Dr. Jeannie Fontana | Charting the Future of Safe and Accessible Psychedelic Therapies

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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall,
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and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
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authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
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leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
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and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
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is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
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helping you find alignment with the person you are always
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meant to be. Let's get started. What if the key
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to unlocking the future of mental health care isn't just
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the therapies themselves, but the way we choose to fund
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and structure them. I'm joined today by doctor Gene Fontana,
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who brings a powerful vision for how psychoicists is the
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therapies could follow the same path that transformed stem cell
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research in California. Together, we'll explore how the treat Initiative,
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treat treatment, research, education, access, and therapies could shape a
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future where psycholic medicine is safe, ethical and available to all.
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Let's dive in. My name is doctor Fleet Mall, your
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co host for the session, and I'm really thrilled to
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be here today. With doctor Genie Fontana. Welcome, doctor Pontana.
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Thank you, delighted to be here.
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Oh, we're thrilled to have you. I've been looking forward
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to this conversation. I'm sure we're going to learn a lot.
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So Treat Humanity and your Treat California initiative is really
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positioned to play a key role in advancing research into
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psychiaic assistant therapies, and I wonder if you could share
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just the inspiration behind this and just in reading your
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bio about your work and establishing the ALS Center for
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Excellence there a Cedar Sinai, I mean really large scale
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economics involved in potentially large scale change. So I know
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that your Treat California project is about creating a significantly
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sized fund for this research. So maybe you could just
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talk about how that evolved and how you think that
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might meet some of the current gaps and funding for
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the ongoing research and development of this field.
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Thank you. So I'll start when I finished all my
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training and my mother was diagnosed with ALS, and at
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the time it was a disease that wasn't talked about
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as often as it is now, and there are no
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known treatments, there's no known costs still and the life
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expectancy is just awful. So I was of course driven
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to try to find a therapy to help my mother
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and then those who suffered from ALS. So how did
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I do that? Having a background in medical science research,
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I wanted to build research programs, and there was no
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funding in ALS at the time. And simultaneously, there are
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human embryonic stem cells were just discovered in the late
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nineteen nineties, and so I happened to be working with
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a world renowned medical research institute down in San Diego
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now is the Burnham Institute, and there was a remarkable
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stem cell scientist there as well as other incredible scientists,
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and we explored using stem cells to derive a model
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and a dish. You can't take human brain tissues to
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create a model, and frankly, I was tired of curing
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mice and rats. I think they play an important role
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but infrequently translate to human therapeutics. So we were exploring
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developing a model of ALS and a dish and funding
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from the federal government, and George Bush in two thousand
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and two, for political reasons, put a moratorium on embryonic
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stem cell research. We're still confronted today with the pro
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choice issues, the political lightning rods, and it had a
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direct impact on me and my drive to help find
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a therapy to treat my mother and others who re
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suffering from als and so policy impacted research and that
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really bothered me. Fortunately, there was a force of nature
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here in California whose son was diagnosed with die and
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he was working with scientists up at Stanford and they
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shared with him that in fact, embryonic stem cells could
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potentially be a therapy for diabetes, and he too came
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across well where to get the funding to do the
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basic research, federal government stopped it. In fact, it was
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so extreme that if you were doing research in a
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lab that was funded leaving the light bulb was funded
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by the NIH, and you were doing embryonic stemsoll research,
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your institution could be threatened with losing its NIH funding
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in its entirety. So it was a very effective way
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of enforcing policy. But this force of nature said, let's
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figure out a way to create a funding agency and
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get around this federal restriction, and so he pushed a
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what's called a citizen driven ballid initiative. It's a mechanism
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by which citizens can come together and say, hey, we
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want our government, in this case the California government, to
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respond to our needs. And so we went and campaigned
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for this in the early time thousands, and in two
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thousand and four the Stem Cell Initiative was passed and created,
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the first of its kind in the world and the
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largest in the world, a three billion dollar funding agency
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dedicated to basic research in stem cells, but the focus
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of expediting the development of therapies, and so we weren't
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just kind of just fund basic researchers. We wanted to
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get therapies into patients safely, securely, as quickly as possible.
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And so we were charged with building what is now
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the infrastructure for the regenitive medicine space. And that was
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a wonderful like in the trenches experience that I shared
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for nearly a decade, working with all the thought leaders
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and academic institution leaders to develop an expeditious funding mechanism,
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and I think by all accounts we were quite successful.
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The money ran out in fifteen years, and there were
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two FDA therapeutics and nine breakthrough and fast Trek therapeutics,
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and importantly, about sixty compounds what we call in the
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pipeline that we're deserving for funding. We also created jobs,
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about fifty thousand new jobs in California and the country
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went out to eighty thousand. We created an excess of
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ten billion dollars of revenue to the state of California.
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So the four same force of nature went back to
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the voters in twenty twenty, during the height of the
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pandemic qualified for the ballot, which is a big challenge,
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and in twenty twenty the voters at California approved an
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additional five point five billion dollars. And so what you
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see today is that we created an independent state funding
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agency whose goal was to expedite research to get therapies
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into patients. We were able to deliver on that promise,
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and that the voters of California liked what we accomplished
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and continued funding that. So I go into detail with
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this model to share with you that this is the
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model that I think would be an effective pathway to
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take to create funding then very necessary funding to bring
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psychedelic assistant therapies to the public in a safe, responsible
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and ethical manner. And most people aren't aware of this
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pathway because in California, we were the first of its kind.
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We still are the largest in the world, and there's
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been one other state that has copied US that is
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in Texas, and they created a funding agency for cancer research.
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I want to fast forward and get into the psychedelic
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space with my work with ALS and I trained also
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at the VAI. Have fondness for our veteran community. I
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believe it's important that we take better care of our vets.
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And some science papers were brought to my attention about
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the treatment of treatment resistant PTSD using psychedelic assistant therapy.
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It caught my eye for a number of reasons. One
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was these studies were coming out of our top academic institute, USIANS.
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They were large clinical trials, and importantly, they were showing
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dramatic improvement. Up to seventy percent of the patients that
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underwent the psychedelic assistant therapy had dramatic improvement in their PTSD.
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These are people that have been suffering for over twenty years,
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who have failed conventional therapy. They tried all the therapies
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that are available, including SSRIs and talk therapy and exposure
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therapy and all kinds of things, and they don't work
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for those people. So that caught my attention, and then
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as I had the luxury during COVID to really do
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what I call a deep dive, I do due diligence
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before I get involved in the program, and then started
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attending some conferences, it became very clear to me that
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this paradigm offers a new tool in the toolbox of
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healthcare providers to meet and I met need and I
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just want to close by saying this is part of it.
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I believe these medicines are not for everybody, that they
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need to be treated with great respect, that there needs
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to be proper infrastructure support the safety use of these
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medicines and the beginning of the rest of the person's
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life in their healing process. So I understand all the
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political hangover from the seventies, eighties and nineties actually and
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that there are some real concerns I think for the public.
