2. CNN's Kerry Flynn

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Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Inspire your audience and grow your company on Pinterest with a free business account. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. It's time to Geek Out.
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[upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to Geek Out with Matt Navarra, sponsored by Pinterest. I'm Matt Navarra. And I'm Martin SFP Bryant. Now, what's the future of social media?
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That's a pretty broad question, but it's one we'll attempt to answer in this week's episode. Yes, episode two. I think it's fair to say that last week's show was pretty well received, which is really amazing.
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We were a bit nervous, but that's all gone well for us. Uh, so thanks for all of the feedback, folks.
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It's been amazing what people have been saying, and, uh, we're really looking forward to, uh, bringing you some other amazing special guests and some interesting topics of discussion. Yeah, exactly.
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I suppose good feedback means we have to keep doing it. [laughs] We do, and, uh, hopefully we'll get to do a, a second season if it, if it keeps on going as well as it is.
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So, uh, we'll, uh, keep you informed of, of progress on that front as well. So if you wanna get in touch with us on Twitter, use the hashtag #geekoutquestions, and you can find me there on Twitter as @mattnavarra.
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And I'm martinsfp on Twitter. So Matt, what have you been up to this week? Oh, another busy week of complete nerdy, geeky social media stuff. Nothing, uh, changes in my life.
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But, uh, I've been playing with a couple of new apps this week. Um, there was one on Product Hunt called Quoted Replies.
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Uh, I think it's quite, a small, uh, independent developer created where it allows you to kind of take the URL when you're on your, um, iPhone or Android and then paste it into the, the app, and it will, will download the, the media, the video to your device, which is a lot easier than many other sort of apps that do the same thing.
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So that was quite useful. Quoted Replies. So yeah, my week has m- largely been, uh, pretty much heads down on work.
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But, uh, the most probably exciting thing was, uh, doing a bit of TV and radio punditry around, uh, the iPhone 11 launch.
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Uh, it was all fun and good and all great until this morning I was talking to a radio station about the iPhone and about Chinese import phones and all this kind of thing.
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Suddenly they had to cut me off because my phone connection was really, really bad. So you can have...
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Yeah, I've got last year's, uh, top iPhone, and, uh, it could be the best iPhone in the world, but if your phone signal's terrible, you still get chucked off on the radio.
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So, uh, there's still, there's still room for improvement i- in the f- in the smartphone space, even if, uh, the smartphones themselves are only getting, uh, slightly better cameras and things.
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But anyway, Matt, who's our guest today?
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Well, I am really excited about our guest today because this is somebody that I've known for a number of years, and I've had the, the pleasure of her company on, on trips to, to the US when I've been to South By, and we've conversed on Twitter endlessly about geeky, nerdy stuff to do with social media.
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So it's a great pleasure to have Kerri Flynn, CNN's new top media reporter. New job. Kerri, welcome. Hey, guys. Thanks for having me, and such a lovely intro, Matt.
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[laughs] Well, I gotta co- butter you, butter you up 'cause I want you to share this everywhere, so that's, that's what I'm trying here, if I'm really honest. But no, seriously- [laughs]...
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it's, it's great to have you on. And, uh, could you just tell, tell us a little bit about you and your background? 'Cause obviously we're friends.
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We know, known each other for quite some time, but there's probably a lot of other people maybe, I c- I'm sure there's not that many, that don't know who you are.
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So tell them a bit about what you've been up to and what you've done in the past. Yeah. Well, like you said, I have a new job, which is exciting.
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Uh, I recently joined CNN, uh, as a media reporter here, and I've worked at a handful of media companies in the last five years living in New York, five years since I graduated college.
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Um, [laughs] and it's kinda maybe a reason why I cover media now because I've worked at enough companies.
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My job before this was at a company called Digiday, which is a publication that covers media, marketing, and retail.
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Before that I was at Mashable, which, uh, hopefully you guys still remember, is an awesome site that covers kinda tech- Mm-hmm... and culture. Uh, before that I was at a company called IBT. Before that I was at HuffPost.
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Before that I was at Forbes. Uh, and then I was in college. Uh, so yeah, I've worked at many a media company and had some incredible experiences.
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There's a reason I'm still in this world and now covering the media as an industry. Uh, so I think it's fair to say that you are a qualified geek in the best possible sense. [laughs] For sure. Uh, definitely.
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I think when I joined this company, one of my colleagues was like, "Oh, I'm so excited to work with you 'cause you're, like, kinda weird." I was like, "Wow," like, "th- thank you."
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Like, you know, you know, don't take it the wrong way, but, like, you like to geek out on things, you know, which is something I think some colleagues are like, "Oh, that's awesome."
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Like, you won't be, like, awkward and silent. You will literally talk to me about anything. Well, I...
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Well, before we head in, into the rest of the show, one thing I, I, I just remembered, I was in South By with Kerri, um, a few years back now this was, and I, I discovered she has a, an incredible talent, which I still to this day don't know how she does, and I wish I could do it, um, where she will be talking to me or whoever she's with and doing about three or four other things whilst holding her iPhone in her right hand down almost by her knees and typing full length essay messages in text messages or Messenger messages without even looking at the screen once with almost a 0% error rate.
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I don't know how you can do that- [laughs]... but it's a skill you've got, and it's a skill I wish I had. That is something other people have picked up on.
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I remember my uncle was the first one who, like, really called it out to me, and it's something I also do with, like, laptops.
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Like, I have that weird skill of, like, you know, us having a conversation right now and I can, like, kinda type in real time, um, which is extremely useful when being a reporter, right?
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Um, though at the same time, it's nice to just concentrate on one thing at one time at times. [laughs] She's clearly got a dual-core brain. It's s- it's, it's more than dual-core.
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There's probably a quad-core or something, but it's amazing.
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[laughs] But we're gonna discover a bit more about, uh, Kerry's weird and wonderful talents, but also some interesting stuff to do with social media a little bit later in the show.
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But, uh, let's go into a bit of the news from this week in the world of social. Martin, what the hell has been going on?
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So, uh, some big news from Facebook this week was they, uh, finally launched their dating, uh, service in the States.
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They have launched it in a number of other countries around the world, but, uh, the US is definitely their highest profile market, uh, to launch, uh, dating in so far.
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It, uh, comes with some new features, like being able to share, uh, Instagram posts in your dating profile. That's something that, uh, other apps, uh, I'm told, I'm not any...
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on any of these, but, uh, I'm told things like Tinder allow you to do that already. Uh, but, uh, yeah. Um, uh, so Facebook Dating is, uh...
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I, I think it's a brave thing to launch in the face of, uh, everything they're, they're facing at the moment. Now, Facebook is saying, "Oh, well, your profile's completely separate", but, uh, I don't know.
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I can understand why some people might be a little wary of this. Matt, what are your thoughts? Yeah, it just feels like a big data car crash waiting to happen for data privacy to me.
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It's almost like i- it's not a case of if it goes wrong, it's when it's gonna happen and how much of a, kind of a, a splashback they're gonna get from, from the media for, for that error.
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Um, so I just wait for that to happen. But I think it'll be fairly popular fro- from a novelty point of view with those are, are, are moderate to heavy users of Facebook already.
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Uh, I'm not sure if that is the younger demographic that maybe they would like to see or maybe we'd expect to see using it more.
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Um, and like you say, it's got the Instagram integration, which is really smart, I think, in terms of just features and functions. It's, it adds additional concerns about data privacy and things could go wrong.
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Um, but they say it's arou- um, it's available in 20 countries now, including the US, and then Europe is coming shortly, I think ne- maybe next year, I think I read. Uh, it's free. It's, uh, ad-free as well.
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Uh, and you've got this feature called Secret Crushes, which allows you to, uh, uh, sort of say who you kind of like, who's, um, a crush of yours who is one of your friends, and that's the bit where you could interact and engage with the dating side of it with people that you're already friends with.
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Um, I'm just waiting for that also to, to go badly wrong. But- [laughs]... but it's got some great safety features.
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It's got Messenger integration, so you can send a date your live location, and it's got, uh, other features that you can, um, tell people you're going on a date to let them know you've arrived safely and all that kind of stuff.
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But, uh, yeah, I, I'm not sure. Um, Kerry, I'm, I know you're gonna have thoughts on this. What, what do you think? I just think that can Facebook just, like, not do everything? Like, I think- [laughs]...
