Dr. Richard Schwartz | The Parts Within - Understanding Anxiety Through IFS

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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall,
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and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
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authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
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leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
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and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
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is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
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helping you find alignment with the person you are always
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meant to be. Let's get started. My name is doctor
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Flee Mall, your co host for the session, and I'm
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chilled to be here today with colleague and friend, doctor
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Richard Schwartz.
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Thanks Fleet, always good to be with you.
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Oh, I really enjoy our conversation. It's always illuminating. Your
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IFS model is kind of described in the bio A
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little bit was born from your deep listening and witnessing
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with your clients and your willingness to really follow their
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inner landscapes. So I want if you could share maybe
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a pivotal moment in your own life that kind of
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led you in the direction of not only being a psychologist,
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a clinician psychotherapist, but kind of set you up to
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have that kind of willingness encourage to go with your
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client's experience and developed this model.
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What drove me to try to do something big was
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I was the oldest of six boys to a very
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successful medical researcher, and I was supposed to be that,
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and I think I had undiagnosed ADHD and I just
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wasn't a good student, And so I came out of
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my family with a lot of worthlessness because I told
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my father crazy and a strong desire to prove him
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wrong about me, and no idea of how to do that,
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particularly given my proclivities which were not to work real
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hard or anything. And I've often said, and I had
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a nicer father, IFS wouldn't exist, probably because when I
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ran into phenomena early on with when clients started talking
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about these parts, I had two advantages. One was systems thinking,
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so I didn't just i'd understand each part individually, but
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I tried to understand how they operated as a system
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from my family therapy background. And then the other was
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that I had seduously avoided studying psychodynamic work, so I
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didn't have a map to the territory, and relatively your question,
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I really had to be in beginner's mind basically to
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just be curious and was kind of dependent on my
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clients to teach me about what was happening inside, and
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we would co construct experiments together. And so I think
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all those ingredients were needed for it to come out
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like this.
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So as you describe growing up and coming of age
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and having undiagnosed ADHD, not particularly being a good student,
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and joey or not meeting your father's expectations or perhaps
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even demands, and all the attendant shame and conflict around that,
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and then your desire to sort of prove him wrong
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and establish yourself with some kind of fuel for your career,
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which is often the case for us. But I'm wondering if,
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throughout that whole period, until you began to get your
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own footing and your own career and your own identity,
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if fear and anxiety were part of that whole experience.
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Yeah, they were constant companions, particularly anxiety. And you know,
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I had anxiety for good reasons, in the sense that
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I didn't have direction, and I didn't have a good
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track record, and so you know, I had a pretty
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good time in college, but I didn't get good grades,
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but was able to make some friends and so on.
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But when I left college, I really was sort of
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casting about and then I ran into transidental meditation, and
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through the mantra I was able to get away from
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my anxiety and enter the basically access more self what
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I call so and was actually very helpful to me.
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Even though I was doing what I call what John
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Welller and others have called a spiritual bypass, I was
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using the mantra and the state I could achieve to
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get away from my anxiety and fear rather than trying
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to help them, and it really did help me. I mean,
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I could access a lot more courage and I started on,
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I got more direction, but yeah, it wasn't healing.
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Well, that brings up, I think, a good point, and
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I think, you know, we're going to explore the whole
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territory period of anxiety and the internal family systems opposed
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to working with that. And if we're really suffering with anxiety,
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you know, in a fairly pronounced way, there's some need
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to calm that down a little bit in some way,
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or maybe an ifs terms get a little bit of
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a foothold in some aspect of what you call self
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of the capitalists in order to then be able to
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turn back towards the anxiety and do the deep work,
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do the healing work. Would you agree with that?
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That's right. Yeah, So if someone comes to me in
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a panic attack, I'm not going to try to ground
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them going to I'm going to talk to that anxious part,
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the panicking part, about separating from them what we call
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unblending from the person, so that they can help the part,
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because it's very hard to help it if it's totally
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taken over, and generally, if they actually believe what I'm
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saying that it'll be easier to help them. If they
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could pull their energy out a little bit, they will
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and the client will. Whereas before, if I said, how
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do you feel toward that anxious part, you would say
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some version, I am that part. I don't feel toward it,
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I just am it. If I convinced it to separate
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and I asked that same question, you'd say, I'm feel
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bad for it. I can see that it's really just scared.
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And so now you'd have a little distance from it,
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and you would have access to more of what I
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call self, and then I could begin to help you
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work with it, so it.
