Episode 21 - Abhi Golhar, Meridian 84

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My parents had no freaking clue what was going on.
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And I was trying to figure out my life.
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And at the end of the day, I was the only witness in a grand jury that came forward to put his ass in jail for 15 years.
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That type of stress, that type of pressure, it does one or two things to people.
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When your back's in a corner, the question is, are you going to come out fighting?
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Or will you let that moment of doubt rule your life?
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So the big question is this: how are entrepreneurs who aren't scaling tech startups or building lifestyle businesses from scratch doing good?
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How do acquisition entrepreneurs find businesses, buy them, and then create generational wealth while taking on less risk?
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Welcome to Surge Funded, the Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition podcast.
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I'm your host, Nick Loll, and I'm here today with Avi Golhar.
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Avi started his first business at the age of 14, and since then he has scaled up multiple businesses in healthcare and real estate, including leading the development of an AI-powered private lending platform which has deployed over$500 million in non-agency debt and equity financing nationwide.
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Avi is also a three-time nationally syndicated radio host on the Wall Street Business Radio Network.
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Avi holds a BSE in electrical engineering from the University of Michigan as well.
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And gotta say, I'm really honored to have you on.
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I know that you have great podcasts of your own and you've been on a lot of shows, but I'd still love to just cover your entire journey as much as we can on this podcast.
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I think it could be really interesting to start out with your origin story.
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Not everyone starts a business at the age of 14 like you did, especially a successful one.
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So I think that that could be a great place to start, just to get into where you were at that age in your life and any learnings you got from that experience that have influenced the journey that you've taken since then and led to what you are doing now.
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Cool.
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Nick, first of all, thanks for doing this podcast.
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I'm sure it's a super awesome inspiration for folks that want to go buy business one day.
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It's sure an inspiration to me.
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So a good job on it, man.
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Congratulations.
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Just a little bit about me.
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I grew up in like beyond small town in Michigan.
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So I grew up in Texas Township, which is a township outside of Portage, Michigan, outside of a smaller city in Michigan called Kalamazoo.
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That's where I'm from.
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Uh I've got two Indian parents.
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My dad's a PhD from Michigan, a master's from India, a bachelor's from India.
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My mom, wicked genius.
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I think she runs circles around my dad sometimes, uh, a couple bachelor's degrees for her and a master's or two to boot.
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And I grew up in a really academic household.
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You know, you think about your brown Indian family growing up in the 90s, very safe, academically focused.
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You don't talk to girls, you don't think about girls, you study for the SATs and you memorize the dictionary on the weekends and during the summertime, right?
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That's that was my upbringing.
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Uh so I have a really good vocabulary, even though I rarely, rarely get to use it.
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When I was in high school, I remember watching Barbara Walters interview this guy on 2020.
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And this guy was driving around the car that I wanted at the time, which was a Lexus RX like 300 or 350, one of my favorite SUVs growing up.
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And like, how does somebody do this?
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He was 24, 25 years old.
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He was going from one flea market to the next flea market, buying stuff and then selling it on eBay.
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And I was hooked.
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I thought, wait a minute, he could do this.
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Clearly, I'm better looking and way more intelligent.
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So let me see what I could do.
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Let me see if there was a pathway forward for the little uh entrepreneurship inspiration that I got from Barbara Walters watching uh 2020, or maybe it was 60 minutes.
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I can't remember what it was.
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Whatever.
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And one of the challenges, though, that I had was my parents were not entrepreneurially minded at all.
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They just said, this is such a waste of time.
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What are you doing?
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And to their credit now, we have an amazing relationship and it's not a big deal, right?
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25 years later.
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Uh that's what it takes.
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That's what it takes to get a little appreciation in a brown family, 25 years and a lot of hard work.
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And even then, they're like, Really?
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You could have done a little better.
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Thanks.
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Right?
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With where's the A plus instead of the instead of the A?
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Like, why did that happen?
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Why did this happen?
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So I went down the street, I one of my really good friends, his name's Matt Carroll, and he was my neighbor growing up.
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And I said, Matt, we've got to do something a little differently.
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Can we figure out a way to maybe run a business or something?
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What can we do?
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And his dad was always tinkering with computers in the basement.
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And my first computer was a zenith computer, dot matrix printer, black screen, green text with a really clunky keyboard and a five and a quarter floppy.
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Okay, that was my world.
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The first computer, the next computer that we got was a Dell, it was a Dell 3000 or something like this.
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Ran Windows 95 for the first time.
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Super buggy.
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I crashed it a lot.
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I had to redo the software, reinstall it, back everything up to floppy, used a hundred discs.
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And I realized something.
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Wait a minute, this is a commodity.
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This is something that we could sell.
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So at the age of 14, we started Max Technologies.
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Max Technologies was geared to help our neighborhood troubleshoot their gateway computers, Compaq, HP, right?
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All the computers that were out back in the day when CD-ROM drives were sometimes used as coffee mugs, uh, coffee mug holders, coffee holders.
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Like, you kidding me?
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This is not a thing.
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This shouldn't be a thing.
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And they broke consistently all the time.
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So we troubleshooted both hardware and software.
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When I was in, this is late middle school, early high school, we ended up doing a substantial amount of revenue, just kind of hanging out in the basement of our houses.
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That was the first business, Max Technologies.
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It was an early geek squad.
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Who would have thought for a 14-year-old, that's really impressive.
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I mean, for anyone to be able to make revenue like that, it's really cool.
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And I think that for any child, their parental influence is huge over them.
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And that validation you get from wanting your parents to believe in what you do is maybe even more tough if you're growing up in the sort of an immigrant family myself.
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I have that experience as well.
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So it surely shows a lot of self-confidence and courage to take that path, especially when you're younger.
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So kudos for that.
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Yep.
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So that was your first business.
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Clearly led to having good revenue.
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What was your path after that?
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Going to college, becoming an entrepreneur.
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When you were 14, did you know that you just never were gonna work, or when did you come to the realization that entrepreneurship was the path you're gonna follow?
