Optimize When Life Isn’t Optimal: Margin, Boundaries, and Calm Under Pressure | Ft Eric Dwyer

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Welcome to the Optimizing Beyond podcast. I'm
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Josh Negron, and this show is all about sharing
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lessons, ideas, and strategies that sharpen your
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thinking, strengthen your habits, and push you
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to grow beyond comfort zones. Let's dive in.
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Welcome back to the show. Today, I have a guest
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named Eric Dwyer. He's a dear friend of mine,
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and he's a senior pastor at a church in Mountain
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Home, Arkansas. Welcome to the show, Eric. Thanks
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for having me, Josh. Absolutely. Absolutely.
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And as you know, we talk about all things optimization
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from tech mindset to really practical things.
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And I wanted to get you on the show today because
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we were talking offline about, you know, it's...
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It's easy to talk about optimization when you're
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constantly looking at that additional 1 % to
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make yourself better in so many areas. But let's
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admit it, I think we all know and are familiar
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with areas in our lives that, let's just face
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it, are not optimal. So how do we optimize when
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you're not in the black? when you're in the red,
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emotionally, physically, both or more, right?
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So that was some of the things that we were discussing.
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Now, can you share with our audience why you
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would have some, maybe some experience in this
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area? Yeah, listen, this is the type of leader
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nobody really wants to be, right? The wartime
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general. Everybody wants everything to be at
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peace and going, but when the reality is that's
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just not life. And so when... Situations like
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that hit your people and they see how you have
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dealt with things like this. They're following
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your example, oftentimes more than they're following
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your instructions. My life has had times, seasons
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that have been marked by sort of could be chaos
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that has taken some leaders under. We have had
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health scares in our family. We have had adoption
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struggles. In our family, the organization that
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I lead went through what a lot of organizations
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went through with a lot of questions, more questions
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and unprecedented times, trying to seek answers
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that were best and that were optimal for your
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organization and your people to retain them and
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still serve them. So it's just had a lot of these
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moments that are marked with trials and how you
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handle those things internally is really what
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comes out of you externally and then flows down
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to the rest of your organization. How do you
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handle that pressure too? Cause like, obviously,
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you know, that, you know, that people are, you're
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leading or watching, um, and you don't want to
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just be that, you know, that statistic hypocrite,
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right. That, uh, that doesn't practice what you
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preach. And does that make it, would you, would
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you say that sometimes it makes it harder because
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everybody's watching? I think it's harder if
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you're in the wrong setting or if you have your
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head in the wrong frame of mind of what your
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people need from you, what they expect of you.
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Perfection is an unattainable goal, but you can
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be authentic. So one thing that I try to do is
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earphones have low power mode when it's needed.
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And oftentimes we only go into low power mode
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whenever the battery is like you're at 20 percent,
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the battery is red. You need to go into low power
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mode now. You can go into low power mode. any
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time if you're like dude i'm at 50 i better i
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better throw this into low power mode right now
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it's just so that my 50 goes longer we get to
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like five percent and hope that we can get through
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the next five hours of the day on low power mode
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you don't have to run that hard the whole time
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so part of it is just being aware uh constantly
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checking yourself saying i'm at 80 you know i'm
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at i'm at 40 and if you don't have the people
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around you What you're conveying then is if I
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have to be 100 % all the time and perfect, then
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everybody around you is trying to keep up with
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that. And you may be that really optimal leader
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that has everything clicking and humming, but
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oftentimes the people that are right under you.
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They can't, or even beneath them, they can't
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either. And so they're trying to run at your
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pace because you've got this awesome level of
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leadership. But what you're doing, you're not
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burning out, but you're burning everybody else
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out because they're trying to keep pace with
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you. And sometimes you're the type of leader
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that says, well, I want people that are like
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me and my equals, so cut them. Well, maybe that's
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you and you have to cut them. But I find it's
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better to be more real and say, hey, I'm struggling
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with this. And that means it's okay for your
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other people to struggle with it. So then they
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look at how you're handling your struggle. And
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they implement that and then they get better
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by a wide margin. Everybody, everybody gets better
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whenever you are authentic in how you're handling
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situations. How do you handle boundaries with
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that? Because obviously authenticity opens the
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door for your followers and the people that you
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lead to. to share in that suffering with you
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and how you're getting through it. So I, obviously
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there's a lot of benefit there in, in trust and,
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and, and them learning the, the, the ways through
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what, you know, we could, let's categorize as
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the valleys, you know, but then also as a leader,
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you also have to keep certain boundaries, you
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know? And so there's this, like these, these
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levels of like, Hey, how are you today, Eric?
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And, you know, you're like, well, I'm actually
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really bad, you know? So how do you handle that
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balance? Well, I wish it were a clean chart where
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you could say, all right, these are my peer leaders
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and I can be this gut level honest with them.
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And then these are the people that are on the
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next level of leadership. And, you know, everybody,
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everybody, especially in my frame of like what
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I do for a living, they have the right to expect
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a degree of leadership. You know, we're spiritual
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leaders for a reason. It's not like, hey, guys,
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I'm just one of you. Let's all, you know, that's
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not a leader. You can lead from within, but still
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you have to stand up and lead. So if you've got
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people that are maybe on your board or whatever,
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and they're the same authority as you, but they're
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not as connected, you may have people that have
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the same level of authority as you on your board
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that you still aren't as open with. You know,
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you've got your few that you're like, I'm actually
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more. I'll tell these people. I'm not hiding
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anything from these people and they're still
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just as valuable on the board. And like, we're
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all, like I said, all on the same team on the
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same level, but it's not like everybody here
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gets the exact same information at all times.
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And then you may have somebody that is like a
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subordinate or something like that, that I say
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subordinate, not as in like servitude, but just
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in, in, in levels here, somebody that reports
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you a direct report. And you may feel like you
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have a better connection with them and you can,
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you can be more authentic with them and more
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honest about. the situation that you're going
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through than you can even at times with the people
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that are sort of in your boardroom or on that
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same level with you. So I wish it were a clean
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chart, but oftentimes you just have to assess
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the relationship that you have with that person
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and be real about it because there are some people
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you're connected to on a more friendship level,
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gut level, like brother level, but they're not
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in the decision -making room. And so you have
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to be wise. You have to be wise to consider the
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people that are around you at any given time.
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So what I do, there are people that I know that
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I probably shouldn't share all information with.
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That's not because I'm trying to shield myself.
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If anything, it's because I'm trying to shield
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them and to protect them. Because they don't
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know, they would not know how to handle the information
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and sit with the information if I gave it to
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them. But I make sure, I make sure that I do
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have people that I can give all of the information
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to so that I'm not holding on to all of that.
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Make sure to find people outside of your organization.
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I had a friend tell it to me this way. He's like,
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man, I act like a dog that needs to take a dump
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in somebody else's yard so I don't have to step
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in it. So it's like you just find some other
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space. Where you can tell everybody exactly what's
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going on without any fear of it coming back to
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be like, hey, we should probably, you know, pull
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you out, you know, that sort of thing. Because
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if it's not to that level, you should absolutely
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trust your team. But I have internal people that
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I trust with everything, external people that
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I trust with everything. And it really is a,
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you have to know the relationship, whatever level
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it's at. And some people just get a cookie cutter
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answer. And it's not wrong. It's still real.
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But it's something that is, you know, whenever
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we go through things, I say, hey, well, I'm pressed,
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but I'm not crushed. And that's a very real thing.
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I believe that. But that that's not the in depth
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here. Let me show you my schedule of all the
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appointments that we went to or the court dates
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that we had. They don't need to know all that
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info. And they care. Sometimes you can overshare
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more than they actually care. Right. They can
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say, how are you? And you're like, here's my
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heart. And they're like, oh, no. So it's not
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that they don't care at all. It's just you have
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to match the information you give with the care
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that they actually have in the relationship.
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You don't want to overburden the relationship.
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You also don't want to underfeed it because then
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people can tell how they're really holding back.
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That means they don't trust me and that actually
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comes. a wedge in the relationship too. So it's
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way more by feel. And some people just have that
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EQ, that sort of emotional quotient that they
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can tell, this is what this person needs. Because
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even while you're going through chaos, other
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people are going through chaos too. And so if
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you're like, oh, let me tell you about my chaos,
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sometimes that does not help them. And they'll
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be like, oh no, there's more chaos out there.
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And they'll panic. Some people can, they actually
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get comfort from that. You know, they say, oh
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good, other people are going through hard times
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too. It's very much by feel. It's like walking
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a landmine sometimes. That made me thought like
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what you described is things like wisdom, discernment,
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right? In knowing like when is the right thing
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to say and what. And I also want to draw out
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the distinction that you had with the degrees
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of vulnerability not being deception, right?
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Because I think that sometimes people like to
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strong arm when they feel like someone's not
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sharing. deeper or with them that they feel they
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feel some somehow like betrayed or that they're
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being lied to and it's like no though those those
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levels are levels of you know levels of vulnerability
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right and that that that doesn't necessarily
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translate into into deception or lying or or
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even hiding something right because like you
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said if someone doesn't even if someone let's
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just take the simplest form if someone doesn't
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fully care then you going you going too deep
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would be like Whoa. Right? Yeah. I would say,
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for example, when we were going through our adoption
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struggle with our daughter, a lot of that, she's
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three, four years old at the time. She wasn't
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aware. We could not possibly tell her everything,
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all the information about what judges and lawyers
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and caseworkers were saying. She didn't have
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the maturity, the capacity for that at that time.
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There may come a time, actually, as she's getting
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older, she's 12 now, I've told her, I said, hey,
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any questions you have about how all of that
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went down, any information that you have that
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you haven't told me, we're in a different stage
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of your life and our relationship now. I can
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tell you more than I couldn't tell you when you
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were four years old. So even if you do withhold
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information, it's not necessarily a permanent
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withholding. It's a need to know on a time basis.
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And as people then in the organization sort of
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level up, you can go, okay, here's your security
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clearance now because you're not just an intern
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here, you've leveled up. So this withholding
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of information is not, like you said, it's not
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deception, it's protection in some instances.
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It's true. Another thing that... It kind of makes
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me think about is the degree of self -control
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too. Like when we're having a hard time, I think
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then one of the natural defaults is to, I mean,
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tell anybody that'll listen. We all know that
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person, right? You know, you're like, how are
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you? And then you sometimes, like, if you don't
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have time, you avoid them because you know, if
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you're like, if you open that door, it's going
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to be, you know, 57 minutes minimum, right? It's
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the Eeyore door. Oh my goodness. Right. And so.
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I think sometimes the natural default is to just
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blur, you know, and get that all out there. And
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it's tough because it takes that discernment,
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right, to know who to share things to. But I
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think that's that additional layer of discernment
00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:38.340
of like, hey, I need to have the self -control
00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:41.919
to identify a small group of people. Like you
00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.340
said, I have key people here and I have key people
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:47.700
here. And the definition of that is not everybody,
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:53.049
right? To also identify that, that like you're
00:12:53.049 --> 00:12:55.490
going to sometimes want to overshare and you
00:12:55.490 --> 00:13:00.629
need to really be careful of, yeah, of just not
00:13:00.629 --> 00:13:03.070
doing that, right? Any additional thoughts on
00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:07.090
that front? Just that the oversharing can be
00:13:07.090 --> 00:13:10.269
overbearing to certain people. And there are
00:13:10.269 --> 00:13:12.470
like safe spaces. They're like home bases anywhere
00:13:12.470 --> 00:13:15.210
you go. And so the inverse of that is true. There
00:13:15.210 --> 00:13:17.830
are also people that are not quite as trustworthy
00:13:17.830 --> 00:13:21.200
in all of those spaces as well. Whatever branch
00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:23.860
you're visiting that particular day, there are
00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:26.299
safe people, but there are also people that probably
00:13:26.299 --> 00:13:29.220
don't need all of the information. So there are
00:13:29.220 --> 00:13:32.019
safe spots and there's also hot spots in every
00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:35.419
level. Absolutely. So when you've been in these
00:13:35.419 --> 00:13:38.799
points in your life, what would you say have
00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:43.399
been the disciplines or habits that really have
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.580
kept you grounded? For example, therapists will
00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:50.840
talk about when someone's Once I've been any
00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.299
valley, sometimes like the goals and the tasks
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:57.440
that they give them are very simple. Like for
00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.179
someone deep, deep in depression, it's like,
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:03.019
hey, you know, this week I need you to get fully
00:14:03.019 --> 00:14:05.179
ready for the day and fully dressed and go outside
00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:08.820
for five minutes. Right. So to anyone not in
00:14:08.820 --> 00:14:11.740
a valley, they're like, what a dumb goal. Like,
00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:16.029
right. Yeah. So obviously that that's that's
00:14:16.029 --> 00:14:17.389
going to be dependent on where someone's at.
00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:20.350
So what what for you has been, you know, those
00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:23.210
core things that you hold on to to to get you
00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:26.009
through? What's funny is I used to give advice
00:14:26.009 --> 00:14:28.669
to people in their struggles and their losses
00:14:28.669 --> 00:14:30.409
or whatever they've been going through. And I
00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:33.049
just say, hey, I need you to treat yourself like
00:14:33.049 --> 00:14:35.029
a plant, all right? Give yourself food, give
00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:36.789
yourself water, and go out and get yourself some
00:14:36.789 --> 00:14:38.929
sunlight. Just kind of keep it to those basic
00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:41.809
things and watch that sort of progress from there.
