Why Representation in Kids’ Books Matters for LGBTQ Teens and Families

Heather Hester
00:01:13
Welcome to Just Breathe.

Michael Tyler
00:01:15
I am so very happy that you are here today.

Michael Tyler
00:01:19
Today we have just a really, really extraordinary guest.

Michael Tyler
00:01:24
He is the co author of the brand new book that is called Girls of the World Doing more than ever before.

Michael Tyler
00:01:34
His name is Michael Tyler.

Michael Tyler
00:01:37
He wrote this book with Lindsay Davis.

Michael Tyler
00:01:39
And oh my goodness, are you in for a treat with this interview with this discuss that we get to have.

Michael Tyler
00:01:47
Michael is a writer, a speaker, and the author of the Skin youn Live in and Mirror Face as well.

Michael Tyler
00:01:55
And he is also the co author of another book with Lindsay.

Michael Tyler
00:02:02
And he talks, as you will see, but his whole purpose in life and what he talks about is acceptance and self love.

Michael Tyler
00:02:13
He advises educators on DEI and SEL curriculum and has addressed forums for the King center, the Clinton foundation, the Rockefeller foundation, and Beyond Differences.

Michael Tyler
00:02:27
So without further ado, I am so delighted to bring you this discussion with Michael Tyler.

Heather Hester
00:02:47
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:03:00
My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester
00:03:05
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:03:15
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:03:32
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Michael Tyler
00:03:49
Michael, welcome.

Michael Tyler
00:03:51
Welcome to the show.

Michael Tyler
00:03:52
I'm so delighted that you are here to talk to my really beautiful audience today and to share about your new book, which I just heard just hit the New York Times bestseller list.

Michael Tyler
00:04:08
Congratulations.

Michael Tyler
00:04:09
That is huge.

Annette
00:04:11
Big thanks, Annette.

Annette
00:04:12
It is huge for any writer of any genre, of any age group to be able to reach that kind of an accolade, that acknowledgement.

Annette
00:04:21
It validates all of the lonely hours you spend.

Annette
00:04:26
But for me, it's also an affirmation of what my intent is for writing because I'm one of those writers who I'm less about writing stories and more about writing messages because I have an interest in whatever it is that I put out into the world, particularly as it pertains to children.

Annette
00:04:48
It's going to have some effect on what character they develop.

Annette
00:04:52
I grew up coming into civil rights era where content of character was always foremost a focus in my development.

Annette
00:05:02
And I, and that's what my approach has always been to writing for children is how am I contributing to the content of the character?

Annette
00:05:10
So when something like the New York Times bestsellers list says you did a good job of contributing to the content of the character, I feel good about that.

Michael Tyler
00:05:19
Yes, I would say so.

Michael Tyler
00:05:21
I would say so.

Michael Tyler
00:05:22
So just so everyone knows the full title of this beautiful book, which, oh, my goodness, is just gorgeous, as well as the content is beautiful.

Michael Tyler
00:05:32
It is called Girls of the World Doing More than ever Before.

Michael Tyler
00:05:36
So this is the second book that you and Lindsay Davies have written together.

Michael Tyler
00:05:42
Can you talk a little bit about.

Michael Tyler
00:05:44
I'd love to hear more about this book and then kind of bigger picture about the two of you writing together, why you've chosen to do this and kind of what you're trying to, what message you're really wanting to put out into the world.

Annette
00:05:57
Well, I think Lindsey is in accord with me in terms of actually doing message content material.

Annette
00:06:05
Lindsay approached me to do this book, Girls of the World, after we had done the book we did last year, the Smallest Part of the Dot.

Annette
00:06:13
And so I went back up to that book because we had known each other for two or three years before we decided to actually get involved in a writing project.

Annette
00:06:24
Lindsay had a couple of books remaining on a book contract deal that she had done already, but she wanted to do something that was different than what she had previously read.

Annette
00:06:33
And she had four books that had done very well.