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as someone who I, I've never really used dating apps, but a lot of my friends do, and I used to cover them a lot, and I think there's just something to be said of, like, a dating app, like, just being a dating app, right?
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Like, as in, like, I don't wanna go to Facebook and then get messages pushing me, being like, "Hey, don't forget to check on your crushes." It's like, no, like, I wanna go somewhere else for that.
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That's what Tinder is for. That's what Hinge is for. That's what Bumble is for.
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Like, it's like there are great other apps, like, and, and maybe this gets into the c- the conversation we'll talk later of just, like, regulation and, and monopolies and this idea that, like, really is it necessary?
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At the same time, I give credit to the fact, like Mark Zuckerberg said in his post, people have been using Facebook for dating for a while now. So at the same time, it's, it's serving your audience for that need.
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I just hope it doesn't start, like, pushing me to join. Hopefully, I guess I have myself listed as re- like, not single, so therefore maybe it won't.
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But I'll be curious to see kind of how much it gets integrated into the app.
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And I also noticed that they, they have introduced some features into it that, uh, stop the, the dreaded, can I say it, dick pic scenario- [laughs]... that we, we hear so much about with these apps.
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They, they've got no ability or they're not gonna let you send a lot of different media types through messages.
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So if, uh, if you're on any of these apps already and, and that's a big concern for you, Facebook is, is locked that down. Uh, and I'm not surprised. Facebook's not a fan of any of those kind of, uh, things.
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So yes, that's, uh, an added bonus for those that care about it. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, if they do want younger people on Facebook Dating, surely they should brand it Instagram Dating. Well, Kerry, what do you think?
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I, uh, no, I think that it's, like you were saying earlier, I think it's gonna be more popular with an older audience, and, and the older audience is used to Facebook.
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Um, and I just think Facebook is trying to brand the, the blue app as friends and family and kind of th- those more connections, while Instagram is seemingly becoming more, like, brands and influencers and passions.
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So I think with those, like, diverse narratives, it, it makes sense to put dating into the Facebook side of the equation. Yeah, well, I, I'm, I'm intrigued to play with it.
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I'm gonna try and pester some people at Facebook to see if they can let me, um, have a look. But of course- [laughs]...
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it's not gonna be much use because unless, uh, there's other people in my country that are on it, it's not gonna show me much about how it works anyway. But we'll, uh... I might just have to wait and be patient.
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But, uh, what else has been going on, Martin? So, uh, obviously, uh, Apple announced the, uh, iPhone 11 and various other things yesterday as we record this.
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Um, um, uh, from a social media point of view, the interesting thing was that this was the first time that the event was streamed on YouTube.
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And, uh, so Apple has traditionally, uh, been quite, uh, restrictive in how you could watch a live stream. For many years, they didn't have a live stream at all.
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You had to rely on live blogs from, from, uh, tech blogs to see what was going on.
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And there was something quite fun about that [laughs] having five different live blogs open from Engadget and The Verge and whoever else and, and reading them all and switch, switching between them to see who was, uh, who had the latest information.
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But then they realized, well, no, we do really need, uh, live video. And, uh, they... Uh, th- for a long time it was, it was really locked down to Apple devices.
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Um, I think probably so they could control the quality, but, uh, at the same time, it kind of felt a bit kind of exclusive, like, "Oh, we don't want new customers to see this.
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You have to be an existing customer to see it," which seemed a bit strange. Uh, so this time they, they really opened it up, and it was, it was live on YouTube.
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Um, uh, Matt, have you any idea how many people watched it and whether it was a success? Yeah. I, I think I saw a figure in, in the kind of one to two million, I think near the two million mark when I looked yesterday.
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Someone mentioned in, in an article I was reading. So that seems about what I would expect, you know. Uh, it would be a bit finger in the air of a guess, but that seems like the right sort of number.
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Uh, I noticed obviously that the, the comments feature within the YouTube live stream was, was off. Um, so, uh, I guess that's Apple's typical way of, uh, handling, uh, people trolling them, I guess.
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Um, but I guess the bigger question for outside of social media is, is, is anyone, any of us gonna go and buy it? Kerry, are you gonna buy a new iPhone? I don't think so.
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My iPhone 10 has been holding up pretty well, knock on wood. I'm gonna, like, get off this podcast and drop it. But, uh [laughs], no. I, I don't know. I, I've looked...
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I didn't watch all of the live stream, but you know, I read, I read the great coverage afterwards, and it... There's just not enough for me there. You know?
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Like, I don't think I take as great enough photos that I need such a quality camera. My camera's fine right now.
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I was just looking at old photos the other day, like, you know, from five years ago, and I'm like, "Wow, the camera has gotten so much better. It's great."
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So until my 10 is completely q- horrible when it comes to battery quality, I don't think I'm getting the X phone. What, what did you make of all of the other things that they launched yesterday?
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So obviously there were some updates to the Watch, which is, you know, what we would expect in some of these, um, sessions with them about new products.
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And, and there was a couple other things that were extensions and, and improvements and enhancements of e- of existing product lines.
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But they also announced, um, the, uh, Apple Arcade, um, the subscription gaming service, and, uh, and some pricing details about Apple TV. I'm sure there were some other things.
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Was there anything that stood out for you that was particularly noteworthy or good or bad or, or anything else? I find it really fascinating, and I think Bloomberg wrote this, just kind of their pricing strategy.
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When it comes to, like, Apple Arcade, I'm not super into mobile games. At the same time, I love the fact that it's, I believe, $5 a month, and you can share it with your whole family. It's kind of one of those ideas...
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That- that's pretty cheap.
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Like, if I had kids or I guess if I wanted to, like, share with my sisters or, like, family, like, $5 a month is awesome for I guess the amount of content you're getting, and I think same could be said for Apple TV+.
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Like, there's good enough quality content for such a low price and being able to share, you know, legally share passwords [laughs] and easily.
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Like, I think that's, um, that's a smart strategy for them, and I, I, and I think it's gonna make more people like me, uh, wanna be a part of those programs.
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Also, with Apple TV+, getting a free year if you buy a new device is pretty smart. Yeah, I was just about to say that exactly, that the, the whole giving it away.
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So I think for the Arcade and for the Apple pl- um, TV stuff, um, a lot of it seems like loss leader strategy.
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They're kind of, you know, getting you on- onboarded and signed up and locked in, uh, and then maybe hike the prices later, 'cause, uh, it seems pretty low. But Martin, what, what do you think? Yeah.
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Well, they need to, don't they? Because people are, are buying fewer iPhones. But I think that's a sign that the, uh, the iPhone or the smartphone market in general is, is, is pretty much baked now.
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It's pretty, uh, pretty much done. A, a smartphone is a smartphone. It's a, it's a slab of glass that connects to the internet. You know, you've got your foldable phones and things, but, um, we'll see how they go.
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They're completely unproven in the market. It'll take a few years to mature. But, uh, a smartphone is just...
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It, it, it is what it is, and, um, I think it's better now to, uh, not ask, "Oh, will I upgrade from last year's model to this year's model?"
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Because you wouldn't do that with a car, and, um, y- you'd buy a, a new car maybe every four, five years, whatever, and, uh, then that's a massive leap.
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If you bought the s- the next model of the same car every year, you'd see such tiny increases that it wouldn't be worth it.
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So I think we need to shake off the idea that every year smartphones will be massively better, uh, and, and just learn to cherish our existing devices a bit more and take advantage of the new services and the, the new operating system upgrades and things that come along the way if we're, if we're, if we, if we need something new.
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Well, I, I've, I'm on the upgrade scheme for iPhone, so I'm a complete sucker for these sorts- [laughs]... of things. So I, I'll be getting it, I'm sure. Um, and I'm also...
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I would love for Apple to actually do a sub- um, a, an upgrade scheme for the, the Apple Watch, because, um, it's a lower price point, so it feels like it would be more of an affordable upgrade scheme.
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They do as many updates nearly as they do with the iPhone. Um, so, uh, that would be interesting to me, but, um, who knows? Maybe that's their next thing that they'll do.
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Um, i- in more serious news, Facebook, Google, and pretty much everyone in Silicon Valley is, um, in trouble again, um, this time with the State Attorney General office.