00:14:42.029 --> 00:14:44.610
But one thing that I have done, especially in
00:14:44.610 --> 00:14:47.889
recent years, is leveraged technology because
00:14:47.889 --> 00:14:51.440
technology has been... just extremely more and
00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:53.500
more, more and more helpful. Because if we treat
00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:57.039
our brain like a computer, right? If your computer
00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.759
is just maxed out on its memory and storage and
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.639
everything it's trying to do, all of the programs,
00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.940
when it starts to run, your computer sounds like
00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:05.440
an airplane's taken off and you're like, what
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.019
is happening? What's happening right now? Everything's
00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:09.059
sluggish. Everything's slow. Everything's choppy.
00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:13.019
So what you would do for a computer is you say,
00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:15.320
I need to get some of this stuff that's on here.
00:15:16.669 --> 00:15:19.330
17 tabs open and one of them is playing music
00:15:19.330 --> 00:15:21.309
and you don't know where it is. All of those
00:15:21.309 --> 00:15:24.210
things happening all going on at once. Just plug
00:15:24.210 --> 00:15:26.730
in an external hard drive, get some of the important
00:15:26.730 --> 00:15:30.230
things off of that so that there's space for
00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:32.429
the other things that you need to process. And
00:15:32.429 --> 00:15:35.049
so technology for me is one of those instances.
00:15:35.110 --> 00:15:36.789
It's like a little external hard drive where
00:15:36.789 --> 00:15:39.710
all I have to do is say, just speak words, remind
00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:43.659
me in three hours that I need to start. you know,
00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:46.200
dinner, whatever the case may be, because you
00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:48.399
can get so ingrained in making sure that the
00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.759
chaos is controlled that you forget that there's
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.279
care that needs to happen in other areas as well.
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:55.519
So if you're watch buzzes and you're like, I
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.600
need to, I need to get ready. There's so many
00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.259
things that can be going on. It can be as simple
00:15:59.259 --> 00:16:01.600
as I need to pick up my daughter early from school.
00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.470
That was just yesterday because we had. christmas
00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:06.649
break now and she i mean she needed to be picked
00:16:06.649 --> 00:16:09.490
up at one not three the usual time but if i'm
00:16:09.490 --> 00:16:12.309
so into this world of immersive managing these
00:16:12.309 --> 00:16:16.669
important situations i can default to my to my
00:16:16.669 --> 00:16:19.250
routine and then other people suffer instead
00:16:19.250 --> 00:16:22.330
of just taking five seconds to say set a reminder
00:16:22.330 --> 00:16:25.070
to get one o 'clock to get my daughter and then
00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:27.490
set it 15 minutes earlier. I'm the type of person
00:16:27.490 --> 00:16:30.950
and personality type with my ENFP that I've been
00:16:30.950 --> 00:16:33.250
leveraging technology for a long time to help
00:16:33.250 --> 00:16:35.850
me be organized. And so just having those little
00:16:35.850 --> 00:16:37.830
moments like that, just it's again, just taking
00:16:37.830 --> 00:16:40.429
that processing power and putting it in something
00:16:40.429 --> 00:16:43.190
that doesn't feel the emotions that you're experiencing.
00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:46.220
It's not feeling the pressure that you're feeling.
00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.700
It's a talking electronic rock. Like it will
00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:52.240
just do all of the things for you. And so anything
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.120
that is heavy or that space, you free that up
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.200
so that you can process other things and you
00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.399
don't get so sluggish like a rundown computer,
00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.779
an overburdened computer. Like, yeah, offloading
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:06.670
the things that... Yeah. Aren't going to, aren't
00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:08.950
going to need your, your bandwidth. Right. You
00:17:08.950 --> 00:17:10.750
know, cause we all have limited, limited bandwidth.
00:17:10.869 --> 00:17:13.769
It increases, it increases your margin. And it's
00:17:13.769 --> 00:17:16.910
amazing how you still feel the more margin you
00:17:16.910 --> 00:17:19.750
have, you still, you're not panicking as much.
00:17:19.890 --> 00:17:21.529
There's, there's peace, you know, you're like,
00:17:21.589 --> 00:17:24.049
Oh, there's a cliff over there, but I'm still
00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:26.829
way far away from it. You know, you start making
00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:30.109
better decisions, wiser decisions, and your people
00:17:30.109 --> 00:17:32.789
sense that you're not in panic mode. So they
00:17:32.789 --> 00:17:37.380
also make. decisions where they're not fearing
00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:40.160
for their jobs or fearing for the future. And
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:41.900
so they're making great decisions that actually
00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:46.039
ingrain them in the organization that instill
00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:48.819
trust in the organization. And so I also leverage
00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:52.200
my team along with technology. I leverage my
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.440
team because I've got people that I can trust
00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.539
completely that I, that I work with. And so if
00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:00.559
I say, Hey, They trust me too. So if I say I'm
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.240
going to have to miss this meeting or this event
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.420
or something along those lines, they don't question
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:09.400
it at all because they know my heart is to be
00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.559
there. My heart is to support them. And they
00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.680
know the drill and they support me because they
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:16.940
know that I support them. And they're also leveraging
00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:19.180
technology as well to give themselves margins
00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:21.480
in case something needs to be off of my plate
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.440
and thrown on their plate. Suddenly their plate
00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.700
isn't spilling over too. So it really needs to
00:18:25.700 --> 00:18:28.440
be copied and pasted all throughout. Sometimes
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.099
something needs to be handed down, but if you
00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:32.220
hand it to somebody whose hands are full, the
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.839
stuff's going to fall. But if you do not, I would
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.119
say, if you do not connect with your team, trust
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.539
your team and leverage your team, you're not
00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:43.559
a leader that is looking to put down roots in
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:45.940
that organization or in that place. Because whenever
00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:48.259
you do that, leverage your technology and your
00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:51.559
team, you are ingraining yourself in that culture,
00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:54.339
in that organization. And your people are as
00:18:54.339 --> 00:18:58.750
well. And it gets very cohesive. You can add
00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:01.769
more easily to that because that team is healthy
00:19:01.769 --> 00:19:03.589
and people feel like they can be a part of it.
00:19:03.769 --> 00:19:06.210
And it gets harder and harder to leave a team
00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:08.869
of people that give you margin, give you the
00:19:08.869 --> 00:19:11.269
space you need, trust each other and care for
00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:13.250
each other whenever it hits the fan. Then you
00:19:13.250 --> 00:19:16.369
retain good people. You contain the problems
00:19:16.369 --> 00:19:21.150
and you actually gain momentum. No, that's solid.
00:19:21.529 --> 00:19:25.190
So you kind of peeled back something that I want
00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:29.690
to touch on in that. You know, there's this feeling
00:19:29.690 --> 00:19:32.910
that leaders often have, maybe tied to like guilt
00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:36.210
of, you know, in times of struggle or challenge
00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:40.170
where, you know, maybe you have to hand things
00:19:40.170 --> 00:19:43.230
off and you feel like, man, am I doing enough?
00:19:43.289 --> 00:19:47.569
Because in this valley, I'm not able to execute
00:19:47.569 --> 00:19:51.509
at the level that I know I could, should, or
00:19:51.509 --> 00:19:55.710
am expected to. Insert the blank. I mean, so
00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:57.170
then you have to, like you said, you have to
00:19:57.170 --> 00:19:59.109
hand down, you have to delegate, you have to
00:19:59.109 --> 00:20:01.130
cancel things. And there's this, there's maybe
00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:04.470
some, some guilt that might plug into you there.
00:20:04.950 --> 00:20:07.289
And delegation is like a leadership one -on -one
00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:10.029
struggle anyway, for any leader, right? You know,
00:20:10.029 --> 00:20:12.029
whether you're want to do it all yourself or
00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:13.890
be the man or, you know, they don't do it as
00:20:13.890 --> 00:20:15.289
good as you, so you don't want to hand it off.
00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:18.329
But there's also this function, like you said,
00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.009
you trust your team and hand things off to your
00:20:21.009 --> 00:20:23.849
team. There's a general desire for people to
00:20:23.849 --> 00:20:28.049
want to be useful, to be needed, even in healthy
00:20:28.049 --> 00:20:30.190
ways, right? And so when you trust them with
00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:33.170
something, you allow the team to support you
00:20:33.170 --> 00:20:35.130
and the system and the culture. And we all know
00:20:35.130 --> 00:20:38.029
that that's beneficial. So there's this tension
00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:42.150
I want to talk about on leaders feeling guilty
00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:44.150
for not doing everything they're supposed to.
00:20:44.509 --> 00:20:46.809
in whatever way that looks like. And then, you
00:20:46.809 --> 00:20:48.710
know, there are people actually wanting to be
00:20:48.710 --> 00:20:51.230
trusted and wanting to be needed by the leader
00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:54.250
and how that can draw the team closer. Have you
00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:59.250
ever had that, those tensions in your position
00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:03.309
through your valleys? Well, I think I have maybe
00:21:03.309 --> 00:21:05.930
early on, especially whenever we were going through
00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:08.730
2020. That's sort of the chaos that was all that,
00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:10.730
you know, everybody was like, we don't have any
00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:13.190
idea. And when you're, you know, you've got the
00:21:13.190 --> 00:21:15.170
desk with your name on it, they're like, what
00:21:15.170 --> 00:21:18.609
are we doing? I'm like, shoot, I'm supposed to
00:21:18.609 --> 00:21:21.470
have all the answers. And when you feel, the
00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:23.329
more you feel like you have to have all of the
00:21:23.329 --> 00:21:26.329
answers, I think that actually hurts the trust
00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:30.009
within your team. We like to say that the answer
00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:32.990
is somewhere in the room. Right. So you have
00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.309
a thought that I may not have. Your brain works
00:21:35.309 --> 00:21:37.829
differently than mine does. And so I trust my
00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:41.190
team. So the answer, we have the answer as a
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:43.690
leadership. And so the answer is somewhere here
00:21:43.690 --> 00:21:46.190
in this room. It may not be in my brain, but
00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:50.470
what you give your spark may be like. That little
00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:53.190
kindling that then catches the next log that
00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:55.349
catches the next log that that gets us there.
00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:57.230
If you if you feel like you have to have all
00:21:57.230 --> 00:21:59.490
the answers, that's really, really lonely, lonely
00:21:59.490 --> 00:22:02.230
leadership. And you'll start to not trust anybody.
00:22:02.549 --> 00:22:05.009
You'll cut people off. You'll turn people away.
00:22:05.109 --> 00:22:07.309
And people will even wonder why they're a part
00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.450
of your team at all. I think when it comes to
00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:12.670
leadership, it's a lot like sort of finances.
00:22:12.710 --> 00:22:14.230
You've heard the phrase live within your means.
00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:16.839
Right. You know, you don't just because you can.
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.720
The bank says I can afford this house. That does
00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:22.779
not mean you need to buy that much house. You've
00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:24.619
got to live within your means, give margin for
00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:26.519
inflation and all kinds of that. I would also
00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:28.900
say that we need to lead within our means as
00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:31.960
well, just because you take on all of those things,
00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:35.559
just because you're you know, your degree is
00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:38.119
the bank that says you're allowed to do all of
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.700
these things. If you give that sort of 80 percent,
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:43.930
90 percent. And I'm not saying don't give your
00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:46.130
best. I'm saying give your best 90, give your
00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:49.049
best 80, and give yourself that space for the
00:22:49.049 --> 00:22:53.049
unexpected. That's not bad. That's not bad leadership.
00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:54.910
That's actually good leadership. That's an emergency
00:22:54.910 --> 00:22:58.309
leadership savings fund that you have stockpiled
00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:00.960
so when stuff hits. You're ready to pull from
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.259
that. And you're not, oh, no, there's no more.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:05.539
I've got no more change left in my pocket as
00:23:05.539 --> 00:23:08.059
a leader. You've got that stockpile. Now, you
00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:10.299
can overstock that, you know, and say, I'm not
00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:11.900
going to do anything. So when things go bad,
00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:14.680
I'm, you know, I'm ready. You have to balance
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:16.940
your, don't put all your eggs in one basket,
00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:18.779
so to speak, in that. So I would just say to
00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:21.339
lead within your means and set that example for
00:23:21.339 --> 00:23:23.799
your people. Because an organization that functions
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:28.359
really steadily at 80%. with this growth is a
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:30.500
lot better than the ones that spike and then
00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:32.819
drop and then spike and then drop that eventually
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:34.880
people stop. They're not going to hang out for
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.140
those, for those drops. They're going to, they're
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:39.559
going to go with the proven winners over, over
00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.420
a long haul. Man, great quotes there. Answer
00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:46.500
is somewhere in the room. So you're, you're,
00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.940
you take a role of a, of a facilitator, ask great
00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:52.680
questions, get those thoughts out there. Yeah.
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.000
Yeah. So my, my organization has elders. and
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.240
then staff. And I am a minister. I'm a preacher
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:02.240
here. But some preachers at some churches, they
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.259
would say, I am a non -voting elder. So they're
00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:07.900
like, we want you to have the title. But whenever
00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:10.700
it comes to make the decision, we as the eldership
00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:13.500
are going to vote. And I was recently with a
00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:16.059
group of ministers that all had that. I'm an
00:24:16.059 --> 00:24:18.339
elder who doesn't vote. I'm an elder who doesn't
00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:20.180
vote. I'm an elder who doesn't vote. And they
00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:21.599
said, what about you? And I was like, well, I
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.980
think I'm a voting non -elder. And they were
00:24:24.980 --> 00:24:26.279
like, what do you mean? I said, well, I mean,
00:24:26.299 --> 00:24:28.720
I'm listened to. I'm like an equal in this. I
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.480
don't have the title of an elder. That's because
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.460
that's not what they need from me at this moment.