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But I believe that through good research, good safety, risk ratification,
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education and transparency that we can actually bring these much
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needed therapies to those are millions and millions and millions
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of people that are suffering from a variety of issues.
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What a transformation isn't just about thinking differently, but feeling differently.
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Side shows us that true change happens when we align
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not just our minds, but but also the neural networks
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in our hearts and guts. This heart mind connection is
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the key to deeper healing, resilience, and expanded awareness. That's
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why I created the Heart Mind all access, membership and community,
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a space designed to help you rewire your nervous system,
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and conscious life, I invite you to join us. Clip
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the link to learn more and start your journey today. Wow. Well,
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it's an incredible work and there's a lots to follow
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up on there. He Actually it was my own tracking
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of the research with vets that really inspired me to
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develop our first psychoicalsist at Therapy Global Summit in twenty
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twenty two, and I start boweling the work a number
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of years prior to that. And I have my own
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background with psycholics in the sixties. I'm a baby boomer
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and was an enthusiastic participant in the counterculture of that time,
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but I had been away from it for a long time.
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But I really started seeing this Reacher, Oh, this is
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really significant. Although I'm just curious the work you were
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doing at the Burnham Institute is that the correct name?
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Is that any similarity to the approach that worked at
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Rudy Tanzi and his team have done at Harvard in
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that team that discovered some of the precoursor genetic markers
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of Alzheimer's.
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Yes and yes, And actually through the funding of the
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California Institute of Regenative Menace, we had collaborative fundings with them.
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So the idea of bringing scientists together from their various
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institutions to help address this problem is, yes, we do that.
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The therapies that came out of that initial funding round
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with the agency that you established, were these stem cell therapies,
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in particular.
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With the California Institute of Regenitive Menicit. Yes, it's all
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funding for stem cell therapies, and it's still focused on
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stem cell therapies, but also modifications. You know. I think
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that there are really exciting combination of technologies, including crisper
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with stem cells. I think it's okay to start considering
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we're going to cure many diseases with the stem cell
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crisper combination, and then I think it's also equally reasonable
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to talk about we can cure some what we're called
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mental health issues with psychedelical system therapy done properly.
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Yeah. I mean, there are so many really fascinating advances
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in developing medicine, and the idea that they would be
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slowed down by politics is kind of disheartening. But your
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ability to speed up the process and support the process
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with these citizen ballot initiatives. I'm in California's pretty well
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known for these ballot initiatives. Some have been around taxes
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and other things. Probably some helpful people would fall on
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either side of some of those arguments, but it is
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an interesting approach to getting things done, and interesting that
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I was thinking, you know, other large states might polsuit,
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so it makes sense that Texas would polesuit. And so
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as you're envisioning this initiative that would create a funding
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agency similar funding agencies both psychedelic research, and I understand
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it's not just about the research, but also envisioning how
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to build the infrastructure.
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Absolutely, it is about building the infrastructure. You know. TREAT
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is an acronym that stands for treatments, research, education, access
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and therapies for psychedelic assistant therapy and other novel therapy
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to address mental health, addiction and pain. So in addition
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to running clinical trials, we already know there's good preliminary data,
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and I want to highlight that most of the psych
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true psychedelics, and we can talk about them, the psilocybin, mescalin, I, begain, DMT,
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and LSD. The four out of those five are plant
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based our fungal based medicines that at are not patentable.
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They've been around mankind for decades, if not tens of
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thousands of years, and so pharmaceutical companies haven't gotten involved
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because the financial incentive is not there, and also political
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restrictions made it challenging. So in creating this funding agency,
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we can actually look at these therapies that are not
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patentable and look at how best to use them, which
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patients are more amenable to, which type of psychedelics, and explore,
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you know, whether they should have one on one therapy
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or whether group therapy or there's some combination of such
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in their healing process. So that's kind of the research,
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and there is a whole like you know, universe and
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how to look at the different applications of these medicines.
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Equally important, I think, is the training of the therapist.
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So thus far we know we're not quite sure whether
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you can just take a psychedelic without having any kind
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of support around you, and you can have insights. My
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gut tells me that's not the case, but I want
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to let the data drive those decisions. But right now
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it seems like we have to have good therapists or
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facilitators who can educate the person as they're going through
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the process, be there with them while they're undergoing the medicine.
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But these insights, and then importantly, I think, is what
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you do with the information afterwards, and that requires training
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therapists to understand how to assist the person on their
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learning process. I talk about you are empowering a person
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to take agency over their well being. Well as an athlete,
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I was taught how to play a sport and I
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had a coach. You said, you know, I was on
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the team. You know, move over here, watch this or
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watch set. When we're shown how to do things, we
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I think can incorporate things easier. In addition to educating
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and even academically in the school systems about mental health issues,
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it's educating the public. It's time to change the narrative
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around how really to deal with anxiety, depression, addiction, other
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than our generation, which was, you know, you don't talk
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about it, and there was a bias against people who
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you know, couldn't overcome their problems. What's wrong with them?
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Are they not tough enough, or they're spoiled or whatever,
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you know, sort of a blame game. And then of
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course there's been you know, the elucidation that there is
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some genetic predisposition to certain things. And so then it
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also takes away, I believe, respond for the person to
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have accountability for their sense of well being. We live
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in a society if you will that sort of keeps
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us in a victimhood type mentality. You go to a doctor,
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they give you a medicine. You know it's a medicine.
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You take it, and you take something every day. This
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paradigm is very different. It's for a short period of
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time and then it's for the rest of the person's life.
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So education, both the academic way, the training of the therapists,
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and then importantly the public and then lastly developing a
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better access to care model is equally significant. I mean,
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we can come up with a great therapy, but if
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only the rich people can get it, I mean, that's
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a start, But we all know that, you know, the
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underserved communities are the hardest hit with many of these issues.
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And I just scratch my head and I say, you know,
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we can't afford not to come up with some novel
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therapeutics and bring it to the public and it's safe, responsible,
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and it gets us.
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We still don't know that much about the actual healing
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mechanisms of these psychic medicines. There's a lot of speculation,
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and we do know some things. Robert Harhart Harris has
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his entropic brain theory. There does seem to be some
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contribution to neuroplasticity, and then you know there's some suppression
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of default MO network, We'll let the brain reorganize. They
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have other types of experiences which can be healing and transformative.
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So there's a lot of speculation. And you also talked
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about the pharmaceutical companies not taking such interest in these
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classic psychatics because they are most of them derived from
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plants and that's not patentable. I know there are some
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pharmaceutical companies looking to see if they can create non
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psychaic versions of these, which the ideas would support neuroplasticity,
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maybe have some similar SSRIs, but not have the psychiatic.
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Of course, a lot of people feel, well, the real
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magic is in those transformative experiences, but all that remains
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to be seen. I tend to kind of fall on
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the other side, but I'm open go where the data
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goes another. I know there's one pharmaceutical company that it's
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actually trying to work with psilocybin and create a version
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of psilocybin that would be shorter in duration and have
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fewer side effects, which would mean that you wouldn't have
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to have the expense of the very long guided six
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to eight to ten hour journey maybe something sort of
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two three four hours and fewer side effects, which means
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you could have higher doses possibly, So there are some
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things going on like that. So I'm curious about where
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we feel we are with the research and what's needed.