Annette
00:06:35
And she had the experience where she was talking to some individuals and some students in a classroom, and part of the discussion turned to divisions and society and race, and she was introducing to them the concept of the Human Genome Project, in which a truth that came from the Human Genome project is that 99.9% of all human beings are genetically identical, which is a fascinating thing.

Annette
00:07:03
So what if we had a world based upon understanding that?

Annette
00:07:07
Right, right.

Annette
00:07:09
One tenth of 1% makes this difference.

Annette
00:07:12
And so Lindsay contacted me after she had that outing with the.

Annette
00:07:17
With the school and said that she was so excited about how excited they were to learn that that she just knew that this had to be some kind of book, and that's how A Small Spot of the Dot came to be.

Annette
00:07:30
And it was after that one was done that the.

Annette
00:07:33
The simplicity of how we work together was such that she said, well, you know, I've got one more book I want to.

Annette
00:07:41
I want to consider you to join me on doing.

Annette
00:07:45
Which was an immediate.

Annette
00:07:46
Yes, and of course, and why not for me?

Annette
00:07:49
And she said that she really wanted to do a book that spoke to girls, a book that spoke to the development of Their own identity and their own sense of self.

Annette
00:08:00
And that's something that I had always wanted to do.

Annette
00:08:03
I was always reluctant to write that book on my own because I never wanted to be accused of mansplaining that issue.

Annette
00:08:12
And so I always felt that if I ever did that project, it required me to have a co author who was female.

Annette
00:08:20
And Lindsay and I had already proved that we knew how to run a fast dunk.

Annette
00:08:26
So that's what it was.

Annette
00:08:32
It was a pass.

Annette
00:08:33
And there it was.

Annette
00:08:34
And it was a joy to write.

Annette
00:08:36
It was fun.

Annette
00:08:37
We were on the same page right off the bat, as we were the first time around.

Annette
00:08:42
And it was just easy putting everything together, putting the concept together.

Annette
00:08:47
The one thing that I give Lindsay credit for is that she has a very pure sense of what it is that she wants to convey.

Annette
00:08:58
And she definitely has trust that I can find the concepts and the words to work with her to get that to become verbalized.

Annette
00:09:09
And it's not a difficult thing for us to do, to come together.

Annette
00:09:14
Working with her is the easiest thing that I've had in terms of collaboration with anybody.

Annette
00:09:18
This piece of cake.

Michael Tyler
00:09:21
That's so nice.

Michael Tyler
00:09:22
You're very lucky.

Annette
00:09:23
Yeah, very lucky.

Michael Tyler
00:09:24
I'm really, really lucky.

Michael Tyler
00:09:26
So are you the one who has the talent with being able to rhyme and to really bring things together in such a poetic.

Michael Tyler
00:09:35
Just the way it's, you know, it's written is so beautiful and so pleasant to read.

Annette
00:09:43
Thank you for saying that.

Annette
00:09:45
Yeah, that is something that.

Annette
00:09:47
I do have an actor.

Annette
00:09:48
Lindsay and I happen to like the same child poets we were.

Annette
00:09:53
We're both big Shel Silverstein fans.

Annette
00:09:55
We're both big Dr.

Annette
00:09:57
Seuss fans.

Annette
00:09:57
So we both have that kind of lyrical DNA in our minds.

Annette
00:10:02
And so when we sit down to write, I think we both bring that.

Annette
00:10:07
It informs how we write.

Annette
00:10:10
But I am very adept at doing things quickly.

Annette
00:10:14
I have a huge amount of words swimming around in my head, and I can just reach out and grab them.

Annette
00:10:20
But that lyricism, the poetic lyricism, that's always in my mind, no matter what it is I'm thinking about.

Annette
00:10:28
I tend to phrase things even if I'm writing prose.

Annette
00:10:32
People have often said that when I'm writing prose, it's very lyrical.

Annette
00:10:35
I just had that sort of rhythm in my head.