00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:37.900
I'm a preacher, but they still consider me as
00:24:37.900 --> 00:24:39.859
an equal in the room. It's one of those things
00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:41.819
that if you have to have a title to throw around,
00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:43.819
your team's got a lot more stuff you need to
00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:47.119
work through. But whenever I said to these ministers
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.859
that I'm a sort of a voting non -elder because
00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:52.680
we all listen to each other equally, they...
00:24:52.859 --> 00:24:56.099
each said, I would take that over being somebody
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:58.519
that has the title without the ability to speak
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:02.039
into the situation. Wow, yeah. And it draws to
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.140
light the power of multiplication with people.
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.460
I always say that with the right humans, that
00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:11.980
one plus one doesn't equal two. Like one plus
00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:14.559
one equals nine, right? And so when you have
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.440
a room full of people that you, a team that you've
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:20.319
built and that you've grown together, like you've
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:22.099
grown, they've grown, and you've gone through
00:25:22.099 --> 00:25:24.799
difficulties and challenges together, then, I
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.440
mean, I would argue, like you said, that all
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:31.279
of those people added up together is an exponential,
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:34.200
like talk about rocket fuel concept, right? It
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:39.140
is an accelerator to... to overcoming, to optimizing,
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:42.680
to getting through, right? You mentioned earlier,
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:45.559
you're leading different layers of leadership
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.119
from the elders to the staff, and then obviously
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.880
the flock that you preach to. And this, you know,
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.240
we've talked about, you know, we could talk about
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.559
more in general leadership, how you would handle
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:03.799
those, but with the additional layer of when
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:05.920
things aren't optimal, right? When things aren't
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:10.700
going. they're not ideal. You're, you're pressed,
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:15.140
right? What is, what is your weekly leadership
00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:18.680
look like for those different layers? Cause like
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:20.660
you said, you're, you may be at, you may be in
00:26:20.660 --> 00:26:23.039
power saving mode. I feel like most of the leadership
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.539
stuff out there touches on how to just be a great
00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:28.220
leader, kind of assumes that everything's going
00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:32.220
awesome. Right. Right. So, and, and you're in
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:36.279
a unique space where you're responsible for multiple
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.900
layers, whereas maybe a CEO is going to just
00:26:38.900 --> 00:26:43.059
be responsible for the board and his direct reports
00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:44.740
underneath them. He's not going to be handling
00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:46.980
several layers deep. I think a minister is in
00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:49.180
a unique spot where you've got those multiple
00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:51.319
layers, but you're still dealing with the flock,
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.339
which might be classified as the employee base.
00:26:55.579 --> 00:26:58.619
Sure. I think one thing that I would do is make
00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:01.440
sure that there are levels to that leadership
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.019
dynamic. But that doesn't mean they have to be
00:27:05.019 --> 00:27:07.779
so isolated from each other that they don't have
00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:09.660
any idea what's going on in each of those layers.
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:11.779
So, for example, if something happens within
00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:15.460
the flock and I then need to be absent from one
00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:18.380
space, like maybe my staff space, so that could
00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:21.480
be over in the flock space. If the staff is unaware
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.599
of what I'm doing. there's no communication,
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.380
then they will make assumptions about why I'm
00:27:27.380 --> 00:27:29.880
not there. And so for the flock, if they know
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:32.119
they trust a high degree of trust in the leadership
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:34.400
because there's transparency, if something's
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.839
happening within the flock and I send somebody
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.859
else like a staff member or that means that should
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:43.079
not mean that it's any lesser, it means it's
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:44.779
still somebody, a part of the organization that's
00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:47.900
there to help. But they then know that it's because
00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:50.579
I am unavailable because I'm in another very
00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:54.200
important space. I've had people say, you know,
00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:56.519
we understand completely that you need to be
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.440
where you are doing something else. And so we
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.640
can handle this. And you watch them sort of rise
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:05.960
up and say, OK, there are leaders here. But I
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:09.960
think I need to instead of pulling him out of
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.210
a hospital room, I think I need to just. sort
00:28:13.210 --> 00:28:16.769
of man up and do this and, and then go, I, I,
00:28:16.789 --> 00:28:18.789
in the past where I would have asked for help,
00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:22.190
I figured out that I could do it. And I'm not
00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:24.490
going to sound like I'm, I'm really not trying
00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:26.430
to insult people at all, but it really is like
00:28:26.430 --> 00:28:28.869
children raising children where they're like,
00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:31.470
daddy, could you tie my shoes for me? And they're
00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:32.849
like, I think you've seen daddy tie your shoes
00:28:32.849 --> 00:28:35.769
enough. Why don't you try, try that for yourself?
00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:38.509
And then they don't. And I'm like, you did. Fantastic.
00:28:38.609 --> 00:28:41.109
So some things they tell me about on the backside.
00:28:41.410 --> 00:28:42.829
And they say, you know, I was thinking about
00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.450
calling you. But then I realized I probably can
00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:47.869
do this. And then they did it. And I got to celebrate
00:28:47.869 --> 00:28:51.390
with them. And they sort of realized that. Now,
00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:53.690
on the other side of that, there are times when
00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:56.910
people feel like they can't talk to me because
00:28:56.910 --> 00:29:00.309
of what we've gone through in those chaotic moments
00:29:00.309 --> 00:29:03.519
that were definitely not optimal moments. And
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.359
I try to reassure them. I say, you know, what
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.680
do you think I do with my problems? Because in
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.859
my realm, if I try to hold on to the flock's
00:29:12.859 --> 00:29:15.240
problems, the staff's problems, the leadership's
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.690
problems, and my problems. That's a problem.
00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:20.730
That's just a big problem. And I'm going to go
00:29:20.730 --> 00:29:23.950
under. And so for my context, I say I believe
00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:27.269
powerfully in prayer and laying things down at
00:29:27.269 --> 00:29:29.630
a higher authority. And so whenever people say,
00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:30.990
you know, I didn't want to bother you with this
00:29:30.990 --> 00:29:32.809
because I know you're going through this. I say,
00:29:32.849 --> 00:29:35.029
what do you think I do with my problems? I don't
00:29:35.029 --> 00:29:37.730
hold them. I take them somewhere every day. And
00:29:37.730 --> 00:29:39.750
so I tell you what, it's like I'm running an
00:29:39.750 --> 00:29:41.220
errand. It's like, I'm going to go drop this
00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:43.839
off at the post office. It does me no harm for
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.099
you to give me what you want me to drop off right
00:29:46.099 --> 00:29:48.680
there while I pray. And that's how I handle it.
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:53.700
And you do let people handle some things on their
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.240
own when they need to. Again, it kind of goes
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.420
back to having that discernment, a word aptly
00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.940
spoken. You say, I think you can do that. I believe
00:29:59.940 --> 00:30:01.759
in you. It's not because I don't want to be there
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:04.440
or even that I can't be there. Even if I could
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.460
be there and even if I wanted to be there. You
00:30:07.460 --> 00:30:09.380
can do that on your own, I believe in. You sort
00:30:09.380 --> 00:30:11.359
of give them that confidence and then watch them
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.059
go, oh, and you watch them defeat that thing.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:16.539
And like a mini leader is born and that makes
00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:18.799
them hungry for more. But then on the other side
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.539
of that, I don't, I still am remaining open,
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:25.359
saying you can tell me your things. I'm not that
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:28.299
fragile. It's not going to break me to know that
00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:29.920
you're there. As a matter of fact, whenever my
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.880
wife's in treatment, it's up by the hospital.
00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:35.099
And so while she's in treatment and she's sitting
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.890
there, you know, watching a show. And we've got,
00:30:37.890 --> 00:30:40.130
you know, an hour and a half on the drip. Okay,
00:30:40.190 --> 00:30:41.589
well, hospital is right over there. And I know
00:30:41.589 --> 00:30:43.109
that there are three people from our congregation
00:30:43.109 --> 00:30:45.809
there. And so then, and she's like, go for it.
00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.329
Because that's another person that understands
00:30:48.329 --> 00:30:51.450
that if I need to not be in this space, because
00:30:51.450 --> 00:30:53.890
everything is where it is, there's a team of
00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:56.690
nurses there, you know, watching her and everything's
00:30:56.690 --> 00:30:59.190
fine. Then I'm able to shift over into another
00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:01.250
space. And when you show up and they say, what
00:31:01.250 --> 00:31:02.970
are you doing here? I say, well, my wife's just
00:31:02.970 --> 00:31:06.789
next door. I've got some time. And they see that
00:31:06.789 --> 00:31:09.609
you carve out time for them. And so it's really
00:31:09.609 --> 00:31:12.509
trying to, while you're already there, while
00:31:12.509 --> 00:31:15.329
you're already in that space, see if there's
00:31:15.329 --> 00:31:17.049
any other thing you can do while you're waiting.
00:31:17.170 --> 00:31:19.509
Because a lot of times you're in a waiting chair
00:31:19.509 --> 00:31:22.230
and you just try to leverage anything. It's like
00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:24.250
whenever you're cleaning your house, you're like,
00:31:24.250 --> 00:31:25.869
all right, I'm already in this room. What else
00:31:25.869 --> 00:31:29.849
needs to be done while I'm already here? So you
00:31:29.849 --> 00:31:32.730
don't try to isolate. your problems from people,
00:31:32.789 --> 00:31:34.769
but when you show up in those, in your chaotic
00:31:34.769 --> 00:31:38.789
moments with a peace that you have, and they're
00:31:38.789 --> 00:31:41.589
almost like, how could you possibly be here when
00:31:41.589 --> 00:31:44.390
this is going on over here? I say, well, my family
00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:46.529
has peace because of what we really believe.
00:31:46.690 --> 00:31:49.509
And so I'm bringing that peace with you. I'm
00:31:49.509 --> 00:31:52.430
not adding to your chaos. If I, if I am in a,
00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:54.670
and you have to have self -awareness, if I am
00:31:54.670 --> 00:31:57.750
in a chaotic headspace, I cannot go into those
00:31:57.750 --> 00:31:59.730
other people's rooms because I'll just make the
00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:03.559
storm worse. But if I walk in and they're saying,
00:32:03.619 --> 00:32:07.980
something is in order, it doesn't mean that it's
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:15.079
fully resolved, but there is an order and a sense
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.940
of peace in that scenario. Peace multiplies.
00:32:18.859 --> 00:32:23.799
Yes, peace multiplies. Now, Eric, how long, how
00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:27.509
many years have you been in ministry? Well, this
00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:30.309
ministry in Mountain Home since 2008, so it'll
00:32:30.309 --> 00:32:33.430
be 18 years this March. 18 years. Okay, so in
00:32:33.430 --> 00:32:36.470
that, almost two decades of doing this, you know,
00:32:36.470 --> 00:32:38.990
from a green pea, and I like the word minister
00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:41.890
because it's a verb, right? It's a verb, yeah.
00:32:41.890 --> 00:32:43.289
It's what we do. It's something that you, yeah,
00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:45.029
like you said, you go to the hospital and you
00:32:45.029 --> 00:32:47.809
minister to those people. Now, I know you have
00:32:47.809 --> 00:32:51.410
the experience. of being a green pea that hasn't
00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:54.869
walked through the journeys that a lot of your
00:32:54.869 --> 00:32:57.829
flock had walked through in that first, especially
00:32:57.829 --> 00:33:01.210
first five years, I'd say probably. Yeah. How
00:33:01.210 --> 00:33:06.250
has ministering changed for you as your experience
00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:09.769
has grown? Like you minister from a different
00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:12.150
place now. You have, you're going to have, you
00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:14.660
know. You're going to have the members in your
00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:16.740
flock going through things very similar to what
00:33:16.740 --> 00:33:20.119
you're going through. Have you noticed, so two
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:22.579
parts, have you noticed how it changes how you
00:33:22.579 --> 00:33:25.680
minister? And then have you noticed how it has
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.339
changed how they receive it because they know
00:33:28.339 --> 00:33:32.619
it's not just lip service or you, because it
00:33:32.619 --> 00:33:36.450
comes from a place of experience? Yes. Yeah,
00:33:36.450 --> 00:33:39.970
what I used to do, I was very idealistic and
00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:41.849
I wasn't one of those leaders that thought I
00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:43.730
had the answers and everybody needed to do it
00:33:43.730 --> 00:33:47.430
my way. But I thought that there was some sort
00:33:47.430 --> 00:33:51.170
of equation, right? There's some sort of process
00:33:51.170 --> 00:33:54.210
that you can do and it's three easy steps. And
00:33:54.210 --> 00:33:56.390
all of these leadership books that you read are,
00:33:56.549 --> 00:33:59.250
hey, this is the way I've got the graph that.
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.180
If you take this quiz and all of these things,
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.420
we'll solve it for you. Just give us a monthly
00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:07.059
subscription of $99, right? And it's like, oh,
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:11.559
okay. But really, there's no plan for your people
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:16.179
like your plan for your people. Not other people's
00:34:16.179 --> 00:34:20.320
plan for their people, right? Not all. content
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.619
works in all contexts. And so I was taking all
00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:26.719
of these other people's thoughts and saying,
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:28.940
well, this is what worked in all these other
00:34:28.940 --> 00:34:31.659
places. I'll try to adapt it for these people,
00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:33.860
but they're completely different people as unique
00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:36.480
as a fingerprint and their situations, they experience
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.639
it completely differently. And so I realized
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.260
quickly, you cannot substitute just the years
00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:47.400
of experience in one place. I was taught. to
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:49.880
commit to at least four years. I started here
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.039
as the youth minister of this church to commit
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.940
to four years from like freshman year to senior
00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:57.579
year of high school for discipling a student
00:34:57.579 --> 00:35:00.019
because you have no idea if you leave every year
00:35:00.019 --> 00:35:03.400
or two, what type of a disciple or other help
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:05.760
you do for that time period. So I said, I don't
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.119
know, I'll get to four or five years. And that's
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:11.860
turned to 18. And I think that there's no substitute.
