022
Yeah.
00:40:04.022 --> 00:40:05.189
And this is a big thing.
00:40:05.189 --> 00:40:11.555
And this is something that so many companies don't address because they're like, oh, we'd love to have a new client.
00:40:11.555 --> 00:40:13.222
Are they actually the right client?
00:40:13.222 --> 00:40:19.355
And this is a huge thing that you have to ask if they are strategic fit, but like require a custom route.
00:40:19.355 --> 00:40:21.655
This is not an oral communication.
00:40:21.655 --> 00:40:23.155
This is not oral instructions.
00:40:23.155 --> 00:40:23.622
This is not.
00:40:23.622 --> 00:40:26.289
Well, we changed this for this customer.
00:40:26.289 --> 00:40:29.189
We use what I like to call copy paste change.
00:40:29.189 --> 00:40:32.189
I cannot do the alliteration the way you can.
00:40:32.189 --> 00:40:34.555
I'm going to leave that to you.
00:40:34.555 --> 00:40:41.355
For podcast hosts, for like every podcast that comes into the studio, there's always something that's a slight bit different.
00:40:41.355 --> 00:40:44.655
Always because that's, yeah, ninety percent of them are the same.
00:40:44.655 --> 00:40:49.622
But there's that, there's that one or two instructions that are different.
00:40:49.622 --> 00:40:51.789
We duplicate those SOPs.
00:40:51.789 --> 00:41:04.655
So that way when it's client X comes in the door, we've now we've duplicated for them and we change those two or three steps for them, making sure that it still fits within what we do with within our wheelhouse.
00:41:04.655 --> 00:41:05.022
Yes.
00:41:05.022 --> 00:41:10.589
But then we call that SOP, but we give that SOP the client's name.
00:41:10.589 --> 00:41:14.389
This is Bob's or this is Bill's SOP.
00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:17.089
That way There's still an SOP for it.
00:41:17.089 --> 00:41:20.222
It's not, hey, we're going to ignore it for these people.
00:41:20.222 --> 00:41:22.289
We've rewritten it for someone else.
00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:28.222
Now, granted, ninety percent of it was the exact same stuff, and that's why we just copied and pasted the new SOP.
00:41:28.222 --> 00:41:30.655
Yes, but this client has their own SOP.
00:41:30.655 --> 00:41:35.422
Once again, it gets filed in the active library with everything else.
00:41:35.422 --> 00:41:37.055
So you can see it and you know it.
00:41:37.055 --> 00:41:40.589
If this is the steps that so many people it's not a shadow workflow.
00:41:40.589 --> 00:41:46.022
No. Well, and this is a step that they may copy and paste, but then they don't put it with the rest of the stuff.
00:41:46.022 --> 00:41:48.655
No. And then it's like, oh, well, this person knows exactly what to do.
00:41:48.655 --> 00:41:53.422
That's how you get a brilliant jerk by unintentionally, because they know what all the extras are.
00:41:53.422 --> 00:41:53.855
Correct.
00:41:53.855 --> 00:41:54.955
It's hanging on the wall.
00:41:54.955 --> 00:41:55.522
Yep.
00:41:55.522 --> 00:41:58.689
Um, next to the machine instead of with the rest of the things.
00:41:58.689 --> 00:41:59.422
Exactly.
00:41:59.422 --> 00:42:00.889
Put it with the rest of the things.
00:42:00.889 --> 00:42:03.422
If you forget that step, you.
00:42:03.422 --> 00:42:08.655
Once again, you've destroyed all of this because you're no longer consistent.
00:42:08.655 --> 00:42:14.689
You have to be the consistent with it with this Star performers.
00:42:14.689 --> 00:42:16.122
You talked about them?
00:42:16.122 --> 00:42:17.589
Yeah.
00:42:17.589 --> 00:42:19.289
What do you do when you're big?
00:42:19.289 --> 00:42:20.555
Is best.