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Yeah, I I kind of knew, I kind of knew like going into college, this was not going to be my permanent path, but I didn't really realize it until maybe sophomore year at Michigan.
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Here's what happened.
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I was the kind of kid in high school that you just hated.
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I would show up five minutes before, 10, 15 minutes before the exam, study, and then set the curve and ace the exam, and you wonder who is this guy.
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Everybody hated this kid.
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Everybody hated me in high school.
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Then I got bored of high school and I started doing dual enrolling at Western Michigan University, where my dad will soon be retiring from.
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And I took like all these electronics classes, I did computer science, et cetera.
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So by the time I got to college, I'm like, I got this.
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You know, I had 39, 395 GPA out of high school.
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I'm walking into Michigan with 48, 49 credits, almost a junior.
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How hard can Michigan engineering really be?
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Like, let's be honest.
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It's just another school.
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It's just whatever.
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It's not that big of a deal.
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Well, I got humbled.
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My first semester, I'm sitting in my dorm room, which is like this 10 foot by five foot disgusting shoebox with my gigantic roommate Mike.
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And I get a call from my dean, and my dean, Dean Munson, I think, he says, Hey, we've got to talk about your grades.
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And I said, Great grades?
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We got this.
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I've been ready for grades in this conversation my entire life.
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What are you talking about, bro?
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This is not even, this is tell me, tell me what award I'm gonna win for setting the curve this time.
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And he said, Well, it's a little bit of a different conversation.
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We need to talk about your grades.
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I said, Okay, great.
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I'm from a brown family.
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I've got, you know, every every Indian is a master of this.
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I, you know, I'm square rooting six-digit numbers in my head all the time.
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How bad can this be?
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He said, Well, you've done something that nobody at the College of Engineering has ever done in the history of this university.
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I said, Great.
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You want to tell me what it is now?
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He said, You've successfully joined the square root club.
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And I said, What's the square root club?
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That's kind of interesting.
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It's great.
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I can square root shit.
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Let's let's go.
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It's not a problem.
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He said, Well, the square root of your of your GPA is higher than your GPA.
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We're putting you on academic probation.
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So I'll save you the time.
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The only way that works is the number that you're square rooting is less than one.
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My GPA freshman year was 0.83 or something like that.
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It was like 0.83, 0.84.
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Ouch.
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Ego hit.
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And I didn't know what to do.
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It was like a glitch in the matrix.
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I was literally on the floor, curled up in the corner next to my space heater, not knowing what to do.
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So I do the next natural thing.
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I lie to my parents.
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They still don't know what my GPA is, frankly.
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But I lie.
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I'm like, yeah, I'm doing really well.
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It's not a problem.
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All the while I'm just so stressed out mentally, I couldn't move physically.
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Maybe we've been there.
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Maybe we know what that feels like.
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We're so stressed, it is we don't know what to do next.
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And we're sitting in solitude, kind of wondering, God help me.
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I don't know what my next move is.
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I've felt that many a times with capital, with teammates, with co-founders, with CEOs, with COOs, with myself, with the person I was dating.
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Like I just, what?
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Anyway, so here I am.
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I look like shit.
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I smell like shit.
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I haven't eaten shit.
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I haven't brushed my teeth in a week.
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And one of my good friends, Tommy McCaffee, he knocks on my door and he's like, Man, I tried calling your dorm room, you know, when you still have like um the corded phones, the spiraled corded phones.
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He's like, Nobody picked up, you're not picking up.
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What's going on?
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I said, Well, I just failed life.
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I don't want to do this anymore.
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I'm gonna pack up and just go home and admit everything to my parents.
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And he then gave me the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Cashflow Quadrant, Guide to Investing.
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And that's what set me off on the path.
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That's when I realized.
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So, to your initial question, long story short, that's when I realized Michigan engineering was nothing more than a way for me to figure out the best methods to solve really complex problems and provide elegant solutions.
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And I knew that the better that I got at that, regardless of what I did in my life, I could always fall back on that particular skill set.
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I never worked as an engineer.
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I don't I don't even know what that is.
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If you tell me what a piezo resistor is and you ask me to do some advanced algebra, I probably couldn't do it.
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But what I realized in that moment was there is a better path and there is a better way.
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And that way for me was entrepreneurship.
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Yeah, I think most people probably don't speak about it as freely as you do, but almost all of us have probably been through that sort of a humbling experience, especially if you're someone who grew up in a high-achieving environment like we did, and you're used to working hard and seeing that hard work pretty easily get you the results that you think that you should.
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And then suddenly you do get to a place where that doesn't happen, and it is shocking at first.
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But if you are able to work through it, I think it does really build character and makes you more well-rounded person.
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And as I think you alluded to, that is one of the things I got out of my education as well.
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And I wasn't an engineer, I was a liberal arts grad, but and what I've learned is probably even less directly related to what I do professionally.
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But what I did learn was how to solve problems, think critically, just work hard and get results.
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And I think that does help you with whatever it is that you do in life.
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And so if there is value to education, that's probably the biggest value that you do get.
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Yep.
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That and the network and your friends.
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If it weren't for Matthew in high school, and if it weren't for Tommy, if it weren't for Denny and Jonathan and all these mentors, both good and bad.
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I've had really bad mentors too.
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I had a bunch of failed real estate deals in Detroit.
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I trusted the wrong people.
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I ended up$750,000 in debt underwater and in the middle of an FBI fraud investigation into my mentor.
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That went on for four and a half years in college, while I was a full-time student.
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All the while I had a car, I was commuting back and forth between Ann Arbor and Detroit.
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My parents had no freaking clue what was going on.
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And I was trying to figure out my life.
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And at the end of the day, I was the only witness in a grand jury that came forward to put his ass in jail for 15 years.
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Think about that for a second.
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Like that type of stress, that type of pressure, it does one or two things to people.
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When your back's in a corner, the question is, are you going to come out fighting, knowing that there's a promise for a better future you just don't know yet?
