Ep11. Couples Series- the 4 fight styles we use in conflict that are ruining your relationship

Sarah Wills: Hello and welcome to Unmasked Minds, the podcast with me. I'm Sarah the Psych from Instagram. I'm a psychologist in real life and I work predominantly with middle-aged millennial women and all of the things that go with this phase of our life. Now today we are doing the second episode in my couples series, which has just kind of evolved. In the last episode, we talked about getting back on the same team. So how do we, if we are going to navigate any of our challenges in our relationship or in our life, it is so much easier to do it when we are on the same team, because we are, you know, two people solving one problem, we've got twice the brain power. but also because our nervous systems will feel safer and we will be less likely to be triggered if we are on the same team. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, that's episode 10 of the podcast, jump in and listen to that first because I believe I gave some really cool handy tips around what to do first before we sort of tackle these big conversations in a relationship. And so with that in mind we're going to go straight into the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Now this is one of my favourite things to do with couples and I do it on all of my couples retreats. It's introduce the Four Horsemen. Now it's a Gottman method and I like to just really normalise that ⁓ does these. I mean I am yet to meet anybody. Maybe that's because most people I meet are in therapy. But I have never met anybody or heard of anybody who is perfect when it comes to conflict in relationships and communication in relationships. We all, based on our own experiences, our own history, what our parents and families showed and taught us about conflict, we all have a pre-wired nervous system to how to respond during conflict. And some of these sort of things we're going to talk today are probably intergenerational, right? You saw your parents do it, they saw their parents do it, this is what we do. And so I want to really normalise that this stuff, we all do it in a way, but it is stuff that we can work on and we can change. ⁓ the best way ⁓ work on it and change it is from a place of safety, I will never work with a client. So sometimes I work with couples together and we do this. And sometimes I'm just working with one of the people and they're sort of taking this home and trying to implement it in their families or in their own relationship. And one thing I say is this isn't a tool to use against your partner. You know, it's not a tool where you go, hey, you're doing this and you're doing that. We need to be in a position where we are trying to have this conversation together. And we are both prepared to take responsibility and hear what we're doing, but also help our partner understand the role that they're playing and then how those roles are interacting with each other. Okay. So the Four Horsemen, as you're listening to this, I want your first thought to be, which do I do? Which of these sounds familiar to me? And then potentially, what do I think I'm noticing? in my partner, So the four horsemen sort of say, when we are in conflict or there's troubles in communication, these are the behaviours ⁓ ⁓ sort of patterns that we default into. The four horsemen of the apocalypse. ⁓ we start using these behaviours and patterns, once we pick up one of these four horsemen... It's the beginning of the war. It's the beginning of the end because by that stage our nervous systems are heightened. We're defaulting into these problematic and maladaptive behaviours and nothing good is going to happen. You know, it's like we need to abort before we get to this point. And that is why in the first episode I talked about getting back on the same page before we get to this point of understanding these challenges, So let's go through the four horsemen and have a think about What do I do? What does my partner do? Maybe what have I seen in other relationships, particularly your parents? The first one is criticism, When something has happened or when we're communicating with our partner and instead of talking about the issue at hand, we start criticizing their character, right? So let's say, for example, we've asked our partner to empty the dishwasher and they haven't done it. Instead of staying focused on the fact that they haven't emptied the dishwasher, we are now saying things like, you're so lazy. You're so lazy, you don't even care about me. You're so selfish. Criticism. We're attacking the person. We're making it personal. And it's really, you know, can come across quite hurtful and really nasty. The second one, which is sometimes referred to as the worst one, I often feel that this is like not people's first go to, unless they've seen it a lot in their own family environment, which is really common. But sometimes people will go to this one when their first horsemen haven't worked for them. Like I'm criticizing you and you're not responding, so I'm going into contempt. Now contempt is where you are really showing... disdain, sarcasm, you're mocking