EP 3:55 Chemsex Recovery: The SMART Way

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Smart Recovery is a mutual support community.
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We come together in meetings, um, both online in person, all around the world, by the way.
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And as Zach said earlier, we use uh practical, uh evidence-informed tools uh uh to guide us.
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Uh they are not a prescription, they are not you must do this.
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They are just suggestions that people can use, and some will be useful, some won't.
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Chemsex.
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Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Thank you for tuning in today.
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I'm excited, very excited, to introduce two new friends of mine from Smart Recovery.
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I've been trying for probably the past year to try to get some uh alternative forms of recovery represented on the podcast, besides my own philosophy.
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Uh Smart Recovery, Dharma Recovery, Life Ring, um, you know, all the what is the other one?
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Naked Truth, maybe or something.
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Uh, but the you know, there's all sits of different routes you can take, and we haven't had any representation on the podcast.
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It's either 12 steps or I made my own way, like I did.
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Um, and so I'm really excited to we I I started to uh do some outreach to specific people to be on the podcast.
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And the the um the algorithm, I don't know if it's an algorithm, whatever it is, God's sent Gus to me, who is specific to chemsex and smart recovery.
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It was like the gold mine there.
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So I'm really glad to have uh my friends on here.
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I'm going to introduce them both.
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You um Gus, is it Curran?
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Sorry, I should have asked before.
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Is the senior oh good, good.
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Uh senior director of training and program development at Smart Recovery.
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Not just, he's that's not affiliated with Smart, he's the senior director of training and program development.
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Has more than 15 years of experience in adult learning and nonprofit training.
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He has also been a smart recovery facilitator for nearly a decade and brings lived experience with alcohol, meth, and chemsex PNP to his work.
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Gus has spent about 22 years of his life not using alcohol, meth, or other drugs, just not all in a row.
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Today he helps smart meeting facilitators, peer support specialists, clinicians, and community support people in finding their own path toward change and recovery.
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I love that.
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He currently hosts an LGBTQ plus smart recovery in Durham, North Carolina, close to me.
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And hopes it if you're in the area that you will stop by.
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Um, yes, and my other friend here is Zach Reedy.
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He's a C-A-S-A-C-T.
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He they is his pro is the pronouns, is a substance use counselor, recovery advocate, LGBTQ community leader, activist, and person in recovery based in New York City.
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Currently working in a women's residential substance use treatment program in Harlem, Zach brings years of experience serving LGBTQ and special population communities across substance use treatment, HIV prevention and care, mental health, homelessness, and community-based advocacy.
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Zach began their professional career at GMHC, the world's first AIDS service organization, and is currently pursuing a bachelor's degree in addiction studies.
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And perhaps most importantly, he's dog dad to the fame fabulous Gizmo.
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I love that.
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Zach also serves as president of Smart Recovery, NYC, working to expand access to practical, evidence-based, and inclusive approaches to recovery.
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Listen to that again.
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Practical, evidence-based, and inclusive.
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I love that.
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Drawing from both professional training and lived experience, Zach's work recognizes the realities of LGBTQ people may face, including stigma, isolation, challenges around identity and acceptance, chem sex-related challenges, and the need for affirming community.
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Harm reduction, self-compassion, and building a life and community worth showing up for are central to their approach.
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Love it.
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Zach believes recovery isn't about fitting into a mold, it's about building an authentic life that actually feels worth staying present for.
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As both a counselor and a person in recovery, he is committed to helping build recovery spaces that are empowering, accessible, compassionate, and responsive to the communities they serve.
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Wow.
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Love it.
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Love it.
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I need to update my bio.
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That one's a good idea.
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I got you.
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Yeah.
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Thank you both for being here.
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I'm already, I'm already giddy reading your reading your bios because it's just so in line with what I believe, but also so in line with what I believe is necessary in chemsex recovery.
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So I just want to start, Gus, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about your your story, if you don't mind.
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Oh yeah, sure.
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Um my story is not that unusual.
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Uh I I actually got sober the first time when I was 19.
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My mom sent me to rehab.
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That was I thought an overreaction, but I ended up staying sober for 12 years.
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And then in Los Angeles, uh, I got curious about like party drugs, particular particularly what we what we called ecstasy, you know, NDMA.
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And uh that was for me the gateway drug, forget pot, because NDA that led to the late night clubs, the overnight clubs, the all-weekend clubs, which led to the meth, which led to my you know my downfall.
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So um for me it got very I was very isolated in my use, but also longing for the kind of like connection uh that I thought I needed.
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I it was very strange.
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In most people that I talked to, um it it involved a lot of sex, and mine did involve a lot of sex, but it also was very sad, like alone with porn, alone at the sex club in my room watching porn, maybe getting with someone.
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So for whatever that's worth, I was at, you know, I would often ask people if they wanted to come home and watch like a Cindy Lauper DVD.
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They'd be like, yeah, and I'd be like, Oh, you're taking your pants off.
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Anyway, that's a whole nother talk.
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Uh but um, but I definitely had that um that brokenness.
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And when I when I stopped, I went to treatment, and it was a great treatment center in Los Angeles, but it was it was treating the meth addiction.
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And it wasn't until I started at Smart Recovery and I met facilitators who were doing the LGBTQ meetings, somehow I had missed the the chemsex train.
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Um people were asking me about it, and so got educated, learned so much from Zach actually, and I'm like, oh yes, we didn't treat the sex, we treated the meth, we didn't treat that I so closely now associate sex with meth.
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And so, you know, I've been I told Zach, I'm like, I feel like I was broken for years and I didn't even know it.
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Like, uh so more on that later, but I I just really um I'm really only now thinking about you know how that affected me, how I felt broken.
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By the way, I wasn't broken, but my brain was kind of rewired, and uh it's it's it's it's getting better.
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But I I just uh yeah, so it's been really interesting.
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I didn't get sober when I quit meth.
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I kept drinking.
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Um, and then 10 years ago, uh after my last relapse with math and two DUIs, I started with smart recovery, and now it's been 10 years.
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Um uh meth and alcohol free.
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And that is that is what I that's my goal.
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So it's been great.
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But pretty, pretty, pretty standard, uh, and also different everybody's different.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, it seems like there's this progression that happens to a lot of men where you know you start out the party, you start out the parties, and you keep going, and then you slowly trickle into the solo use of locking yourself in a bedroom with your porn for days.
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It's true, yeah, it's true, and it's it's so funny because in the beginning, the reason I loved meth is it made me confident, it made me feel good.
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I've never had great self-esteem as far as how I looked, and I'm like, I never felt like I'd fit in in the gay community.
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Suddenly I was like, Oh, I do fit in, I can dance.
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I I never did take my shirt up on the dance floor, but I was like, this is this is my people and I love it, and they're friends, and we're hanging out after, and we're doing stuff, and um that was great, and it just it that didn't last as long as I wanted it to, that's for sure.
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Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
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I was I was I had a sales call or not sales call a free coaching session earlier, but it's I was telling him like the whatever you it seems like whatever you're doing meth for, it it takes that away.
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Like if it is can if it is connection, you end up being isolated.
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You know, whatever it is you're doing it for, you get the opposite, oddly enough.
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It's true.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, thank you for sharing.
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And I want to come, I want to come back to a couple things you said, but let me get to Zach first.
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Zach, would you mind sharing a little bit about you, your story?
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Um, so uh I was raised by parents that weren't there, you know, very absent parents.
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And so I had to grow up pretty early.
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And I developed, you know, I I learned that I was gay about fifth grade and you know, came out in high school.
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And then, you know, but I I was really uh uh isolating already.
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And so when I was 27 years old on the apps after breaking up with my boyfriend, uh meth found me.
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You know, I was on on the apps, and there I am, you know, thinking I'm making friends, and this guy introduces me to drugs, to methamphetamine, and and it just goes downhill from there.
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You know, it started out as every now and then, you know, maybe every like once a month.
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That once a month quickly turned into every weekend, every weekend quickly turned into every day, every day turned into becoming losing my job, losing my car, losing my uh, you know, housing.
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And that really it quickly went downhill.
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I was living in Florida at the time in Orlando, and uh, you know, I became homeless.
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And after about six months of that, I I relocated to South South Florida down to Fort Lauderdale.
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And well, I was specifically in Wilton Manors, you know, gay Mecca of South Florida.
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And it was right, yeah, exactly.