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Or will you let that moment of doubt fester and fester and fester and fester?
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And then that moment of doubt turns into this big scary monster that you let rule your life.
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I chose the former, not the latter.
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What do you think helped you make that choice?
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Was there any belief that you had or yeah, dude?
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Like I embraced losing, but I also hated losing.
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I just, oh God.
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I needed to though prove to myself that I was worth it.
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For sure.
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I didn't believe in myself.
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When your friends don't believe in you, your brother is like, what the heck's going on?
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Your family has no idea, your girlfriend's like, I don't understand this.
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Your friends at school, in university, in college, your cohort members, they're thinking, well, what is he doing?
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He's always on the phone.
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You start to doubt who you are.
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You start to doubt your beliefs, you start to doubt your friends, you start to doubt the universe, you start to doubt the future, you start to doubt what you're doing here, your role, responsibility to others, and also yourself.
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You've got one of two choices.
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You can lean into your doubt and use it as a power tool, or you can say, I'm done.
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I'm going to just lead a life that's relatively average, and that's okay too.
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That's totally fine.
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I just wanted something different for my life.
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And I wanted it so badly.
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Like there were times when I forgot to eat.
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There were times when I went without water for like a day or two.
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I'm like, oh, wait a minute.
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I should be drinking water and not coffee.
00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:49.360
I should go put something healthier in my system.
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.440
But I wanted it so bad.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.240
And that's what I think is lost on people of today is we don't want it bad enough.
00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:58.480
Hard work is so easy now, right?
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.320
You got Chat GBT, perplexity.
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:10.879
You can reach out to anybody that you want on LinkedIn, harass them on social, put an ad campaign together that retargets them, gets in front of their face on every social media platform they go to.
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.879
Let's be honest, the hard work of today is very different than the hard work of when I went to college from 2002 to 2006.
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:18.720
I just grinded out, put in the hours.
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.240
But that's because I wanted to do that.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.600
And it's okay if you don't want to.
00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:22.480
That's totally okay.
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:23.440
It's not a big deal.
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.279
Buying a business in the world of today carries risk.
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.720
It's the reason why the SBA default rate has almost doubled over the last year and a half or two.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:44.399
It's the reason why people are looking for something to do that's a little sexier and entrepreneurship through acquisition search funder, private equity is like, oh man, I've got to get into this, right?
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:50.000
Five years ago it was real estate, or 10 years ago it was let me go flip a home and be like Chip and Joanna Gaines on HGTV.
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:51.919
But now it's let me go flip a business.
00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:53.519
Okay, cool.
00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:58.720
But are you willing to put in the work to be around for the next 150, 200 years?
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:07.039
Or are you one of those people that will just recede into the sunset and say, hey, I'm okay with X.
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.679
What was the dream or hope that motivated you so much?
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.000
Was it the freedom or the financial outcome?
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.080
What was it that really drove you?
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:16.960
Acceptance.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:17.759
It was acceptance.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:21.840
At the end of the day, listen, like Harvard did a study on there's a professor of happiness at Harvard, right?
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.240
And he did a study on what happiness truly means.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:25.600
It's not money.
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.120
Money helps.
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:30.240
If you ask any rich person, are you happy?
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:31.279
They're not going to not say no.
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.440
But at the same time, they have a different set of problems, right?
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:41.200
If somebody's making$50,000 a year versus someone making$500,000 a year, is the guy or the gal that's making a half a million dollars a year marginally happier?
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:49.840
Probably because they have the resources to go buy whatever they want to go buy, fly wherever they want to fly, take their family on vacation, first class, you know, you're just staying at really nice hotels.
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:51.279
Yeah, it doesn't matter, cool.
00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:55.279
But is that who we truly are?
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:59.840
Like, how are we defining what ultimately happiness is?
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.200
For many people, we get trapped in this concept of money.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:08.799
We get trapped in this concept of what other people are pushing out, what success truly means on Instagram.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:14.320
And now the new definition is I need to go buy a private jet and make a million dollars a month.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.080
That's the new definition.
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:18.720
Is that really though?
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.919
So growing up, mine was always acceptance.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:24.480
I wanted to be accepted by the teams that I was working with.
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.360
I wanted to lead teams because I thought I was relatively good at it.
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.639
Found out really soon after I had made that decision when I was younger that I was pretty dog shit at it.
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.639
And then I had to work at it, work at it, work at it.
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:36.879
And then I started to believe in me.
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.240
And I wanted to be accepted.
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:44.320
I wanted to be accepted not only in the circles that I ran in, but more importantly, I wanted to be accepted by myself.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.480
Now we all have a condition of, I feel like we we all live this human condition, right?
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:49.919
And I think there are two major faults.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:55.440
I think the first fault is saying, hey, now we've achieved what we thought we wanted, and we're going to move the goalpost.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.039
That's never fun.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.799
Then we never get a chance to really truly win the game of life.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.200
We're we're moving the goalpost.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:11.279
I think the other challenge that we have is we don't give any time or attention to the word I.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.279
We give no time to understanding who I truly am.
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:17.039
My name is Abi Golehar.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.440
I'm founder managing partner of Meridian 84.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:20.559
That's a label.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:22.880
I'm a son, label.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.839
I'm a business person, label.
00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:27.519
I'm a co-founder, label.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.359
I'm a business partner, label.
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.279
I'm a soccer coach, that's a label.
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:32.960
I went to Michigan, that's a label.
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:33.839
Who cares?
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.599
But this isn't who I am.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:41.279
Like this, I'm a big believer, and we're spiritual beings having a human experience, and we're not human beings having a spiritual one.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.519
So if we think beyond that for a second, we're all connected, we're all the same.
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.920
We just take on different physical forms and physical expressions of the universe.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.079
So what are we doing here?
00:17:53.599 --> 00:18:06.799
And I think that's become the inflection point for me, which is I enjoy what I currently do in identifying the right borrowers that have the right mindset, that have the right beliefs in themselves.