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.599
for experience in general. But whenever you have
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.820
experience in one specific place, there's a level
00:35:18.820 --> 00:35:22.760
of trust that can't be bought. And so we have
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:24.420
people at our church that have only been here
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:28.179
a year or two, but they already trust me at a
00:35:28.179 --> 00:35:31.000
level of somebody that has been with me longer
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:33.800
because we do have people that have been here
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:37.380
for the full 18 years. And the more they're like,
00:35:37.420 --> 00:35:40.039
we're telling you, this is leadership. team and
00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:43.019
the way we do things and the history, even my
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:46.320
predecessor, the spiritual care that has been
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.920
in this place. Imagine a church that has had
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.659
two senior ministers. The guy before me was here
00:35:51.659 --> 00:35:55.539
25 years. And I took over and my first full year
00:35:55.539 --> 00:35:58.159
was 2020. So tip of the hat to the guy who was
00:35:58.159 --> 00:35:59.579
like, you know what, I think it's my time to
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:01.480
be done. And he just sort of handed me the hot
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:07.079
potato that went out. But 25 years, and then...
00:36:07.469 --> 00:36:09.530
My first full year being 2020, so six years.
00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:11.289
And even then I had been the youth minister here
00:36:11.289 --> 00:36:14.530
for many years and connected with these parents
00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:17.170
that had kids that are now adults. And some of
00:36:17.170 --> 00:36:19.889
my former youth sponsors are now on my eldership
00:36:19.889 --> 00:36:23.210
team. That is consistency among leadership in
00:36:23.210 --> 00:36:25.489
an organization is huge. And people, when they
00:36:25.489 --> 00:36:28.190
come in and they know that history, they already
00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:32.050
buy in more than, okay, everybody, there's so
00:36:32.050 --> 00:36:35.090
much changeover. In this organization, I'm going
00:36:35.090 --> 00:36:37.349
to enter with a degree of skepticism instead
00:36:37.349 --> 00:36:40.429
of this. This organization has had a history
00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:43.889
of stability. It's amazing how many abandoned
00:36:43.889 --> 00:36:46.530
buildings you can see in this country that have
00:36:46.530 --> 00:36:48.510
a sign on them that says under new management,
00:36:48.630 --> 00:36:52.110
because that doesn't mean anything. You know,
00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:54.090
it was under new management, but that business
00:36:54.090 --> 00:36:56.690
still went under and they didn't have any. any
00:36:56.690 --> 00:36:58.969
time to take that off of the sign. The business
00:36:58.969 --> 00:37:01.130
is like constantly trying to say, we have a new
00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:02.630
leader. Everything's going to be better now.
00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:04.650
We have a new leader. It's like constantly. You
00:37:04.650 --> 00:37:07.329
just said, I can't trust this place. But to say,
00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:09.389
well, why don't businesses say we've been under
00:37:09.389 --> 00:37:11.829
the same management for 25 years? That sign to
00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:15.690
me is way more important. Wow. No, that's solid.
00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:17.969
We've been under the same. Yeah. No, I love that.
00:37:18.150 --> 00:37:19.809
I never thought of it that way. Because you always
00:37:19.809 --> 00:37:22.090
think like in with, out with the old, in with
00:37:22.090 --> 00:37:24.309
the new. And so many people look at that sign.
00:37:24.349 --> 00:37:26.570
They're like, oh. That place is going to be so
00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:29.610
much better now. Not necessarily. No, I usually
00:37:29.610 --> 00:37:31.349
look at those signs and I go, oh, they had a
00:37:31.349 --> 00:37:33.670
whole lot of problems last year. And somebody,
00:37:33.869 --> 00:37:35.849
they're like, we're going to be better from now
00:37:35.849 --> 00:37:39.550
on. But it's hard to change that. No, absolutely.
00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:42.030
No, that's a solid observation. I love that.
00:37:42.530 --> 00:37:45.369
It just happened. I was driving on my way here
00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:48.369
and I saw this old gas station in our town that
00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:51.269
has been completely, people buy it, they try
00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:53.789
to fix it up, but then they just, they give up
00:37:53.789 --> 00:37:56.449
on it. And the weeds. And the parking lot just
00:37:56.449 --> 00:37:58.829
keep getting taller and taller and taller. But
00:37:58.829 --> 00:38:02.150
there's this vinyl banner that says under new
00:38:02.150 --> 00:38:05.030
management, but the windows are boarded up. What
00:38:05.030 --> 00:38:09.989
an image. Yeah, it says a lot. And then the organization
00:38:09.989 --> 00:38:12.250
that I've been in, ultimately, I believe it's
00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:13.929
been under the same management for all of time.
00:38:14.070 --> 00:38:17.030
So I'm just trying to just be do right by the
00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:22.199
real person in charge. So how in a time where
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.619
I think general statistics will typically comment
00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:28.840
that people stay at jobs much less than they
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.280
used to, right? When you compare the boomer generations
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.280
all the way down to the ones that are entering
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:37.500
the workforce, it seems like that's pretty, from
00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:40.139
an average statistic, pretty accurate, right?
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:44.219
That younger people tend to job hop more and
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:46.940
those kinds of things. So being a millennial
00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:49.800
like you, how is it? How has it been, you know,
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.780
because so many people that we grew up with have
00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:53.940
had so many different jobs. I mean, I've had
00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:56.559
a lot of different jobs up until the last 14
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:59.820
years. But before that, it was very, very changed
00:38:59.820 --> 00:39:04.019
a lot. Yeah. But especially adding the layer
00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:06.579
of the challenges you've experienced personally,
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:10.980
remaining at the same place, been a type of anchor
00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:16.000
for you for stability? It has. And we are in
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.900
a small town, about 12 ,000, 13 ,000 people.
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:22.400
And so the longer you're in that space, the more
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.079
opportunity you have to reach out to the community.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:27.880
Like you mentioned that layer, there's your board,
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:29.760
there's your staff, there's the people that you
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:31.800
serve. But then there's these other people out
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.360
there that have heard of your culture, they've
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:35.960
heard of your organization, but they're not really
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:38.059
a part of it. They're kind of on this, like maybe
00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:41.199
the front step or hearing about the reputation
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:45.440
of your place. So being here 18 years, you know,
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.179
I'm not saying like unknown in the town. That's
00:39:47.179 --> 00:39:49.460
not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when other
00:39:49.460 --> 00:39:54.079
places go through that sort of changeover so
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.659
consistently, so frequently, eventually people
00:39:56.659 --> 00:39:59.159
go, you know, we've been on our fourth leader
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.000
and this place over here seems to be having this,
00:40:02.019 --> 00:40:04.300
the same leadership. I don't fault people for
00:40:04.300 --> 00:40:06.929
leaving. their organizations if they need to.
00:40:06.989 --> 00:40:08.849
Because sometimes, for example, taking care of
00:40:08.849 --> 00:40:11.630
parents, we've got to go. And organizations completely
00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:14.949
understand, you need to go back home. We understand
00:40:14.949 --> 00:40:17.889
that we don't want it. So not everybody who leaves
00:40:17.889 --> 00:40:21.650
is doing anything wrong. But the transition that
00:40:21.650 --> 00:40:24.489
people feel emotionally, whether it is for a
00:40:24.489 --> 00:40:27.070
good reason or a not so good reason that the
00:40:27.070 --> 00:40:29.429
leader leaves, they still feel that way to transition
00:40:29.429 --> 00:40:32.619
the same. Even if they're like their tears are
00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:35.659
happy because their friend is going somewhere
00:40:35.659 --> 00:40:38.340
else or their tears are sad because they're heartbroken
00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:40.679
about what happened. There's still tears. There's
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:44.219
still like this heartache of transition. So being
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:47.079
in one place for a long time has allowed for
00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:51.719
us to develop relationships deeply and quickly.
00:40:52.909 --> 00:40:57.690
And the more our roots are dug down deep here,
00:40:57.769 --> 00:41:00.130
the more we're able to go through a lot of storms
00:41:00.130 --> 00:41:03.690
together. Because you've built that foundation.
00:41:04.449 --> 00:41:07.010
Yeah, absolutely. It would take something very
00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:10.429
massive to be uprooted at this point. And I'm
00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:13.269
not asking for that or anything, but I could
00:41:13.269 --> 00:41:16.630
see absolutely me staying in this same organization
00:41:16.630 --> 00:41:19.090
in the same town for a long time. And it's in
00:41:19.090 --> 00:41:20.849
Mountain Home, Arkansas, and it's amazing people.
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.320
are you still in Arkansas? And I'm like, I need
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.940
you to understand this is not a prison, right?
00:41:27.019 --> 00:41:29.619
I'm not trapped here. This is a beautiful place
00:41:29.619 --> 00:41:32.179
with great people. We've built a life here. And
00:41:32.179 --> 00:41:34.699
that's what I mean by whenever leadership is
00:41:34.699 --> 00:41:36.719
investing in the people around them, you really
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.559
are connecting yourself to those people, but
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:41.760
you're actually getting back down into the deep
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.920
parts of the foundation for your organization
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.300
as a whole. Because just because you're going
00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:48.320
through something chaotic. your organization
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.480
may go through something chaotic. Like whenever
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:54.539
my first full year was 2020, I went through something
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:59.260
chaotic. And I was glad that I was the leader
00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:01.800
at that time because I had already been here
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:05.699
since 2008. And so whenever we made decisions,
00:42:06.329 --> 00:42:08.769
It was a familiar voice saying, we're going to
00:42:08.769 --> 00:42:10.849
go about it this way. I don't know anybody who's
00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:13.849
doing it perfectly, but we can do it connectedly
00:42:13.849 --> 00:42:15.869
because I'd been here long enough that I wasn't.
00:42:15.889 --> 00:42:18.309
I mean, somebody coming in in their first year
00:42:18.309 --> 00:42:20.250
with no trust really within the organization,
00:42:20.469 --> 00:42:25.449
having this 2020 level chaos, that could have
00:42:25.449 --> 00:42:27.989
chewed that person up and spit them out. But
00:42:27.989 --> 00:42:30.530
saying, you guys know us. We're the same leader.
00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:33.630
We're just same leaders, different capacity.
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:36.559
But they know that voice. And so they'll follow
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:40.380
a familiar voice through something chaotic, more
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:42.840
so than a voice that is unfamiliar. Because they're
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.000
like, you know what? In times of chaos, what
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.559
I'm really looking for is what's familiar. And
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:50.940
so being a consistent, good leader in those sort
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:54.219
of peace times, then whenever the chaotic times
00:42:54.219 --> 00:42:57.599
come, they'll go with that familiar voice in
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.190
an instant. That's so true. Just to get fuel
00:43:01.190 --> 00:43:04.969
to the hot, this lady, her great grandchild has
00:43:04.969 --> 00:43:06.909
just been born in Little Rock a few weeks ago,
00:43:06.949 --> 00:43:10.269
and he is not doing well. And so she calls me
00:43:10.269 --> 00:43:14.269
fairly frequently. Her whole family, we're praying
00:43:14.269 --> 00:43:16.409
for them. She messaged me on my way here, and
00:43:16.409 --> 00:43:18.849
I said, I'll be praying on my way. I'll update
00:43:18.849 --> 00:43:20.809
the rest of the prayer team, all of that. And
00:43:20.809 --> 00:43:23.650
as she's called me, I'm sure that since I didn't
00:43:23.650 --> 00:43:26.809
answer, that she's not like, you know, she's
00:43:26.809 --> 00:43:30.440
not panicking because she knows. The many other
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:33.539
times I do answer and we talk for 20 minutes,
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:36.579
it's because I value her. But just the fact that
00:43:36.579 --> 00:43:40.000
I missed that one call is not going to end our
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.219
relationship with each other. Because of the
00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:46.820
investment. She knows there's a real reason why
00:43:46.820 --> 00:43:50.119
he didn't answer. No, that's true. So in the
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.820
language of investment, I think a lot of times
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:56.940
people, like you said earlier, people are after
00:43:56.940 --> 00:44:00.420
those. These are the top three things or the
00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:03.320
real culture where it's like 10 things you need
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:07.880
to know about leadership, right? And so I find
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.659
that a lot of things discussed on this show are
00:44:12.659 --> 00:44:16.670
long plays, right? Yeah, absolutely. That episode
00:44:16.670 --> 00:44:19.710
about gratitude was, you know, you need to do
00:44:19.710 --> 00:44:23.909
this for a daily habit at least 90 days before
00:44:23.909 --> 00:44:27.289
you really start seeing any change in your brain
00:44:27.289 --> 00:44:30.150
rewiring, those kinds of things. In our episode
00:44:30.150 --> 00:44:33.230
about marriage with Ashley, it was these are
00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:36.489
these micro investments that you make that pay
00:44:36.489 --> 00:44:40.429
off in the long run over time. Leadership, obviously,
00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:43.760
18 years is a super long time. It sounds like
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:47.400
community is one of the one of the deepest things
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.599
that that keeps coming through in this conversation.