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And also in light of the fact that the FDA
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we elected not to reschedule MDMA currently on the advice
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of its advisory committee, which a lot of us are
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questioned in the composition of that advisory committee, and some
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of it seems nonsensical, but of course, you know, the
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requests for better research is always a good request, but
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instead anyway, so let's spend a little time with the research.
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Where do you think we are, what do we need
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to do? How do we move the ball down the
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field with the research funding?
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Funding? Funding, I mean, the research doesn't happen unless you
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have funding. So that's why I want to create this.
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I believe state funding agency to provide the funding necessary
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to ask those questions. They're great scientists in this space
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who are doing wonderful work and there could be more
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if there was funding available. Very similar to the same
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thing I experienced with stem cells and trying to come
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up with treatment for als. It all comes down to funding.
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So I'm a big supporter of using data to drive policy,
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and we just don't know enough yet, but we certainly
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have some strong indications on what's going on, and to me,
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it just means we need to do more funding. These
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medicines have been in mand for tens of thousands of years,
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and I think we can say these circumstances, these plant
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based medicines mostly except that mosilocybin the funk space, they
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have a strong contribution to human civilization and society, and
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they've had over a long time. So Liz like, look
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at the data, come up with ways to safely administer
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them to people. I don't Again, I don't think everybody
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is amenable to this, and we have to decide. We
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have to do data to decide which people are amenable
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and which people aren't, and then start running these trials
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on larger scale, collecting information, tracking information over time, not
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the old paradigm where they're just in a clinical trial
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for a short period of time and then you lose
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track of them. You know. We can take advantage of
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all the technological advantages that we have, including wearable devices
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and apps that can keep patients engaged, and we can
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we can keep this information in a large bioinformatic database
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that we will make open to the public and save
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in a secure way, so that there could be researchers
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anywhere around the world that can decide to look at, well,
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maybe you know what happens to these type of people
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under these circumstances, and come up with some novel way
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of administering these medicines. Again, it's so promising, it's so
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promising that we have to do this. I mean, economically,
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it just makes no sense to me to keep on
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doing the same, same, same, and that need the billions
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of dollars we're spending on depression, anxiety and addiction and pain,
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what can go on and on and on. So yes,
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research is essential to move it forward safely.
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So I had a pleasure of doctor Rick Strassman for this. Straussman,
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I should say, and I'm finally reading his book Spirit
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Modicules that I wanted to read for a long time,
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and say, it's a great narrative and story about his
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journey through funding and research and the FDA and all
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the rest of it, and so curious and this little
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points of my ignorance around this particular element. But you know,
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there are things going on to the state level that
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have moved things forward even though the federal government's not
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ready to go there. For medical marijuana, recreational marijuana in
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various states, the decriminalization on plant medicines in Colorado and Oregon.
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There's a ballot initiative coming up where I live in Massachusetts.
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So I'm curious in California, is there a store state
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level of the FDA and would research be able to
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move forward in California even without the FDA sort of
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putting their impromoter on it, or is California willing to
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do that? I mean, you know this whole state federal
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relationship and how that impacts funding and research and policy.
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These are great questions. And again I'm going to say
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I've got beginner's luck because I was involved with the
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SERUM is the acronym for the California Instituto Regenitive Medicine
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Embryon Extempsil research was fayed to really prohibited, yet we
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were as a state agency able to work with the
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federal government on promoting research and bringing these medicines. We've
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got FDA approval on two of them, so there are
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ways to do it, you know, I again my experiences
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is showing a comprehensive program and working with the Fed
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government addressing concerns that we actually can bring new therapist
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to the marketplace. Now, yes, I would like to bypass
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a lot of the bureaucracy and the political polarization. Believe me,
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I would, however, because it's a reality, we need to work.
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I believe we work within the system. Let me just
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share with you one of the concerns I have going
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state by state following the cannabis pathway. And I appreciate
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each of us come to the world using our experience
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the best to go forward, and there are many who
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have used the cannabis model successfully. It's taken decades to
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bring these medico cannabis to certain states and it's still
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federally illegal. As you know, follow that pathway with psychedelics,
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I have a concern. My concern is that psychedelics, as
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you're probably well aware, are much more powerful and needed
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I believe to be treated with great respect. I have concern.
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When I was on my listening tour in California, I
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was with Todd down in San Diego and we had
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to trades over the homeless people down. You know, before
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we got into city Hall and I was talking about
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the importance of bringing psychedelics safely to the public. He goes,
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look out my window. He goes, you see all those
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home goes. They're high, they're drunk, and now you want
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them to be on LSD. And I was like, no,
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and I don't. And so I do feel that these
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medicines need to be in a supervised setting. I personally
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have five kids. I didn't want my kids to be
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able to go into my medicine cabinet if that was it,
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and grab an LSD pill like they can't ketamine or opioids.
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I'm not suggesting that there's not hypocrisy here, but I
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think because of the political history, the polarizing political history
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of these medicines, I have a sense how powerful that
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they are, that they do need to be treated with respect.
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And so while I don't believe anybody should be in
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jail for drug use or abuse, honestly I think they
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need to be in treatment program. I do hesitate about
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making these medicines legal and criminalize state by state without
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having the infrastructure there for safety. We saw in Oregon
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what happened the amount of drug abuse that was happening
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there in overdose. You know, you could argue, and I
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think reasonably argue that it's can comminate with the fentanyl
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lacing and the pandemic spurred, you know, wor seeing mental decline.
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I get it, but look at the backlash the state,
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and I think it could be a real problem. Again.
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I've also worked with this group of mothers whose children
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were experimenting with various psychedelics and for terrible reasons, ended
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up dying. They were not supervised. And what I admire
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about these moms is they're not saying, don't ever let
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anybody touch a psychedelic because their kids are going to die. Rather,
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they're saying, how do we do this so that it
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can be done safely? And then lastly, when you go
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state by state, it means that the people in our country,
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the other people in our country, don't have access to it.
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And I believe this is just such an unmet need
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and so many of us are suffering that we have
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to make this available for everybody in our country.
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Yeah, you bring up some really important distinctions there, and
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you know what has happened with the world of medical marijuana,
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medical cannabis. And then now recreational in many states, there's
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been kind of a natural blending of those movements and
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the commercialization and so forth. Maybe it works there because cannabis,
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for whatever some people think, is much more benevolent or
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at least lower risk than at least if it's not
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mixed with other things, lower risk than the psychoic medicines.
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Having said it, psycho medicines are very powerful medicines, and
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yet part from ketamine, which is not a true psycholic
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they are not considered addictive, but then of course they
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can be mixed with other things and it can get
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into this whole mil use. So obviously it needs to
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be treated very carefully. So maybe we could move into
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the world of training a little bit. And I'm curious
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about what your initiative, how you would be supporting on.