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.480
They want to be CEOs.
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.079
They just don't have the right capital stack.
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:16.000
Maybe they don't have the right post-closing ops teams, maybe they don't have the right due diligence teams, they don't have the capital to move it forward.
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:22.799
They're thinking, well, geez, I can't take down a five or 10 or 15 or 20, 25 million dollar a year company because I just don't have the money for it.
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:23.839
What can I leverage?
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.920
But looking beyond the numbers, who's the individual at the core?
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.079
What do they believe about themselves?
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.240
Are they okay to be vulnerable?
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.079
Are they okay to be accepted by a group of individuals that struggled with that?
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:38.640
And that was me.
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:43.759
So all of this to say, I think the first challenge is understanding how much is enough.
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:49.519
And the second challenge then, as we age, is what are we doing here?
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:50.640
And who are we?
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.160
Because I can tell you something.
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.240
I am not this, and I'm very confident and fully aware of that.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:58.400
At what point did you have this realization?
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:04.000
And after having the realization, how does it affect how you show up in life or approach this existence?
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:06.240
Yeah, it changes everything.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:15.839
So I went to India when I was in the 12th grade with my parents, and we visited a temple, and the guiding scripture in Hinduism is the Bhagavad Gita, right?
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:20.799
And I grew up studying a couple of different religious books.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.920
Studied the Quran, the Bible, and the Gita.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.119
And I did my best.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.480
You know, I I don't know if I've read every book through and through a bunch of times.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:31.759
I'm not a very religious person.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.880
But when I went to India, we went to a very specific temple and I realized something.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:36.799
My dad and I had a really interesting conversation.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.920
He said, There's a concept of religion, and then there's the use of religion.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.559
I said, What do you believe?
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:46.880
What do you believe about the Bhagavad Gita?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:48.559
Is it a concept for you?
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.160
Because you studied it, you studied portions of it, we talked about it.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.480
You went to Bible study, you went to the mosque, right?
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.079
You had conversations with different people from all different backgrounds.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:04.960
Is this a concept for you or is this something that you truly ultimately believe?
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:07.519
And that's when it changed for me.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:33.359
That's when I realized that one has the ability to rest within one's awareness, and by resting in one's awareness, we can have better outcomes because we are setting our emotions, we're setting our biases aside to understand what's actually happening.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.200
That's what I learned in the 12th grade on that trip.
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:38.960
And that influenced everything.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.319
For me, I'm not the best person to run a team.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.960
I'm not the best person to step in and be C-suite.
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:49.200
I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.519
I just build around my strengths and I fill the gaps with my weaknesses.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:55.519
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:10.079
But what I can also say is if we're in a really tough position and if I'm feeling anxiety, here's a really great summary kind of of this concept of resting in one's awareness so it doesn't get no, I think your listeners like, wow, this guy's kind of nuts.
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:12.640
But here's a really good example.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.960
Let's say you're in a very tense situation at work or in one of your companies.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:26.319
The fact that you recognize that the situation is tense is in and of itself a moment where you're resting in one's awareness because that's who we are.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:28.720
We're nothing more than awareness.
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:34.079
We just happen to have this physical body called Abhi Golhar, etc., and all the labels that are associated with it.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.720
And we are attached to the expectations of our lives and of others.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:48.160
But in that moment, if we have clarity in saying, hey, I'm feeling this weird kind of sensation in my body about the situation, I need to dig into this a little more.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:22:02.160
And I've just used that as my compass when working with individuals, when buying companies, when raising capital, when finding the right opportunities, when working with co founders, when working with With sponsors, non-sponsored funds.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:09.680
This type of opportunity doesn't come along if one doesn't pay attention to how we are feeling in the moment on a regular basis.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.880
And instead, we'll chase some stupid rabbit because we believe that we deserve X.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:15.839
Think about this.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:23.359
It's okay to have expectations, but if we're attached to our expectations, Christians have this concept of heaven and hell.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:26.559
It's what happens after you pass away, right?
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.640
You go to the proligates of heaven or you join the devil in hell.
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:31.200
Great.
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:32.000
I don't believe that.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:40.880
I believe that we create our own heaven and hell in the moment by being attached to the expectation that we have of a situation or of things.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.279
Quick example, and then we can keep going here.
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:50.480
Let's say we go to a restaurant and all of our friends, Nick, you and I are headed to a restaurant where we're about to go talk up some PE opportunities, right?
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.279
We're like, oh man, we're really excited to go try out this Michigan restaurant.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:54.240
It's going to be great, great, great.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:55.440
Everybody been here has loved it.
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:56.960
Google reviews are saying it's amazing.
00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:57.920
Yelp's great.
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.839
I mean, the guy is just fantastic.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.519
The chef is amazing.
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:02.799
And we've built this up.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.640
And now we're attached to the expectation that the experience is just going to be mind-blowing, right?
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.480
It's going to be so epically good.
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:10.480
But what if it's not?
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:23.519
In that moment, we're so attached to the expectation it's going to be good that if the experience is dog shit, we are creating our own hell by then telling all of our friends, don't go here, don't go do this.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.319
We're writing Yelp reviews, we're talking to the manager.
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:27.440
Like this happens every day.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.319
Imagine you get a new car and it gets scratched the moment you buy it.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:31.680
How does that make you feel?
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:35.279
But that's because you're attached to the expectation your car is supposed to be new all the time.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:39.200
But then more important than that, and beyond that, you're attached to your car.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:47.599
So it's very easy to do these things because the mind, in order to survive, because the mind is a survival tool, it needs to be attached to something.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:54.720
So just like a car, just like football, which is a religion to many people in America, we can say the same thing about religion.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:04.160
We get attached to the concepts of religion, but we forget what religion can truly do for us, which is show us the path to awareness.
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.200
I think that now keep it going.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:13.119
It's all like gems, but there's the saying happiness is equal to reality minus expectations.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.519
And I think that comes through a little bit in what you're saying.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:27.200
I think there's also this idea of monks or whatever following non-attachment and just sit there and don't do anything, but you can have that worldview and then still be incredibly successful in the world as you are.