Annette
00:10:37
And the subject matter that Lindsay and I were tackling was so dear to us.

Annette
00:10:44
We were so impassioned about that.

Annette
00:10:46
It just became easy to bring it out.

Michael Tyler
00:10:49
That is a gift.

Michael Tyler
00:10:51
I mean, really, really a gift.

Michael Tyler
00:10:53
Oh, my goodness.

Michael Tyler
00:10:55
I hope you both Realize that.

Michael Tyler
00:10:57
I mean, just individually, but then as a team, that is really, really extraordinary.

Michael Tyler
00:11:02
You're very lucky that you found each other.

Annette
00:11:04
You were lucky.

Annette
00:11:05
We're lucky.

Annette
00:11:05
We realize that.

Annette
00:11:06
Yes.

Michael Tyler
00:11:07
Oh, my goodness.

Michael Tyler
00:11:08
So, you know, my audience is pretty niched as well.

Michael Tyler
00:11:15
A lot of people who listen to my show are parents and allies of LGBTQ kids, youth, adolescents, young adults.

Michael Tyler
00:11:24
So this is definitely.

Michael Tyler
00:11:26
You know, when I.

Michael Tyler
00:11:26
This came into my inbox, and I was like, oh, you know, not a direct translation, but definitely a parallel.

Michael Tyler
00:11:32
Right.

Michael Tyler
00:11:32
Like, there's a lot of stuff here that I love and is so beautiful.

Michael Tyler
00:11:37
And so I'm wondering if you, you know, just some words of wisdom that can translate from what you wrote in this book, from what you shared in this book to a parent who might be just beginning this journey with their child.

Annette
00:11:57
I think that there are a lot of overlays, because whenever you're looking at any individual who's part of a group that is marginalized or disparaged on a broad scale in society, many of the issues that they confront are the same issues that others and other demographics confront as well, because the overall issue is the dehumanization of that person.

Annette
00:12:22
And so you can be African American in a racial caste system in America, and you're dehumanized.

Annette
00:12:29
You can be poor in a society that favors wealth, and you can be dehumanized.

Annette
00:12:35
You look at the caste system in India, for example, one of the most dehumanizing systems of apartheid anywhere.

Annette
00:12:41
And so when you look at children who grow up lgbtq, they are constantly dealing with not only the peril of their own psychology of constantly questioning themselves, correct, undermining their own value, because they're not finding value anywhere, even oftentimes not in their own home.

Michael Tyler
00:13:05
That's right.

Annette
00:13:06
But the greater pressure comes from the peers that they're with because they can't find community, which is essential.

Annette
00:13:14
If you're going to have any sense of belonging, you need to find that community with your peers.

Annette
00:13:18
And so their sense of dehumanization can be far more.

Annette
00:13:24
Have a far more gravity to it, because as young people, they are yet not equipped to handle that, to emotionally deflect that or psychologically deflect that.

Annette
00:13:37
And for parents who really are allies, I always say that they need to become more than allies, because you can be an ally and be passive.

Annette
00:13:48
To me, they need to be active engineers in the identity construction of their own children.

Annette
00:13:54
I have a son who's gay, and I knew that he was before he was 2 years old.

Annette
00:14:00
I knew that he was.

Annette
00:14:01
And at the time that I realized that, I actually took some delight in knowing it.

Annette
00:14:08
I did.

Annette
00:14:09
Because I didn't grow up with homosexual anxieties.

Annette
00:14:17
I didn't grow up, it's strange to say that because I'm a kid in the 60s, but my mother was very open to lots of people and she worked with a lot of individuals in fashion design.

Annette
00:14:30
And so I got to meet a lot of people who were in the LGBT community community and had a comfort level with it right off the bat.

Annette
00:14:40
Also, by the time I was 15 years old, I developed a fascination for life sciences, part of which was genetics and evolutionary biology.

Annette
00:14:47
And I started doing a lot of reading of research that was coming out of the Salk Institute out in California.