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So there are existing training programs for mostly for clinicians,
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licensed clinicians, and some for guides. Fluence as a training
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ordanation very involved in Californias Evitable studies as a graduate
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level of professional training program, they're open. University where I
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got my master's degree has a similar program I think
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to the University of Arizona under doctor Wilds developing one
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for physicians. So there is an existing infrastructure of training
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programs developing, and I'm curious about how your initiative, if
477
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.759
it goes to and you have this funding, would work
478
00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.480
with those and try to enlarge the landscape of that training. Yeah.
479
00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:59.799
So a couple of things I wanted just to finish,
480
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.279
and you know, legalization in DCRIM. I want to share
481
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:06.359
that while I think it's important that more research is
482
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.920
done in building safety product, it doesn't mean that we're
483
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:11.640
going to go slowly. It doesn't mean it's going to
484
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.960
go slowly. Okay. So part of the element, part of
485
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.400
the important element of psychedelicals therapy is having good facilitators,
486
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.599
and as you just mentioned, there are various programs that
487
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.519
are training people to handle it, which I think is great.
488
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.039
I think there needs to be some consistency and quality
489
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.920
control so that in this space. I do think it
490
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.880
is different than my other experiences of the therapy because
491
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:41.200
there is this I call it non sexual intimacy. There's
492
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.839
a non sexual intimacy that I've not experienced in any
493
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.759
other paradigm that I have, and I think that that
494
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.039
lends to part of the healing process, but it also
495
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:59.319
can lead to inappropriate sexual relationships transference of emotions that
496
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.519
are very very strong, and I think it takes some
497
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.319
real awareness on the therapist's part and the training of
498
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.440
that to make that in the forefront. And how we
499
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.799
do that exactly is something that needs to be discussed.
500
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.920
Let me share with you the model again with which
501
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.599
I'm basing how we would build treat Each of the
502
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.599
divisions the treatment's, research, education, access and therapies would have
503
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.279
their own leader as CEO of that division, if you will.
504
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.880
That would pull together thought leaders in the space. We
505
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.440
don't need to reinvent a lot of stuff, but what
506
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.480
we do need is pull people together and'll go gay.
507
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:41.680
We already know that this type of therapy works well,
508
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.759
and what are the concerns and how do we have
509
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:49.880
quality control and scale it. These are public form meetings
510
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.400
where you come together and then you come up with
511
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.599
a plan and then you start executing on the plan.
512
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.200
And what I am demanding to be the case in
513
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:02.240
this agency is that we have a plan that is
514
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:07.160
easy to modify with input that we get, information that
515
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.000
we get so in otherwids there don't want to be
516
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:12.640
going down this path just because it went down there
517
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.519
and then we find out that oh, something has come
518
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.119
up and this part of the training process does not
519
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:20.200
work well that we need to modify it. Then we
520
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.640
have to have the programming place that we can modify it.
521
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:27.039
So when you look at the therapists that are available
522
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.559
right now, and the idea of getting FDA approval of
523
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:34.640
these therapies start so that they're available to all, I
524
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:38.400
think we have to go on a more relied method
525
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:41.480
until we can get more information on how we can
526
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.240
branch out. So what does that mean. It means starting
527
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:51.440
with already trained professional psychiatrist psychologists LFTs, MFTs, and men
528
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.799
and so and so forth to start with that, and
529
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:58.519
then as we show that these medicines are safe and effective,
530
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.720
that we want to build it out more. There is
531
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:05.680
a paucity of therapists now in our country for mental
532
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:08.799
health care, so part of what our funding would do
533
00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:13.000
would be to pay for training. We anticipate creating about
534
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.240
two hundred thousand new jobs for therapists. I mean that's
535
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.880
the minimums that's what's needed in our country. I think
536
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:24.400
on untapped potential sources are the nurses. I'm aware that
537
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:29.000
the nurses, certainly in California, are so dissatisfied where they're
538
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:33.400
working conditions that they choose not to work as nurses anymore.
539
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.400
And it's not that they don't want to be healthcare providers,
540
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.640
so they just can't stand the system that's asked of them.
541
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.480
And I thought, what a wonderful way to bring them
542
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:47.559
back into the fold to be good facilitators. So these
543
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.359
are some of the initial ideas that we're sharing about
544
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:56.079
how we would build the necessary training and certification and
545
00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:00.720
oversight needed for the psychedelicas therapist.
546
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.680
This is such a really important issue and the idea
547
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.920
that you know, you want to great funding to be
548
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.480
able to do that scale is very exciting because a
549
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.839
couple of things in terms of the economics of going
550
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.839
to scale. Some people talk about non clinical guides being
551
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:16.720
you know, at least part of the equation, and that
552
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.839
may be possible. But then there's also the emerging kind
553
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.480
of you know, the or the existing psychic so called
554
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.720
psychic renaissance and all that's kind of happening below ground
555
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.279
and above ground and somewhere in the middle, and so
556
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:30.799
there was a lot of non clinical people, you know,
557
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:33.680
and there's even training programs out there for non clinical
558
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:36.920
people who are so supporting people as coaches and really
559
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.559
outside of the medical model side of the clinical model.
560
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.880
And my concerns with that, and I voiced this in
561
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:46.200
a number of conferences and so forth, is that these
562
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.359
non clinical folks have not had the kind of clinical
563
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:53.000
training that teaches you about transference and countertransference and all
564
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.519
the other potentials for ethical violations and just problematic things
565
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.119
which happens in the world of psychotherapy frequently enough now
566
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:02.920
we would hope it never happens, but even with all
567
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.240
the training, it still happens, because these are very intimate relationships.
568
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:09.119
And you know, I was I think disappointing that the
569
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.519
FDA advisor your community decided to focus in on that
570
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.400
one incident that happened six years ago in the clinical trials,
571
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.719
because actually this happens much more frequently that in the
572
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:23.480
world of psychotherapy. Now. Psychaic medicines do exacerbate or elevate
573
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.280
that intimacy, so maybe the risk is higher. But even
574
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.800
in the medical model, there are a lot of clinical
575
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.599
psychologists and psychiatrists who have not had much therapy training,
576
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.199
quite frankly, and yet they would be you know, so
577
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.360
it may often be the master's level therapists, the alemtees
578
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:41.280
and others who have actually had more real therapeutic training.
579
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.480
You know, it's not universal, but I mean there's some
580
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:45.760
elements of that. So I think it's really important I
581
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.320
think about doing that, and certainly within clinical work and
582
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.000
psychotical since the therapy. We're not talking about the broader
583
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:55.519
exploratory use of psychiatics by the population, but within this
584
00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:58.639
world it is really going to take a big effort
585
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:01.719
and bunding to train. You said the couple hundred thousand
586
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:06.480
well trained therapists, clinically trained therapists that are needed to
587
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:08.559
do this safely and do not create the kind of
588
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:09.840
backlash that could happen.