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And it was, you know, and that that that was, you know, there was this community there of younger, queer men mostly that were doing drugs and doing meth and party and playing, you know, very small community down there.
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And I started, you know, it it was scary.
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I was homeless doing this on the streets.
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I was doing everything I needed to do to have a place to stay or you know, for the night.
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I was sleeping in a hammock when I could.
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I was sleeping around with, you know, to get a shower, to get a sandwich sometimes, you know, and it was really sad because people take advantage of the situation, you know, for the sex of it all and stuff like that.
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And so it really became part of who I was at that period.
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And then I ended up going to Broward House in four in Wilton Manors, uh prominent L LGBT uh rehab.
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And this was because I was during right after I started, I got diagnosed with HIV uh pretty quickly into uh using meth.
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And so honestly, if it wasn't for the HIV diagnosis, I would have, you know, that saved my life.
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It got me on medicine, it got me on blood pressure medicine.
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My blood pressure was extremely high growing up.
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I was always the bigger, bigger kid.
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Um, and so there I am, you know, going to you know, getting medical help, uh, my blood pressure 230 over 180.
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You know, they're like, How are you not stroking out and stuff like that?
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I'm like, I'm having a good time.
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And so I I went I went to that rehab and got stable for a little bit, but I wasn't ready to stop.
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You know, and so this is about two and a half years into my run, and I got discharged from that rehab and I moved into a storage unit and I found that queer community again.
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And here I am, Wilton Manors, you know, all this stuff has happened behind the scenes, and nobody really knows about it.
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And so at that same time, I discovered another part of this community, the Zoom community, and I became a Zoomer.
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And I started, you know, I had a laptop, you know, I had some Wi-Fi sometimes.
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And so here I am on Zoom doing meth with a bunch of guys in our little Hollywood squares.
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And I eventually developed, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And that's how it was, you know.
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And this was, mind you, this is pre-COVID too.
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This was 2019.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, we I was very familiar with Zoom Ring Central.
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Yeah.
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Um, you know, and so so that uh I became a huge part of that.
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I started running rooms, I started being the enabler that I didn't realize I was.
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And you know, it was we're always looking for every as a human being, we're always looking for community, we're looking for connection.
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And when we mix, you know, the substance use, the sex and stuff, we find it in the wrong places.
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You know, many people do experience finding community in the wrong places.
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And here I am, I do this for three years.
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You know, I eventually uh the psychosis kicks in all the time, and one day I decide I'm gonna up and leave South Florida and I hopped on a plane to visit somebody in New York City.
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Wow.
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And that didn't go well, and this was 2020, so this was right after the uh pandemic started.
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And so I fly to New York City uh June of 2020, and I'm in New York City for a day with that person, and I get kicked out of his place, and I end up uh wandering the streets for a little while for about a week, and then uh stay in Philadelphia Philadelphia for about a month and a half, and I come back to New York City where I find out there there's an opportunity for housing.
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They have a program here called HASA for people with HIV.
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And so once I got housing, I still wasn't ready.
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You know, I was put in this, it's called an SRO single room occupancy, and this is a shelter version for people with HIV up here.
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And uh, you know, I continued using the isolation started really quickly once I had a space that I could, you know, go home to, you know, going from being out, having sex and doing mess with a bunch of different guys to doing none of that alone on Zoom in this apartment that I have.
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And, you know, eventually I was doing that every day, the psychosis we kicking every day.
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It was pretty severe, you know, to the extent that I committed myself to a mental hospital for a 72-hour watch, you know, and that luckily got me some psychiatric help.
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And so I got put on medicine.
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And about a year later from that, I I I broke down and I went to uh my friend who lived on above the f of the floor above me, and I asked her for help, and she took me to my first CMA meeting, actually.
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Okay.
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And that was November 23rd, 2022, and I've been sober from meth since then.
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Wow.
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Wow, what a story.
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What a story.
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Thank you for the thing.
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Yeah, there's a lot of it that's not there that I, you know, to sum it up, but oh yeah, parts of it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Is it it's very interesting to me, like some of the groups that we have um in my program, like we'll have 10 10 guys together.
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There might be somebody from Zurich, might be somebody from Fort Lauderdale, might be somebody from Palm Springs or even Australia, and we instantly have the same experience.
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Like chemsex is chemsex, no matter where in the world it's happening.
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And the Zoom uh honestly is one of those things that brings us all together, you know, all over all around the world.
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And yeah, you're right.
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When I was using it, it was uh 16 and 15, wait, yeah, 16, 17, and 18.
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Um, and even then it was Zoom was the big thing.
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And you know, I was like, I I knew all about Zoom, and then somehow it came to came into to light in the in during COVID.
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But um, but yeah, thank you for sharing your story.
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What a miraculous story.
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And now you're working in you're both working in the in the field.
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It's it's it's funny, Dallas, when when Zach and I, Zach shared a screenshot of something you posted about the Zoom rooms, and it made me reflect on uh like the technology changes, but it's all the same, right?
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Like when I was at when I was in the throes of my addiction, it was AOL chat rooms, and then those kinds of weird numbers to meet local guys.
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And uh, you know, I'd go to a guy's house sight unseen, just like uh based on the phone call.
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Uh it's but here we are, you know, then it's uh what's next?
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Like it's just really it's really interesting generationally, the pain, the loneliness, the isolation, it's the same, but how we get there has changed.
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I there's something there that I find fascinating.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Well, you know, I I think you're asking what's next.
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I think AI is going to play a part.
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We have these AI, AI bots who will who can who will tell you what you want to hear.
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They will tell you to like force you to smoke meth and like you know, like Dom Daddy bot that some clients are using.
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And it's I think it's like we're turning to that now, you know, as a as a next as a next step somehow.
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Um But yeah, but the underlying core reasons that we're doing it never changes, right?
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I mean, for me, I I needed I needed to feel a approval.
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I needed to feel a part of, you know, because I I wasn't feeling that in my own community.
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Yep.
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Um and and again, what I let what I was left with was total isolation.
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You know.
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So well, I thank you for sharing your stories and thank you for for the work that you're doing.
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And I just want to I just want to start very 101, like I always do here.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:38.000
In case somebody's listening and they've never heard of Smart Recovery, um, you know, we have 50% of my listeners are in the US, but 40% are UK, uh, you're and in Europe, and then we have some scattered around everywhere else.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:39.599
Um so so I'm not sure.
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.240
Some people may not be aware of smart recovery.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:50.720
So I'd like it if if you know whoever wants to take the lead there, just give us a little overview of Smart Recovery, and I'm gonna put the the website as you're talking.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:52.559
I'm gonna share the website if you're watching.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:53.599
Okay, cool.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:19:03.839
Um, so Smart Recovery is a mutual support community who come together in meetings, um, both online, in person, all around the world, by the way.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:11.839
And as Zach said earlier, we use uh practical evidence-informed tools to guide us.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:19.920
They are not a prescription, they are not you must do this, but they are just suggestions that people can use, and some will be useful, some won't be.
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:26.720
But at its core, it's a community of people who are exploring their relationship to an addictive substance or addictive behavior.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.400
And and that's an important distinction, is that they're exploring the relationship.
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.039
When you come to smart, you don't have to say, I'm ready to stop, you know, I've hit my bottom.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.400
You don't have to do that.
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:44.000
Your goal is yours, you choose it, and uh no one's gonna try to change your mind.
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:45.119
Yeah.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:53.440
So earlier when you were sharing, you said I've been meth-free and I've been alcohol free, and those are my goals.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:55.200
Right?
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.400
So is that does that in line with with smart?
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:02.799
You say, This is what I want to do, this is my goal with whatever substance.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:04.400
Yeah, a hundred percent.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.880
So, for example, I've been struggling a lot since uh roughly like 2020.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.559
When did that anyway, recently, um, with everything happening in the world, and I've had trouble sleeping.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.359
So I've tried CBD, THC gummies.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.720
Um that would have really messed me up when I was younger.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:37.920
That would have been a lapse, that would have been a relapse, and that would have kicked in the the like uh what do they call it, the relapse uh violation effect, the the absence violation effect, which which people say to themselves, well, I've already done this, I may as well make the most of it.
00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.240
May as well take the weekend, take the week, take the month, right?
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:40.720
Oh right.