00:42:20.555 --> 00:42:28.989
Highest revenue producer refuses to log their activity in the CRM or follow up on the SOP.
00:42:28.989 --> 00:42:29.389
Oh, gosh.
00:42:29.389 --> 00:42:32.789
That's favoritism trap with a spotlight, right?
00:42:32.789 --> 00:42:41.855
So I mean, because it's your most visible person doing it is because in the minute you let your highest producer ignore the rules because they bring in the revenue, the whole team is going to learn that values have a price tag.
00:42:41.855 --> 00:42:43.355
Rules matter.
00:42:43.355 --> 00:42:44.189
Oh yeah.
00:42:44.189 --> 00:42:45.489
Yeah, I like that.
00:42:45.489 --> 00:42:47.322
So rules matter even when there's a star.
00:42:47.322 --> 00:42:51.789
So and I get it when leaders, they're scared to do this like, well, if I push them, they'll leave.
00:42:51.789 --> 00:43:00.455
And I'm just, I tell you, if your business is held hostage by one person refusing to follow the rules, the problem is already bigger than the CRM issue that you have, right?
00:43:00.455 --> 00:43:04.689
So I mean, and from the HR seat, it becomes a fairness issue from the CEO seat.
00:43:04.689 --> 00:43:09.089
It becomes a culture issue because everyone is watching you with this person.
00:43:09.089 --> 00:43:13.289
And if you don't do this right, yes, you have destroyed anything you have built.
00:43:13.289 --> 00:43:13.755
Yeah.
00:43:13.755 --> 00:43:15.322
And so, I mean, the question is really simple.
00:43:15.322 --> 00:43:16.955
Is the policy actually necessary?
00:43:16.955 --> 00:43:17.222
Sure.
00:43:17.222 --> 00:43:17.689
Right.
00:43:17.689 --> 00:43:24.222
And if the CRM entry or the handoff of the SOP protects the next person, the client experience reporting accountability, then yeah, it's absolutely necessary.
00:43:24.222 --> 00:43:27.189
So this is again purpose practice protection purpose.
00:43:27.189 --> 00:43:30.589
The rule exists because, you know, the work impacts other people practice.
00:43:30.589 --> 00:43:32.955
Everyone follows it including the star.
00:43:32.955 --> 00:43:36.089
And protection is the team is protected from one person's ego or exception.
00:43:36.089 --> 00:43:40.722
So, you know, if they're truly brilliant, they can follow your process.
00:43:42.322 --> 00:43:46.355
And if they refuse, I mean, they're not brilliant.
00:43:46.355 --> 00:43:47.722
They're becoming a risk.
00:43:47.722 --> 00:43:49.555
You said that is such a smart ass.
00:43:49.555 --> 00:43:50.322
I did.
00:43:51.389 --> 00:43:56.355
If they're truly brilliant, they're smart enough to follow the process.
00:43:56.355 --> 00:43:57.355
Bob.
00:43:57.355 --> 00:43:58.355
I mean, do you think.
00:43:58.355 --> 00:44:03.789
I mean, these are conversations that I think our clarity team has daily with organizations.
00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:11.555
I mean, I've had these conversations with managers before too, where it's, it's literally, it's like, you can't I know they make your day easier.
00:44:11.555 --> 00:44:19.389
Yes, but they're actually making it harder because downstream you're doing ten times, ten times the other work.
00:44:19.389 --> 00:44:21.389
Yeah, they just do it with a smile.
00:44:21.389 --> 00:44:21.622
Yeah.
00:44:21.622 --> 00:44:22.222
So what about you?
00:44:22.222 --> 00:44:22.689
What do you do?
00:44:22.689 --> 00:44:24.989
I mean, I was a smart aleck, but I mean coach.
00:44:24.989 --> 00:44:25.289
Correct.
00:44:25.289 --> 00:44:25.622
Cut.
00:44:25.622 --> 00:44:25.989
Yeah.