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:35.039
You've mentioned that you had a bad mentor to start and ended up with that association, but also mentors have been really helpful for you in your growth.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:40.880
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how helpful mentors have been to you, what you look for in a mentor when you work with one.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.359
The one thing that I look for is obviously what kind of value can I provide this individual?
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.119
Because I already know I'm taking time and they don't have to spend any time with me.
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.279
So I'm already two steps behind here.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:00.079
But what I do look for is can they help me get from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence?
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:02.480
That's the scale for me.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.839
Unconscious incompetence.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.680
I don't know what I don't know to I know that I don't know something.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.880
And if I can get there, then the mentor has done their job.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:12.799
I'm not looking for the mentor to help me execute.
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.160
I'm not looking for the mentor to provide resources.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:17.039
If they do, great.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:18.400
If they don't, then that's fine.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:20.640
Just help me with a new perspective.
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:31.359
Help me understand this lens that you've been seeing through for the last 25-30 years in your investment banking PE experience as a principal at XYZ firm.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:33.440
What is it that you see?
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:34.799
How are you seeing it?
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:37.759
That's what I look for the most.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:40.319
One of my mentors is Dr.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.200
Arthur Laffer.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.119
He created the Laffer Curve.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:47.279
I fly to him, we meet, we talk.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.119
He doesn't have to take his time, but he does.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.079
I pay him for his time.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.920
I ask questions for an hour, and then I leave.
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:02.640
If you want to find a mentor, a couple things.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.480
One, find the best there is.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.480
Two, pay them.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.880
Three, don't take a lot of their time.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:19.200
It's unlikely you're gonna find somebody at the height of their game that will spend six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours working alongside you to teach you what you need to know.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:22.240
It's gonna be in super small bytes that you need.
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:29.119
And your questions will inform your experience with your mentor and the information that your mentor will give you.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:32.640
For example, yesterday I had a really great conversation with a young gentleman.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.119
He's trying to get into business acquisition.
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.640
He doesn't really know where to start from creating a search find.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:40.079
Like he doesn't, he's not there yet.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:40.640
And that's okay.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:42.880
It's it's not a problem, it's a good step one.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.079
So my response to him was have you seen the movie Coach Carter?
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:57.039
Okay, well, in the movie, Coach Carter essentially goes into the gym and he presents himself to the group of young black men in his community saying, Hey, my name is Coach Carter.
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:58.559
I'm your new basketball coach.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:10.000
And eventually you fast forward the scene, maybe about 30 seconds, and what he realizes is he can't teach the game of basketball until these young men are conditioned to play the game of basketball.
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:20.079
Very similarly, for me, it is very difficult for me to teach somebody the game that I am playing unless they are willing to be coached to play the game.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.880
And that level of conditioning is torture.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.119
Because guess what?
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.960
I don't give a shit.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.880
I had a young gentleman, he said, Well, I'm I want to learn from you and I'm going to just I'm willing to work.
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:35.839
I said, Great.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.680
You're gonna work for free, and it's gonna be 80 hours a week.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000
He's like, Oh man, I don't know if I can do 80 hours.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.119
I'm like, okay, great, then I don't know what we're talking about.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:46.880
What are we doing?
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:58.960
Now we did just open up an analyst position at Meridian 84 on a rolling basis, and that is a role that does offer compensation, but the hours will be just as long.
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.200
If you're putting in 40 hours a week, I'm kind of wondering why is it only 40?
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:09.200
When everybody else cranks it every single day, right?
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.160
Oh, it's cute that you take holidays off.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:13.440
Okay.
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:15.839
I'll keep a note of that.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:21.920
Yeah, and I think that that's informed from your own experience and how you became successful, was that you did put in that amount of time.
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:33.519
Maybe you could talk a little bit more about some of those learnings and how you got to where you actually are in terms of I know it was first real estate where you were successful and then eventually shifted over to business acquisitions as well.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:35.599
Well, I was always a business guy from the get-go.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:37.599
I used real estate as a wealth-building vehicle.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.920
So in my world, I look at two different buckets, and for me, it's an and, it's not an or.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.079
So bucket one is acceleration.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:46.640
And the second bucket is preservation.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.359
Many folks think that real estate's the way to go because they've been brainwashed to think this way.
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.680
Real estate is a great preservation vehicle.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.599
It's not a wealth acceleration vehicle.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:01.440
If I want to accelerate wealth, I'm going to buy businesses and translate a lower multiple into a higher multiple.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:15.039
I will take a call it a five million EBITDA, buy it for a five times multiple at 25, bolt on additional acquisitions, turn that 5 million EBITDA into call it 10 or 15 million EBITDA.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:21.359
And now my multiple increases from the five that I bought it at to eight, maybe nine, maybe seven.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:23.279
Maybe it's a marginal increase.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.799
It's unlikely, but let's call it an eight times.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.319
That's pretty significant.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:36.960
Now I'm selling an ecosystem for 80 million, less cost, et cetera, whatever the divisions are, I end up with more money in my pocket.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:45.359
So from a long-term perspective, one needs to consider wealth acceleration activities and wealth preservation activities.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:49.440
The reason I love real estate is because you can bonus depreciate the heck out of it.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:53.680
This is how this is the very basic rich person 101 formula.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:30:03.519
Let me go make a lot of money, go invest in real estate, bonus depreciate the asset, and pay almost nothing in taxes because of the bonus depreciation on my schedule K1 tax return.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.720
Like, okay.
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:06.319
That's easy.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.400
That's so easy.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:12.160
But the misconception is let's only go focus on real estate.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:18.720
I'm advocating for learn how to buy a business, learn how to add value, and then go invest in real estate.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.920
Nothing wrong with that.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:26.319
So to your point, the other learnings, I think due diligence is a really large piece of the pie.
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.079
Anybody can anybody can buy real estate.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.799
Anybody can buy a business.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:36.720
Question is, how are you underwriting it?