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Um, I think the words that sort of describe the situation is shit just got real for Facebook. [laughs] Um, basically.
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This is one of many of the legal battles that Facebook and, and some of the other tech giants, um, are facing at the moment.
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Uh, but this one feels, to me at least, like it could have a far greater chance of sticking and having, uh, wider implications for the industry and for, for the companies that are implicated in it.
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Um, so it'll be interesting to see how far it goes.
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I'm, I'm glad that we've got, uh, uh, uh, Kerri on the show from the US who has been far more up to speed with how these kind of things work, um, I'm hoping anyway, and maybe, um, she can tell us in a moment a bit about how, how it might go out and how it might play out.
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Um, but Martin, what, what do you think about all of these things that are coming about? I'm, I, I'm happy to defer to, to Kerri on this one.
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Um, all I will say is that, um, I really love the plural attorneys general, which is how Americans, um... Like, i- in the UK, we'd probably say attorney generals.
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Um, but in America it's like, no, they're attorneys who are general. They're not generals who are attorneys. So it's attorneys general. And, uh, so you get people who are very, very- [laughs]...
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pernickety about grammar in the States who will say iPads pro. Not iPad Pros- [laughs]... iPads pro. Um, uh, and, uh, so I just love all that stuff. But, uh, but yeah. So I prefer grammar to social media regulation.
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But, uh, but yeah, uh, Kerri, uh, maybe you've got a, a bit of a, a primer on what's happening here? Well, I did not realize that it's at- attorneys general. Like, today I learned.
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[laughs] Because I [laughs], I didn't write about this news. But I've been following this news and, and I think I, I read, uh, Casey Newton of The Verge.
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Uh, kinda his headline, uh, the, the way they put it was, "Google and Facebook's antitrust problem is getting much more serious," and I think that's the right framing.
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The New York Times also did this, a story recently this week, uh, that was aggregating essentially all the, um, kind of, [laughs] regulation crises happening right now at Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon.
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They're just really adding up. Eight federal inquiries, six state and local, two at Congress at the level. It's just like no longer are we just having, you know, one little slap on the wrist like we've seen in the past.
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You know, the last time that Facebook got fined, it was, what was it, like, $5 billion, which is a lot of money, but when you compare it to Facebook, it's nothing, right? Like, it's...
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So you- people see it as a slap on the wrist. Now we have yet another suit with 50 attorneys general [laughs]... you know, wanting, wanting to really escalate the fight.
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And, and therefore, that kind of leads me to believe that this is getting more serious, and perhaps we'll see more than just a fine, but actually improved regulations.
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With the privacy fine too, there were some, like, oversight rules where they, Facebook just needs to be a lot better at communication, but it still- It, the, what came out is not affecting their strategy. You know?
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Like, their advertising business is pretty much still consistent except for when it came to housing discrimination.
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Like, I feel like that's one of the only things they've, they've really had to change because that literally violated US law to o- target housing ads to particular classes of people.
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I'd, I'd be excited and curious to see more when it comes to antitrust, breaking up companies, and also when it comes to advertising regulation and, and data privacy.
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I think the companies themselves, I was checking news from Da Mexico, the conference this morning, where Google is talking more about less personalized targeted ads.
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Instead of targeting individual, you're targeting buckets of people. So I'm like, ooh, that's interesting, right?
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They're, like, starting to get ahead of the game, worried that it's only gonna get, um, more difficult for them. Is this...
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Just to, for our audience that maybe isn't as, um, is up to speed with what all of these different hearings and, uh, and court cases mean, th- the ones that we're hearing about at the moment, which are the, um, antitrust ones and then this one that we- the attorneys general one, um- [laughs]...
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can we, can you give us any sense of how much more serious or, or added heat this is compared to things we've seen in the past? Is this a, a significant development, do you think?
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Yeah, I think the, the idea that it's an investigation from 50 attorneys generals, like, we've had this in the past.
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It, it, it kind of [laughs] reminds me, I know, like, totally different investigations, but things started to get serious with Uber when it wasn't just, like, one state saying something, but it was, like, a lot of states taking action and starting to realize that the company at a whole is that problem.
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Um, and I think that's, again, different types of investigations, but it just, again, brings serious to the issue by bringing it to a different level, um, and hopefully opening up to the federal court's eyes that like, "Hey, we need to do something more here."
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Because it's interesting, right? Like, we're in the US. Uh, I'm sure you guys have hopefully heard about, uh, where California's starting to, uh, you know, get together a- their own quote unquote, like, GDPR version.
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So if California ro- rolls out these regulations, it's gonna be interesting where Google and Facebook will have to comply.
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Perhaps they'll actually comply throughout all of the US just because it's easier for them to operate that way.
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But it'll be interesting to see, okay, like, will the federal government actually take the same level of, um, scrutiny as that California regulation? Hm.
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Certainly seems like it's turned up a notch to me, so it's gonna be an interesting, uh, couple of months, or a lot longer than a couple of months. These things don't ever happen quickly, do they?
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We're gonna speak in more depth with Carrie shortly, but first, Geek Out! with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Creators help make Pinterest the best place for people to discover and do what they love.
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for the latest Pinterest product updates, content tips, trends, and more. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. So Carrie, what do you think is the most important story in social media right now?
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What is everyone talking about? What is, for you, exciting and interesting or concerning? Well, unfortunately, I think we already just talked [laughs] about it- [laughs]...
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is that regulation, I, I would argue, is the most important story in social media, just because it'll... Perhaps, it already is, like, changing the behavior of companies.
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Like Facebook, there's no lie that Facebook is the biggest holder of social media company.
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That Facebook is the biggest social media company and owns the most number of platforms that we use and categorize as social media.
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So if the US government here is gonna make them change the way they behave, that is [laughs] the most important story.
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Um, but I, I would say, again, to kind of hold on Facebook, the, the shift we've had on, on just kind of realization of what these apps are and, and kind of how they use our data and behavior shifts there is interesting.
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I would say this is just slow-going, but the, Facebook's, you know, considering the removing of likes, or at least removing of the public, um, viewing of likes.
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I think it's also interesting 'cause it fits into that narrative of people starting to wake up and realize how they use their apps.
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And, and whether they're deleting them themselves or, or f- the companies themselves are trying to make them healthier to use, I think that's another big story.
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Well, we, we've got a question that we were gonna ask you, um, later on in the interview actually about, uh, regulation, so it might be good to just have a little bit of a discussion about that now.
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Um, could you just tell us what y- your thoughts are on regulation of social media platforms? Uh, I'm guessing from what you've already said that you might think that it's needed.
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Um, but, um, could you tell us w- you know, what do you see is a possible likely outcome of, of, of regulation, what it might look like or m- what you think might work?
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Uh, and also, what, you know, do you think Facebook and others will do in response to that? Yeah. I think the antitrust cases ag- against companies like Facebook are, are interesting.
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I, I feel like it's less of a- I think they have a good case to make that it doesn't make sense to break them up.
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Um, [laughs] I mean, I, I could be wrong, but I would be really interested to s- I would be really, like, skeptical of the fact that, like, the company's like, "Hey, you can't operate WhatsApp anymore."
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And they'd be like, "They're, they're two different things," right? Yes, they're both messaging apps, but it, it just really wouldn't make sense.
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I think there's more of a case when it comes to Google and Apple there, Apple especially.
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There was a, a good New York Times story yesterday about the fact that it's, it's crazy how they promote, you know, their own software within their own hardware, th- the fact they own both sides of the business while operating a marketplace.
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I think [laughs] there's, there's more of a case there.
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Um, but when it c- does come to social media, I think we will see changes for when it comes to privacy and, and advertising, you know, something that I've been covering for a while.
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It's just whether it's continuing to fine them wh- when they, um, make, you know, bad decisions, um, more slaps on the wrist, but it's actually changing their behavior and, and altering the data they can collect.
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You know, like once... There was that scandal recently about Facebook. Supposedly it was an accident that they collected all these email addresses, right, and was using them for the wrong ways.
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They were using them for advertising when they weren't, they d- didn't get those permissions. I think we're gonna be seeing more change there, and, and it's fascinating to me.
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You know, I'm based in the US, but when I travel to Europe and I'm, like, in London, and it's just this idea that you have to kind of accept permissions all the time to take actions on sites.