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.240
Whereas Smart Recoveries approach and my approach is you know, this isn't a drug I had problems with.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.519
I'm trying this, you know, it actually it didn't work, so I've stopped.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:54.319
But um but it doesn't define my recovery and my journey.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:59.200
And and it doesn't matter what anyone else says about that, it's it's my journey.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.200
So my red line is alcohol and math.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:13.759
Um and you know, not to say the rest is up to to to you know up for debate, but those are those are the things I believe I should never touch again.
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:14.559
Right.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:21.920
So then when you say sober, is that a is that an agreed upon word in smart recovery, what sober means?
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:22.880
Not really.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.720
I actually try to avoid it.
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.119
Um it's it's not in it there.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.519
That's one thing that's uh unique about smart too.
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:30.640
You choose your words.
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:38.079
Some people think they're in recovery, some people say they're in recovery, some people say they're on a journey, some people say I don't want to do meth anymore, right?
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:44.799
No we don't we don't have like perfect language for that, and that's one of the things that's so beautiful.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.119
We often say that smart recovery is accessible, adaptable, and affirming.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.440
So you kind of make it your own.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.880
You know, when I was going to AA all the time, it they used to say, take what you like and and leave the rest.
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:58.880
Except that wasn't totally true.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.759
Except it wasn't true.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.160
We really want you to take the take what works and leave the rest.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:08.720
Yeah.
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:09.759
Yeah.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.160
Yeah.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:10.480
Yeah.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:11.279
Love it.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:12.319
Love that.
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:13.359
Um okay.
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:22.000
So when we say uh and and any whoever can answer this, maybe Zach, when we say exploring the relationship, so if I what does that exactly mean?
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:28.799
If I come to a meeting, I I know chem sex, maybe or whatever subsidies is negatively affecting my life.
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:34.559
So what can smart do to help me explore what that what that looks like for me?
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:41.359
So, you know, ambivalence is a huge thing that that you know people in recovery struggle with, especially in early recovery.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:41.680
Yeah.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:48.799
And so at a smart recovery meeting, you have, you know, a big the biggest focus of a smart recovery beyond the tool is the crosstalk.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.039
You know, it's a it's it's the exact opposite of a 12-step meeting in that sense.
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.160
You know, the crosstalk is the focal point of this.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:06.799
And during that crosstalk, you know, you you know, I got sober in CMA, Crystal Mouth Anonymous, you know, there's N A, A, all these other A's, but with smart recovery, it's addiction in general.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.079
So you're getting this, you're having this conversation with a bunch of different people with a bunch of different addictions.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:16.960
We're talking chemical addiction, substance use, behavioral addiction, self-harm.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.519
You know, you name it, if it's maladaptive, you you're you're welcome here, you know.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:34.000
And one of the things that, you know, it comes up often in my group because of where my meeting is in the village, in uh the West Vill West Village of New York, you know, Chemsex comes up in uh a bunch about that that stuff.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.920
And so, you know, in smart recovery, that ambivalence is embraced.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:48.720
You know, we we talk about it, we have the open conversations about this, and we get to hear different perspectives from different people, not just our own echo chamber.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:55.920
And that there's a really big powerful moment for that, you know, and then on top of that, all we use these tools, you know, physical tools.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.200
And, you know, depending on the facilitator, for each facilitator is different.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:05.759
You know, you might I I use flip charts and we use the worksheets that are accessible free on the website, and you don't just need the handbook for that.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:14.960
So we use all these different tools to, you know, explore that ambivalence that we have to come to that answers that the individual wants to come up for themselves.
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:28.880
You know, we're not giving the answers, we're facilitating a meeting where you know your answer comes to yourself through this conversation, through this exploration of who you are, what you're dealing with, and hearing from other people, their perspectives.
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.400
You know, it's not advice giving, it's conversation.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:34.079
Yeah.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:52.720
So so crosstalk, it's so if I how do you then I guess when you're facilitating a meeting, if I if I'm there for chemsex, there's a lot of topics that are taboo that I'm probably gonna want to talk about.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:59.440
What how do you ensure that the environment is safe if you have a mixture of different people and different yeah?
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:00.960
Can I take that one?
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:05.039
Uh uh first of all, I don't love the word safe space.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.680
We say supportive space most of the time because control what Dallas is gonna share at the meeting.
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.519
Dallas might say the hell out of everybody.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:15.680
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.240
Something that's very important to know about Smart Recovery is that our facilitators are trained.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.519
They are not therapists, although some are, or will be soon.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:29.519
Uh, but their role in the Smart Recovery meeting is to guide the conversation and keep us on track.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:29.839
Okay.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.319
So they are trained that at every meeting, it's advised to read the meeting opening.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:39.839
And that meeting opening says, you know, we talk about the recent past and the near future.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:49.440
Um, and when someone says something taboo, which really nothing is taboo as smart, but you might get a little redirect.
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.759
So, Dallas, if you said, you know, I well, I listened to your podcast yesterday.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.680
Uh, I I I used the app.
00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:58.000
I well, I put I didn't put the phone in the other room.
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.160
It was in my in my bedroom, and I I went on Snapchat and I had a laugh.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:03.839
Totally fine.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:10.400
If you were to say, uh, you know, I'm I'm gonna be you we talk graphic on this podcast, right?
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:11.200
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:11.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:17.119
So you came over and shot the shirt off on mass and and it set me off on a three-day vendor.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:22.640
We're gonna say, Oh, be careful with your language, because what you say might trigger other CamSec folks in the room, right?
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:23.440
Okay, yeah, yeah.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:34.640
The same way I wouldn't let someone or would I would interrupt someone saying, Um, you know, I was at a friend's house and there was a bottle of vodka in the freezer and it was dripping with conversation, and I just wanted to take it.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:35.759
I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.440
So you wanted to drink yesterday, right?
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:37.839
Right, right.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.319
But we just want to make it a supportive space as safe as we can.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:41.119
Supportive space.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:42.000
Free trigger.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.480
It's not to say, you know, you can't do it.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:51.039
Um it's just just that we're we're mindful of everybody in the room and what they might be working on.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.920
Uh and so we just try to keep it safe that way.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:55.039
And the training helps.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:10.319
The training helps the facilitator to learn how to generally redirect and and that's what we're so I think that's a huge point here is that you have a trained facilitator at the meetings, not just any old Joe, right, exactly.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:14.160
Old old timer or whatever at the meeting, right?
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:14.799
Yeah.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.599
And even with that, every meeting's gonna have, Zach said this, it's gonna have its own vibe, its own feel.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:20.000
Sure.
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:25.839
There might even be some facilitators out there who haven't yet had the new training, and they might mention Abstinence as the thing.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.440
That that's we're working on that.
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.000
We've got 1800 facilitators to train.
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:37.759
But uh for the most part, um, they're gonna, I forget what I was gonna say, but uh oh, that's what we say.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:42.960
Like in the opening, we say, you know, smart recovery isn't for everyone.
00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:49.200
But if this meeting didn't resonate with you tonight or today, we suggest trying five meetings before you make up your mind.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:51.359
Because every meeting's different.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.920
Like, yeah, uh, you know, we acknowledge that and we say it out loud.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:57.680
Every facilitator is different.
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:03.200
You know, I know people who've gone to one meeting and said that was bullshit, right?
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:04.559
They just hit it on a bad night.
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.440
So we encourage people to try five meetings, five different meetings.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:13.759
Even this meeting, my Wednesday night meeting, one week can be a laugh riot, the next week can be Dullesville because people don't have LGBTQ.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:16.400
So that's that's a big deal for us.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:17.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:18.400
I love that.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:19.200
I love it.
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.799
Um, and you have specific LGBTQ meetings too.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:23.680
We do.
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:25.279
Yeah, because you said you ran one.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:25.519
Yeah.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.839
I do run one in Duran, and it's a great little group.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.400
I love, I love my Wednesday night group.
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.079
Uh it's our Wednesday night group.
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:33.279
I should watch all my language.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:39.920
Uh and uh, you know, I have folks um who are working through chemsex.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:49.839
Um uh n not a regular right now, but people been in and um in my group we put chemsex right in the introduction, right?
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:55.039
Like whatever your addiction is, chemsex, opioid alcohol.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:56.160
You're welcome here.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:57.599
Yeah, yeah, love it.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.119
Because they put it in, I'd like all LGBTQ meetings to do that.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.279
Uh many of them are.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:04.720
Yeah.