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Seems like an initial unblending base is pretty critical. Do
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you run into situations where people just you know, are
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it's really difficult for them don't blend.
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Or yeah, And that's generally because the anxious part, which
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in my system often is what we call an exile,
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you know, Like with me, I was really trying to
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exile that anxiety. And most people try to do that
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so they can function. And so if it were just anxiety,
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it would be wouldn't be a problem. But it turns
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out you're locking up a part of you it's stuck
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in a scary scene and has anxiety because of that,
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or it might carry what we call a legacy burden
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of anxiety that came into you from your parents or
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something like that. But the point is when you exile
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the anxiety, then it's desperate to get help. And so
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anytime there's an opening, you know, burst out of hiding
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or out of where it's locked up and try to
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totally take over, because it believes if it doesn't totally
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take over, you're going to lock it up again.
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So I want to explore further your understanding of anxiety
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from an IPS perspective, at which you've already begun to explain,
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but maybe first we should just at least lightly touch
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on the overall landscape of IOPs, with these different categories
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of parts and the managers and the self and so forth.
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I wonder if you could just lay that out for
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us briefly.
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Yeah, So, the basic idea is that it's the natural
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state of the mind to be multiple, to have parts,
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to have these personalities, and that given that it's the
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natural state of the mind, that there are no bad ones.
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They're all valuable and they contain resources and qualities that
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help us in line. But trauma and attachment injuries and
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slings and arrows we face as we, especially as children,
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force the matter their naturally valuable states into roles that
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can be damaging and often are quite extreme. And again
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from my systems background, as I was getting all that
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from my clients, it's tried to create a map of
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that territory, and so I was looking for distinctions, and
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the big distinction that leaped out was between parts that
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before they were hurt, we would call them these wonderful
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inner children provide so much lovely creativity and playfulness and
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openness and desire to connect and all that. Well, once
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they get hurt or terrified, or made anxious or given
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what I call a burden of worthlessness, then they're much
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not much fun to be around. And so because they
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have the ability to overwhelm us and to pull us
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back into the cities they're stuck in and to make
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it hard to function. And so we try to and
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are often told to by our parents or the culture
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to lock them up and to just not go back there.
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And I think about what happens to make them anxious
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and to just move on. This is a move on culture.
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We don't realize that in doing that, we're not just
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moving away from the fear and the memories, but we're
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also locking away our most precious qualities just because they
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got scared or hurt, and now we don't have access
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to that, those lovely qualities anymore. And once you have
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a lot of what I call exiles, so these are
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vulnerable parts that got just by dinn of getting hurt
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or terrified or shamed, get locked away inside. And once
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you have a lot of anxiles, you feel more delicate.
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The world seems more dangerous, so many things could trigger
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that anxiety. So other parts are forced to become protectors.
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So they have to leave their valuable states and take
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on these protective roles, some of whom we call managers,
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because they're trying to manage your life so that you
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don't feel that anxiety. Then it doesn't get triggered, and
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so the anxious exile is contained. And we do that
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in a variety of ways. You know, we try to
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make sure we look good and perform at a high level,
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so don't we get criticized or rejected. We don't let
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people close enough to hurt us again, and take care
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of everybody so they don't leave us. So there's a
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variety of common managerial roles. Some of them, because they're
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so determined to not let anything like that happen again,
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become these inner critics, and they're criticizing us to go
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to us to form better or to look better. And
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so those we call managers manager protectors. Despite their best efforts,
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the world still has a way of triggering your anxiety
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or it pops out, you know, when you're low energy
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or something. And when that happens, it's a big emergency
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for some parts that are standing by to take you
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away from it right away, and so we call them firefighters.
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They're fighting those flames of anxiety by getting you higher
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than the flames. They're dousing them with some substance or
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distract to until it burns themselves out. And most of
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us have a variety of firefighter activities, and most of
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those activities are not socially sanctioned, so they bring on
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more criticism from the outside world, in from your critics,
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and all of that exacerbates the anxiety, which means they
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have to do more. So you're in that a vicious
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psycho a lot of the time. But the good news,
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I mean, it's all good news that these are not
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what they see and they deserve to be listened to
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and heal. But the good news is there's somebody inside
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of all of us that can do that, and it
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is different from these parts. And I just stumbled onto
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that discovery thirty eight years ago by trying to help
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people separate unblended, like I was talking about earlier, so
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they could listen to some of these parts. And once
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I was hip to the fact that these parts deserve
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to be listened to, even the ones that were really extreme,
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I was trying to get people to do that, but
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they were either afraid of the part or fears with
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the part, And so I began getting those other parts
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to open space so that they could open their minds
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to the target part. And as I did that, this
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other person would pop out who you know, seconds earlier
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the client was angry or afraid, and suddenly they're calm,
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and they're confident relative to the part. They even have
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compassion for it. And in that state part would relax
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and would share its secret history of how it got
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forced into the role. Was that and we could start
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really a great healing journey with that part and the
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parts of protects and so on. And when I would
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ask clients, because I will do this with other clients,
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just this unblending seemed like whenever we got these parts
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done blind, it was like the same person would pop
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out in different clients with those same seaword qualities and
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five others. So calm, confident, compassion, curious, creative, courageous, clear
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and connected. And so I came to call that thus self.