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I think we're gonna see s- seeing more of that there, and, and companies like Facebook having to be more forthcoming about the ways they use your data. Hmm. Interesting stuff.
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I'm, it, it fascinates me too, the regulation side of things, and it's something that we'll probably talk about a fair number of times over the coming weeks in, in this podcast.
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But, um, it's c- certainly one that's gonna go on for some time yet, I think. Definitely. Slow coming, but coming, I would say. [laughs] Yeah. Um, now Kerry, at, at the risk of sounding like a therapist- [laughs]...
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let's talk about you. Uh, so you're a media reporter, and yet you're probably more associated with tech reporting. So do you think there's much of a divide between tech and media anymore?
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Yeah, I've had l- I've had a lot of different jobs, but I've also had a lot of different, like, job titles. Uh- [laughs]...
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but, and maybe that's just because I like, I could just c- always call myself a reporter, but for some reason I like putting a word before it.
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Uh, and for a while, when I first really started in this industry, I was a, quote, unquote, "tech reporter," and really that was covering, like, the business of tech and the business of companies, like we were just talking about.
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Covering regulations, covering companies like Facebook's earning reports, executive moves, acquisitions, and that whole strategy.
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But one thing I've always kept my eyes on is how media companies have been affected by platforms like Facebook and, and the whole digital ecosystem.
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And now kind of I've reversed beats and I, [laughs] and I cover kind of the media side of it. But w- at the same time, the intersection of those two, media and tech, I, I find fascinating.
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That's kind of how I pitched myself to CNN was I, when I was interviewing here. L- literally one of the editors asked me, being like, "Well, don't you think you should be on the tech team?
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Like, why are you applying to this media job?"
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And my immediate response was that I think the tech industry is the biggest thing affecting the media industry, so I think having someone with my insights is, is extremely valuable.
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And, you know, now I work here, so [laughs] again- [laughs]... I see myself more as a media reporter with a, a super, like, you know, close eye on tech.
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Um, for instance, I was just at Facebook the other day chatting with them about their upcoming News tab. You know?
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So th- those are really stories that I'm keeping my eyes on, the way that social networks are where we go, where a lot of people go to consume their news, so how is that affecting media companies and how is that affecting us, the, [laughs] the world at large?
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Yeah. Um, yeah, it, it comes back actually to something that, um, Dave Lee at the BBC wrote a few years ago. He, he wrote something that, um, uh, every news desk should have a tech reporter on it because tech is- Hmm...
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everything now. So- Totally... yeah, it's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yeah. Matt? Yes.
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Well, I'm, I'm talking about tech and new tech and then things that are going on in the world of social, let's, um, head back into, uh, a topic that I believe is close to your heart right now.
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Uh, do you have a little bit of a, a fascination with TikTok, Kerry? Would that be fair to say?
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Honestly, I'm kinda tired right now 'cause, one, it is early here in New York, but two, I might have been up late watching TikToks.
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[laughs] So [laughs] yeah, yeah, I, I think it's fair to say I'm pretty fascinated by it personally and professionally. [laughs] Let me guess, it's gonna be involving a lot of dog things- [laughs]...
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'cause you like things to do with dogs and animals. Is that, would that be true as well?
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A lo- one thing I love about TikTok is the algorithm, which is really weird to say because usually we talk about, like, hating on algorithms. But TikTok's algorithm is just so good because it just knows I love dogs.
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Like, you know? Like, I never told them I love dogs, but because I consume so much content about dogs, it knows, and it serves me more dog content, and it makes my life very enjoyable.
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[laughs] Well, so talk, just rewinding slightly just for those people that, um, uh, haven't used TikTok so much. For some people it's, it's all they do.
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Um, other people, it's still a bit of an unknown quantity and a bit of a mystery to them.
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So, you know, for those that aren't so familiar with it, can, uh, can, uh, you know, how is it different and what is special about it and, uh, and why does it matter? Uh, can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah.
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I, I think the way I would describe TikTok is actually I'm going to borrow the words of a creator who spoke at a TikTok panel at Cannes, the advertising festival, this year.
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Her name's Drea Knows Best, and she described TikTok as, quote, unquote, "therapy," which [laughs] and I- [laughs]...
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kind of, you know, I agree to that, this idea that, like, there's a reason I stayed up late last night to, like, watch TikToks. It's short-form video content, right? Which is exactly what Vine was. It, unlike TV, right?
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Like, actually last night I watched one hour of television, then I watched a bunch of TikToks, right? It, it's just different consumptions of media, different forms of entertainment.
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But one thing that's just, again, amazing about TikTok is their technology, right?
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Their, the fact that, like, I'm not disappointed by the content I get served because seemingly it knows me so well and- And I think one thing that's just really cool about the community on there, what I like it because unlike Instagram, it just seems like less judgmental, uh, and more participatory.
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Like I... One, I deleted Instagram, and we don't need to go into that, but like just it- I bring it up to say that like I've made like six TikTok videos now just because I feel so comfortable sharing it.
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While like I didn't really make that many Vines because I just felt like it was... Like I would be judged by making Vines 'cause my Vines weren't that cool, you know?
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But like TikTok is just like anyone can participate, and it's just fun and awesome. I mean, obviously it's not 100% perfect. No app is 100% perfect. There are dark places.
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But for now, it just, it just seems like a, a great place to be and participate in.
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And they, and they're just getting started now on the, the ads side of things, and I know you've written a couple of pieces about that one at Digiday at least.
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And, and they are sort of starting to, uh, entertain, uh, the agencies and marketers out there with the potential, um, strengths and benefits of using TikTok.
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Um, do you see that as something that, uh, is gonna be, uh, received well by people who are using TikTok? Do you think that marketers and advertisers should be jumping on it and be excited by it?
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And, and should Facebook be nervous? Yeah. Well, I think m- marketers get pretty excited by like quote-unquote shiny objects, and TikTok is the shiny object, right?
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You wanna be like interested and aware of the new thing. Um, and the audience is kind of... Way, the way TikTok is pitching is the audience is, one, very young, and two, very engaged.
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It reminds me of the pitch that Snapchat used to make and at the same time still makes. And so advertisers are interested in that. At the same time, it's like how much, um, lift is it for them to make the ads?
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I wrote a story at Digiday that like, honestly, when they opened up advertising, the ads on there were like pretty low quality, and that's just because like advertisers didn't know how to make the ads.
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Because it's, sure, it's like short-form video. They've done that before. But it, it's different the way you speak to the audience.
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So I think that's gonna be one of the most difficult things for advertisers and for TikTok, is that kind of like education component and trusting advertisers that it's worth their time when it's so easy to make a Facebook ad.
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And at the same time, it's not easy to make a television ad, but companies are so like used to how to make a television ad. Um, and it's true- Should Facebook be nervous? Yes. [laughs] Should Facebook be nervous?
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I mean, I think there's a reason they made their app called Lasso, their quote-unquote TikTok clone. Um, I think that was them like, you know, s- wanting to keep an eye to the medium.
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I think obviously Facebook should be nervous because anything that makes people spend less time on Facebook should make them nervous, and anything that is potentially getting ad dollars away from Facebook also should make them nervous.
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So, so yes, but it's, it's a small app right now. It's, it's not the end of the world. And you're seeing Facebook diversify, right?
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They're now stepping into like cryptocurrency, and they're doing dating now even though they're not making money off of it. Though they're testing, you know, subscriptions with TV services.
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Like they're, they don't need to worry about just one app. Should they keep their eyes on it? Yes, but like it's not the end of the world yet.
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[laughs] A quick yes-no, will it still be here in two years' time and as successful as it is now or, or even more successful? Or is it gonna sort of ebb away, do you think? What's your gut feeling?
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Yeah, I think it'll still be here, and I think it'll be more popular for sure. I think they don't... You know, we talk about it a lot, but like they, they haven't hit saturation yet, you know?
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Like I, I think Snapchat has in the US for sure, but like TikTok hasn't. Like, I think you could walk around here, even here in New York, and, and not everyone would know about it.
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So, so yeah, I think sadly Vine died, but it had a good, you know, like many years running, and so it's just the beginning for TikTok. So I'm excited to see it two years from now.
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Martin, let's talk a bit about Facebook while we're bringing them into the conversation. Uh, what, you had a question about that for Kerri? Yeah, yeah.