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:09.039
So you mentioned that on the website a handbook, it's encouraged.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:15.599
Uh and again, it we have to look at the language, it's in encouraged but not required, right?
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.279
Right, correct, correct.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:22.319
All the all the all the worksheets, all the handouts that we have are available free on the website.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.160
The tools, all of them are available.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:24.720
Okay.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:31.920
And if if I know in my meeting, it's in person, if I'm gonna have uh a tool tonight, I plan to presenting a tool.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.799
I don't have copies printed out for the folks who don't have a book.
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:41.039
Um also some some facilitators will, you know, we take collection at the end of the meeting.
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.720
I'll use some of that money to buy books so we can give them the people who can support them.
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.799
The book was helpful to me, but that doesn't mean it's gonna be helpful to everyone.
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:49.440
Right.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:54.480
So you allow people to use whatever literature they that works for them.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:54.880
Yeah.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:55.839
I would, yes, right.
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:56.400
Okay.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:59.119
Yeah, there is no literature requirement for this.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:01.039
We have our own literature that we use.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.279
You know, I have Am I Addicted Up here?
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.720
I have the facilitator handbook, I have the handbook, you know.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.920
I also we also have friends and family um as well.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.920
So there's a bunch of different literature, but none of it is required at all.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:14.960
Okay, yeah.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:24.319
And I noticed there's a on the website it there's also a no religious content is so how do you yeah, what is that about?
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:28.160
You are just leave out a higher power altogether.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:32.000
No, if your higher power works for you, bring it to the smart meeting.
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:32.880
That's awesome.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:40.400
But we're a secular organization, so there's nothing baked into our uh program that is um that is religious.
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:47.519
There's certainly some meditation practices and stuff like that, but a lot of people have faith as part of their toolkit, and that's great.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.920
Um, you can talk about it at the meeting, that's great, but we don't tell other people what to do.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:02.240
So yeah, it's a secular program, um, and it's there's nothing religious about the actual four points, which we we could talk briefly about the four points or something.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:03.200
Yeah, let's do that.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.000
Let's do that.
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.119
I I hope cats are allowed on your podcast.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.480
Not a lot of pussy on the podcast.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:13.839
And dogs, yeah.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:15.759
Well, gizmo.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:16.079
Yeah.
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:17.359
Gizmo, yeah.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.519
Uh so do you want to talk about the four points, Zach?
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:22.079
Or do you think that's a good one?
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:22.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:29.200
So so um the four points, you know, we we we it's our that's the this is the basis of smart recovery.
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:34.559
You know, there's it starts with uh maintaining uh building and maintaining motivation.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.519
Um oh gosh, put on the spot.
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:45.599
Coping with their coping with their jes and cravings, managing thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and then building a balanced life.
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:51.039
And these all our tools are based on those, you know, in the handbook, the chapters are based around that.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:54.960
And so these are the foundations of the of smart recovery.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.279
This is like the pillars that we're built upon.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:08.880
And so these are the things that we talk about in every single meeting, you know, and it comes up indirectly, you know, we don't have to intentionally talk about it, but it is these are staples of recovery.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:10.880
We've just worded it, you know.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:22.319
We they might call it something different in a different program and a different rehab and stuff like that, but this is how we word it, and this is pretty much common belief throughout the whole recovery community, you know.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.400
So these are these are our pillars.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:25.759
Okay, great.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.319
So when you say maintaining motivation, can you explain that a little bit?
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:31.680
Whoever wants to answer.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.359
Yeah, so so with with so it's building and maintaining motivation.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.799
So motivation is hard.
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.720
You have motivation when you have it, and you don't have it when you don't have it.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:33:00.000
You know, you never know when it's gonna hit or what so we want to build, we want to give you the tools, we want to provide the tools, we want to teach the tools that will help you identify that motivation, why you have this motivation, what you need this motivation for, and not just that, because it's great to see that, you know.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.960
Oh, I have motivation right now, but how are you gonna maintain it?
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:26.079
You know, so so we we we use tools to help you not just identify your motivation to stay to to re to recovery, but you know, we also want you to have the tools useful that will help you maintain that throughout your recovery journey because motivation fluctuates, you know, one day, one day it'll be uh up here, and then 20 minutes later it's gonna be all the way down here.
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:27.599
You know, you never know when it's gonna hit.
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:29.039
It's it's a it's a dopamine.
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.000
That the the dopamine, you know, they say that's the hapne molecule.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.160
No, it's not, it's the motivation molecule.
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:43.440
And so, you know, we try to teach these lessons, these skills to be able to help just maintain that throughout your whole recovery journey.
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:47.039
What are you gonna say, Gus?
00:33:47.599 --> 00:34:04.640
I was gonna say, like for me personally, just what this might look like for a participant is when I went to my first Mart meeting, um the the facilitator, hey Mo, if you're if you're watching, uh he said, you know, well Gus, why do you why do you drink?
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:06.559
And I said, at the time it was drinking.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.119
I said, because I'm an alcoholic, I that's what we do.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.400
She's like, no, guess.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:11.679
What do you love about it?
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.280
And I'm like, What?
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.800
And she's like, I'm like, I love that it helps me deal with my feelings.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:18.639
I love that it helps me escape.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.079
I love that it loosens me up.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:24.559
And she's like, Yeah, you wouldn't be doing it if it didn't give you some benefits, right?
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:24.880
Right.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:37.920
So she was she was bringing up a cost-benefit analysis, which Smart did not invent, but that we we put in our handbook as a helpful tool to help people understand, all right, well, guess what's it costing you?
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.119
Well, my husband wants to kick me out, my job just is about to hire fire me, you know, all of that.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:44.800
So we weigh the cost benefits.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:50.239
So, but no one had ever said to me, not my therapist, not not my husband.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.320
Like they asked why you drank in a mean way.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:53.599
No one said, What do you love about it?
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.400
What are the benefits you wouldn't be doing if it wasn't bringing you something?
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:57.840
And the true, true American.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:05.440
I look back, it's like it made me feel sexy, it made me feel popular, it made me feel like I could be friends, I could go into strange places without being afraid.
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:07.679
Those were great things for me at that time.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:09.199
I needed those things at the time.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.559
It served me for a long time until it didn't, right?
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.920
So uh that's that's like what's your why?
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:23.440
And and and we encourage people to like don't just you know, my one of my favorite tools is just defining your values.
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:24.159
It's so simple.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.519
What's most important to you?
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:34.159
And when you we we encourage people to think of five, like, okay, when you choose kind of sex over those five things, those five things lose their importance.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:35.360
That's the most important thing.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:36.719
That's a hard truth.
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:44.239
But next time I feel triggered, if I've got that on my phone under values and I click it, I I literally did this.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:47.599
Oh, right, I value honesty, I value my family.
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:55.119
I it might just be the thing that gives you space to rethink, you know, going on the app or doing the thing.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:56.880
Yeah, I like that.
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:01.039
Yeah, I heard somebody say, like, well, they didn't say meth, but I put meth in there.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.519
Meth wasn't the problem, it was the solution.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.280
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:05.760
Right.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:05.920
Right.
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.400
I mean, sex story is a great example of that, right?
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:12.639
Like, literally, if I don't do this drug, I won't have a place to sleep tonight.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.639
Like, yeah, that's a big motivator.
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.239
Like, that's a benefit.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:18.320
Didn't always work out.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:31.360
It's it's what kept me going for longer than I even wanted to, you know, just because the situation that I found myself at the time, being unhoused, you know, I had to do things I didn't want to do.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:48.159
I didn't want to do it as as you know, as addiction takes over your body and everything, you know, there's times that you don't want to do this still, but I was forced, I felt forced to have to do that in order to, you know, even eat, you know, because it mind you, uh, this was in Florida.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:51.199
The the benefits in Florida don't exist for people.
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:53.360
You know, I got HIV in Florida.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:55.119
There was no resources for me.
00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:02.239
I was lucky enough to have AidApp to cover for the the rehab, to cover for my medications, but that's all they did.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:05.599
They didn't care, they could care less that year on the streets, you know.
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:11.599
So I had to take care of myself, which, you know, I was resourceful enough, but not everybody is.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:12.320
That's right.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:12.880
You know?
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:13.679
That's right.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:14.400
Yeah.