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:53.760
And I know it's frustrating to listeners who,
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:55.820
you know, let's say they're in they're in their
00:44:55.820 --> 00:44:58.420
30s, 40s, maybe even 50s. And they're like, I
00:44:58.420 --> 00:45:03.880
don't have I have not I've not curated a community
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:07.179
that I think that sounds like that. Let's put
00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:10.539
it that way. Yeah. So what are some practical
00:45:10.539 --> 00:45:13.320
things? I mean, you've built community over time
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:15.960
in multiple ways, in multiple contexts. What
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.000
are some practical things you can give our audience
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.440
of if they don't have anything like that? How
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.980
can they start building that foundation? Yeah,
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.400
it's hard whenever you are starving for community,
00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:30.599
but community cooks at the pace of a crockpot,
00:45:30.739 --> 00:45:34.199
you know, and you're really hungry right now.
00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:37.789
You start to settle for some of those other things.
00:45:37.869 --> 00:45:41.769
I would just advise patience. I know that your
00:45:41.769 --> 00:45:44.969
soul is hungering for that connection and that
00:45:44.969 --> 00:45:48.230
community. But if you try to force it, you're
00:45:48.230 --> 00:45:52.010
just going to ruin the meal because it wasn't
00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:56.130
time yet. And so I would say trust. You can even
00:45:56.130 --> 00:45:59.869
have a community within yourself. Okay, so this
00:45:59.869 --> 00:46:02.199
is going to sound like New Age. But I really
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:03.920
don't mean it that way. I just my thoughts are
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:07.079
with me. Like I talk to myself and what I say
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.039
about myself, I start to believe about myself.
00:46:09.139 --> 00:46:12.300
Right. And so so whenever I start saying things
00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:15.579
like I'll be OK, this is this is going to be
00:46:15.579 --> 00:46:18.739
fine. This is not going to take me down. I'm
00:46:18.739 --> 00:46:21.880
going to get through this personally. When I
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:23.820
start to say those things, I'm talking to myself.
00:46:23.900 --> 00:46:25.920
It's like a little appetizer, right? Little chips
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:27.880
and salsa before the meal that's taking forever
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.329
to cook. comes out and you just say, all right,
00:46:30.349 --> 00:46:33.329
I'm just going to just say what I know to be
00:46:33.329 --> 00:46:35.909
true about myself in this moment. Because if
00:46:35.909 --> 00:46:39.269
you just listen to your cravings, then your cravings
00:46:39.269 --> 00:46:41.650
will absolutely control you. And you're not leading.
00:46:41.730 --> 00:46:45.469
You're not leading yourself. But it's really
00:46:45.469 --> 00:46:47.989
hard for a starving person to have table manners
00:46:47.989 --> 00:46:50.210
whenever the food, the community finally starts
00:46:50.210 --> 00:46:52.230
to show up and they start grabbing it all for
00:46:52.230 --> 00:46:54.610
themselves. It's like, oh, who invited this guy,
00:46:54.710 --> 00:46:57.260
you know, to the cookout? Yeah, it's like you,
00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.980
whenever that community starts to happen, you
00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:03.619
need to appropriately take the portions. Maybe
00:47:03.619 --> 00:47:04.980
it's because it's getting close to lunch that
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:06.679
I've moved to a food analogy from a computer
00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:09.760
analogy earlier, but it really is like, you know,
00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:12.559
okay, the community is starting to really get
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:14.519
to that good temperature. We can start sharing
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.800
it. Take a little, pass it on to the next person.
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:19.860
Let everybody start to get the community and
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:21.780
there's going to be enough. It'll come back around.
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:25.050
But the moment somebody takes. We've got a fresh
00:47:25.050 --> 00:47:26.829
batch of community. I'm going to make it all
00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:29.889
about me. You just made it so that the next time
00:47:29.889 --> 00:47:31.909
we try this, it's going to take even longer to
00:47:31.909 --> 00:47:33.389
make because people aren't going to trust the
00:47:33.389 --> 00:47:39.690
process. Patience. It's patience. And honestly,
00:47:39.889 --> 00:47:41.789
this is a word that I don't like and I don't
00:47:41.789 --> 00:47:46.050
wish it upon anybody, but suffering well. It's
00:47:46.050 --> 00:47:51.190
amazing how much community is established when...
00:47:51.630 --> 00:47:54.989
People are going through the thick of it. That's
00:47:54.989 --> 00:47:58.809
why you have warriors that weep decades later
00:47:58.809 --> 00:48:02.329
at the funeral of people that they see every
00:48:02.329 --> 00:48:05.329
once in a while. But it's because they went through
00:48:05.329 --> 00:48:08.210
something together that was so cementing, so
00:48:08.210 --> 00:48:10.349
solidifying. They're wearing the same badges
00:48:10.349 --> 00:48:14.690
that they earned from that battle, and that sticks
00:48:14.690 --> 00:48:19.269
with them forever. So I wish that community was
00:48:19.269 --> 00:48:23.780
really just... accelerated in times of success.
00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:27.639
Those are times of enjoyment, and you can sit
00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:30.219
back and absolutely enjoy what your hard work
00:48:30.219 --> 00:48:33.079
has brought you to. But really, if you want community
00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:36.059
that gets to those good times, you're going to
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:38.079
have to go through hard times. Hard times are
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:41.440
really what really bring people together. And
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:44.300
then whenever the good times come, as a leader,
00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:47.489
you have to Just because people didn't go through
00:48:47.489 --> 00:48:49.150
that particular struggle. There are people at
00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:51.409
our church now that weren't with us in 2020,
00:48:51.690 --> 00:48:54.349
right? But you can't have them competing like,
00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:57.570
well, we're the 2020 people. We were in the foxhole
00:48:57.570 --> 00:48:59.570
and you guys are just, you're here in peacetime.
00:48:59.849 --> 00:49:02.110
Don't do that because you're going to actually
00:49:02.110 --> 00:49:04.909
create another hard time. Just they're there.
00:49:05.070 --> 00:49:06.650
They're a part of your organization. You can
00:49:06.650 --> 00:49:08.429
say, hey, we're glad you're here. We went through
00:49:08.429 --> 00:49:11.829
this so you don't have to. so that you can enjoy
00:49:11.829 --> 00:49:15.190
this what parent says to their kids well i grew
00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:18.070
up poor so and or i grew up with all these struggles
00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:20.030
i have to make sure to hand them off to you so
00:49:20.030 --> 00:49:22.550
you can have that's trauma dumping right so you
00:49:22.550 --> 00:49:25.590
say i want to invite you into a space where we
00:49:25.590 --> 00:49:28.730
have done this work so that you can enjoy these
00:49:28.730 --> 00:49:31.230
and just be thankful for it don't create competing
00:49:31.230 --> 00:49:33.329
cultures just because you're trying to relive
00:49:33.329 --> 00:49:36.929
your war history days is to say this we went
00:49:36.929 --> 00:49:38.630
we're all going to go through this guess what
00:49:38.630 --> 00:49:41.119
we're preparing you in this community, ingraining
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:42.920
you in this community so that when the next one
00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.519
hits, we can trust that we're all going to be
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:51.199
back to back, ready to go with each other. No,
00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:54.739
I agree. And I think the way you phrased that
00:49:54.739 --> 00:49:57.239
made me think of, there are some, there's a,
00:49:57.380 --> 00:49:59.440
I mean, one particular way stands out that you
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:04.079
can kind of manufacture this catalyst of suffering
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:09.019
and how it can create. depth and community and
00:50:09.019 --> 00:50:12.380
like so i do crossfit right and that means i
00:50:12.380 --> 00:50:13.960
have to tell everybody which is why it shows
00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:17.860
up in every episode but i thought about that
00:50:17.860 --> 00:50:20.199
like you said that there i've noticed over the
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:22.019
last eight years of doing it i mean there's a
00:50:22.019 --> 00:50:25.559
reason why group activities like this that aren't
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:28.860
physically enjoyable per se that that are a type
00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:32.920
of suffering albeit willingly that uh that people
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:34.960
subject themselves to alongside other people
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.150
that bonds them And there have been times where
00:50:38.150 --> 00:50:40.849
like, man, I'm an introvert by heart. And sometimes
00:50:40.849 --> 00:50:43.309
meeting new people is tough. And then getting
00:50:43.309 --> 00:50:46.550
to getting to an area of depth can be challenging.
00:50:46.730 --> 00:50:49.570
And and I also don't like small talk. So I don't
00:50:49.570 --> 00:50:52.289
like the process of getting, you know, getting
00:50:52.289 --> 00:50:55.269
to the deep with all the stuff that I don't care
00:50:55.269 --> 00:50:58.369
about. And so I've noticed like over the years,
00:50:58.409 --> 00:51:00.429
I'm like, man, these people that I work out with
00:51:00.429 --> 00:51:05.050
on the regular become like I've like there's
00:51:05.050 --> 00:51:08.130
this there's this bond that's formed. very quickly.
00:51:08.389 --> 00:51:12.869
So if you're hungry for community and you want
00:51:12.869 --> 00:51:16.510
a microwave to try this with, I think that's
00:51:16.510 --> 00:51:19.510
something, you know, go to a, you know, it doesn't
00:51:19.510 --> 00:51:21.110
have to be CrossFit, it can be a yoga class,
00:51:21.190 --> 00:51:23.730
it can be some sort of fitness class where there's
00:51:23.730 --> 00:51:25.250
multiple people going through the same thing.
00:51:25.389 --> 00:51:29.889
And you can leverage this suffering well together
00:51:29.889 --> 00:51:33.780
concept because you'll I would say for me, even
00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:36.800
even four weeks with the same people on, you
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:38.780
know, even even just two or three days a week
00:51:38.780 --> 00:51:42.480
can create something really, really complex and
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:46.039
rewarding that that can then lead that can then
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:49.079
start to build certain levels of foundation of
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:51.360
community for you. Yeah. And it doesn't have
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.960
to be when people think across it, you know,
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:54.980
they think of people that are really. good in
00:51:54.980 --> 00:51:57.000
any shape like you, it can be something like
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:00.119
a walking buddy. And I would even invite you
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:02.179
to these people just to think outside of the
00:52:02.179 --> 00:52:04.099
box. Like, don't try to think of somebody that's
00:52:04.099 --> 00:52:06.920
your own age group. There's a church in our town
00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:09.079
that has like a walking track in their family
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:11.480
life center and everybody just goes and they
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:14.849
walk around. Imagine. Just being for your own
00:52:14.849 --> 00:52:16.610
health, walking is good for you. But suddenly
00:52:16.610 --> 00:52:18.570
you've got like four grandmas, like this walking
00:52:18.570 --> 00:52:20.269
group, and they're just like, we love you. It's
00:52:20.269 --> 00:52:21.530
all great. Next thing you know, you're just,
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:23.369
you know, they're knitting you socks and all
00:52:23.369 --> 00:52:24.570
this kind of stuff. And you're like, they're
00:52:24.570 --> 00:52:27.110
like, what can we do for you? If you only have
00:52:27.110 --> 00:52:29.909
people in your life that are in the same station
00:52:29.909 --> 00:52:32.690
of life as you, you're not. any other outside
00:52:32.690 --> 00:52:34.110
information. We've talked about going through
00:52:34.110 --> 00:52:36.630
all of this to get this wisdom. There are people
00:52:36.630 --> 00:52:39.170
who have gone through these things that are older.
00:52:39.269 --> 00:52:41.030
They've raised kids. They've sent them out into
00:52:41.030 --> 00:52:42.949
the world. And so if you just surround yourself
00:52:42.949 --> 00:52:45.090
with peers that also have teenagers and you're
00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:47.289
just talking about isn't teenage life difficult,
00:52:47.389 --> 00:52:49.789
but you don't have anybody that's on that next
00:52:49.789 --> 00:52:52.030
level who says, buckle up, it'll be worth it.
00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:54.250
It'll be great. You may have a hard time in the
00:52:54.250 --> 00:52:56.090
middle. Your relationship's going to go through
00:52:56.090 --> 00:52:59.570
some hard times, but they come back. And to hear
00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:02.280
that assurance is good. There was something else
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:05.780
I wanted to say about thriving in chaos and these
00:53:05.780 --> 00:53:09.179
things that are not optimal. There is a huge
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:13.099
difference between being able to survive in your
00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:16.820
own chaos that you create and being able to survive
00:53:16.820 --> 00:53:20.380
in the chaos, external chaos, right? So some
00:53:20.380 --> 00:53:26.099
people, they are the arsonist who puts out fires,
00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:29.130
right? They're like, I create the chaos. and
00:53:29.130 --> 00:53:32.110
then I fix it, and it works for me, right? I
00:53:32.110 --> 00:53:34.909
can survive in the chaos that I create. You're
00:53:34.909 --> 00:53:38.389
not really surviving, thriving like you think
00:53:38.389 --> 00:53:40.710
you are. And all you're doing is passing that
00:53:40.710 --> 00:53:43.389
chaos on to other people. And you can tell if
00:53:43.389 --> 00:53:45.769
you've got high turnover in your organization,
00:53:46.130 --> 00:53:48.730
people, or distance in relationships, people
00:53:48.730 --> 00:53:50.909
that thought they could trust you, and suddenly
00:53:50.909 --> 00:53:52.550
like, oh, we don't really get together that much
00:53:52.550 --> 00:53:54.670
anymore, that sort of thing. It's probably...