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And the big deal about IFS is that turns out,
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you know, forty years later and thousands of people doing
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this all over the world, that self is in. Everybody
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can't be damaged, no matter how much trauma you suffered
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in your life and is just beneath the surface of
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these parts such when they open space, it's available and
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knows how to heal them, knows how to heal inside,
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and knows how to heal your relationships.
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What if transformation isn't just about thinking differently, but feeling differently.
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Science shows us that true change happens when we align
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not just our minds, but also the neural networks in
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our hearts and guts. This heart mind connection is the
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key to deeper healing, resilience, and expanded awareness. That's why
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I created the Heart Mind All Access, membership and community,
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a space designed to help you rewire your nervous system,
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cultivate heart intelligence, and live with greater clarity and purpose.
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So yeah, so that's the brief intro.
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Yeah, very hopeful. So when someone's experiencing anxiety, especially you know,
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in a fairly pronounced way or even a debilitating way,
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is the anxiety and your experience usually localized in a
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particular part or is it pervasive across a number of
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parts or does it you know, even if the part
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hasn't completely taken over, Often people still just kind of
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feel this baseline anxiety going on in their life. So
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are there more than one part's contributing to that or
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so how does that work?
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Yeah, Usually there's like with OCD, for example, there's a
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manager who's trying to manage the anxiety by doing all
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these rituals. That manager itself carries a lot of anxiety,
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so it's doing these rituals in a very anxious way,
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but the goal is to calm down the parts, these
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anxiles that it's protecting. Most of the people have done this
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with we have a lot of anxiety, have parts that
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protectors that are very scanning for danger and so on, on
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guard all the time, and then they have these parts
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that are stuck in these dreadful scenes when they feel
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like it's needed, you know, because something bad happened. If
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you don't have a protector on the lookout all the time,
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something bad's going to happen again. The same thing could
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happen again. And so it's that kind of combination of
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managers and these terrifying parts. The manager's desperately trying to
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contain that we call anxiety. And often we'll go to
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that protector with a lot of appreciation for how howard
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it's working to try and keep the system safe, and
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then negotiate permission to go to the enzyles that it
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protects that carry that terror from gassed experiences and get
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them out of those experiences and help them what we
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call unburdened all the fear. And then we'll come back
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to the like the OCD part, and now it's a
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lot more flexible and open to unburdening itself.
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So I know that in your mom you don't see
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this parts as some kind of pathological fragment. Take in fact,
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your model is completely non pathologizing. You believe we're born
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with some kind of consolation of parts or if you will,
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community or family or parts already. And so let's say
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someone is, you know, someone's blessed to have, you know,
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just really strong positive attachment and just a really benevolent,
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loving childhood about as stable as one could imagine. What
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does their parts landscape look like relative to others who
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may have a lot of traumas and a lot of
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wounded parts, and the firefighters and managers very active.
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If you came out of such a family, and not
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many people do, it seems, but if you're dead, your
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parts would be far less what we call burdens than
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people with a lot of trauma in their background, although
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there are such things we call legacy burdens that didn't
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get necessarily from your direct experience with your family, but
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came down through the generations, maybe from some trauma that
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happened centuries ago, and now you're having to sit with
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and cherry. You know, you're not immune, even if you
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have a great family, you're not immune from those kinds
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of burdens. But yeah, you're not going to necessarily have
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that three group system that I just described, because your
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parts will be more much more likely to trust yourself,
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and yourself sort of intuitively knows to not exile and
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to actually embrace parts of you when they get scared,
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and so your parts won't be necessarily in these extreme
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roles that we find with people who have had bad
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experiences in their lives.