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:24.480
Yeah, I have I could tell, you know, we can get into the stories, but yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things I did to have a place to stay, some food that I'm not real proud of, you know.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:34.880
Um, but yeah, going back to motivation to building and maintaining motivation, and I I think it it really ties into something that we've talked about here, and that's your why.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:41.360
You know, the thing is uh a lot of people I think are sitting in meetings and they're in recovery because they think they have to.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:56.000
Like, you know, this is just what I have to do, which to me isn't a strong enough, heartfelt why to drive and fuel them through all, through the urges, through the cravings, through the long term.
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:05.440
You know, if you're just quitting because, well, logically, I'm not supposed to do meth, or I'm gonna lose my job, or I'm gonna lose my partner, I don't think that that's strong enough.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:10.239
If it's like this is like if it's here, like this is not my identity anymore.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:15.760
And like you said, Gus, like here are my values, and this is what I believe in, this is what I'm gonna stick to.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.960
Doing meth goes away because it does it goes against who I am as an individual.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.719
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:30.400
And that is just you have me thinking about my own, my own, my own relationship with chem chemsex.
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:36.480
Uh it it it took me like I did have psychosis.
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.519
I did have I did stay with people because I couldn't go home.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:40.400
I was locked out of my house.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:41.199
Well, what am I gonna do?
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:43.760
Just just get on the phone line and find somewhere to go.
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:47.599
Um uh I can remember some very dark things.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:39:01.920
And um those things are what I like to call it, it's not really in our training, but it a lot of us talk about it, external motivations, those will get you in the door, those will get you your first few days, those will get you to think about your goals.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:09.599
But the external motivations, sleeping full stop, sleeping is a benefit of not using back.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.679
Uh you know, I lost a shit ton of weight.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:20.239
Um, I'm gained, you know, I've gained it back, but uh at first it was a benefit, then it was a cost because people at work were like, Are you sick?
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:20.559
Right?
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:21.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:33.599
So uh the DUIs, all of that, external motivators, sleeping, feeling trusted, uh, being able to look in the mirror, you know, being able to talk to my niece anytime I want because I'm not high.
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.400
Those are the things that will keep me motivated.
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:42.239
So building motivation and maintaining motivation, yeah, it's when those internal motivators kick in.
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:48.800
And yeah, you can think about what they might be before they actually mean that to you and watch for them, right?
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:52.320
So it's it's it's really it's to me, it was really interesting.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:59.360
Like, like Zach said, uh, I I somehow I didn't understand the word ambivalence until I got into smart recovery.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:00.639
Thanks.
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.119
Like I want to stop and I don't want to stop.
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:05.119
Both of those things can be true at the same time.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:06.960
It's not an all-or-nothing game.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.840
This is not an all or nothing journey for most people.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:10.320
That's right.
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:11.199
That's jealous.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:18.800
When I listen to your podcast, my heart swells because you're you're you're we're so aligned with uh harm reduction.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.880
Try reducing, see if it works for you.
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:21.440
It could.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:23.440
There's research that it might work.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.480
Uh if it doesn't, be honest about it.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:28.000
We'll we'll explore that, right?
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:33.920
You talk about um you just you just are so in line with smart recovery, it's amazing it took us this long.
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:44.800
Because I know I I just I just every time I look your your thing, I was like listening yesterday to the one about the uh excuse versus reason.
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:45.360
Oh yeah.
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:48.000
Right, so smart recovery, but we don't have a tool on it.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:54.000
I'm like, oh Dallas, maybe you'll let me adapt this for a tool for smart recovery because it was so ha.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:55.199
Yeah.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:01.840
It's like, and if if you know what I might add to that is like it's okay if you're still making excuses, don't give up.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:09.039
But think about that lapse, think about what caused it, think about the situation, and and don't just blame yourself for it.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:10.800
Like, oh but that's who I am.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:12.719
I'm a I'm a tweaker, I'm this, I'm that.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:12.960
Yep.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.719
But like, oh, I made a mistake and I can do better next time.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:21.519
And only beautiful if you haven't heard it, people go listen to it.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:26.320
Uh and I love that you give study guides, like you're just so smart aligned.
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:27.440
It's beautiful.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:27.920
Yeah.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:37.440
See, what's what's I was just gonna say, what's what's what's really cool though, is so many people in recovery are smart aligned, they just don't realize it.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:38.480
Yeah.
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.119
Yeah.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.519
You know, like like we tabled, you know, and in smart recovery NYC.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:47.920
I have five in-person meetings for almost nine million people.
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:57.360
Wow, you know, in the state of New In this city of New York City, all five boroughs, you know, and so we tabled at Brooklyn Pride this year for the first time.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:03.119
Most people don't know about smart recovery, even in the the the country's largest city, you know.
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.920
So, but they they're already practicing it.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:20.480
You know, they're already practicing these things if they're in recovery, you know, if you're doing therapy and stuff like that, that straight up from therapy, it's C B T, R E B T, motivational interviewing, you know, this is the foundations on top of the four points, you know.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.840
Right, right.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:22.960
That's right.
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:41.280
I really think, you know, I really think if you're listening, like what a what a release for you and what a credentialed place to be as well to come to this program and to to stop being told what you can and can't do without a question, right?
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:46.480
And so you're you're talking about what I think is so important is experiential learning.
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:54.159
So you know, I have a I have a I have a um another carousel coming out that's about poppers, you know.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:57.280
It's like I I s I sniffed poppers, did I relapse?
00:42:57.519 --> 00:42:57.679
Right.
00:42:58.239 --> 00:42:59.920
And that's not the question.
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.920
The question is, are poppers problematic for me or are they not?
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:04.559
Right.
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:04.960
Right.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:06.079
That's the question.
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:06.960
So true.
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.559
Yeah, but we have but we have people making up these rules.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.559
You may not do poppers, or you have to start your days over.
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:15.199
Yeah.
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:16.000
Exactly.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:25.599
Not all being told what to do, you know, and and you know, I'm a big p believer of like self-empowerment, and that's a huge part of smart recovery.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:33.599
And so, you know, having that, you know, being told to do something is is great for some people, but not most people.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.320
Most people need to find that power within themselves.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:36.880
That's right.
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:38.480
And that's part of smart recovery.
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:47.840
All those points, the the four points, are meant to build up that self empowerment ability for them to be able to make these decisions on their own for themselves and for their own good.
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:48.960
Great.
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.960
I think about the like what I heard when I first got sober when I was a kid.
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.159
It was like you can't think yourself out of this.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:58.880
You have to you have to whatever it was.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:00.719
I don't remember uh Other option.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:03.760
But I but I can say you can think yourself out of this.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:04.960
Like that's what we do at Smart.
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:07.360
We change our thinking and it changes our lives.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:11.760
And so, you know, we don't maybe we could do a series where we talk about each point.
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:24.239
But the biggest thing for me, where my life changed through Smart Recovery, is learning how to challenge my unhelpful thoughts, which again is classic cognitive behavioral therapy, but something I didn't learn and I didn't have that skill.
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.159
So with athletes, I can I get that space between my trigger and my use.
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.440
And in that space, I can challenge my unhelpful thought.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.440
I can think about what to do instead.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:36.639
I can remember that.
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:38.800
Zach said I could text him anytime.
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:46.880
And you know, the longer I can make that wedge between my thought and my use, the better the odds are that I'm gonna be okay.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.400
So that's where that's where it all, you know, all the they're not steps, it's not a staircase.
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:57.360
It's it's it's just a menu of things that you can try at different times.
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.280
They do, I don't know if you've talked about the stages of change on your podcast before.
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:02.719
I haven't actually.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.119
Okay, but it's I I won't get into it now.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:06.159
It's it's a good idea.
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:12.480
If I'm in the action stage, if I'm thinking about changing, that's a really important time.
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.599
And I want to say this loud, like I want to say this loud and clear.
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:26.639
Like when you're in that moment and you're looking for change, maybe your best bet is to talk to Dallas and you guys get along great, and you become someone who supports you, and that works for you.
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:27.119
That's great.
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:32.000
Or maybe you go to a CMA meeting and you click and you make friends for the first time, and it works for you.
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:32.639
Awesome.
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:40.159
Whatever works for you, because the research strongly suggests that there's no one program that's better than the other.
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:43.360
It's yeah, it's generally about the same success rate.
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:47.840
But what matters is you picked it, you like it, and you engage with it.
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:52.800
Yeah, so all those people who are like, I tried 12-step and it just didn't work for me, they were right.