the person and you're really putting them down. You know, it's really...I like to see it as putting yourself on a pedestal and talking down to your partner. And sometimes it is sarcasm like, ⁓ yay, you did the dishwasher. Sometimes it's really passive aggressive like, of course you didn't do that. Don't worry, I'll do that because you don't do anything to help out around here. Contempt doesn't always have to be shown through words. It's also our body language. You know, it's rolling your eyes when your partner talks. It's turning away from them while they're talking or, you know, just it can come across as a whole body response to what they're doing, which really is saying like, you're less than me at the moment. I know better and I'm putting you down. The third one is defensiveness, which is really where we're making excuses and turning it around. say I said to my partner, ⁓ you haven't unloaded the dishwasher and they're like, well, what have you done? You haven't unloaded it either. You don't know that I've had such a bad day. You didn't ask how my day was, We're really getting defensive. We're backed into a corner and we're like, well, what about you? What about this? I know a lot of you will be listening to this and thinking, my partner does that... ...but I know a lot of you will be listening to this going, yeah, I do that too. ⁓ ⁓ know, it's really important to note that we don't do these things because we're bad people. We don't do these things because we don't love our partners. We don't do these things because we want to be hurtful. We do them because when we are in a situation of conflict or misunderstanding... ⁓ or disconnection, then often it triggers us into our fight or flight mode, which then sort of triggers or activates our default patterning, Which is why I say it's important sometimes to look back. What was role modeled to me in conflict and communication as a child? ⁓ am I doing and why am I doing it? Because it's no longer about the dishwasher, is it? It's about me feeling a certain way or something within me being triggered. And the fourth one is stonewalling, which is really that it's a classic flight response. I'm just pulling away. I'm walking away, maybe physically from our discussion. I am shutting down either physically, turning away or emotionally. I'm giving the silent treatment. I'm ignoring you. Right, so it's really showing I am not involved in this but it often conveys this message that I don't care about what you're saying as well. And so more than anything I want this episode not just to educate you on the horseman... ...but to really normalise that so many of us do this... ...because if we can recognise these patterns without shame... ...and without guilt and without like, it's this dirty little secret that I do... ...if we can actually like share more of, ⁓ shit, yeah, I do that... ...then it is...it feels safer. And it feels easier to either do the work or access the work. Right. What I mean by that is so often we've spent so much time, effort and energy learning how we would like to respond. So really cognitively focusing on this is what I want to do. This is how I want to behave as a partner. This is what I want to do in conflict. This is what aligns to my values. But in the moment, because it feels so unsafe, we get triggered and we're in fight or flight mode and then we... We can't access that information so we default back into what we've always done or what we've always known. And I believe that if we can normalise this and sort of talk more about it, yeah, I do that. And I'm still a great person and a loving wife but I sometimes do that. Then it ⁓ it easier for us to say, all right, well, you know what, I ⁓ also work on that. So I'm gonna share an example with my husband and I which I've shared a couple of times. before in various talks and I get a lot of feedback that this is really useful. And I'm going to be really vulnerable when I do this because, you know, sometimes there is a bit of a feeling or expectation that psychologists who teach this stuff should never get it wrong. And I'll be honest, I get it wrong a lot of the time. I don't know if wrong's the right word, but yeah, sometimes I default back into old patterns that I'm trying to rewire. And most of the time I rewire them really well, but sometimes I don't. So I've got this example and it was a couple of years ago when I was living up at Glen Eden, for those of you who've been around for a while, up in the Hunter Valley, we were running a retreat venue that we owned and had built. And on a Sunday morning, all of the guests would check out of the retreat venue. We had dams and property and all of that. And then Rob would go out and like... shut down the sauna and the spa and let out the animals and all that kind of thing after the guests had left. Now this particular morning, I can't even tell you what the argument was about, but I feel like it had been an ongoing thing and we were really at like the peak of maybe a couple of days of resentment, a couple of days of tit for tat and it was all sort of coming to a head and I was saying, Tim, you need to talk to me, right? You need