589
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:16.880
Yeah, So yes, And I have met some incredible facilitators
590
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:22.239
in the quote unquote underground and have great respect, great
591
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:27.880
respect for those who have dedicated their lives to help. Unfortunately,
592
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:32.039
there are many. I mean, in La, everybody calls themselves
593
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.880
a shaman, just like so there are those two and
594
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.679
so my concern is, how do you I call them
595
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:43.079
the wisdom keepers, they're true wisdom keepers. How do you
596
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:48.519
bring them and have them at the table advising and
597
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:53.960
informing as we build this The therapy or facilitator portion
598
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.559
of this, I think it would be stupid of us
599
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.000
not to bring the wisdom keepers to the table and
600
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.320
take advantage of the depths and breadth of what they know.
601
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:09.000
We tried to bring wisdom keepers indigenous people with genuine
602
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:13.280
deep shamanic training, and so definitely not talking about that world.
603
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.679
And in the world in the Americas and African other
604
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.760
places where there are shamanic traditions working with plant medicines,
605
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:20.880
by the time they're in that role, they've been through
606
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:24.840
a lifelong process of training right generation sometimes and they
607
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.559
may have, i think, have a lot to teach us
608
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.199
in the clinical world of the West, and it would
609
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:33.119
be great communications there. At the same time, there's a
610
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.079
soul and there are some there's even psychotherapists who have
611
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.719
decided to let go their licensure and work underground because
612
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:40.519
they are impatient, they want to do the work with people,
613
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:43.079
and they're probably doing really great work. But there's also
614
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.039
a bit of a wild West out there, and there's
615
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.119
a lot of who take on the shaman label, as
616
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:50.760
you said, and they may or may not have actually
617
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.639
trained with indigenous shamans outside the country or wherever, and
618
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:58.119
yet they're already training other people and under that kind
619
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.400
of guys and importure, you know. So I think it's
620
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.760
how do we really honor the depth of training that
621
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:06.639
is in the indigenous world and with a relation of
622
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:11.199
sacred polity and mutual respect, pull together the best marriage
623
00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.199
of that in our clinical training. And you know, we
624
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.320
can't really address it's hard to address what's going on
625
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.039
in the underground, but we certainly as we roll this
626
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:23.400
out above ground and try to reach people, we want
627
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:24.760
to do the best we can with it.
628
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:29.760
Absolutely, and I see it in steps or stages. You know,
629
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:33.000
we could make the analogy of climbing Mount Everest. You
630
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:35.800
don't just race up Mount Everest. I mean you prepare
631
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:38.880
for months and mynth you go to the stage one, two, three,
632
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:43.360
four before you summit. So I can see many ways
633
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.920
of progressing with this medicine and bringing it again safely
634
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:52.880
and excessively to those in need. It's pretty clear to
635
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.159
me that in order to do that we have to
636
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:01.480
do more traditional pathway. So psychiatrists, psychologies just MFTs people
637
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.639
and give them extra training in this space to start.
638
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:09.320
We will also I want to share run studies because
639
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:14.920
we have research dollars to look at the non traditional
640
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.760
facilitators see under the wisdom keepers and look at that
641
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:24.159
more ritualistic approach to healing. And really, you know, you
642
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:26.480
could make an analogy, and I don't think it's far
643
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:30.199
fetched at all. As you know, religion has done that
644
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:34.119
for society. We come to church, we pray as community
645
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:38.440
something beyond ourselves, bigger and beyond ourselves. Well, in many
646
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:43.000
my experiences, in many ways, that's what the underground facilitators do.
647
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:47.320
They help us stay in touch with that spiritual energy.
648
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:52.840
Some call it God, some call it spirit force, love, whatever,
649
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:59.199
but it's important. And how do we explore which people
650
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:03.000
we are more responsive to this approach and others? And
651
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:05.440
so I like to think about when you go to
652
00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:08.320
a restaurant and you have a menu and you may
653
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.000
not like anything with cheese in it, and I do,
654
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:13.079
and I want to be able to order my dish
655
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.880
with cheese, and you want your dish without cheese. And
656
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:19.079
so this is part of changing the paradigm with which
657
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:23.480
we deliver mental healthcare. What resonates best for you. So
658
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.480
when in order to get there, we need to do
659
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:31.039
the studies and it does not have to be long term,
660
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:35.920
but it's tracking these outcomes and it's following what happens
661
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:40.320
with these people under various circumstances with time, over time,
662
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.920
and then how to have a safety net for those
663
00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.199
people if they start crashing again, If you will so,
664
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:53.960
I very much embrace this spiritual side of this healing process.
665
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:58.360
And spiritual perspectives are different from different people, and I
666
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.880
think all of us should be to come together and
667
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.519
use whatever resonates most deeply with me as an individual
668
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:10.039
and you as an individual. How to do that safely
669
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:14.360
though in the beginning is going to require more standardized care.
670
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.360
Well, it's very exciting to hear that your initiative would
671
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.400
put real research dollars and support into exploring the individuenous
672
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:24.400
medicine traditions as well and how to bring these together.
673
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:26.800
It's very exciting, and I want to talk before we
674
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:28.239
run out of time here. I want to be sure
675
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.280
to talk about public education and also delivery systems and accessibility.
676
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:34.000
But just one thing that occurred to me as you
677
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:36.719
are speaking there, there might be something. I've been involved
678
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:40.360
in a black care hospice and chaplaincy a good part
679
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:42.960
of my professional life, and there might be something to
680
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:45.760
learn from the world of clinical chaplaincy. You know, although
681
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:47.840
most chaplains are trained to meet people where they are
682
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:50.519
and work with anybody from any religious tradition, but we're
683
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:53.000
not telling the chaplain what their theology is to be.
684
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:55.679
But at the same time they are getting trained in
685
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:58.679
basic clinical skills as well, so there might be something
686
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:00.639
to learn from that existing end infrastructure.
687
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:05.039
Absolutely, you know again, I think when we have money
688
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.199
and then bring together thought leaders to say hey, let's
689
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:10.800
look at this, look at the round, and then we
690
00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:13.800
can do that. And you absolutely bring up a great point.
691
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:18.239
So you know again, just need the opportunity to have
692
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:21.920
funding so we can actually address these programs, and then
693
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:26.039
I focus on how to do it cost effectively and efficiently.
694
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:30.599
I'm not interested in bureaucracy. Twenty years later, la la la, No,
695
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.079
let's go now.
696
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.800
Yeah, great. It's interesting coming out of the medical world
697
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:36.679
and the research world. You seem to have a strong
698
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:38.800
entrepreneurial spirit, which I think is what it's going to
699
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.320
take to get the job done. So I do want
700
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:45.239
to talk about potential delivery systems, issues of accessibility and
701
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:48.480
diversity and so forth. But in terms of public education,
702
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.599
I think it's important. In terms of psychicalistic therapies, in
703
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:56.559
terms of shifting, you know, removing stigmas not just about psychedelics,
704
00:41:56.599 --> 00:42:00.239
but also mental health altogether. That longer term, bigger product
705
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.599
to removing the stigmas around mental health, but the public
706
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.599
education around changing you know, being more informed and changing
707
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.719
uninformed attitudes around all of that. But then also in
708
00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:13.079
terms of the fact that there is this psychic renaissance
709
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:16.119
going on, and there is inevitably going to be people
710
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.719
exploring these who are essentially well, people exploring them for
711
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:23.559
their own spiritual evolutions, psychological evolution, personal growth, and so forth.