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:38.400
What's your underwriting?
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:38.880
What's your structure?
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:40.240
What do your spreadsheets look like?
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.200
What's your debt coverage?
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.200
What I mean, there's so many questions.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.200
And if you're listening to this and you're thinking, okay, well, this seems kind of interesting.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.119
What are some actionable steps that I can take?
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.640
I think one is get to know the type of investor you are.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:01.200
And if you think that buying a business makes sense for you and you haven't done that yet, don't do it yet.
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:03.039
Go work for a startup.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:14.880
Go work for a business where you have the ability to run an initiative that you can claim as your own, almost like an intrapreneur, being an entrepreneur inside of a business.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:23.440
You have your own teams that you can command, and it gives you a little bit of confidence, knowing that, hey, this is something that you can do.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:27.759
When I look at and speak with search funders today, many of them don't have the business experience.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:31.599
Many of them are just thinking, well, geez, of course, I'm going to put together a really nice slide deck.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:36.960
I'll put together a Wix.com website, go pitch it in New York or on Wall Street.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:42.880
And just because I went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Wharton, whatever, that they're going to give me a lot of money.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.000
And you know what?
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:44.799
You're probably right.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.920
They might.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:53.519
But if you don't have any business running a business, and if you have no experience running a business, then you will fail.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.640
It's just a matter of time.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.079
And you need that learning lesson.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.119
You need to fail.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:59.359
So fail harder, faster.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:00.720
It's a big deal.
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:04.240
The more mistakes you make, the more you get to learn.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:11.440
And so due diligence is one of the places where you have an opportunity to make a lot of mistakes, whether it's in a spreadsheet or otherwise.
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:18.319
The other piece of all of this is understanding your investment thesis.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.079
What are you going to go buy?
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:26.240
Are you going to go buy a salmon farm because you just believe that Americans love salmon?
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.599
Which it's not untrue.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:28.319
It's very true.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.680
I probably consume all the salmon in this country on a regular basis.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000
But what's your investment thesis?
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:34.799
Is it broad?
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:36.160
Are you industry agnostic?
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.680
Are you just buying anything and everything between five and 15 million Ebida?
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.160
And you see these websites, and it's just like it's just depressing.
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.000
There's no niche, there's no focus.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.519
And the team that's around it also has no experience in these niches.
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:54.799
So how can I take that seriously as somebody that's willing to fund and raise capital for these borrowers?
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:55.759
That's not going to happen.
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:56.880
So be very niche.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:58.319
Understand your world.
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:04.319
We've created an ecosystem and an initiative called Lafayette and Oak.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.119
So you can check it out, Lafayetteandoak.com.
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:23.519
And it's built and geared for individuals that yeah, you might be a McKinsey partner or McKinsey Deloitte associate director or some high level at one of these types of organizations, or you might just be an entrepreneur that has 10, 15, 20 years of experience in salmon farming.
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.480
But what you don't know is how to go acquire a business.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.519
What you don't know is you haven't really stepped into a CEO seat.
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:36.720
So Lafayette Anok is an initiative where you get to learn from my ecosystem of companies.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:41.440
You get to sit side by side along with the CEOs and have conversations with them.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.720
You get to come out to one of our retreats called Luddington Labs.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:46.960
Check that out, Luddingtonlabs.com.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:49.039
It's a retreat specifically designed for CEOs.
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:51.279
And if you're not one, you're not getting an invite.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:53.119
But you get to learn.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.160
You get to learn while in the seat.
00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:00.559
And if you need operations help, we can provide that.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.559
If you need capital help, we can help with that.
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:12.559
But expect to be humbled, expect to be vulnerable, expect to be challenged on your ideas of growth.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.960
The other thing that I learned from my mentors, both good and bad, is how do you find management?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:18.239
How do you find your team members?
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:18.880
Like, where do you go?
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:26.159
Find these individuals that are going to run your organizations because we're going to rule the world and we'll have a thousand companies in our portfolio in the next two years, right?
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:28.400
That's what everybody's dream is, I guess.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.480
But finding management, finding people that want to work for you, that's hard.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:44.000
Talent management, whether it's in the dental world, in the infrastructure world, in SaaS and technology, government contract, I mean, it's very hard.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:50.800
So you go to these trade shows, you go to these conferences, you have to spend the money, you have to spend the time and build your network.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.639
It sounds so basic, but it's so true.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:01.360
If you don't have a good network to rely on, then don't start anything until you do.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:06.000
Relying on only yourself is dangerous because you don't have anybody that's going to cross-check you.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:06.719
Sure.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.400
This question is related to finding management and also maybe going back to the conversations with mentors.
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:17.840
You mentioned that you don't have much time, and so you try to get the most out of each brief meeting with the mentor you have.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:30.079
I was wondering how you make the most out of those meetings, whether it's with potential hires or with mentors, how do you plan ahead and know that you have the right questions and the right approach to get the most out of that meeting and understand the person the best?
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000
We live in a world where information is readily accessible at our fingertips.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.159
Do your homework.
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.679
Do your fucking homework.
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:41.039
And I'll know.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:46.960
If you ask dumbass questions, you you know, stupid questions get stupid answers.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:47.920
And guess what?
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:49.519
There are stupid questions.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.679
Don't let anybody let you think otherwise.
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.760
Something else you spoke about was Ibita multiple expansion.
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:57.920
That's one of the attractive reasons to do ETA.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:02.480
I was wondering what levers you pull in terms of making sure that that happens.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:08.559
Yeah, one of the biggest levers that folks forget is acquire properly.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.519
Again, this goes right back to doing your homework.
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:22.480
If say you're buying in an industry whose historical multiple on exit, okay, this is when you build it up to say a 10 or 15 million EBITDA company.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:29.599
When your exit multiple says, say an eight, where do you want to be buying this company?
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:36.559
Are you going to be buying this company at seven or seven and a quarter times EBITDA initially?