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So, um, uh, do you think Facebook can shake off the bad reputation it's brought upon itself?
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'Cause, uh, there was a time when everyone would talk pretty positively about Facebook, and if there was any negativity, they'd be given the benef- benefit of the doubt.
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And, uh, more often than not now, whenever there's a conversation about Facebook, even when it's about something positive they've launched, you know, they've launched something that's quite a new, cool new product, there's always, "But there's always the data stuff."
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[laughs] Um, is, is this, is this Facebook's lot now? Is this how we're always gonna talk about them? Yeah, it's a good point.
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Like kinda, you know, when Facebook Dating launched, I feel like five years ago we would've been like, "Wow, Facebook launched a new feature called Dating." [laughs] "It's awesome. Like, you should use it."
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And now we're like, "Oh, God. Facebook is gonna leak all your secret crushes," you know? [laughs] Like, and it's like- [laughs]... a completely different narrative for sure.
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Um, I would say that it's not just a Facebook problem. I think it's the larger tech industry. Um, I think you had said earlier that like, you know, more tech, more desks of newsrooms should have tech reporters.
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We, we have a lot of tech reporters in general now, and I, I think, so there's more people kind of paying attention to how these businesses operate, and I think the world at large has, has woken up to this idea.
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So I think it, it's not just, uh, Facebook having a bad rep. It's, it's tech in general. We, we'd say a lot of like, you know, bad stuff about even, even TikTok, right?
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Like, people are skeptical by the fact that TikTok is based in China, right? Which, okay, there's some val- validity to that, but it's also like, wait, is that necessarily a horrible thing?
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Are you, are you just making something up because you're scared? Like, you know, it's, it's that, it's that criticism where sometimes it's warranted. Sometimes maybe it's like, "Wait, what are, what are you saying?
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Did you [laughs] did you actually look into it?" Um, but I, I think it's good to be skeptical. I, I think Facebook, and, will never shake off the bad reputation. Like they, because they keep making news.
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Like, I just finished Mike Isaac's book about Uber, and it was fascinating where he talks about there was, when they had Dara, the new CEO, come in, one of their strategies was like, "Okay, we cannot do anything.
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Like, please don't make any headlines. Like, let's just be as boring as possible."
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[laughs] The issue with Facebook is like I don't think they ever wanna be boring as possible, and therefore, like, they'll keep doing things, and the media will, will keep, um-...
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analyzing it, and sometimes that includes being extremely critical Is, is- Do you think the media are too harsh on Facebook at times?
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Or do you think they're, they're, they're pretty fair and even-handed with all, with the coverage that they get? Uh, I think [laughs] there's a lot of, like, yeah, like snark and, and like, you know, Oh, Facebook again.
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Like, um, but I think it's, it's really warranted a lot. I, and I think Facebook, you know, for what it's worth, and I, I, I don't know, but [laughs] there's only so much you can trust.
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But Sheryl Sandberg, you know, I hear- I've heard her talk so many times, and, and I think they have kind of, this could be all PR speak, but they're like, "We listen to you, and we kind of want you to criticize us," right?
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Like, at the same time, they obviously, when they get criticized, then they, like, yell at reporters.
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But there is, like, value to the fact that m- media is, is kind of hovering over this company to make sure that they don't, you know, pull mistakes that affect billions of people because they're just that massive.
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Like, I think at some times Facebook seemingly doesn't realize their scale for when they have problems. It's like, you're not just affecting one person, you know? You're affecting billions of people.
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Yeah, I think you're right, and I think, um, that f- um, Facebook, whenever I've had interactions with them on a, on a media front, uh, have always seemed to be the, the most nervous and twitchy and secretive- [laughs]...
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and resistant to engage o- of all of the, uh, social networks.
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But they, they all, to a degree, as we all know, the, the famous kind of, uh, where you c- you know, it's off the record kinda conversations they want to have with reporters is still an ongoing, uh, issue, and I'm, I'm not even a reporter, but I know that from them talking to me.
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Yeah. Um, but, um, I, I could talk about that for hours, but one of the other things we wanted to talk a little bit about is, is moving on to Twitter. Um, so we had, um, uh, people from Twitter last week.
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We had Sarah on there from the product development team, and, uh, one of the questions I put to her is that Twitter is often criticized for, for moving slow and being a little bit indecisive or more than a little bit indecisive.
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[laughs] Uh, and also the fact that it's a bit complicated for new users. That's another criticism that people have and as well as the fact that it's a bit of a one-trick pony. It's a speed and brevity for news thing.
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That's its kinda core value proposition that it has over all the other platforms. Um, do you think that Twitter has more to give, and, and do you think the criticisms are fair and valid at the moment?
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B- I think that's very... Oh, well, one, I love Sarah. I really enjoyed that podcast. I think I've had the pleasure of chatting with her a lot before, and she's wonderful.
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So to give Twitter credit, there are great people that work there, and one, it, I mean, I'm biased. Like, I use the product all the time, so [laughs] have to acknowledge that.
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But, but I think it's really fair criticism, the fact that they, it's, it's, well, yeah, it is kind of a one-trick pony. Like, it's pretty simple.
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Like, Twitter's hasn't really changed much in the last, like, I think, I don't know, I've been on for 10 years now, in the last 10 years that I've obsessively been using it.
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Um, I think at the same time, there's kind of a reason for that. They themselves have tr- kind of made them into a one-trick pony now.
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Like, when they rebranded from being, uh, calling themself in the app store from being a social app to a news app, they kinda just really focused their messaging, being like, "That's kind of, like, what we want to be for people."
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And ins- instead of before where they were, like, battling with Facebook and, and trying to do the same as them and, and Facebook trying to be Twitter, it's, like, kind of like maybe it's better to be simple, and I give them kind of credit for that.
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You know, they, they've made a big push into obviously, like, video, um, but especially live video, and again, like, that's kind of the big thing that they've done, and that fits into the narrative that they've made for themselves.
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So I think that's not necessarily a bad thing. So one app that isn't discussed quite as much as the other ones we've been talking about so far is, uh, Snapchat.
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It used to be the, the big hot thing, and it's not really talked about that much anymore apart from when people say, "Hey, Snapchat launched a, a cool new feature. Remember Snapchat?" Uh, so what's going on over there?
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Uh, is it, is it still something we should be paying attention to? Uh, well, I must disclose that m- I personally talk about Snapchat all the time, maybe to a fault.
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[laughs] Uh, literally the other day one of my friends was like, "You know, I, I've have, um, I've deleted Instagram, and it feels great. You know, I just wish that I could see people's stories and I could message them."
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I was like, "Oh, sounds like Snapchat." You know?
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[laughs] Like, literally she was talking about, like, having it, like, oh, like if s- Instagram would be great if it didn't have a feed, and I'm like, "Literally, that's Snapchat."
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Anyway, um, I'm just apparently the only one there. Uh, no, at the same time, I, I think that's kind of a harsh criticism, um, though we should be critical of tech companies as we've, as we've talked about.
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Snapchat still has what's... I, I feel like I have it written, but what, they have, like, close to 200 million daily active users. That's not nothing, right? That's, that's not Facebook level.
285
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That's, um, but it's, it's comparable to, like, Twitter, right?
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Like, it's like we give Twitter so much attention, but we don't talk about Snapchat when actually its audience, sure, again, is not as big as, as Facebook, but it's a really big, engaged audience.
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Um, a- and I just think maybe people don't give it credit because it's, it's not e- they thought it was gonna be, be bigger than it was.
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Um, and [laughs] so I guess the, the future of Snapchat- [laughs] They're doing, they're doing a lot.
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Like, there was the news, uh, yesterday was that they're, uh, launching a new page for the 2020 election, um, 'cause one thing that they're trying to do is just make sure that they're kinda serving the audience that they have the best they can, and they've noticed that the audience they have actually enjoys consuming political content, which is super interesting and, and at the same time like a cool, like, kind of responsibility they're taking on, that, like, if you have a bunch of younger people who are engaged with our app, wanna try to educate them about the, the political landscape right now, uh, for the 2020 election in the US.
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So things are happening there. I'm still there, so if you wanna friend me, follow me @kariannflynn. Talking about people at, at Snapchat, so there's Evan, of course, and then we have the man at Twitter, Mr.
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Dorsey, Jack, who had some problems in recent weeks with his Twitter account as we all discussed last week on the podcast, and we have, uh, Mark Zuckerberg.