to sit down and talk. Now... He was not feeling safe because I was being quite aggressive is the word that I would use. And so he started walking away, For some of you this will feel so ⁓ for you. He started walking away and I really needed to talk to him about how I was feeling, ⁓ And so he in away ⁓ started stonewalling ⁓ me. Right, so he's walking away, he's avoiding it and that triggered me into contempt, right? Not just criticism, I was probably already criticising him. I went into contempt and basically when we are really, really triggered, we will pick up whatever weapon is around us, right? Whatever weapon that we know. Now I've mentioned it many times on here before, I am very educated. I've got four university degrees, one of them being psychology. I've done my honours in psychology and then I've got three to four years of additional training on top of that, let alone the fact that I do it every day. So one way I show contempt, and I'm not proud of this, but I'm also okay with sharing it because it's just a part of who I am. It's not who I am, it's one part of me. Sometimes when I'm feeling really backed into a corner, it's like I put myself on this pedestal and talk down to my husband, but I use really fancy and technical and clinical language, You're stonewalling right now. Don't you do that. You're disregarding my feelings. You're doing this. All of that kind of stuff, right? And I can say really hurtful things because in that moment, ⁓ we're trying to do... ⁓ because we're in fight or flight mode is we're trying to disarm or hurt the predator that's attacking us, We know that's not actually what's happening now, but that's how our body is responding. We're responding from the real primitive parts of our brain that are like, just fucking get him away, stop him right now, right? And so I will get on this high horse, so to speak, and start speaking to him in this really, you know, I owe it. I would probably tell myself it's assertive, but it's not. It's aggressive, ⁓ you're doing this wrong and you're this and you're that and you're not worthy. And I'll say things that I do not mean. And that's something that clients always come to me and say, I say these really, really hurtful things maybe about how your partner parents or how they show up in the relationship. And they say, I don't mean it, but I say it in that moment. And I've done the same thing. And it's not because we believe it. It's because in that moment I'm doing anything to win this battle or ⁓ feel safe, to get out of the danger zone. Right. And so on this particular morning ⁓ Rob's ⁓ outside across the back ⁓ There's a dam behind our house that went up to the cabins. And I'm like, you know what? You're not fucking stonewalling me. We're having this conversation. We're having it right now. Right. So I'm in fight mode and he's in flight mode. And I remember clearly he walks out and I'm like, no, I'm coming after you. So I'm coming after him and I'm yelling, right? I'm yelling in showing a lot of contempt and criticism. Yelling out and he's by now, he's got really long legs, my husband. So he's very far in front of me. Anyway, he's walking across the dam, just ignoring me, literally saying, go away, Sarah. And I am full in, in fight mode. And as we get across the dam, I look up and the guests... ...have not checked out yet. There's a whole family standing there... ...hearing every single word, listening to everything we're doing... ...and watching it as well. And it was a huge moment for me because instantly in that moment... ...I realised what I was doing because someone else was watching it. Isn't it funny how we tend to behind closed doors... there's not a spotlight on us or our behaviors and we almost don't have to accept it because no one's drawing attention to it. But in having someone else see it, and it's probably to do with a bit of my approval seeking schema, ⁓ I went, what am I doing? I knew what I was doing, but it really, like I said, I don't even remember what the fight was about anymore, but it was this real moment where I was like, Sarah, you need to see what you're doing here, Because in that moment, my husband felt unsafe that he needed to escape from me and I just followed him, And it's not uncommon. You know, I'm not sharing this so that anyone who's done it also feels bad. I'm just sharing this to say sometimes we really, really need to look at how we are communicating with our partner during conflict and take full responsibility if our behaviour …does not align with our own values. So that's a little example I guess of criticism, contempt and stonewalling. And I wonder if you could take a little moment to reflect on… …what is it that you see yourself doing or your partner doing? Do you criticise your partner? Does it go too far? Does it get personal? Do we start attacking them? Do you show contempt, Do you get on your high horse or on your pedestal and start looking down and just showing that disdain and sarcasm toward them? Do you stonewall? Are you the one giving ⁓ silent treatment? Are you ignoring for days? I can't tell you how many ... people I speak to that say, we haven't spoken for a