00:53:54.909 --> 00:53:57.710
You need to self -examine. I'm thriving in chaos,
00:53:57.889 --> 00:53:59.809
but it's the chaos that I'm making so that I
00:53:59.809 --> 00:54:02.789
can step in and solve it. That's a completely
00:54:02.789 --> 00:54:04.710
different type of chaos. And that's one that
00:54:04.710 --> 00:54:07.869
distances and disintegrates. It's not one that
00:54:07.869 --> 00:54:10.309
builds any sort of trust and cohesiveness within
00:54:10.309 --> 00:54:12.769
your organization. So not all chaos is created
00:54:12.769 --> 00:54:15.570
equal. We can still feel it. It's like a controlled
00:54:15.570 --> 00:54:17.289
experiment. I'm going to create this problem.
00:54:17.409 --> 00:54:20.860
It may not be intentionally. If you lack self
00:54:20.860 --> 00:54:22.880
-awareness, you may be inadvertently causing
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.079
problems that you're going to step in and fix
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:28.099
so that you get the dopamine hit. That doesn't
00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:31.340
connect to anybody else's brain. Suddenly they're
00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:34.639
just worn out. We went through this, but I fixed
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:38.500
it. Doesn't anybody like me now? No. They know
00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:41.440
deep down you started that problem. That's why
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:43.320
this song started, We Didn't Start the Fire.
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:46.659
That's a very deep leadership song if you hear
00:54:46.659 --> 00:54:48.570
it. It's like, I didn't start it. But I'm going
00:54:48.570 --> 00:54:51.429
to fix it. Then people go, you're great. Versus
00:54:51.429 --> 00:54:53.809
I started this problem because I was not aware
00:54:53.809 --> 00:54:57.110
of my faults, but I'm going to fix it. They don't
00:54:57.110 --> 00:54:58.309
really pat you on the back. They're like, well,
00:54:58.389 --> 00:55:01.530
good. You should fix your own problems. Why would
00:55:01.530 --> 00:55:03.710
I pat you on the back for fixing your own chaos?
00:55:03.909 --> 00:55:06.909
So that not all chaos is created equal. That's
00:55:06.909 --> 00:55:09.130
true. And outside of leadership, we all know,
00:55:09.130 --> 00:55:11.929
you know, those people that are just high drama
00:55:11.929 --> 00:55:16.019
factor, right? High drama or high anxiety. And
00:55:16.019 --> 00:55:17.860
sometimes when you look at that, you're like,
00:55:17.900 --> 00:55:21.840
in that case, this is self -created. This is
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:25.900
self -generated. And not everyone even knows
00:55:25.900 --> 00:55:27.760
how to fix their own problems, right? So some
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:29.739
are just drowning. But you look at it and you're
00:55:29.739 --> 00:55:32.780
like, man, this is a circumstance of your own
00:55:32.780 --> 00:55:34.659
creation. And like you said, that doesn't build
00:55:34.659 --> 00:55:36.840
community. That actually builds distance because
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:41.679
people are like, this person is too much. What
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:44.079
they end up doing is building a sandbox around
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:46.539
that leader and then let that leader build his
00:55:46.539 --> 00:55:48.960
own little sandcastles. And then they come in
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:51.059
like, good job. He's like, I'm doing great. That
00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:53.159
is not a long -lasting leadership. They really,
00:55:53.179 --> 00:55:55.139
they're like, just put him in that space or her
00:55:55.139 --> 00:55:58.519
in that space. Let them just do what they do.
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.980
We'll do the real work around them and the board
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:04.460
won't know. We'll all keep our jobs or whatever
00:56:04.460 --> 00:56:08.260
the case may be. That may still accomplish some
00:56:08.260 --> 00:56:11.550
goals. But it's way better for there to be a
00:56:11.550 --> 00:56:14.650
level of trust and integration within all of
00:56:14.650 --> 00:56:17.349
the levels from the top down. It's really bad
00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:21.369
when the people that are the direct reports are
00:56:21.369 --> 00:56:24.289
protecting the leader from their own personality
00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:27.110
because they're not aware, but they're in authority.
00:56:27.869 --> 00:56:31.260
And I've seen that also get... get bitter to
00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:34.519
get sour right where you can see you know sometimes
00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:36.679
you'll see it in middle management or even with
00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:39.300
the employees that they they have some some type
00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:42.119
of self -awareness where they're like it's it
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:44.800
doesn't matter if the boss is here or not we're
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:47.360
the ones that run it you know like they almost
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:51.159
have this like you know their dialogue is like
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:52.619
it's like hey where's the boss and they're like
00:56:52.619 --> 00:56:54.400
it doesn't i don't know and it doesn't matter
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:58.119
because yeah yeah yeah Leader, there is a group
00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:02.519
chat about you that you're not in. It exists.
00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:05.780
And you've got to be okay with it existing because
00:57:05.780 --> 00:57:08.900
that's fine. You don't need to be in all of that.
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:11.980
But hopefully they're saying things that are...
00:57:12.269 --> 00:57:14.849
that are true and good. And hey, I know they
00:57:14.849 --> 00:57:17.289
kind of had a rough day, but we know we can handle
00:57:17.289 --> 00:57:20.010
this. That's okay. But if they're starting to
00:57:20.010 --> 00:57:22.250
say, well, we all know so -and -so can't do it.
00:57:22.250 --> 00:57:24.929
So what are we going to do? That's a problem.
00:57:25.110 --> 00:57:27.670
So don't let that group chat be all about your
00:57:27.670 --> 00:57:31.210
inefficiencies. Another question I had for you
00:57:31.210 --> 00:57:33.829
is when the storm gets the strongest, are the
00:57:33.829 --> 00:57:36.969
things that you have to stop doing to kind of
00:57:36.969 --> 00:57:40.380
simplify and reduce things down? Is there any
00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:43.280
process that you go through of like, in this
00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:46.659
time, in this season, I need to scale back? Do
00:57:46.659 --> 00:57:49.039
you have any process like that to get through?
00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.659
I would say you have to have that process built
00:57:53.659 --> 00:57:58.199
up over years as you add things. So whenever
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:01.019
we're in these times where everything seems to
00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:03.000
be calm and fine and we're adding things, maybe
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.500
I'm on the board of this organization or I volunteer
00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:07.780
over here, all of these things, they need to
00:58:07.780 --> 00:58:11.519
be placed. in an importance category from the
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:14.039
onset. You don't just throw them all in the same
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:17.059
closet, right? You have to go through the process
00:58:17.059 --> 00:58:19.460
of sorting them out as you're in the middle of
00:58:19.460 --> 00:58:22.619
the chaotic moment. But if you know this is tertiary,
00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:26.260
this is secondary, this is primary, as you acquire
00:58:26.260 --> 00:58:29.000
these things, whenever the storm comes, you know
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:31.300
exactly what you need to cut so that it doesn't
00:58:31.300 --> 00:58:33.420
sink your organization first and foremost. You
00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:35.280
have those things all ready to go, so you're
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.940
not trying to make that decision while you're
00:58:36.940 --> 00:58:41.050
in that mode. of what goes as soon as that's
00:58:41.050 --> 00:58:44.929
a part of your organization. That reminds me
00:58:44.929 --> 00:58:48.510
of one of my favorite systems that the Navy SEALs
00:58:48.510 --> 00:58:51.550
use of prioritize and execute, right? So oftentimes
00:58:51.550 --> 00:58:55.699
people... Even in your daily to do list, you
00:58:55.699 --> 00:58:57.980
know, you're like, man, I go into the day. I
00:58:57.980 --> 00:59:01.119
have 10 left over from yesterday. All the interruptions
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:03.019
that are going to stack into my day that I don't
00:59:03.019 --> 00:59:06.940
even know about. I end the day with 30 and I
00:59:06.940 --> 00:59:09.840
and I actually got 20 done. But you don't see
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:13.699
that. Right. And so they always use the prioritize
00:59:13.699 --> 00:59:16.300
and execute. And that doesn't insinuate that
00:59:16.300 --> 00:59:19.159
you get everything done. But it makes it to where
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:21.519
you're sorting in that priority order, what's
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:23.940
primary. Okay, these things need to be done first.
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:27.079
And then also, like you said, when you're looking
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:32.340
to cut, what is at the bottom and what to save
00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:35.260
your, that word you used earlier, margin, such
00:59:35.260 --> 00:59:38.360
a critical word. When your margin thing thins
00:59:38.360 --> 00:59:40.300
out, what are the things that are going to free
00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:42.360
up that margin for you that you've sorted that
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:44.829
way? And it's important that as you add them,
00:59:44.929 --> 00:59:46.750
like, you know, in your mind, if something happens,
00:59:46.829 --> 00:59:48.989
this is going to be the first to go, but you
00:59:48.989 --> 00:59:51.949
don't treat it that way while you're, while you're
00:59:51.949 --> 00:59:53.369
in it. Right. Like you don't show up and be like,
00:59:53.369 --> 00:59:55.949
well, it isn't even that important. I'm going
00:59:55.949 --> 00:59:57.670
to cut bait at the first chance. You know, you
00:59:57.670 --> 01:00:00.909
don't do that. But then, but then whenever the,
01:00:00.929 --> 01:00:04.059
everybody. The chaos happens and it can be very
01:00:04.059 --> 01:00:05.699
public or even private. It doesn't have to be
01:00:05.699 --> 01:00:07.599
public. It can be something that you just have
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.179
a close circle that knows about. Whenever you
01:00:10.179 --> 01:00:12.880
leave those outside things that were the first
01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.739
to go, they're not glad you're gone. You know,
01:00:15.739 --> 01:00:18.360
they're like, I never really cared anyway. So
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:20.239
you still have to show up in those spaces as
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.380
you can. It's just really self -preservation.
01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:24.380
Your body does this. If you're out in the freezing
01:00:24.380 --> 01:00:26.400
cold, your body goes, you know what? Counting
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:28.539
to 10 is not that important. We're going to lose
01:00:28.539 --> 01:00:30.960
our fingers. Because the blood needs to go to
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:33.599
a more important place. This is a natural order
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:37.619
of things. And nobody wants to consider. So that
01:00:37.619 --> 01:00:40.679
then is true whenever you get dropped by somebody,
01:00:40.900 --> 01:00:43.840
right? You get cut out by somebody. They're going
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:45.440
through something and they just don't have time
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:47.699
for you. And you're that first finger that gets
01:00:47.699 --> 01:00:50.460
chopped off. So there's more blood to that person's
01:00:50.460 --> 01:00:53.780
more important aspects. You can't take that personally
01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:56.800
because. You're just proving why you got cut
01:00:56.800 --> 01:00:58.860
off in the first place. Because it's like, yeah,
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.420
exactly. That's why you're gone. Because I have
01:01:02.420 --> 01:01:05.420
to manage what I'm going through and maintain
01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:09.099
my margin. And you're over there proving why
01:01:09.099 --> 01:01:13.539
I let you go. That's right. That's right. I love
01:01:13.539 --> 01:01:18.619
what you said about the multi -generational aspects
01:01:18.619 --> 01:01:21.599
of community. Yeah, yeah. It made me think about
01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:25.000
how... Now, this isn't suffering doesn't always
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:26.800
suffering and challenges don't always work this
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:29.420
way in that, like, as you age, they get more
01:01:29.420 --> 01:01:33.480
severe. But there's this concept where your past
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:37.539
challenges that you make it through your, you
01:01:37.539 --> 01:01:39.940
know, whether we want to call it climbing a mountain
01:01:39.940 --> 01:01:42.539
or getting through the valley, they prepare you
01:01:42.539 --> 01:01:45.239
for what's next. Right. And these these combinations.
01:01:45.820 --> 01:01:48.210
But, you know, the things that. you know, a lot
01:01:48.210 --> 01:01:50.389
of kids worry about in high school that are paramount
01:01:50.389 --> 01:01:53.409
and that being, you know, someone older can come
01:01:53.409 --> 01:01:57.090
alongside and, and, and not minimize or make
01:01:57.090 --> 01:01:59.869
fun of those things, you know, acknowledge that
01:01:59.869 --> 01:02:02.869
in that context they would be and what they've
01:02:02.869 --> 01:02:05.349
experienced in life so far, probably the biggest
01:02:05.349 --> 01:02:08.010
deal they've ever experienced, but give some
01:02:08.010 --> 01:02:10.570
context to that of like, Hey, you know, in the
01:02:10.570 --> 01:02:13.710
grand perspective, you know, kind of give that,
01:02:13.730 --> 01:02:16.500
give that reframe. But I think that's the way,
01:02:16.579 --> 01:02:18.219
like you said, the people that have been through,
01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:21.619
you know, they're empty nesters now. They have
01:02:21.619 --> 01:02:23.840
been through the challenges with their children
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:27.079
and in careers and those kinds of things. And,
01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:30.380
you know, as people age, they have more physical
01:02:30.380 --> 01:02:34.719
issues, whether it's personal or with the people
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:37.480
that they love. And so those challenges build
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:40.260
over time. And if there's someone, like you said,
01:02:40.300 --> 01:02:42.599
who has suffered well, you can actually learn
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:46.429
a lot from someone else. that has gone through
01:02:46.429 --> 01:02:49.949
things before you, right? And so really, that
01:02:49.949 --> 01:02:53.389
requires you to engage that person and to listen
01:02:53.389 --> 01:02:57.590
and to allow them to bless you with their wisdom
01:02:57.590 --> 01:03:00.210
and their experience, because that can be something
01:03:00.210 --> 01:03:02.489
that really helps put certain things in perspective
01:03:02.489 --> 01:03:06.650
for you to allow you to suffer well, right? Yeah.