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Uh, I wondered if, if you had, uh, the geekiest house party at your swanky pad that I'm sure you've got in New York, uh, who of those three is, is gonna be the smartest guy in the room?
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You know, I, I don't know if you've had a chance to interact with them or you've just got a take on who they are as people from all the years of reporting you've done, but what's your take on them th- as a three, as a trio?
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Would [laughs] say the, the smartest guy in the room. It, it would actually be the youngest guy in the room, Evan Spiegel. Uh, I've, you know, had the pleasure of, uh, being in the same room as him before.
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I weirdly never chatted with him, um, but [laughs] I've been, like, r- literally next to him, and I've heard, obviously chatted with a lot of people who have spoken with him, and they actually all say that.
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Evan had this really bad boy reputation in the beginning, for sure, and [laughs] at the same time, like, weirdly, you know, still does. I feel like people bring up, um, a certain thing he s- once maybe said in college.
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Um, but uh, he, he is kind of weirdly respected for being a smart, thoughtful guy, and at the same time, maybe to a fault, right?
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Like, some people blame that he was so kind of focused on his own vision at Snapchat that it kind of made a bad culture. At the same time, he's really smart.
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Uh, so [laughs] you know, if I could only have one guy at my party, it would probably be him. Dorsey, I, I've heard, you know, from other people that he can be really quiet and awkward.
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At the same time, I'll never forget years ago, we were at the, you know, the same conference.
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I went to a conference he was speaking at, and I actually ended up being seated right behind him, and I stood up, you know, and he stood up and we were about to leave and, and I, you know, kind of, like, started to...
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I wanted to say hi to him, and he actually ended up turning round and being like, "Hi, I'm Jack." And I was like, "Oh, I'm Carrie." And he was like, "I know who you are."
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And it was like one of those things where, like, people say he's, like, shy and awkward. [laughs] At the same time, he just introduced himself to a reporter, you know?
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Like, it's like he, [laughs] you know, maybe we all have our moments. Um, and I really- [laughs]... I really respect him by the fact that he's had an amazing turnaround story in his career.
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And you know, he's older, you know, so he k- has kind of had that moment in his life where he got kicked out of Twitter, right? Like, he was failing as a CEO.
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He was not doing his job, and he got fired, and what did he do? He literally started another company which is extremely successful, Square. You know, like, and now he's back as CEO of Twitter.
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Again, there was a period a few years ago or a couple years ago where, um, investors were really criticizing him and being like, "He can't run two companies," like, "No way," like, "Twitter's failing.
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We need to kick him out. He should only do one job." I haven't heard people say that recently because both companies are doing really well, and again, I re- like, really respect that. Like, that's, that's awesome.
309
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That's incredible. Not many people can say they run two successful companies. Uh, and I guess so lastly, I, I haven't talked much about Zuckerberg. Um, I think, uh, [laughs] he's, he's smart.
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You can't deny he's not smart for, for having founded Facebook and, and continuing to run and grow that company and, and make really smart acquisitions too. Like, give him credit for buying Instagram.
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Give him credit for buying WhatsApp. Oculus isn't perfect right now, but like, you know, I, I, it, I'm sure it's, it's a smart bet on the future of VR. Uh, so, so good for him.
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I think I would say I have, like, kind of the less, like, the least amount of respect for him just because of the way he operates. Um, but- [laughs]...
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but, uh, uh, at the same time, I- it would be wonderful to have all three of them at my house party. That would be the, the, the most- [laughs]... geek party ever in the world. It would just be insane.
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I don't know if, um, what would be discussed, but I'd, I'd definitely wanna be at that party. [laughs] That's for sure. Um, Martin, l- let's talk about something in years gone by, old school social.
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Old school social, yes.
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Uh, 'cause, uh, we talk often about the, uh, the social networks that broke through and, uh, and the big successes, but there are always the ones that never quite made it, the kind of Ellos of this world, the, the, the, um, uh, the Peach of this world.
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You know, the- these kinds of, uh, apps that, uh, everyone maybe got excited about for five minutes and then they mainly dropped off the, uh, dropped off the radar of everyone.
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So, um, looking back, were there any you think that should have made it that didn't? Uh, should've made it but didn't.
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Um, well, weirdly I guess, like, what's sad, I, I covered the kind of the rise of mobile live streaming. It was sad to see Meerkat die [laughs] and Periscope rise, you know? Like- [laughs]...
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just because, you know, it's, they were both two great apps. The issue is they just literally did the same thing and one of them had the support of Twitter, right?
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So it was just sad to see Meerkat die 'cause I kinda liked... It was like, again, two different companies but like the Uber/Lyft situation, right?
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It was kind of cool to have, like, two different things that, apps that did the same thing and, and people kind of, there were Meerkat stars and there were Periscope stars, right?
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And it was, it was awesome and I miss that. But, and another app that I guess, like, um, [laughs] it, I think it's dead now and I, I really miss it.
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When I was at Mashable, I, I think I wrote a story ti- uh, titled Someone Please Save Yo. And it was about- [laughs] If you guys remember the app called Yo, they literally, like- Oh, yes...
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the guy who runs it at the time had, had launched, like, a, uh, like, a GoFundMe or something because he just didn't wanna pay for the server costs of Yo anymore because- [laughs]... [laughs] they, it was still running.
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And I'm like, Yo was such a beautiful thing too. It was so simple. Speaking of a product being so focused, like, literally all you did- [laughs]... was yo someone. It was awesome.
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Yeah, so literally all it was, for anyone who doesn't remember it, it was just like a, a, you, you just sent, um, a little yo sound to, to people. [laughs] They, they, they tried to turn it into a platform later- Yeah...
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didn't they? But, uh, but yeah. Well, and it, 'cause they had, like, this sponsorship or, like, integration with, like, the World Cup at the time that, like, you could- [laughs]...
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sign up to get a yo whenever a goal was scored, and I was like, that was cool. You could, like, integrate that with any notification. At the same time I think it was, like-
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We were already dealing with like it being a notification overload. [laughs] Did you really want an app that was just to annoy you? Like, probably not. [laughs] But I- there's a big part of me that appreciates that.
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And none of us are crying about the, the, the death of, of the most important of these, these amazing social networks, Google+. Ugh. Come on, people. Google+-- w- w- you know, I, I still s- sometimes shed a tear.
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I absolutely don't. It was, it was absolute junk. [laughs] Aw. Come on, it was lame. But- It was just never going anywhere. Well, yeah- It was rubbish... that's true.
333
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There were people who loved it, though, and they loved it for a reason. It-- you could build a really nice community, um, there.
334
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Uh, and it reminded me, the vibe there reminded me of FriendFeed, which is the one that I really miss from 10 years ago. FriendFeed invented the real-time feed. Now, that's something we take for granted these days.
335
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You open TweetDeck or whatever and, and all the s- tweets are streaming in real time, uh, and that's just normal stuff these days, table stakes.
336
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But back then, I remember the day they switched on real time, and it was amazing. Like, you saw texts fly by at an amazing speed as all the users suddenly went, "Whoa, this is in real time now" and everyone went crazy.
337
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And, uh, it was such a beautifully engineered product.
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And, um, uh, uh, one of the guys, one of the founders went on to be, uh, Facebook's CTO and, um, uh, yeah, it was, it was, uh, it, it, well, it was acquired by Facebook, and they used like the real-time feed tech and things.
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But, uh, uh, but, uh, uh, there is still actually a community on Facebook. There's a Facebook group, uh, called FriendFeeders, I think it's called. [laughs] Something like that.
340
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And on there I discovered, because Facebook started surfacing groups a bit more again that you maybe you've been members of for years and f- have, have forgotten about.
341
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I started seeing some Fr- FriendFeeders, uh, content. And I mean, people are still from 10 years ago who met on FriendFeed sharing stuff and discussing stuff on this, this Facebook group.
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So, uh, these communities can live on well beyond the, uh, the death of the, uh, the products that they are built around. Yeah, that's so true. If there was ever any doubt about us being geeks- [laughs]...
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that whole last two minutes has just shown the world how nerdy we really are.
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What-- do you think that the-- it's possible for, um, a social network that's completely new, cold start, fresh, not backed by any major company to actually make a, a, a viable shot at, uh, taking on, on the big guns and having a, a, a new big major social network?