week, It is really normal, We're stonewalling and often it is because we just don't have the tools to navigate it we don't want to end up in a blow up. So we just avoid what's happening until we both forget it or just get over it, ⁓ Or ⁓ you defensive? ⁓ Really, really one as well, that defensiveness. And I think, you know, just to reiterate, if I didn't make it clear before, So one thing I want to really emphasise is this isn't about pointing the fingers at who's doing what wrong. It's just about recognising what are these patterns that we are getting stuck in as a couple. And if that doesn't align with who we are or who we want to be or where we want to be, you know, it's really normal for couples to say, you know what, we've behaved like this up until now and now we don't want to be like this because... ⁓ We just don't. It doesn't align with who we are. We're realising the impact on our children. We're realising the impact on our relationship and we want to change that. Now there are a lot of what they call antidotes to the four horsemen. And I might share just a few of those today. So if you are noticing yourself getting into these patterns, riding off into the sunset on your horseman... What do we do about it? That's the next question. Okay, Sarah, right. I criticize him, he gets defensive, I show contempt, then he stonewalls me. Then we leave it for three days and then we just pretend nothing happened. Sound familiar? And so now I'll take you through the antidote. So if you are someone that criticises, the antidote for that is what we call a gentle start-up. So with a gentle startup, instead of criticizing the person, we start with our needs and we gently might say something like... When you didn't empty the dishwasher, I feel like you really don't see me and didn't hear me and that you don't…it wasn't about the dishwasher. I just really needed some support today and when you didn't do that I just really felt unsupported. So instead of saying you're lazy, you don't give a shit about me, we're saying hey, ⁓ feel. Because people can't say that you feel wrong. ⁓ They might say, well, that's not what I wanted. That's not what I meant. I was just too busy. And you can say, I see that, but I want you to know how that makes me feel. Right. So gentle startup in response to the criticism. When it comes to contempt, the antidote for that is to show respect rather than contempt. And this kind of has to be a commitment. It doesn't always just happen in the moment. But it's, back to last episode where we talked about being on the same team. How often are you actually saying to your partner, hey, I really appreciate you? I really appreciate everything you do. I appreciate those quirky little things that you do that I think, that you think are helping that I don't think are very helpful, but I appreciate that you're trying. And if we can show more appreciation and respect and build a culture within the relationship of appreciation and respect, then that is an antidote to showing the contempt, right? It is the opposite to what we're doing. So how do we, if you notice that your pattern or your cycle is contempt, how do we build this culture within the relationship of more appreciation, gratitude and respect? Now, defensiveness, the antidote for defensiveness is taking responsibility. And often when I say that, people will say, they stuffed up. They're the one that didn't do the dishwasher, for example. And it's not about taking responsibility for the entire situation. It's taking responsibility for the parts that you played a role in. You know, if I think of an example on the spot with the dishwasher, it might be saying, Hey, I'm sorry I didn't tell you that that was so important to me. I'm sorry I didn't tell you that …if you didn't do the dishwasher I was going to… …you know, it was more about support that I needed. I should have actually… ⁓ …I have told you that I'd had a really bad day… …and I just needed you to show me some support… …and trusted that you could have done that. Instead of almost setting this test for you… …that if you don't do the dishwasher then that proves to me… …that you don't love me and don't support me. How do we take responsibility for the parts that we played, right? And often you'll find that if we start taking responsibility rather than getting defensive, then our partner will feel safe ⁓ to do the same. You know, and it plays out like, let's say after an argument where there's a bit of defensive, well, you started it, you spoke to me like that first, you did this, you did that. What if we approach that with? Hey, I'm sorry I spoke to you like that after you didn't do the dishwasher. All right? I'm not apologising that you didn't do the dishwasher. I'm not letting you off the hook that you didn't do the dishwasher. I'm not avoiding an important conversation that we need to have. But I am apologising for that part where I criticised you because of that. I went too far and I'm really sorry about that. But let's have a chat about what happened. So taking responsibility for when you know that you go too far. How often do we go too far and we yell and we scream or we criticise