00:44:25.989 --> 00:44:32.555
I mean, really, if you tolerate the brilliant jerk, like breaking that workflow standard once again, it's no different.
00:44:32.555 --> 00:44:36.022
If someone broke, if someone breaks it, it's broken for everyone.
00:44:36.022 --> 00:44:36.555
Yes.
00:44:36.555 --> 00:44:37.455
This is glass.
00:44:37.455 --> 00:44:38.855
It takes forever to fix it.
00:44:38.855 --> 00:44:39.655
Correct.
00:44:39.655 --> 00:44:40.889
This is glass.
00:44:40.889 --> 00:44:42.255
This is not like.
00:44:42.255 --> 00:44:43.822
Well, it's just broken for them.
00:44:43.822 --> 00:44:44.989
No, it's broken for everyone.
00:44:44.989 --> 00:44:45.689
Everybody.
00:44:45.689 --> 00:44:49.222
Um. Yeah, just totally one of those things.
00:44:49.222 --> 00:44:57.822
One thing that I find interesting is like the handbooks as culture or handbooks as legal shields.
00:44:57.822 --> 00:45:03.089
I mean, yeah, building a human first culture.
00:45:03.089 --> 00:45:07.189
Can you do that with a handbook written by corporate lawyers?
00:45:07.189 --> 00:45:18.289
And to me it's the documents and rules aren't like don't create culture like documents can support a culture and they can give you reference to what things should be.
00:45:18.289 --> 00:45:22.922
But action on those things is what actually creates the culture.
00:45:22.922 --> 00:45:28.355
Culture is the result of how you implement things, not what's written in your handbook.
00:45:28.355 --> 00:45:30.355
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
00:45:30.355 --> 00:45:34.855
I mean, a handbook doesn't create culture, but it absolutely reveals what leadership is willing to enforce.
00:45:34.855 --> 00:45:35.522
Oh, yes.
00:45:35.522 --> 00:45:37.489
I mean, we can't build culture with a handbook alone.
00:45:37.489 --> 00:45:41.255
I think the problem, too, is when handbooks sound nothing like the company.
00:45:41.255 --> 00:45:42.122
Right.
00:45:42.122 --> 00:45:45.822
Have you ever gotten a warning by a cop and slowed down?
00:45:45.822 --> 00:45:48.655
I mean, for five minutes or so.
00:45:48.655 --> 00:45:50.222
I mean, I'm married to a guy, right?
00:45:50.222 --> 00:45:51.889
But but you get what I'm saying.
00:45:51.889 --> 00:45:55.889
There is if they let you off with a warning, you're like, okay, I'm.
00:45:55.889 --> 00:45:56.689
I'm okay.
00:45:56.689 --> 00:45:59.322
I mean, you're not going to speed away, but you're like, I'm good.
00:45:59.322 --> 00:46:05.055
But if if you get a ticket, if there's actual consequences to it, you slow down for at least a month.
00:46:05.055 --> 00:46:07.222
You do maybe.
00:46:07.222 --> 00:46:12.055
I mean, maybe I mean, you might you might make a decision.
00:46:12.055 --> 00:46:17.655
Um, I will tell you to when your handbook reads like a hostage note from corporate legal, nobody wants to follow it.
00:46:17.655 --> 00:46:19.689
No, I mean, there's a disconnect there.
00:46:19.689 --> 00:46:21.522
If it's written in legalese.
00:46:21.522 --> 00:46:21.989
Yes.
00:46:21.989 --> 00:46:23.055
No one can read it.
00:46:23.055 --> 00:46:25.255
No. It needs to be something that you can understand.
00:46:25.255 --> 00:46:27.255
Now, I am also not telling you to throw out your legal review.
00:46:27.255 --> 00:46:30.322
Like we're not treating we're not treating our handbook like jazz.
00:46:30.322 --> 00:46:32.055
And it's always improvisational.
00:46:32.055 --> 00:46:33.855
No, I did not say that.