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So I know that when you identify these exiled parts
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and these wounded parts, they often trond to be quite
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young in terms of when the wounding happened. A lot
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of that happens around childhood and early childhood. And you
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reference before that some of these parts are when they're unburdened,
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they're a source of joy and creativity, playfulness, that kind
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of so they have that young quality perhaps once unburdened,
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or is there it traject you by which young parts
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move into adulthood or do some parts or some parts
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of that nature of having that uninhibited young quality, innocent
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quality and other parts I have different kind of.
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Yeah, a lot some of these exiles grow up, but
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more often they just stay young kids. There they help
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us be all much more playful. And I also mentioned
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that you know, and I talk about this, people say,
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but there are good reasons to be anxious down it's
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not just my past. And that's more more true now
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than ever from my point of view in this country.
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And so yeah, that's right, and people of color have
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more reasons than we do, and so on and all
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that's true. And how you cope with these real external
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fears or real external triggers has a lot to do
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with how much burdens you carry within you. So it's
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still very valivaluable to work with your parts, even when
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it's true that there is need to be on guard
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for a lot of things. And I get that objection
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when I talk about this topic. So make it clear
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we're not minimizing the fact that things are pretty scary.
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And not to minimize either the additional burden people carry
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around different fault lines of injustice around wraiths and acesicity
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and gender and many other things. Although there are many
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challenges we wish people didn't have, and we would like
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to create a world where people experience less of that,
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at the same time, our challenges can be leveraged for
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healing and personal growth and even what's called post traumatic growth.
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And so a time of uncertainty like we're experiencing now,
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which is creating a lot of additional anxiety for a
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lot of people. Political and economic insecurity, climate insecurity, all
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kinds of things going on as we know, polarization. And
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so perhaps some people who didn't feel all that challenge before,
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because you know they're parts, they probably have, you know,
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their share of some burdens, but not in a way
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that was really pronounced or was grabbing their attention, not
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enough to be going to therapy or getting involved in
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this kind of work. But maybe now with these external
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circumstantial challenges, they may be experiencing more and it may
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could actually be a portal into a doorway into embracing
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some inner work that they weren't aware of the need
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for before.
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I totally agree with that many of us can go
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most of our life without being aware of our well
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with axile and its experiences. Are times like these that
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produce what we call trailheads that if you were to
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follow the trail of the fear of the anxiety and
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you stay focused on it, it'll take you to some
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part that's in desperate need of being healed. And so
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this is a really rich time for us to heal
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our anxiety and then the other Criticulle often get is,
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so what about changing the injustice? And it's a lot
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easier to do that if you're not sort of frozen
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and then died all the time. And so as your
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healing in anxiety than yourself is much more able to
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access courage and clarity and confidence that's needed to act
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in the outside world. And so that's some of my
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goal now is as we do the healing, to bring
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more self to all these these issues with face.
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Yeah, so the famous spot from Gandhi be the change
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you want to see in the world, and you know
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we have to do that into work. If we do
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that in work, we'll be much will be much more
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effective in bringing change to the world. And you know
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that's not an excuse to just individualize it, not do
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collective work. And I think certainly we have to remember
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who said that, Gandhi, who is very much involved in
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collective work, right, and why write social change and social
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justice work. So I'm also curious, So this summit is
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rewiring fear and anxiety, right, So we're rewiring the ideas
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that we can rewire the brain shift our neural architecture
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to heal the roots of anxiety to better mana is
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anxiety or every anxiety for growth, to optimize our lives
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in different ways, to function better, be happier, and so forth,
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to serve the world. And so when you think about
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these parts, you know, we can look at our experience
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from any different perspective neurobiologically, no, physiologically, no chemically, we
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can look at it psychologically. And so when you think
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of the parts, you and I don't know if any
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research has been done, do you think of these parts,
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are these constellations of memory that would have neuro physiological,
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neurochemical correlates or a basis, or do you think of
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them more as structures of narrative? And I realize both
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could be true, but I'm just curious how you see
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that and if you think doing the parts work, doing
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ifs in the long term is actually shifting our neural architecture,
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that there's a we have a more optimal neural landscape
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from which to live our lives.
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Yeah. Well, I told you that story about my father
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and how mm hmm was this a big shot medical researcher.
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And so I've always had a kind of allergy to
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neurology and that kind of medical science, so I haven't
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studied it intensely, but our experience, our anecdotal experiences for
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sure on burdening these parts has a big impact on
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your physiology, and the burdens they carry also have a
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big impact. So yeah, and we you know, my big
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outcome study was with rheumatoid arthritis, and we found that
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we could actually help people change their pain simply by
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working with their parts. So for me, there's a big
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connection between this work and what happens inside the brain,
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but also the body in general. So I'm not sure
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I'm answer your question.