01:03:06.650 --> 01:03:09.190
So I was at a coffee shop recently and there
01:03:09.190 --> 01:03:11.409
was a conversation with a couple of 20 year old
01:03:11.409 --> 01:03:13.010
guys. They were just off to the side. I didn't
01:03:13.010 --> 01:03:15.070
know them, but somebody from my church came in
01:03:15.070 --> 01:03:16.449
and they saw me at the coffee shop and they said,
01:03:16.510 --> 01:03:18.309
Hey, you know, talk to me about church stuff.
01:03:18.570 --> 01:03:21.210
And then after they left, these two 20 year olds
01:03:21.210 --> 01:03:24.150
just came over and they said, Hey, we are looking
01:03:24.150 --> 01:03:27.210
for somebody that can give us some. mentorship
01:03:27.210 --> 01:03:29.989
some wisdom advice kind of thing so you you're
01:03:29.989 --> 01:03:32.070
older than us and they were talking about spiritual
01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:34.550
things and like what would you give us some advice
01:03:34.550 --> 01:03:37.949
now not not every 20 or you know 22 year old
01:03:37.949 --> 01:03:40.409
is coming up like please sir give us wisdom like
01:03:40.409 --> 01:03:44.030
that doesn't always happen but uh you you need
01:03:44.030 --> 01:03:47.010
to be open to being able to share what you learned
01:03:47.010 --> 01:03:49.809
in your suffering do not waste the wisdom that
01:03:49.809 --> 01:03:53.309
you so fought so hard for don't let that just
01:03:53.309 --> 01:03:56.670
imagine suffering and gaining experience, and
01:03:56.670 --> 01:03:58.989
then just pouring it out on the ground because
01:03:58.989 --> 01:04:01.909
you're doing what? You're protesting that you
01:04:01.909 --> 01:04:04.789
had to go through it. You isolate yourself and
01:04:04.789 --> 01:04:07.469
you keep that. That does not then become an elixir
01:04:07.469 --> 01:04:09.710
for somebody else. It becomes poison for you
01:04:09.710 --> 01:04:11.630
because you're just staying in that same mode.
01:04:11.829 --> 01:04:14.750
So I would say you've got to find opportunities
01:04:14.750 --> 01:04:17.769
to share. You use the word, you know, you're
01:04:17.769 --> 01:04:20.289
not minimizing their situation. Mentoring is
01:04:20.289 --> 01:04:22.980
not minimizing. Right. It's really just saying
01:04:22.980 --> 01:04:25.539
this is exactly what you're going through. I've
01:04:25.539 --> 01:04:28.119
been through something like it, not it exactly,
01:04:28.219 --> 01:04:30.880
because every situation is different, really,
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:33.440
especially trying to mentor teenagers. I mentor
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:37.699
once a month at our high school and every I've
01:04:37.699 --> 01:04:40.639
been doing it for probably 16 years now. And
01:04:40.639 --> 01:04:42.539
every generation of these kids, they were pre
01:04:42.539 --> 01:04:45.199
-COVID mentoring kids. And then there was post
01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:48.280
-COVID mentoring kids. Every. group of high schoolers
01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:50.219
that we've had we see them sophomore year junior
01:04:50.219 --> 01:04:53.159
year and senior year so we're with them for three
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.380
years and then we start over with a fresh group
01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:57.400
they they face a completely different set of
01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:01.380
problems and so if i go in with my experience
01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:05.019
as a child in the pre -internet pre -iphone era
01:05:05.019 --> 01:05:07.880
that's not going to instill trust but if i can
01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:10.559
get down to the core level of You know, it feels
01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:12.579
like you're worried about your future. You're
01:05:12.579 --> 01:05:14.679
feeling a little insecure in who you are right
01:05:14.679 --> 01:05:16.960
now. You're panicked because you're expected
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:18.539
to know what you're going to do for the rest
01:05:18.539 --> 01:05:20.760
of your life for 60 years until you retire and
01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.059
you're 16 years old. But the moment you show
01:05:23.059 --> 01:05:24.820
up again with this piece and say, it's okay for
01:05:24.820 --> 01:05:27.099
you not to know what you want to do right now.
01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:31.119
Because my mentor friend and I, we also did not
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:33.179
know what we were going to be doing. The things
01:05:33.179 --> 01:05:35.360
that we are doing right now were not what we
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:37.420
thought we were going to be doing. When you're
01:05:37.420 --> 01:05:39.199
eight, you want to be a policeman or a firefighter.
01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:40.900
And then it comes to, you know, I want to be
01:05:40.900 --> 01:05:43.039
an influencer. So students are like, that's what
01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:44.639
I want to be. I want to be a YouTuber. And for
01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:48.340
me, I'm like, there was nobody, nobody in high
01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:50.219
school or whenever I was in high school that
01:05:50.219 --> 01:05:51.579
wanted to be a YouTuber. It wasn't even around
01:05:51.579 --> 01:05:54.579
yet. So you can't prepare them for something
01:05:54.579 --> 01:05:57.880
that may not exist yet. Right. But you can prepare
01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.119
them in the things that are true in every generation
01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:05.199
is to know who you are, be self -aware, have
01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:07.780
a great core of people that you can trust. And
01:06:07.780 --> 01:06:10.239
then that is what really helps you get through
01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:12.739
those other things that change with the years,
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:14.739
because there are some things that never change.
01:06:15.500 --> 01:06:18.719
That's so true. It made me think about, you know,
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:22.940
with bullying, you know, back in our day, bullying
01:06:22.940 --> 01:06:26.500
could have been severe. And, but when, but when
01:06:26.500 --> 01:06:29.179
you went home, you left it at the school. Yeah,
01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:32.079
it was located. Yeah, exactly. And now that,
01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:34.079
you know, when you talk to young kids that are
01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:35.760
wrestling through that and experiencing that,
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:37.320
it's a little bit different now with the digital
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:39.199
age, you know, if they have a device in their
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:41.880
hand and that follows them through into the doors
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:44.780
of their home, you know, there's, there can be
01:06:44.780 --> 01:06:47.099
a lot of, a lot of issues that come with that.
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:50.199
And, and it takes someone who hasn't, us like,
01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:52.610
who hasn't experienced that to hear that. And
01:06:52.610 --> 01:06:55.309
it makes me, I'm like, man, wow, that is tough.
01:06:55.489 --> 01:06:59.170
That's another dimension that we didn't have
01:06:59.170 --> 01:07:03.230
the context or framework for. And so I think
01:07:03.230 --> 01:07:05.530
it draws out when you're willing to listen and
01:07:05.530 --> 01:07:07.449
have that patience to someone experiencing something
01:07:07.449 --> 01:07:10.030
similar but different, you know, to have the
01:07:10.030 --> 01:07:12.030
humility to, like you said, like I've been through
01:07:12.030 --> 01:07:14.989
something similar. I don't know how, you know,
01:07:15.030 --> 01:07:16.369
and I have the humility of like, I don't know
01:07:16.369 --> 01:07:18.710
how necessarily helpful this is, but in the dialogue
01:07:18.710 --> 01:07:22.539
you're able to share. and maybe offer additional
01:07:22.539 --> 01:07:26.500
thoughts, dynamics that can reframe things. You
01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:29.260
have to also ask for permission. Just because
01:07:29.260 --> 01:07:31.139
you've been through it and you see the pattern
01:07:31.139 --> 01:07:34.239
doesn't mean that they're ready to listen. It's
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:36.219
like asking somebody who, if they're focused
01:07:36.219 --> 01:07:38.840
on their situation and their chaos and that's
01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:40.960
all they can hear is the voice inside their own
01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:44.159
head, you coming up, you see it in TVs or movies,
01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:45.840
whenever the person that's there to help shows
01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:47.579
up to the person who's shell -shocked, their
01:07:47.579 --> 01:07:51.349
voice is muffled. I'm here to help you. And it's
01:07:51.349 --> 01:07:53.050
like, but they can't hear it. They don't know
01:07:53.050 --> 01:07:54.590
what's going on because they're in shock. So
01:07:54.590 --> 01:07:57.750
you have to sometimes just be a presence that's
01:07:57.750 --> 01:07:59.989
there. That's calming. I can't hear. I'm here.
01:08:00.010 --> 01:08:01.670
You're noticing the patterns and you're looking
01:08:01.670 --> 01:08:04.329
for the right opportunity where they're open.
01:08:04.389 --> 01:08:06.730
They're saying, you know, I don't even know what
01:08:06.730 --> 01:08:10.530
to do. You say, well, okay, I'm here. I'm present.
01:08:10.590 --> 01:08:13.230
And I've been noticing some patterns. If I have
01:08:13.230 --> 01:08:15.179
your permission. I'd like to share something
01:08:15.179 --> 01:08:17.600
that I think would be helpful. And if they go,
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:20.279
yeah, I'm open. If you try to force that, it's
01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:22.600
just not going to work. They will probably do
01:08:22.600 --> 01:08:24.779
something the exact opposite of the advice you
01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:27.300
give because they're just so frustrated with
01:08:27.300 --> 01:08:29.439
the fact that you felt like you could interject
01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:33.640
and make it about you. Their chaos, even if it's
01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:36.340
a chaos that you experienced, their chaos is
01:08:36.340 --> 01:08:40.800
not about you. And so you can tell somebody that
01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:44.279
has not fully gone through and learned the final
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:47.859
sort of chapter of that wisdom of chaos is whenever
01:08:47.859 --> 01:08:50.300
you can sort of turn that page. Because when
01:08:50.300 --> 01:08:51.659
you show up, you're like, I've been through it
01:08:51.659 --> 01:08:53.680
too. And it's like this. And you force yourself.
01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:55.659
You're actually still going through it. And you
01:08:55.659 --> 01:08:57.720
haven't shut that door yet. You haven't fully
01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:59.479
healed from that because you're actually still
01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:02.680
trying to create more chaos with that. But whenever
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:05.949
you can have that patience. to wait for the person
01:09:05.949 --> 01:09:08.869
to be ready for you to give that wisdom and ask
01:09:08.869 --> 01:09:10.750
for permission. And then when they're open, then
01:09:10.750 --> 01:09:13.569
you can say, all right, this has been here for
01:09:13.569 --> 01:09:16.869
a while. It's healed and it's fine now. So when
01:09:16.869 --> 01:09:19.050
I open it, it's not going to spill out everywhere,
01:09:19.310 --> 01:09:21.149
you know, like a can of snakes that just pops
01:09:21.149 --> 01:09:23.689
out. I'm going to open it and you can observe
01:09:23.689 --> 01:09:26.939
it. And I keep it with me, not because it's I
01:09:26.939 --> 01:09:29.800
want to remember or I want to relive all this,
01:09:29.859 --> 01:09:32.020
but because I think it's useful for people and
01:09:32.020 --> 01:09:34.020
it's useful for me at times. And then you close
01:09:34.020 --> 01:09:35.979
it and you set it back down. But if you open
01:09:35.979 --> 01:09:38.340
it and it just erupts everywhere, you're not
01:09:38.340 --> 01:09:41.619
helping them. Yeah, it's shared chaos, right?
01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:44.199
But it's just they've got an erupting volcano
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:46.239
and you opened up your volcano and you just added
01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:48.520
more lava. You didn't do anything to help the
01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:51.300
situation. So true. So true. I have a mentor
01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:55.020
who one of her principles is to never share something
01:09:55.020 --> 01:09:58.560
until you've, this needs to be applied with a
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:00.340
caveat, right? Because then otherwise you'd never
01:10:00.340 --> 01:10:02.439
share anything with anyone. But we're talking
01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:05.439
about the mentor capacity. Yes, exactly. She's
01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:07.220
like, never share something with the mentee.
01:10:07.260 --> 01:10:08.279
I'm talking about what I'm going through with
01:10:08.279 --> 01:10:10.800
my leaders. This is the people that you're trying
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.180
to help. That's right. That's right. She's like,
01:10:13.180 --> 01:10:16.279
never share something with those people that
01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:20.300
you haven't fully. fully handled because like
01:10:20.300 --> 01:10:22.699
you said, it's, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna,
01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:27.000
it's not going to have the ability to support
01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:30.819
and heal that person because there's still potential
01:10:30.819 --> 01:10:34.699
for damage. Yep. Because that'll come from you
01:10:34.699 --> 01:10:37.880
and then spread to them. So yeah, that's, that's,
01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:41.380
you've given them half a roadmap. And but what
01:10:41.380 --> 01:10:43.060
they don't see is that on the other half of the
01:10:43.060 --> 01:10:45.159
bridge is out and you just told them how to get
01:10:45.159 --> 01:10:47.039
on the highway that will take them over a cliff
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:48.760
because you haven't given them the full route.
01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:53.220
So but like I said, you can even say that it
01:10:53.220 --> 01:10:57.420
does. It does a great hedging of that. If you
01:10:57.420 --> 01:10:59.359
say just so you know, I'm kind of going through
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:01.000
something similar, but I'm at this stage right
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:04.060
now. I'm not telling you how to get to the. completed
01:11:04.060 --> 01:11:06.520
chapter because i'm not there myself if you have
01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:08.500
enough self -awareness to say hey i'm in it with
01:11:08.500 --> 01:11:10.460
you right now uh you're a little bit behind me
01:11:10.460 --> 01:11:13.760
uh but this is how i got to where i am and it's
01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:16.500
up to you to decide if where i am is where you
01:11:16.500 --> 01:11:19.319
want to be and and if they go i don't want to
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:20.859
be where you are then you have to go maybe i'm
01:11:20.859 --> 01:11:23.449
not where i should be right now But if you're
01:11:23.449 --> 01:11:26.670
like, yeah, our situation isn't over, you know,
01:11:26.689 --> 01:11:28.409
we're still going through this storm, but this
01:11:28.409 --> 01:11:30.229
is how we at least got to the eye of the hurricane
01:11:30.229 --> 01:11:32.430
and then have them go, okay, well, I'm going
01:11:32.430 --> 01:11:33.949
to get at least to that eye of the hurricane.