712
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:25.960
It seems to me that we need to take ownership
713
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.519
of this and create good public education so these citizens
714
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.679
can do that in a well informed way. They can
715
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.360
be educated and you know, a little bit the buyer
716
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.840
beware thing, you know, we do. And I love what
717
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.960
you said before. I mean, you know, I felt like
718
00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.280
you were singing my song earlier when you talked about
719
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.440
the ownership and how to shift out of a system
720
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.400
that tends to put us all in the victim position.
721
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.960
The name of my book is radical responsibility, So very
722
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:57.119
much how do you marry both individual and collective responsibility effectively?
723
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.519
So those of us in this movement, we need to
724
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.880
somehow responsibility for educating the public so people, whether it's
725
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.320
in a clinical setting or not, can make informed decisions.
726
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.760
Absolutely, come join my team and efforts, because this is
727
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:13.880
exactly you know, you need to come together and we
728
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.679
come up with ways to effectively accomplish what you just mentioned.
729
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.239
And so I think using the social media platforms that
730
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.360
seem to sway public perception right now are critical. These
731
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.119
are new skills. I mean, our generation is learning how
732
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:32.880
to use this. For the younger generation know how to
733
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:37.519
use it, well, I'm very hopeful I'm hearing I have
734
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:43.000
a gen zer. Their emotional lexicon, their terminology of dealing
735
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:49.079
with emotions stuff regulating is so beyond our generation. I marvel.
736
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:51.440
I mean if we were given those tools when we
737
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.039
were younger, and that they're doing it, you know, they
738
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.480
learn on a TikTok or you know whatever Instagram and
739
00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.679
they're picking up these little pearls. I think is wonderful.
740
00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.320
My challenge has been how to reduce all that I'm
741
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.639
sharing with you in like a fifteen second like moment.
742
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:09.719
I mean that that's my biggest time you've heard me talk.
743
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:11.599
I mean I can't even tell it, you know, And
744
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.639
how to get it into a hashtagable message where this
745
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:18.960
audience right now is all about a D D D
746
00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:21.320
D D D. You know, if your tension is not there,
747
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:24.840
that's gone. So but there are ways it's engaging the
748
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:28.280
younger community just inherently you know how to use these
749
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:32.079
platforms better, you know, having funding to do that again
750
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.400
through treat so that we can actually develop great content
751
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.360
because there's people are sort of randomly going on their
752
00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:41.679
own and putting up stuff because they think it's helpful,
753
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:43.719
and you know, it's a lot of it is, but
754
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.760
a lot of it's not. So having some kind of
755
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:50.559
stamp of approval or that I think is important.
756
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:56.840
Absolutely. Let's talk about delivery systems and equitable access and
757
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:59.559
diversity and so forth. You know, there's been a lot
758
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:03.000
of discu from MAPS and others talking about the need
759
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.199
we need to train this huge number of therapists as
760
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:08.840
you mentioned as well, but there's also ideas of experimenting
761
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.239
with group therapy models, whether it was the actual sessions
762
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:14.880
would be group or at least the integrationy integration groups.
763
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.679
The clinical trials the way they're done is not scalable
764
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.360
as we know, and would be incredibly expensive and we
765
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:22.800
don't want this to be a type of healing it's
766
00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:26.199
only available to an elite. Maybe it's currently the situation
767
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:29.239
to would agree. So I'm curious about initial ideas you
768
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.800
have about scalability and delivery systems, as well as how
769
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:34.840
your initiative would fund about figuring this out. Figuring out
770
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.000
there may be ideas on the horizon that we haven't
771
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:38.719
even thought of yet to make all this work.
772
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.199
That's right, So yes to all of the above, And
773
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:43.920
it's easy for me to go back into the research part.
774
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:48.079
So we mentioned earlier we would have money to explore
775
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:53.079
how person does through group therapy versus one on one therapy,
776
00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:55.719
and maybe it's a combination. Maybe a person needs to
777
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.760
come to this medicine space and they are more comfortable
778
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.679
with one on one therapy and they involve growing. Then
779
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:05.719
they become in a group therapy or even ceremonial therapy,
780
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.039
and or maybe they need to go back to one
781
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:11.960
and one, depending upon the evolution of their emotional journey,
782
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.199
if you will, of healing. We know that it's usually
783
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:18.519
not just one issue people. Depression is not usually one thing,
784
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:23.199
or complex PTSD is not one trauma, addiction is not
785
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:26.159
usually one thing. There are multiple things that we as
786
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:30.400
I think empowering the person to have agency over one's
787
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:32.840
well being the rest of their lives. So we have
788
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:35.119
to have a system that can support that. How to
789
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.639
do that, okay, yet to be determined. Right, because this
790
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:41.800
is a new paradigm that we're introducing. I have a
791
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:46.519
strong inkling these are all inklings, is that community is important.
792
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:48.760
So a person will come with an issue let's just
793
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:55.559
say depression, suicidality, and undergoes psychedolgicalsis therapy and has dramatic
794
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.159
improvement and within that short period of time called three months,
795
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:01.559
it's like wow, wut and now they're kind of on
796
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.199
their path, right, and these medicines for them that might
797
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:07.440
be the one and done, or it might be they
798
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.880
need a booster of six months or a year or
799
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:12.719
every five years yet to be determined. We have to
800
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:18.239
have infrastructure in place to support the person, so how
801
00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:21.719
to scale that, how to scale that and scale it
802
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:27.280
cost effectively are important questions. One approach that is not
803
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:32.360
taken is the cost of not doing anything. Okay, let's
804
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:36.760
take the example of opioid use disorder in California, and
805
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:40.840
these numbers are hard to pinpoint. But on average it
806
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:45.000
was about ninety eight billion dollars. And if we can
807
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:49.599
treat ten percent of those people, just ten percent would
808
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:54.159
save nine billion dollars. Okay, how would these moneies be allocated?
809
00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:58.000
So the money's instead of spending ninety eight billion dollars
810
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.840
on treatment paradigms that aren't effective, we could spend a
811
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.119
quarter of that or half of that on paradigms that
812
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:12.000
are including community outreach programs where going into the different community,
813
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:15.320
because each community has its own specific need, we go
814
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.719
to those community leaders and help build programs around those
815
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.920
specific needs. This is not reinventing the wheel. They are
816
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:26.079
programs that have done that. But what we would do
817
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:31.360
is pull the best of these programs together, discuss the
818
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:34.360
pros and cons of them and how to execute on them.