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.000
If that's the case, then you're not leaving yourself a whole lot of room for growth.
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.920
Your cash flow will probably suffer.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.920
You're probably not going to get the best interest rate.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.360
You won't get the best terms.
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.199
Your warrants are going to be too heavy.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.679
Like it's just not going to be a good deal for you.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:59.920
But if you bought the same company or a different company at say four and a half times or 4.8 or 5, it's a bit better.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.760
And everybody forgets about the buy.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:05.840
Everybody forgets about the acquisition.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:15.840
The answer that you might get is well, we're going to increase revenue by hiring a CRO and a director of sales, and we'll expand the sales team.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:24.320
And as a result of more sales coming in the door, we'll be able to diversify our service lines and products and distribution warehouses and blah, blah, blah.
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:28.159
And we're going to compress cogs and we're really going to lean out the team.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:29.199
And what will that do?
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:32.079
That will increase efficiencies and that will increase EBITDA.
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:33.039
And you know what we're going to do?
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:34.559
We're going to use AI.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:36.559
Whatever that means.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:37.840
There's no plan for it.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:44.000
We're going to use AI and uh we're going to implement the right technology into this roll-up strategy.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.559
And of course, this is going to have a positive net impact on payroll HR and whatever.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:49.039
Great.
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:58.239
Okay, you can pull all these levers, but if you're buying incorrectly, just because you have a mandate to buy, that's a problem.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.519
Just look at what happened to the single-family housing market.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:11.599
When you take a look at invitation homes and they have a mandate to go deploy billions of dollars and buying single-family rentals across the United States, are they going to be making bad decisions on some properties?
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:12.079
Of course.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:13.440
There will be toxic assets.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:15.599
This is also what happens in the business world.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:30.559
When you're acquiring different businesses and you just don't pay attention because you don't understand the post-closed levers that you can pull or the pre-closed levers that you can pull to get a discount to the multiple that you should be doing in the beginning, you're done.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.400
Yeah, I think that it goes back to the diligence and industry thesis that you mentioned before.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:52.239
That if you know what you're looking for, you'll know better whether this is the play that multiple expansion initially is possible and you've been more thoughtful about finding the type of business where that works rather than just kind of a scattershot approach and then finding a business that looks decent and saying, okay, I'm going to put AI in and expand it.
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:53.039
So makes sense.
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:58.159
I was wondering if you could talk about some of the industries that you are more bullish on in terms of acquisitions.
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:05.039
And I know that you've been involved in dental, so maybe if you could talk about the ways that you do add value in some of these different industries that you're looking at.
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:06.960
Yeah, so we could talk about dental.
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:09.119
I love healthcare and I love core infrastructure.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:13.920
Think about like construction management, heavy machinery, manufacturing types of businesses.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.000
I like it because it's not going anywhere.
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:22.480
It's relatively safe from any major economic upswing or downswing.
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:32.159
When you look at something like healthcare, ophthalmology, urgent care, veterinary clinics, people still have teeth that need to be fixed.
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:32.639
Right.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:39.519
So one of the things that I take a look at for a dental acquisition is is it a general practice or is it subspecialty?
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.119
If it's general practice, great.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.440
What's the configuration of the office?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.360
What's the active patient base?
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:52.719
Is there an opportunity to expand the footprint of the practice from, say, four ops, four operatories, to 10?
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.280
And when we do expand, are we putting in another GP?
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.679
How are we optimizing the patient journey?
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:01.440
How are we optimizing the employee journey?
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:03.760
How are we optimizing the provider journey?
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.280
How are we paying attention to the different payer mix?
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:08.159
Is it just Medicaid?
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:09.119
Is it fee for service?
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:09.519
What is it?
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:10.960
Are we going primarily insurance?
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:11.599
What's that deal?
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:14.800
And then should we add in subspecialties of dentistry?
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:17.280
Should we do endodontics, oral surgery?
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:18.320
Is that needed here?
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:19.360
What's the competition?
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.119
Can we buy the competition?
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.360
Maybe that's a unique opportunity as well.
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:34.800
So all of these levers together work like a beautiful orchestra to not only increase revenue, but also increase EBITDA and start to expand the multiple.
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:36.880
I'm a big believer in healthcare.
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:37.760
It's not going anywhere.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.760
Professional services, not going anywhere.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:41.199
SaaS is interesting.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:50.480
I just exited a company last year called NPHub, where we provided, and they still provide, healthcare education services to nurse practitioners around the country.
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:55.440
I built a platform that took their clinical rotation journey from months to minutes.
00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:58.719
That's a pretty unique value add.
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:05.840
But we could probably be bolting on additional services there to maximize the value of this organization.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.320
So am I a big believer in SaaS?
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:09.280
Yeah, for sure.
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.400
I love SaaS, I love AI, and I love tech.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:19.039
The question is, is it good enough for the industry that you're serving?
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:21.679
I'm gonna stick to my two.
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:26.400
I love healthcare and I love core infrastructure, industrials.
00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:28.880
That to me is just perfect.
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.079
It's not going anywhere.
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:35.679
You still need food, you still need roads, you still need healthcare providers.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:41.280
It doesn't matter if you're an NP, an MD, a DO, a PA, an RN, whatever.
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:42.320
You still need them.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.199
You're gonna get sick and you'll want to go see somebody.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:49.039
You know what didn't get really disrupted during COVID?
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:50.320
Dentistry.
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:55.760
Generally speaking, from the dentists I've spoken to, they were closed less than two weeks.
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:57.599
During the whole of COVID.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:58.719
Less than two weeks.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:12.800
Why wouldn't I want to take advantage of that industry, especially then buying a business, a practice that's been around for 20, 25, 30 years that largely went unaffected because of COVID?
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:14.960
I think that's pretty cool.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:21.280
Yeah, the benefit of buying businesses now is if you see something that survived during COVID, it's probably a pretty good business.
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.079
So definitely good to be involved there.
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:26.239
You mentioned that you had an exit recently.