00:46:33.855 --> 00:46:35.855
That is not the message.
00:46:35.855 --> 00:46:37.355
It's not like whose line is it anyway?
00:46:37.355 --> 00:46:38.555
No policy.
00:46:38.555 --> 00:46:41.322
They have to be legally sound, but they have to be understandable.
00:46:41.322 --> 00:46:43.555
They have to be human readable.
00:46:43.555 --> 00:46:43.855
Yes.
00:46:43.855 --> 00:46:44.289
Right.
00:46:44.289 --> 00:46:47.055
To the average person, not the person that.
00:46:47.055 --> 00:46:51.522
I mean, unless you've got a team, unless you're a law firm, and it's all written for lawyers, fine.
00:46:51.522 --> 00:46:53.322
But most of us are not law firms.
00:46:53.322 --> 00:46:56.289
So it has to be written so the average person can understand it.
00:46:56.289 --> 00:46:59.789
Your average worker, their average level of education.
00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:01.155
You've got to make sure it's able.
00:47:01.155 --> 00:47:04.255
And I mean to if you employ a bunch of lawyers, then fine.
00:47:04.255 --> 00:47:05.322
That's fine.
00:47:05.322 --> 00:47:06.589
But most of us don't.
00:47:06.589 --> 00:47:08.155
So, I mean, a handbook should do three things.
00:47:08.155 --> 00:47:12.855
It should explain expectations, it should create consistency, and it should reflect the company's values.
00:47:12.855 --> 00:47:13.589
That's it.
00:47:13.589 --> 00:47:14.322
Simple.
00:47:14.322 --> 00:47:14.755
Yes.
00:47:14.755 --> 00:47:16.222
Key takeaways from today.
00:47:16.222 --> 00:47:20.522
For me, the first one run the why the hell do we have this rule?
00:47:20.522 --> 00:47:21.789
Clean up.
00:47:21.789 --> 00:47:22.689
If.
00:47:22.689 --> 00:47:22.922
Take.
00:47:22.922 --> 00:47:28.522
Just take an hour on Friday, delete three useless policies or outdated SOPs and let.
00:47:28.522 --> 00:47:30.355
Let your team know.
00:47:30.355 --> 00:47:31.822
Don't just delete them.
00:47:31.822 --> 00:47:33.089
Let your team know.
00:47:33.089 --> 00:47:37.989
Yes, and that's why I say and tell the team what changed and why.
00:47:37.989 --> 00:47:40.222
Okay, it's not because if you don't say why, Chrissy, you're gonna.
00:47:40.222 --> 00:47:41.522
Chrissy and I are gonna ignore it.
00:47:41.522 --> 00:47:41.922
Exactly.
00:47:41.922 --> 00:47:43.822
Well, silent cleanup is still invisible leadership.
00:47:43.822 --> 00:47:46.089
Nobody's gonna pay attention if you don't tell them.
00:47:48.155 --> 00:47:49.222
The other.
00:47:49.222 --> 00:47:50.455
This is the other one.
00:47:50.455 --> 00:47:51.789
Look in the mirror, damn it.
00:47:51.789 --> 00:47:52.455
Yeah.
00:47:52.455 --> 00:47:53.089
Don't.
00:47:53.089 --> 00:47:55.322
Not to be like, oh, I'm so pretty.
00:47:55.322 --> 00:47:59.322
If your team is chronically bypassing a rule, guess what?
00:47:59.322 --> 00:48:01.222
It's probably because you are.
00:48:01.222 --> 00:48:01.922
Yeah.
00:48:01.922 --> 00:48:05.022
I mean, nine times out of ten, That is the thing.
00:48:05.022 --> 00:48:07.622
If you bypass something, the team will too.
00:48:07.622 --> 00:48:08.255
Yeah, you did it.
00:48:08.255 --> 00:48:11.689
And so we standardize the exception before we approve it.