819
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:39.159
Start executing on them to decide this program is working
820
00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:44.440
or it's not working, and why using that information to modify.
821
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:48.119
So these are some ideas. It's like we're building something
822
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:49.719
that we don't know what it is yet. I have
823
00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:54.639
no no sense that we know exactly what to do.
824
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.519
I mean we don't, we can't possibly. But what I
825
00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:01.800
do have confidence in is if our goal is to
826
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:07.519
treat people, improve their outcomes, make it cost effective and
827
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:12.679
accessible to all, and we focus on that trifecta that
828
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.639
we can solve whatever problems come up. Only caveat that
829
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:20.119
I'm concerned about there is there is sometimes this societal
830
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:24.280
backlash to change. If there's change, it means you're take
831
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.719
you may be perceived as you're taking something away from
832
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:31.639
somebody to give it to somebody else, and that strikes
833
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:36.559
a very primitive response in humans. We see it today
834
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:41.960
in our political system. And so how to navigate those perceptions,
835
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.880
I think is probably the most difficult and challenging aspect
836
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:49.440
of bringing this to the public safely and responsibly.
837
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:52.559
Well as well as the public and cultural attitudes and
838
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:55.800
societal attitudes and so forth. If you're talking about ninety
839
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:58.480
eight billion dollars and starting to shift those resources, there's
840
00:49:58.559 --> 00:49:59.920
economic interest involved.
841
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:03.000
So I want to just point out as a female
842
00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:08.440
leader to come and lead as a strong feminine leader
843
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:10.719
who Now I'm not trying to act like a man.
844
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:14.599
I've got you know, guys are great, but to lead
845
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:21.760
with inclusivity, with aspirations and focusing on helping and serving
846
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:25.719
each other. And I don't just mean idealistic pion A Sky.
847
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:30.320
I mean, this is our reality, and I would love
848
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:36.400
the opportunity to bring together change makers and roll out
849
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:40.480
a novel way of delivering mental health care. And if
850
00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:43.840
we start first in California and then it rolls out
851
00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:47.639
to the rest of the country, this is a paradigm shift.
852
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:53.360
And this is putting the accountability towards as a gift
853
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:58.239
to the individual to take ownership, and it's empowering for
854
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:02.559
that person and providing that support systems and safety nets
855
00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:04.360
that are needed to do so well.
856
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:07.000
California certainly has led the way in many fields and
857
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:11.800
standards and regulatory in many different fields. There's often repped
858
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:14.880
the California standard, right, It's referenced in so many different fields.
859
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:18.559
So I'm curious. Just a couple more questions. One is
860
00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:21.119
I'm wondering, is there anything we can learn from I
861
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.320
don't know what's going on in California. I think it's
862
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:28.719
pretty uniform nationally, I think, but with ketemenissisted therapy, ketamine
863
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.440
is used off legally, off label for in combination with cyclotherapy,
864
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.480
and I think there's been a proliferation of ketemine assisted
865
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:39.719
therapy clinics and individual practitioners and there's also the infusion
866
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:43.519
clinics where people are not getting the therapy and are benefiting.
867
00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:45.920
Some people are benefiting with lowering depression. People have different
868
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:49.559
views about that. But anyway, we have this infrastructure out there. Let's,
869
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:52.320
you know, maybe lead the infusion clinics society for a moment,
870
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.000
but the proliferation of ketamine assisted therapy clinics and so forth,
871
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.760
and I wonder how that is in California, whether there's
872
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:00.239
anything to build on there.
873
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.880
Or I have to disclose my bias. I have a
874
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:10.119
bias against this model. I am aware of patients who
875
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:13.880
have benefited from ketymine, and so I support that. But
876
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:18.280
this financial model where a patient come in, they spend anywhere,
877
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:20.559
at least in Los Angeles, you know, five hundred to
878
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:24.239
one thousand dollars. They go in, they get some you know,
879
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:27.480
the medicine, there's no therapy during it, and then they leave.
880
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:31.360
While I appreciate the world is structured around finances and
881
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.760
financial extentives, I struggle with the motivation of this. So
882
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:40.840
and then you know, the bad outcomes get amplified, so
883
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:44.400
and then it pushes everything back and again. I like
884
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:47.159
people to have choice, and I like people to be
885
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.440
aware and have safety, but I think there needs to
886
00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:52.239
be more infrastructure in place to support the safety of this.
887
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:54.719
I do want to add my other biases. I think
888
00:52:54.920 --> 00:53:00.880
ketamine will be dramatically impactful with acute suicidality. Right now,
889
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:04.079
a patient comes in with suicidal ideation and plan and
890
00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:06.159
they put on a seventy two hour hold to put
891
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.280
on SSRIs, it's think two to six weeks, and you
892
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:11.760
know where some of the studies that I've read about
893
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.000
ketamine and these circumstances can be life altering. So I'd
894
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:20.079
like to see that used more regalously as well as
895
00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:22.800
perhaps even with first responders as they come in with
896
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:26.000
people who are traumatized and just take the edge off
897
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:26.880
for them a little bit.
898
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.679
So I agree with you, Rod, I mean my bias
899
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.280
is similar to yours in terms of the infusion clinics
900
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:35.280
and even war SERTs. There also has been a proliferation
901
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:39.239
of psychotherapy ketemine assistant psychotherapy practices and clinics. So that's
902
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.800
why I was really asking about whether it's something within
903
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:46.239
that existing field of professionals, licensed clinicians we're delivering ketemine
904
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:48.760
assistant psychotherapy. Where there's anything we can learn there and
905
00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:49.360
build on there.
906
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:53.239
Sure, and it's new that there's no centralized way of
907
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:58.440
collecting information, but yes, people getting help and if that
908
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:01.960
is an effective way to do it, absolutely, So where.
909
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:04.320
Is your initiative stand? When will this go on the ballot?
910
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:06.199
And so where does all this stand?
911
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:10.599
Okay? So we launched our initiative in twenty twenty two
912
00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:14.880
in California. Unfortunately, so as citizen driven ballot initiative is
913
00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:18.760
other than it costs anywhere from twenty to thirty million
914
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:23.119
dollars to qualify for the ballot, which is not chump
915
00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:26.760
change for a lot of people. So we started and
916
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.639
we started raising some money and it was pretty great.