Annette
00:14:53
And much of what they were concentrating on was trying to understand if there was a biological genetic substrate for homosexuality, same sex attraction.

Annette
00:15:02
And finding out that there actually was, it legitimized the biology of it all.

Annette
00:15:08
And one of the things that I came to understand and what I'm saying, I'm saying because I hope parents who are listening are picking up on the point I'm making with all this information is that this is what you need to know if you want to help your child.

Annette
00:15:21
Okay.

Annette
00:15:22
Because if you, if you don't take it from the approach that I'm suggesting that you might take it from, what ends up happening is you become susceptible to the social pressures out there because you're trying to fit in where everybody else is trying to tell you you should be.

Annette
00:15:37
And that's the last thing you can do when it comes to your own child.

Annette
00:15:39
So When I was 15, I was learning, for example, that about 8% of all animals will exhibit some sort of same sex attraction.

Annette
00:15:52
And then even a similar amount will exhibit hermaphroditic presentation.

Annette
00:15:59
And in humans, we consider that art term out to be intersex because hermaphrodites actually have functioning organs where intersex stealth.

Annette
00:16:09
They may have don't do a presentation, but not functioning.

Michael Tyler
00:16:13
Right.

Annette
00:16:13
And so what that told me at that young age was that there was no set determination, a binary determination of what sexual presentation was or what sexuality was.

Annette
00:16:29
That it existed on a gradation and that I saw it at that young age as frontier of understanding what human, the human animal was about.

Annette
00:16:40
Because we didn't understand this at all, because we already had a fixed notion on what it was.

Annette
00:16:46
And we were just going to run with that and make everybody fall into that category.

Annette
00:16:49
So from early on, teenage years on, I never fell into that.

Annette
00:16:54
I never Felt that I had to subsidize an understanding of that.

Annette
00:16:58
I was always fighting people with that.

Annette
00:17:01
I ended up having a very lonely teenage life.

Annette
00:17:06
But what it made me when I realized that my son at a very early age was gay, is it made me immediately.

Annette
00:17:17
And this was not something I had to make a conscious decision to do.

Annette
00:17:20
It made me immediately embrace him as I would any other child.

Annette
00:17:23
It made me immediately embrace all of his humanity.

Annette
00:17:28
Because I didn't see it as being an apparition.

Annette
00:17:30
I didn't see it as being a perversion.

Annette
00:17:32
I didn't see it as being a choice.

Annette
00:17:35
I saw it as being an element of who he is.

Annette
00:17:38
When I look at people and listen to people describe their sexuality, I don't hear it any differently than if you were to describe yourself as a person who wore glasses, or if you were a person who had blonde hair, or if you were a person who was 5 foot 8.

Annette
00:17:51
To me, it's a very benign adjective that describes who you are.

Annette
00:17:56
And I think if parents out there were to start off with that as a foundational and a fundamental understanding of how to think about their relationship with their child, they wouldn't find it to be complex at all.

Michael Tyler
00:18:10
Right, Right.

Annette
00:18:12
So that's what I would recommend they start off with doing that.

Annette
00:18:17
It's not that hard.

Michael Tyler
00:18:19
Well, it's not that hard.

Michael Tyler
00:18:20
It's like saying you love your child unconditionally.

Annette
00:18:26
Yeah.

Annette
00:18:26
You just have to.

Annette
00:18:27
Part of what your love unconditionally is, is that you have to love.

Annette
00:18:34
The way I term it is, you have to love with power.

Annette
00:18:36
And what I mean by that is, is that you have to love knowing that you have to give them the strength to prevail and exist in a society that more likely is going to aggress against them.

Annette
00:18:50
There's more likely going to antagonize against them.

Annette
00:18:54
Now, my mother had to do that raising African American children.

Annette
00:18:58
So what I say is there's an overlay between the dehumanization of people, Regardless of what demographic they happen to fall into, then it's the same.

Annette
00:19:07
So my mother had to love us with power.