00:48:11.689 --> 00:48:12.989
Oh, yes.
00:48:12.989 --> 00:48:13.189
Yeah.
00:48:13.189 --> 00:48:16.689
Because an exception without criteria is favoritism waiting to happen.
00:48:18.822 --> 00:48:19.789
I need a pillow.
00:48:21.055 --> 00:48:22.389
This is another pillow.
00:48:22.389 --> 00:48:29.822
I seriously, we are going to have to come up with like the business fix merch is going to be pillows and t shirts that have Chrissy isms on them.
00:48:29.822 --> 00:48:31.055
Me to me.
00:48:31.055 --> 00:48:33.155
Stop the panic policy cycle.
00:48:33.155 --> 00:48:38.389
The next time someone makes a mistake, do not write a company wide policy.
00:48:38.389 --> 00:48:41.055
Have a talk with that person.
00:48:41.055 --> 00:48:42.189
Have a talk with the offender.
00:48:42.189 --> 00:48:43.155
Yes, agreed with you?
00:48:43.155 --> 00:48:45.622
I was going to say correct the person before you punish the population.
00:48:45.622 --> 00:48:49.389
So I think we were in absolute agreement on that last one.
00:48:49.389 --> 00:48:54.955
Like, don't make ninety nine good employees live under one policy written for one bad decision.
00:48:57.655 --> 00:49:00.455
Don't send gen pop to solitaire.
00:49:00.455 --> 00:49:02.022
Yes to solitary.
00:49:02.022 --> 00:49:02.489
Yes.
00:49:02.489 --> 00:49:06.855
because you had one person do a screw up with all that.
00:49:06.855 --> 00:49:09.789
I mean, this has been this has been a big one.
00:49:09.789 --> 00:49:10.189
Yeah.
00:49:10.189 --> 00:49:13.255
There's like, I think people have a lot of homework to do.
00:49:13.255 --> 00:49:22.655
They do I do too, because this is one of those things where as I was going through stuff I like as we're writing this episode, I'm like, oh yeah, there's that one.
00:49:22.655 --> 00:49:26.855
Yeah, we just reviewed all of our stuff and I'm like, I'm so glad we did that.
00:49:26.855 --> 00:49:29.422
So you could come in with a clean conscience.
00:49:29.422 --> 00:49:30.822
I feel good about ourselves right now.
00:49:30.822 --> 00:49:38.522
We're recording this episode in the evening, and I just realized I have a very late night ahead of me.
00:49:38.522 --> 00:49:42.789
That all being said, no matter what time you're listening or watching, thank you.
00:49:42.789 --> 00:49:43.722
We both appreciate it.
00:49:43.722 --> 00:49:48.022
We like truly glad to have everyone along on this ride.
00:49:48.022 --> 00:49:51.522
We've got a ton of new people recently and it's been fun.
00:49:51.522 --> 00:49:52.589
One hundred percent.
00:49:52.589 --> 00:49:58.422
The comments that we're getting, the stories that we're getting, uh, are just wonderful.
00:49:58.422 --> 00:50:09.755
I mean, some of them are horrifying, but it makes us realize that what we're doing has meaning, and we are so glad that we're able to connect with you about that.
00:50:09.755 --> 00:50:15.355
Uh, the next episode, we're going to talk about when transparency backfires because we are all about being transparent.
00:50:15.355 --> 00:50:21.455
I can't wait, but there are times when I may have been slightly too transparent on things.
00:50:21.455 --> 00:50:22.722
Um, do us a favor.
00:50:22.722 --> 00:50:27.755
Hit business podcast dot com have us as speakers.
00:50:27.755 --> 00:50:29.155
Yeah, we're, we're excited.
00:50:29.155 --> 00:50:34.522
We've got a few gigs coming up, but we're really excited about also, do us a favor, take care of yourself.
00:50:34.522 --> 00:50:39.089
If you can take care of someone else too, we will see you very, very soon.