917
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:32.840
And when we received and we ran out of funding,
918
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.280
long and short, as we ran out of funding, part
919
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.840
of the process is we submit the legislation to the
920
00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:44.000
Attorney General's office. The Attorney General's office then has supposedly
921
00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:48.360
no influence from any other people and writes the language
922
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:51.400
that the voters will see on the ballot. And in
923
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:54.519
our particular case, our language was, I thought, put in
924
00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:59.880
the most negative light, terrible. It started off with cont
925
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.719
institutional amendment to create funded by bonds to create Psychedelic
926
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:11.559
Research Agency and then the first sentence was using LSD,
927
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:16.000
you know, academy, and nothing about the unit need and
928
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.960
the costs that we could potentially say. So when we
929
00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:25.199
polled that language, we found that the voters still approved,
930
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.840
strongly approved funding to go for research and to safely
931
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.920
bring these medicines out to the citizens. What they did
932
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:36.119
not support was they didn't believe a government agency could
933
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.400
spend the money wisely. And so while I agree, I mean,
934
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:41.840
that's why I'm doing this, because I agree that the
935
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:44.639
government's not spending our money wisely, they're not aware that
936
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:48.360
this is actually an independent state agency and we will
937
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:53.880
be with boards of entrepreneur people, problem solving people, and
938
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:57.039
so rightly, you know, the citizens didn't want to spend
939
00:55:57.079 --> 00:56:00.840
additional five billion dollars on yet another care program, but
940
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:03.559
that doesn't seem to be changing anything, and the homelessness
941
00:56:03.559 --> 00:56:07.679
we see around California is just staggering. So we withdrew
942
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:11.679
from the campaign, but I have not stopped, and I
943
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:17.000
continue to explore different strategies to create a funding agency.
944
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.519
And depending upon the election outcome, what would be ideal
945
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:22.960
is if I could go to the federal government and
946
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:28.000
establish an independent agency through the federal government, not dissimilar
947
00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:29.960
to what we do on the state level. Of course,
948
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.760
depending upon who wins the election, may be more manaval
949
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:36.039
to this than not. And if there continues to be
950
00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:40.079
support that I'm getting, I will probably run another citizen
951
00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:43.000
of a ballot initiative in twenty twenty six.
952
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.000
So roising up funds to do those kinds of bel
953
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:48.920
initiatives which many people were aware of. There's been many
954
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:52.320
of them in California. Do you do grassroots fundraising to
955
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:53.400
raise that kind of money?
956
00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:57.360
Yes, I did you know. The way I've been successful
957
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.960
in life is I usually find stakeholder that have some
958
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:04.719
significant wealth, and then they make some phone calls with
959
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:07.440
their friends and say, hey, I think this is something meaningful,
960
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:12.159
and is somebody who's been touched personally by either suicide
961
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:17.199
or addiction or depression or end pain, somebody who's had
962
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:21.679
a personal connection or they support the military, that come
963
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:25.159
in and be some lead donors, and then we fill
964
00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:29.519
in with the public's support. So that's still my approach,
965
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:31.840
but I'm open if any of your listeners have any
966
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:33.800
ideas for me and how best approaches.
967
00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:37.280
I'm all ears absolutely well that personal connection is so important.
968
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:41.559
I helped start the first hospice program in a federal prison. Yeah,
969
00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:44.880
after submitting proposal after proposal, it was finally when a
970
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:48.480
new associate warden over programs came into that institution who
971
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:51.519
recently had an experience with his own family and hospice
972
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:54.400
is because of that personal thing. He said, let's get
973
00:57:54.519 --> 00:57:58.119
to surpried. I'm also remembering being at the Psycholic Science
974
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.719
Conference in Denver and last here and listening to Governor
975
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:06.199
Rick Perik, former governor of Texas, like conservative Republican governor,
976
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:09.559
but so passionate about veterans and supporting detriments in their
977
00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:11.960
health and willing to bow the science and the data
978
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.480
that he ended up becoming a supporter of this research.
979
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:18.760
And I use that example a lot. Not only a supporter,
980
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:21.400
but he went to his legislation and created one hundred
981
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:25.519
million dollar fund to continue research for psychedelics and new
982
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:29.639
treatment of PTSD in the military. So yes, and so
983
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.559
you know, the work that you're doing here, bringing it
984
00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:36.280
to people's awareness is so important. I found that on
985
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:39.400
my sort of campaign listening trail, I ran into two
986
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:44.119
types of people. One that were aware of psychedelics and
987
00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.199
most that were not. And so I had to spend
988
00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.000
quite a bit of time explaining about, you know, the
989
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.719
good science about this that no I'm not you know,
990
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.320
the Timothy Leary take, you know, tune in, drop out,
991
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.800
all that, and so there's a lot of education to
992
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:01.519
share with people country and at last they want to
993
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:04.920
do share that. In the last five years, the shift
994
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:09.000
of awareness of certainly psilocybin has been dramatic. There was
995
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:12.800
a poll that was done in twenty seventeen nationwide and
996
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:16.719
twenty percent of people supported research and psychedelics, and that
997
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:20.679
in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty was
998
00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:24.920
went up to eighty percent, and that was both Republicans
999
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:28.400
and Democrats. One of my biggest donors, my first donor
1000
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:33.480
was a very conservative Republican from Florida. Was really very
1001
00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:36.840
uplifting for me to think that I got a conservative
1002
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:40.199
Republican from Florida to be one of my first lead donors.
1003
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:43.440
Well, very It's wonderful when some of these human, very
1004
00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:47.480
human issues can bring people together across political divides. I've
1005
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:49.760
been very involved in criminal justice reform, and there has
1006
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.400
been criminal justice reform issues that have brought people together
1007
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:55.719
from both sides, from the humanitarian angle, but also from
1008
00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:58.519
just the economics of what we're doing as a work, right,
1009
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:01.480
and so these absolutely together, absolutely.
1010
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:04.559
Yeah, absolutely support I support that, and you know, I
1011
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.199
feel that addressing the mental health issues sort of the
1012
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.920
foundation of it. I mean, you can talk about, you know,
1013
01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:13.280
somebody has some trauma in their lives, they don't allow
1014
01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:15.079
to deal with it, They become an addict, and then
1015
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.360
they have to steal, and they crazy, and then they're
1016
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:20.159
in jail. There's all many different pathways you can go
1017
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.840
down to, but I think if we can address the
1018
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:27.800
underlying cause, which is oftentimes how one deals with their
1019
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:31.000
emotional trauma in life. And I don't just mean rape
1020
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:33.559
or assault, but you know, I don't feel loved, I
1021
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:35.840
don't feel like I fit in. Are these things that
1022
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:39.320
end up dictating how we act in the world.
1023
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:43.519
So, Doctor fun Dana's just been incredibly illuminating. I really
1024
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:45.760
applaud your work and wish you all the best with
1025
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:48.239
their work, and I hope you get momentum with was
1026
01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:51.079
initiative again. It just makes so much sense and so needed,
1027
01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:53.760
and we hope. I mean, everything you're talking about is
1028
01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:56.199
the educational part is very much the mission of this summit.
1029
01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:58.840
So thank you for being and I really wish you
1030
01:00:58.880 --> 01:00:59.400
all the best.
1031
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:02.559
Thank you really enjoying myself and congratulations to you and
1032
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:03.679
all the good work you're doing.
1033
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:06.800
Thank you too. Thank you for joining me on the
1034
01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:11.199
Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember, real change happens when we commit
1035
01:01:11.239 --> 01:01:14.280
to our growth, face our challenges with compassion, and stay
1036
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:17.639
open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful, I
1037
01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:20.440
encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the message
1038
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:24.280
of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present, and
1039
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:25.920
stay true to you. Take care