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But no, I think so you are. Yeah, I had
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a wonderful interview for doctor ron Sewel, who I know,
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you know, and you know, we're really a leader in
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integrating mindfulness in psychotherapy. And his perspective really was began
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with acceptance. So it could be different therapeutic modalities, but
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to work with our generally our impulse or is any
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kind of discomfort as avoidance or self medication or pushing
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away or you know, we're transcending or even what you called,
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you know, using meditation for spiritual bypass or something like that.
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So he said, you know, it really begins with acceptance.
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And it seems like that's a big part of the
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non pathologizing quality of IOPs as well, that we're willing
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to turn towards the sources of what we're feeling that
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may be very uncomfortable and work with it from a
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place of acceptance very much.
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And for me, mindfulness is a good first step. And
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not only is the act of noticing rather than be
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you know, blended with the anxiety, helps you separate and
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helps you access more self, and self is naturally acceptant.
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And so yeah, you know, I can support mindfulness practices
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if they include also times where you don't just winness
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the anxiety from an accepting place to actually go to
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the part that carries it and you embrace it and
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you see where it's stuck in the past and you
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get it out of there. So mindfulist practices and lots
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of spiritual practices have ways of accessing self, as I
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learned in tim Mantra, but because they see self as
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a passive witness or observer, they don't take the next
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step to having it actually actively heal the system. And
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that's what IFS does, and that's one of the differences.
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Yeah, perhaps one of the places where that work begins
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to happen, not not necessarily in a parts perspective, but
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the integration of mindfluence then with their self compassion practices,
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which may be directed a little more globally, but it
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often is to maybe even a person who isn't thinking
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in the landscapeable parts, they may still be directing it
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unintentionally at parts to themselves, because as you discovered, we
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all naturally thought, well, this part of me feels that way. Well,
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you know this part of me want we all talk
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in that language anyway, right, just in our ordinary everyday English.
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I've had conversation. She's with Christ enough and she's now
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part of if us And some of those those sort
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of general self compassion practices are again the second step
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in the right direction. But unless you really target certain parts,
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and particularly parts that ordinarily you don't like or that
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have done a lot of damage in your life or
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for other people, unless you really believe that in their existence,
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which is challenging for people from the Buddhist world, then
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you're not going to come You're not going to do
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the full NNTI with them. You might stand a little
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compassion to them, but you know, and that will be
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helpful but it's not going to heal them.
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Yeah, it seems to be a bit of a leap
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there for someon with diabetos really beginning to treat the
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parts as beings and relating to them like you would
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relate to your own children or another human being.
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Now, I get that that's a leap. And in the
482
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:58.440
Buddhist where they hit me with the word you're reifying
483
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.920
these things, well, I'm not reifying them. They're real. It's
484
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:03.839
not like I'm making them real.
485
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.279
You know, maybe including that you know, I have a
486
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:10.680
Buddhist background, but I teach a very secular form of meditation,
487
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.720
which is if I've intentionally try to develop it as
488
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:18.039
being trom informed and neuroscience informed. And also it's really
489
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.640
deep embodiment work. And so there's a trajectory of initially,
490
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:25.559
when we develop some kind of awareness practice, we're developing
491
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:28.119
that witness capacity right with the ability to witness our
492
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.319
experience rather than just being lost in it or blended
493
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:32.880
with it for that matter. And so that is the
494
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.200
beginning of connecting with a thing self and your understanding.
495
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.599
But because you could just be that passive witnessing quality.
496
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.319
But for me, in a next deeper stage, in the
497
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:46.640
path of meditation is where we've stabilized enough, whether I
498
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:51.960
think of it neurobiologically, neurophysiologically, psychologically, we've stabilized enough our
499
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.599
capacity to rest in awareness and attention. Then we can
500
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.319
begin to let go of that separate sense of witness
501
00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:02.039
a bit and drop into a more kind of nondual practice.
502
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.440
But I think one of the obstacles that comes up
503
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.880
for people at that point is to the extent that
504
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:09.440
they haven't done that in a work. As they begin
505
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:12.480
to relax or let go of that witness, if they
506
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.799
haven't done that in work, rather than dropping into a
507
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:19.000
deeper level of kind of nondual awareness and embody nondual awareness,
508
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.279
they're going to be back in the swamp, so to speak,
509
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:24.359
of their unfinished business exactly.