or we do something and then we know deep down that we've gone too far or we've done something that we are not okay with ourselves but then out of principle because they haven't apologised or because they haven't done something, taken responsibility, we don't take responsibility ourselves, right? Go first. Someone has to go first. And the last one is for the stonewallers, If you or your partner stonewall a lot, it is really, really important to recognise that generally this is shutting down of the nervous system. It's like a freeze response. It's either a flight, I'm getting out of here, I'm avoiding it or freeze. just can't deal with this, I'm shutting down. And it is really, really important in those moments when you're stonewalling to give yourself the space to get back online, to get back into safety with your nervous system, okay. So, you know, it's often you part…you know, I look at what Rob does and he will walk away and it's actually the smartest thing to be doing. is walking away giving me the space to cool down and giving him the space to cool down and just diffusing the situation altogether. But the problem is if he's walking away and not communicating what he's doing, it's triggering, abandonment wounds within me. So ⁓ if are stonewalling, how do you take the time to soothe yourself first, And sometimes a much safer way of doing it, safer for the relationship I mean, is to say, honey, I'm really upset about this. I'm dysregulated. I'm just going to go take five minutes and then come back. And we will talk about this because this is important to me. And I don't want you to feel like I'm abandoning you. But right now I just need, there's something happening in my nervous system. need to calm it down. How about we both take half an hour? Yeah, how about you go have a shower? I'll make us a cup of tea and then we'll come back. and chat. I mean, that's the antidote. That self-soothing is the antidote for stonewalling. But I would sort of say for all of these, it is absolutely critical to recognise my nervous system is dysregulated, right? I am in fight or flight mode and nothing good is going to happen here. Everything that happens here takes me further and further away. from my values and how I want to behave because the more I do this, the angrier I'm getting, the more elevated I'm getting, the more likely I'm acting from a survival point rather than a values led point. So in all of these situations, if you are criticising, if you are showing contempt, if you're getting defensive or if you're stonewalling, it is so important to take a break, to create space, to... Ask yourself, what is going on? Why am I angry? Why am I treating the person that I actually love most in this world? Why am I treating them like this? What does it mean? It's not about the dishwasher. It's about something else that maybe I ignored or have swept under the rug. Maybe my constant criticism of this is because I haven't had the courage to ask for my needs to be met. Now that is another one that has come through a lot when I ask what would you guys like me to talk about? And I think I'll do a whole new episode on that next, which is how do you communicate with your partner that you have needs and that you'd like them to support your needs being met, especially when you've been a people pleaser and a self-sacrificer your whole life. It's like this whole new thing. How do I do that? I've just realised I have needs now. How do I ask for them to be met? So I'm going to do a whole other episode on that. But I guess just to summarise this episode, it's all been about the Four Horsemen. What are those default patterns of behaviours, thoughts and feelings that we go into during conflict? How do we recognise them, not just for our partner but for ourselves? And what are the alternatives? What are the antidotes? How can we do things differently? And I don't think anyone listening to this... is certainly no one would have made it this far if they think they're perfect at this. You are ⁓ not alone. And it's the really healthy couples that are not afraid to do this work. ⁓ healthy couples do hard work. Healthy couples get uncomfortable. They unpack in the mud together and support each other through it. And if this stuff interests you, then please Google Four Horsemen, Gottman, Google that. There is so many resources out there. often say that couples who are in therapy are all in crisis. And to be honest, it's true. Most couples that are in therapy don't get there until they're in crisis. But this is the type of stuff that I think all couples should be doing, which is why I do it on retreats. Couples that are in a good... place, in an okay place. If we just focussed on improving some of these things, then we're not going to get to crisis in a lot of relationships. Okay. Thank you for being here. I would love to know if that lands. It was kind of like a really big juicy topic and I was wondering how I'm going to get that down into really casual terms that might be really relatable. So I'd love you to tell me. over on Instagram or wherever you find me if this one resonated with you. And thank you so much for being here. Bye.