Annette
00:19:09
She had to give us that internal strength, that internal power, and that truly fully embracing and accepting who your child is.

Annette
00:19:17
Because if you don't, they're always going to think that there's something wrong with them coming from their own parents.

Annette
00:19:22
Right.

Annette
00:19:23
And you're the people, mom and dad.

Annette
00:19:26
And people have to give them their greatest sense of self, their greatest sense of certainty.

Annette
00:19:31
And so if you're operating with the thought Any thought at all, any doubt, any hesitancy that some element of your child is something is abnormal or something that delegitimizes their humanity, then you're.

Annette
00:19:48
You're crippling them.

Annette
00:19:50
You're going to harm them in some kind of way.

Annette
00:19:52
And so I look at it again.

Annette
00:19:54
I look at sexuality as a benign characteristic.

Annette
00:19:57
You know, I wear a size 13 shoe.

Annette
00:19:59
That person over there happens to like men.

Annette
00:20:01
And these men, I don't see it any differently.

Annette
00:20:05
I never have seen it.

Annette
00:20:07
This is the problem when you take the religious intent, give it a political cause, and then you use it to persecute people.

Annette
00:20:16
And so I don't have that problem, that complication.

Michael Tyler
00:20:20
No, you do not.

Michael Tyler
00:20:21
That was so beautifully said.

Michael Tyler
00:20:24
I feel like we should.

Michael Tyler
00:20:25
That was kind of a drop the mic moment.

Michael Tyler
00:20:28
Had it there.

Michael Tyler
00:20:29
We're done.

Michael Tyler
00:20:30
All right.

Michael Tyler
00:20:34
You really don't know how to improve or add to that.

Michael Tyler
00:20:37
I mean, bestselling author who is just extraordinary.

Michael Tyler
00:20:46
Oh, my gosh, you just made my.

Michael Tyler
00:20:48
Really made my entire day.

Michael Tyler
00:20:50
Thank you so much.

Annette
00:20:51
I appreciate you saying that.

Annette
00:20:54
But as I caution everybody, I can't talk the ears off an elephant, so we can go on and on.

Annette
00:21:00
For example, I remember growing up and my mother having worked with individuals who put on fashion shows and did garments and so forth, and having met a few men who were in that business.

Annette
00:21:14
And at the time, I was one of the sectors that they could go into where they actually earn income was fashion, and it was beauty, and it was cosmetics, and it was hairstyling and so forth.

Annette
00:21:25
So they were the ones who really were the experts at putting together fashion shows, which oftentimes were fundraisers for organizations in my neighborhood, in my community.

Annette
00:21:33
And so I got to meet a lot of these men and I got to befriend a lot of them.

Annette
00:21:37
And I always found them to be fascinating because there was a vitality to them that I just didn't see in other people.

Annette
00:21:44
But I came to understand them also to be individuals who found their own community.

Annette
00:21:49
And I got to be invited into that community to really understand who they were as people.

Annette
00:21:54
And so growing up, I was around them a lot, and I saw the person.

Annette
00:21:59
I didn't see the thing because that's what society wants to do with people it doesn't like.

Annette
00:22:06
It wants to call them a thing instead of realizing that they are a person.

Michael Tyler
00:22:11
Right.

Annette
00:22:12
And so that's where the name calling comes in.

Annette
00:22:14
Name calling is that thing.

Annette
00:22:16
And I never saw them as things.

Annette
00:22:19
I never saw them as alien people.

Annette
00:22:21
I always saw them as People who had hopes and fears, people who had heartache and laughter, people who had deeper understandings about elements of life than many of us who aren't challenged as they are.

Annette
00:22:36
When every single day of your life is an issue of survival, you come to live life with a greater understanding of how to survive.

Michael Tyler
00:22:44
Right.

Annette
00:23:39
And you come to live life with a greater value of what living day to day actually is.

Annette
00:23:44
And so many people that I found who've been most disparaged in life are the people that I've gotten my greatest lessons about what it means to be human.