510
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.720
Again, it's the kind of spiritual bypass in that sense.
511
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.160
But you're going to the non dual, which is real
512
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:36.480
and it's very can be quite blissful. But you're not
513
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:39.720
bringing everybody along, or at least you're not reassuring them
514
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.920
you're going to come back and asking their permission to
515
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:46.240
let you go. And because you don't think of them
516
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.519
that way, you think that's the monkey mind or it's
517
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.240
you know, these are obstacles to your enlightenment. So then
518
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.400
you have to practice harder, and then you know, get
519
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.079
more and more addicted to the meditation to get those glimpses,
520
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:02.720
and then your parts are constantly trying to pull you
521
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:07.160
back because they feel a manner about you. So that's
522
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.240
a predicament that lots of spiritual practices are in.
523
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:13.519
I mean, for me, there's a kind of positive nondual
524
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.599
state that people can access, but I don't feel like
525
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:20.799
it really becomes truly embodied without doing that inner work. Yeah,
526
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:24.279
you're just going to run into all that unfinished business.
527
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.599
And so for a truly embodied nondual experience, I think
528
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.599
it has to be done in this integrated way, with
529
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:32.480
some form of this inner healing work. However that's done,
530
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:34.279
and of course the IPS work is one of the
531
00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:37.960
obviously one of the most effective ways to do that.
532
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:40.640
So I wonder if you could talk a little bit
533
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.799
more about, you know, from the perspective of what we've
534
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:48.480
been talking about, really further cultivating and developing this quality
535
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.720
of self leadership, maybe you know, even in an optimal way,
536
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.599
because certainly our world today needs a lot more healed
537
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.440
people who've done their inner work, who can access a
538
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.200
lot of self leadership to get out and lead and
539
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:05.440
to be positive influences in the world. Rather what can
540
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:07.960
happen because we're all a lot of us are unhappy
541
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.480
about this at whatever side of the political spectrum we
542
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.359
may be on, and we're feeling a lot of anxiety inferior.
543
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.359
So instead we get out there in the streets with
544
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.319
our parts right or you know, and that you know
545
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.960
may be reasonable, and I don't know how helpful it
546
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.799
is in the long run. So I think you know,
547
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.440
and I know if you've begun to work with leaders
548
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:30.079
to help influential leaders access more self leadership and self energy.
549
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:34.279
Yeah, last couple of years, I got the guidance that
550
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:38.799
the Anstitute could keep training psychotherapists, but my work needed
551
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:42.480
to be on what you're talking about, bringing this to
552
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:46.960
larger systems, to the heads of organizations, to social activists,
553
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.559
to influential people in general. And I've had success with that.
554
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.119
I'm working with the number of people whose names you
555
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.640
would know, to help them do their work from self
556
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.440
rather than from their righteous protective parts, and their finding
557
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.279
that not only is it more effective, but they're enjoying
558
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:08.200
what they do a lot more and healing the traumas
559
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.559
that drove those protectors. They're actually able to be in
560
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:14.759
self a lot more of the time. So ultimately i'd
561
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:18.119
like to bring that. I would love for IFS to
562
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:21.480
be more of a cultural me and that you know,
563
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.119
kids start out knowing how to relate to their parts
564
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.240
and how to access ouf and that just kind of
565
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:31.000
bubbles up and trickles down. So we do have now
566
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:34.119
a number of projects. There are school projects, and there
567
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.720
you have a training for coaches to bring it to
568
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.680
leaders and so on, and we're trying to bring it
569
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:43.400
more directly to the public as well and put out
570
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.680
a workbook this year for the public. So yeah, that's
571
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.160
been my trajectory for a couple of years now.
572
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:53.400
So only if you'd be willing, I'd love it if
573
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.640
you might lead us in some kind of reflective practice
574
00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.200
or something. And just before that, for people who are
575
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:03.039
experiencing a lot of anxiety right now, whether they feel
576
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:05.279
they've always kind of been an anxious person and now
577
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:08.319
it's really exacerbated about what's going on, or they're just
578
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:11.559
you know, they're feeling like they are now an anxious
579
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:14.359
person because there's so much going on, and you can
580
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.200
get trapped in these loops of doom, scrolling on your
581
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:20.200
phone and watching too much news and focusing on there's
582
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:22.599
nothing that negativity out there, which is actually not the case,
583
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:24.920
even though there's a lot. There's a lot going on.