00:45:52.880 --> 00:46:08.239
They're not in denial, they're not assholes, they're just it didn't work for them because it's not their so find the thing that works for you, check it all out, yeah, you know, check out a smart meeting, talk to Dallas, go to Zach's meetings, but but make it your choice.
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:09.679
And that's what smart is all about.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:15.119
On our website, you know, here's other pathways, here's life ring, here's those recovery, here's darn recovery.
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:16.800
Try them all out.
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:18.880
Soapbox.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:25.440
No, but they're but people are brow beaten with it works if you work it, meaning you're the problem.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:26.719
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:27.840
It makes me so mad.
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.519
That that makes me very mad.
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:39.360
I had a young woman who came to the meeting and she was walked out of a bar after ordering a drink, sitting down at the bar, and uh the she turned around and walked out.
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:46.239
And she came to our meeting because when she told her sponsor that story, her sponsor said, Your higher power really loves you.
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:48.559
And I said, Fuck your sponsor.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:49.039
Sorry.
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:51.840
I usually don't talk shit about A, but I'm like, fuck your sponsor.
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:53.519
You did that, you made that trip.
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:58.400
Right, you got off that par stool, and you walked out the door and you came to Smart Recovery meeting.
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:01.119
So give yourself some credit, you know?
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.039
Yeah, it's right.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:03.760
That's right.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.719
So many people come to Smart Recovery and find their power.
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.119
Yes, yeah, and find their power, their higher power.
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:09.360
Right.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:11.360
Someone said, How long have you been sober?
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:14.800
Yeah, guys, how long have you been sober?
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:19.360
Well, it'll be it'll be three months, gus willing, tomorrow, right?
00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:21.679
But it's that's empowering to me.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.400
I love that.
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.559
Only I can do only I can list this up on the only one.
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:27.199
Yeah.
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:29.840
And I do have a that's right.
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:30.320
Yeah.
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.079
I I have a whole video called You You Are Your Higher Power.
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:34.400
Yeah.
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:41.840
Because people are told anything can be your higher power, even this were even this remote, except you.
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:42.960
Except yourself.
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:44.480
Right.
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:50.239
So but you know, here's the thing, it's like when when you relapse, it's your fault.
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:53.440
When you meet a milestone of recovery, it's higher power's fault.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.880
It higher power gets the credit.
00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:55.119
Right.
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:55.599
Right, yeah.
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:56.079
Right.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.360
And it's like I mean it's uh acceptance speech.
00:47:59.519 --> 00:47:59.679
Right.
00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:00.800
I'd like to thank God.
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.440
I'm like, I I start with thinking myself.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:03.760
Yeah.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:07.840
I remind myself, I like I did so much work to get where I am today.
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.239
That's right.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.639
Three years and eight months after getting sober.
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.480
I've done so much work to get here.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:16.000
I went through I get I used to be fat my whole life.
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:21.199
I lost all of it because of meth, gained it all back in six months after I got sober plus five pounds.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:28.079
The work I've done to not have that again has been so much work, and it's been such a big part of my recovery journey.
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:29.519
But I did that work.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:30.000
Yeah.
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:30.480
Yeah.
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:31.280
You did it.
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:32.000
That's right.
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:32.400
Yeah.
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:33.119
Yay.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:34.239
Yay.
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:35.840
I love it.
00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:36.800
Oh, I love this.
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:38.000
We could talk for hours, I think.
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:44.559
Um so the the other the other pillars, the one is uh coping with urges and cravings.
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:56.400
So I was going to ask about that in terms of chemsex urges and cravings are a bit different, but do you do you do you have like a sponsor type program in Smart at all?
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:00.000
Or do you have anyone you kind of mentor or anything like that?
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:02.719
Zach, you take this one first.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:04.159
So so we don't.
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:12.880
Um so that that that isn't something that we don't, you know, like I said, you know, with with uh in 12 step that you have a sponsor, which usually the requirement is a year of sobriety.
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.199
You know, and that's uh that's really it.
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:24.800
You know, here we have facilitators, and uh right now it would when I did facilitator training, it was 30 hours of training, and now it's 15 hours if I remember correctly, which is great.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:25.920
Five or six five.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:34.079
Right, which is makes it far more accessible, you know, to people that didn't want to do 30 hours of it, which was a big reason why people didn't do that, you know.
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:37.519
But so we don't have the sponsors, we don't have a buddy system.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:49.840
And I mean, I'm not talking smack about smart recovery at all, but I feel like that is something that's missing because we don't, you know, what's really great that I got sober in the 12-step community is that exact word community.
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:54.960
Yeah, and that's that's something that's actually missing within the smart recovery world, you know.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:01.599
And I thought was it was just you know smart recovery NYC because in New York City, you don't even know your neighbors, you know.
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:06.400
You may live with, you know, eight million people, but you don't know anybody usually.
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:11.199
And so, but I'm learning it's actually a bigger problem within smart recovery.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:17.360
And so, you know, what we're doing right, what we're doing in New York City right now is trying to bring in some of that stuff.
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:25.840
We just had this really big barbecue, smart recovery NYC big appreciation and uh volunteer appreciation barbecue last weekend.
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:34.320
You know, 50 people showed up, which is more than people, you know, our meetings aren't a CMA meeting, aren't an NA meeting with you know 40, 60.
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:37.760
There's a CMA meeting on Fridays in Midtown that's a hundred people.
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:39.519
That's not a smart recovery meeting.
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:47.199
You know, last my meeting on Tuesday, biggest meeting I've had, 15 people, you know, because you can't it's really hard to manage that.
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:51.920
It's really hard to do that with crosstalk stuff with a hundred people, it's not possible.
00:50:52.480 --> 00:51:02.239
Yeah, and so so you know, one thing that I I'm working on is building that community of it, you know, making those friendships, building those connections between each other.
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:08.079
We've created a WhatsApp group, you know, we're we're we're we're we're we're doing it, you know, and I'm not the only one.
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:16.719
These things are actually being, you know, I learned how to do some of this stuff from the conference in April in Orlando, you know, so so for for Smart Recovery.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:23.599
So it's there there's there's no structure for that, but it's it's something that is missing right now, you know.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:26.880
Yeah, and and I agree with I agree with Zach.
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:31.840
This is this is like uh this is an issue because it affects meeting growth.
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:38.639
Um it affects because what's happening in Dallas is people are coming and they're getting better.
00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:42.639
They actually get better and then they're like, I don't need the meeting anymore.
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:48.079
And do we don't do a good enough job at Smart Recovery, and we're working on it.
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:49.840
But Zach is 100% right.
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:51.039
We don't do a good enough job.
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.679
That that fellowship in AA is so great.
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:54.639
I mean, I love it.
00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:57.679
I I've been in AA, I love the fellowship, I love it.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:11.920
Uh, if I could only do the fellowship, uh but smart, it's like our we need to do a better job of we don't have we don't have a buddy system, but I have always made my best friends in smart recovery.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:22.159
And I remember, I don't know if there's any Tales of the City fans in the house, but uh Mona used to say, I don't need a partner, I just need five good friends.
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:27.199
And I I I co-opted that to say, I don't need a sponsor, I just need five good friends.
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:36.159
And we take self-empowerment very seriously, and yet in my meeting, Zach, I changed the opening where we say we don't have a sponsorship or buddy system.
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:42.480
But the next thing says, that said, many people in this group find connection that's meaningful and helps them in their journey.
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:45.199
So we encourage you to connect with each other outside the group.
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:49.840
They created a signal group, it's very active, it's completely participant driven.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.800
I don't, I I keep around it, but I try to stay out of it.
00:52:53.039 --> 00:53:13.920
Um so we're looking at ways to do this, and um that that that tradition of service in AA was probably one of their smartest moves because it does, and I'm saying that as a positive, like it's it keeps you in it if you want to, and it gives you things to do, and you want to start your own meeting, and you want to go to the barbecues, you want to go to the roundups, you want to, you know.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:15.440
I I love that.
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:18.159
As a young person in AA, I loved all that stuff.
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:18.559
Yeah.
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:19.679
So that's right.
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:21.519
We have to we have to give better at that.
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:23.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:26.480
Well, you you you will you will get there, I am.
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:28.960
I'm confident we will.
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:40.960
Yeah, I mean, I that's the thing about with with my clients, I'll tell them, like, look, the goal is for you to just be living a life like a quote unquote normie, right?