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I'm guessing the answer is yes to a degree, but, uh, uh, I dunno, Carrie, what, what you're thinking about that these days. I dunno. I, I think, yeah, [laughs] it's a good point. I, I, I guess I hope so.
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Like, you know, I-- when I joined Digiday I, I said that I wanted to pay attention to the next like social app, you know? And, and I didn't know what that would be.
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Like, the last one I feel like I covered that was new was Snapchat, and then TikTok happened, you know? Like, and, and I st- have, have been covering that ever since.
348
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So I didn't know that was gonna, you know, make it through. So I guess I am confident that [laughs] uh, another, another quote unquote TikTok could rise and start to get attention. I don't know what that will be.
349
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I think one thing we're starting to see, you know, to look at Facebook kind of like what are they starting to move toward is the, uh, groups, you know?
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And kind of, uh-- and, and then looking at Facebook groups and then looking at Instagram more of like a passion base. I think there's so much power in, in that.
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Like, people have like hobbies and obsessions, and, and what you wanna do is, is go to places where you can consume content about that, right? Like, the people listening to this podcast right now, like, they love tech.
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They wanna geek out about tech and social. Like, the next social network needs to like provide that, right?
353
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Like, make an experience where like I feel like there's a reason I'm connected on this, this internet platform, right? Like, bring me joy. Don't bring me like, like badness.
354
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[laughs] Like, you know, I only have so much time in the world. Again, so that's why I guess I give credit to Facebook's like really emphasis on, on groups and Instagram too maybe making...
355
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And even, even Twitter helping you follow conversations, right? Like, for passions and not just people. Uh, so maybe there's a company that will just be more focused on that. I just wanted to know what your thoughts are.
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What, what do you think social media's gonna look like and how will it operate 10 years from now, which is a huge window in the, in the scheme of tech. 10 years is like so far away, and so much can change.
357
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But I think that for me, that's a timeframe where it could be potentially substantially different.
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And so I just wonder what your, um, imagination conjures up of what social media and social platforms would look like i- in, in the year, what will it be then, 2029? Uh, wow, 2029. It's a, it's a big question.
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And, you know, I, to give credit to like, like cinema, I've been watching, uh, Years and Years, the show that I think started on the BBC and is now on HBO here.
360
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And, and they're-- I think they are like, you know, like 10 years in the future, and weirdly they just referenced Twitter.
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So like, I guess to, to give like credit to that show and, and from my opinion too, like I think we'll still have the same apps.
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I, I hope that, that Twitter won't die, that we'll still be using it, and it'll still be a place to consume news and, and follow people. You know, f- for us to follow each other and DM each other.
363
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I, I think we'll, we'll still see Facebook, but to, to what I said earlier, I think we're gonna see more of an emphasis on groups, you know?
364
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And, and kind of like having people being willing to break up the experiences as in like, okay, this is where I go to communicate with my friends.
365
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This is where I go to follow my passions and communicate with people who I, I don't necessarily see every day. And then I see more power in, um, less of the likes, right?
366
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I, I think we're-- the way that companies are, both Twitter and Facebook are trying to experiment with less vanity metrics and less kind of experiences that make you feel bad about yourself and, and more just consuming content for content.
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I think we're gonna see that. And also, Evan Spiegel was really smart when he made Snapchat, and he made a, an app of like kind of a, a social network for the medium of our time.
368
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Uh, so that's why, you know, Facebook made this bet on VR, right?
369
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I don't know if we're gonna have people really wearing VR, like, headsets r- as much in, in 10 years from now, but where, like, maybe it, there are more, like, kind of display things or, or maybe even though too, like, apps being adaptive to if our phones end up folding, right?
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Or, or we end up using kind of more converting from device to device, like apps being really adaptive to that rather than just tied to one thing. Um, and also just privacy.
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We, we talked about the regulation side of it, but I think consumers these days are less willing to give up their data.
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So I think we're going to have to see apps being willing to be really smart about that and, and maybe even Twitter introducing something where your tweets can, like, automatically delete, right?
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Like, isn't it crazy the fact that, like, Twitter hasn't introduced that feature themselves and instead people have to do workarounds?
374
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I think, you know, we, we have Snapchat who obviously have disappearing messages, and we've had Facebook em- embrace that trend, and I think we'll see more of that.
375
00:55:48.380 --> 00:55:55.220
So we're not gonna have any Black Mirror kind of those little dot things that stick on the side of your head and suddenly you get transported into this virtual world.
376
00:55:55.260 --> 00:56:02.820
That's kind of the, that's the future that I imagine, but I'm so Netflix. That's, like, tw- like, I know 20 might even... That's, like, 30 years from now. Like, I don't know.
377
00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:12.960
Like, l- last night, that show, Years and Years, the girl had their phone implanted in her hand. I'm like, "Whoa, is that gonna happen?" [laughs] Like, I d- maybe in the future, but, like, I don't think we're there yet.
378
00:56:13.120 --> 00:56:22.680
[laughs] Yeah. I, I, I think Years and Years is really good, and, uh, I would recommend people watch it. Uh, it's mostly on point with its, uh, suggestions of how tech will develop, I think.
379
00:56:23.040 --> 00:56:31.670
Um, some of it, the bit you mentioned there, I won't go into too much detail in terms of spoilers, but, uh, there are bits and pieces in it where they seem to have fast-forwarded technology about 50 or 100 years- Yeah...
380
00:56:31.740 --> 00:56:37.030
just to make the plot move quicker. Got it. But other than that, it's just really good, and also it, it was made in the city I live in- Oh...
381
00:56:37.120 --> 00:56:44.900
uh, Manchester in the UK, and there's a scene in the first episode where they're all banging on the doors of a bank because- Yeah... the financial system has collapsed, and they're saying, "Give me my money back."
382
00:56:45.180 --> 00:56:54.440
I walk past that building- Of course... like, regularly. [laughs] And, uh, so I have this, like, idea of looming dystopia- [laughs]... that, uh, immediately snaps into my head as soon as I walk past that building.
383
00:56:54.450 --> 00:56:59.840
I'm like, "Ah, banks collapse today." Oh my gosh. "It'll happen." That's terrifying. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Well, I hope that doesn't happen. When we get to the stage where- Yeah...
384
00:56:59.850 --> 00:57:08.200
you can download your brain, like Elon Musk style neural link whatever, I'm, I'm first in the queue. I'm, I'm totally down for all of that shit. [laughs] You know, and that's, that's me all over.
385
00:57:08.260 --> 00:57:18.620
But, um, anyway, we'll see. We'll... Some time to wait before we're gonna get to that stage, I think. [laughs] I think so. Not 10 years, but, but maybe. Maybe one day. Keep me updated when you hear about it. Sounds good.
386
00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:29.300
Right. It's time now for quick hits. Social media companies are always testing new things and launching useful little tweaks, and we'll share the most important ones with you each week. Matt? Yes.
387
00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:36.240
This is my bread and butter. So let's dive in and see what we've had this week. Um, first thing was, uh, last week I found some stuff to do with Twitter.
388
00:57:36.360 --> 00:58:02.780
So there was some new features to do with lists and topics, uh, in their iOS app, sort of hidden away, secretly kind of being played with by, um, the developers at Twitter, um, with some, uh, UI and UX pieces I found which sh- showed, um, a new tab, um, or several new tabs that they, um, might be playing with that, uh, are for lists and, uh, for shortcuts and some other, um, elements which we already know exist but, uh, are yet to, uh, be appear as a separate tab.
389
00:58:03.180 --> 00:58:08.600
Uh, there was also a shortcut button to s- create a new, uh, list, a bit like a, a new tweet button.
390
00:58:09.450 --> 00:58:19.960
Um, there was a m- um, some information about topics being in the, in your bio, so you can actually list information about the things that you're interested in, uh, that are topics that are set up within Twitter, so that would be interesting to see.
391
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:31.260
Um, and also a topic sidebar, so when you swipe from the, uh, left to your right and you have that sidebar on the iOS app, um, there's one that's gonna be there for topics, or it might be, depending if it gets, uh, launched, of course.
392
00:58:31.720 --> 00:58:38.380
Also this week, Facebook, uh, has been spotted l- letting you share moments from your Stories archive via its Memories feature.