584
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:27.920
How would you encourage somebody other than going to find
585
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:30.920
an IPS therapist, what else might someone do just to
586
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.559
begin to work with themselves or to begin to shift
587
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:36.720
their way of being with their anxiety?
588
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.319
To start with, Yeah, I could lead a brief meditation
589
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:44.240
around that, like that great? Yeah, I would just invite
590
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.640
you to focus on that anxious part and see where
591
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:50.759
you find it in your body or around your body,
592
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:54.200
and then notice how you feel toward it. And it
593
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.160
might be such that you're blended with it, so you
594
00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.839
don't feel toward it, and you just feel like you
595
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.720
like you're just a very anxious person. But that I
596
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:06.079
promise isn't true, and it is a part of you.
597
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.480
And if you can again try and find it in
598
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:11.920
your body, that helps to separate a little bit. And
599
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.679
after you get a sense of that, then how do
600
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.119
you feel toward this anxious part of you? In other words,
601
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:20.760
there's a you who isn't that part and has a
602
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:25.519
relationship with it, And maybe historically you've dreaded it, or
603
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:28.679
you've been afraid of it, or you've been angry at it,
604
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:33.199
which you're all sort of natural, especially in this culture reactions.
605
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:35.480
So maybe as I asked that question, that was the
606
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.519
answer that you don't like it or you feel hopeless
607
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.480
to change it. So if any of that's true, we're
608
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.360
just for a second going to ask these other parts
609
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:49.320
have an attitude toward it or hear it you'll captive
610
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.639
by it, to just relax back and give you a
611
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.960
little more space in your body for what I call yourself.
612
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:00.440
So just ask those parts to just for a few
613
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:03.679
minutes pull their energy out of you so you can
614
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:07.199
help this anxiety rather than hate it. And some of
615
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.800
you will find that those others aren't ready for that.
616
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.079
They're not going to separate, which is fine. You can
617
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:15.880
just get to know their fears of letting you any
618
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:19.360
closer to the anxiety. But if they do separate and
619
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.079
you can open your mind to it, then go ahead
620
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.760
and ask what it wants you to know about its anxiety,
621
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:27.239
and don't think of the answer, just see what comes
622
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:29.920
from that place in your body. And a related question
623
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.800
is what's it afraid would happen? If it didn't make
624
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:35.239
you so anxious all the time? If it answer to
625
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.480
that question, that it's likely a protector that's using the
626
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:42.679
anxiety to try and keep you safe, keep other parts protected.
627
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.400
That's true, then you can extend some appreciation to it.
628
00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:50.039
We're trying its best to keep everybody, say, and see
629
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.800
how it reacts to the appreciation. It didn't have an
630
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.519
answer to that what's it afraid would happen? Question, then
631
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:58.039
it's more likely to be what I call an exile,
632
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.920
just scared and stuck in a scary place. Just let
633
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:04.039
them know you get that and you care about it.
634
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.800
And in either case, a good question now is how
635
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:09.960
old does it tike you are. There's a lot of
636
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.280
these parts think you're the age they're stuck in in
637
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:16.039
the past they still have to protect you the way
638
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.559
they did back then, or that you can't protect them
639
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:21.159
because you're too young. That's true, then go ahead and
640
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.079
update them and see how they react. We're going to
641
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:27.440
come back out in a second, but before you do,
642
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:31.400
just let this part or these parts know that this
643
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.679
is the beginning of a new relationship with them. That
644
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:35.800
you're going to try and be there more for them
645
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:41.320
rather than have them take over. Then when you're ready,
646
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:44.719
the shift your focus back out here, take some deep restses.
647
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.800
That hops it's really helpful. It definitely threw me down
648
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.360
in my gut. That's where the anxiety was localized. And
649
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.400
I've known for a long time. Sometimes I can feel
650
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.559
with the chest or neck the gut is and it
651
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:59.360
creates some digestive issues from time to time. But something
652
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:02.079
into some came up really clearly. There were a number
653
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.360
of incidents in my life, one with my father and
654
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:09.039
one with each of my grandfathers, where in each case
655
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:11.039
I did something that wasn't so smart. One case when
656
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.960
my father ran out in the street after a ball
657
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.639
and he just was screaming at me. I know it
658
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:17.679
was because he was freaked out and terrified. I almost
659
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:20.440
got hit by a car, but it was very shocking.