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:28.239
I was wondering if that's part of your thesis.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:33.440
Do you think long-term in terms of strategic exits, financial exits, what's your goal when it comes to that?
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:37.599
So before you even buy a business, you should know exactly what you're doing with it on the exit.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.280
Are you going to sell it upriver?
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:40.480
Like, what's the deal?
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:47.119
Am I going to sell this dental roll-up to like an Aspen dental or a Great Expressions or a Heartland Dental?
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:47.760
Mona.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:50.800
Are they the right buyer?
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:51.760
Maybe maybe not.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:52.960
Maybe, maybe not.
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:55.119
But I know exactly who is.
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.559
And I know exactly the multiple I want to sell it for.
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:02.079
I definitely want to sell it for north of 12 times EBITDA.
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:09.519
And by the time I'm done in five to six years, we'll own anywhere from 30 to 50 dental practices on the eastern seaboard.
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:14.079
My EBIDL will probably be anywhere from 15 to 20, 25 million.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.360
Right, so that's it sounds pretty basic.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.119
It sounds pretty boring.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.360
Sounds kind of like not cool.
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:22.719
But you know what?
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:24.960
That's pretty cool to me.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:26.079
It definitely is.
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:35.280
I think that's the right strategy, and it's much more predictable than some tech company that may or may not make a billion dollars, but it's like less than a 1% chance that it actually will.
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.199
So it makes more sense to do things that way.
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:37.840
Exactly.
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:44.000
Was there any other message you wanted to get across or anything else we didn't cover that you might like to talk about?
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:54.159
Well I'd say this if you have an inclination, you're listening, and you know, maybe you're identifying a little bit with what I'm saying, or maybe it's speaking to your soul.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.159
Say feel free to reach out, ask questions.
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:58.320
Again, there are stupid questions, so do your homework.
00:43:58.400 --> 00:43:59.599
I'm like my dad, you know.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.559
If you have a question, show me your work and then ask your question and then I'll help you.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:33.840
But I'll also say if if this conversation we started off talking about who we are as a species and like energy, I would say when you're just starting off or you're already on your path as a search funder, pay attention to who you're being with the people you're interacting with, whether they're brokers, whether they're capital partners, whether they're business people, whether it's your spouse, whomever, pay attention to that because that person, that energy matters.
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:38.079
Beyond that, as you scale, have teams to help you along the way.
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:41.920
First team you need, due diligence.
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.239
Second team, closing ops.
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.480
Third team, post-closing ops.
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:50.079
And last but not least, fill the gaps.
00:44:50.719 --> 00:45:06.079
If we're able to fill the gaps and get rid of what we don't need and fill in with really strong foundational, hey, this is what I absolutely need to get to whatever my goal is.
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:08.400
It's like I want to be like this person.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:09.360
Great.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:18.880
You live in a country, in a world, in a society where anything is possible if you have the right conversation and if you have the right attitude.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:24.239
My I think it was my seventh, sixth, seventh grade teacher, eighth grade teacher, history teacher, Mr.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.199
Roach, he had this thing on attitude.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.039
Just a one-pager on attitude.
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:30.880
And I kept this thing this entire time.
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:31.840
And unfortunately, Mr.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:33.119
Roach passed away.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:38.400
But to summarize what he always used to say about attitude is attitude can be dreamy.
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.840
Attitude can bring you a lot of despair.
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:51.920
But if you use it right, you can change anything that you want about yourself, any situation, and anybody else that you come across.
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:53.519
And I think that's so perfect.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.719
He was the kind of guy that, you know, if he was having a down day, he changed his attitude, and now you're having a good day.
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:03.840
How many times have we woken up in the morning, stubbed our toe, looked at ourselves in the mirror, and said, You look disgusting.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:10.400
Brush your teeth, the toothpaste falls on your actual t-shirt, and you're like, God damn it, this is just, you know, what the hell?
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:16.880
And you walk out the door and your car has a flat tire, and you've got to deal with that shit for like, you know, 45 minutes.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:18.159
Triple A doesn't get to you.
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:19.039
Now you're pissed off.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:25.760
You're sitting here in 98 degree summer heat in Atlanta or wherever, and you're wondering, okay, well, this day isn't going to get any better.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:30.320
Then you finally fix the tire, you get to Starbucks, and you're in line for like an extra 45 minutes.
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.360
They screw up your drink, and now you're into work and you're just pissed, right?
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:35.039
Like we've had those days.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:36.960
So just check your attitude.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.159
And that, guess what?
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:40.079
Is a form of resting in your awareness.
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:47.119
Because if you're checking your attitude, you get to rest in your awareness and change who you're being in the moment, not only to yourself, but also to the people around you.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.639
And I'd say last but not least, don't forget to love yourself.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.039
Don't forget to believe in yourself.
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:57.760
Just don't be a douchebag to yourself because that's really easy to do.
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:59.360
It's really easy to get down on yourself.
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:00.559
And I got down on myself.
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:02.159
I thought about killing myself twice.
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:03.280
I'm like, this is worth it.
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:04.000
This is bullshit.
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:05.119
What am I even doing here?
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:06.800
I'm in the middle of an investigation.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.480
I pretty much failed out of Michigan.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:09.199
I graduated.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:10.639
But it felt like I failed out of Michigan.
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:11.760
I had$200 to my name.
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:17.119
I was living in Lincoln, Nebraska, following a girl that didn't work out, but it's fine.
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:23.599
And here I am renting a basement unit with like a small little sunlight window.
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:34.800
And the only thing that was working for me was the secret that I got on a DVD from one of my mentors, and he said, watch this.
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:41.119
Before you decide to do anything else in life, watch this DVD.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.360
And it changed my world.
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.280
Again, just another perspective.
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:53.840
So before you get down on yourself, realize that people would kill to be in your position.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:57.119
Amazing.
00:47:57.440 --> 00:47:58.320
Very wise words.
00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:00.159
Thanks so much, Abi, for joining the podcast.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.039
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00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:16.960
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