393
00:58:38.540 --> 00:58:45.500
So, you know, at the moment you'll get a daily reminder or notification potentially that says, uh, "This is a memory from seven years ago today."
394
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:53.720
Well, they've now started playing around with doing the same for your Stories archive, and you can share bits of, uh, of your stories from, uh, this time two years ago.
395
00:58:53.760 --> 00:59:00.770
So it's just an extension of, of what we've seen with Memories and, and Instagram has a similar on this day feature as well with the Stories, uh, part of the product.
396
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:09.110
So that was, uh, spotted by a, a, a gentleman on Twitter called Lachlan Kirkwood. Uh, so thank you to him for, for finding that and tipping me off to that one.
397
00:59:09.860 --> 00:59:15.260
Also, on back to Twitter, um, they're showing you social activity on individual tweets by people you follow.
398
00:59:15.300 --> 00:59:21.540
So, uh, you'll see a tweet, and at the moment you only have the like and retweet counts, uh, on, uh, each individual tweet.
399
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:36.360
But on this one, within the kind of body of the tweet, just underneath the text of the tweet but above the counter for retweets and likes, there's a bit that shows you the little avatars for people that you follow, um, saying that, um, X, Y, and Z person, um, had liked this tweet.
400
00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:42.880
So it'll give you a bit more social verification of people that you follow have engaged with that particular tweet. So, uh, that'll be interesting to see if that rolls out.
401
00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:48.460
That was spotted by, uh, someone called Petreaga on, uh, Twitter. So thank you to them for that one.
402
00:59:49.180 --> 00:59:56.500
Also, WhatsApp for iOS, um, uh, starting to test on its beta app, um, s- support for the audio playback in notifications.
403
00:59:56.640 --> 01:00:09.180
So if somebody sends you a, a voice message, um, and you've got your phone closed and you get the notification, you're now able to play back that, um, audio clip from the notification itself without having to open up your phone in the app itself.
404
01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:15.860
Uh, this is only available to some testers on the beta app at the moment, so you might not, uh, have a chance to play with that unless you're on the beta.
405
01:00:16.080 --> 01:00:21.760
And even if you are on the beta, only half of the people probably will get it, uh, at the moment. So it's still, still some time to wait.
406
01:00:21.820 --> 01:00:32.260
But that one was, uh, from WABetaInfo on Twitter, which is always a great source of, uh, WhatsApp information. If you're American, beta. Beta, of course. I'm gonna be shouted at for that one, aren't I?
407
01:00:32.780 --> 01:00:41.760
Um, and then finally Facebook. Facebook again. So Facebook's got a new, um, automatic member approvals feature for groups, um, that's rolling out to more of, um, group admins.
408
01:00:42.140 --> 01:00:50.160
Uh, this isn't something that's completely new. It's something that we've, um, I've certainly seen, uh, from other people, and I think it's been even pub- publicly talked about by Facebook.
409
01:00:50.220 --> 01:00:54.560
But now it, it does appear to be rolling out to a few more people, and it will allow you to...
410
01:00:54.640 --> 01:01:18.500
I'm just gonna actually have a little look at it to remind myself that effectively you can choose certain criteria to say to people, um, you'll allow these people in the group, um, without any need for approving them if they've hit, uh, any of these criteria which are completed all of the membership questions or if they live in a certain location or within a certain radius of a location, if they're friends with someone else in the group specifically, or if they joined Facebook before a selected period of time.
411
01:01:18.580 --> 01:01:24.460
So no more having to kind of worry about accepting a new member into the group that's only been on Facebook for three months.
412
01:01:24.520 --> 01:01:30.380
You can set a criteria, and it'll auto-accept them into the group for you if, uh, if they hit a certain threshold that you can choose.
413
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:40.788
So that's an automatic, automatic members approval feature that, uh, hopefully we'll all get soon on Facebook Groups. Uh, I'd like to say thank you very much to, to Kerry for coming on and joining us.
414
01:01:40.908 --> 01:01:49.988
Uh, Kerry, who's a media reporter for CNN. Um, where can they find you online, and, uh, any details you wanna share with us that, uh, you want people to check out? Well, thanks so much for having me on, guys.
415
01:01:50.048 --> 01:02:00.968
I was honestly so excited to hear when you were launching a podcast, uh, because, one, like, podcasts are, like, super hot right now, and, like, two, it's an awesome medium to, like, you know, really talk about and geek out about this world.
416
01:02:01.228 --> 01:02:12.848
I think there's, uh, so much power to voice. So like, anyway, thanks for having me on. Uh, two, [laughs] uh, everyone can follow me at KerryMFlynn, K-E-R-R-Y-M-F-L-Y-N-N, on all platforms.
417
01:02:12.928 --> 01:02:21.628
Like, knock on wood, I've been able to sec- secure that handle on every single app. Like, someone asked me the other day, like, "Oh, would you, like, change your Twitter to @Kerry?"
418
01:02:21.928 --> 01:02:30.348
And I'm like, "No, because, like, KerryMFlynn is my handle." It's so easy to say one word rather than like, oh, I'm Kerry here, Flynn here, you know?
419
01:02:30.448 --> 01:02:37.878
So any app including Snapchat, that's, that's where you can find me at. As long as you like posts about dogs or bad jokes, I would say. But no- [laughs]...
420
01:02:37.968 --> 01:02:41.978
they are actually very good jokes, so don't worry about that at all. But thank you very much to, to Kerry for that.
421
01:02:42.028 --> 01:02:53.728
And, and if there are anybody else that wants to kind of hear a bit more about this sorta stuff and loves discussing all these sorts of geeky things outside of this podcast, um, you can join my Facebook group, which is called, uh, the Social Media Geek Out.
422
01:02:53.888 --> 01:03:06.228
You can find it on Facebook, uh, if you search for Social Media Geek Out, or it's forward slash-- uh, facebook.com/groups/socialgeekout. Uh, Martin, tell us a little bit about next week's show.
423
01:03:06.268 --> 01:03:14.788
It's a bit of a special one. Yeah, next week's show is gonna be really interesting. Uh, the kind of guest that you might not expect on a show like this but also a really, really good fit for it.
424
01:03:14.808 --> 01:03:22.028
Our special guest will be British MP and chair of the UK Parliament's Digital Culture, Media, and Sport Committee, Damian Collins.
425
01:03:22.128 --> 01:03:32.628
Uh, he's the man, uh, who has Facebook in his crosshairs and, uh, recently featured in the Netflix documentary, The Great Hack, which explored the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Yes, he is indeed.
426
01:03:32.768 --> 01:03:41.148
And he is the, at the forefront of the push for, from politicians and from the UK government side of things to, to hold social media companies and tech companies to, to account.
427
01:03:41.268 --> 01:03:45.748
So it's gonna be a, a really interesting con-- um, conversation. I cannot wait.
428
01:03:45.788 --> 01:03:54.068
And the, the number of questions I've already started planning for him, uh, are already onto two pages, so it's gonna be a, gonna be a long one which we might have to edit down. [laughs] Uh, yes.
429
01:03:54.128 --> 01:04:05.778
So Geek Out with Matt Navarra is a Big Revolution production. Uh, you can find out more at bigrevolution.net. You can find me on Twitter as @martinsfp. And I'm @mattnavarra on Twitter.
430
01:04:05.828 --> 01:04:14.828
And don't forget to tell everyone about the podcast. We still need to get people listening and sharing it, so, uh, do, do that. That'd be much appreciated. And, and try maybe leaving us a voice message.
431
01:04:14.868 --> 01:04:23.828
You can go to, um, uh, anchor.fm, and you will be able to find our show and leave a message, uh, on a voice, uh, message, and we can maybe play some of them out.
432
01:04:23.988 --> 01:04:33.468
So you need to visit, uh, anchor.fm/geekoutmattnavarra, and you'll find an option to, to do that, and we'll play some of them in future shows if we have some good ones to play.
433
01:04:33.988 --> 01:04:42.208
Um, so I think that's about it from us, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So we'll see you next week. And, uh, thanks for joining us, Kerry. Thanks for having me, guys. This was great.
434
01:04:42.588 --> 01:04:59.068
I was happy we were able to go on, and I'm really excited for next week's episode. It's pretty awesome. It's gonna be epic. But for now, goodbye, geeks. [outro music]