Annette
00:23:53
And I think that that is the question that we should all be asking any parent out there who is raising a child and what my sister.

Annette
00:24:03
My sister's lesbian, my sister likes to call the Alphabet community.

Annette
00:24:06
Any parent is out there raising a child in the Alphabet community should not be trying to understand their child in terms of their sexuality.

Annette
00:24:15
This is what I would recommend.

Annette
00:24:16
I'm not saying this is an orthodoxy.

Annette
00:24:18
This is what I recommend.

Annette
00:24:19
They should be simply trying to understand unsnited child as being fully human, because that's what they are.

Michael Tyler
00:24:25
Yes, they're fully human.

Annette
00:24:27
And if you help them understand that, then they can exist and be fully human anywhere they are in the world, anywhere they are in society, anywhere they are in any city that they had.

Annette
00:24:37
And I also advocate that by doing that, because there's nothing bigger than being human.

Annette
00:24:44
There really isn't.

Annette
00:24:45
You can be a woman, but that's not fully human.

Annette
00:24:47
You can be a man, but that's not fully human.

Annette
00:24:49
I can be 6 foot 3, but that's not fully human.

Annette
00:24:51
You can be 5 foot 3, but that's not fully human.

Annette
00:24:53
To be fully human is this composite.

Annette
00:24:55
It's so big that it casts a shadow of everything else.

Annette
00:24:58
So if you're developing that, there's no power anybody can have over you.

Annette
00:25:03
And oftentimes it shuts down what might be adversarial because people cower in power.

Annette
00:25:11
So give them that power.

Michael Tyler
00:25:13
So good.

Michael Tyler
00:25:15
That's beautiful.

Michael Tyler
00:25:16
I mean, really beautiful.

Michael Tyler
00:25:18
So there's so much wisdom in that.

Michael Tyler
00:25:22
Because I think, as you know, what I hear from people so often is I'm so scared for my child, I don't know what to do.

Michael Tyler
00:25:32
And it's so easy to kind of get wrapped up in that space right.

Michael Tyler
00:25:36
Where then you can't see.

Michael Tyler
00:25:38
So you offering this wisdom is so empowering, and it's so freeing and just incredibly good advice for everyone listening.

Michael Tyler
00:25:55
So I hope y'all are taking notes.

Annette
00:25:58
I hope people regard it that way.

Annette
00:26:00
I really do.

Annette
00:26:00
And you said, for example, parents who fear for their child's existence.

Annette
00:26:06
There's not a parent anywhere in the world, anywhere in America who has a daughter who doesn't fear for her existence.

Annette
00:26:14
Yep.

Annette
00:26:15
There's not a single one.

Annette
00:26:17
So how.

Annette
00:26:18
How are you processing that?

Annette
00:26:20
How are you sending your daughter in the world when you know the hazards that face young girls and face grown women in this world?

Annette
00:26:28
The hazards are far greater for girls and women than there are for boys and men.

Annette
00:26:33
And so are you handicapping your daughter in some kind of way because she's a girl entering a world where she might find aggression or she might find abrasions or she might find misogyny and sexism?

Annette
00:26:48
Because if you're not considering her full humanity to deflect that, she will always be vulnerable to that.

Annette
00:26:54
So I don't see that any differently than having a child who's a race minority who has to face that, or having a child who has a disability and has to face that.

Annette
00:27:07
Why is that any different?

Annette
00:27:09
If we think it's different, then we will make it different for our children.

Annette
00:27:13
And so we as parents can make that a problem.

Annette
00:27:15
We don't need to make that a problem for them.

Annette
00:27:18
They should fully embrace who they are as being natural.

Annette
00:27:22
You should fully embrace who they are as being natural.

Annette
00:27:25
Yep.

Annette
00:27:26
There's.

Annette
00:27:27
There's oftentimes something wrong with how society sees them, but there's nothing wrong with how they see themselves.

Michael Tyler
00:27:36
Correct.