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:46.320
Like to go on vacation, to stay in a hotel and not be scared that you're gonna fucking relapse.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:54.639
Right, you know, and that your chemsex experience informs who you are, but it isn't at the forefront anymore.
00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:58.559
You know, you you trust yourself in a way that you're just living your life.
00:53:58.800 --> 00:53:59.039
Right.
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.079
You don't have to be at a meeting for the rest of your life.
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:04.559
Unless you and again, I think it is the fellowship.
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:05.519
Unless you want to.
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:05.760
Yeah.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:06.159
Right.
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:18.800
I think it is the fellowship that you keep going, you know, because it is hard, I'm sure, in in especially in New York City, to find if you're a gay man and you're newly sober, to find other sober gay men, it probably it has to be a challenge.
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.360
And that's the one place you could, you know, you will find that.
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:33.039
So well, see, I will say, you know, like I said, that that CMA meeting on on Friday nights in Midtown, Times Square area, hundred, hundred gay men, you know, a few trans people and stuff like that.
00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:33.280
Yeah.
00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:35.360
But you know, that's where the community is.
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:45.039
That there's a reason why there's they're not there just for the meeting, they're there for the fellowship, they're there for the food, they're there for the meeting after the meeting, you know, and and that's great.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:55.039
And I'm so grateful that I was able to get sober through that community so I can bring what I learned from that side of it into Smart Recovery.
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.400
Because the NYCMA crew is huge.
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:02.880
They do every week they have a different, they go to movies, they're going, they're doing so much.
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:05.840
They're going to Jacob Reese Beach, the People's Queer Beach here.
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.039
You know, they're doing so much stuff, you know.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:17.360
But at the same time, you know, that this is probably, I feel like, where part of the disconnection is, you know, it comes down to money a lot of the times.
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:27.760
And Smart Recovery doesn't get that money in from our participants like the 12-step community does, you know, and and so we can't do as much, you know.
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:44.480
CMA gets a bunch of money in because that's how they're trained to do, you know, and and so so we're you know, that that's some one of our pitfalls there that we don't have the money to be able to do these things, but we're finding a ways to do it still, because we're still resourceful.
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:46.880
We we we we we're resourceful people, yeah.
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:48.159
Love it, yeah.
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:49.679
Yeah, love it.
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:50.880
It's it's all true.
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:52.239
And and we're working on it.
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.360
And and your listeners can be a part of it if they want to be.
00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:57.199
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:01.599
Uh can I say one last thing, Dallas, that I love about you?
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:10.000
Um your your conversation about instead of like the you you had that one standalone podcast, The Shame of Zero, I think you called it.
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:11.920
Uh day one or something.
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:14.639
Umart is right on board with you on that.
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:26.239
Like uh I have I I have this analogy that I learned in my first treatment, which is um like if you have a you know I I suffered from that like reset button.
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:26.800
I hate that.
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:28.239
Yeah, uh it didn't work for me.
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:31.360
Now when I had a lot of days, it worked great, but getting there was really hard.
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:41.599
So we tell at my meeting, we tell people when they've had a lapse, like if you if you put a marble in a fishbowl uh every day, you don't use, right?
00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:46.639
You uh and you put it in, you put it in, you put it in, you'll see the fishbowl filling up.
00:56:46.719 --> 00:57:00.159
And then if you relapse, you absolutely do not pour out the fishbowl because you don't unlearn what you learned at the meetings, you don't lose all the friends you made in your sobriety, you don't you learn so much, you don't unlearn that stuff.
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:09.679
Maybe you don't put a uh you know, you don't put a marble in that fishbowl that day, but you'll put one in tomorrow and it will continue to grow.
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:14.800
And I feel like that is very much like you're like, forget that you got high yesterday.
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:17.679
How how many times have you chemsex like in the last hundred days?
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:18.559
Three?
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:20.159
Holy shit, that's amazing.
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:20.480
Right.
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:24.719
And I I say the same thing to my my participants, like like let me get this straight.
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:31.920
You were drink, you were drinking, you were doing drugs, you were smoking every day, and now you've smoked twice this month, right?
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:33.599
That's pretty good.
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:35.440
That's the kind of woman we're celebrating.
00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:40.400
Yeah, and so I love that's another way we're relying very closely on that.
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:46.239
Yeah, I mean, I I think I I you know it's so there's uh I don't know if you watch Dr.
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:50.800
Nicole Labor, she's on um she's on Instagram and all the social media.
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:54.960
Um she's a doctor, she's an addiction, she's in recovery, an addiction doctor.
00:57:55.039 --> 00:57:59.280
Anyway, she talks about that the brain does like streaks.
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:07.679
Like you know, streaks of days and all that kind of stuff, and it is motivating, but the thing is is just how that those streaks are used, just like you're saying.
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:14.960
I mean, you know, you just you can't lose time unless you have access to some type of time machine.
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:18.320
You know, is that you can't lose time.
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:22.639
I've just it it I just see all over social media.
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:34.159
Like I had two years and I used last month, and now I'm at 30 days, and you know, the just the sorrow and the shame and the just the demoralization in two years you've used one time.
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:34.800
Right.
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:38.320
That's a miracle, especially when you're talking about crystal meth.
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:39.679
Yeah, hell yeah.
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:45.440
Right, because so much with the crystal meth doesn't just come the crystal meth, comes the countersex of it all.
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:45.679
Right.
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:47.039
Like the chaos addiction.
00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:53.360
You know, my biggest addiction that I missed afterwards, because I got I became celibate before I quit the meth.
00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:57.119
That the sex was so traumatic at the end that I'd stop that first.
00:58:57.360 --> 00:59:00.400
You know, if it wasn't me stopping the sex, I probably would never stop the meth.
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:05.440
But you know, the thing that I missed the most, the void that was not able to be filled, was the chaos.
00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:09.519
You know, being being unhoused, you never know what's gonna happen.
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:11.199
And that was exciting.
00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:25.519
You know, and so so that that that really finding that void to fill, you know, the free time of it all with with with the chemsex equation of this all that that void of the chaos is is something that we have to fill too.
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:25.920
Yeah.
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:39.599
Yeah, but but really quick about this analogy stuff, you know, about the you know, and in New York City, we like to make an analogy about, you know, you're you're on your recovery journey, you're driving from New York City to LA, and as you're driving, you break down in Kansas City, your car.
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.239
You don't get back in your car and drive all the way back to New York City to repair that your car.
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:46.960
You fix it there and keep your roof keep going.
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:57.679
Yeah, you know, so so with that analogy, you know, everything that you've learned in those years, those days, those months, whatever it is, to get to that point when you had your laps is still there.
00:59:57.920 --> 00:59:59.039
It's not gone.
00:59:59.119 --> 00:59:59.199
Right.
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:02.559
It's still right here where it has been at the whole time.
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:04.880
So don't you don't need to start over.
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:08.880
That the process of starting over is not that, you know.
01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:16.559
It's this this day count stuff, it it as great as it is for some people, it's also detrimental for many more.
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:20.159
Yes, it is, especially because the shame cycle.
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:21.599
Yeah, I agree.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:26.159
Yeah, especially for gay men who are already already covered in shame.
01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:26.639
Yep.
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:27.280
Right.
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:27.599
Right.
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:31.199
The Velvet Rage dialogues, I created an entire group based off the Velvet Rage.
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:33.119
So so I know, yeah, exactly.
01:00:33.199 --> 01:00:35.599
That the shame, the guilt, it's it's horrible.
01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:36.880
Yeah, yes.
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:44.719
And you know, at smart meetings, there's another benefit to not shaming people when they relapse.
01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:50.719
If if Zach relapsed and comes in and talks about it, I learn from Zach.
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:55.679
I like his story can help me avoid whatever happened to him.
01:00:55.760 --> 01:01:02.400
And maybe I was through that and I can share what I did, and he can say, Oh, maybe I'll try that next time, right?
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:07.039
Like it's it's it's just uh it to me, it's just makes sense.
01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:12.000
That just when I got to smart codes, I'm like, this makes sense, this is how people live.
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:24.079
And uh I I love that it's you know that that no sponsor thing, that's all rooted in this like super belief that you are you are the one on your journey, self-empowered.
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:24.719
Right, yeah.
01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:25.840
You're your own sponsor.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:26.320
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:27.199
I've different.