660
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.639
Another was one of my grandfather's farms and I was
661
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:26.400
out with one of the horses. Why, I had a
662
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:28.440
water hose and I sprayed it on the horse and
663
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.599
the horse freaked out and it would get something to do,
664
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.199
and my grandfather yelled at me, and I felt really
665
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:36.760
shamed and stupid and shamed. And the other time was
666
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.280
my other grandfather his farm. I was quite young, but
667
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.119
I was standing up on something he or probably jumped
668
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:45.079
on his back and it completely freaked him out because
669
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.239
he was older. And again from this very he was
670
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.280
one of my most loving family members, that grandfather, and
671
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.719
then suddenly he reacted with this pure and anger towards me. Right,
672
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.400
So these had three incidents that have always stood out
673
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.119
in my life, but where I felt both shamed and
674
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:01.719
kind of stupid and small. And it was just right
675
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.880
there that whole thing that not related to those experiences
676
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.519
of its being a complete fracture with people I had
677
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:14.000
felt connected to and not only suddenly disconnected but feeling
678
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.679
shamed and feeling anger and shame directed at me.
679
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.039
Yeah, and so the parts come to think, you can't
680
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:25.199
really rely on consistency that keep changed suddenly all the time.
681
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.480
So yeah, there's a lot of anxiety with that. So
682
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.280
so it's great that they could have you with us
683
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:34.840
again what that was like. And then the next steps
684
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.320
would be actually go to those boys and get them
685
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.119
out of those scenes and bring them home.
686
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.199
Yeah, as you were guiding us, I you know, kind
687
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:46.639
of providing some acceptance and some reassurance and some and
688
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.599
you know, acknowledging what age I am now and what
689
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:53.039
abilities I have to take care of them. And there
690
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.960
was I felt a definite relaxation in my gut as
691
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.039
that was happening.
692
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.840
Yeah, So ideally you and your listeners would do some
693
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.400
version of that on a daily basis and build up
694
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:08.679
trust and that anxious part that it didn't have to
695
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.079
take over and that you're there for it, you haven't
696
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:15.519
forgotten about it, and it can let you lead. And again,
697
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:18.480
that's not going to totally heal it, but it's going
698
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:20.960
to to go to the second goal of I pass,
699
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:23.760
which is to have these parts trust that they're not
700
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.400
alone in there and that there's a you who can
701
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.559
really take care of things and handle the outside world too.
702
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.760
Yeah. Incredibly helpful. Yeah, it was. It came up with
703
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.480
such clarity. Yeah. I've been aware of those incidents for
704
00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:38.800
a long time, and I've had you know, enough insight
705
00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:41.239
and understanding about them to realize that what I received
706
00:39:41.239 --> 00:39:44.079
from my father and my two grandpas wasn't intentional. It
707
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:46.719
was actually they were responding to something that shock them.
708
00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:49.280
And you know, so I think I have on some
709
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:50.920
level a certain level of peace with it, but I
710
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:52.199
get feeled there's still.
711
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:54.880
An insight doesn't necessarily help those boys because they still
712
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:55.639
live back there.
713
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:56.960
Yeah, exactly, there's.
714
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.679
Still frozen in those scenes. So yeah, until you get
715
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.800
them out and help them unload, then you'll still have
716
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:03.199
some of that.
717
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:05.960
Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you for pointing me
718
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:06.599
in that direction.
719
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:08.000
Thank you welcome.
720
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:11.199
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for everything you've shared.
721
00:40:11.239 --> 00:40:14.000
Working people find out more about IPS and more about
722
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:14.480
your work.
723
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:22.360
Our website is Ipsdashinstitute dot com. Lots of resources on that.
724
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The book Everybody Loves is called No Bad Parts that
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they can get online. And I'll mention we have a
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big conference coming up in September, the first time we've
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been in person for a while, and that's in Chicago,
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So that'll be thinking our way our mailing list to
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learn about that.
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So is that conference primarily for therapists and practitioners or
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will there be the largest lay public there as well, Or.
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There'll be a lot of therapists, but there'll be a
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lot of the public also.
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Wonderful. Well, I really encourage people to explore that more
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and if people are interested in working with an IPS therapist,
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there is pretty widespread, so it's not so difficult to
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find one in your local area.
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Yeah, and there's a directory on our website.
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Wonderful doctor Richards Fort's the founder of IFS Therapy. Thank
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you so much.
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Thank you, Flee always a pleasure.
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Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember,
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real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
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00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:22.400
our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If
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00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.639
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
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and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
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00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.360
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you. Take
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care