01:11:34.130 --> 01:11:37.810
And then we can then go to the next step together.
01:11:37.850 --> 01:11:39.949
You're always going to be just acknowledging
01:11:39.949 --> 01:11:43.649
I'm not through it, but I'm further can help
01:11:43.649 --> 01:11:45.949
that person take what you're saying with that
01:11:45.949 --> 01:11:48.050
understanding instead of like, you've got the
01:11:48.050 --> 01:11:51.189
whole thing figured out. Oh, no, I don't. But
01:11:51.189 --> 01:11:52.930
this is you're going through something that I
01:11:52.930 --> 01:11:54.949
did figure out and I can help you with at least
01:11:54.949 --> 01:11:56.949
that part. And you just give them that little
01:11:56.949 --> 01:12:00.689
bit. Yeah. Yeah. And going through that, I mean,
01:12:00.710 --> 01:12:03.710
we've talked about you've touched on it multiple
01:12:03.710 --> 01:12:08.489
times in our conversation. I want to ask, is
01:12:08.489 --> 01:12:11.369
there anything with a different illustration?
01:12:11.529 --> 01:12:14.770
So, you know, the illustration of the cup being
01:12:14.770 --> 01:12:18.409
full or empty and then the phrase of you, you
01:12:18.409 --> 01:12:22.470
can't fill from an empty cup. Right. And so is
01:12:22.470 --> 01:12:24.529
there anything additional that you want to say
01:12:24.529 --> 01:12:30.210
about how you replenish when you have to fill,
01:12:30.310 --> 01:12:32.869
you can't fill from an empty cup? Any additional
01:12:32.869 --> 01:12:34.989
thoughts that you haven't already touched on
01:12:34.989 --> 01:12:38.590
that will help in that scenario? Yeah. What I
01:12:38.590 --> 01:12:40.810
believe is deeply rooted in Scripture and what
01:12:40.810 --> 01:12:43.630
Jesus says, that the spring of life will well
01:12:43.630 --> 01:12:46.960
up from within the person. I think that is important
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:48.899
to that there. I believe that there is a source
01:12:48.899 --> 01:12:52.020
that you have to go to like a deep well and it
01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:55.020
never, ever, ever runs dry, which means you will
01:12:55.020 --> 01:12:57.819
never, ever go thirsty. The problem is, is whenever
01:12:57.819 --> 01:13:00.300
we're searching somebody else's cup, right? I'm
01:13:00.300 --> 01:13:03.500
at 50%. This person's at 90%. So I want them
01:13:03.500 --> 01:13:06.579
to go down to 80 so I can get to 60. You are
01:13:06.579 --> 01:13:10.060
still. thirsty and you just made them a little
01:13:10.060 --> 01:13:12.840
more thirstier, right? So I would say the source
01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:17.020
matters. It has to be a source that goes so deep
01:13:17.020 --> 01:13:18.899
that it will never run out. Because if you're
01:13:18.899 --> 01:13:20.819
draining from other people, right? If you're
01:13:20.819 --> 01:13:22.680
pulling from their cups while you still have
01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:24.739
a hole in yours, right? You need to sort of assess
01:13:24.739 --> 01:13:26.739
them like, what's going on? What do I need to
01:13:26.739 --> 01:13:28.819
fix? I keep losing water. Then I say that that
01:13:28.819 --> 01:13:31.600
cup needs to be sort of structurally repaired.
01:13:32.060 --> 01:13:34.300
as best as you can. But then you make sure you're
01:13:34.300 --> 01:13:36.779
pulling from a source that is not going to then
01:13:36.779 --> 01:13:38.300
drain somebody else. Because there'll be well
01:13:38.300 --> 01:13:40.500
-intentioned people who say, my cup's full, let
01:13:40.500 --> 01:13:43.500
me pour into you. And they may inadvertently
01:13:43.500 --> 01:13:47.060
take from their margin to give to you. But if
01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:48.760
they're not connected to a source that fills
01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:51.100
them. So I would just say, consider your source.
01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:53.140
And I believe spiritually, there's a source that
01:13:53.140 --> 01:13:57.170
is perpetual. It begs you to come and fill up
01:13:57.170 --> 01:13:59.250
there. And I think the reason why so many cups
01:13:59.250 --> 01:14:03.729
are at 50 instead of 100 or 90 is because we're
01:14:03.729 --> 01:14:07.890
just all trying to share the same source and
01:14:07.890 --> 01:14:11.289
not actually. We're just like, I've got some.
01:14:11.369 --> 01:14:12.869
I'll give it to you. But it better come back
01:14:12.869 --> 01:14:15.229
around to me in at least three years. We're all
01:14:15.229 --> 01:14:18.329
just pouring the same amount of water into other
01:14:18.329 --> 01:14:21.890
people's cups instead of going and letting everybody's
01:14:21.890 --> 01:14:25.189
cups fill up from an eternal source. Yeah. I
01:14:25.189 --> 01:14:28.550
mean, that's the scarcity mindset versus the
01:14:28.550 --> 01:14:31.550
abundance, right? There is enough to go around
01:14:31.550 --> 01:14:35.630
if your source is the right source. And I think
01:14:35.630 --> 01:14:38.050
what we're settling for is I trust my team around
01:14:38.050 --> 01:14:41.289
me and they'll give me what they have and we'll
01:14:41.289 --> 01:14:44.670
share what little we all have. But if you don't
01:14:44.670 --> 01:14:46.729
have a team that you can trust, defensiveness
01:14:46.729 --> 01:14:50.550
comes into play. So as long as you trust everybody
01:14:50.550 --> 01:14:53.319
to share what little we have. It'll be fine.
01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:54.840
It'll be on my plate for a little bit. And then
01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:57.220
I'll give it up when the time is right. But if
01:14:57.220 --> 01:14:59.960
you don't have a team that is really cohesive
01:14:59.960 --> 01:15:02.100
and trusting, then they're just going to hold
01:15:02.100 --> 01:15:03.539
on to it. Like, no, I don't care about your chaos
01:15:03.539 --> 01:15:05.479
anymore. I just don't want to go back to where
01:15:05.479 --> 01:15:07.039
I was. So I'm going to hold on to this. In fact,
01:15:07.060 --> 01:15:08.439
I'm going to take it and I'm going to go. And
01:15:08.439 --> 01:15:11.000
then suddenly you've lost pieces from the tape
01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:13.359
that everybody was getting from instead of so.
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.399
So, yeah, you can trust the people around you
01:15:16.399 --> 01:15:18.720
and share. But it's even better whenever you're
01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:21.100
added to from another source and there's plenty
01:15:21.100 --> 01:15:24.420
to go around. Very solid. Any final thoughts
01:15:24.420 --> 01:15:28.760
that you have about optimizing when things aren't
01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:31.699
optimal? Yeah, I would say keep an eye for the
01:15:31.699 --> 01:15:34.180
people that are dependent upon you. You know,
01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:36.640
whether it's your dependence, like in a tax sense
01:15:36.640 --> 01:15:39.220
from your household, or if it's dependence people
01:15:39.220 --> 01:15:42.100
that they depend upon your leadership in the
01:15:42.100 --> 01:15:45.420
workforce, or even in spiritual leadership, don't
01:15:45.420 --> 01:15:48.300
get so focused on your chaos that you forget
01:15:48.300 --> 01:15:51.979
to fight for the people. that are dependent upon
01:15:51.979 --> 01:15:54.399
you. It's amazing how you can find that whenever
01:15:54.399 --> 01:15:58.579
you... to help these others with situations that
01:15:58.579 --> 01:16:00.300
they're going through, that that actually helps
01:16:00.300 --> 01:16:04.119
you in your situation as well. You know, helping
01:16:04.119 --> 01:16:07.239
your kids with their situation. You know, I didn't
01:16:07.239 --> 01:16:10.500
make the play or I didn't do what I needed to
01:16:10.500 --> 01:16:13.119
do. I've got the situation. And you step in as
01:16:13.119 --> 01:16:15.840
that person that's a helpful presence, a peaceful,
01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:18.140
helpful presence, and you resolve that. It's
01:16:18.140 --> 01:16:21.380
amazing how you take that, oh, I helped my employee
01:16:21.380 --> 01:16:26.180
with their situation. I helped. That quiets some
01:16:26.180 --> 01:16:29.699
of your chaos because you stepped in and did
01:16:29.699 --> 01:16:31.800
something. And what you really, really, when
01:16:31.800 --> 01:16:34.039
it feels like your boat is just swamped, when
01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:36.979
you start to focus on other people as you can
01:16:36.979 --> 01:16:40.199
and help them, it's amazing how you realize,
01:16:40.359 --> 01:16:43.890
you know, I think they got through that. through
01:16:43.890 --> 01:16:46.270
this too. So just make sure that the people that
01:16:46.270 --> 01:16:48.229
are dependent upon you, that you're looking out
01:16:48.229 --> 01:16:50.710
for them and you're their champion instead of
01:16:50.710 --> 01:16:53.470
the person that is just sort of draining power
01:16:53.470 --> 01:16:57.510
from everybody. That makes me think of, you know,
01:16:57.529 --> 01:17:00.949
the last step of the 10 steps for, you know,
01:17:00.949 --> 01:17:03.630
like AA or things like that is that you're required
01:17:03.630 --> 01:17:06.250
to help somebody else. You know, when I talk
01:17:06.250 --> 01:17:08.310
to college kids, I work with college kids every
01:17:08.310 --> 01:17:11.750
semester and that are dealing with tough things.
01:17:11.850 --> 01:17:14.989
They always feel they always feel this assumption
01:17:14.989 --> 01:17:19.689
that to, I have to have, I have to have these
01:17:19.689 --> 01:17:23.149
areas in check and I have to be, I don't want
01:17:23.149 --> 01:17:26.489
to say perfect, but like they have to like with
01:17:26.489 --> 01:17:29.489
the AA example, like I can't be an alcoholic
01:17:29.489 --> 01:17:32.119
anymore before I try to help somebody else. And
01:17:32.119 --> 01:17:36.260
part of healing is actually being able to take
01:17:36.260 --> 01:17:38.680
the focus from yourself. Like you said, there's
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:41.739
a type of healing that can take place when you're
01:17:41.739 --> 01:17:44.140
not internally fixated. When you start focusing
01:17:44.140 --> 01:17:46.460
on other people and how to help them, it takes
01:17:46.460 --> 01:17:50.439
another layer of knowledge in order to teach
01:17:50.439 --> 01:17:53.560
someone else and to help someone else. And so
01:17:53.560 --> 01:17:56.479
it's actually a type of, it deepens that healing
01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:58.720
and that experience and that knowledge to be
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.979
able to focus on helping others. I like to say
01:18:01.979 --> 01:18:04.500
that whenever you're trying to give of yourself
01:18:04.500 --> 01:18:06.279
to help people, whatever it is, whether it's
01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:09.520
monetary or time, emotional support, strength,
01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.020
I say you cannot give what you do not have. But
01:18:13.020 --> 01:18:17.420
what you can have is an inability to give. So
01:18:17.420 --> 01:18:20.100
you have to give something. It doesn't have to
01:18:20.100 --> 01:18:23.800
be everything, right? You don't have it. Don't
01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:27.270
give it. But you cannot be somebody. that cannot
01:18:27.270 --> 01:18:30.029
give or else you are, you, you're not actually
01:18:30.029 --> 01:18:32.189
looking for solutions. You're, you're not looking
01:18:32.189 --> 01:18:34.710
to survive the chaos. You're actually enjoying
01:18:34.710 --> 01:18:37.029
it. Right. And so when you're enjoying the chaos,
01:18:37.130 --> 01:18:39.390
you just kind of keep the, just keep the fires
01:18:39.390 --> 01:18:41.250
burning. So you can continue to play the victim.
01:18:41.670 --> 01:18:43.649
And that's, that's not helpful for the people
01:18:43.649 --> 01:18:45.930
that are bleeding resources to try to help you,
01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:48.090
but you're, you're just never going to get there.
01:18:48.590 --> 01:18:51.029
That's very solid, man. This has been a, this
01:18:51.029 --> 01:18:53.409
has been a great discussion. Yeah. It's actually
01:18:53.409 --> 01:18:55.270
been helpful for me. It's been helpful for me
01:18:55.270 --> 01:18:57.439
and my. As I'm talking about that, helping other
01:18:57.439 --> 01:19:00.680
people in their chaos, I'm like, that's me. Hopefully
01:19:00.680 --> 01:19:03.600
this is helpful because I've enjoyed this time.
01:19:03.659 --> 01:19:05.140
Thank you so much for asking me to be a part
01:19:05.140 --> 01:19:07.920
of it. Absolutely. All right, folks. Well, thanks
01:19:07.920 --> 01:19:10.180
for listening to the Optimizing Beyond podcast.
01:19:10.399 --> 01:19:12.880
Remember, growth happens when you take action.
01:19:13.020 --> 01:19:15.460
So subscribe, share this with a friend, and most
01:19:15.460 --> 01:19:18.060
importantly, put what you learned into practice.
01:19:18.260 --> 01:19:20.979
And until next time, remember, keep moving forward
01:19:20.979 --> 01:19:23.939
because daily anything changes everything.