Annette
00:27:36
Okay.

Annette
00:27:37
I go out in the world every day, and there's something wrong with how society sees me.

Annette
00:27:42
When I see people grabbing their purses and clutching and following me around in stores and so forth, there's something wrong with how society sees me, but there's nothing wrong with how I see myself.

Annette
00:27:55
So I have a Teflon garment on my mind.

Annette
00:28:00
Whenever I walk outside, that stuff just bounces off of me.

Annette
00:28:04
Because I don't enter the world as a black man or as an African American man or as an African American.

Annette
00:28:09
Those are elements of who I am.

Annette
00:28:11
I enter the world as a human, as being fully human.

Annette
00:28:13
There's nothing bigger than that.

Annette
00:28:15
Nothing bigger than that.

Annette
00:28:17
So I would ask those parents out there, with care and love and with the intent to power, give power to their children because they love with power, love strongly, love fiercely, that they.

Annette
00:28:31
They will.

Annette
00:28:31
They will be able to give them that same Teflon shield.

Heather Hester
00:28:35
I love that.

Michael Tyler
00:28:36
Thank you.

Michael Tyler
00:28:37
That is just.

Michael Tyler
00:28:38
That is just perfect.

Michael Tyler
00:28:40
Just like that.

Michael Tyler
00:28:43
I would love to talk to you all day long, but I am watching our time very closely.

Michael Tyler
00:28:48
So I just want to give you one more.

Michael Tyler
00:28:50
I know we.

Michael Tyler
00:28:51
We talked about the book just a little bit at the beginning, but I'd love to kind of circle back and end with that as well.

Michael Tyler
00:28:57
So I will let you end with whatever you would like to say about the book, where people can find it and all of those good things.

Annette
00:29:07
First of all, you can find it anywhere.

Annette
00:29:08
Anywhere you can get a book, whether it's your local store, whether it's a big chain, whether it's online in your library.

Annette
00:29:17
The book is available.

Annette
00:29:17
It's keenly available, and I really hope people seek it out.

Annette
00:29:20
The one thing I most, most want to say about the book is it's easy to say that it's about girl empowerment, but to me, it's more than that, because I believe that no society will ever reach its maximum while denying half of its citizens.

Annette
00:29:36
And America has yet to reach its maximum.

Annette
00:29:38
There's no society on the planet that's done so because patriarchy runs most societies, and so most societies are denying half their citizens.

Annette
00:29:45
I want to live in a world where humanity is maximized.

Annette
00:29:49
And so to me, as a matter of logic, then, in order to have that.

Annette
00:29:52
That more perfect union or that ultimate civilization, you have to bring women and girls full on board.

Annette
00:30:00
You have to get the most out of them that you can and give them the belief that they can get the most out of themselves so they can make the most contribution to any society that they're in, and then we will have the most of whatever humanity can be.

Annette
00:30:13
So to me, it's more than just an identity empowerment.

Annette
00:30:18
It's how do we put a message inside of a child that's going to enable them to create the maximum society that any of us can live in?

Annette
00:30:27
Because that's the society I want to live in.

Annette
00:30:28
So that's the last thing I would say about it.

Michael Tyler
00:30:31
Love it.

Michael Tyler
00:30:33
Thank you.

Michael Tyler
00:30:33
Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be with me and to be with all of my people.

Michael Tyler
00:30:41
So, so appreciate it.

Annette
00:30:43
Thank you.

Annette
00:30:44
I appre.

Annette
00:30:44
Appreciate you giving me the time because you gave me a chance to talk.

Annette
00:30:47
I love to talk.

Michael Tyler
00:30:51
Absolutely.

Michael Tyler
00:30:51
Well, you know that's what I do, right?

Michael Tyler
00:30:57
Oh, my goodness.

Heather Hester
00:31:00
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:31:03
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so, so grateful.

Heather Hester
00:31:08
For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:31:23
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:31:29
And remember to just breath until next time.