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:28.719
Right.
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.320
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with having an accountability buddy, right?
01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:33.679
Right, everybody buddy.
01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:41.119
They're they're that's what they call each other accountability buddy, and they they are they are always helping each other out, which is great.
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:41.840
Yeah.
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:46.719
And Gus, you had mentioned that you have you're gonna have a special offer for our listeners.
01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:57.760
I am so uh as we've been talking about Smart Recovery, we do have training facilitators, and um the training has just about everything you need to know about Smart.
01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:05.920
Um, and I would love if anyone who's listening to this would like to take the training, we're gonna have a code for free.
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:09.360
No credit card needed, they'll they will just have to create an account.
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:14.400
Um but it there's no pressure, there's no expectation that you're gonna start a meeting.
01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:22.800
I just want them to know about this option and be able to talk to their friends, talk to your therapist, talk to your doctors about smart recovery.
01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:24.239
So, yeah, take the training.
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:25.760
If you like it, great.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:32.800
Um, you know, if down the road you think, hey, you know, I could start one of these smart recovery meetings, that wasn't so bad.
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:33.840
We would love it.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:40.079
Because, like I said, preparing for this podcast, I was shocked because I don't manage the meeting side of things.
01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:41.039
It's mostly training.
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:45.360
There's only 30 something LGBTQ meetings, and about half of them are online.
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:55.840
Um, I'm gonna be it uh in Charlotte tomorrow, um, handing out codes for folks there because that's such a big city, no LGBTQ meetings.
01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:58.480
There are smart meetings in Charlotte, but no LGBTQ.
01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:11.360
And you can go to any meeting, but you're gonna frankly, like if you talk about chemsex at a meeting, you know, you might have to be in that uncomfortable position to to educate the group, and that's not fair.
01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:14.639
So I'm doing my part to make sure everyone knows what chemsex is.
01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:15.760
Zach's is doing his part.
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.800
Uh, he did a presentation for us, which we'll share with you guys too.
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:27.280
Um but yeah, it'll be on the on the show note, and and uh I would love it if they if they take it and want to give me feedback.
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:42.400
Um Zach mentioned the it took me 50 hours to go through the training, and uh I don't think our founders will ever listen to this podcast, but it was one of those videos of meetings full of white guys, older white guys.
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:44.880
Um it was painful that training.
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:49.599
Yeah, and and and it said one day I want to fix that training, and lo and behold, the miracle of recovery.
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:50.400
And there you did.
01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:50.800
And you can't.
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:56.480
So if you take that thing, you're gonna see brown people, you're gonna see gay people, you're gonna see trans people, you're gonna see Muslim people.
01:03:56.639 --> 01:04:01.119
Uh so I would love to hear their feedback on that because this will be my last thing, Dallas.
01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:05.440
Uh smart evolves with the data.
01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:08.400
And the evidence-based, right?
01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:09.920
Evidence-based.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:16.000
And like I said, we were for a long time abstinence-based, and we were abstinence informed.
01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:20.960
Now we're harm reduction and uh make your own goal, meet people where they are.
01:04:21.199 --> 01:04:33.440
Because the evidence, as you point out often on the show, is saying that works and it works well, and it lowers the barrier for people to try their first meeting, and recovery is contagious.
01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:41.519
Like when people come to Smart, you know, some people are like, oh no, if I have people with different goals, everyone will start doing chemsex once a week.
01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:50.400
And I'm like, dude, if anything, the people who are doing chemsex once a week will see the people who aren't doing chemsex and be like, hmm, that looks interesting.
01:04:50.719 --> 01:05:04.079
So while I approve of someone doing chemsex once a week, if that's their goal and it's right, it's it's manageable, um it's it's not gonna, it's not you just don't catch relapse, you just don't.
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:05.840
I know there's no evidence that that happens.
01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:07.760
And it's kind of new to have people in groups.
01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.599
There's really not a lot of research of what it looks like to have different goals in the same group.
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.039
We're kind of the first.
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:14.719
Uh, but we'll see how it goes.
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:18.800
I think so far, anecdotally, people are loving it.
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:20.000
Yeah, I agree.
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:21.679
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:22.719
Thank you.
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:27.840
Well, we could talk for another hour because we did only we didn't really get through the four pillars.
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.840
I wanted to give it like you said we'd want to, for sure.
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:33.760
We could have a series on that for sure.
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:34.480
I would love it.
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:35.199
I would love it.
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:36.960
Yeah, no, I think so.
01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:39.280
Um, well, thank you, gentlemen, for this.
01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:42.400
It was really interesting for me and exciting.
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:48.480
And I hope that you're listening that you got excited to that this is an alternative for you.
01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:50.880
So many of you are messaging me.
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:55.440
I've tried, I've tried this and I've tried that, and you think that that's your only option.
01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:57.519
And there are so many others.
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:01.519
And this is a this is a place where I think a lot of you would feel comfortable.
01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:11.840
Um, Gus, Zach, did I miss anything today that you wish we'd have gone over the a main uh a main point or something that you wanted to get across today?
01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:26.800
No, I think I mean the the four points were mentioned, so so you know, do you do your own research into the rest of them, you know, because there's building and maintaining uh there's building, maintaining, innovation, coping thirds, managing your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors is the third one.
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:31.679
And build uh uh building uh maintaining balance, you know, in your life.
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:34.079
You know, not so so life balance.
01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:36.239
Yeah, so so look into all that stuff.
01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:37.440
Yeah, lovely.
01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:38.000
Great.
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.920
I would just say, you know, try it out.
01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:47.119
You know, look if you can't look for an LGBTQ meeting, but go to any meeting, check it out if you want to.
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:49.840
The online meetings are really low, low barrier.
01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:55.119
Um I'm thinking if I'm triggered by zoom screens, maybe, maybe see if we can find in person.
01:06:55.280 --> 01:07:05.840
But uh yeah, I just we really want people to know about smart, like like Zach and you both said, it's for many years it's been the best kept secret in recovery so far.
01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:08.480
And uh that's changing, but not fast enough.
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:13.119
And yeah, you know, our goal as an organization is 10,000 meetings by 2026.
01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:14.960
No, 2035.
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:15.440
Okay.
01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:23.360
So, you know, that is what our focus is on just getting more meetings in more towns, more cities.
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:27.360
Um, so if you want to be a part of that, yeah, reach out.
01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:28.000
Please do.
01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:29.599
You can share a meeting.
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:31.360
Start your own meeting, we'll help you.
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:32.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:36.800
Dallas, it's been a pleasure, and your work is so amazing and so great.
01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:39.199
I I I feel like I've known you forever.
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:48.639
Zach, I met Zach for the first time at our conference, and you know, like if you if you've been to like if you've been into ChemSecks or PNP, you kind of see a kindred spirit.
01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:53.280
Like, it's like girl, let's get together.
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:57.440
And uh Mac, I still haven't bought a summer's dress.
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:00.719
Um, you know, we talked about that at the conference.
01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:03.440
I'm like, I want to be free and dress like I feel inside.
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:04.320
And you're like, do it.
01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:06.400
You know, like I need to process a little bit.
01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:08.079
I'm wearing my version of it today.
01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:09.360
Yay, yay, bro.
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:11.039
I love that.
01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:13.360
Great work.
01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:18.000
You just do such important work, and and I've learned so much from you, so thank you.
01:08:18.079 --> 01:08:19.119
Um thank you very much.
01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:23.039
I've learned a lot today, and I appreciate you too tremendously.
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:23.680
Awesome.
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:24.880
You're giving hope.
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:28.159
You're giving hope to a lot of people, and I I really appreciate that.
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:28.800
That's sweet.
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:29.119
Thank you.
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:30.079
Yeah, thanks a lot.
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:30.960
Thanks, Dallas.
01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:34.239
Great, and guys, you can join in the conversation if you'd like.
01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:38.319
You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, you can DM one of us.
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:48.880
We're gonna put our contact information in the show notes, or you can just contact me on social media, and I'd love to hear from you what you thought about the episode and what you'd like to see, what you'd like to hear more of.
01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:52.720
And if you want us to take a deeper dive in the smart, we can do we can do part two.
01:08:54.079 --> 01:08:55.199
All right, thank you guys.
01:08:55.359 --> 01:08:56.000
We'll see you next week.
01:08:56.640 --> 01:08:57.199
Thanks, Doc.